IS christianity can influence politics in a HEALTHY WAY- POPE BENEDICT is also a ruler- what you think.

Christianity should stay out of politics. Politics is a dirty place for Christ's message to be proclaimed. There is a differece, which must be considered and understood, from living as a Christian and wearing it on your sleeve. Evangelism, unfortunately, has taken a bad rap from people who act better than others because they happen to believe.

This nation was made to let people have free will. I am a proud and faithful Lutheran. I live it. I hope others see it. I hope others feel empowered by it. Its not speedy and is not outwardly rewarding, but it is what is right.

True Christians should feel disgusted by these prosyletizing fools who go out "proclaiming the word" but then don't live it themselves. Its not an easy thing to do, but its worth trying at least.

Christianity is a way of life, and a Christian person in office is still a Christian, And of course Christians has as much right as a gun owner or a pot smoker or a tobacca grower to have a lobby group to be sure their rights are protected.

And Christianity in the US has always influenced political issues, not controlled but had an effect since the US was formed. It has only been more recently that people have tried to remove Christianity from the government.

There have been two glorious hoaxes over the course of time. The first was, as the Roman writer Horace said (Ill translate!) It is sweet and proper to die for ones country. (that batte can be saved for another day) The other is the idea that a "Christian" nation is the right thing. Christianity was founded as a sect of believers, not a hierarchical set of dogmas. Most of these dogmas were created to coincide with pagan holidays and to help the HRE and other purely political states to gain power and keep it.

It is unfortunate that people think that America was founded as a Christian nation and has only recently begun to lose out in the free market. Many of the principal founders were Deists for their entire lives (Jefferson and Washington found Protestantism towards the end). It believe there was only one Catholic. If they had wanted the state to be Christian, they would have said so. But they had no need to create a Christian nation because all of Europe was practically a Christian Nation. (And only God himself knows how many people died in the name of Christ for no reason but to keep some man named Hapsburg or Medici or whomever in power)

To compare Christians to gun toters and the tobacco lobby is plain wrong. The NRA is a group of people who believe they have the right to kill people, and to have weapons that could obliterate dozens in seconds (surely not to be used for hunting I imagine). The tobacco companies have a product that has been scientifically proven to do harm not only to the smoker but to all those around him.

Christians are a community of believers. They believe in there beliefs and they welcome others to come and join them. I welcome response

Sorry what, are you saying that Christian beliefs are the only ones that are right? It sounds that way to me. You're saying NRA and the Tobacco lobby are not a community of believers? They are not welcome to their beliefs?

It is a gift to be able to say something without offending anyone. I know of few people who have this gift. Those who do not offend anyone when speaking about contentious issues, probably aren't saying anything productive at all.

You have made some points that I see, yet, we must, for the sake of religion itself, separate the NRA and organizations like it to religion.

I'm not sure where I am going with this, but I feel that the Christian movement as a whole needs to re-evaluate their ways on the earth, for they are disgracing the holiness of their Savior and ruining the reputation of a bulwark for peace and love in the process.

My intention not to a direct impose of a religion in its fullform, but some values , goodness, honesty, kindness, selfless approach- these are the qualities influence by a certain group of people and that group came in power - combination with democracy this is possible on my view. Bad politicians is a problem worldwide. Resolving peoples problems like poverty and unemployment, working for world peace and environment protection, these are religion more than politics- because GOD LOVING THESE THINGS. I know a christian priest leading a farmers union successfully in south india to prevent farmers suicide. Under his guidance these group engaging in running imaginable projects for farmers self recovery.

Atw, I believe you are missing my point. I am not offended, neither am I christian, a gun owner or a smoker. I see absolutely no difference between those 3 organisations when it comes to politics and their rights. You are saying there is a difference, that christians should have rights where NRA and tobacco lobby do not. This seems incredibly narrow minded to me, they are groups of people with a set of beliefs, why should they be separated from religion?

I guess I would have to ask what "rights" you mean. Religious beliefs, right or wrong, are sancrosanct to the masses nonetheless. I don't mind to infringe on any perceived "rights" of anyone, unless they happen to be dangerous and immoral to the said masses. Christianity is not about government or rights, but about a divine covenant with God and his Son. Over the years (thousands of years) it has turned away from its true message. It's a shame. It can still be saved.

My intention not to a direct impose of a religion in its fullform, but some values , goodness, honesty, kindness, selfless approach- these are the qualities influence by a certain group of people and that group came in power - combination with democracy this is possible on my view. Bad politicians is a problem worldwide. Resolving peoples problems like poverty and unemployment, working for world peace and environment protection, these are religion more than politics- because GOD LOVING THESE THINGS. I know a christian priest leading a farmers union successfully in south india to prevent farmers suicide. Under his guidance these group engaging in running imaginable projects for farmers self recovery.

What your saying here is that because I am a non -believer I have on values/am not honest/ unkind /etc.

Well I will be kind enough to forgive your ignorance. -:D - Savage

What your saying here is that because I am a non -believer I have on values/am not honest/ unkind /etc.?

Well I will be kind enough to forgive your ignorance. -:D - Savage

If I could be allowed the opportunity to interject. (please)

It isn't a dispute over non-believers being bad and Christians being good. Everyone knows a bad christian and everyone knows a bad non-believer.

The important distinction is that people, everyone, is bad and God is good. Some people aren't as bad as others (of course) and some (like myself) are just bad on the inside so people would easily label me as a good guy. But the truth is I'm a selfish person, just like everyone else, to their own degree.

This is why parents have to teach kids to behave (some more than others of course) and why there are police and laws and politics. We are just born thinking the world revolves around ourselves and we have to find something outside ourselves to fix that.

Honestly... **whispers** I don't like Christians as a whole. I wish there was someway for me to believe the same things but call myself something better and that's because I'm selfish and prideful and want to be cool.

We are all bad people, some of us believe there is a God who loves us anyways. Because of that we try to be like Him, walk like Him and talk like Him. But we suck at it, every time I try to walk I fall right over. And He loves me just for trying. (Like a parent and a baby)

If I could be allowed the opportunity to interject. (please)

It isn't a dispute over non-believers being bad and Christians being good. Everyone knows a bad christian and everyone knows a bad non-believer.

The important distinction is that people, everyone, is bad and God is good.
Sorry I will have to point out that according to the Bible -- God has done/ordered done many things that do not pass my moral smells good test. Even Jesus approved slavery. -- Savage

Sorry I will have to point out that according to the Bible -- God has done/ordered done many things that do not pass my moral smells good test. Even Jesus approved slavery. -- Savage

There are so many things that I don't understand. As I said I believe that we are born with a bent ruler, meaning we have a hard time judging right from wrong. I'm not saying slavery is good, it's evil and selfish. But since we are born bad, wouldn't our opinion of good be bad as well? Also, who am I to judge God? I don't tell a man what to do in his own house, I also don't tell God what to do in His own universe.

I like you Savage, you're a smart/ funny guy.

I am sorry you have a hard time judging right from wrong. I do not have that handicap thus need no God or Gods laws to tell me what is moral and right.
For this reason I wish you to kept your Gods laws to yourselves and out of my Government. -- Savage

I am sorry you have a hard time judging right from wrong. I do not have that handicap thus need no God or Gods laws to tell me what is moral and right.
For this reason I wish you to kept your Gods laws to yourselves and out of my Government. -- Savage

So, are you saying that religious minded people should have no say in politics, or we should not vote, or we should not be represented? Seems a bit extreme.

I am sorry you have a hard time judging right from wrong. I do not have that handicap thus need no God or Gods laws to tell me what is moral and right.
For this reason I wish you to kept your Gods laws to yourselves and out of my Government. -- Savage

It's everyone's government...

If there were people with no moral handicap than a dictatorship would work out perfectly, then it could be your government. :)

So, are you saying that religious minded people should have no say in politics, or we should not vote, or we should not be represented? Seems a bit extreme.
No I am not says that at all -- what I am saying is things like / creationism / homophobia/intolerance/ authoritatizum [sp]/ is part and parcel of a few of the flavors of your religion [And Islam also], and I sure do not want the falwell`s and robertsons of the world influencing the lives of my loved ones or me.-- Savage

Simple question -- would picking a person to be in our government was made on the basic`s of religion, not ability \-- for example / a inordinate # of people that had graduated from a forth tier Christian law collage where appointed to government jobs over a short period // would that be good for the nation or not?
Bye the way --I enjoy conversations like this and hope its all in good fun on both sides -- Savage

Thanks for that up for me.

Simple question -- would picking a person to be in our government was made on the basic`s of religion, not ability \-- for example / a inordinate # of people that had graduated from a forth tier Christian law collage where appointed to government jobs over a short period // would that be good for the nation or not?
bye the way --I enjoy conversations like this and hope its all in good fun on both sides -- Savage

I believe it would be good for a nation if it's leaders/legislators fallowed a moral compass. For me, christianity is my moral compass. I do not mean to speak of men and women who claim to be christian, but who would fallow christian principles. If a person is appointed to a government job just because they went to a christian law collage, well, surely we would need more qualifications than that! I would say however: if all things were equal, I personally, would lean towards the one who had a religious education. Again, I look at christian principles not the actions of those who say they are christians. It is those principles which I would say would be good for the nation.

Would you feel untroubled if they followed pat robertsons flavor of Christianity?

I differ with some of Robertsons views. But, I must admit I do not know to many of his views. He isn't really on my radar screen.;)

Part Of it to me is mixing politic`s and a truly religious person is like mixing oil and water. The other part is the politicians are using Religion for votes but when it comes to what Jesus would do, the poor get the shaft every time.
Elections come around and suddenly its gay marriage/ abortion/ the war on drug/ -- any ploy the politicians can find to make you believe they are the moral ones. A moral politician is very rare -- the last true one I believe was President Carter, and you saw how far he got. -- Savage

His views -- just a few late ones
9/11 was gods wrath for gays being tolerated in the usa
The town that last year voted out a school board that had tried to interduce creationism into the school would feel gods wrath
The Pesisdent of Venezuela needs to be killed

That flavor - savage

I have to agree with you there. It' almost impossible to be totally honest and get elected. What's that old saying? A dirty politician is redundant. Or something like that.:)

His views -- just a few late ones
9/11 was gods wrath for gays being tolerated in the usa
the town that last year voted out a school board that had tried to interduce creationism into the school would feel gods wrath
the Pesisdent of Venezuela needs to be killed

that flavor - savage

Oh yea, now I remember why I don't pay much attention to him.

The Savage has a point. Not all Christians are good, just look at all the sex scandals by the Catholics, the thievery by those bible belt megachurches, not to mention the actual parishioners themselves.

Then again, I know of many people whom are more kind and gentle and loving than those within my church. Its unfair to generalize, and to accuse someone unfairly is plain wrong.

My posts on this where really leading around to this latest news -- I find this disturbing -- Savage
AlterNet: Rights and Liberties: Media Finally Discovers Army of Pat Robertson Acolytes in Bush Administration (http://www.alternet.org/rights/50408/)

I wouldn't go too far with that. Robertson is a nut, no doubts there, but somebody (actually a lot of people) decided to vote for Bush (twice mind you). Like it or not, Bush has every right to hire the people he wants to (hopefully they are qualified).

In the end the only true Christians are the one Christ. The rest of us, believers or not, only desecrate the name.

Simple question -- would picking a person to be in our government was made on the basic`s of religion, not ability \-- for example / a inordinate # of people that had graduated from a forth tier Christian law collage where appointed to government jobs over a short period // would that be good for the nation or not?
bye the way --I enjoy conversations like this and hope its all in good fun on both sides -- Savage

Yes, it has been enjoyable and meaningful.

I want our government to correctly represent the people they speak for. If a city is made up of a majority of atheist then the mayor should hold the same beliefs and values that the city hold. The Christians living in that city should still be respectful of their leader but at the same time desire a Christian leader that can represent their own beliefs. A person should not change their beliefs just because they are a minority. Obviously what someone believes should be influenced by truth (as abstract as that may sound) and not by what the masses believe.

I expect people to live what they believe, even when I don't agree with their beliefs. If you believe in abortion then support women's rights movement. If you believe in the right to own and carry guns then vote for someone that believes in those things also.

To summarize my complicated answer to a simple question: Picking a person to be in our government based on religion, not ability, would only be good if it accurately reflects the population. I will finish by saying that religion should be secondary to ability. If they have the same beliefs but are unable to lead then it is pointless for them to be in office because they are no help to anyone.

His views -- just a few late ones
9/11 was gods wrath for gays being tolerated in the usa
the town that last year voted out a school board that had tried to interduce creationism into the school would feel gods wrath
the Pesisdent of Venezuela needs to be killed

that flavor - savage

There are many people who think they are doing the right thing and screw things up for everyone else.

1 Corinthians 13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

God is a jealous God. He made us, loved of, and wants us to be happy and still we reject Him. Thankfully Jesus stands between us and God's wrath, if we let him. That any type of selfish action is wrong and evil. Putting the focus on gays as if that's more evil than cheating on a test or lying is absurd.

It's no secret, the verse above makes it crystal clear: Love is more important than anything else in the world. God is love, and when we love other people, we are literally giving them the gift of God.

The biggest advantage of religion is life management based on moral values like love, kindness and selflessapproach. Religion can easily create good people in a big and organaised level and those people who enters various fields in life and giving positive contribution. Politics is an important field in life and everybody wants good politicians- they will give goodcontribution. JESUS second coming and kingdom of HEAVEN IN EARTH means christianity not against politics.

The biggest advantage of religion is life management based on moral values like love, kindness and selflessapproach. I seem to manage my life just fine without religion. I and my family have great morals and ethics on our own, no religion required. This si true of many people I know.



Religion can easily create good people in a big and organaised level and those people who enters various fields in life and giving positive contribution. There are just as many 'bad' people in all walks of life whether they are christians, jews, atheists, etc. Being a christian does NOT make one a good person.

It would seem that individuals that have no moral compass through loss of proper parenting, hardship or experienced some trauma are the ones that gravitate towards religion in search of answers as to why they are not where they wish to be.

Deep level of religious education have the power creating good people. With out religious education it is impossible- except a few people because of good circumstances they get. But all of them are not lucky in getting this type positive sorroundings. So they need religion.

Sorry nasar but that's just plain wrong. I have been lucky enough to meet good people from many nationalities and religions.

I understand why you say what you say - it stems from a need to feel superior to others. I have no such need, it's very liberating.

Deep level of religious education have the power creating good people. with out religious education it is impossible- except a few people because of good circumstances they get. but all of them are not lucky in getting this type positive sorroundings. so they need religion.
Deep levels of religious education also creates terrorist bombers,Mass suicides , cults etc.-- Savage

IS christianity can influence politics in a HEALTHY WAY- POPE BENEDICT is also a ruler- what you think.

Christianity can influence politics in a healthy way when certain laws involve ethics or morals.
Otherwise in our Democracy(U.S) we have the "separation of Church & State." Our laws are secular.
One can clearly see that Theocracy doesn't work for the greater good. As mentioned it creates terrorism from the potential fanaticism. Theocracy is the philosophy of none other than Osama bin laden- a fusion of mosque & state. It supports extremism where radicals such as in radical Islam where the cultists even kill peaceful Muslims for not being "holy" enough.

Christianity and politics

What are two subjects that will start a riot?

I don't know man but I just read this whole post and now all I want is for the whole world to blow up. Gone! It just ain't working man. Somebody blow it up! Now! I've had enough. Kill me! I can't stand it anymore!

You guys need a better circle of friends.

We... we're a part of your circle of friends
And we've... noticed you don't come around anymore
-Edie Brickell and the New Bohemians

Oh I think this subject was best summed up in that movie that had Jay and Silent bob, fighting with the two rouge Angels played by Ben Aflack and Matt Damon. Well I can't think of the name right now, but it was very informative.

Dogma

Let me start this off by telling everyone that I am one of those wild eyed shouting fundamentalist Christians that no one wants to move in next door. Not only that but I am also a preacher who generally is pretty hard to offend.

Should Christianity influence politics? Unequivocally yes!

This nation was founded upon Judeo-Christian principles by men who were, despite what some say about deists, primarily Christian. It could almost be argued that at the time there was a “State Religion”… Christianity. But I won't really try to go into that here.

Over the years my colleagues in the “fundamentalist and evangelical” Christian denominations have done their congregations and this nation a very severe disservice. They have told their people to stay out of politics because it was too dirty a game and God had it under control anyhow. The result of this action is that we have people in public office who would not know the truth if it came up and bit them on the backside. People whose integrity is nonexistent with the morals of an alley cat (I apologize to the alley cats of the world)

Pastors should be involved in politics in this way. They should be encouraging their people across the pulpit, not supporting specific candidates but telling them to go to the polls and cast their vote for the person who most represents their own values.
Now, I think I've settled down enough to address the person who said that the NRA is a group of people who want to go out and kill people.

Quote: To compare Christians to gun toters and the tobacco lobby is plain wrong. The NRA is a group of people who believe they have the right to kill people, and to have weapons that could obliterate dozens in seconds (surely not to be used for hunting I imagine).

I take exception to and offense at your statement I am a NRA member and I hope and pray that I never have to use my ability with firearms to take the life of another.

As a Law Enforcement Chaplain I “ride along” with the officers of my own department and because the Chaplaincy I serve provides services to ALL first responders in our county, I also ride with Deputies from the County and officers of the CHP. When I am riding with these fine men and women situations sometimes can become “hairy”. I go out on these rides unarmed but know the location of the releases for the rifle and shotgun in the car. If I am the only “back-up” on scene and my officer is down and in danger I will use the training that I have had in the use of firearms to protect him. Again I say I hope and pray that I am never put into that position.

It seems that you lack facts about the NRA and what it stands for or you may be one of those people who don't want to be confused by facts because their mind is made up. I would rather give you the doubt and assume that it is the former.

The tobacco industry is made up of people who also have rights whether the industry is good or bad has no bearing upon those rights.


BTW When I went through school (which was before a lot of the rewriting that has taken place) the text books spoke of the “Founding Fathers” as Christians.

Pastors should be involved in politics in this way. They should be encouraging their people across the pulpit, not supporting specific candidates but telling them to go to the polls and cast their vote for the person who most represents their own values.

This is my view as well. It would concern me if I heard from the pulpit "you should vote for candidate..." What I do hear are the values which we should stand for, and so then vote for.