Hello:

Would race be an issue today if we didn't enslave black people? How would it be if their presence here was due to legal immigration?

excon

The problem todauy has nothing to do with something that ended after the civil war... it has everything to do with people that are raised by their parents who rely on handouts to feel like they are entitled to more handouts.

While that isn't true for all.. its true for a majority... and the fact there isn't a single person alive who was a slave... not one person is alive whose parents were a slave... and nobody is alive whose grandparents were a slave.

Its way past time for them to get over something none of them ever experienced... and accept responsibility for their own lives.

I don't OWE them anything... and neither does anyone else. NO person alive was ever a slaveowner... and in fact... most of us never even had an ancestor that was ever a slave holder. And there are a HUGE percentage of us... who didn't even have ancestors here during that period.

There are a lot of blacks that cling to that who never had ancestors who were slaves either... there were a LOT who immigrated here long after slavery ended.

And even those who did... seem to have selective amnesia over the fact that it was other blacks who captured them... and sold them into slavery back then.

And in fact... many of us have Irish blood... and the Irish were treated even worse. During the early 1900's when it was common to see signs posted "INNA" meaning Irish need not apply.

Hello smoothy:

I appreciate you're not being BLATANTLY racist. Hopefully, we can keep the discussion civil.

You should know, however, that the very definition of racism is when you ascribe certain negative tendencies to a GROUP of people. As long as you hold those positions, I don't believe a rational discussion on this topic is possible with you.

excon

You should know, however, that the very definition of racism is when you ascribe certain negative tendencies to a GROUP of people

Similar to what liberals do to conservatives.

Racism has always been an issue and slavery is STILL a problem but personally I don't think race would be nearly the issue it is now if certain segments of society would stop seeing it where it doesn't exist.

Hello again, Steve:

Maybe we should DEFINE racism so we're all starting from the same place..

I say you can TALK about racism WITHOUT it being racist.. For example, Joe Biden said the OTHER guys wants to put you in chains... Metaphorically, I AGREE with him. It's NOT a racist statement.. It's POLITICAL. It's NOTHING but political.. It's not even CLOSE to racism. Yet, you guys called him a racist for saying it...

What's up with that?

excon

This is a topic for discussion only, because we will never know 'what if.'

Whether enslaved or stumbling ashore starving, the result is poverty and homelessness in a strange land. And that leads to prejudice by the people already here. Add skin color to the process and it's easy to perpetuate it. Did the Irish work harder to assimilate or did they have an easier time because they could move on up and put lace in the window and no one knew?

Hello smoothy:

I appreciate you're not being BLATANTLY racist. Hopefully, we can keep the discussion civil.

You should know, however, that the very definition of racism is when you ascribe certain negative tendencies to a GROUP of people. As long as you hold those positions, I don't believe a rational discussion on this topic is possible with you.

exconYOu are the one being racist by DEMANDING or even thinking I OWE a certain race something purely because they are of a certain race.

I owe nobody anything... I certainly owe nobody anything because they are a certain race.

Racists are those that think they are entitled to something purely because they are of a certain race.

People are entitled to what they earn and work for themselves... none of them are entitled to something more because they have a certain skin color, no matter what that skin color is.

Joe Biden... is a blabbering idiot.

QUOTE by smoothy;
The problem todauy has nothing to do with something that ended after the civil war... it has everything to do with people that are raised by their parents who rely on handouts to feel like they are entitled to more handouts.

Slavery may have ended as an institution, but freedom took longer to achieve as a matter of financial and social options and opportunities, so a hand out is better than no hand up. Of course you can't see the distinction because you see masses of lazy people and refuse to acknowledge that physical chains were merely replaced with phsycological ones.


While that isn't true for all.. its true for a majority... and the fact there isn't a single person alive who was a slave... not one person is alive whose parents were a slave... and nobody is alive whose grandparents were a slave.

When slavery was ended millions of blacks were left to fend for themselves many with no knowledge of the rest of the regions were like let alone the rest of the country, or the skills to do anything but what they had been, and with the prejudices of the dominant race's segregation policies that lasted well into the 196os, we see that systematic discrimination and racism had a huge impact on not jut freed slaves but their children and descendants a well.

Of course in the minds of a true racist as yourself, none of that counts for squat and you bear no personal responsibility and can shift blame to hide from your own culpability in the system. Its okay to keep a boot on the darkies and go about your own business.


Its way past time for them to get over something none of them ever experienced... and accept responsibility for their own lives.

That's the funny part, as most have done just that despite the best efforts for years of the racist among the white race. They will never admit they have failed and minorities, not just the black minority have gained prominence through knowledge and empowerment slowly but surely. I can't blame modern racist like you from being angry about that and scared sh1tless of the obvious trends going on and I hope you accept your future assimilation into a greater wider diversity that is America.

Chill out, chances are you will be treated better than you have treated others.


I don't OWE them anything... and neither does anyone else. NO person alive was ever a slaveowner... and in fact... most of us never even had an ancestor that was ever a slave holder. And there are a HUGE percentage of us... who didn't even have ancestors here during that period.

LOL, hope you still say that after you are outnumbered and out cultured and minorities tell you racist that they owe YOU nothing.


There are a lot of blacks that cling to that who never had ancestors who were slaves either... there were a LOT who immigrated here long after slavery ended.

And you segregated and discriminated against them too, like you do any. What happen o the millions of slaves and their descendants though? Did they disappear or something? Did they not multiply like all human do? Just because you were the dominate race You feel entitled to foist your rapidly shrinking version of equality, and freedom on the rest of us and that's the true definition of racism.


And even those who did... seem to have selective amnesia over the fact that it was other blacks who captured them... and sold them into slavery back then.

How ignorant to think the African version of slavery was the same as the Euro-American one and since you have no clue look it up. Another symptom of racism, vast ignorance of your victims.


And in fact... many of us have Irish blood... and the Irish were treated even worse. During the early 1900's when it was common to see signs posted "INNA" meaning Irish need not apply.

And now you have made it? And that entitles you to spit on others because you were spit on? That makes you more a scared ignorant human that has forgotten where he came from. Also a trait of a racist.

You made the case so don't be shy about acknowledging it. We understand your fear, and fully expect a hateful diatribe of more of your rantings as rebuttal.

Typical leftist drivel...

All of it excuses for a certain class to lay the blame of their own pooor decisions on others... and excuse their own laziness.

Read that right out of the DNC handbook?

I don't own a damn thing to any black who never took school serious... refuses to speak coheirant english... or dress like a civilized person...

Many of them preffer to be on welfare and complain than get off their butts and work.

And there are a lot of blacks who will say the same thing I just did. Because I've heard them say it.

The people that need to CHill are the lazy bums that think they are owed anything...

Unlike them... I actually EARNED everything I have... despite not having ANY of the free help they all have available to them. The people getting screwed today are the poor White people... who have no advocates or programs to help them.

And ANYONE that so much as THINKS a certain group NEED handouts because they are genetically inferior to be able to compete with others in school.. or in life... are the people with the problem... because every one of them have the same chances and the same capacity as every other group out there has.

It's the Liberals that believe blacks and Hispanics aren't our equals... and need handouts just to be equal. That's the rascist mindset that needs changing.

My ancestors were treated far worse by the British than any slave ever was by a slave owner... The Brits don't owe me any more than any black is owed. And that amount is zilch.. ziup, nada... niente... nothing. Because nobody living was a victim of this... and stuff that happened long before you was born? Well its time to suck it up and get over it.

Of course... they are all free to return to their ancestoral homelands and see if they would be any better off there... because in most cases... they wouldn't.

Similar to what liberals do to conservatives.

Racism has always been an issue and slavery is STILL a problem but personally I don't think race would be nearly the issue it is now if certain segments of society would stop seeing it where it doesn't exist.

It would help if certain segments of society were not in denial that a lot of hate goes on and its just not from liberals. Maybe not in YOUR neighborhood, but it does exist and persists.

Hello again, Steve:

Maybe we should DEFINE racism so we're all starting from the same place..

I say you can TALK about racism WITHOUT it being racist.. For example, Joe Biden said the OTHER guys wants to put you in chains... Metaphorically, I AGREE with him. It's NOT a racist statement.. It's POLITICAL. It's NOTHING but political.. It's not even CLOSE to racism. Yet, you guys called him a racist for saying it...

What's up with that?

excon

I've already corrected you on this before. Biden was an a$$ for injecting racism where it doesn't exist, for playing the race card - which was not only political but inexcusable for the VP of the United States. That's not us calling him a racist, it's Biden calling US racists. Got it?

Hello again, Steve:


That's not us calling him a racist, it's Biden calling US racists. Got it?I DO. And, that's why I said I agree with him. Although I wasn't as succinct as Joe Biden, the underlying sentiment I had over our voter ID debates, was that what YOU were doing, is tantamount to putting black people BACK in chains.

I didn't want this thread to be "you're a racist", "no, YOU'RE a racist", "no, you're a BIGGER racist than I am"... But, it appears to have devolved into one.

There IS a feeling of blaming the victims on your side.. When we discuss drugs, you say black people don't HAVE to sell drugs. When I talk about prison, you say black people don't HAVE to break the law. When I talk about being poor, you say black people CHOOSE to be poor.

Maybe there's NO solution..

Excon

If its something that happened generations before your were born... you aren't a "Vicitim". Its just a lame excuse.

Yes, ex I remember all the discussions, and you just keep validating my theory.

If its something that happened generations before your were born....you aren't a "Vicitim". Its just a lame excuse.

Most people don't have to go back generations to be a victim of unfair practice and policies as being called lazy and entitled after losing house and home because of rich folks us is blatant racism on YOUR part. Deny and feel entitled all you want but the facts don't change because you don't want to see them.

Most people don't have to go back generations to be a victim of unfair practice and policies as being called lazy and entitled after losing house and home because of rich folks us is blatant racism on YOUR part. Deny and feel entitled all you want but the facts don't change because you don't want to see them.

Oh get over the smugness... if someone loses their house... its because they didn't pay for it... NOT because some evil rich person took it from them.

IF you spend more than you make... you either get a second job or reduce your spending... what is it with liberals and their entitlement mentality... where personal responsibility is a foreign language?

No "Rich " person ever stole a house off someone... a foreclosure happens when someone doesn't pay for something they bought. They signed the papers... they agreed to pay... if they don't pay.. they lose it. That's how it works.

I don't owe you and anyone else a damn thing... if you want a new car... get off your butt and earn the money to buy one... if you want a house... get off your butt and get a job to pay for it... I have NO legal.. or moral obligation to give anyone anything that is too lazy to get off their butts and work for it. If they are too lazy to get a job... then they do without.

Let me answer your question from a different perspective. In my nation, Australia, slavery never existed, however there was an indigenous dark race. The behaviour of these people gives rise to very deep seated attitudes which could be viewed as racism. They think that we (people of immigrant stock) took something away from them and that we own them a living.

Racism can exist without slavery, it exists wherever one group of people are treated as inferior by another group of people or are given advantage over another group.

And in fact...many of us have Irish blood...and the Irish were treated even worse. during the early 1900's when it was common to see signs posted "INNA" meaning Irish need not apply.

Why are you invoking a pseudo-scientific explanation?

It could be argued that racism is a form of ethnocentrism ;as the concept of race is a relatively new concept ;a product of the 18th century. Slavery predates that by many Centuries. I have no doubt that legacy of slavery is a contributing factor in race relations.

Eric Holder challenged the country to have a frank and honest discussion about race. Then the Obots have demagogued the issue every chance they get ,going back to the Cambridge incident . The discussion has to go beyond finger pointing and suspicion of motives .

Hello again, tom:


The discussion has to go beyond finger pointing and suspicion of motives I quite agree... With the exception of smoothy, I don't believe you guys are racists. Having said that, I believe that voter ID laws WAS an attempt to suppress the black vote.. Even though I believe your hearts are pure, do you have ANY doubts about the motives of your leaders?

I'll ACCEPT your answers at face value, and entertain YOUR question. I'm really trying to understand this.. It seems that we're making headway because you grasp that our "legacy of slavery is a contributing factor in race relations." How anyone can IGNORE that is incomprehensible to me.

excon

PS> Hello smoothy,

Does my characterization of you being a racist piss you off, or do you wear it like a badge of courage? You seem to be coming out of your shell a little bit. You're not holding back on your racism. Come on, you can tell me...

Look. I still LIKE you smoothy.. I have friends who share your views.

On the other hand I can't understand the objection to preventing voter fraud, I don't want anyone disenfranchised including me by having my legitimate vote cancelled by fraudulent votes.

. Having said that, I believe that voter ID laws WAS an attempt to suppress the black vote.. Even though I believe your hearts are pure, do you have ANY doubts about the motives of your leaders?

Perhaps that goes more with when I wrote The discussion has to go beyond finger pointing and suspicion of motives .
Our side suspects that there is voter fraud ;some of the statistics bear it out... how do you get over 100 % turnout in a district ? Wouldn't a photo id adequately prevent fraud in a time when there is frequently same day registrations ? Do you not see the potential for fraud in that ?
Your side questions our motives and says that our reason for doing it is to deny the franchise to minorities. That is an absurd argument that reeks of the mistrust I spoke about .We want everyone who is eligible to vote to have the opportunity to vote... Yes it should be as convenient as possible... but the integrity of the process is just as important . So if someone has to get a photo id to vote ;that doesn't seem to be all that much of an inconvenience. The process can be tweeked to deal with all the concerns against it.

Hello again, Steve:

You're not playing well with others...

There's TWO levels to this conversation.. There's voter ID, and we HAD that discussion.. Now, I'm trying to elevate the conversation. Or maybe that's my intellectualism, and there IS no higher level...

Look. I know we're not going to solve the worlds problems here. But, if we can create some understanding, that'll go a long way.

Will it help if I admit my racism here? I HATE it, but when I see young black men I go on the alert. When they sit behind me at a restaurant, I wonder if they're going to rob me. Yes, I hate it, but it doesn't go away. I am NOT immune from the society where I am ingrained... Ok, my mother referred to our cleaning girl as the shfartza. That's as racist as you get.. I thought it was cute name. I knew NOTHING.

Over to you, wingers..

excon

Hey, you're the one that keeps playing the voter ID card. As I've said many times I am the minority, the skin jokes were about me. Nearly all my friends had darker skin than me growing up so I don't get this racism thing. They're just people, so when everyone adopts my view and stops pointing out their skin color we might get somewhere.

Hello again, tom:


Your side questions our motives and says that our reason for doing it is to deny the franchise to minorities. That is an absurd argument that reeks of the mistrust I spoke about Are smoothy's motives as pure as yours? Why is it absurd to think he doesn't want black people to vote, because he HATES them? How many smoothy's are there on your side? That you have them, and you do, is the basis for the mistrust you speak of.. I don't think it's unreasonable at all.

Excon

I have not heard smoothy say that he's in favor of voter id for the purpose of denying the franchise to blacks. In fact I have not heard anyone on my side express that sentiment . You are projecting motives that do not exist... or if they do ,it is from an insignificant fringe segment . Yeah I'm sure neo-Nazi skin head and KKK etc would say that... For you to project that onto the larger conservative or Republic body demonstrates that 'suspicion of motives ' I was speaking about.

Hello again, tom:


I have not heard smoothy say that he's in favor of voter id for the purpose of denying the franchise to blacks. I'm not buying it. Does someone actually have to DECLARE what their motives are before you suspect them of something untoward?? I don't think I've ever heard smoothy say he HATES black people either, but anybody who can read can't doubt that he does.

You say, OK, maybe there's a few on the fringe...

Maybe if your party wasn't the one who opposed civil rights legislation, one could believe that. Or, you COULD pretend it was the Republican party who was the SAVIOR of black people, like Rand Paul tried to tell his black audience at Howard University yesterday. He doesn't seem to know that revising black history in front of an educated black audience, isn't the way to reach out... In fact, it ADDS to the suspicion..

Years ago, I was accused of SHOVING an employee. I did TOUCH her on the shoulder, but it turned into a giant fiasco. Since then, I NEVER come within 3 feet of an employee.

You'd think the Republican party would do the same thing. If I were running the RNC, and I wanted the country to BELIEVE that our racist ways were OVER, I'd STAY AWAY from legislation that could be considered to be racist... Instead they're dabbling around the edges.

Yes, I AM suspicious.

Excon

You do know it was a Democrat in each house that were blocking the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and that Republicans voted for it in a larger percentage than Dems. And that Sheets Byrd filibustered it, right?

I have not heard smoothy say that he's in favor of voter id for the purpose of denying the franchise to blacks. In fact I have not heard anyone on my side express that sentiment . You are projecting motives that do not exist .... or if they do ,it is from an insignificant fringe segment . Yeah I'm sure neo-Nazi skin head and KKK etc would say that ... For you to project that onto the larger conservative or Repubic body demonstrates that 'suspicion of motives ' I was speaking about.

And I'm not... I am in favor of a Photo Voter ID to show that people are who they claim... and they aren't voting under 3 or 4 different names and addresses. That has everything to do with ensuring one person.. one vote.. and that those who vote are legally entitled to vote.

You can't vote in MOST countries without a state issued voter ID... and the reason for that is to control voter fraud. Fraud is rampant anywhere people don't have to prove they are who they claim... and that they are even entitled to vote in the first place.

Anyone that is against voter ID.. is someone that is FOR vote fraud.

Funny how poor people can come up with an ID to get their handouts... or other benefits... and they do need an ID to get them. Why is it they can't get one to vote too? Or is it because many of them vote more than once?

Hello again, Steve:

What both you and Rand Paul forget, that both me and black people remember is that AFTER the Civil Rights Act passed, the Dixiecrats, (southern Democrats), became Republicans.

But, I'm not going to argue about one or two people, and what THAT means.. It means NOTHING in the main. The larger issue, however, is your intention to rewrite history. IF the intent of your post, and Rand Paul's speech, is to convince black people that it was RIGHT WINGERS, no matter what they called themselves back then, who were the CHAMPIONS of civil rights..

It's laughable on it's face.

excon

Well it's the suspicions that are road blocks to the progress you seek. As you have demonstrated.. when push comes to shove ;it's resort to finger pointing.. that makes for intractable positions.
Yup Repubics like Paul cherry pick their history much like the Dems do ( Kennedy '' ask not what your country can do for you".. Kennedy supply side tax cuts.. etc ) .

I would argue that the Dems nanny state dependency policies have ultimately hurt blacks . I would argue ,like Jack Kemp used to , that in the long run that conservatives polices are better for the black community .There are many prominent blacks who say the same thing .They are disparaged and dismissed as sell outs .

What bothered me most was the exchange he had with the student who said :,”I don't want the government to leave me alone. I want it to help me”. Yeah ,the Dems are good at nurturing dependency . Everyone criticized Romney for comments he made about people who would not vote for him because he doesn't believe in dolling out the goodies. Here is a case where a member of the presumably "educated black audience "would rather depend on the nanny-state for his well being .

Can't say I blame him... increasingly ,the entitlement game is the only game in town .

A better game is high finance that buys up stuff moves it around and creates NO labor cost, just huge bonuses. Calling people names can lead to suspicion and finger pointing, especially since they aren't job creators like the rich guys claim.

And if you have ever been laid off or fired, would YOU vote for a guy who looks, acts, and talks like a boss? Government didn't create a nanny state, rich guys did.

I've been laid off and fired before . You pick yourself up . Don't feel sorry for yourself or put upon .

it could be argued that racism is a form of ethnocentrism ;as the concept of race is a relatively new concept ;a product of the 18th century. Slavery predates that by many Centuries. I have no doubt that legacy of slavery is a contributing factor in race relations.


I think this idea just perpetuates confusion. Your ethnic identity is acquired by learning. In other words, your social characteristics exhibited are the product of what your groups wants you to learn. What you learn you can unlearn.

Racism on the other hand says that your social characteristics are part of your biology. They have not been learned and you cannot change them. This type of pseudo-scientific definitions can take the form of blood types and partial 'percentage-ness' of a race.

I've been laid off and fired before . You pick yourself up . Don't feel sorry for yourself or put upon .

Some are more overwhelmed than others. Some get up quicker than others. Human nature has many responses to adversity. Share some of your coping strategies with us, like how did you eat and provide shelter for yourself, while laid off and fired.

Racism on the other hand says that your social characteristics are part of your biology. They have not been learned and you cannot change them. This type of pseudo-scientific definitions can take the form of blood types and partial 'percentage-ness' of a race.
Like I said; Race consciousness is a relatively new concept. Pseudo-science?. absolutely ! It is being discredited by scientific discovery too.
Ethnocentrism would explain Smoothy's point about the prejudice against the Irish... That was the Irish v English experience that began in England ,and crossed the pond .

Some are more overwhelmed than others. Some get up quicker than others. Human nature has many responses to adversity. Share some of your coping strategies with us, like how did you eat and provide shelter for yourself, while laid off and fired.

I plan for rainy days I live a modest lifestyle generally . My wife is good at stretching grocery money.. Beans and rice etc. I temporarily took jobs I was over qualified for ,I retrained.. I kept looking for better;and there was an element of luck . I did not feel sorry for myself . I worked 2 jobs with a walking cast on my foot !

Life happens... maybe the left doesn't recognize that . You think the solution for every thing is found in a government program.

like I said; Race consciousness is a relatively new concept. Pseudo-science ?...absolutely ! It is being discredited by scientific discovery too.
Ethnocentrism would explain Smoothy's point about the prejudice against the Irish ... That was the Irish v English experience that began in England ,and crossed the pond .

Yes, but it doesn't explain the use of "blood types" to explain ethnocentric or ethnic prejudices. Ethnic prejudice should not have anything to do with biology of the blood and a fair bit to do with racism.

I am new to this and will just go on some observations that I have seen in my travels.

There is discrimination due to race, or skin color, due to income and due to religion in almost all of the world.

Here in China, light skin is worshiped, people will spend 1000's trying to get lighter skin, and people with darker color skin are seen or viewed as less popular. My wife can not get some speaking positions ( that they will give me) because she is black and they want white english speaking people. ** speaking positions pay very well for one day work.

Also discrimination due to male/ female is very common all over the world.

So is religion since for example, certain positions here people are not allowed to have official religions. Perhaps what we will see latter in the US where anyone in political office has to deny their religion, I see it in real life, so it is possible.

Hello again, tom:

Are smoothy's motives as pure as yours? Why is it absurd to think he doesn't want black people to vote, because he HATES them? How many smoothy's are there on your side? That you have them, and you do, is the basis for the mistrust you speak of.. I don't think it's unreasonable at all.

excon

Funny... since YOU have that fixation... perhaps its YOU that harbors hatred towards blacks...

Because I for one don't. I harbor hatred toward the lazy.. and the idiots that think they are entitled to free rides... and we all know that group crosses ALL ethnic boundaries.

Because I for one don't. I harbor hatred toward the lazy..and the idiots that think they are entitled to free rides....and we all know that group crosses ALL ethnic boundaries.

What does laziness have to do with intelligence besides absolutely nothing?

Tut

Ah smoothy, you shouldn't hate anybody. Hate leads to wrong behaviour. Look it is all right to dislike what some people do, but you don't have to associate with them

A better game is high finance that buys up stuff moves it around and creates NO labor cost, just huge bonuses. Calling people names can lead to suspicion and finger pointing, especially since they aren't job creators like the rich guys claim.

And if you have ever been laid off or fired, would YOU vote for a guy who looks, acts, and talks like a boss? Government didn't create a nanny state, rich guys did.

Strange, but when I lost a job or two I never once related it to my vote.

Just making a logical argument to the debate. To each his own, and to you yours. For the record John McCain has been a favorite senator of mine. I thought he was better than Bush.

Yeah I noticed that Dems always have a soft spot for the Repubics that lose. It won't be long before Romney is again remembered for his moderate governing style in Mass.

Yeah when Lance Armstrong makes his comeback.

Oh I know how it works real well. When McCain was challenging Bush he was that lovable maverick. But when he ran ;he was brutalized for the positions he took . Now he's back to being that lovable maverick.

Hello tom:

McCain sucks. He's ALWAYS sucked. Romney sucks too. He'll NEVER make it in the club.

excon

Strange, but when I lost a job or two I never once related it to my vote.

Oh I can when I see a politician I have supported sell out