View Full Version : The butchers of Philadelphia
speechlesstx
Apr 10, 2013, 08:11 AM
And it has nothing to do with cheesesteaks. Kermit Gosnell is facing 43 criminal charges including 8 counts of murder and the national media has no interest in reporting on the story, well except for Fox News that is. I'll again spare you the details but you should at least check out part of the reported trial testimony, such as here (http://www.delawareonline.com/article/20130409/NEWS/304070067/Staffer-recalls-horrors) and here (http://www.lifenews.com/2013/04/09/gosnell-worker-baby-jumped-when-i-snipped-her-neck-in-abortion/).
What Gosnell - and his employees allegedly did - is horrific enough, but the very people that I'm repeatedly told we need looking out for us, government regulators, not only failed to protect the health and safety of women in abortion clinics and the apparently significant number of children born alive in them, they neglected them "by design."
From the Grand Jury's report (http://www.phila.gov/districtattorney/PDFs/GrandJuryWomensMedical.pdf):
We discovered that Pennsylvania’s Department of Health has deliberately chosen not to enforce laws that should afford patients at abortion clinics the same safeguards and assurances of quality health care as patients of other medical service providers. Even nail salons in Pennsylvania are monitored more closely for client safety.
The State Legislature has charged the Department of Health (DOH) with responsibility for writing and enforcing regulations to protect health and safety in abortion clinics as well as in hospitals and other health care facilities. Yet a significant difference exists between how DOH monitors abortion clinics and how it monitors facilities where other medical procedures are performed.
Indeed, the department has shown an utter disregard both for the safety of women who seek treatment at abortion clinics and for the health of fetuses after they have become viable. State health officials have also shown a disregard for the laws the department is supposed to enforce. Most appalling of all, the Department of Health’s neglect of abortion patients’ safety and of Pennsylvania laws is clearly not inadvertent: It is by design. …
State health officials knew that Gosnell and his clinic were offering unacceptable medical care to women and girls, yet DOH failed to take any action to stop the atrocities documented by this Grand Jury. These officials were far more protective of themselves when they testified before the Grand Jury. Even DOH lawyers, including the chief counsel, brought private attorneys with them – presumably at government expense.
How many more state's are failing to protect the women 'served' by abortion clinics and why in the hell isn't the media reporting this?
No excuses.
tomder55
Apr 10, 2013, 08:27 AM
Well you know where I stand on this
Ask Me Help Desk - View Single Post - Gun Control ...it didn't take long (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/3430889-post250.html)
I think this is much more common than will be admitted.. Btw ,Planned Parenthood has always opposed laws that defend the right to life for babies that survive the coup de grace .
LifeSiteNews Mobile | Planned Parenthood has history of opposing anti-infanticide legislation (http://www.lifesitenews.com/blog/planned-parenthood-has-history-of-opposing-anti-infanticide-legislation/)
But then again... so has Emperor 0.
speechlesstx
Apr 10, 2013, 11:36 AM
I guess Philadelphia media is the only media willing to report on what the others black out...
Delaware abortion clinic facing charges of unsafe and unsanitary conditions
April 9, 2013 (WPVI) -- A local abortion clinic is under fire, facing allegations of unsafe and unsanitary conditions.
A series of emergency calls made from the Planned Parenthood of Delaware this year are raising concerns about what's happening behind the closed doors.
Two former nurses who both quit are speaking exclusively with Action News about what they saw inside.
Jayne Mitchell-Werbrich, former employee said, "It was just unsafe. I couldn't tell you how ridiculously unsafe it was."
Werbrich alleges conditions inside the facility were unsanitary.
"He didn't wear gloves," said Werbrich.
Another former employee, Joyce Vasikonis told Action News, "They were using instruments on patients that were not sterile."
The former nurses claim that a rush to get patients in and out left operating tables soiled and unclean.
Werbrich said "It's not washed down, it's not even cleaned off. It has bloody drainage on it."
"They could be at risk of getting hepatitis, even AIDS," added Vasikonis.
Both of these nurses said, they quit to protect their own medical licenses, stunned by what they called a meat-market style of assembly-line abortions.
Vasikonis said, "I felt I could be held liable if a patient was harmed."
"Planned Parenthood needs to close its doors, it's needs to be cleaned up, the staff needs to be trained, said Werbrich."
In Delaware, abortion clinics are not subject to routine inspections. The state only steps in when they have a patient complaint. Planned Parenthood is essentially in charge of inspecting itself.
Mary Peterson from the Delaware Department of Health and Human Services said, "I am not going to lie to you, we don't have the manpower to do routine inspections."
She says, her investigators went into the facility in October of last year after a complaint.
We asked Peterson, did they find any problems with the sterilization of utensils. She told us "no, no." We then asked if blood was being left after one patient had surgery and another one came in, she replied, "absolutely none."
Investigators say, they have not found evidence to support the claims raised by Vasikonis and Werbrich.
Since January 4th, five patients allegedly have been rushed from the facility to the emergency room, again placing the clinic in the spotlight.
Peterson says, it raises concerns and they are in the process of looking into what is causing the issues to occur.
Action News has learned during our investigation that one doctor and two more nurses at the clinic have mysteriously left.
Planned Parenthood would not confirm if they were fired or resigned.
Seems Pennsylvania isn't the only state that fails to protect the health and safety of women.
speechlesstx
Apr 11, 2013, 07:39 AM
I love a liberal with a conscience (as opposed to "the conscience of a liberal (http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/)"). Once again Kirsten Powers gets it, and since no one but tom seems to care you're getting some of the details.
Philadelphia abortion clinic horror: Column
Kirsten Powers 9:01p.m. EDT April 10, 2013
We've forgotten what belongs on Page One. (http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2013/04/10/philadelphia-abortion-clinic-horror-column/2072577/)
Infant beheadings. (http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/454360/20130407/philadelphia-abortion-clinic-trial-details-babies-beheaded.htm) Severed baby feet in jars (http://articles.philly.com/2013-03-21/news/37875837_1_kermit-gosnell-adrienne-moton-gosnell-s-women-s-medical-society). A child screaming after it was delivered alive (http://www.delawareonline.com/article/20130408/news/130408013/abortion-clinic-worker-testifies-doctor-s-trial) during an abortion procedure. Haven't heard about these sickening accusations?
It's not your fault. Since the murder trial of Pennsylvania abortion doctor Kermit Gosnell began March 18, there has been precious little coverage of the case that should be on every news show and front page. The revolting revelations of Gosnell's former staff, who have been testifying to what they witnessed and did during late-term abortions, should shock anyone with a heart.
NBC-10 Philadelphia reported that (http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Shouting-Match-Gosnell-House-of-Horrors-Trial-200081171.html), Stephen Massof, a former Gosnell worker, "described how he snipped the spinal cords of babies, calling it, 'literally a beheading. It is separating the brain from the body." One former worker, Adrienne Moton, testified (http://articles.philly.com/2013-03-21/news/37875993_1_adrienne-moton-gosnell-s-women-s-medical-society-abortion-procedure) that Gosnell taught her his "snipping" technique to use on infants born alive.
Massof (http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Gosnell-Abortion-Clinic-Trial-Unlicensed-Doctor-Chaos-201515061.html), who, like other witnesses (http://articles.philly.com/2013-03-21/news/37875993_1_adrienne-moton-gosnell-s-women-s-medical-society-abortion-procedure), has himself pleaded guilty to serious crimes, testified (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_ABORTION_CLINIC_DEATHS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT) "It would rain fetuses. Fetuses (http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Gosnell-Abortion-Clinic-Trial-Unlicensed-Doctor-Chaos-201515061.html) and blood all over the place." Here is the headline the Associated Press put on a story about his testimony that he saw 100 babies born and then snipped: "Staffer describes chaos at PA abortion clinic."
"Chaos" isn't really the story here. Butchering babies that were already born and were older than the state's 24-week limit for abortions is the story. There is a reason the late Democratic senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan called this procedure infanticide. (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1915&dat=19960515&id=wgQhAAAAIBAJ&sjid=5HUFAAAAIBAJ&pg=1528,2913691)
Planned Parenthood recently claimed that the possibility of infants surviving late-term abortions was "highly unusual (http://www.ppaction.org/site/PageServer?pagename=fl_fappa_website_news&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=tweet&utm_content=FAPPA&utm_campaign=ppact)." The Gosnell case suggests otherwise.
Regardless of such quibbles, about whether Gosnell was killing the infants one second after they left the womb instead of partially inside or completely inside the womb — as in a routine late-term abortion — is merely a matter of geography. That one is murder and the other is a legal procedure is morally irreconcilable.
A Lexis-Nexis search shows none of the news shows on the three major national television networks has mentioned the Gosnell trial in the last three months. The exception is when Wall Street Journal columnist Peggy Noonan hijacked a segment (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/51385382/ns/meet_the_press-transcripts/t/march-chuck-schumer-jeff-flake-david-axelrod-tom-davis-eugene-robinson-peggy-noonan-rob-reiner-brian-brown-al-sharpton-pete-williams/#.UWXo8aLvuSo) on Meet the Press meant to foment outrage over an anti-abortion rights law in some backward red state.
The Washington Post has not published original reporting on this during the trial and The New York Times saw fit to run one original story on A-17 on the trial's first day. They've been silent ever since, despite headline-worthy testimony.
Let me state the obvious. This should be front page news. When Rush Limbaugh attacked Sandra Fluke, there was non-stop media hysteria. The venerable NBC Nightly News' Brian Williams intoned (http://newsbusters.org/blogs/brent-baker/2012/03/01/nbc-firestorm-outrage-women-after-crude-tirade-rush-limbaugh), "A firestorm of outrage from women after a crude tirade from Rush Limbaugh," as he teased a segment on the brouhaha. Yet, accusations of babies having their heads severed — a major human rights story if there ever was one — doesn't make the cut.
You don't have to oppose abortion rights to find late-term abortion abhorrent or to find the Gosnell trial eminently newsworthy. This is not about being "pro-choice" or "pro-life." It's about basic human rights.
The deafening silence of too much of the media, once a force for justice in America, is a disgrace.
Kirsten Powers is a member of USA TODAY's Board of Contributors, a Fox News political analyst and columnist for The Daily Beast.
Everyone knows about the mythical war on women. Everyone knows about Seamus the dog. A butcher in Philadelphia, two states that don't protect women's health and safety? Nothing, zero, zilch from the mainstream media. Where the hell is the outrage?
speechlesstx
Apr 12, 2013, 04:47 AM
Ugh...
Gosnell Witness: I assisted in abortions while in high school (http://articles.philly.com/2013-04-11/news/38466364_1_tina-baldwin-medical-society-clinic-gosnells)
By Joseph A. Slobodzian, INQUIRER STAFF WRITER
Posted: April 11, 2013
Like a lot of high school sophomores, 15-year-old Ashley Baldwin found a job.
Baldwin, however, wasn't working retail or fast-food. She was doing ultrasounds, administering intravenous medicine and, ultimately, assisting in abortions performed by West Philadelphia doctor Kermit Gosnell.
Baldwin, now 22, and the mother of a two-year-old, today told a Philadelphia jury hearing Gosnell's murder trial of her unusual hands-on medical apprenticeship.
She also told of seeing at least five aborted babies moving, breathing and, in one case, "screeching," after procedures at Gosnells' Women's Medical Society clinic at 3801 Lancaster Ave.
"They looked just like regular babies," Baldwin said to Assistant District Attorney Joanne Pescatore.
Baldwin said one baby she saw was so big that Gosnell joked that "this baby is going to walk me home."
Baldwin was hired by Gosnell in September 2006. She had an in: her mother, Tina Baldwin, had worked there since 2001.
Ashley Baldwin has not been charged with any crime. Tina Baldwin, 47, has pleaded guilty to racketeering, conspiracy and corrupting a minor - her daughter - and will testify later today.
Gosnell, 72, is also charged with corrupting a minor involving Ashley Baldwin.
Like other Gosnell workers, Baldwin testified that Gosnell taught her the rudiments of using an ultrasound, administering IV medicine and some lab work. She said she was working legally because, as a doctor, he had "grandfathered her in."
Starting answering phones, Baldwin quickly moved up in the organization. By the time authorities raided the clinic in February 2010, Baldwin was going to school and working as much as 50 hours a week in the clinic, sometimes into the early morning.
Baldwin said she assisted Gosnell in abortions, applying pressure to the mother's abdomen, handing the doctor instruments and equipment.
She said she also saw Gosnell use scissors to "snip" the neck of newborns who were moving after the procedure.
Crickets chirping...
tomder55
Apr 12, 2013, 05:08 AM
I'll give credit to Kirsten Powers . One of the few libs that think this is news worthy.
speechlesstx
Apr 12, 2013, 06:46 AM
Yep, the media doesn't want anyone to know real, live children are born from abortions just before getting whacked, that high school girls who should be studying and enjoying their teen years might be a part of it, that women may be risking their lives with these 'doctors' and that the agencies charged with protecting them look the other way - BY DESIGN - as the Grand Jury stated.
smoothy
Apr 12, 2013, 10:19 AM
Notice how the lefties are essentially absent from commenting on this? I guess its because they condone this sort of thing.
speechlesstx
Apr 12, 2013, 10:45 AM
Notice how the lefties are essentially absent from commenting on this? I guess its because they condone this sort of thing.
I'm sure it's because of what they've have to admit.
smoothy
Apr 12, 2013, 11:15 AM
I'm sure it's because of what they've have to admit.
Exactly... like how they defend the murder of unborn babies... and even newborn babies... while defending the right to life of mass murderers.
tomder55
Apr 12, 2013, 11:33 AM
Apparently if you want the media's attention when you mass murder children, you have to use a gun... scissors, scalpels, bare hands, etc. just aren't news worthy... even if the murders number in the thousands...
smoothy
Apr 12, 2013, 11:39 AM
Liberals are allowed to do anything.. they want by the left... absolutely anything they want. Including mass murder.
speechlesstx
Apr 12, 2013, 01:39 PM
This is the media section at the butcher of Philadelphia's trial.
http://wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com/blogs/getreligion/files/2013/04/Gosnellmediaseating.jpg
speechlesstx
Apr 12, 2013, 01:54 PM
Kirsten Powers (https://twitter.com/kirstenpowers10)is still on the job...
Tuttyd
Apr 12, 2013, 02:46 PM
Notice how the lefties are essentially absent from commenting on this? I guess its because they condone this sort of thing.
You guess wrong.
The whole thing is very sad on a number of levels.
paraclete
Apr 12, 2013, 05:08 PM
Since you consider me a lefty I will comment even though the subject sickens me. I am against abortion. I believe it to be first degree murder and I think not only the abortionist but also the woman and any accomplice should be imprisioned. Only then would this rotten practice be stamped out apparently there are 3000 abortions a day in the USA
speechlesstx
Apr 13, 2013, 04:25 AM
Thanks Tut and Clete, maybe others will chime in now? Not holding my breath...
speechlesstx
Apr 13, 2013, 04:37 AM
As I was saying earlier, I suspect some are remaining silent on this because of what they would have to admit. It puts a rather large kink in their arguments, such has been used against me here. Here's the first (http://t.co/oTaOE9es3K)...
Where is that same assiduousness on the Gosnell case, a case that shocks the conscience? This story -- which if nothing else suggests that live births do, in fact, happen during late- term abortions -- upsets a particular narrative about the reality of certain types of abortion, and that reality isn’t something some pro-choice absolutists want to discuss.
More to come...
speechlesstx
Apr 14, 2013, 05:29 AM
Ugh...
Kermit Gosnell's Website Openly Offered "Late Terminations," Sedation Choices (http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski/gosnells-website-openly-offered-late-terminations-sedation-c?s=mobile)
Looking out for women's health in PA.
excon
Apr 14, 2013, 05:48 AM
Hello:
It's been suggested that I support this horrid doctor. I don't. It's also been suggested that abortion LEADS to this kind of savagery. It doesn't.
excon
talaniman
Apr 14, 2013, 06:01 AM
I just want to know how he got away with his atrocities for so long.
speechlesstx
Apr 14, 2013, 06:02 AM
Hello:
It's been suggested that I support this horrid doctor. I don't. It's also been suggested that abortion LEADS to this kind of savagery. It doesn't.
excon
I made no such suggestion about anyone. But, a culture that has dehumanized babies and made abortion an untouchable human right DOES lead to this kind of savagery. There is no other way to explain the government agency charged with regulation turning a blind eye to such abuse "by design," and a media that did all it could to avoid the story which should have been on page one.
excon
Apr 14, 2013, 06:54 AM
Hello again,
If we followed the tenets of Roe, there wouldn't BE live births. That there are, is a problem with TODAY'S lawmakers - not Roe v. Wade. The word viability was KEY in that decision..
excon
speechlesstx
Apr 14, 2013, 07:05 AM
I just want to know how he got away with his atrocities for so long.
I believe I've said it several times, the PA Dept of Health's neglect of the abuses was "by design." The people charged with protecting these women turned their heads.
talaniman
Apr 14, 2013, 07:39 AM
I fully agree, and hope this doctor isn't the only one held accountable for this tragic outrage.
speechlesstx
Apr 14, 2013, 08:36 AM
I fully agree, and hope this doctor isn't the only one held accountable for this tragic outrage.
Glad we're on the same page here.
tomder55
Apr 14, 2013, 09:57 AM
That word viability ;a subjective term if there ever was one.. is the basis for more restrictive abortion laws . You think not ? It is the advances in medical science that allow viability at a much younger age of development ,putting that lie to rest that an unborn baby is just an appendage of the mother .
All the legality did was replace the coat hanger with the scalpel ,surgical scissor ,vacuum .Here are 2 popular procedures for carrying out 2nd trimester murders :
D&E" (dilation and evacuation). The physician inserts a long toothed clamp through the woman's vagina into the uterus. She/he grabs body parts of the fetus at random, breaks them from the body and pulls them out. Finally, the head is crushed and extracted. Finally, the placenta and any remaining parts of the fetus are suctioned from the uterus.
"D&X" (dilation and extraction) The woman's cervix is dilated. If necessary, the fetus is rotated until it is facing feet downwards. The surgeon reaches into the uterus and pulls the fetus' body, with the exception of its head, out of the woman's body. Surgical scissors are inserted into the base of the fetal skull, and withdrawn. A suction tube is inserted and the fetus' brains are removed through aspiration. This partially collapses the fetal skull. The fetus is then fully removed from the woman's body.
The difference between Gosnell the butcher ,and Gosnell the compassionate caring physician is a matter of a few inches of woman's body that the murdered baby has to travel.
tomder55
Apr 14, 2013, 11:35 AM
Richard Fernandez @ Belmont Club comments on PJ Media's editor Roger Simon's conversion from a " pro-choice " position after seeing a report about the butchery of Gosnell .
Roger L. Simon » GosnellGate: It's the A-Word (http://pjmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2013/04/13/gosnellgate/)
To understand 3801 Lancaster street maybe we should go back to Moloch rather than to the system of industrial execution that flourished 70 years ago. Child sacrifice — “the ritualistic killing of children in order to please, propitiate or force a god or supernatural beings” was long practiced by the Incas, Aztec, many cultures in the Middle East, North Africa and in pagan Europe. The question is: why? What was its purpose that Moloch should be worshipped thus in his many names?
One theory is that child sacrifice was a sacramental device used to kill what we used to call “God” Himself. Moloch's problem was how to get everyone to belong to him and to no other. His answer was to arrange a radical crossing over, an extreme commitment, a journey beyond the pale so shocking that to embark upon it was to go beyond point of no return. There was no going back to God after that. And once you had offered your child to Moloch there was no point refusing him anything else.
Killing your own child – just as acquiescing to killing the Jews was to the German public — was a form of enlistment by complicity. It is the last and most decisive step in the extinction of freedom. Though apparently practiced upon the child the real target of abasement is the mother. And by extension it is all of us. That is the shame the conservative pundits felt. Not the shame of sexual guilt. It is the shame of having gone along. By consenting to be an accomplice in the destruction of her own child she binds herself mystically to the doctrine of Moloch. “You are nothing but meat. So take this child and eat. Do this in memory of you.”
Belmont Club » The House on the Corner (http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2013/04/14/the-house-on-the-corner/#more-28398)
speechlesstx
Apr 15, 2013, 04:01 AM
Spot on.
tomder55
Apr 18, 2013, 06:06 AM
Check out this history of our modern day Mengele .
1972, International Planned Parenthood Federation was one of two groups partnering with the country of Bangladesh to bring Dr. Harvey Karman and a small team of “abortion experts,” which included two IPPF doctors, to the newly formed country to commit abortions and train native doctors and paramedics how to commit them.
Abortion was Karman's “consuming passion,” according to Salon, which acknowledged Karman wasn't really any sort of doctor whatsoever but had simply “added a Ph.D. to his name, though his degree came from a dubious Swiss diploma mill.”
Karman was, in fact, a convicted felon, having served 2-1/2 years in prison – until pardoned by then Gov. Jerry Brown – for killing a mother in 1955 while attempting to illegally abort her in a hotel room with a nutcracker.
The Bangladesh incident was over 40 years ago, less than one year before the Supreme Court would make abortion legal throughout the U.S.
But even then the mainstream media was in the tank for abortion. You would never know by the Los Angeles Times' glowing April 5, 1972, report that Karman's experimental use on Bangladeshi rape victims of his new late-term abortion contraption, called the “super coil,” was a disaster:
Essentially, the Karman method, which has gained wide acceptance internationally, permits abortions of pregnancies up to the seventh month – or later – without the use of either anesthetics or standard metal surgical instruments….
In advanced pregnancies up to the seventh month, Karman inserts one or more small, equally simplified plastic coils into the uterus. When exposed to moisture, the coils expand, inducing a miscarriage within 10-20 hours….
That was the spin. Here's what the super coil actually was, explained in the grand jury report on Kermit Gosnell, who I'll get to in a minute, taken from testimony by Dr. Randy Hutchins, who once worked for Gosnell:
[T]here was a device that he and a psychologist [Karman] were working on that was supposed to be plastic – basically plastic razors that were formed into a ball. All right. They were coated into a gel, so that they would remain closed. These would be inserted into the woman's uterus. And after several hours of body temperature, it would then – the gel would melt and these 97 things would spring open, supposedly cutting up the fetus, and the fetus would be expelled.
The problem was that they never tested it. They didn't test it on any animals. They never did any – any – any other human trials. This was not something that was sanctioned by the FDA. This was just something that he decided – he and this guy decided they were going to use on these women.
What women? On Mother's Day 1972 Karman followed up his Bangladesh experiment in America, with the help of Kermit Gosnell .
On Mother's Day weekend in 1972, Karman, other activists, and 15 women in their second trimester of pregnancy boarded a bus in Chicago and headed for Philadelphia, where Gosnell had agreed to give them super-coil abortions at his clinic, then at 133 S. 36th St. The women, who were poor, had been unable to get abortions in Chicago or New York.
Gosnell's super-coil abortions – filmed and later shown on a New York City educational-TV program, thanks to Karman – turned out badly.
The federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the Philadelphia Department of Public Health subsequently did an investigation that detailed serious complications suffered by nine of the 15 women, including one who needed a hysterectomy.
The complications included a punctured uterus, hemorrhage, infections, and retained fetal remains.
The CDC researchers recommended strict controls on any future testing of the device – the beginning of “increasing regulations on the development of reproductive technologies,” Tunc wrote.
Karman spent two years in court battles in Philadelphia. He was convicted of practicing medicine without a license, but a Common Pleas Court judge overturned the conviction in 1974, saying then-District Attorney Arlen Specter had failed to show which women Karman had treated.
Gosnell – who testified that Karman had done an “innocuous” part of the procedures but not fetal extractions – was not charged with anything.
Also read this October 12, 1972, Gettysburg Times account. I contacted WNET, the public television station in New York that filmed what came to be known as the Mother's Day Massacre. I'd love to see that archived program. I will certainly alert readers if I get a response.
Bottom line: Planned Parenthood was perfectly willing to treat impoverished women of color as guinea pigs for an experimental late-term abortion gadget, no different than Kermit Gosnell at the time. (All of Gosnell's super-coil patients were black and poor.)
I wrote in my title that Planned Parenthood was separated by one degree from Gosnell.
Actually, not.
Planned Parenthood's one degree of separation from Gosnell's 1972 "Mother's Day Massacre" (http://www.jillstanek.com/2013/04/planned-parenthoods-one-degree-of-separation-from-gosnells-1972-mothers-day-massacre/)
And yet he remained a licensed doctor eligible to perform this legal butchery . Nothing else needs to be said. The nation was sold on the narrative that legal abortion was the safe alternative to the coat hanger days. I see no difference.
speechlesstx
Apr 18, 2013, 06:48 AM
But tom, ensuring safety in the abortionist's office is a "phony concern (http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-01-03/opinions/36211222_1_abortion-clinics-hallways-and-doorways-first-trimester-abortions)," and any law that recognizes the humanity of the fetus or restricts abortion in any way is just another way to "punish women (http://www.now.org/press/08-07/08-03.html)."
In fact, it's the pro-life crowd's fault that a butcher like Gosnell could have any patients at all because hey, medical standards make abortion more expensive (http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2011/01/19/crappy_abortion_providers_thrive_in_politically_fr aught_environments.html). But there's no money in abortion, right? Maybe Eric Holder would know (http://www.lifenews.com/2012/11/09/eric-holder-failed-to-disclose-wifes-abortion-clinic/).
Heck, you can even lose your medical license and still perform abortions, which as we know rarely result in live births (http://www.lifenews.com/2013/04/05/1270-babies-born-alive-after-failed-abortions-in-the-united-states/).
Well, the abortion absolutists should be ASHAMED.
Gosnell Worker: Toilets Backed Up With Body Parts From Abortions (http://www.lifenews.com/2013/04/16/gosnell-worker-toilets-backed-up-with-body-parts-from-abortions/)
Tuttyd
Apr 19, 2013, 01:43 AM
Richard Fernandez @ Belmont Club comments on PJ Media's editor Roger Simon's conversion from a " pro-choice " position after seeing a report about the butchery of Gosnell .
Roger L. Simon » GosnellGate: It's the A-Word (http://pjmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2013/04/13/gosnellgate/)
Belmont Club » The House on the Corner (http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2013/04/14/the-house-on-the-corner/#more-28398)
As with most conversions I think the author is somewhat naïve in his interpretation. If we extract ourselves from the ancient world for a moment we can come to the realization that despite what the author says, Moloch does not have a problem. We have the problem. The Enlightenment message is clearly written. It is our ability to reason that has created this society.
Unfortunately, freedom comes with a dilemma. The dilemma taking the form of a question. Which 'gods' are we prepared to prostrate ourselves before? The materialistic 'god' or perhaps some higher entity? Perhaps on the other hand, someone would only do this type of thing because they are worshiping something other than materialism.
We will continue to fail because, as with the author of the article, we are free to choose some arbitrary outlook as a possible explanation for the problem. This is the beauty of freedom on this type of scale. We are never burdened by the consequences of our decisions.
tomder55
Apr 19, 2013, 03:30 AM
Moloch does not have a problem. We have the problem Moloch is as much a false god as the modern 'material' god . Moloch’s problem was how to get everyone to belong to him and to no other.
Perhaps on the other hand, someone would only do this type of thing because they are worshiping something other than materialism.
Substitute Moloch for Satan if it makes more sense . Child sacrifice is pure evil because it destroys pure innocence .Hell of a price to pay for convenience.
God does not demand that we sacrifice our children for God ;instead God's son was sacrficed for us .
Tuttyd
Apr 19, 2013, 04:05 AM
Moloch is as much a false god as the modern 'material' god . Moloch's problem was how to get everyone to belong to him and to no other.
Substitute Moloch for Satan if it makes more sense . Child sacrifice is pure evil because it destroys pure innocence .Hell of a price to pay for convenience.
God does not demand that we sacrifice our children for God ;instead God's son was sacrficed for us .
This has nothing to do with the supernatural. It is a cop-out. It is convenient to explain the whole dashedly thing in this way.
paraclete
Apr 19, 2013, 04:07 AM
If you want to get all religious over this, it is clear; Satan, as always, has found a way to slaughter the innocents and it is easy because the logic is simple. Just get someone to think the solution is all about me, that god that has replaced God. This is the Me generation, they worship themselves and have that three headed god, Me, Myself and I and governments have been stupid enough to listen to them, let me restate that, politicians have been stupid enough to listen to them. It is time we rejected the politics of stupidity
speechlesstx
Apr 19, 2013, 04:33 AM
Someone needs to be burdened by the consequences of making our children disposable.
Tuttyd
Apr 19, 2013, 04:46 AM
Someone needs to be burdened by the consequences of making our children disposable.
No thanks. It's too depressing reading about how well others do it.
NeedKarma
Apr 19, 2013, 04:49 AM
The weird thing is that it's the religious who get abortions too.
smoothy
Apr 19, 2013, 05:04 AM
The weird thing is that it's the religious who get abortions too.
Most people that get abortions aren't religious.
In fact... Atheists are the biggest advocates of baby murder.
tomder55
Apr 19, 2013, 05:08 AM
This has nothing to do with the supernatural. It is a cop-out. It is convenient to explain the whole dashedly thing in this way.
Of course, it's easy to make a rational explanation for murdering babies...
NeedKarma
Apr 19, 2013, 05:10 AM
Most people that get abortions aren't religious.That would be a false claim.
tomder55
Apr 19, 2013, 05:10 AM
If you want to get all religious over this, it is clear; Satan, as always, has found a way to slaughter the innocents and it is easy because the logic is simple. Just get someone to think the solution is all about me, that god that has replaced God. This is the Me generation, they worship themselves and have that three headed god, Me, Myself and I yes ,that was the key theme of the Richard Fernandez blog post.
speechlesstx
Apr 19, 2013, 05:12 AM
The weird thing is that it's the religious who get abortions too.
That's not the weird thing.
Tuttyd
Apr 19, 2013, 05:20 AM
Of course, it's easy to make a rational explanation for murdering babies...
In exactly the same way as it is easy to make a convenient supernatural explanation.
speechlesstx
Apr 19, 2013, 05:23 AM
That would be a false claim.
Even if you could show that it's irrelevant.
tomder55
Apr 19, 2013, 05:24 AM
In exactly the same way as it is easy to make a convenient supernatural explanation.
Yup ; I've heard the "rational " explanations.. eugenics etc. the 20th century is stained with the blood of millions as a result and we are well on our way to surpassing that . I think the supernatural explanations make much more sense. Evil exists and is prevailing .
NeedKarma
Apr 19, 2013, 05:26 AM
Even if you could show that it's irrelevant.It is but you've conveniently have the blinders on again.
Tuttyd
Apr 19, 2013, 05:37 AM
yup ; I've heard the "rational " explanations ..eugenics etc. the 20th century is stained with the blood of millions as a result and we are well on our way to surpassing that . I think the supernatural explanations make much more sense. Evil exists and is prevailing .
I'm glad you used "rational" in inverted commas. This includes may possibilities. Science not being the least of them. Rather convenient when you can claim that your reject humanism, but embrace the rational at the same time. Sounds like perfect ideologue to me.
Tut
paraclete
Apr 19, 2013, 05:56 AM
Of course, it's easy to make a rational explanation for murdering babies...
Yes so let's stop doing it and tell women to be responsible
speechlesstx
Apr 19, 2013, 06:12 AM
It is but you've conveniently have the blinders on again.
Dude, it's not me wearing blinders, it's your narrow mindedness toward people of faith and avoidance of what's relevant in this discussion. Do you have a comment on the OP or are you just here to hate on the religious?
speechlesstx
Apr 19, 2013, 06:15 AM
I'm glad you used "rational" in inverted commas. This includes may possibilities. Science not being the least of them. Rather convenient when you can claim that your reject humanism, but embrace the rational at the same time. Sounds like perfect ideologue to me.
Tut
The ideologues are the abortion absolutists that want to sweep Gosnell and the horrors of abortion under the rug.
Tuttyd
Apr 19, 2013, 06:44 AM
The ideologues are the abortion absolutists that want to sweep Gosnell and the horrors of abortion under the rug.
Yes, I would say this correct. My fear is that both sides are susceptible to this problem. However, you strike me as someone who a least considers the practical implications of a problem.
speechlesstx
Apr 19, 2013, 06:51 AM
Well thank you.
talaniman
Apr 19, 2013, 07:08 AM
I want all the facts, but I stop short at the notion this monster is typical of the free choice crowd. He is a fringe extreme at best, and a criminal at worst. Who aided and abetted his butchery is my concern.
The hell with the politics.
speechlesstx
Apr 19, 2013, 07:27 AM
I don't think any reasonable person is arguing that Gosnell's butchery is typical and I've already noted several times that the PA health dept's blindness was "by design" according to the grand jury. The regulators turning away is aiding and abetting in my book.
I'm glad you're outraged by it as well, but I'm waiting on abortion apologists to answer the deeper questions this case.raises as well.
tomder55
Apr 19, 2013, 07:38 AM
You hope he's an outlier. Evidently so is Dr. Leroy Carhart.
Doctor Death: 29-Year-Old Patient Dies After Late-Term Abortion in Maryland UPDATE: Complete Media Blackout by Feminists, Major News Organizations : The Other McCain (http://theothermccain.com/2013/02/08/doctor-death-29-year-old-patient-dies-after-late-term-abortion-in-maryland/)
In recognition of his commitment to women's reproductive health, Physicians for Reproductive Choice and Health honored Dr. Carhart with the 2009 William K. Rashbaum, MD, Abortion Provider Award.
Physicians for Reproductive Health | LeRoy Carhart, MD (http://prh.org/physicians-story/leroy-carhart-md/)
He has been awarded many times by groups like NARAL and NOW for advancing women's health . Yeah ,dying on the abortion table ,that's the ticket for advancing women's health !
talaniman
Apr 19, 2013, 08:16 AM
I will be honest Speech, its hard to wrap my head around a female that could afford his services never exercised her rights a whole lot sooner, and a whole lot safer. I just don't get any female not knowing a month or so from conception that a decision has to be made and doctors already sought out.
I feel his clients were desperate, and very ill informed, making them easy targets of exploitation. He was a predator in every sense of the word, and no doubt there are many like him, on many levels. I just think any choice you make in life has consequences, or blessings.
speechlesstx
Apr 19, 2013, 11:30 AM
I tend to agree most abortion patients are ill informed, this thread is to inform.
Kareema Cross worked for Kermit Gosnell for a harrowing four years helping with abortion procedures amid conditions so bad that she snapped photos to document them in 2008 — a year before the death of Karnamaya Mongar — then reported her boss to the authorities under a fictitious name.
But no one listened.
Two years later, authorities raided Gosnell’s clinic thinking it was a pill mill only to discover that it was frightfully so much more (http://www.lifenews.com/2013/04/19/gosnell-worker-baby-surviving-abortion-swam-in-toilet-trying-to-live/).
Yet another failure of those charged with protecting these women and children.
Read on if you dare...
While she worked for Gosnell, Cross testified that at least twice a day, six days a week, at least two babies would “precipitate” or be birthed before Gosnell ever arrived. She said “Dr. Steve,” Steven Massof, an unlicensed medical school graduate with a ghoulish curiosity about abortions, would be there to snip the babies’ necks. She saw him do it around 50 times. When babies “precipitated” in Gosnell’s presence, he would do the dirty deed himself.
Cross sometimes worked from 8:00 am until 3:00 the next morning helping with procedures. She routinely saw babies born alive, moving, breathing, and moaning.
Once in Gosnell’s absence, Cross saw a large baby delivered into the toilet. She saw his little arms and legs moving in a swimming motion as he struggled to get out of the toilet bowl. Cross held her hands 12-16 inches apart to demonstrate to the jury how big the baby was. Adrienne Moton, who was the first worker to testify for the prosecution, snipped the baby’s neck in front of the mother while she sat bleeding into the toilet. Moton then took the body away and put it into a container.
In 2009, Cross testified that another co-worker, Linda Williams, called Cross over to see a baby that had just been born. Cross saw the baby’s chest heaving up and down in steady breathing motions. Linda reached down and lifted the baby’s hand up, but the newborn pulled it away on its own strength. Cross said she saw the baby breathing for about 20 minutes before Williams murdered the child by severing its spinal cord with scissors. Cross demonstrated again with her hands that the baby was about a foot long.
It's time to end the lies...
speechlesstx
Apr 21, 2013, 05:17 AM
Gloria Steinem has spoken (http://articles.philly.com/2013-04-18/news/38619220_1_gosnell-trial-abortion-issue-kermit-gosnell)...
NOTED FEMINIST Gloria Steinem took the podium at the National Constitution Center on Tuesday night, addressing a crowd of 500 spanning four generations at Planned Parenthood Southeastern Pennsylvania's annual Spring Gathering.
Steinem's talk came at a time when illegal-abortion doc Kermit Gosnell's trial is highlighting the uglier side of the abortion issue in Philadelphia, and as state legislators are considering measures to limit abortion access under future government-funded health-insurance plans.
Organizers said the event - and Steinem herself - would move the public's focus to the organization's work.
"The Gosnell trial has shifted the focus off the high-quality services we provide," said Dayle Steinberg, the organization's president and chief executive. "These are criminal, horrendous . . . acts and should be appropriately punished."
Steinberg said that when Gosnell was in practice, women would sometimes come to Planned Parenthood for services after first visiting Gosnell's West Philadelphia clinic, and would complain to staff about the conditions there.
"We would always encourage them to report it to the Department of Health," Steinberg said as she sat with Steinem before Tuesday's events.
Of the Gosnell trial, Steinem added: "It makes more clear why you need Planned Parenthood."
Excuse me? Gosnell's victims would complain to PP and PP never reported it? That says a lot but it certainly does not make clear why PP is so crucial. If anything it makes PP complicit in decades of abuse. Read on...
Her speech, Steinem said beforehand, would aim to "remind us that reproductive freedom is a fundamental human right."
Steinem called the legislation being considered in Pennsylvania's Legislature "self-defeating." The bills would limit abortion covered by federally subsidized insurance to cases of rape, incest or those that are life-threatening.
"It's putting women's health at risk," she said. "It's like saying, 'You have freedom of speech, but only if you say one thing.' "
Steinem's address was punctuated at several points by bursts of applause and nods of agreement from the audience.
She praised politicians and men in attendance who support women's reproductive rights, but likened the battle to the fight for the right to vote and said she believes it's only about half-finished.
She called reproductive freedom the "key to equalizing males and females," and praised Planned Parenthood and its supporters.
"There's nothing on earth more important than what Planned Parenthood is doing," she said. "It is connected to everything else."
I'm sorry, I'm all for equal pay and all that but does she really believe her own bullsh*t? Do you believe her bullsh*t?
"There's nothing on earth more important" than killing off millions of children? I know a few women who've had abortions that would disagree and tell you it's the most traumatic, gut wrenching thing they'd ever done and there's nothing they regret more.
Time to end this folly and stop believing and promoting this bullsh*t about protecting women's health, everyone that should have been doing just that not only FAILED miserably for over 3 decades, but they covered it up to boot. No excuses.
talaniman
Apr 21, 2013, 05:43 AM
So throw away the cancer screenings, referrals, and check ups with the abortions. Nice strategy. I am sure females will appreciate you for it.
Depression is as common in woman who give birth as those who have had an abortion. And yes PP offers counseling for both scenarios.
speechlesstx
Apr 21, 2013, 05:55 AM
So throw away the cancer screenings, referrals, and check ups with the abortions. Nice strategy. I am sure females will appreciate you for it.
Depression is as common in woman who give birth as those who have had an abortion. And yes PP offers counseling for both scenarios.
We can find other avenues for cancer screenings and such, and I would trust PP for counseling as much as I'd trust them to protect the women of Philadelphia. They FAILED these womem, Tal and then had the audacity to claim that's why they're needed. Don't tap dance around that and the ludicrous claim that there's nothing on earth more important than their work.
tomder55
Apr 21, 2013, 08:07 AM
PP is an abortion providers that maintains other services so as to pick tax payer's pockets. Their screening service is like the olive oil company was for The Godfather... an elaborate front. The heart of their operation remains true to it's founder ,Margaret Sanger's goals... population reduction... especially minority population reduction.
Let me ask this one question... how many women go to PP to delivery a baby to term ? Do they even do referrals for that purpose ? I bet they do referrals for abortion services.
excon
Apr 21, 2013, 08:22 AM
Hello again:
If men had babies, you could get an abortion from the abortion truck, and have lunch while you're at it.
excon
talaniman
Apr 21, 2013, 09:25 AM
PP is an abortion providers that maintains other services so as to pick tax payer's pockets. Their screening service is like the olive oil company was for The Godfather...an elaborate front. The heart of their operation remains true to it's founder ,Margaret Sanger's goals .... population reduction ...especially minority population reduction.
Let me ask this one question...... how many women go to PP to delivery a baby to term ? Do they even do referrals for that purpose ? I bet they do referrals for abortion services.
Look it up and see for yourself and let us know. Its been posted before many times and ignored for the assumption that's all PP does is abortions. That's a convenient argument to condemn the other 97% of its services to women.
And they must be abject failures at stemming the population growths of minorities.
tomder55
Apr 21, 2013, 10:01 AM
Look it up and see for yourself and let us know.
Planned Parenthood does indeed deliver babies…about 330,000 every year. The babies are delivered through a vacuum piece by piece, sucked into a jar, and thrown out as medical waste .
nikkicute
Apr 21, 2013, 12:03 PM
The $1,000,000 Butcher
J7YmrsY4KSY
speechlesstx
Apr 21, 2013, 01:07 PM
Hello again:
If men had babies, you could get an abortion from the abortion truck, and have lunch while you're at it.
excon
Apparently you don't want to have an honest conversation about this.
tomder55
Apr 28, 2013, 02:00 PM
Now we have the butchers of the Bronx.
Abortion clinic employee caught on tape recommending killing infant - NYPOST.com (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/the_truth_about_late_term_abortion_TDW9MnQT0XIQDRy fInpm2L)
.
In an undercover sting operation, a woman who was 23-plus weeks pregnant (abortion is illegal in New York and other states after 24 weeks) secretly recorded the conversations she had in this abortionist's office.
In an exchange laden with euphemisms on both sides to conceal the gruesome nature of the discussion, the pregnant woman wondered aloud what would happen if “it” (her fetus) emerged from her intact and alive.
The employee assigned to take note of medical history reassured the woman, “We never had that for ages” (a seeming admission that a baby did survive abortion at the clinic at least once) but that should “it” “survive this,” “They would still have to put it in like a jar, a container, with solution, and send it to the lab.. . We don't just throw it out in the garbage.”
Oh, and this innocuous-sounding “solution” was, of course, a toxic substance suitable for killing an infant.
“Like, what if it was twitching?” asked the pregnant woman.
“The solution will make it stop,” said the clinic employee. “That's the whole purpose of the solution.. . It will automatically stop. It won't be able to breathe anymore.”
As for any qualms a woman might have about seeing her newborn child being poisoned and drowned in a jar, the employee advised her “patient” not to worry: She'd be under sedation, and the murder would take place in another room anyway.
The employee said, humorously, that “the doctor” is “not going to wake you up and be like, 'Hey, excuse me, you have—' ”
The sentence was left unfinished, too unthinkable even for a euphemism. There's no polite way to say, “You have just given birth, but we will murder the child.”
In fact, when the pregnant woman brought up the idea that, if the abortion failed and resulted in a live birth, “I would have to take it home,” the employee said, “No. That is so illegal! Once was start this, we have to finish it.”
speechlesstx
Apr 29, 2013, 04:36 AM
Illegal to save the baby so they just take it to another room and drown it in chemicals? Almost makes Gosnell snipping the baby's neck look humane.
So when is a baby worth saving?
smoothy
Apr 29, 2013, 05:27 AM
Illegal to save the baby so they just take it to another room and drown it in chemicals? Almost makes Gosnell snipping the baby's neck look humane.
So when is a baby worth saving?To some on the left... its when it turns 18 and is an adult before it has the right to life.
talaniman
Apr 29, 2013, 05:36 AM
Save the mother, and she can save her own baby. The right has it a$$ backward as usual.
smoothy
Apr 29, 2013, 05:40 AM
Save the mother, and she can save her own baby. The right has it a$$ backward as usual.
Hardly... if its capable of surviving outside the womb... its murder to kill it.
speechlesstx
Apr 29, 2013, 06:10 AM
Save the mother, and she can save her own baby. The right has it a$$ backward as usual.
Talk about a$$ backward, when she's at the abortionist's office the mother is in their 'care.' A woman under sedation is kind of at their mercy, dude.
excon
Apr 29, 2013, 06:37 AM
Hello again, Steve:
You appear to be LINKING this crime to legal abortion. That's like linking a bank withdrawal to a robbery..
excon
speechlesstx
Apr 29, 2013, 07:06 AM
Hello again, Steve:
You appear to be LINKING this crime to legal abortion. That's like linking a bank withdrawal to a robbery..
Excon
Not at all, I am trying to have an honest discussion but you aren't up for that. It's obvious that more children survive abortion than you're side admit. It's obvious that more abortionists are providing late term abortions than your side will admit, and it's more than obvious that your side doesn't believe these children deserve medical care. From the PP rep in Florida that could never think of a time a child should receive medical care, to Gosnell and the other abortionists mentioned in this thread that just whack 'em if they survive even six months into the pregnancy. These babies being killed are more developed than my niece, now 13, who weighed 1 lb 8 ounces when she was born.
And yet more abortionists willing to kill the baby are surfacing... (http://www.liveaction.org/press/undercover-investigation-reveals-how-leading-d-c-abortion-doctor-would-leave-babies-born-alive-to-die/)
Arlington, VA: Live Action today released a second undercover video revealing how leading D.C. late-term abortion doctor Cesare Santengelo would leave a baby struggling for life after a failed abortion to die. The video is the second in a series of undercover videos, found at Inhuman: Undercover in America’s Late-Term Abortion Industry (http://www.liveaction.org/inhuman), involving a number of late-term abortion clinics engaging in illegal and inhuman practices, as well as explaining in graphic terms what happens to the victims of late-term abortion.
“Hopefully we’ll get this pregnancy out intact, but it doesn’t always happen that way,” Washington, D.C. abortion doctor Cesare Santangelo tells an undercover Live Action investigator who is 24 weeks pregnant. “I try and sever the umbilical cord first, and we wait for that to stop pulsing, and this way the fetus is expired first.”
When asked by the undercover investigator what would happen if the baby were to survive the abortion, Doctor Santangelo responds:
“Technically – you know, legally we would be obligated to help it, you know, to survive. But, you know, it probably wouldn’t. It’s all in how vigorously you do things to help a fetus survive at this point. Let’s say you went into labor, the membranes ruptured, and you delivered before we got to the termination part of the procedure here, you know? Then we would do things – we would – we would not help it. We wouldn’t intubate. It would be, you know, uh, a person, a terminal person in the hospital, let’s say, that had cancer, you know? You wouldn’t do any extra procedures to help that person survive. Like ‘do not resuscitate’ orders. We would do the same things here.”
At least this one gives you an excuse, it's like a DNR, except it isn't.
excon
Apr 29, 2013, 07:14 AM
Hello again, Steve:
I am trying to have an honest discussion but you aren't up for that.
I'm NOT sure what discussion you're looking for. This bastard is a criminal and should be in jail. What's to discuss? What OTHER law abiding doctors do?? Who cares?
Excon
speechlesstx
Apr 29, 2013, 07:18 AM
Hello again, Steve:
I'm NOT sure what discussion you're looking for. This bastard is a criminal and should be in jail. What's to discuss? What OTHER law abiding doctors do??? Who cares?
excon
Who cares? Obviously not you, not the media, not Planned Parenthood, not the president, not most anyone that's supposedly looking out for women and children. When is it not OK to murder a baby, ex? Why is no one outraged at the information that's finally coming out? The abortion industry and their enablers have been lying to us for decades, why doesn't that pi$$ you off, don't you care about these women and their children?
talaniman
Apr 29, 2013, 07:38 AM
The criminals are the liars, and the greedy. I know women who would be dead had they not found out they had cancer early enough to have a fighting chance at life through PP. I could be sympathetic to your abortion stance if you weren't so gung ho to stop good work that's needed by poor females in your zeal to stop abortions. Don't you care about treating cancer, or STD's?
But you make a good case for everyone having insurance. So stop trying to use this criminal to push that all abortions are done by evil people.
Oh wait, that's exactly what you are trying to do. Everybody is a lying criminal except people who defend conservative views.
excon
Apr 29, 2013, 07:40 AM
Hello again, Steve:
The abortion industry and their enablers have been lying to us for decades
One criminal is NOT an abortion industry. But, CONTROLLING the uterus of EVERY women in this great country of ours, is ANYTHING but small government... It's HUGE, MONSTROUSLY LARGE government... It's akin to a POLICE STATE!
But, you're FINE with letting the banks have their way with us.
DUDE!
Excon
speechlesstx
Apr 29, 2013, 08:20 AM
The criminals are the liars, and the greedy. I know women who would be dead had they not found out they had cancer early enough to have a fighting chance at life through PP. I could be sympathetic to your abortion stance if you weren't so gung ho to stop good work that's needed by poor females in your zeal to stop abortions. Don't you care about treating cancer, or STD's?
I already answered that silly question. Abortions and health care don't have to go hand in hand. Whatever PP may do right does not redeem them from all the harm they cause.
But you make a good case for everyone having insurance. So stop trying to use this criminal to push that all abortions are done by evil people.
Oh wait, that's exactly what you are trying to do. Everybody is a lying criminal except people who defend conservative views.
All the deflection in the world won't change the focus of this post. When does a baby deserve medical care and why has the abortion industry AND their regulators been covering for these butchers?
speechlesstx
Apr 29, 2013, 08:25 AM
Hello again, Steve:
One criminal is NOT an abortion industry. But, CONTROLLING the uterus of EVERY women in this great country of ours, is ANYTHING but small government... It's HUGE, MONSTROUSLY LARGE government... It's akin to a POLICE STATE!
But, you're FINE with letting the banks have their way with us.
DUDE!
excon
If you can't argue on the facts and stay on topic then why waste my time? This is not about the size of government, banks or controlling a woman's uterus (which is a really annoying, tiresome straw man). What about the children born alive, what about the women the regulators DELIBERATELY turned their backs on?
talaniman
Apr 29, 2013, 08:36 AM
Now you want regulation enforced, but its to late for the ones who died in West, Tx. Or the ones who die because criminals get guns as easy crazy people. Sorry to waste your time but you fail to see a connection with all the problems we have that need solving.
You hollering strawman all the time doesn't cut it.
smoothy
Apr 29, 2013, 08:41 AM
Crazy people shouldn't be running loose... they should be in Assylums before they can hurt others.
talaniman
Apr 29, 2013, 08:46 AM
Even pro choice people are outraged and disgusted by this Gosnall fellow and what he did.
speechlesstx
Apr 29, 2013, 08:46 AM
Now you want regulation enforced, but its to late for the ones who died in West, Tx. Or the ones who die because criminals get guns as easy crazy people. Sorry to waste your time but you fail to see a connection with all the problems we have that need solving.
You hollering strawman all the time doesn't cut it.
The notion that we want to control a woman's uterus IS a straw man so I will call it what it is. Again, this is not about West, TX, banks, the size of government, gun control. What about the children born alive, what about the women the regulators DELIBERATELY turned their backs on?
tomder55
Apr 29, 2013, 09:36 AM
These horrors described in this thred are not the exception .
Here is the wording by Justice Kennedy in the majority opinion of Gonzales v Carhart (where the court upheld the consitutionality of late term abortions
)Keep in mind ;what he describes here is 2nd trimester and not late term.
Of the remaining abortions that take place each year, most occur in the second trimester. The surgical procedure referred to as "dilation and evacuation" or "D&E" is the usual abortion method in this trimester. Planned Parenthood, 320 F. Supp. 2d, at 960-961. Although individual techniques for performing D&E differ, the general steps are the same.
A doctor must first dilate the cervix at least to the extent needed to insert surgical instruments into the uterus and to maneuver them to evacuate the fetus. Nat. Abortion Federation, supra, at 465; App. In No. 05-1382, at 61. The steps taken to cause dilation differ by physician and gestational age of the fetus. See, e.g. Carhart, 331 F. Supp. 2d, at 852, 856, 859, 862-865, 868, 870, 873-874, 876-877, 880, 883, 886. A doctor often begins the dilation process by inserting osmotic dilators, such as laminaria (sticks of seaweed), into the cervix. The dilators can be used in combination with drugs, such as misoprostol, that increase dilation. The resulting amount of dilation is not uniform, and a doctor does not know in advance how an individual patient will respond. In general the longer dilators remain in the cervix, the more it will dilate. Yet the length of time doctors employ osmotic dilators varies. Some may keep dilators in the cervix for two days, while others use dilators for a day or less. Nat. Abortion Federation, supra, at 464-465; Planned Parenthood, supra, at 961.
After sufficient dilation the surgical operation can commence. The woman is placed under general anesthesia or conscious sedation. The doctor, often guided by ultrasound, inserts grasping forceps through the woman's cervix and into the uterus to grab the fetus. The doctor grips a fetal part with the forceps and pulls it back through the cervix and vagina, continuing to pull even after meeting resistance from the cervix. The friction causes the fetus to tear apart. For example, a leg might be ripped off the fetus as it is pulled through the cervix and out of the woman. The process of evacuating the fetus piece by piece continues until it has been completely removed. A doctor may make 10 to 15 passes with the forceps to evacuate the fetus in its entirety, though sometimes removal is completed with fewer passes. Once the fetus has been evacuated, the placenta and any remaining fetal material are suctioned or scraped out of the uterus. The doctor examines the different parts to ensure the entire fetal body has been removed. See, e.g. Nat. Abortion Federation, supra, at 465; Planned Parenthood, supra, at 962.
Some doctors, especially later in the second trimester, may kill the fetus a day or two before performing the surgical evacuation. They inject digoxin or potassium chloride into the fetus, the umbilical cord, or the amniotic fluid. Fetal demise may cause contractions and make greater dilation possible. Once dead, moreover, the fetus' body will soften, and its removal will be easier. Other doctors refrain from injecting chemical agents, believing it adds risk with little or no medical benefit. Carhart, supra, at 907-912; Nat. Abortion Federation, supra, at 474-475.
The abortion procedure that was the impetus for the numerous bans on "partial-birth abortion," including the Act, is a variation of this standard D&E. See M. Haskell, Dilation and Extraction for Late Second Trimester Abortion (1992), 1 Appellant's App. In No. 04-3379 (CA8), p. 109 (hereinafter Dilation and Extraction). The medical community has not reached unanimity on the appropriate name for this D&E variation. It has been referred to as "intact D&E," "dilation and extraction" (D&X), and "intact D&X." Nat. Abortion Federation, supra, at 440, n. 2; see also F. Cunningham et al. Williams Obstetrics 243 (22d ed. 2005) (identifying the procedure as D&X); Danforth's Obstetrics and Gynecology 567 (J. Scott, R. Gibbs, B. Karlan, & A. Haney eds. 9th ed. 2003) (identifying the procedure as intact D&X); M. Paul, E. Lichtenberg, L. Borgatta, D. Grimes, & P. Stubblefield, A Clinician's Guide to Medical and Surgical Abortion 136 (1999) (identifying the procedure as intact D&E). For discussion purposes this D&E variation will be referred to as intact D&E. The main difference between the two procedures is that in intact D&E a doctor extracts the fetus intact or largely intact with only a few passes. There are no comprehensive statistics indicating what percentage of all D&Es are performed in this manner.
Intact D&E, like regular D&E, begins with dilation of the cervix. Sufficient dilation is essential for the procedure. To achieve intact extraction some doctors thus may attempt to dilate the cervix to a greater degree. This approach has been called "serial" dilation. Carhart, supra, at 856, 870, 873; Planned Parenthood, supra, at 965. Doctors who attempt at the outset to perform intact D&E may dilate for two full days or use up to 25 osmotic dilators. See, e.g. Dilation and Extraction 110; Carhart, supra, at 865, 868, 876, 886.
In an intact D&E procedure the doctor extracts the fetus in a way conducive to pulling out its entire body, instead of ripping it apart. One doctor, for example, testified:
"If I know I have good dilation and I reach in and the fetus starts to come out and I think I can accomplish it, the abortion with an intact delivery, then I use my forceps a little bit differently. I don't close them quite so much, and I just gently draw the tissue out attempting to have an intact delivery, if possible." App. In No. 05-1382, at 74.
Rotating the fetus as it is being pulled decreases the odds of dismemberment. Carhart, supra, at 868-869; App. In No. 05-380, pp. 40-41; 5 Appellant's App. In No. 04-3379 (CA8), p. 1469. A doctor also "may use forceps to grasp a fetal part, pull it down, and re-grasp the fetus at a higher level--sometimes using both his hand and a forceps--to exert traction to retrieve the fetus intact until the head is lodged in the [cervix]." Carhart, 331 F. Supp. 2d, at 886-887.
Intact D&E gained public notoriety when, in 1992, Dr. Martin Haskell gave a presentation describing his method of performing the operation. Dilation and Extraction 110-111. In the usual intact D&E the fetus' head lodges in the cervix, and dilation is insufficient to allow it to pass. See, e.g. ibid.; App. In No. 05-380, at 577; App. In No. 05-1382, at 74, 282. Haskell explained the next step as
follows:
" 'At this point, the right-handed surgeon slides the fingers of the left [hand] along the back of the fetus and "hooks" the shoulders of the fetus with the index and ring fingers (palm down).
" 'While maintaining this tension, lifting the cervix and applying traction to the shoulders with the fingers of the left hand, the surgeon takes a pair of blunt curved Metzenbaum scissors in the right hand. He carefully advances the tip, curved down, along the spine and under his middle finger until he feels it contact the base of the skull under the tip of his middle finger.
" '[T]he surgeon then forces the scissors into the base of the skull or into the foramen magnum. Having safely entered the skull, he spreads the scissors to enlarge the opening.
" 'The surgeon removes the scissors and introduces a suction catheter into this hole and evacuates the skull contents. With the catheter still in place, he applies traction to the fetus, removing it completely from the patient.' " H. R. Rep. No. 108-58, p. 3 (2003).
This is an abortion doctor's clinical description. Here is another description from a nurse who witnessed the same method performed on a 26-week fetus and who testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee:
" 'Dr. Haskell went in with forceps and grabbed the baby's legs and pulled them down into the birth canal. Then he delivered the baby's body and the arms--everything but the head. The doctor kept the head right inside the uterus... .
" 'The baby's little fingers were clasping and unclasping, and his little feet were kicking. Then the doctor stuck the scissors in the back of his head, and the baby's arms jerked out, like a startle reaction, like a flinch, like a baby does when he thinks he is going to fall.
" 'The doctor opened up the scissors, stuck a high-powered suction tube into the opening, and sucked the baby's brains out. Now the baby went completely limp... .
" 'He cut the umbilical cord and delivered the placenta. He threw the baby in a pan, along with the placenta and the instruments he had just used.' " Ibid.
Dr. Haskell's approach is not the only method of killing the fetus once its head lodges in the cervix, and "the process has evolved" since his presentation. Planned Parenthood, 320 F. Supp. 2d, at 965. Another doctor, for example, squeezes the skull after it has been pierced "so that enough brain tissue exudes to allow the head to pass through." App. In No. 05-380, at 41; see also Carhart, supra, at 866-867, 874. Still other physicians reach into the cervix with their forceps and crush the fetus' skull. Carhart, supra, at 858, 881. Others continue to pull the fetus out of the woman until it disarticulates at the neck, in effect decapitating it. These doctors then grasp the head with forceps, crush it, and remove it. Id. at 864, 878; see also Planned Parenthood, supra, at 965.
Some doctors performing an intact D&E attempt to remove the fetus without collapsing the skull. See Carhart, supra, at 866, 869. Yet one doctor would not allow delivery of a live fetus younger than 24 weeks because "the objective of [his] procedure is to perform an abortion," not a birth. App. In No. 05-1382, at 408-409. The doctor thus answered in the affirmative when asked whether he would "hold the fetus' head on the internal side of the [cervix] in order to collapse the skull" and kill the fetus before it is born. Id. at 409; see also Carhart, supra, at 862, 878. Another doctor testified he crushes a fetus' skull not only to reduce its size but also to ensure the fetus is dead before it is removed. For the staff to have to deal with a fetus that has "some viability to it, some movement of limbs," according to this doctor, "[is] always a difficult situation." App. In No. 05-380, at 94; see Carhart, supra, at 858.
FindLaw | Cases and Codes (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=000&invol=05-380)
Sen. Obama spoke at a Planned Parenthood event after the decision and decried the decision calling it a “concerted effort to steadily roll back” access to abortion".
speechlesstx
Apr 29, 2013, 10:02 AM
If refusing to participate in a gay wedding is barbaric what do you call this?
talaniman
Apr 29, 2013, 11:44 AM
You should be all for education, and contraceptives to prevent abortions. But you aren't.
tomder55
Apr 29, 2013, 11:57 AM
You should be all for education, and contraceptives to prevent abortions. But you aren't.
Except for this inconvenient fact
As our reverence for life has diminished, so has our reverence for the institutions that surround and support it.
Scholars at the Brookings Institution observed in 1996 that Roe v. Wade contributed to the collapse of marriage and the dramatic increase in out-of-wedlock births. The idea that children were part of a sacred institution called marriage started disappearing.
The sense of honor, the sense of shame disappears in this culture of self.
In 1965, seven years before Roe v. Wade, less then 10 percent of American babies were born to unwed mothers – 24 percent to unwed black women and 3.1percent to unwed white women. As of 2010, this was up to 41 percent of our babies born to unwed mothers – 73 percent among black women and 29 percent among white women.
Sixty percent of our out-of-wedlock births are to women in their 20s.
How abortion has changed America (http://www.wnd.com/2013/04/how-abortion-has-changed-america/#rhIeux8jMewR2pXm.99)
talaniman
Apr 29, 2013, 12:38 PM
Proper education, and contraceptives would help the out of wedlock rate too, but you still ain't for it huh?
smoothy
Apr 29, 2013, 12:43 PM
They aren't going to get that in the public schools here or the Colleges... not enough time left after the indocrintation and Political correctness to actually teach things they need for life.
speechlesstx
Apr 29, 2013, 12:57 PM
Proper education, and contraceptives would help the out of wedlock rate too, but you still ain't for it huh?
I'm all for education, but not the kind your side wants to give them.
tomder55
Apr 29, 2013, 01:43 PM
Proper education, and contraceptives would help the out of wedlock rate too, but you still ain't for it huh?
yeah because all the sex ed stuff has worked so well til now
NeedKarma
Apr 29, 2013, 03:00 PM
yeah because all the sex ed stuff has worked so well until nowWhat's your solution?
speechlesstx
Apr 29, 2013, 04:26 PM
What's your solution?
You first.
speechlesstx
Apr 30, 2013, 06:27 AM
Kirsten Powers is on the job still. Was Gosnell's house of horrors an aberration? She doesn't think so (http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2013/04/29/gosnells-abortion-atrocities-no-aberration-column/2122235/)as evidence continues to mount that his clinic is far from alone and regulators look the other way when they should be protecting women and children and enforcing the law.
Closing arguments leave questions about clinics elsewhere in America.
"If I talk, maybe people will make sure it won't happen again."
That's what 20-year-old Desiree Hawkins told me last week as she recounted the horror of visiting abortion doctor Kermit Gosnell in December 2009. The jury in Gosnell's trial for the alleged murders of multiple babies and one woman heard closing arguments Monday afternoon, but they won't hear from Hawkins.
Hawkins was forced to relive the nightmare of Gosnell's house of horrors when she was contacted by a Drug Enforcement Administration agent this year. The agent told her that one of the severed feet found in jars at the clinic belonged to her aborted baby. She was set to testify as a rebuttal witness against Gosnell until he chose to not take the stand.
When she was 16, Hawkins sought an abortion at a National Abortion Federation-certified abortion clinic, Hagerstown (Md.) Reproductive Health Services. The clinic told her she was 19 weeks pregnant and referred her to Gosnell. When she recently retrieved her file in anticipation of testifying, she was shocked that her sonogram showed she had in fact been at 21 weeks, which meant she would have been 23 weeks pregnant by the time Gosnell performed the abortion. "I was so overwhelmed and hurt," said Hawkins. "If I had known I was 23 weeks, I would have (chosen) adoption."
She also would have avoided the trauma visited upon her by Gosnell. Hawkins described the licensed medical professional as laughing at her during the procedure as she cried and begged him to stop because of the pain. "Stop being a baby," he said.
Hawkins experienced betrayal anew when she read the grand jury report replete with testimony of government officials admitting they ignored repeated complaints about Gosnell because they didn't want to limit access to abortion.
'People die'
Said Hawkins, "What really got me was when the (health department official) just said, 'People die.' They just decided to look the other way." She is passionate that "someone needs to make sure all states' departments of health ... are preventing this from happening."
Abortion rights advocates have asserted that Gosnell was an "extreme outlier" and opposed legislation to increase regulation of Pennsylvania abortion clinics as they have in other states. But how could they possibly know that this is an aberration?
Last week, Ohio officials shut down an abortion clinic after inspectors found that a medical assistant administered narcotics to five patients, that narcotics and powerful sedatives weren't properly accounted for, that pharmacy licenses had expired and that four staff members hadn't been screened for a communicable disease.
This month, a Delaware TV station reported that two Planned Parenthood nurses resigned in protest over conditions at a clinic there. One nurse, Jayne Mitchell-Werbrich, said, "It was just unsafe. I couldn't tell you how ridiculously unsafe it was."
Clinic closure drumbeat
Last month, Maryland officials shut down three abortion clinics, two for failings in their equipment and training to deal with life-threatening complications.
Last year, an Associated Press investigation found that Illinois hadn't inspected some abortion clinics for 10 to 15 years. After state health officials reinvigorated their clinic inspections in the wake of Gosnell, inspectors closed two clinics, including one fined for "failure to perform CPR on a patient who died after a procedure," according to AP.
Such problems wouldn't be a shock to Pennsylvania state Rep. Margo Davidson, the only member of the Democratic black caucus to vote for the abortion-regulation bill passed there. She told me, "We don't know how many (Gosnells) there are. I'm not trying to overturn Roe v. Wade, but if a woman makes this difficult choice, she should at least be afforded the highest level of care." She said the choice community knew what was going on and did nothing.
Indeed, the grand jury found that the National Abortion Federation inspected Gosnell's clinic, refused to certify him, but didn't tell anyone. Pennsylvania Planned Parenthood representative Dayle Steinberg has admitted that its officials knew the clinic was unsafe after women complained. What did they do? "We would always encourage them to report it to the Department of Health."
Davidson concluded that for the choice community, "the institution was more important than the individual lives." Davidson knows firsthand what can happen when people choose to look the other way: Her 22-year-old cousin died after an abortion at Gosnell's clinic.
There's your war on women.
excon
Apr 30, 2013, 06:36 AM
Hello again, Steve:
It just isn't working... One MONSTER does NOT reflect what's actually happening on the ground... What if I posted about a MONSTER who killed somebody with a gun... Wouldn't you be telling me that ONE monster does not reflect what's happening on the ground??
You WOULD.
If you want something to be OUTRAGED about, be OUTRAGED that YOUR country is imprisoning people WITHOUT charging them with ANYTHING... And, because the prisoners take exception to that, they've decided to STARVE themselves. Then YOUR government sticks them in chairs, chains their hands and legs, and FORCES a tube down their throat.
If THAT doesn't OUTRAGE you, and it won't, you'll understand why what outrages you, DOESN'T outrage me..
Next.
excon
smoothy
Apr 30, 2013, 06:45 AM
Your president is calling in drones and killing them... they would be happy if they were rotting in jail without being charged.
speechlesstx
Apr 30, 2013, 06:52 AM
Hello again, Steve:
It just isn't working... One MONSTER does NOT reflect what's actually happening on the ground... What if I posted about a MONSTER who killed somebody with a gun... Wouldn't you be telling me that ONE monster does not reflect what's happening on the ground????
You WOULD.
If you want something to be OUTRAGED about, be OUTRAGED that YOUR country is imprisoning people WITHOUT charging them with ANYTHING... And, because the prisoners take exception to that, they've decided to STARVE themselves. Then YOUR government sticks them in chairs, chains their hands and legs, and FORCES a tube down their throat.
If THAT doesn't OUTRAGE you, and it won't, you'll understand why what outrages you, DOESN'T outrage me..
Next.
excon
Math is hard isn't it? I counted four more examples in that one column alone, but thanks at least for demonstrating you aren't really concerned about any war on women.
excon
Apr 30, 2013, 06:55 AM
Hello again, smoothy:
they would be happy if they were rotting in jail without being charged.This, along with MOST things you post, come right out of your a$$.
Excon
excon
Apr 30, 2013, 06:57 AM
Hello again, Steve:
I'm NOT reading the gory details you post. It SICKENS me. That you've found 4 OTHER monsters, does NOT make a trend.
Next.
excon
smoothy
Apr 30, 2013, 07:07 AM
Hello again, smoothy:
This, along with MOST things you post, come right out of your a$$.
excon
I learned that from you. You are after all one of the masters.
speechlesstx
Apr 30, 2013, 07:13 AM
Hello again, Steve:
I'm NOT reading the gory details you post. It SICKENS me. That you've found 4 OTHER monsters, does NOT make a trend.
Next.
excon
It must really pi$$ you off then that it's a female liberal that's doing all the legwork here. Or is Powers just showing her true colors?
talaniman
Apr 30, 2013, 07:27 AM
I have always been for strict clear rules of acceptable behavior for everybody, even the rich guys the right allows to rob us.
speechlesstx
Apr 30, 2013, 07:35 AM
What about the rich guys the left allows to rob us? You can't get a better example of crony capitalism than Zero himself, but this is about the horrors being perpetrated against women and children and regulatory failure. I agree with the PA Dem that said, "the institution was more important than the individual lives." That's twice I've agreed with libs/dems today.
smoothy
Apr 30, 2013, 07:44 AM
What about the rich guys the left allows to rob us? You can't get a better example of crony capitalism than Zero himself, but this is about the horrors being perpetrated against women and children and regulatory failure. I agree with the PA Dem that said, "the institution was more important than the individual lives." That's twice I've agreed with libs/dems today.
YOU mean like Mr. I-pay-18.4%-tax Obama... George Soros and the Hollywood syndicate?
talaniman
Apr 30, 2013, 07:47 AM
What about the rich guys the left allows to rob us? You can't get a better example of crony capitalism than Zero himself, but this is about the horrors being perpetrated against women and children and regulatory failure. I agree with the PA Dem that said, "the institution was more important than the individual lives." That's twice I've agreed with libs/dems today.
I assume you apply that to the victims of regulatory failure in West, TX?
tomder55
Apr 30, 2013, 08:01 AM
That would be your assumption . I haven't read anything yet that places a cause for the fire.
speechlesstx
Apr 30, 2013, 08:08 AM
I assume you apply that to the victims of regulatory failure in West, TX?
OSHA hadn't been there for 20 years. If they were supposed to then they dropped the ball.
DOT was there in 2011 which sounds about right, and found 2 violations. Some nurse tanks were missing placards and they needed a security plan. Both were corrected and they were fined $5250.00.
Unless you know of something else I can't comment other than they had no OSHA safety inspection but the agency that governs them said their faults were corrected after a modest fine.
Your turn.
talaniman
Apr 30, 2013, 09:11 AM
History of Safety Violations at Texas Fertilizer Plant | Care2 Causes (http://www.care2.com/causes/history-of-safety-violations-at-texas-fertilizer-plant.html)
The EPA also expressed concerns about the West Fertilizer Company's Risk-Management Program (RMP), required for such facilities. These concerns included worries that the plan was outdated, and that it had no documentation regarding what it intended to do in order to address safety concerns. A new plan was filed five years later to get in compliance. Amazingly, the plant claimed that it didn't have any explosive or flammable materials on site, and didn't list fire among potential safety risks in the workplace.
Think this is bad? Ramit Plushnick-Masti and Jack Gillum, reporting for the AP, note that: “There were no sprinklers. No firewalls. No water deluge systems.” Without such basic fire suppression systems, once the plant started to go, it was almost unstoppable, and the fire spread quickly through the facility without any walls to keep it in check. This made the accident even more devastating than it could have been, and endangered the lives of first responders who arrived on scene to help victims.
Glad to get you started.
speechlesstx
Apr 30, 2013, 09:36 AM
The only relevant inspections to the blast would be those concerning workplace safety, which is OSHA and DOT. DOT, which governs hazardous materials was satisfied after their last inspection. Fire protection is within the purview of the authority having jurisdiction, whoever that may be in West, TX. I don't know what EPA fines have to do with the explosion, but feel free to count me as saying there was a failure somewhere, most likely with the plant owners and management more than anything. It sounds to me like they weren't as thorough in protecting workers and the community as they should have been and DOT and OSHA were their usual selves..
Again, your turn.
tomder55
May 2, 2013, 10:00 AM
And yet another "exception" .
Investigation #3: Arizona (http://www.liveaction.org/inhuman/investigation-3-phoenix-az/)
excon
May 2, 2013, 10:04 AM
Hello again, tom:
I haven't been keeping up, but it looks like you're blaming the regulators for not regulating HARD enough (which is a switch). It also looks like you're giving the owners a pass. Do I have that right?
excon
tomder55
May 2, 2013, 10:34 AM
Giving the owners a pass ? Hardly . No I don't think this is about lack of regulation . I think this is the industry as it really is... not that much different than the back alley coat hanger approach. They just have nicer offices.
No I think it's the law that would allow this that if horribly flawed.
speechlesstx
May 2, 2013, 10:59 AM
Ex, you need to look back through this thread and see how many players KNEW about Gosnell but looked the other way. There's lots of blame to go around but no one wants to take responsibility and the rest are making excuses and offering pathetic "solutions" like needing MORE access to abortion for poor women so they can be victimized, too.
Open your eyes, the war on women you b*tched about for the last year is being exposed right in front of your face. Are you going to look the other way, too?
speechlesstx
May 3, 2013, 08:34 AM
Did you know that as one Kermit Gosnell was facing murder charges for his house of horrors that the Sundance Film Festival was honoring four late-term abortionists in the film After Tiller? All of these "heroes (http://www.cnsnews.com/blog/rev-marcel-guarnizo/heroes-sundance)" were taught by the slain abortionist, including one Leroy Carhart, the "butcher of Germantown."
As he was being honored, Carhart was "performing a third-trimester on a 29-year-old woman who was pronounced dead in a Germantown, Maryland hospital on February 7."
.. in 2009 several of Carhart's employees filed affidavits with the Nebraska State Attorney General's office with details on Carhart's practices. The attorney general and the Nebraska Department of health launched investigations into testimony "...of Carhart's unlicensed workers illegally performing medical tasks, illegal post-viability abortions, drug violations, financial malfeasance," and that there was often "dried blood on medical instruments." The testimony also indicated that Carhart "had poor hygiene and rarely washed his hands between patients."
Carhart was also implicated in the death of another woman at a Tiller clinic in 2005, be sure and read about that. The good "Dr" Carhart installed an incinerator at his own Kansas clinic to deal with all those late term babies he slaughtered. This only after a journalist took a picture of a dog eating a baby's corpse at the public incinerator where he was disposing of their bodies.
I can't wait for After Tiller to be released so I can see all about these "healthcare" "heroes."
http://www.investors.com/image/2RAMclr-050113-gosnell-IBD-.jpg.cms
speechlesstx
May 4, 2013, 04:47 AM
Yeah, Gosnell was just an outlier and the regulators are on the job, except he isn't and they aren't. Michigan, the next state to fail to protect women as with Pennsylvania, Delaware, NY, Virginia, Maryland...
Mentor clears doc in abortion complaint | WOOD TV8 (http://www.woodtv.com/dpp/news/target_8/muskegon-abortion-clinic-conflict-of-interest)
excon
May 4, 2013, 06:30 AM
Hello again,
Maybe, in an atmosphere of abortion on demand, Gosnell would have been found out earlier... But, when the right wing is CLOSING abortion clinics as fast as they can, I can see the left wing supporting doctors who remain and are willing to fight... So much so, that they don't really look INTO the practices of those who remain...
I really don't know. But, if you're suggesting, and you are, that lefties KNEW he was a butcher and STILL supported him, I unambiguously, reject it.
excon
speechlesstx
May 4, 2013, 06:46 AM
Hello again,
Maybe, in an atmosphere of abortion on demand, Gosnell would have been found out earlier... But, when the right wing is CLOSING abortion clinics as fast as they can, I can see the left wing supporting doctors who remain and are willing to fight... So much so, that they don't really look INTO the practices of those who remain...
I really don't know. But, if you're suggesting, and you are, that lefties KNEW he was a butcher and STILL supported him, I unambiguously, reject it.
excon
No, making abortion more available is not the answer. If the government that can't fix potholes can't watch over the clinics open now you can't expect them watch more.
The only way you can reject the fact that these butchers were known and allowed to continue is to close your eyes and plug your ears. I have documented it throughout this thread, but you remain in denial about the ACTUAL war on women being waged under your nose.
talaniman
May 4, 2013, 06:52 AM
Its you who have denied women safe choices, so what's left? That right NO choice. That's what you wanted in the first place even though choice is a constitutionally protected right.
So much for your love of the constitution, and its obvious you think your rights are more important than the rights of others, especially women.
excon
May 4, 2013, 07:06 AM
Hello again, Steve/tom:
Let me ask you this. If you had your druthers, and abortion was re-classified as premeditated MURDER, who would you put to death - the mother or the doctor?
excon
speechlesstx
May 4, 2013, 08:40 AM
Its you who have denied women safe choices, so what's left? That right NO choice. That's what you wanted in the first place even though choice is a constitutionally protected right.
So much for your love of the constitution, and its obvious you think your rights are more important than the rights of others, especially women.
Still more straw men. When you ask and answer your own questions you come up with the answer you want every time.
speechlesstx
May 4, 2013, 08:42 AM
Hello again, Steve/tom:
Lemme ask you this. If you had your druthers, and abortion was re-classified as premeditated MURDER, who would you put to death - the mother or the doctor?
excon
Obviousy you aren't interested in the truth or ending the real war on women.
speechlesstx
May 6, 2013, 02:02 PM
Once again Kirsten Powers gets it.
Abortion Rights Community Has Become the NRA of the Left (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/05/06/abortion-rights-community-has-become-the-nra-of-the-left.html)
Abortion rights advocates have argued that there is nothing to see here. Move along. This is what illegal abortion looks like, they say.
But Gosnell’s clinic was not illegal. It was a licensed medical facility. The state of his clinic was well known: there were repeated complaints to government officials and even the local Planned Parenthood. He wasn’t operating under the radar but in plain sight, and he received referrals from abortion clinics up and down the East Coast. Gosnell performed plenty of abortions within the 24-week limit in Pennsylvania and worked part time for a National Abortion Federation–accredited clinic in Delaware.
The woman Gosnell is on trial for allegedly killing, Karnamaya Mongar, perished during a legal abortion while she was 19 weeks pregnant. Gosnell was not forced to operate in the dark because of anti–abortion rights regulations. It’s the opposite: he was able to flourish—pulling in $1.8 million a year—because multiple abortion rights administrations decided that to inspect his clinic might mean limiting access to abortion. It’s all in the grand jury report, if you don’t believe me.
One of the bodies discovered in the raid of the clinic was of a 22-week-old baby with a surgical incision on the back of her neck, which penetrated the first and second vertebrae. The only thing that would make her death illegal would be if Gosnell failed to finish her off in her mother's womb.
Does that statement make you uncomfortable? Good.
What we need to learn from the Gosnell case is that late-term abortion is infanticide. Legal infanticide. That so many people in the media seem untroubled by the idea that 12 inches in one direction is a “private medical decision” and 12 inches in the other direction causes people to react in horror, should be troubling. Indeed, Gosnell’s defense attorney Jack J. McMahon has relied on the argument that Gosnell killed the babies prior to delivering them, therefore he is not guilty of murder. His exact words were: “Every one of those babies died in utero.”
Gosnell is accused of aborting infants past the 24-week limit in Pennsylvania. But those same deaths – if done in utero – would have been perfectly legal in many states with sometimes abused health exceptions, which can include the elastic category of "mental distress."
The New York Times reported that MacMahon argued: “Because the women were given injections of the drug digoxin, which causes ‘fetal demise,’ any postdelivery movements were involuntary spasms.” The Washington Examiner's Tim Carney, who attended the trial, reported that McMahon argued: “The purpose of the shot...is to kill the baby so that it will not be a live birth.”
We live in a country where if a six-months-pregnant woman started downing shots of vodka in a bar or lit up a cigarette, people might want her arrested. But that same woman could walk into an abortion clinic, no questions asked, and be injected with a drug that would stop her baby’s heart.
I’ll put my cards on the table: I think life begins at conception and would love to live in a world where no women ever felt she needed to get an abortion. However, I know enough people who are pro-abortion rights—indeed, I was one of them for most of my life—to know that reasonable and sincere people can disagree about when meaningful life begins. They also can disagree about how to weigh that moral uncertainty against a woman’s right to control her body—and her own life. I have only ever voted for Democrats, so overturning Roe v. Wade is not one of my priorities. I never want to return to the days of gruesome back-alley abortions.
But medical advances since Roe v. Wade have made it clear to me that late-term abortion is not a moral gray area, and we need to stop pretending it is. No six-months-pregnant woman is picking out names for her “fetus.” It’s a baby. Let’s stop playing Orwellian word games. We are talking about human beings here.
How is this OK? Even liberal Europe gets this. In France, Germany, Italy, and Norway, abortion is illegal after 12 weeks. In addition to the life-of-mother exception, they provide narrow health exceptions that require approval from multiple doctors or in some cases going before a board. In the U.S., if you suggest such stringent regulation and oversight of later-term abortions, you are tarred within seconds by the abortion rights movement as a misogynist who doesn’t “trust women.”
Speaking as a liberal who endorses more government regulation of practically everything—banks, water, air, food, oil drilling, animal safety—I am eternally perplexed by the fury the abortion rights contingent displays at the suggestion that the government might have a serious role to play in the issue of abortion, especially later-term abortion. More and more, the abortion rights community has become the NRA of the left: unleashing their armies of supporters and lobbyists in opposition to regulations or restrictions that the majority of Americans support. In the same way the NRA believes background checks will lead to the government busting down your door to confiscate your guns, the abortion rights movement conjures a straight line from parental consent to a complete ban on abortion.
Such an attitude makes having an honest conversation about abortion almost impossible. That is just one of the many reasons I hate talking about it. Additionally, there is no upside in our media culture to challenging this sacred cow. More likely, there is a price to be paid, which is why so few people take it on. However, I cannot legitimately say I am a person who cherishes human rights—the animating issue of my life and a frequent topic of my writing—and remain silent about our country’s legally endorsing infanticide.
I simply have to believe we are better than this.
speechlesstx
May 8, 2013, 07:15 AM
No I'm not done yet and I have no intention of letting this go as long as this inhumanity exists. One of the abortion "heroes" I mentioned earlier (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/3455669-post116.html), Leroy Carhart - celebrated in film at Sundance - likened the babies he kills to "meat in a crock pot" when Live Action went in to investigate (http://www.liveaction.org/) his and other clinics.
He casually described the abortion as a “shot into the fetus” to ensure that “[i]t’ll be dead for two days before you deliver it.” He told her the injection also causes the baby to “[get] soft, like mushy [makes squishing sound], so you push it through… so it’s like putting meat in a crock pot.” If this method is unsuccessful, he would have to remove the baby “in pieces,” using, he joked, “a pickaxe, a drill bit.”
But of course this butcher only had the best interest of women at heart...
Finally, Carhart blatantly lied to both our investigators about the danger of his abortions, coercing his patients into a risky procedure. “I’ve never had to send anybody to the hospital.” Less than a year before, his staff were forced to call 911 after he injured a woman in an abortion. Our second investigator asked Carhart if she should call an ambulance if she goes into labor in her hotel room. With callous disregard for her safety, Carhart replied, “…don’t call 911… you’re gonna be within 10 minutes or 15 minutes of a clinic, just get in the car. Call me.”
Just six weeks earlier, he had ignored his patient Jennifer Morbelli’s attempts to contact him before she went into cardiac arrest and died at the local hospital. More injuries probably remain undocumented, as Carhart instructs his patients, “If you feel that something is wrong and you need to be seen do not go to the ER, call and we will meet you at the clinic.” He would rather endanger his patients than reveal his malpractice to emergency physicians. Carhart also told our investigator, “[T]he risks at… 36 weeks doing an abortion are still about less than 10% what they are with childbirth.” Actually, abortions after 20 weeks result in 6 times more maternal deaths than childbirth.
Read the whole thing (http://ccb36d22da576671ae77-0c9cfeae658d496c507e798db67b1ef3.r55.cf2.rackcdn.c om/2013/05/LA_NEreport_full.pdf), besides the butchers themselves it's starting to look more and more like these abortion clinics are staffed by yahoos and not professionals. Where is the OUTRAGE over the INHUMANITY and total lack of regulatory accountability?
excon
May 8, 2013, 07:27 AM
Hello again, Steve:
Where is the OUTRAGE over the INHUMANITY and total lack of regulatory accountability?I'm outraged. What do you want from me? You ask about "accountability" as though you expect the police to protect us from EVERYTHING. It'd be nice.
Excon
Tuttyd
May 8, 2013, 07:33 AM
Once again Kirsten Powers gets it.
"Abortion Rights Community has become the NRA of the Left"
Why on earth would anyone choose this heading? Wouldn't you avoid such a comparison at all costs?
talaniman
May 8, 2013, 07:47 AM
You guys have made regulation and accountability a bad word in an effort to blame everyone but yourselves for the sad mess we are in. Even when we join you in your outrage you still only talk of OUR accountability, and nit pick very conveniently only what bolsters your own opinion.
Not a way to get solutions based on facts and not bias.
speechlesstx
May 8, 2013, 07:50 AM
"Abortion Rights Community has become the NRA of the Left"
Why on earth would anyone choose this heading? Wouldn't you avoid such a comparison at all costs?
It was a liberal that made the comparison and I thought it was appropriate and a welcome admission.
speechlesstx
May 8, 2013, 07:56 AM
Hello again, Steve:
I'm outraged. What do you want from me? You ask about "accountability" as though you expect the police to protect us from EVERYTHING. It'd be nice.
excon
It was you who doubted regulators looked the other way while this butchery was taking place. Well sir, they've been doing so time and again so who is going to protect these women? I want some freakin' heads to roll in these regulatory agencies, our women and children deserve better.
speechlesstx
May 8, 2013, 08:01 AM
You guys have made regulation and accountability a bad word in an effort to blame everyone but yourselves for the sad mess we are in.
Bullsh*t Tal, that narrative is entirely a construct of the left. Do you honestly believe we don't expect standards for food, health care and such? Get real and end this charade, or do you honestly believe it?
Even when we join you in your outrage you still only talk of OUR accountability, and nit pick very conveniently only what bolsters your own opinion.
Not a way to get solutions based on facts and not bias.
The only nitpicking in this thread is by you and ex, the outrage over this and demand for accountability SHOULD be unanimous, but what you're doing is proving the point that the institution of abortion is more important to the "pro-choice" crowd than the actual lives affected.
talaniman
May 8, 2013, 08:08 AM
The right has been saying for a while now that the only thing they want is repeal, and elimination. This thread is a perfect example that even though the outrage is unanimous, you still aren't satisfied.
Tuttyd
May 8, 2013, 08:08 AM
It was a liberal that made the comparison and I thought it was appropriate and a welcome admission.
I see. Perhaps it is best if we can let sleeping dogs lie.
speechlesstx
May 8, 2013, 08:30 AM
The right has been saying for a while now that the only thing they want is repeal, and elimination. This thread is a perfect example that even though the outrage is unanimous, you still aren't satisfied.
I'm hoping to finally have an HONEST conversation about the issue but based on your comments - this last one included - that's apparently not going to happen.
speechlesstx
May 8, 2013, 08:33 AM
I see. Perhaps it is best if we can let sleeping dogs lie.
No, it's time to wake the dog up and have an honest discussion. Kirsten Powers should be applauded for doing just that.
talaniman
May 8, 2013, 08:35 AM
Not as long as you don't recognize everyone agrees with you that the law failed, and let this monster kill people. Left, right, pro choice, pro life. WE ALL AGREE. You should be happier than a squirrel in a nut factory.
Now what?
talaniman
May 8, 2013, 08:37 AM
I'm hoping to finally have an HONEST conversation about the issue but based on your comments - this last one included - that's apparently not going to happen.
Not as long as you don't recognize everyone agrees with you that the law failed, and let this monster kill people. Left, right, pro choice, pro life. WE ALL AGREE. You should be happier than a squirrel in a nut factory.
Now what?
Tuttyd
May 8, 2013, 08:38 AM
No, it's time to wake the dog up and have an honest discussion. Kirsten Powers should be applauded for doing just that.
I'll go along with that, but I was captured by the irony of the heading. That's all.
speechlesstx
May 8, 2013, 08:57 AM
Not as long as you don't recognize everyone agrees with you that the law failed, and let this monster kill people. Left, right, pro choice, pro life. WE ALL AGREE. You should be happier than a squirrel in a nut factory.
Now what?
Your last words, "The right has been saying for a while now that the only thing they want is repeal, and elimination."
That, sir is dishonest.
This goes beyond the regulatory failures and these particular butchers, which we may agree on, though if I ex ever changed his mind about doubting there were INTENTIONAL failures I don't recall it.
We need to have an honest conversation about life, humanity, women's health PLUS the institutional failures by the gods of abortion themselves.
As Kirsten said, "I cannot legitimately say I am a person who cherishes human rights—the animating issue of my life and a frequent topic of my writing—and remain silent about our country’s legally endorsing infanticide."
Can you remain silent about it?
speechlesstx
May 8, 2013, 09:00 AM
I'll go along with that, but I was captured by the irony of the heading. That's all.
It wasn't irony, it was a mirror held up to the abortion absolutists for them to gaze in and see they've become that which they despise.
Tuttyd
May 9, 2013, 04:05 AM
Your last words, "The right has been saying for a while now that the only thing they want is repeal, and elimination."
That, sir is dishonest.
This goes beyond the regulatory failures and these particular butchers, which we may agree on, though if I ex ever changed his mind about doubting there were INTENTIONAL failures I don't recall it.
We need to have an honest conversation about life, humanity, women's health PLUS the institutional failures by the gods of abortion themselves.
As Kirsten said, "I cannot legitimately say I am a person who cherishes human rights—the animating issue of my life and a frequent topic of my writing—and remain silent about our country's legally endorsing infanticide."
Can you remain silent about it?
I think the problem so far is that there has been recent conflating of the term 'legal'. There are two types of 'legal' that need to be addressed separately.
(a) There is the legal issue when it comes to the law and abortion. In other words ,what does the law say about the time whereby abortion is regarded as being within the law.
(b) There is also the legal issue when it comes to requirements of standards and professionalism as outlined in the various regulation acts.
What we have here are abortionists who are illegal in every way. In other words, illegal in terms of (a) and (b).
(b) is probably not in dispute by anyone. Dangerous standards of health care need to be weeded out and prosecuted- regardless of the type of health care being offered.
What is in dispute is (a). It is possible to satisfy the requirements of both (a) and (b) at the same time in terms of legality.
In order for an honest debate to take place in this thread one now needs to come up with some type of definitive answer to (a).
speechlesstx
May 9, 2013, 04:27 AM
There can never be an honest discussion of (a) as long as the abortion absolutists remain in denial about the humanity of the child and (c), the intentional disregard of (a) by those responsible for enforcing (a).
Tuttyd
May 9, 2013, 04:34 AM
There can never be an honest discussion of (a) as long as the abortion absolutists remain in denial about the humanity of the child and (c), the intentional disregard of (a) by those responsible for enforcing (a).
So how would you define the humanity of the child in terms of (a)?
I am pretty much an absolutist in terms of (a). Humanity beings not long after conception.
speechlesstx
May 9, 2013, 04:49 AM
I don't believe the humanity of the child will ever be codified, that part will require a change of heart. But, this is one of those rare times we should follow Europe's lead as mentioned in an earlier post and end these late term abortions. If Gosnell hasn't shown these are children and not meaningless blobs of flesh I don't know what will.
Tuttyd
May 9, 2013, 04:55 AM
I don't believe the humanity of the child will ever be codified, that part will require a change of heart. But, this is one of those rare times we should follow Europe's lead as mentioned in an earlier post and end these late term abortions. If Gosnell hasn't shown these are children and not meaningless blobs of flesh I don't know what will.
Yes, I am a bit of a realist and a negotiator when it comes to most things. If someone says 24 weeks I say 8. Then I would settler for 14
tomder55
May 9, 2013, 04:57 AM
A child can survive a 2nd trimester abortion (which also requires extinguising the life ,the dismemberment of limbs for the extraction ).As the medicine advances ,the age of viability (if that is the standard )will be younger.Viability is in itself a troubling standard because why is it not also applied to a human outside the womb ?
Tuttyd
May 9, 2013, 05:15 AM
a child can survive a 2nd trimester abortion (which also requires extinguising the life ,the dismemberment of limbs for the extraction ).As the medicine advances ,the age of viability (if that is the standard )will be younger.Viability is in itself a troubling standard because why is it not also applied to a human outside the womb ?
I think part of the problem is that technology has made it possible for a reasonable change of survival at 24 weeks. Prior to this I would imagine that 24 weeks represented very little chance of survival.
I didn't realize this. Apparently in Australia, Victoria is the only state where abortion is legal upon demand.
talaniman
May 9, 2013, 05:42 AM
I am a realist also, and we do have the technology in medicine to prevent making the choice to abort or not abort. It starts with a doctor of your choice though, and some informed responsible decision making as soon as possible. By man, and woman.
If you want people to be responsible, they have to have the tools, and how to use them.
tomder55
May 11, 2013, 02:11 PM
Wasn't sure where to post this ,so this Op is as good as any..
The White House is celebrating Mother's Day by pointing out how many women will not be mothers .
The White House @whitehouse 10 May
Thanks to the #ACA, 1 in 3 women under 65 gained access to preventive care—like birth control—with no out-of-pocket costs. #HappyMothersDayhttps://twitter.com/search?q=%23ACA&src=hash
talaniman
May 11, 2013, 04:00 PM
You rail against the lazy baturds that take free stuff, then you rail against them having more lazy baturds who want free stuff. Then you holler greedy is good.
Geez!!
tomder55
May 11, 2013, 05:25 PM
Yeah Happy Mother's Day . Kill your baby... free of charge .
speechlesstx
May 12, 2013, 04:50 AM
You just don't think we should holler at all Tal. Personally I think having to defend all the indefensible crap from this admin is wearing on you. I mean come on, Mother's day is not for Zero to pat himself on the back for preventing the birth of more mothers.
smoothy
May 13, 2013, 05:03 AM
http://24.media.tumblr.com/f91ac609cd0de11d34f7f590fffd514a/tumblr_mhzgexrPUp1r7jpnlo1_500.jpg
http://scottystarnes.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/liberal-logic-101-264.jpg
paraclete
May 13, 2013, 05:39 AM
All good questions, do something about it
smoothy
May 13, 2013, 12:39 PM
Breaking news... He was found Guilty of three of the four First Degree murder charges as well as an infanticide charge... more than enough to get the death penalty. Something they very much deserve.
talaniman
May 13, 2013, 01:07 PM
Hope the monster in Cleveland gets the same thing.
speechlesstx
May 13, 2013, 02:40 PM
PP offered a typical reaction, no mention of the murdered babies, I guess they aren't victims of his butcher shop - just "let's make sure abortion is safe" and this:
speechlesstx
May 13, 2013, 02:43 PM
P.S. NARAL's response to the verdict was just as appalling, "Kermit Gosnell has been found guilty and will get what he deserves. Now, let’s make sure these women are vindicated by delivering what all women deserve: access to the full range of health services including safe, high-quality and legal abortion care."
REALLY?? He is GUILTY of 1st degree MURDER of 3 BABIES!!
What about the CHILDREN, you jerks??
speechlesstx
May 20, 2013, 07:21 AM
And you thought this Gosnell thing was going away, but no I have no intentions of watching it get swept under the rug or lost in the Twitter cycle. So how many more Gosnells do we have and does anyone care, especially among those who should be regulating abortion clinics and PROTECTING women from butchers? Apparently no one cares in Minnesota, where you can get an abortion at any time up to birth.
There are no regulations to protect the lives and health of women in Minnesota (http://www.startribune.com/opinion/commentaries/207450371.html?refer=y), they leave it up to a "trade association" to police clinics.
It’s horrifying to think that the clinic’s conditions were allowed to lead to a woman’s death in a state that had regulations. But what if it happened here?
Minnesota offers no regulations to protect the health and safety of women seeking abortions. In 1974, the Legislature passed a law (which is still on the books) requiring the health commissioner to license and promulgate rules for abortion clinics. The commissioner adopted clinic regulations in 1974, but a federal district court struck them down.
The Legislature attempted to remedy this dangerous omission by passing a clinic regulations bill in 2012, but Gov. Dayton vetoed the bill. He claimed the regulations were unnecessary because Minnesota clinics are adequately monitored by the National Abortion Federation, a national trade association of abortion clinics.
With no time limits on abortion and no regulation of the clinics, how would we even know if practices like those of Dr. Gosnell are happening in Minnesota? Women and children deserve better..
Leaving aside the unsettling notion of an abortion "trade association", an abortion is a medical procedure. Having a wart frozen off is regulated more heavily than abortions, it's "surgery." So tell me, how can any reasonable person not require standards to protect the lives and health of women, not to mention the child that survives for such medical procedures (http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_late1.htm)??
Induced labor: Medication is administered to the pregnant woman which triggers labor. The woman eventually gives birth to the partly developed fetus.
"D&E" (dilation and evacuation). The physician inserts a long toothed clamp through the woman's vagina into the uterus. She/he grabs body parts of the fetus at random, breaks them from the body and pulls them out. Finally, the head is crushed and extracted. Finally, the placenta and any remaining parts of the fetus are suctioned from the uterus. 1
"D&X" (dilation and extraction) The woman's cervix is dilated. If necessary, the fetus is rotated until it is facing feet downwards. The surgeon reaches into the uterus and pulls the fetus' body, with the exception of its head, out of the woman's body. Surgical scissors are inserted into the base of the fetal skull, and withdrawn. A suction tube is inserted and the fetus' brains are removed through aspiration. This partially collapses the fetal skull. The fetus is then fully removed from the woman's body. 2
How many times have we read here someone throwing a fit at the idea of a physician "forcing a probe" up a woman's vagina before she can have an abortion? Why are you not even more aghast at not only the failure, but as in the case of Minnesota and Pennsylvania the REFUSAL to protect women?
talaniman
May 20, 2013, 07:38 AM
Write your congressman and tell Issa to start an investigation since they are charged with oversight.
Make up your mind whether you want to fund regulators, or defund them.
speechlesstx
May 20, 2013, 07:46 AM
Write your congressman and tell Issa to start an investigation since they are charged with oversight.
Issa is not in charge of oversight in Minnesota.
Make up your mind whether you want to fund regulators, or defund them.
Enough of that straw man, Tal. That's so old and annoying that surely you lefties can come up with something new. We have never pretended regulation was unnecessary, but if there is no state agency tasked with protecting the lives and health of women and children there is nothing to fund. Duh!
talaniman
May 20, 2013, 08:32 AM
Then call the government in Minnesota. DUH!!
speechlesstx
May 21, 2013, 05:06 AM
So you aren't interested in protecting women after all?
speechlesstx
May 21, 2013, 07:01 AM
Abortion outrage of the day, a Republican in Arizona wants to ban third trimester abortions with the usual exceptions because you know, that viability thing. This of course has NARAL outraged...
On Friday, Arizona congressman Trent Franks announced he will be introducing a bill to prohibit abortions after the fifth month of pregnancy, with exceptions for when the mother's life or physical health is at risk. NARAL president Ilyse Hogue condemned the modest restriction (http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/naral-opposes-ban-elective-third-trimester-abortions_724955.html) in a statement:
“Rep. Franks is using this bill in a shameless effort to exploit the terrible tragedy in Pennsylvania where Kermit Gosnell was just convicted of murder for performing illegal abortions that resulted in killing of infants and women. The women of America deserve better.
“Gosnell was a criminal whose activities were made possible by the very kind of anti-choice policies Franks is advancing. By cutting funding, reducing access and imposing unnecessary restrictions on safe and legal abortion, anti-choice politicians have forced women – especially low-income women – into the waiting hands of unscrupulous operators like Kermit Gosnell.
“We will fight this senseless attack and protect the rights of all women.”
Franks's bill would ban most abortions after 20 weeks of gestation, the point at which babies can feel pain and the point at which some babies can survive long-term if born:
"In June 2009, the Journal of the American Medical Association reported a Swedish series of over 300,000 infants," Dr. Colleen Malloy testified before Congress in 2012. "Survival to one year of life of live born infants at 20, 21, 22, 23, and 24 weeks postfertilization age was 10%, 53%, 67%, 82%, and 85%, respectively." So a law restricting abortion after 20 weeks would not run afoul of Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy's dictate that abortion must not be restricted prior to "viability."
Ms. Hogue, the women of America definitely deserve better, better than regulators intentionally turning a blind eye to known butchery. Better than regulating nail salons more heavily than abortion clinics. Better than LYING to women about the child in their womb. Better than refusing to provide medical care to infants born alive from a botched abortion. Better than pompous blowhards like you that care more about legalized infanticide than the women you prey on.
talaniman
May 21, 2013, 07:59 AM
They would really be mad at me because I think you should lose the choice of aborting a pregnancy after 12 weeks. After that you better look at other alternatives. But before then females should be given every advantage in early pregnancy detection and counseling and medical care. They should also be afforded every contraception, and pregnancy prevention method that medical technology can provide including the day after pill.
Hell, if you have sex why wouldn't you take a pill to prevent being pregnant, and avoid making a choice like abortion? Or go to a gynecologist after a missed period? I think we start by recognizing that all females (OR MALES, since it does take two) have the advantage of proper education or guidance that's required to make these life changing decisions in the first place.
That's how we protect people Speech, with knowledge not fear. More compassion, less recrimination and hollering.
NeedKarma
May 21, 2013, 08:10 AM
So you aren't interested in protecting women after all?Neither is anyone who simply makes post after post on forums. Same result as praying - nothing.
speechlesstx
May 21, 2013, 08:17 AM
Neither is anyone who simply makes post after post on forums. Same result as praying - nothing.
Dude, you may be nothing more than a mindless avatar posting useless drivel, but I'm not.
speechlesstx
May 21, 2013, 08:20 AM
They would really be mad at me because I think you should lose the choice of aborting a pregnancy after 12 weeks. After that you better look at other alternatives. But before then females should be given every advantage in early pregnancy detection and counseling and medical care. They should also be afforded every contraception, and pregnancy prevention method that medical technology can provide including the day after pill.
Hell, if you have sex why wouldn't you take a pill to prevent being pregnant, and avoid making a choice like abortion? Or go to a gynecologist after a missed period? I think we start by recognizing that all females (OR MALES, since it does take two) have the advantage of proper education or guidance that's required to make these life changing decisions in the first place.
That's how we protect people Speech, with knowledge not fear. More compassion, less recrimination and hollering.
Tal, if you can't holler about refusing to make sure abortion clinics are clean and safe then there's nothing to discuss, because my friend that is about as far away from COMPASSION as it gets.
talaniman
May 21, 2013, 08:26 AM
I have never argued against clean safe abortion clinics. I have said that the process republicans use to get them there is cruel.
NeedKarma
May 21, 2013, 08:29 AM
Dude, you may be nothing more than a mindless avatar posting useless drivel, but I'm not.How so? Do these threads make you feel better? They certainly don't help anyone so don't try to make us believe they do.
I was away this long weekend actually volunteering.. again. That's what helps people.
speechlesstx
May 21, 2013, 08:36 AM
How so? Do these threads make you feel better? They certainly don't help anyone so don't try to make us believe they do.
I was away this long weekend actually volunteering..again. That's what helps people.
Dude, what is it about people like you that love to denigrate others based on your own ignorant assumptions that feels a need to condescend and pat yourself on the back for your alleged good deeds?
Unlike you I feel no need to boast of what I do to help others, I just help them.
P.S. I'm sure your buddies at AMHD are happy to know you think their site is of no help to anyone.
NeedKarma
May 21, 2013, 09:02 AM
what is it about people like you that love to denigrate others based on your own ignorant assumptions that feels a need to condescend Well it started when you did that exact thing here: https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/butchers-philadelphia-743581-17.html#post3467835
So you aren't interested in protecting women after all?
speechlesstx
May 21, 2013, 09:15 AM
Well it started when you did that exact thing here: https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/butchers-philadelphia-743581-17.html#post3467835
Asking Tal a question is self-congratulatory? Dude.
Look, if you have no desire to contribute to the topic of this thread then feel free to start your own on the usefulness of Ask Me HELP Desk or something, but you're not going to ruin this thread as you do so many others. There is a topic, stick to it.
NeedKarma
May 21, 2013, 10:59 AM
P.S. I'm sure your buddies at AMHD are happy to know you think their site is of no help to anyone.This site does help people in the other forums, just never, ever in Current Events and they know that, that's why it was created.
speechlesstx
May 21, 2013, 02:36 PM
This site does help people in the other forums, just never, ever in Current Events and they know that, that's why it was created.
I'm not the one pretending a current events discussion forum is supposed to help people. Now, do you have anything to add to the topic or do you just want to do some more ankle biting?
speechlesstx
May 24, 2013, 02:49 PM
For your Friday dump, a former abortionist testified before congress in support of a bill banning all abortions after 20 weeks, which is much farther along than our European counterparts allow as noted before. I give you Dr. Anthony Levantino.
5KM-Tz1YKqc
If you can't stomach watching him describe a "normal" D&E, read this to see it from an abortionists eyes. Via Lifesite News (http://www.lifenews.com/2013/05/23/doctor-who-did-1200-abortions-tells-congress-to-ban-them/)
The first task is remove the laminaria that had earlier been placed in the cervix to dilate it sufficiently to allow the procedure you are about to perform. With that accomplished, direct your attention to the surgical instruments arranged on a small table to your right. The first instrument you reach for is a 14-French suction catheter. It is clear plastic and about nine inches long. It has a bore through the center approximately ¾ of an inch in diameter. Picture yourself introducing this catheter through the cervix and instructing the circulating nurse to turn on the suction machine which is connected through clear plastic tubing to the catheter. What you will see is a pale yellow fluid that looks a lot like urine coming through the catheter into a glass bottle on the suction machine. This is the amniotic fluid that surrounded the baby to protect her.
With suction complete, look for your Sopher clamp. This instrument is about thirteen inches long and made of stainless steel. At the end are located jaws about 2 ½ inches long and about ¾ of an inch wide with rows of sharp ridges or teeth. This instrument is for grasping and crushing tissue. When it gets hold of something, it does not let go. A second trimester D&E abortion is a blind procedure. The baby can be in any orientation or position inside the uterus. Picture yourself reaching in with the Sopher clamp and grasping anything you can. At twenty-four weeks gestation, the uterus is thin and soft so be careful not to perforate or puncture the walls. Once you have grasped something inside, squeeze on the clamp to set the jaws and pull hard–really hard. You feel something let go and out pops a fully formed leg about six inches long. Reach in again and grasp whatever you can. Set the jaw and pull really hard once again and out pops an arm about the same length. Reach in again and again with that clamp and tear out the spine, intestines, heart and lungs.
The toughest part of a D&E abortion is extracting the baby’s head. The head of a baby that age is about the size of a large plum and is now free floating inside the uterine cavity. You can be pretty sure you have hold of it if the Sopher clamp is spread about as far as your fingers will allow. You will know you have it right when you crush d own on the clamp and see white gelatinous material coming through the cervix. That was the baby’s brains. You can then extract the skull pieces. Many times a little face will come out and stare back at you.
Congratulations! You have just successfully performed a second trimester Suction D&E abortion. You just affirmed her right to choose. If you refuse to believe that this procedure inflicts severe pain on that unborn child, please think again.
But it's not a baby, right?