This suggestion by the gun lobby is so obscene it requires its own thread
Sandy Hook massacre a 'hoax', say conspiracy theorists | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/world/sandy-hook-massacre-was-a-government-plot-the-new-truthers-believe/story-fndir2ev-1226556093112)
You know the enemy has lost the debate when they resort to tactics like this, this suggestion is absolutely obscene. The thought that a government would plan and launch an attack on it's own citizens, and children at that, to gain political advantage is absolute paranoia, and a clear reason why military style weapons must be removed from the hands of the lunatic fringe. People who think this way are not rational. This is pure white supremist propaganda which is directly associated with the gun lobby

You know... you say it is a suggestion by the gun lobby yet I don't see anywhere in that article where it actually claims such a thing. I don't see anyone associated with any gun groups saying that. But you need to say that it is just to get your point across. Soon you will point out somewhere that the NRA made this claim.

I read that article and all I saw were individual people. I saw nothing that tagged any of these people as gun lobbyists or anything... conspiracy theorists maybe.

Also, somehow it is white supremacist propaganda? How do you figure that?And directly associated with the gun lobby. Show me where it says any of that.

One. Aren't I entitled to my own conspiracy theory or is that reserved for the pro gun lobby?

I don't see any conspiracy theory from you. All I see you doing is sensationalizing the article and twisting it to fit your own views.

And again... I see nowhere in that article that any of this was connected to the pro gun lobby. You just danced around my points to avoid answering me and then again you throw up the "pro gun lobby" crap like as if that's the end all answer to whatever point you're trying to make.

Two strawmen but you don't address the questions posed by this article, for example what sort of twisted mind thinks a government of what is suggested to be the bravest, fairest nation on Earth? Would put forward such a preposterous position?we will debate those points later no doubt, how can you defend these people by attacking me? Do you honestly think that the person/s who did this is not motivated by the gun lobby, perhaps even funded by the gun lobby? There is no legitemacy in the fact that this comes from an academic and that this somehow not authored by those who support the pro gun lobby. I see its supporters and the lobby as part of the same twisted self interest group

What do I really need to address in this article? It's not reflecting my point of view at all. It's not anything I have heard from anyone I know. Why should I address it if it's not my belief? So there are people in the world that have some crazy ideas. Is this new to you? There are people that think they have been abducted by UFOs. There are people who swear Bigfoot lives in their back yard. There are people who swear the Holocaust never happened. Should we address all of these? I guess not because you know, they're just crazy ideas but they have nothing to do with guns. So because the ideas in this article do deal with guns in a round-about way, then it must be only gun owners and the pro gun lobby that have insane and crazy ideas.

And really... I am not defending anyone. Point out to me where I defended anyone in that article by "attacking" you. I did not. You cast the first stone by twisting this article into something that all pro gun lobbyists believe and think. You further twisted it by making a connection between pro gun lobbyists and white supremacist groups. I take offense to that. I am fully pro gun but I do not believe in any supremacist groups. Because I am pro gun does not make me a racist no matter how you spin it.

Now we have the nub of what you object to in the thread. Ok so you don't agree with the porposition put forward by the wacho academic, I really didn't expect many would and I do find such a proposition, to give it its correct name; conspiracy theory, not only offensive but obscene.

That it emerged immediately after measures were announced that respond to the obscene event in Newtown is not coincidence. You can be pro gun all you like but you cannot deny that the present situation needs some strong measures to prevent future occurrence of these massacres. I find it interesting that you brought bigfoot into this, Did you find him while out hunting? Or do you confine your hunting to other obscure phenomenon?

Being anti gun is not equivalent to being a holocaust denier, just another strawman you ran across the trail. Fact is this thread is specifically about disinformation, about the lengths that the pro gun camp will go to and surprisingly you seem like a reasonable person so why would you align yourself with such people?

example what sort of twisted mind thinks a government of what is suggested to be the bravest, fairest nation on Earth? Would put forward such a preposterous position?

The 9/11 Truth Movement - 911truth.org (http://www.911truth.org/)

http://www.freedomfiles.org/war/pentagon.htm

So you got them, why don't you declare them a terrorist organisation and disband them, sedition is not free speech

Sedition laws are unconstitutional ,they have been since the John Adams adm. His sedition laws were never tested in court because judicial review had not been established yet... but they came real close to dissolving the union a decade into it's creation .
But in a couple of subsequent cases the idea that sedition laws are unconstitutional has been affirmed .
"Suppression of speech as an effective police measure is an old, old device, outlawed by our Constitution." Justice William O. Douglas 'Watts v United States '.

You guys are nuts, NUTS

Yeah a police state is a much less messy affair.

I find it interesting that you brought bigfoot into this, Did you find him while out hunting? or do you confine your hunting to other obscure phenomenon?



You see this? This is the reason why I choose not to get into these threads with you normally. Because I bring up a point, then you twist it to however you want in a way to try and make me look like an idiot.

If you read what I wrote, you will see that I was bringing up crazy ideas that people have... crazy ideas from people that aren't necessarily part of the pro gun lobby. Nowhere did I say I believe in or hunt bigfoot yet you had to throw that in there to try and make me look like a fool. You talk about strawmen yet I can now say that you play with smoke and mirrors. When you can't defend a point or make your own, you play games to try and distract from the real issue... case in point, trying to make me look like a fool that is out hunting for bigfoot simply because I mentioned him as an example.

Again, this is why I don't debate with you. I have debated with people like you in the past and I find no need for it. When you face something you can't answer you play games and make subtle insults as if you are a superior intellect or being. I have learned my lesson. I thought I could debate here but I see I should have just stayed silent as I usually try to do. Now, I will go back to ignoring these threads as I am done trying to debate with someone that debates in this way. Don't bother to reply to me as I am going to unsubscribe to this thread.

Because I bring up a point, then you twist it to however you want in a way to try and make me look like an idiot.That's par for the course by our conservative friends in the Current Events forum. :) I agree it's frustrating but it seems to be an accepted method of discussion here.

Hello clete:

If you look around, you'll see some right wingers on these pages, who BELIEVE that the AG gave weapons to the Mexican drug cartel, so they would KILL an American border agent. They did this for the sole purpose of SOFTENING up the opposition, so Obama could round up all the guns...

Personally, I don't see a whole lot of difference between the two conspiracy theory's. They're BOTH obscene!

excon

Clete ,If you look around, you'll see some left wingers on these pages, who BELIEVE that Bush intentionally withheld vital aid to the victims of Hurricane Katrina because they were blacks .

Tom there are many conspiracy theories and I expect that incompetence can look like a conspiracy. Hurricane Katrina as an example, there were many blacks in distress so it is possible some didn't receive the help they needed or expected, an entirely different thing to suggesting that through covert action the government actually created and executed a plan to kill twenty children in a school so gun regulation could be tightened. It is obscene. Obama has already shown there was much action he could and should have already taken without needing the Congress to endorse his actions.

I don't doubt his incompetence rivals Bush in this respect since inaction is incompetence, and that incompetence may well have permitted the circumstance where the massacre could happen but we cannot say Obama is overtly guilty or complicit of their deaths.

Hello again, tom:


some left wingers on these pages, who BELIEVE that Bush intentionally withheld vital aid to the victims of Hurricane Katrina because they were blacks .Nahhh... Even if Brownie LOVED black people, he was too incompetent to get them food and shelter...

Plus, I NEVER said Bush is a racist. That's cause I don't think he is. Nor did I say anything LIKE that which you attribute to me...

Excon

I don't think the NRA, or pro gun folks are that crazy myself, but I have no doubt gun sales go up every time a loony hollers.

Or the prez gives a speech.

Yes Guns the never die fashion accessory

Paranoia is their fashion statement.

Yes every man should have one slung like a scotish sporan and women could wear them around their neck, very macho, very chic

No sir, you can't pin that nonsense on the gun lobby. Get real, Clete.

Its too stupid to pin on anyone but the ones who spread that kind of crap.

No sir, you can't pin that nonsense on the gun lobby. Get real, Clete.

Honestly speech they don't need me to pin nonsense on them, they are doing that for themselves. Every school must have armed guards, all the teachers trained and carrying guns, get real! All they are interested in is selling more guns

No one said all the teachers trained and carrying guns. It would be completely voluntary .Armed guards is a very good idea.

Yes Tom and the federal government can pay for it, right? More pump priming, or do you call that boondogglin over there? Who is going to pay for the psych evaluations? Or does just anyone get a carry permit?

Tom Ideas have to be paid for, good or bad, they have to be paid for, and you know who is going to pay, don't you

Yes Tom and the federal government can pay for it, right? No ,that would be up to the local governments. You see ;right now only elite schools like the ones that the Obama kids attend has armed guards.Many inner city schools get regular police patrols. If I was told my school taxes were going to be used to hire armed guards I would consider it money well spent . Even better ;take it out of the budgets of the over-bloated school administrations.

Tom, niaive view, if they hire armed guards, that means extra tax. Aren't you the fellow who was bleating about Obama raising taxes. People always float ideas that won't cost them money, just someoneelse. Remember OPM. What you are really saying is raise local taxes for armed guards, but Tom, can they raise taxes for more police?

Tom, niaive view, if they hire armed guards, that means extra tax. Arn't you the fellow who was bleating about Obama raising taxes. people always float ideas that won't cost them money, just someoneelse. remember OPM. What you are really saying is raise local taxes for armed guards, but Tom, can they raise taxes for more police?

Like I said ;school districts here could easily shuffle spending priorities. Many schools already hire guards . It's just a matter of hiring guards who are trained in firearms. There are many retired cops and returning vets that could use a job.
As far as school taxes go... I don't know about the rest of the country ;but here in NY ,property taxes are like paying a 2nd mortgage on the home .Alot of that goes to the school districts . Typically when you break down their budgets ,there is lots of waste .You know that much of that is NOT going into teaching resources that's for sure.
Clete ,I have less of an issue with local taxes so long as they are efficiently administered . All a local gov. needs to show me is a compelling need. My problem with Federal taxes goes deeper because they venture into many areas where they have no constitutional mandate.

like I said ;school districts here could easily shuffle spending priorities. ... Typically when you break down their budgets ,there is lots of waste .You know that much of that is NOT going into teaching resources that's for sure.
And how will that change?

Let see if I get this straight, you can't raise taxes on anybody, and when teachers are being cut you want them to volunteer and be armed guards for our kids. But you don't want to pay for more cops? About the size of it?

Glad Obama is willing to send funding for more cops to increase security if they think they need it.

White House may consider funding for police in schools after Newtown - Washington Post (http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-01-10/politics/36272645_1_gun-buyers-gun-violence-ban-on-high-capacity-ammunition)

Yeah yeah ;those 100,000 cops the Dems talk about but never produce

Repubs don't like to fund cops, teachers, and firefighters, or children left behind, or drugs for seniors, let the free market take care of them if they can afford it. Or cut somebody's pay, or better yet, they should volunteer.

Anything but raise taxes on the rich... oops, my bad... job creators like Mitt, or Tom.

What happened to the 100,000 cops the last time ? What happened to the teachers the stimulus was going to fund? Oh that's right ,the union got the bucks .

When the money ran out after two years some got canned. What you thought that money would last a decade? Of course you did since you don't believe the stimulus worked any way. While the job creators continue to trickle down jobs like they do the money.

Blame everybody but the capitalist, and their business cycle model of extractionism. That's why Mitt and his boys are a bad investment for the rest of us.

Anyway ;cops are good for taking a body count and doing the forensics after the massacre. I'm sure Newtown has a perfectly good police force. But they weren't there when needed.

Man are you behind, there have been many deaths since Newtown, and four are campuses. Watching one now in Houston. At least send more body bags we seem to need more. I know we're broke.

How could that be ? Lone Star College is a gun free zone .

It is the policy of this System to prohibit the carrying of firearms, knives and clubs onto any of the System's facilities. The possession of firearms, illegal knives and prohibited knives on System facilities including parking areas and publicly accessed facilities is a violation of criminal law and Board policies. This prohibition includes licensed concealed handguns except as otherwise allowed by state law.

Weapons On Premises (http://www.lonestar.edu/weapons-premises.htm)

And the story of the 15-year-old boy in Albuquerque who had no history of problems but Saturday used a semi-automatic assault rifle to kill the four members of his family (because he was mad at his mom)?

Let see if I get this straight, you can't raise taxes on anybody, and when teachers are being cut you want them to volunteer and be armed guards for our kids. But you don't want to pay for more cops? About the size of it?



That's the size of it and he actually thinks Local Government is a better manager of money than Federal government. Local government is run by politicians too Tom, if schools could manage funds better and had waste they wouldn't have to lay off teachers and you think school funds should be used not to employ teachers but to employ armed guards. I really have to ask, what sort of pecular world do you live in; where guns are more important than children, where guns are more important than education

I know what school funding is now ;and I can tell you that they could build schools with gold lining for the amt of money wasted in schools. But the left thinks throwing more money at schools solves problems. No surprise there since they think throwing money at problems solves everything. The only problem is that it doesn't... kids don't get better educations... results get worse ,not better .

I know what school funding is now ;and I can tell you that they could build schools with gold lining for the amt of money wasted in schools. But the left thinks throwing more money at schools solves problems. No surprise there since they think throwing money at problems solves everything. The only problem is that it doesn't ..... kids don't get better educations...results get worse ,not better .

Must be your system of allowing local government to be involved in education, the boondoggle economy. I expect that if more money is provided they expect it to be invested in teachers, but what happened to the Bush era boondoggle of no child left behind? Are you really criticizing the initiatives of the Republicans and their legacy

Absolutely... the Federal Government should not be involved. If it were up to me ,I'd dismantle the Dept of Education . NCLB was one of those reach out programs that Bush did when he "reached across the aisle " and " compromised" with Ted Kennedy. That was one of his big government initiatives . The other was the biggest expansion in Medicare since it was created .

Okay so now you are willing to throw Bush overboard along with teachers if you could just have your guns, If Bush made a hash of education, is it possible dumbo made some mistakes in military adventurism, and in so many other policies, that mean the situation you find yourself in was a republican debacle not a democrat one. No wonder the people want to keep Republicans out of office

What are you talking about. The libs have been in control of the school systems in my state for decades.. and they suck. Kids get left behind and we vote the culprits back in for more. At least NCLB was an effort to go a different direction. I would move towards privatization... but that's just me.

Wait a minute you were just against that program. So now you would like to privatise schools. Schools run for profit, not a model that has been found to work very well unless you are elite and can afford to pay. Your community is already staggering under the weight of providing tertiary education on that model and you would impose that burden earlier on parents. I see a lot of kids left behind on that model because parents wouldn't be able to afford to send them to school. You would create an underclass but then that has always been the capitalist objective

The libs have been in control of the school systems in my state for decades.. and they suck. I've asked this before : why are the conservatives so incredibly powerless in this respect? Is this not a priority for them?

NY doesn't even have a viable Republican party

They suck in Mississippi as far as education also and they have a viable republican party. Lets be fair, the political affiliations have nothing to do with an effective national education system, since locals who have authority have dwindling resources, but eliminating the Dept of Ed. May be great on paper, but where would the impetus be to achieve a global standard instead of a local one?

Separate but equal is a disgusting way to educate, and a waste.

They suck in Mississippi as far as education also and they have a viable republican party. Lets be fair, the political affiliations have nothing to do with an effective national education system, since locals who have authority have dwindling resources, but eliminating the Dept of Ed. may be great on paper, but where would the impetus be to achieve a global standard instead of a local one?

Separate but equal is a disgusting way to educate, and a waste.


Exactly, the whole idea is to depoliticise education as much as possible.

Perhaps you do education a bit like electing the President in the recent elections. Some states do it very well and others do if very poorly.

On that basis I would agree that you need some national standards otherwise rise becoming ethnocentric.

Exactly, the whole idea is to depoliticise education as much as possible.

Perhaps you do education a bit like electing the President in the recent elections. Some states do it very well and others do if very poorly.

On that basis I would agree that you need some national standards otherwise rise becoming ethnocentric.

I see national standards as standardized mediocrity.