Funny that, I don't remember many news reports that say the murder was committed with a homemade gun. LOL. More nonsense.

Well you have just proven you are worse informed and more clueless about this than you even appear to be...

Try Google... you will be surprised what you can turn up. You might even find it enlightening. Detailed Plans and drawings. And the truly inept can forgo making their own gun and just make their own explosives... that would require even less skill or ability... that latter being something that would be easier for the average liberal to pull off anyway.

Because after all... we know crime doesn't exist in Canada... everyone leaves their keys in their cars, houses unlocked and banks don't need safes. Nobody cooks up Meth or other drugs, it's a veritable Utopia...

Try Google... you will be surprised what you can turn up.All right, show me reports.

It uses somewhat malleable plastic but I guess that could be used as mold.

Functional gus have been already printed using 3D printers (I know of only a couple however thus far)... most commercial guns use forgings... not castings... castings are inherently weak.

You would use a mold for a casting... forgings require dies which require a great deal of skill to make. Well beyond someone working in their basement or garage.

Functional gus have been printed using 3D printers.Ok, show me some proof.

Homemade Gun Technology Vexes Effort to Control Weapons (http://www.voanews.com/content/homemade-gun-technology-vexes-effort-to-control-weapons/1585583.html)

I know the theory exists. Smoothy is trying to say that people are already doing it and committing crimes with these weapons. Which is not the case but he persists with it.

I know the theory exists. Smoothy is trying to say that people are already doing it and committing crimes with these weapons. Which is not the case but he persists with it.

Typical liberal... puting words in other peoples mouths...


Show me where exactly I said crimes were already be committed using 3d printer created guns?

What I said was there have been several functional guns made with 3d printers. Its not theory... its already been done several times so its scientific fact, it stops being theory once its been done and proven to work.

Funny that, I don't remember many news reports that say the murder was committed with a homemade gun. LOL. More nonsense.


Well you have just proven you are worse informed and more clueless about this than you even appear to be....

Try Google...you wil be surprised what you can turn up. You might even find it enlightening.

Still waiting.

Still waiting.

Um, "homemade" does not necessarily mean with a 3D printer. People have used "homemade" guns for a long, long time and yes, to commit crimes.

Apparently that's hasn't an issue for a long, long time? Why is it allowed? Likely because very. Very few people have actually done this.

Still waiting for smoothy to wow me with his Google finds.

Maybe it hasn't been an issue lately, but many a zip gun has been made and used against others. Homemade weapons are more sophisticated now, but still easily doable as in the past.

Um, "homemade" does not necessarily mean with a 3D printer. People have used "homemade" guns for a long, long time and yes, to commit crimes.

If they lived in the USA they would have voted for Obama... reality and facts mean nothing to them. THey believe what they want to believe... and don't care what others have actuially said.

And they still haven't shown where I said 3d printed guns were used in crimes... and they can't... because I never said it.

And like you said... homemade guns have been used for a very, very long time... they were called a "zip gun" in the days before I was born.

They can Google it up themselves... its only two words.

And they are likely used far more often than are publicly disclosed... because they can be broken back down to parts that would never appear to be related to such an assembly.

Even the average inner city liberal has the limited brainpower required to make such a device. You don't have to be an MIT graduate.

If they can't look it up for themselves I'm not going to show them how to do it.

Apparently that's hasn't an issue for a long, long time? Why is it allowed? Likely because very. very few people have actually done this.

Still waiting for smoothy to wow me with his Google finds.

It you are a fraction of the mental giant you think you are... you can type those two three letter words into Google.

You find LOTS of results... even Utube videos on page ONE of the results. I'm sure you can handle that. Unless of course Canada censors the Internet like China does.

Funny how I figured out how to do that as a teenager in the mid 1970's without the Internet... or books... or someone to show me how... and yet even with the internet... it escapes your ability to understand how it can be done.

Let me google that for you (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=zip+gun)

Ok I see one instance in 1982. Anything else I'm missing?




and yet even with the internet... it escapes your ability to understand how it can be done.I keep forgetting how incredibly amazing you are... but it's OK, you remind us continuously. :D

I keep forgetting how incredibly amazing you are ... but it's ok, you remind us continuously. :D

Do you also wonder what people did in the days before cell phones when they got a flat tire?

You are aware cars and trucks come with spare tires... jacks and lug wrenches? And most people actually know how to change a flat without having to call someone else to do it for them.

Its amazing that you think its so incredibly difficult to do this stuff.

Do you also wonder what people did in the days before cell phones when they got a flat tire?

You are aware cars and trucks come with spare tires....jacks and lug wrenches? And most people actually know how to change a flat without having to call someone else to do it for them.

Its amazing that you think its so incredibly difficult to do this stuff.

Smoothy you speak of another world, another time, before we became too lazy and uneducated to do meniel tasks for ourselves. Today if you don't have satnav you don't know where you are, I've never used one, If you don't have internet access on your mobile you melt down into a quivering wreck unable to get a Facebook or twitter fix, I don't access the web on my mobile, but I observe the mess it has made of the lives of my teenage grandchildren. The present generation doesn't understand how it has been setup for a huge fall

Smoothy you speak of another world, another time, before we became too lazy and uneducated to do meniel tasks for ourselves. Today if you don't have satnav you don't know where you are, I've never used one, If you don't have internet access on your mobile you melt down into a quivering wreck unable to get a facebook or twitter fix, I don't access the web on my mobile, but I observe the mess it has made of the lives of my teenage grandchildren. The present generation doesn't understand how it has been setup for a huge fall

Trust me... every week I see a fairly new vehicle, many of them Trucks and SUV's abandoned on the side of the road with a single flat tire... with perfectly good spares visibly hanging from under them. And I shake my head.

Hell I knew one guy who called a tow truck when he got a flat in a company truck... of course he called me AFTER he called the tow company... said he couldn't find the jack... I asked him if he looked under the passenger seat from the passenger door? Got a damn... that's where it was from him. Keep in mind I never used it and I was just guessing because I knew it had one someplace... my truck has the jack in the engine bay of all places..

My mom had to learn to change a flat tire before they would let her get a license to drive.

I know its not just a USA thing.. because I see it even more often in Italy... people not knowing how to do anything if its not part of their job.

Brother-in-law is a case in point... we have similar backgrounds and a year different in age... Both of us highly skilled in Electronics and Communications. Literally between the both of us we could cover almost everything.

But he couldn't get his car started for an entire month one year when I happened to go there on vacation... (it needed a tuneup) I told him to put plugs, points, condenser and wires on it... he then said now it doesn't run at all... so I went to take a look at it... asked him what he gapped the points at? He asked they have to be adjusted?

Sure enough they were so far off they weren't even opening and closing... asked him if he had feeler gauges... nope... asked him if he had a book of matches... luckily he did... used the matchbook cover to set the gap, and it fired right up... ran smooth as silk (its not perfect but very close to the right gap). He looked at me and asked how I knew how to do that... I could only ask how could you NOT know? Yes this was an older car... a real POS Fiat 127.

He'll give me 50% of his business if I ever decide to move over there full time and work with him... I've taught him how to do a LOT of things over the years that was outside of his job field.

Smoothy

I really don't understand this idea that everyone should drive a truck, is it just the snow and ice you have to contend with? There is no point in driving a vehicle where the tyres are so heavy you have difficulty lifting them into place or your can't do some basic maintenance on..

Modern vehicles don't need feeler guages smoothy, they are throwaway after 100,000 miles at best, if you can't last that long without major repairs, where are you

Smoothy

I really don't understand this idea that everyone should drive a truck, is it just the snow and ice you have to contend with? there is no point in driving a vehicle where the tyres are so heavy you have difficulty lifting them into place or your can't do some basic maintenance on..

Modern vehicles don't need feeler guages smoothy, they are throwaway after 100,000 miles at best, if you can't last that long without major repairs, where are you

Any modern car that's worn out at 100K miles is a piece of junk these days... though 20+ years ago that really was fairly common.

Like I said it was an older car and this was years ago... the Fiat 127 was from the mid 1970's and it was about 20 some years old at the time I dealt with it.

And as far as why everyone thinks they need a truck or a huge SUV? Your guess is as good as mine... most of them don't NEED a truck. Likely just men and women compensating for something.

One truck I drive is a company owned truck... they need me to to get anything I need... anywhere I need to be, in any weather we might have.

My personal truck gets used less than a thousand miles a year... and all of that when I am hauling something big. The rest of the time I drive one of my cars because its cheaper and more comfortable.. or during really bad weather (heavy snow or ice) where my car would likely have problems... which is really fairly rare. My employer NEVER closes for inclimate weather.

America is full of Do It Yourselfers. Many of us have skills and just love the doing, and all the money we save. That's not going to change, nor are the ones who use their skills for bad ever going to go away. It's the law abiding among us that have to keep the criminals and predators in check. Unless we are united in that effort, the bad guys have the advantage since no rules or laws will stop them from doing what they do for whatever reason.

Doesn't really matter what our talking points and idealogical leanings are, we still have to combine our efforts against the bad guys and that's the point. As long as we fight each other they win.

That's just not acceptable. If 91% of the nation agrees on backgound checks for all gun sales, then lets do it and get on with the rest. I have no problem with identifying and prosecuting lawful citizens who buy a bunch of guns for their criminal buddies in the city where they can't get them otherwise.

Now what's wrong with that?

The problem is they already DO background checks and HAVE required them for a LOT of years now... and there are already laws on the books preventing people who shouldn't have guns from having them... if they would enforce exiting law.

Also the only reason they would want a registry to to know where to go after the guns when enough communist loons get together and decide the Constitution and Bill of Rights mean nothing any longer, which apparently is right now.

People that don't respect the 2nd amendment have no respect for any of the others either.

The problem is they already DO background checks....and there are already laws on the books preventing people who shouldn't have guns from having them....if they would enforce exiting law.

Also the only reason they would want a registry to to know where to go after the guns when enough communist loons get together and decide the Constitution and Bill of Rights mean nothing any longer, which apparently is right now.

People that don't respect the 2nd amendment have no respect for any of the others either.

I think your missing a point here. And Tal is guilty of missing one also. So Im going to try to break it down.

Tal, a straw purchase is illegal already. Most are acquired with a background check being done. It is the activity that takes place after the sale is complete that is the illegal portion where it isn't being addressed by law enforcement. There already are laws to prevent it but criminals don't care much for laws anyway.

Smoothy, What Tal is pointing to is the end of the private hand to hand sale. Many states allow weapons to be exchanged without a FFL or being checked out because it is a private sale. That is what is being called an end to. All sales even private should go through a FFL for a background check. The hope being it will cut down on the number of straw purchases happening today.

I think your missing a point here. And Tal is guilty of missing one also. So Im going to try to break it down.

Tal, a straw purchase is illegal already. Most are aquired with a background check being done. It is the activity that takes place after the sale is complete that is the illegal portion where it isnt being addressed by law enforcement. There already are laws to prevent it but criminals dont care much for laws anyway.

Smoothy, What Tal is pointing to is the end of the private hand to hand sale. Many states allow weapons to be exchanged without a FFL or being checked out because it is a private sale. That is what is being called an end to. All sales even private should go through a FFL for a background check. The hope being it will cut down on the number of straw purchases happening today.

I oppose that because they are trying to prevent weapons from being handed down to your children or gifted to them... and if they get what they want.. legal weapons would be confiscated.

That coveted 1960s per-forward assist AR-15 you have... no, your son will never get it because a transfer is legally a sale and if they ban them.. you can't sell it to anyone...

And again it's a back door way to find out who has what that they have possessed for decades and in some cases generations.

They have always wanted to know exactly who owned what so they would know what to confiscate and from whom.

They just try to pass it off under different wording all the time.. but it's the same people and its always the same goal.

And strangely enough they are the same people that want the death penalty outlawed.. and want fewer criminals held in jail.

Most states make it illegal but not even a felony, such as Arizona. But a federal law with stiff federal enforcement, yes even for pawn shops, gets them and there guns off the street.

I agree with the enforcement, and for that you have to have evidence, and nothing like a paper trail that shows wrongdoing to present in a court of law.

Maybe criminals are smarter than the lawmakers. But if 40% of all gun sales are subject to background checks, seems to me that's where I start to close those gaps. Open to suggestions though.


I oppose that because they are trying to prevent weapons from being handed down to your children or gifted to them... and if they get what they want.. legal weapons would be confiscated.

If your son is a nut, or a criminal then of course he shouldn't get his hands on it.

I oppose that because they are trying to prevent weapons from being handed down to your children or gifted to them....and if they get what they want..legal weapons would be confiscated.

That coveted 1960s per-forward assist AR-15 you have.....no, your son will never get it because a transfer is a sale and if they ban them..you can't sell it to anyone....

And again its a back door way to find out who has what that they have possessed for decades and in some cases generations.

Actually it is not. And right now banning anything is not part of what I said. You can still have your checks at the local level without having a national registration. The "feds" don't have anything to do with it other then making sure the paperwork is in order. It can be done.

What is being proposed at least by Tal in the post is that we start somewhere. Start at a point that can be agreed upon and expand from there.


I will throw this one out there. I wouldn't be against a national bullet registration. The difference being that the bullet is tied to a number that goes back to the FFL. And the FFL would be responsible for the collection od 1 fired round and send it off to the ATF national office with a registration number. The feds don't have to know anything unless that bullet is recovered in a crime and then they could contact the FFL holder with a warrant for the information.

That way tracking can take place but no personal identification follows the gun in private hands.

Actually it is not. And right now banning anything is not part of what I said. You can still have your checks at the local level without having a national registration. The "feds" dont have anything to do with it other then making sure the paperwork is in order. It can be done.

What is being proposed atleast by Tal in the post is that we start somewhere. Start at a point tht can be agreed upon and expand from there.


I will throw this one out there. I wouldnt be against a national bullet registration. The difference being that the bullet is tied to a number that goes back to the FFL. And the FFL would be responsible for the collection od 1 fired round and send it off to the ATF national office with a registration number. The feds dont have to know anything unless that bullet is recovered in a crime and then they could contact the FFL holder with a warrant for the information.

That way tracking can take place but no personal identification follows the gun in private hands.
I am absolutely and utterly opposed to anything the that even appears to be a bullet registry or tax... again its exactly the same means to a common goal.. disarming the American population so an ever increasingly Tyrannical government can take away what few of our rights that remain.

Again.. there is no other excuse for it... Read Rules for radicals... achieve progressively what you can not get in a single action.

All they care about is taking away our RIGHTS one step at a time...

And it's a completely non-negotiable position.

Today they CLAIM its not going to take away guns people would inherit from their parents... by requiring everything to go through a dealer... of course they ignore their feverish attempts to outlaw anything more powerful than a cork gun... because you can not transfer something to a new owner once its been banned... a transfer is a sale... and sales are not grandfathered when ownership changes.

I've got something most people on this forum don't have... almost 3 decades of working in and around government agencies... in ways few people fathom...

I've got every reason to hear BS flying every time a politician opens their mouth publicly. Because I've seen way too much of what they were flapping their gums about unfiltered over the years...

Police publicly claim they don't have quotas for traffic tickets... because those are illegal... do you know any well enough personally to tell you what rubbish that really is?

Do you believe anything much less everything a politician gets on the boob tube pushing?

The only problem with checks at the local level, is the criminal who is clean locally in one place, but a criminal in another location. I think even the local authorities have to have a national data base for a proper background check.

I am absolutely and utterly opposed to anything the that even appears to be a bullet registry or tax...again its exactly the same means to a common goal..disarming the American population so an ever increasingly Tyrannical government can take away what few of our rights that remain.

Again..there is no other excuse for it.... Read Rules for radicals....achieve progressively what you can not get in a single action.

All they care about is taking away our RIGHTS one step at a time...

And its a completely non-negotiable position.

How is it that the government can take your rights when they have no idea who you are ?

That is the whole point of keeping it local while also covering the national scene.


The only problem with checks at the local level, is the criminal who is clean locally in one place, but a criminal in another location. I think even the local authorities have to have a national data base for a proper background check.

If you are a felon then your in the database already. The local level is a Statewide level not just your town that you live in.

Great for towns but moving from Texas to South Carolina shouldn't be a way to clean up or hide the past should it?

As far as Arizona law goes on straw purchases I can't find that it is a felony but it carries a severe penalty. 10 years in jail or 250,000 dollar fine.

SW Border Campaign Targets Illegal Gun Purchases (http://www.finanznachrichten.de/nachrichten-2013-01/25856209-sw-border-campaign-targets-illegal-gun-purchases-008.htm)


PDF:

http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7lgfHBNRmTUAaFdXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTByYWkyZ2E wBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNwRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkAw--/SIG=13lept6m7/EXP=1360235679/**http%3a//www.atf.gov/press/releases/2009/08/081309-pho-atf-usao-stop-illegal-firearms-purchases.pdf

Great for towns but moving from Texas to South Carolina shouldn't be a way to clean up or hide the past should it?

How is it doing that?

That way tracking can take place but no personal identification follows the gun in private hands.

Do you actually believe when they have access to that information... that's not exactly what they will do with it? Sorry to tell you but you obviously haven't spent any time around the government.. at least none of the places that have the capacity to compile and use this info away from prying eyes, under the disguise of National Security.

And I'm dangerously close to saying things I shouldn't be saying at this point. Lets say I know enough to both respect and fear what the government CAN do right now... not at some mythical point in the future.

Do you actually believe when they have access to that information...that's not exactly what they will do with it? Sorry to tell you but you obviously haven't spent any time around the government..at least none of the places that have the capacity to compile and use this info away from prying eyes, under the disguise of National Security.

And I'm dangerously close to saying things I shouldn't be saying at this point.

So your saying that even though there is no personal identification that goes with it that there actually is ?

The only way they could get the information would be to raid your local FFL or present a warrant for that specific bullet registration number.

So your saying that even though there is no personal identification that goes with it that there actually is ?

The only way they could get the information would be to raid your local FFL or present a warrant for that specific bullet registration number.

You actually believe that... do you? The BATF controls all of that... they are run by people appointed politically... not elected.

WACO and Ruby Ridge showed how honest and trustworthy that group is.

I could give you specific examples if things the fly in the face of that belief... however... that crosses a line on things I can't discuss. Because nobody on a forum is worth the trouble that could get me into.

However a recent very public leak of a memo about drone strikes on American citizens abroad is an example... no proof really needed... no warrants issued... no other real check or balance... just go kill this person with a drone because a Politician feels they might be a threat. That's been on the news a few days now... and it shows the drift of what I said.

Warrants only matter if they plan on trying you in a public court proceeding with that info... not for a lot of other things... or to invent a reason to later go back for a warrant to get the information they already had... its cloaked in secrecy... who's going to disprove the timeline they claim?

Now you defend a terrorist right to kill us??

Now you defend a terrorist right to kill us????????

YOU are one of the people arguing not long ago GITMO should be closed.. and that water-boarding terrorists caught in battle violated their constitutional rights... because GITMO is US territiory. Not because they were citizens.

The people I speak of have not committed any acts against us yet anyplace... and unlike the people in GITMO... they actually DO have constitutional rights YOU did see that memo on the news didn't you? It was pretty self explanatory.

YOU are one of the people arguing not long ago GITMO should be closed..and that water-boarding terrorists caught in battle violated their constitutional rights...because GITMO is US territiory. Not because they were citizens.

The people I speak of have not committed any acts against us yet anyplace....and unlike the people in GITMO...they actually DO have constitutional rights YOU did see that memo on the news didn't you? It was pretty self explanatory.

It should be closed and the people in it can await trail, or whatever, in a Supermax facility. I am against torture.

I am for drone warfare as a better way to kill the enemy without boots on the ground in hostile territory. When you join the other side in a time of war, you die where I find you.

SUE ME!!

Yeah. The fact that lefties really don't care much about what the law is, or what the Constitution or BIll of Rights says. They will say anything they want because in their imaginary world anything they want at that immediate moment is what they feel it SHOULD be.


Let me help you fill in the ellipsis dots for you.

That wouldn't be premeditated murder because the lefties really don't care about that the law is, or what the constitution or Bill of Rights of rights says. That would be self defense because they will say anything they want at that immediate moment is what they feel it should be. Huge difference between the two.

How did I go at putting words into your mouth? Perhaps you would prefer to arrange this bosh yourself?

Tut

The constitution is only useful when someone mounts a challenge to action

The constitution is the structure of law that we build our society on and no where does it say we cannot evolve to better the union to meet the realities of the world we live in. Unlike you righties that refuse to change or let others change.

You actually believe that...do you? The BATF controls all of that...they are run by people appointed politically....not elected.

WACO and Ruby Ridge showed how honest and trustworthy that group is.

I could give you specific examples if things the fly in the face of that belief.....however...that crosses a line on things I can't discuss. Because nobody on a forum is worth the trouble that could get me into.

However a recent very public leak of a memo about drone strikes on American citizens abroad is an example....no proof really needed...no warrants issued....no other real check or balance....just go kill this person with a drone because a Politician feels they might be a threat. Thats been on the news a few days now....and it shows the drift of what I said.

Warrants only matter if they plan on trying you in a public court proceeding with that info....not for a lot of other things...or to invent a reason to later go back for a warrant to get the information they already had....its cloaked in secrecy...who's going to disprove the timeline they claim?

It is not about trusting them. If a id generated from a random number has no ties to the owner then I don't see a problem. I do trust me FFL. And they already know who I am.

Bullet registration is already occurring.

So all this secret conspiracy stuff justifies you being armed and ready for the government invasion? Or are you saying you can do whatever you want whenever you want, and the government should stay out of your business?

Which is it, or both?

So all this secret conspiracy stuff justifies you being armed and ready for the government invasion? Or are you saying you can do whatever you want whenever you want, and the government should stay out of your business?

Which is it, or both?

Who are you asking?

Originally Posted by smoothy
You actually believe that... do you? The BATF controls all of that... they are run by people appointed politically... not elected.

WACO and Ruby Ridge showed how honest and trustworthy that group is.

I could give you specific examples if things the fly in the face of that belief... however... that crosses a line on things I can't discuss. Because nobody on a forum is worth the trouble that could get me into.

However a recent very public leak of a memo about drone strikes on American citizens abroad is an example... no proof really needed... no warrants issued... no other real check or balance... just go kill this person with a drone because a Politician feels they might be a threat. That's been on the news a few days now... and it shows the drift of what I said.

Warrants only matter if they plan on trying you in a public court proceeding with that info... not for a lot of other things... or to invent a reason to later go back for a warrant to get the information they already had... its cloaked in secrecy... who's going to disprove the timeline they claim?

I have a thing against cults and backwoods anti government types resisting the law.

I have a thing against cults and backwoods anti government types resisting the law.

How about wacko libs going around shooting cops (http://www.soopermexican.com/2013/02/07/news-media-scrub-cop-murderers-manifesto-of-pro-obama-pro-hillary-loved-msnbc-pro-gay-and-anti-gun-comments/)?

It's not "wacko libs", it's one wacko guy.

That was a bad link so tell me how he is a liberal. Is this the nut job in Califonia?

That was a bad link so tell me how he is a liberal. Is this the nut job in Califonia?

Link verified working at this time.

A lot of rhetorical stuff there, Dad and quotes in favour of gun control. I like the line about the moral imperative, that really says it all. It is hard to tell whether it is the lunatic fringe or the voice of reason

So all this secret conspiracy stuff justifies you being armed and ready for the government invasion? Or are you saying you can do whatever you want whenever you want, and the government should stay out of your business?

Which is it, or both?Simple.. read the second amendment.. its written in the very same easy to read English the first amendment is...

You can't claim the first is all encompassing then choose the polar opposite approach to the second amendment when both were written by the same people at the very same time.

We have covered this before,

Right to keep and bear arms - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_keep_and_bear_arms#United_States)


On June 26, 2008, the Supreme Court of the United States, in a 5-4 decision, held that residents of the District of Columbia have an individual right to handguns for self-defense within the home in the case District of Columbia v. Heller while at the same time reaffirming a broad range of federal restrictions on firearms as being constitutional.

That's why your right to bear arms doesn't include bazookas and cannons.

We have covered this before,


Thats why your right to bear arms doesn't include bazookas and cannons.

But your constitution doesn't say that, it is non specific, and the "founders" didn't forsee future developments and didn't limit themselves or anyoneelse. You have to see personal interest in these provisions as well alturistic motives.

So you have a problem, you either have to get better definition of militia or a better definition of arms

The courts have interpreted it that way Clete and the ruling is binding, barring a better argument being presented in the court. Doesn't matter what opinions are or who likes them. It's a simple matter that's already settled in the highest court of the land.

The rub is where the congress draws the line, and how the law is enforced.

I Heard there are three intrepretations and you should take the whole thing and restrict arms to militias which is undoubtedly what the founders considered

I Heard there are three intrepretations and you should take the whole thing and restrict arms to militias which is undoubtedly what the founders considered

That's NOT the language in the Bill of rights... the founders didn't intend the freedom of speech only to the states and government...

There is absolutely NOTHING that says that..


Text of the 2nd Amendment
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


Pay special note of the RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE... it doesn't say the right of the government.

And the Militia was not a government entity... it was a band of private citizens, not the Army. THey had an Army back then too. To prevent a tyranical governemtn like the Britsh Government we fought so hard to get away from, from ever arising again.. And we have been inching towards such an uprising slowly ever since.


And as far as what the founders thought at the time is very well documented... in the Federalist Papers... there is no "Room for interpretation". The made it abundently clear... granting the right of the population to be armed will prevent Tyrants from arising because the people could take them down... THey didn't just fight a war... just to go back to the way things were.

And we all have seen Obama make claims that if if contress doesn't do what he tells them to do he will take it upon himself to do it tanyway... despite what the law says and what the Constitution says... like he's some kind of freaking demigod or something.

We have covered this before,

Right to keep and bear arms - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_keep_and_bear_arms#United_States)



Thats why your right to bear arms doesn't include bazookas and cannons.

I guess you forgot, one of my best friends has a functioning cannon.


It's not "wacko libs", it's one wacko guy.

Really, are you the grammar police again?


That was a bad link so tell me how he is a liberal. Is this the nut job in Califonia?

The link works fine for me.

Really, are you the grammar police again?You didn't get the distinction?

Would you people stop editing my damn posts?

Supreme Court of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCOTUS)

Its settled law for now that congress can put reasonable restrictions on what arms you can bear without infringing on the right to bear arms. We await what comes from the congress.


Would you people stop editing my damn posts?

Combining consecutive posts with VERY close time stamps is hardly editing, and changes nothing of the content, but it gives other viewers/posters an ease of use, and raises the appearance of the forum to acceptable standard. What do you have against ease of use and appearance for a PUBLIC forum that doesn't censor you for content, or context?

808 Answers / 9742 Views-- proof that others besides the usual posters follow these threads.

Combining consecutive posts with VERY close time stamps is hardly editing, and changes nothing of the content, but it gives other viewers/posters an ease of use, and raises the appearance of the forum to acceptable standard. What do you have against ease of use and appearance for a PUBLIC forum that doesn't censor you for content, or context?

808 Answers / 9742 Views-- proof that others besides the usual posters follow these threads.

What I have against it is editing my posts, ESPECIALLY if I am responding to more than one person. Who gives a damn what the time stamp is, as long as my posts are within the rules I want them left alone.

Rent a mob

https://my.barackobama.com/page/event/detail/dayofaction/gskwqb
Union brown shirts offered free bus ride ,and free meals to protest the NRA's resistance to the extreme and poorly thought out gun control laws Il Duce Cuomo ram-rodded into law in NY .

Speaking of poorly thought out laws, and no I don't mean Obamacare, check out Oregon...


Oregon Gun Ban Bill HB 3200 Includes Police Inspection of Gun Owners’ Homes; Declares “Emergency” (http://thepatriotperspective.wordpress.com/2013/02/23/oregon-gun-ban-bill-includes-police-inspection-of-gun-owners-homes/)
Posted: February 23, 2013 by ShortTimer in Democrats, Government, Guns, Second Amendment, Tyranny

...

It’s the usual extremist “everything must be banned” type total ban of all modern firearms, with criminalization, prison time, etc. It includes banning safety features like Carolyn McCarthy’s “shoulder thing that goes up” and utility features like adjustable stocks for smaller shooters. And then there’s the part about inspections of homes, without even the limits of once a year like the Washington ban proposal.

Possession, when not at the range or to and from the range or a gunsmith, is limited to (Section 4, (5)(c)(A)):


(c) Possess the assault weapon or large capacity magazine only:
(A) On property owned or immediately controlled by the registered owner;

From Section 4, they get to de facto inspect your home – for 99% of people, that’s all that qualifies under §4(5)(c)(A):


(5) A registered owner of an assault weapon or large capacity magazine is required to:
(a) Securely store the assault weapon or large capacity magazine pursuant to rules and regulations adopted by the department;
(b) Allow an inspector from the department to inspect the storage of assault weapons and large capacity magazines to ensure compliance with this subsection;

Section 5, part 4, reiterated for “registered” owners:

(4) The department may conduct inspections of registered owners of assault weapons and large capacity magazines to ensure compliance with the storage requirements of section 4 of this 2013 Act.

From the summary:


Creates crime of unlawful possession or transfer of assault weapon or large capacity magazine. Punishes by maximum penalty of 10 years’ imprisonment, $250,000 fine, or both.

Requires current owners to dispose of or register assault weapons and large capacity magazines.

Directs Department of State Police to conduct background check and maintain registry of assault weapons and large capacity magazines.

Declares emergency, effective on passage.

Section 6 – an emergency is declared:


SECTION 6. This 2013 Act being necessary for the immediate preservation of the public peace, health and safety, an emergency is declared to exist, and this 2013 Act takes effect on its passage.

And from Section 4, can’t have more than one rifle and three magazines, with the rest subject to disposal:


(4) A person may not register more than one assault weapon and three large capacity magazines under this section. Additional assault weapons and large capacity magazines must be disposed of in the manner specified in section 3 of this 2013 Act.

Disposal in the law means having to remove it from the state, turn it in to the state for destruction, have it destroyed, or sell it to a dealer who’s allowed to possess it.

But remember, Oregon Democrats like Lee Coleman have assured us that this kind of thing is just paranoid delusion from some people in “Kansas or whatever” so “go screw yourself”:

Hello again, Steve:

Yeah, gun laws can be pretty stupid, can't they? Check this one out (http://nashvillecitypaper.com/content/city-news/carr-bill-aims-prevent-feds-enforcing-us-gun-laws-tn).
Congressional hopeful and state Rep. Joe Carr wants to ensure that any new gun restrictions handed down from Washington, D.C. go unenforced in the Volunteer State.

Carr, a Lascassas Republican, is introducing a bill that would slap federal officials with a Class A misdemeanor for enforcing new federal gun laws, executive orders, rules or regulations.

“It's our attempt to push back on the federal government's ever-increasing encroachment not only on our personal liberties but on our state sovereignty, and this is what we're going to do. We've had enough, and enough is enough,” he told reporters at a press conference in Murfreesboro.

Under Carr's proposal, House Bill 42, state troopers would have the authority to arrest federal officers if they attempt to enforce federal gun laws

Excon

Hello again, Steve:

Yeah, gun laws can be pretty stupid, can't they?? Check this one out (http://nashvillecitypaper.com/content/city-news/carr-bill-aims-prevent-feds-enforcing-us-gun-laws-tn).

excon

I like it, states have rights too.

I am a gun owner (ex-military who was taught to rely on planning, not hoping, so please give me a good plan) who is willing to get rid of my guns if the anti gun group will give me a solid plan for the following scenario (and feel free to call me alarmist, paranoid- have a ball, but I read of these kinds of episodes within a 50 mile -some within one mile of my home- radius of my home every day as I read online newspapers in that radius and more). Maybe South central PA, mid-Maryland, western MD, etc are just unique areas for these kinds of invasions? :

This is the situation I plan to avoid: Being awakened at 3 AM with a gun pointed at my temple, and from that point on -doing whatever in the f*** I am told to do and that applies to my wife and whoever else happens to be unlucky enough to be in the house at that moment.

The way it happens (from what I read in news accounts): Usually at least two (often 3 or 4) armed thugs comes through windows or doors like a swat team and find the homeowner within seconds, and take them under complete control. Note: a monitored security system will alert the alarm company and they attempt to verify it is not a false alarm by contacting the homeowner. So your phone rings while the perp has you with a gun to your head- he says -tell them you mistakenly triggered it-you do. Or maybe he says don't answer- so the alarm company calls the alternate contact you have listed in your records--bottom line, police might stop by in what-20 minutes if you are very lucky? Or not at all if you have to tell them under duress that it was an error.

I have systems in place (security alarm, camera monitors) that will buy me a few precious seconds to lock and load (PA is a castle doctrine state that basically says that as long as a citizen is legally at any location, deadly force can be used to repel threats) and my plan is to repel the threat at the earliest possible moment. The problem is -what do I use to repel the threat? Or should I sit back and hope for the best.

What is the flaw in my plan and how can I reach the same level of protection without a decent firearm? Butcher knife, baseball bat, mace, pepper spray--against a sawed-off 12 gauge, a machete, 2 or 3 perps with their own baseball bats.

Assuming that there is at least a remote possibility of this happening where you reside- what is your plan if it isn't a good firearm? Or can't it ever happen to you?

Being awakened at 3 AM with a gun pointed at my temple, and from that point on -doing whatever in the f*** I am told to do and that applies to my wife and whoever else happens to be unlucky enough to be in the house at that moment.
And what good will your (loaded?) gun do you in this case? Will it be handy and hidden between mattress and box spring or under your pillow or visible and readily available (to anyone) on the nightstand? Will your small children know to leave it alone? Will your wife, in a PMS moment, not shoot you (or herself)? If there is more than one guy, will you have enough firepower to shoot them all without you or a loved one getting shot in return?

Adam Lanza's mom's guns were legal, and look at where she is and what good they did her.

I am not anti-gun, but let's be honest about this.

No. Security system will sound alarm. If I can awaken fast enough, the gun will be ready in about 5 seconds. Actually, if I use my basement bedroom I will have probably about 3 minutes before they find me while I watch them on cameras. I have considered your comment. I have other precautions in place to deal with them. What's your plan for that scenario if God forbid it ever happens to you?
You did well trying to find the flaws in my plan. I want the better plan the anti gun folks must have in mind- to protect themselves- so I can implement it and get rid of my guns-and yes-my guns are always locked-always. If I can waken fast enough- about 2 seconds to unlock.

. I want the better plan the anti gun folks must have in mind- to protect themselves

I believe their plan involves whistles .
College women need rape whistles, not guns says Colorado lawmaker | Washington Times Communities (http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/citizen-warrior/2013/feb/20/college-women-need-rape-whistles-not-guns-says-col/)

At least I will get a good review of my plan and learn some new tricks in the process. I have a whistle somewhere. I'll dig it out and put it under the pillow. Thanks Tom.

No. Security system will sound alarm.
But your original scenario was a bad guy's gun already pointed at your head. And will your security system sound at the police station? I think they can be (are?) rigged that way. Just the bad guy hearing the jangling alarm might send him on his way.

If I can awaken fast enough /// if I use my basement bedroom
There are two "if's" already. There are lots more.

I will have probably about 3 minutes
Here's a "probably."

What's your plan for that scenario if God forbid it ever happens to you?
I've lived and worked in mixed-race neighborhoods, have always had locks and deadbolts on my doors, and have lived in unassuming/ordinary-looking homes that don't cry out "Burglarize me!"

On the other hand, my husband nearly shot a neighbor lady who came to the unlit front door late in the evening to borrow two eggs for her breakfast surprise of fresh banana bread. Our older son was helping me change the sheets on our beds and discovered his dad's loaded Glock between the mattress and box spring. Some years later, our younger son was helping me fold and put away fresh laundry and found that same loaded gun in his dad's sock drawer. Thank goodness, I was nearby both times.

I've read, but don't have the stats handy, that homeowners with guns in the home are at greater risk than those without guns in the home of dying from a family/relative homicide/suicide/fatal shooting in the home.

How about instead adopting a yippy little dog from a shelter?

I believe their plan involves whistles .
College women need rape whistles, not guns says Colorado lawmaker | Washington Times Communities (http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/citizen-warrior/2013/feb/20/college-women-need-rape-whistles-not-guns-says-col/)
Can you begin to imagine all those PMS hormones flailing around on college campuses and the chicks all have guns? Her boyfriend just dumped her for another girl, and boy, is she loaded for bear!

I think I'd rather they have whistles. Whistles are easily accessible, always work, are attention getting, and are a lot like the old people's LifeLines.

That college women thing happened in my hometown in western MD. Girl one killed girl 2--with a knife.
Frostburg State University Girl Stabbed In The Head - DMVFollowers (http://www.dmvfollowers.com/frostburg-state-university-girl-stabbed-in-the-head-news/)

WG
Alarm blaring is a factor, maybe increases response time or maybe they flee.
My neighbors (contract security officers in Iraq) were home for a few weeks in January. Accidentally tripped their own alarm. They only have a cell phone and they had dropped it in the water and it wasn't working so they weren't able to get the call from the alarm company. So the alarm co. called one of their parents about 500 miles away and asked what they should do. The mom tried to call my neighbors- same problem no phone working, so mom said -send the cops. So they had two PA troopers on their porch at midnite telling them that if it happened again they would be charged x dollars.
That system works better when you aren't home I think.
Have no idea how much time all that took.

Quote from Consumer Reports regarding their tests on deadbolt locks:
Drills easily open most locks

"With all except the two locks classified as high-security, even an ordinary cordless drill could drill out the cylinders in 2 minutes or less. "

I'm quite sure that a cordless drill about 40+ feet away (even for two or more minutes) wouldn't wake me. I'm sticking with my plan.

By the way WG, I said:
"This is the situation I plan to avoid: Being awakened at 3 AM with a gun pointed at my temple, and from that point on -doing whatever in the f*** I am told to do and that applies to my wife and whoever else happens to be unlucky enough to be in the house at that moment. "

I didn't say it was my starting point, but rather the position I never want to be in. Time to react starts when very loud alarm wakens me, not with thug holding gun to my head. The key is the number of seconds between the two and I have some undisclosed features I won't talk about - designed to make the coming in- more difficult, and features which can alert me before the alarm is tripped. I will say that nothing I haven't considered has been brought up yet.

By the way WG, I said:
"This is the situation I plan to avoid: Being awakened at 3 AM with a gun pointed at my temple..."
I apologize to you for reading something that wasn't there.

WG
Alarm blaring is a factor, maybe increases response time or maybe they flee.
My neighbors (contract security officers in Iraq) were home for a few weeks in January. Accidently tripped their own alarm. They only have a cell phone and they had dropped it in the water and it wasn't working so they weren't able to get the call from the alarm company. So the alarm co. called one of their parents about 500 miles away
I would have had a better response hierarchy in place with backup phone numbers from my own household. My mil had one of those LifeLine things with her son three hours away as the first one to be contacted. She fell one day and finally realized while lying on the floor helpless how stupid that was when her other son was less than fifteen minutes away.

I spend half of my life trying to update things like that and/or think them through correctly when I first set them up, but I never get it quite right it seems.
But hopefully all that mental exercise keeps my brain from totally deteriorating-- any more than it already has.

I spend half of my life trying to update things like that and/or think them through correctly when I first set them up, but I never get it quite right it seems.
But hopefully all that mental exercise keeps my brain from totally deteriorating-- any more than it already has.
I think you are doing just fine -- and making us think too. We can always prepare for what we think will be the worst-case scenario and then bingo! Bango! A scenario we never would have thought of bites us in the butt.

Weren't you the Spam guy at one time?

Are you talking about a user name? No, never been anybody else. Other than eating fried spam on toast with mayo, I have no other spam connections.
I stumbled on this site in 2007 when I was looking for a recipe for a German dessert that some call German Smear Cake, and my friend that first introduced me to the dessert called smearcase. I think that I probably put smearcase on the wrong line when signing up-- and here I am 6 years later. Lol

And by the way- I found a great smearcase recipe here that day too!

No WG smearcase is not magprob. They are 2 different members.

No WG smearcase is not magprob. They are 2 different members.
Ah! Magprob!! How could I forget?? The spinning Spam can.

Fried Spam on toast with mayo -- makes me hungry just thinking about it!

I believe their plan involves whistles .
College women need rape whistles, not guns says Colorado lawmaker | Washington Times Communities (http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/citizen-warrior/2013/feb/20/college-women-need-rape-whistles-not-guns-says-col/)

Or vomit on cue.

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/war-women-662145-131.html#post3400434

FYI, 44 firearm companies have stopped selling to law enforcement in states such as New York...

Gaining Momentum: Now 44 Gun Companies Have Stopped Selling to Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States | TheBlaze.com (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/02/23/gaining-momentum-now-42-gun-companies-have-stopped-selling-to-law-enforcement-in-anti-2nd-amendment-states/)

Excellent points you make SC, awareness and preparations. I like that better than the false security of a weapon against the perceived fear of the government tyranny, or being a targeted victim of evil predators.

I always make the case between rural, and the big city, because they are different worlds, and the same rules don't really apply the same way, but young people armed among many young people makes little sense especially in the case of sexual predators who dope their victims up rather than hide in the shadows waiting to catch an unaware victim.

Personally criminals are easier to find and intercept when you can eliminate all the law abiding healthy citizens from the close scrutiny list, and leave NOT so law abiding unhealthy people front and center, so a list of all of us,(census), and a narrower list of gun owners (registered), against a list of sales (background checks) makes a lot of sense to me.

And yeah I want to be the first to know your crazy kid got YOUR stash of guns and is going to school with them.

FYI, 44 firearm companies have stopped selling to law enforcement in states such as New York... That's the free market at work. I'm sure other companies will fill the void. Companies from outside the US no doubt.

That's the free market at work. I'm sure other companies will fill the void. Companies from outside the US no doubt.

Maybe not. The ban extends to stricter enforcement of imports and outright banning them.

NY police have already informed Il Duce that his law restricts them from being supplied with the ammo they need to do their job. Seems he forgot that small detail. Maybe he thinks NY or Newburg cops can become Bobbies with batons .

The Bobbies have whistles too- don't forget, not just the batons.

Stop I say or I shall have to issue another stern warning...


Dudly Do-Rights reputation is ruined.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAXwGvwg_7k&feature=player_detailpage

There is nothing else for it you cannot have citizens with ammunition and the cops with none, it is time to take the guns away, then you will have no need of ammunition, it's logical, I cannot see why you haven't seen this before, dumb, I guess

there is nothing else for it you cannot have citizens with ammunition and the cops with none, it is time to take the guns away, then you will have no need of ammunition, it's logical, I cannot see why you haven't seen this before, dumb, I guess

That's because the idea of disarming the population IS dumb at its core.

Unless of course you are part of the Tyrannical Government that likes the idea of not having an opposition.

Once again sarcasm text but I was referring to the cops, with no guns in the hands of the cops the population has nothing to fear and no need of guns. You talk of tyrannical government but start by stopping the tyrannical population and you will solve your problems.

Look, think it through, who commits most of the gun crime, so deal with that problem, start a war on illegal gang bangers, then escalate your war to gang bangers in general, deal with the illegal possession problem, those millions of illegal weapons on the black market, etc. deal with you drug problem, zero tolerance, you have even demonstrated this works yourselves. Not three strikes but one strike, if you are not legal you are gone, no free accommodation in jail, if you are legal you are in (jail), and if you are illegal and in jail you are gone, right now, no time for apprenticeship. You have many planes on the ground doing nothing put them to work. Clear the neighbourhoods of illegals, street by street if need be, you will see the problem evaporate very quickly. The queue at the border going south will be too big to handle.You need politicians with balls not the wimps you have and the problem will be solved in a term

Hello again, smoothy:


Unless of course you are part of the Tyrannical Government that likes the idea of not having an opposition.Let's put this to bed. Even IF you gather into little enclaves of rebellion, one US ARMY Apache helicopter with its 50 caliber machine gun will WIPE you out.. Your puny assault rifles won't defend you.. You will NEVER defeat the US MARINES. The fact that you wingers THINK you can is emblematic of the insanity going around in YOUR circles...

Additionally, if you start your war against MY country, I will obey my oath to defend the USA against ALL enemies foreign and domestic.. See you on the battlefield.

Excon

Maybe you will use some of the arsenal that DHS is accumulating .

Hello tom:

The Army has plenty of ammo. We'll make quick work of your rebellion.

excon

Yeah but what makes you think they will allow you to have weapons ?
VA Tells Vets They Will Lose Gun Rights Unless They Prove Competency - Investors.com (http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/022513-645683-administration-strips-vets-of-gun-rights.htm)
Make sure you understand all your benefits ;not understanding them can disqualify you from owning fire-arms .

Hello again, tom:


yeah but what makes you think they will allow you to have weapons ? When I said that "we'll make quick work", it was a euphemistic we. I'm a felon.. I already can't own a firearm.. The fighting will be done by younger men.

I was speaking about the US military, whose shoulders quelling your rebellion would fall on. They have PLENTY of guns, and they're BIGGER than yours.

Excon

We're having a rebellion? What time?

We're having a rebellion? What time?Just people talking on the internet. Nothing to worry about.

Hello again, Steve:


We're having a rebellion? What time?Your man, Ted Nugent, said (http://patdollard.com/2013/01/ted-nugent-obama-attempting-to-re-implement-tyranny-of-king-george/) that "If you want another Concord Bridge, I've got some buddies." If you need reminding, the Concord Bridge, was the FIRST battle of the American War of Independence.

To ME, that sounds like a threat of war. To YOU, it sounds like an invite to a birthday party. I'm simply saying, BRING it on.

Excon

Hello again, smoothy:

Let's put this to bed. Even IF you gather into little enclaves of rebellion, one US ARMY Apache helicopter with its 50 caliber machine gun will WIPE you out.. Your puny assault rifles won't defend you.. You will NEVER defeat the US MARINES. The fact that you wingers THINK you can is emblematic of the insanity going around in YOUR circles...

Additionally, if you start your war against MY country, I will obey my oath to defend the USA against ALL enemies foreign and domestic.. See you on the battlefield.

excon

Really... but only if George Bush isn't the guy in charge... or anyone of his political party, Right?

You are aware that YOU have become the Big Brother that you talked and complained about so much in your youth.

You guys lost the last civil war and you had your guns, and now you think the new civil war of ideas and policy will be won with guns? Keep your guns. Why not? The new bullets are the ballots, and its crazy as hell to think it's a way for you to win over your country with a gun... no matter how many bullets you can fire in a minute.

You guys lost the last civil war and you had your guns, and now you think the new civil war of ideas and policy will be won with guns? Keep your guns. Why not? The new bullets are the ballots, and its crazy as hell to think its a way for you to win over your country with a gun..........................no matter how many bullets you can fire in a minute.

Who do you mean YOU GUYS...

The people who suceded were Democrats... more left wing revisionist history...

The facts really are...

20 Of The Most Embarrassing Moments In The History Of The Democrat Party - John Hawkins - [page] (http://townhall.com/columnists/johnhawkins/2013/02/23/20-of-the-most-embarrassing-moments-in-the-history-of-the-democrat-party-n1518613/page/full/)

For example, one will virtually never hear that the Palmer Raids, Prohibition, or American eugenics were thoroughly progressive phenomena. These are sins America itself must atone for. Meanwhile, real or alleged “conservative” misdeeds — say McCarthyism — are always the exclusive fault of conservatives and a sign of the policies they would repeat if given power. The only culpable mistake that liberals make is failing to fight “hard enough” for their principles. Liberals are never responsible for historic misdeeds because they feel no compulsion to defend the inherent goodness of America. Conservatives, meanwhile, not only take the blame for events not of their own making that they often worked the most assiduously against, but find themselves defending liberal misdeeds in order to defend America herself. -- Jonah Goldberg


1) The Trail of Tears (1838): The first Democrat President, Andrew Jackson and his successor Martin Van Buren, herded Indians into camps, tormented them, burned and pillaged their homes and forced them to relocate with minimal supplies. Thousands died along the way.

2) Democrats Cause The Civil War (1860): The pro-slavery faction of the Democrat Party responded to Abraham Lincoln's election by seceding, which led to the Civil War.

3) Formation of the KKK (1865): Along with 5 other Confederate veterans, Democrat Nathan Bedford Forrest created the KKK.

4) 300 Black Americans Murdered (1868):"Democrats in Opelousas, Louisiana killed nearly 300 blacks who tried to foil an assault on a Republican newspaper editor."

5) The American Protective League and The Palmer Raids (1919-1921): Under the leadership of Woodrow Wilson, criticizing the government became a crime and a fascist organization, the American Protective League was formed to spy on and even arrest fellow Americans for being insufficiently loyal to the government. More than 100,000 Americans were arrested, with less than 1% of them ever being found guilty of any kind of crime.

6) Democrats Successfully Stop Republicans From Making Lynching A Federal Crime (1922): "The U.S. House adopted Rep. Leonidas Dyer’s (R., Mo.) bill making lynching a federal crime. Filibustering Senate Democrats killed the measure."

7) The Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment (1932-1972): Contrary to what you may have heard, Democrats in Alabama did not give black Americans syphilis. However, the experimenters did know that subjects of the experiment unknowingly had syphilis and even after it was proven that penicillin could be used to effectively treat the disease in 1947, the experiments continued. As a result, a number of the subjects needlessly infected their loved ones and died, when they could have been cured.

8) Japanese Internment Camps (1942): Democrat Franklin D. Roosevelt issued an executive order that led to more than 100,000 Japanese Americans being put into "bleak, remote camps surrounded by barbed wire and armed guards."

9) Alger Hiss Convicted Of Perjury (1950): Hiss, who helped advise FDR at Yalta and was strongly defended by the Left, turned out to be a Soviet spy. He was convicted of perjury in 1950 (Sadly, the statute of limitations on espionage had run out), but was defended by liberals for decades until the Verona papers proved so conclusively that he was guilty that even most his fellow liberals couldn't continue to deny it.

10) The West Virginia Democrat primary is rigged by John F. Kennedy (1960): From an interview with the late, great Robert Novak.

John Hawkins: You also said that without question, John F. Kennedy rigged the West Virginia Democratic primary in (1960), but that the Wall Street Journal killed the story. Do you think that sort of thing is still occurring with great regularity and do you wish the Journal had reported the story when it happened?

Robert Novak: In my opinion, they should have. They sent two reporters down to West Virginia for six weeks and they came back with a carefully documented story on voter fraud in West Virginia, buying votes, and how he beat Humphrey in the primary and therefore got the nomination. But, Ed Kilgore, the President of Dow Jones and publisher of the Wall Street Journal, a very conservative man, said it wasn’t the business of the Wall Street Journal to decide the nominee of the Democratic Party and he killed the story. That story didn’t come out for many, many years — 30-40 years. It was kept secret all that time.

11) The Bay of Pigs (1961): After training a Cuban militia to overthrow Castro, Kennedy got cold feet and didn't give the men all the air support they were promised. As a result, they were easily defeated by Castro's men and today, Cuba is still ruled by a hostile, anti-American dictatorship.

12) Fire Hoses And Attack Dogs Used On Children (1963): Birmingham, Alabama's notorious Commissioner of Public Safety, Democrat Bull Connor, used attack dogs and fire hoses on children and teenagers marching for civil rights. Ultimately, thousands of them would also be arrested.

13) Stand In The Schoolhouse Door (1963): Democrat George Wallace gave his notorious speech against integrating schools at the University of Alabama in which he said, "segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever."

14) Escalation In Vietnam (1964): Lyndon Johnson dramatically escalated our troops’ presence in Vietnam while he simultaneously put political restrictions in place that made the war unwinnable. As a result, 58,000 Americans died in a war that ultimately achieved none of its aims.

15) Chappaquid (1969): The Democrats’ beloved "Liberal Lion" of the Senate, Ted Kennedy ran off the road into a tidal pool with passenger Mary Jo Kopechne in the car. Kennedy swam free and then spent 9 hours plotting how he would reveal the news to the press while she slowly suffocated to death.

16) Democrats Deliver South Vietnam To The North (1975): "In 1975, when there were no Americans left in Vietnam, the left wing of the Democratic Party killed the government of South Vietnam, cut off all of its funding, cut off all of its ammunition, and sent a signal to the world that the United States had abandoned its allies." -- Newt Gingrich

17) The Iranian Hostage Crisis (1979-1981): 52 Americans were held hostage by the government of Iran for 444 days. After Jimmy Carter’s disastrous, failed rescue attempt, the hostages were finally released after Ronald Reagan's inaugural address.

18) Bill Clinton turns down Osama Bin Laden (1996): In Bill Clinton's own words, "'Mr. bin Laden used to live in Sudan. He was expelled from Saudi Arabia in 1991, then he went to Sudan. And we’d been hearing that the Sudanese wanted America to start meeting with them again. They released him. At the time, 1996, he had committed no crime against America so I did not bring him here because we had no basis on which to hold him, though we knew he wanted to commit crimes against America.' — Bill Clinton explains to a Long Island, N.Y., business group why he turned down Sudan’s offer to extradite Osama Bin Laden to America in 1996." Had Bill Clinton accepted Sudan's offer, 9/11 would have likely never happened.

19) Bill Clinton was impeached (1998): Clinton became only the 2nd President in American history to be impeached after he lied under oath about his affair with Monica Lewinsky.

20) America loses its AAA credit rating (2011): The United States was first given its AAA credit in 1917, but it couldn’t survive Barack Obama's record breaking spending. In 2011, America lost its AAA credit rating.

You guys lost the last civil war and you had your guns, and now you think the new civil war of ideas and policy will be won with guns? Keep your guns. Why not? The new bullets are the ballots, and its crazy as hell to think its a way for you to win over your country with a gun..........................no matter how many bullets you can fire in a minute.

Someone said gun control is not about guns; it’s about control. That my friend is what terrifies me about liberal/progressive politics and this administration is on steroids over controlling our lives. I like our rights, why don't you?

Someone said gun control is not about guns; it’s about control. That my friend is what terrifies me about liberal/progressive politics and this administration is on steroids over controlling our lives. I like our rights, why don't you?
Who initiated the searches at the airports? And they have inconvenienced millions to accomplish what?

What controls has this administration put into place that inconvenience millions?

Who initiated the searches at the airports? And they have inconvenienced millions to accomplish what?

What controls has this administration put into place that inconvenience millions?

Are those really serious questions? Or are you really that blind?

Ex: " The Army has plenty of ammo. We'll make quick work of your rebellion. "

So, in a country of 300,000,000+, as compared to Iraq (7 or so years) and Afghan. (12 years so far) at about one tenth the population of U.S. each-- it's a cakewalk all of a sudden. Would that be due to the U.S. military quickly swelling up by an influx of enlistees in a country where at present well less than 1% serve in the military? Would it be old has been sailors like you and me Ex- who would be doing all that a** kicking? Or would it be because those blackhawks would be given carte blanche to shoot and ask questions later instead of having some limitations in those present and recently past wars? I am just trying to understand why it becomes so easy here as opposed to "over there".

Someone said gun control is not about guns; it's about control. That my friend is what terrifies me about liberal/progressive politics and this administration is on steroids over controlling our lives. I like our rights, why don't you?

Because I have seen a lot of abuse and really bad behavior because someone liked their rights but had no respect for the rights of others. So I can understand your fear of progressive policies, and ideas, because they are as foreign to you as the conservatives are to me.

Gun safety is what we should both be talking about, not just our rights.

Who initiated the searches at the airports? And they have inconvenienced millions to accomplish what?

What controls has this administration put into place that inconvenience millions?

I said nothing about 'inconvenience.'

Because I have seen a lot of abuse and really bad behavior because someone liked their rights but had no respect for the rights of others. So I can understand your fear of progressive policies, and ideas, because they are as foreign to you as the conservatives are to me.

Gun safety is what we should both be talking about, not just our rights.

Oh, so it's not gun 'control,' it's gun 'safety?' Is police inspection of your weapons in your home without a warrant (http://thepatriotperspective.wordpress.com/2013/02/23/oregon-gun-ban-bill-includes-police-inspection-of-gun-owners-homes/)about 'control' or 'safety?'

Hello smear:


I am just trying to understand why it becomes so easy here as opposed to "over there".Couple things...

If we're attacked "over here", it'll be viewed as just another terrorist attack like Tim McVey perpetrated on us. I didn't see a right wing call to arms when we put him to death.

Plus, I don't know why you'd think that the present group of right wing extremist's are ANY different than McVey, unless you're one of 'em.

Excon

Who initiated the searches at the airports? And they have inconvenienced millions to accomplish what?
Well to start ;we haven't had another 9-11 type terrorist attack succeed .

well to start ;we haven't had another 9-11 type terrorist attack succeed .
That's not because of airport searches.

Of course it is. Terrorist know that the chances of such an attack succeeding are virtually nil.

That's not because of airport searches.

That's like saying no one is deterred by our concealed carry law.

That's like saying no one is deterred by our concealed carry law.
WHO is allowed concealed carry? No just anybody, I'm guessing.

(It's snowing and sleeting in Chicagoland. Thanks for sending it our way.)

WHO is allowed concealed carry? No just anybody, I'm guessing.

(It's snowing and sleeting in Chicagoland. Thanks for sending it our way.)

The point is guessing who may be packing.

The point is guessing who may be packing.
I realize that. What are the requirements to allow it?

Do the bad guys really think about this? I would guess most don't consider consequences, but go for instant gratification.

TxDPS - Concealed Handgun Licensing (http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/rsd/chl/index.htm)

I don't know what bad guys think, but I'm guessing they don't want to get shot.

TxDPS - Concealed Handgun Licensing (http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/rsd/chl/index.htm)

I don't know what bad guys think, but I'm guessing they don't want to get shot.
Thanks for the link. No, the bad guys don't think that far ahead. Don't give them the brain they don't have.

WHO is allowed concealed carry? No just anybody, I'm guessing.

(It's snowing and sleeting in Chicagoland. Thanks for sending it our way.)

Actually more than you think... most of the Country isn't as draconian as Illinois... particularly Chicago.

THere are a lot of "SHALL ISSUE" states... Virginia being one I know well. If you apply for a Conciel carry permit... they leterally HAVE to give it to you unless they can produce some proof why you should not legally.

Literally if you pass a check to buy a handgun... you meet the requirements for a permit.

I would have one if I didn't cross three state lines frequently.

Also... I can open carry without a permit in VA.

YOu might be thinking about "MAY ISSUE" states that make it difficult for even people who have to carry lare sums of money to the bank for a business to get one. Of course these are states that have the highest crime rates because criminals can safely assume the odds are their victim is unarmed.

Also....I can open carry without a permit in VA.

Because of your good looks -- or something else?

Because of your good looks -- or something else?

Because I have no criminal history... and no history of mental issues.

That means they would legally HAVE to give me one if I applied.

Because I have no criminal history...and no history of mental issues.

That means they would legally HAVE to give me one if I applied.

Who is "they"? How do you get an app? File/send it where?

Who is "they"? How do you get an app? File/send it where?

Applications are processed by the Sherrifs Dept of the County you reside in. At least in VA.

Yes you do have to fill out and sumbit the required application forms... they will vary State by state as they are not under Federal Jurisdiction.

Some states require gun safety course completion, some do (or used to) accept proof of military experience in lieu of the course, and some (and maybe it varies by county) don't require any training like my county in PA.

MD's cumbersome (may issue) policy was overturned by a Federal court quite a while ago but they haven't changed anything to my knowledge, except that their legislature is presently still in session for another month+ and trying their best to make buying/owning/carrying weapons as much more difficult as possible.


From ABC news ref. MD Gov. O'Malley plans:
"It would also limit the size of magazines and, among the tougher proposals, would include a requirement for most prospective gun buyers to provide fingerprints to state police, undergo a background check and complete a mandatory gun-safety course in order to obtain an owner's permit. "

And possibly getting set to lose some good jobs:
Beretta USA Threatening To Leave Maryland Over Gun Control Legislation (http://www.inquisitr.com/543475/beretta-usa-threatening-to-leave-maryland-over-gun-control-legislation/)

Some states require gun safety course completion, some do (or used to) accept proof of military experience in lieu of the course, and some (and maybe it varies by county) don't require any training like my county in PA.

MD's cumbersome (may issue) policy was overturned by a Federal court quite a while ago but they haven't changed anything to my knowledge, except that their legislature is presently still in session for another month+ and trying their best to make buying/owning/carrying weapons as much more difficult as possible.


from ABC news ref. MD Gov. O'Malley plans:
"It would also limit the size of magazines and, among the tougher proposals, would include a requirement for most prospective gun buyers to provide fingerprints to state police, undergo a background check and complete a mandatory gun-safety course in order to obtain an owner's permit. "

And possibly getting set to lose some good jobs:
Beretta USA Threatening To Leave Maryland Over Gun Control Legislation (http://www.inquisitr.com/543475/beretta-usa-threatening-to-leave-maryland-over-gun-control-legislation/)

And hopefully they move to gun and Second Amendment rights friendly Virginia. Which also has lower taxes.

They're all welcome in Texas.

Applications are processed by the Sherrifs Dept of the County you reside in. At least in VA.

Yes you do have to fill out and sumbit the required application forms....they will vary State by state as they are not under Federal Jurisdiction.
Thanks, smoothy and SC. Illinois is wrestling with concealed carry right now and arguing about where it should be forbidden (public transportation, schools, hospitals, libraries, etc.).

Thanks, smoothy and SC. Illinois is wrestling with concealed carry right now and arguing about where it should be forbidden (public transportation, schools, hospitals, libraries, etc.).

There are places here in VA you can't carry... like a Court... etc... but unless its specifically prohibited.. then its considered allowed.

There are places here in VA you can't carry...like a Court...etc....but unless its specifically prohibited..then its considered allowed.
So how does that work in heavily-populated areas like on the public bus or in hospitals or at schools and airports? Many here think it is a tragedy waiting to happen -- but then if all those places end up off limits, where and when is one allowed to carry? While walking the dog?

I guess you're on your own, or have to rely on police/security. I'm less concerned about being allowed to carry in a courthouse as I am my wife being able to carry to the mall or Walmart where people love to prey on women who are alone. I believe these are the places generally forbidden in Texas:

School buildings
School grounds where a school sponsored activity is on-going
School bus, or other school passenger transportation vehicle.
Polling place on election day (including early voting)
Court or court office.
Race track (licensed for betting)
Airport secured area (past metal-detectors in terminal building)
Within 1,000 feet of a place of execution on the day of an execution, but only if given notice
51% locations - businesses that derive 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption.
High school, collegiate, interscholastic, or professional sporting events.
Correctional facility
Amusement parks

Businesses can also forbid carry by posting a 30.06 sign (http://2swordsprotection.com/images/30.06.jpg) (interesting choice of numbers), but I don't see that it's forbidden to carry on a public transportation here. I could be wrong...

So how does that work in heavily-populated areas like on the public bus or in hospitals or at schools and airports? Many here think it is a tragedy waiting to happen -- but then if all those places end up off limits, where and when is one allowed to carry? while walking the dog?

Heavily Populated only means there is a more of a need to carry.

Where Unlawful to Carry

§18.2-308 (J.3.): No person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia; may consume an alcoholic beverage while on the premises. A person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of such a restaurant or club and consumes alcoholic beverages is guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor. However, nothing in this subsection shall apply to a federal, state, or local law-enforcement officer.

§18.2-308 (O.): Private property when prohibited by the owner of the property, or where posted as prohibited.

§18.2-283: To a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place, without good and sufficient reason.

§18.2-283.1: Courthouse.

§18.2-308.1: School property. Exemptions to this statute include a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school.
§18.2-287.01: Carrying weapon in air carrier airport terminal.



Virginia State Police - Firearms/Concealed Weapons (http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms.shtm)

Listing of states with which Virginia has Reciprocity Agreements* (A formal written agreement exists between the two jurisdictions):

Alaska
Florida
Kentucky
Mississippi
New Mexico
North Carolina
Ohio Pennsylvania
South Carolina
South Dakota
Tennessee
Texas
West Virginia

* Virginia non-resident permit holders – Virginia non-resident permit holders should contact each reciprocal state to determine if their permit will be recognized prior to carrying in that jurisdiction.

Florida law does not grant reciprocity to holders of Virginia non-resident permits.

Listing of states with which Virginia has mutual recognition (Jurisdictions have informally agreed to honor permits issued by the other):

Arizona
Arkansas
Indiana
Louisiana
Michigan
Missouri
Montana
Nebraska
North Dakota
Oklahoma
Utah
Wyoming



Actually the following link details the process for making application for a Concealed carry permit in VA.

Virginia State Police - Resident Concealed Handgun Permits (http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_ResidentConcealed.shtm)

And here is something the lefties REALLY get their panties in a knot over... since so few of them are capable of grasping the difference between an assault weapon and a regular gun.

Virginia State Police - Machine Gun Registration (http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_MachineGun.shtm)

I've been tempted... but those things are so damned expensive to buy... I've never gotten beyond the drooling stage.

Cheap illegal handguns are what are used in Chicago 'hoods by gang members. So how do we get rid of that problem? (big discussion going on right now in Chicago) It seems to be a "take back my neighborhood" thing street by street.

Cheap illegal handguns are what are used in Chicago 'hoods by gang members. So how do we get rid of that problem? (big discussion going on right now in Chicago) It seems to be a "take back my neighborhood" thing street by street.

Maybe if the people caught using them in a crime actually did time in jail... (most don't or get a slap on the wrist) you will have fewer criminals on the loose.

I read the stats someplace of why NYC has such a low crime rate compared to Chicago that has such a high one. The parts I remember is 4 times as many people caught using an illegal gun in a crime... are going to go to jail... AND do considerably more time there per offense... than a criminal in Chicago will do.

Cheap illegal handguns are what are used in Chicago 'hoods by gang members. So how do we get rid of that problem? (big discussion going on right now in Chicago) It seems to be a "take back my neighborhood" thing street by street.

First it would behelpful if the media wouldn't cover for FLOTUS making false claims about "automatic weapons." The truth is helpful.

http://m.washingtonexaminer.com/article/2522593#.US1O1BNZ65Q

I guess you're on your own, or have to rely on police/security. I'm less concerned about being allowed to carry in a courthouse as I am my wife being able to carry to the mall or Walmart where people love to prey on women who are alone. I believe these are the places generally forbidden in Texas:

School buildings
School grounds where a school sponsored activity is on-going
School bus, or other school passenger transportation vehicle.
Polling place on election day (including early voting)
Court or court office.
Race track (licensed for betting)
Airport secured area (past metal-detectors in terminal building)
Within 1,000 feet of a place of execution on the day of an execution, but only if given notice
51% locations - businesses that derive 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption.
High school, collegiate, interscholastic, or professional sporting events.
Correctional facility
Amusement parks

Businesses can also forbid carry by posting a 30.06 sign (http://2swordsprotection.com/images/30.06.jpg) (interesting choice of numbers), but I don't see that it's forbidden to carry on a public transportation here. I could be wrong...

So let me get this straight you cannot have a gun in a number of places that are high risk but you can carry a gun walking down the street but I thought your constitution says the right to bear arms shall not be restricted, so, If it is good enough to restrict in one place it should be good enough to restrict in all places in the interests of public safety. Go figure, the constitution is a strawman argument

so let me get this straight you cannot have a gun in a number of places that are high risk but you can carry a gun walking down the street but I thought your constitution says the right to bear arms shall not be restricted, so, If it is good enough to restrict in one place it should be good enough to restrict in all places in the interests of public safety. Go figure, the constitution is a strawman argument
Same argument can be made to make liberals shut up... free speech isn't without limits too.

Ok so now we can have limited free speech and limited guns, now we are getting somewhere, so I expect the gun carry thing only applies to citizens, so there is the potential to get rid of 11 million guns. How many more of these constitutional rights are limited, with the military budget cut I expect they will be billeting troops in the homes next and asking the troops to provide their own rifles

The military cuts are of no consequences if they have smart executive administrators (Hagel isn't the man for the job;and Leon Panetta deliberately decided to ignore the reality that sequester was coming. ) . The military and all the government depts could easily absorb 10% cuts just by sharpening their #2 Ticonderoga pencils and making some real budgetting decisions. They could immediately make up for the cuts by closing bases in German beer halls .

Ok so now we can have limited free speech and limited guns, now we are getting somewhere, so I expect the gun carry thing only applies to citizens, so there is the potential to get rid of 11 million guns. How many more of these constitutional rights are limited, with the military budget cut I expect they will be billeting troops in the homes next and asking the troops to provide their own rifles

Elected officials don't get to Interpret what is and isn't in the constitution and if it applies... thank god.

IF you believe Obama... He is a god and only HE gets to decide what is and isn't a right for all the petty little mortals.

Lefties only believe in the rights THEY want at the moment... wasn't only a couple decades ago the same lefties were whining about "The Man" and "Big Brother" getting in their face and "holding them down"... and right now they are at LEAST ten times worse than the people they were complaining about in their youth. I was old enough to remember it at the time... even though I wasn't an adult yet then.

Citizens are legaly ENTITLED to the RIGHT to own guns... its not up for the passing whimsy of some brown pantywaste that managed to steal an election by lying to enough people. Its Established Constitutionally... and can only be taken away through the legally prescribed was... which is the ONLY way the constitution can be changed.

And this Sequester is the biggest propaganda lie the Democrat party has ever pulled off yet.

THe total amount of the Sequester is 20% of this years Budget Deficit... not the National debt... even AFTER the sequester the Obama Administration will still have spent even more money than they spent last year alone.

Therefore if they had money last year... they have the money this year... it ammounts to less than 2% of the budget. BUt if you listen to the blowhards on the left, you would think they are shutting the government down by refusing to allow ANY money to be spent.

And there are morons out there that actually believe the lies. WHen sufficient proof to the contrary is out there.

Funny thing... want to bet every single welfare bum gets their check on time?

Hello again, smoothy:


its not up for the passing whimsy of some brown pantywaste that managed to steal an election Careful, smoothy.. Your RACISM is showing...

Excon

Hello again, smoothy:

Careful, smoothy.. Your RACISM is showing...

excon

I have referred to Bill Clinton as a WHITE pantywaste in the past...

Unless someone is recognising Pantywaste as a sentient life form these days...

Owebama isn't entitled to any more respect than George Bush got... or Fidel Castro or Hugo Chavez is entitled to either.

He gets the respect he deserves from his Marxist leanings... which is probibly WORSE than Karl Marx ever was when he was alive.

Obama had a meeting with the governors, and naturally kicked the media out before taking questions. Obama's answer to everything was 'no.' Nikki Haley said her kids could fine $83 billion in cuts, "it's not rocket science."

its not up for the passing whimsy of some brown pantywaste that managed to steal an election

TWO elections. With the alternative being you guys, it wasn't stealing as much as self defense for reasonable people. Yeah mostly brown, some whites, and females. All that was left is loonies and center right greedy capitalists.

Naw it wasn't stealing, it was a no brainer.

TWO elections. With the alternative being you guys, it wasn't stealing as much as self defense for reasonable people. Yeah mostly brown, some whites, and females. All that was left is loonies and center right greedy capitalists.

Naw it wasn't stealing, it was a no brainer.

THen explain how so many precincts had more votes cast then they had eligible voters?

Explain of the precincts in the no ID required areas that had ZERO votes cast for a republican... Something that is a statistical impossibility.

Explain all the documents proof of votor fraud by Obama people... not to mention one in VA, PAT Moran who was actually on video explaining how they do it?

Cuban Elections were more honest than the last two we had.

That's what you guys holler about because you can't believe you lost. That's denial dude.

Simple fact is more people came out for our guy than yours. Get over it. Stop talking crazy as a loony bird and scaring folks. Hell you scared your own side pretty bad and they didn't vote.

What I said was reality... its fact... its proven, its documented.

What is denial is Obama and you guys thinking it's the evil rich sucking up all the money so there is no money left for the poor to make. Only loons believe the Economy is a zero sum affair.

What is crazy is the Democrats acting like the world is ending over what ammounts to 2% ofg the annual spending for the year... which is 20% of the DEFICIT SPENDING for this year...

SO the head Lunatic Lord Obama orders thousands of Illegal criminals loose on the public for exactly what legitimate reason? He argues there is no money to send a Airgraft Carrier to the Gulf... yet I bet every welfare bum in the country gets their check on time.

How did they ever pay for this stuff as late as 2011 which is the level of spending AFTER all the sequester cuts are applied.

Look at the illustration (in the link here) of the number of pallets (in 100 dollar bills) that it takes to represent a trillion dollars. Imagine about 16 more piled on top of the one shown to get to the level of the current deficit. The cuts (85 billion) will take away less than 10% of the first stack.
In ten years, the stack would be 49 layers deep (if there were no cuts) but it will be only 48 layers thick because of all the "drastic" cuts.

Requiring 50% of the cuts from Defense is the really stupid part, not that there aren't plenty of cuts that need to be made there, but because the pols will do more things like the game playing they have already done in cancelling deployment of the USS Harry Truman to the Gulf which endangers our valuable troops (upwards of ten percent of our entire military forces) instead of going after the non-essentials first. These kinds of actions will get their own chapter in the "Decline and fall of the American Empire" book.

What does one TRILLION dollars look like? (http://www.pagetutor.com/trillion/index.html)

Requiring 50% of the cuts from Defense is the really stupid part, not that there aren't plenty of cuts that need to be made there, but because the pols will do more things like the game playing they have already done in cancelling deployment of the USS Harry Truman to the Gulf which endangers our valuable troops (upwards of ten percent of our entire military forces) instead of going after the non-essentials first. These kinds of actions will get their own chapter in the "Decline and fall of the American Empire" book.
That's the point . Senator Tom Coburn has identified enough waste in the Pentagon budget to slash it by $500 billion in 10 years. The President is intentionally choosing the cuts which will have the highest negative impact .
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/gop-senator-outlines-68-billion-defense-cuts

That's the point . Senator Tom Coburn has identified enough waste in the Pentagon budget to slash it by $500 billion in 10 years. The President is intentionally choosing the cuts which will have the highest negative impact .

Exactly... if he cut the Welfare program... no productive member of the country would have to suffer.

These are spiteful cuts by a petty, petulant.. and spiteful man...

Health care delivery is the biggest driver of the debt, and you so called free market capitalist should be outraged that the health industry is NOT a free market.

Bitter Pill: Why Medical Bills Are Killing Us | TIME.com (http://healthland.time.com/2013/02/20/bitter-pill-why-medical-bills-are-killing-us/)


Yet those who work in the health care industry and those who argue over health care policy seem inured to the shock. When we debate health care policy, we seem to jump right to the issue of who should pay the bills, blowing past what should be the first question: Why exactly are the bills so high?

What are the reasons, good or bad, that cancer means a half-million- or million-dollar tab? Why should a trip to the emergency room for chest pains that turn out to be indigestion bring a bill that can exceed the cost of a semester of college? What makes a single dose of even the most wonderful wonder drug cost thousands of dollars? Why does simple lab work done during a few days in a hospital cost more than a car? And what is so different about the medical ecosystem that causes technology advances to drive bills up instead of down?


Read more: Bitter Pill: Why Medical Bills Are Killing Us | TIME.com (http://healthland.time.com/2013/02/20/bitter-pill-why-medical-bills-are-killing-us/#ixzz2M7wQRVYe)

If you stop getting your facts from the right wing blogosphere you would have a more reasonable position about debt, deficits, and spending, and what to do about a non employment recovery from a recession that saw the robbery of trillions.

And you guys are still holding the door open for them to make a getaway.

Cripes... what total BS... just because the majority of liberals are too cheap to go out and buy their own insurance... they expect the rest of us to pay for it for them.

Socializend medicine is like everything else that is part of socialism... it all sucks... unless you are trhe couch potato that gets something for nothing... THOSE are the only ones that think its great.

Health care delivery is the biggest driver of the debt, and you so called free market capitalist should be outraged that the health industry is NOT a free market.

Bitter Pill: Why Medical Bills Are Killing Us | TIME.com (http://healthland.time.com/2013/02/20/bitter-pill-why-medical-bills-are-killing-us/)



If you stop getting your facts from the right wing blogosphere you would have a more reasonable position about debt, deficits, and spending, and what to do about a non employment recovery from a recession that saw the robbery of trillions.

And you guys are still holding the door open for them to make a getaway.

You mean the already socialized parts like Medicare /Medicaid . Yes I'd like those reformed ;but the Dems think they are the 3rd rail.

Medicare and Medicaid can negotiate costs, even drug costs that you cannot, and bend the cost curb to make it affordable. But of course you are stuck on supply side capitalist solutions to rising costs that leaves cutting benefits to old folks and poor people.

Even Reagan recognized that a modest raise in the deduction caps brought solvency back into the system, and even now more people with jobs would stabilized not only the deficit, but also lower spending in the long term.

How you capitalists can ignore the supply, DEMAND, and circulation as equal parts of economic equations is a testament to the one sided-ness that's really unfair to the whole, and what landed us in this position in the first place. To continue what screwed us up, sounds like an intentional robbery to me.

Just because the rules were wiped out systematically doesn't mean its not criminal, or you are being honest about whose fault it really is. The socialist didn't screw us, you greedy capitalist did, and still are and that's the real reason your side has lost yet another presidency.

Tal he is still bleeting about having to pay more or being forced to pay his share.

The way to get control of medical costs is a government oversighted program with a single payer on the insurance side. In other words capping the benefit procedure by procedure. The patient can then "negotiate" with the doctor or the insurer can do it on behalf of the patient. In our system the patient is not allowed to insure for the gap on simple procedures so you get a co-payment and the patient can decide if the doctor is worth it. There are many doctors who work for the regulated fee and bill the single payer.The single payer also works for drugs with the government oversight of drugs, same deal a fixed benefit and a dispensing fee to the pharmacist, so there is no running to Canada for cheap drugs, I've seen their prices not cheap

Your free enterprise system is killing you because the doctors are in charge, used to be that way here, now we deliver quality medicine at a fraction of your cost

Let the lazy bums that skipped class in high school and probably even dropped out work harder to pay their own way... they made their choices then... they don't deserve a free ride now because the rest of us actually studied and worked..

Yes it's like the money end of town ever cared about public education or passed the opportunity to go to college to the poor..

Your free enterprise system is killing you because the doctors are in charge, used to be that way here, now we deliver quality medicine at a fraction of your cost

The doctors are not in charge. It's the lawyers that are in charge and they are the ones that are adding huge amounts of money to go to nothing. It's the lawuit lottery that runs deep in the medical system that is ruining it.

The doctors are not in charge. Its the lawyers that are in charge and they are the ones that are adding huge amounts of money to go to nothing. Its the lawuit lottery that runs deep in the medical system that is ruining it.

Well place limits on liability, that's what we have done. You just have to bite the bullet and stop the lottery,stop the lawyers running away with the system, and stop the vexacious suits that have no merit

well place limits on liability, that's what we have done. you just have to bite the bullet and stop the lottery,stop the lawyers running away with the system, and stop the vexacious suits that have no merit

Actuallt they could leave the limits alone and just make it loser pays. That would stop most of it in its tracks right away.

Actuallt they could leave the limits alone and just make it loser pays. That would stop most of it in its tracks right away.

So you allow no win no pay then, but costs can be awarded to the other side

It's court costs... there is no consequences for bringing frivilous civil cases to court .

Way off base guys as what we are talking about is the costs of health care which is skyrocketing, has been for decades, and its insurance companies and hospitals controlling the whole show, not doctors, lawyers, and patients. Even not for profit religious based hospitals are raking in huge amounts in inflated billing practices.

This isn't the free market, it's a very closed market with one beneficiary.

Yes it's like the money end of town ever cared about public education or passed the opportunity to go to college to the poor..

Um... the Poor have a better opportunity to go to college than you think... fully paid for. At least in this country.

That is if you are a minority... if you are poor and white... and NOT on Welfare.. you get the shaft...

Most of my time in high school my parents worked part time jobs to make ends meet... because my father was laid off most of the time...

Yet being born white... I got no help... funny how if you are white and working part time jobs to pay your mortgage and raise your kids... you are considered too wealthy to get help... even if Welfare would have ben a step UP... than they got to go to COllege free... PLUS they got Paid to go to class also, How do you think Obama got a free ride... it wasn't from grades... in those years any minority that wanted to go to college got in free... and they had quotas back then that had nothing to do with merit.

I know this because Obama is only a few months older than I am. I got the shaft being white while he got it all handed to him being a minority.

He got a free ride even though HE was actually pretty well off... and I had to borrow every dime I was allowed in student loans to go to college... at over 8% interest that I spent a decade paying back... Obama had his paid for by tax dollars for no other reason than his skin color.

Way off base guys as what we are talking about is the costs of health care which is skyrocketing, has been for decades, and its insurance companies and hospitals controlling the whole show, not doctors, lawyers, and patients. Even not for profit religious based hospitals are raking in huge amounts in inflated billing practices.

This isn't the free market, it's a very closed market with one beneficiary.

Probably so ;but don't call it free market . The problem of course is that it has been rigged against free competition by government regulation... and the solution would be a return to free competition.

Not content to advise you should blast off a couple of shots outside from your porch with a 12 gauge, Joe "Shotgun" Biden offers this advice (http://www.fieldandstream.com/articles/guns/2013/02/gun-control-joe-biden-interview):


I said, “Well, you know, my shotgun will do better for you than your AR-15, because you want to keep someone away from your house, just fire the shotgun through the door.”

I would hope you're damn sure of what's on the other side but hey...

Wait, isn't that that Pistorius guy's excuse, he shot through the door first and asked questions later (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/19/us-safrica-pistorius-idUSBRE91F02L20130219)?

Well maybe VP Joe's advice isn't really the best advice...

Biden Advises Shooting Shotgun Through Door - US News and World Report (http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/02/28/biden-advises-shooting-shotgun-through-door)

well maybe VP Joe's advice aint really the best advice ....

Biden Advises Shooting Shotgun Through Door - US News and World Report (http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/02/28/biden-advises-shooting-shotgun-through-door)

Yep, the "Oscar Pistorius school of self-defense" as noted above. Pretty much all of Joe's advice could get you arrested. And for some reason "Dumbya" keeps coming to mind this week...

http://www.investors.com/image/RAMFNLclr-022713-stupid-IBD.jpg.cms

Not content to advise you should blast off a couple of shots outside from your porch with a 12 gauge, Joe "Shotgun" Biden offers this advice (http://www.fieldandstream.com/articles/guns/2013/02/gun-control-joe-biden-interview):



I would hope you're damn sure of what's on the other side but hey...

Wait, isn't that that Pistorius guy's excuse, he shot through the door first and asked questions later (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/19/us-safrica-pistorius-idUSBRE91F02L20130219)?

Buy a Shotgun Joe Biden Lying AR-15 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jafkVM-jnbE&feature=player_embedded)

And you honestly think Biden meant for you to shoot through the door if the doorbell rings?

And you honestly think Biden meant for you to shoot thru the door if the doorbell rings?

If that is what he said and if his shoot off the balcony didn't scare off an intruder. Than Im sure he meant what he said.

And you honestly think Biden meant for you to shoot thru the door if the doorbell rings?

What does "shoot through the door" mean to you?

What does "shoot through the door" mean to you?
To mean it means something said tongue in cheek. Note the context.

I am sure he was quite serious .He's made the reference to shotguns on more than one occasion. The video was also accurate on a shot gun's recoil.

I am sure he was quite serious .He's made the reference to shotguns on more than one occasion. The video was also accurate on a shot gun's recoil.
Of course, the skinny young women who were firing a shotgun in the video had absolutely no experience with a shotgun and did not expect and know how to predict and deal with the recoil. I personally will use my Mauser.

Of course, the skinny young women who were firing a shotgun in the video had absolutely no experience with a shotgun and did not expect and know how to predict and deal with the recoil. I personally will use my Mauser.

Lol

The SEAL team that got bin laden (at least the last account I read says so) shot through the first door in that building that they came to and inflicted significant damage. But I can't conjure up a circumstance where a homeowner would do that. I have a camera on my front porch so I can see what is going on out there.
I could see someone about to ram the door but it could still be police out to make a raid-- and having gotten the wrong address, which happens more frequently than we would want to believe. I didn't see the reports or video but if the VP actually recommended shooting through a door not knowing for absolute certainty who it was on the other side-- he needs a serious mental exam.
Maybe in the case of a battered spouse who has been threatened repeatedly and it is well documented that they have made the threats and the victim knows they will be overpowered or out maneuvered if the "killer" gets in the house. But it always better if the perp is on the inside of the threshold when they come to get the body.

To mean it means something said tongue in cheek. Note the context.

I read the context, he was dead serious... just as he was about shooting off the balcony.

The SEAL team that got bin laden (at least the last account I read says so) shot through the first door in that building that they came to and inflicted significant damage. But I can't conjure up a circumstance where a homeowner would do that. I have a camera on my front porch so I can see what is going on out there.
I could see someone about to ram the door but it could still be police out to make a raid-- and having gotten the wrong address, which happens more frequently than we would want to believe. I didn't see the reports or video but if the VP actually recommended shooting through a door not knowing for absolute certainty who it was on the other side-- he needs a serious mental exam.
Maybe in the case of a battered spouse who has been threatened repeatedly and it is well documented that they have made the threats and the victim knows they will be overpowered or out maneuvered if the "killer" gets in the house. But it always better if the perp is on the inside of the threshold when they come to get the body.


I know of a situation where the homeowner did exactly that. They killed the perp on the porch. No charges were filed as there was enough evidence to show a real threat. But it is not something I would "recomend" to anyone. Any responsible gun owner knows your responsible for wherever the bullet lands.

From Castle Doctrine Protects Pennsylvanians' Rights | Pennsylvania Federal Criminal Defense Attorneys Blog (http://www.dennisboylelaw.com/blog/2012/03/castle-doctrine-protects-pennsylvanians-rights.shtml) date March 2012
"This past summer the governor extended the reach of the Castle Doctrine to mean that peoples' right to defend themselves could include places directly outside their homes, like the front porch. In the previous interpretation of the doctrine, Pennsylvania residents had to flee at the sign of danger in order to use deadly force for protection, but now self-defense is permitted without an attempt to escape."
One has to remember that the perp can shoot through the door also, which makes relatively cheap and easy to install cameras a good investment, so looking through a peephole or door glass is not necessary. Also makes it easy to record the perp's behavior on the front porch.
These castle doctrine type laws appear to be cut and dried, but there will be investigations to preclude the possibility of a set up for homicide, such as inviting someone to one's house, shooting them on the house side of the threshold, and claiming they attacked and caused a fear of one's life. The Martin case in FL shows that these laws aren't so cut and dried. Calling 911 and staying on the line so encounters are recorded (unless they hang up on you) can help document what went on also.
I should clarify too that the above quote led off with following quote (actually a confrontation which occurred on front porch):
"Recently a Pennsylvania man was involved in a violent incident with his wife's lover. He shot the man with a bow and arrow on the front porch of his home. The man struck with the arrow was fatally injured, but the shooter is protected by Pennsylvania's Castle Doctrine and criminal charges will not be filed against him. "

Also reinforces that guns aren't the only weapons or objects that can kill.

Exactly.. the FIRST rule of gun safety... is being able to see and identify your target BEFORE pulling the trigger. Unless that door is glass or at least a glass panel in it, you don't meet that standard.

Yesterday in Baltimore per Baltimore Sun:

"Robbers posed as police officers in Kingsville home invasion

10:30 p.m. EST, March 4, 2013
Baltimore County Police say an armed home invasion occurred Monday in the 7400 block of Mount Vista Road, Kingsville.

Police say that on March 4, at approximately 8:30 a.m., two armed men identifying themselves as police officers forced their way into a residence.

The suspects took numerous items, including an unknown amount of currency, police said. Two male victims were tied up and were eventually freed by a family member. One of the victims was transported to an area hospital, where he was treated for minor injuries.The two suspects, identified only as white males, fled the scene.

County police are warning residents to be cautious when answering their doors for persons identifying themselves as police officers. All officers should have proper identification in addition to a badge, police said. If residents have any doubt, they should call 911 or their police precinct and not open the door.

Anyone with information about this incident is asked to call 410-307-2020 or Metro Crime Stoppers at 1-877-7-Lockup. "

How do you deal with this situation?
Open the door armed and get shot by bad guys or maybe even by legit police.
Open the door unarmed and be immediately overpowered or shot?
Call 911 and hope they can check with one or more police agencies and get good info quickly, while good guy/bad guys? Break door down?
Do a Joe Biden through the door and hope for best?

The one above was done in broad daylight. But it's a fairly isolated spot even though in a metropolitan area. Good luck with that recommended ask for ID plan.

My home is my castle as enshrined in the Magna Carta

Hello again,

If I thought that current gun control proposals were designed to END crime, I wouldn't support them either.

I know a guy could kill a lot of people with a knife. Do you think he could kill 26?

excon

Hello again,

If I thought that current gun control proposals were designed to END crime, I wouldn't support them either.

I know a guy could kill a lot of people with a knife. Do you think he could kill 26?

excon

What's wrong with the thousands of other regulations on the books already... how about they enforce those... or does the left really believe violent felons have the right to be free committing crimes?

Its clear in some states they do... arguing convicted criminals on Death row are having their rights violated by being executed... by the same people that feels its perfectly find and their constitutional right to execute their babies... and then have the gaul to argue the tax payers should pay for it.

Hello smoothy:

Chill out, dude. I know you're mad, but try to focus on the question. Did you fail to answer because you KNOW a guy with knife couldn't kill 26 people?? That's a pretty good argument FOR gun control. Go smoothy..

excon

Hello smoothy:

Chill out, dude. I know you're mad, but try to focus on the question. Did you fail to answer because you KNOW a guy with knife couldn't kill 26 people??? That's a pretty good argument FOR gun control. Go smoothy..

excon

Who said a guy with a knife couldn't kill 26 people? Hell... there were well over a million a year in the USA alone... Christian Life Resources (http://www.christianliferesources.com/article/u-s-abortion-statistics-by-year-1973-current-1042)

Is there some magic number threshold we should be looking for?

Hello again, Steve

So, you think I'm talking about MATH? Dude!

This divide will NEVER be breached...

excon

Dude, you're the one fixated on a number, what's your point?

Hello again, Steve:


Dude, you're the one fixated on a number, what's your point?In the country I live in, we count stuff. Whereas 1 or 2 might be acceptable, a number like 26 might NOT be acceptable. If we didn't count, we'd never know what's acceptable, and what's not.

I'm just pointing out that VOLUME matters. Apparently, however, I'm pointing it out to people who don't KNOW that volume matters, or don't CARE.

But, that's why I'm here - to point out the TRUTH.

Excon

Is there some magic number threshold we should be looking for?


Dude, you're the one fixated on a number, what's your point?

The point is the bad guy with a gun can kill a lot more people than a bad guy with a knife. The point is a bad guy that wants to inflict a lot of damage finds a gun, not a knife and that magic number threshold are PEOPLE, who have people in their lives that will be deeply affected by the actions of the bad guy with a gun, instead of a knife.

The point is the bad guy with a gun can kill a lot more people than a bad guy with a knife. The point is a bad guy that wants to inflict a lot of damage finds a gun, not a knife and that magic number threshold are PEOPLE, who have people in their lives that will be deeply affected by the actions of the bad guy with a gun, instead of a knife.

Chicago has gun laws on the books... why don't they enforce those first.

And incidentally... IED's are very easy to make, and far more effective than any gun Joe Average can buy is... want to ban every possible thing that can be used to make those too? Good luck trying.

Dudes, I think I've heard your point about a thousand times in the last two months, but until now you've not quantified what number of people you might be able to kill is acceptable. I see that number is "1 or 2."

Okie dokie...

One is to many, and grounds for intervention.

Chicago's problem is poverty. Where there is poverty you will find guns, drugs, and criminals. Poverty is a breeding ground for the worst in humans and it doesn't matter where the poverty is or what part of the world it is.

So why then libs want to keep them dependent on government?

There is no shame in temporary help and guidance since that's all they have. Dependency come when there are NO other options that are viable, and you have to concede the economy with a tight jobs market is not a viable option to poverty, and charity falls short too.

For sure something is terribly wrong when the working people need assistance from government programs. That's a big red flag that something ain't right when it comes to the way we deal with the American people.

If we agree that America needs jobs, and government shouldn't be job creators, then who should we demand jobs from, and what do we do for those that languish without a job? If we don't have a better strategy than the one we have now, then we beg for more dependence, more poverty, and even more competition from the underground economy that poverty has created over a very long time.

All of this in the wake of many jobs being lost and new people put into the poverty that being jobless creates. We libs don't want anyone dependent on government, but we dohave to support and guide those through nofault of their own, find themselves between a rock and hard place.

You cannot make a job as a condition for that help when there are no jobs.

It doesn't become dependence until they have been on welfare beyond 3 generations apparently.

Speaking of poisoning the well, who said anything about there being shame in temporary assistance or any other kind? You know good and well I don't believe that. The problem is your side doesn't know the meaning of the word "temporary" and your president is more interested in his legacy than his people.

It doesn't become dependence untill they have been on welfare beyond 3 generations apparently.

And until the poverty issue is solved you will always have a poor class. And when economic conditions worsen, that poor class grows. To blame generations of failed policy on the latest administration is pretty biased and extremely ignorant. It just looks worse because the problem has grown.

Speaking of poisoning the well, who said anything about there being shame in temporary assistance or any other kind? You know good and well I don't believe that. The problem is your side doesn't know the meaning of the word "temporary" and your president is more interested in his legacy than his people.

Who supples the outcome of a job?? There is NO solution to poverty without a JOB being available.

Who supples the outcome of a job???? There is NO solution to poverty without a JOB being available.

It's your guy that wants to make a show of scaring and inflicting pain on Americans instead of creating jobs.

And until the poverty issue is solved you will always have a poor class. And when economic conditions worsen, that poor class grows. To blame generations of failed policy on the latest adminstration is pretty biased and extremely ignorant. It just looks worse because the problem has grown.

How about they get off their butts and get a job... there are plenty of jobs out there... 22 million illegals work in them... some of those are good paying jobs.

But then the Illegals have something the welfare bums don't.

A work ethinc... because you have to get out of bed in the morning if you have a job.

If you are defending the welfare bums... you obviously don't know many of them... 99.9% of them have no other problem other than terminal laziness.

If you are defending the welfare bums...you obviously don't know many of them.....99.9% of them have no other problem other than terminal laziness.
Do you know any personally? I do. The homeless/"welfare bums" passing through Libraryland are usually alcoholics or mentally ill or both.

Do you know any personally? I do. The homeless/"welfare bums" passing through Libraryland are usually alcoholics or mentally ill or both.

I grew up around a lot of 2nd and third generation welfare bums... I knew their entire families EXTREMELY well... I knew enough of them well enough to know any argument to the contrary is total BS.

They are all happy to sit on their butts and get handouts so they can cruise through life without having to get up early or break a sweat.

And also.. how are Homeless people collecting welfare anyway... you need an address to collect welfare... how are they collecting it without a place to even rent? What are they wasting all that money on anyway?

If they are mentally ill... thank the Democrats for turning them loose, if they refuse to take their meds... then its all on them and I don't give a hoot,. if they are drunks... thats their own fault... give them some methanol to speed them along. THey had plenty of opportunity to get treatment before they ended up homeless...

If they were truly disabled they would be on SSI disability... welfare is what the able bodied lazy people use to mooch off the system.

and also..how are Homeless people collecting welfare anyway...you need an adress to collect welfare...how are they collecting it without a place to even rent? What are they wasting all that money on anyway?
The PADS (county shelter) headquarters is one address. People's Resource Center (multi-function site for low-income and homeless) is another. Some have friends and relatives who get mail for them. They buy food at area grocery stores and clothing at the Salvation Army or other charity stores. They take cabs from shelter to shelter (no decent bus service in this county). The checks aren't overwhelming huge.

The PADS (county shelter) headquarters is one address. People's Resource Center (multi-function site for low-income and homeless) is another. Some have friends and relatives who get mail for them. They buy food at area grocery stores and clothing at the Salvation Army or other charity stores. They take cabs from shelter to shelter (no decent bus service in this county). The checks aren't overwhelming huge.

Welfare checks are big enough to rent a place and live on... and are bigger than someone working a single minimum wage job would earn.

Welfare checks are big enough to rent a place and live on.....and are bigger than someone working a single minimum wage job would earn.

Now there is a real indication of what is wrong with the system, the minimum wage should be way more than welfare as an incentive for people to work, where I come from welfare is about half the minimum wage and unemployment about a third

Now there is a real indication of what is wrong with the system, the minimum wage should be way more than welfare as an incentive for people to work, where I come from welfare is about half the minimum wage and unemployment about a third

Why should high school dropouts that count to 11 without unzipping their pants get the wages recent college crads or high school grads start with?

Most of them are lucky the get out of bed before lunchtime. Mostly because they hang out until 3 or 4 am robbing people.

Originally Posted by paraclete
Now there is a real indication of what is wrong with the system, the minimum wage should be way more than welfare as an incentive for people to work, where I come from welfare is about half the minimum wage and unemployment about a third

Point well made Clete, and to just add Smoothy's attitude against those not as smart as he is makes my case for why there is poverty in the first place. That's what happens when a sourpuss get an extra buck, he pats himself on the back, and slaps the next fellow. Heavan forbid he get competition from those he derides. That would throw his world order into chaos.

He can no longer measure himself by how many are beneath him. That's why the solution to him is to work harder and pursue that imaginary job, instead of shutting up and getting out of the way.

OK keep denying new workers the chance to learn a trade or profession outside of college and you consign them to poverty and dependency for the rest of their lives... the liberal solution!!

Everybody should have a chance to learn, that's the liberal approach, but you have to eat too!

Never once have you heard me say an education or training is unnecessary. Obama has said it's a priority investment, for which you blast him for.

Dude, there are only so many places for philosophy and dance majors.

ok keep denying new workers the chance to learn a trade or profession outside of college and you consign them to poverty and dependency for the rest of their lives....the liberal solution!!!
President Obama has said high schools and community colleges are great places to offer vocational training and certificates for daycare, line cook, auto mechanic, hospital tech/lab worker, vet tech, etc. At my h.s. back in the day, we had two tracks (college/professional and vocational training), and students were moved onto one of those tracks after intensive testing and counseling. So let's go back to that model. That way, colleges would get students who could handle the demands, and the workforce would get trained workers (who would have been coached in job hunting).

Now there is a real indication of what is wrong with the system, the minimum wage should be way more than welfare as an incentive for people to work, where I come from welfare is about half the minimum wage and unemployment about a third

If that were the case in this country then the minimum wage would be around $25 per hour worked. Welfare is very generous here in the states.

The Work Versus Welfare Trade-Off: An Analysis of the Total Level of Welfare Benefits by State (http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-240.html)

There is no shame in temporary help and guidance since thats all they have. Dependency come when there are NO other options that are viable, and you have to concede the economy with a tight jobs market is not a viable option to poverty, and charity falls short too.

For sure something is terribly wrong when the working people need assistance from government programs. Thats a big red flag that something ain't right when it comes to the way we deal with the American people.

If we agree that America needs jobs, and government shouldn't be job creators, then who should we demand jobs from, and what do we do for those that languish without a job? If we don't have a better strategy than the one we have now, then we beg for more dependence, more poverty, and even more competition from the underground economy that poverty has created over a very long time.

All of this in the wake of many jobs being lost and new people put into the poverty that being jobless creates. We libs don't want anyone dependent on government, but we dohave to support and guide those thru nofault of their own, find themselves between a rock and hard place.

You cannot make a job as a condition for that help when there are no jobs.
This last line bothers me. It is because I believe you can make it a condition. If a erson is of low education then their job is to get educated. If they keep popping out babies then they can join a CoOp and babysit for those getting an education etc. Yes those that can work should one way or another. As far as alchoholics goes they shouldn't be supported by the system without conditions. One of them being to get straightened out. We need to put time limits on programs. We need to convert many off the public dole and onto being productive tax payers. That way there will always be a safety net.

We need to put time limits on programs. We need to convert many off the public dole and onto being productive tax payers. That way there will always be a safety net.
And if they don't meet the time limit, then what?

And if they don't meet the time limit, then what?

Then that is their choice. Start a reduction down to very basic levels.

Then that is their choice. Start a reduction down to very basic levels.
Yes, but what happens to them? They are refused public aid and any associated benefits? They are sent to Nevada to die in the desert?

If that were the case in this country then the minimum wage would be around $25 per hour worked. Welfare is very generous here in the states.

The Work Versus Welfare Trade-Off: An Analysis of the Total Level of Welfare Benefits by State (http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-240.html)

Goes along way to eliminate poverty, wipe out the deficit, and stimulate the economy as Wall Street sets a record, and businesses have never done better.


Any welfare reform proposal must recognize that individuals are unlikely to move from welfare to work as long as welfare pays as well as or better than working. That suggests that the most promising welfare reforms are those that substantially cut back on the level of benefits.

Rather than raise the minimum wage? Come on!!

Yes, but what happens to them? They are refused public aid and any associated benefits? They are sent to Nevada to die in the desert?

They go on to live at minimum levels. Food and shelter and a small amount for clothing. No cellphone. No new cars no extras that life can afford you at higher income levels.

Goes along way to eliminate poverty, wipe out the deficit, and stimulate the economy as Wall Street sets a record, and businesses have never done better.



Rather than raise the minimum wage? Come on!!!!!!!!!!!

What your talking about would cause hyper inflation. Im sure you have your wheelbarrow handy for buying that loaf of bread. Do you think you could still buy a hamburger for a dollar if the minimum wage were $25 ? What it shows is how over the top generous this country has been with welfare. It should be more about giving a hand up then giving a hand out.

What your talking about would cause hyper inflation. Im sure you have your wheelbarrow handy for buyin that loaf of bread. Do you think you could still buy a hamburger for a dollar if the minimum wage were $25 ? What it shows is how over the top generous this country has been with welfare. It should be more about giving a hand up then giving a hand out.

So why do we give oil companies and corporations welfare, through deductions and loop holes since a hand up for them isn't needed. That's what destroys the argument for me is that welfare for the ordinary is bad, but for big business its good.

So you think we should be competing with 3rd world wages?

It should be more about giving a hand up then giving a hand out.
I agree, but how would that work? Job coaching? A social worker/counselor assigned to each person to monitor their progress?

So why do we give oil companies and corporations welfare, thru deductions and loop holes since a hand up for them isn't needed. Thats what destroys the argument for me is that welfare for the ordinary is bad, but for big business its good.

So you think we should be competing with 3rd world wages?

Why are we giving Hollywood massive subsidies and tax credits with the money they make... why do we give Obama free vacations at the expense of the poor with the Millions he has...

I agree, but how would that work? job coaching? a social worker/counselor assigned to each person to monitor their progress?

Works like this.

CalWORKs Welfare-to-Work (http://www.ladpss.org/dpss/calworks/wtw.cfm)

Works like this.

CalWORKs Welfare-to-Work (http://www.ladpss.org/dpss/calworks/wtw.cfm)
Is that successful? There has been a gradually lessening of people on welfare?

So why do we give oil companies and corporations welfare, thru deductions and loop holes since a hand up for them isn't needed. Thats what destroys the argument for me is that welfare for the ordinary is bad, but for big business its good.

So you think we should be competing with 3rd world wages?

Which loopholes are we talking about here? Can you be a little more specific then just the broad brush your painting with ?

Legitimate business expenses are going to occur. Now if you would like to eliminate all expenses and move to a "fair tax" Im for it. But it seems you and this president want to subsidize a select industry even if it's a failure and take away from those that are a succeeding. What is your definition of coporate welfare?

Is that successful? There has been a gradually lessening of people on welfare?

Yes to an extent it has been working and getting people to get into the work force and off welfare rolls. Like with any system it has its problems but it has been chugging along and does have a mainly positive outcome.

The idea is theory is to raise a persons self worth so they can be proud again and want to succeed verses just hanging in there for the long haul.

I agree, but how would that work? job coaching? a social worker/counselor assigned to each person to monitor their progress?

Seems to work around here, every fortnight they face an interview about what they have done to get a job and there are reskilling programs as well as specific counselor help if they have disabilities like anxiety, depression, etc

seems to work around here, every fortnight they face an interview about what they have done to get a job and there are reskilling programs as well as specific councellor help if they have disabilities like anxiety, depression, etc
Who pays for that? The government?

Yes all part of the service, our government is serious about getting people off the welfare and unemployment queues, they just cut the benefits to single parents with children over 8 and they refuse to lift the unemployment payment, a little while back they changed the rules on disability benefits, and get this, these guys are what you call liberal, we, of course, call them something else

From the same state that suggests, whistles, ball point pens and peeing or puking on cue as a defense against rape, a Colorado Democrat lectured a rape victim on rape statistics (http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2013/03/05/colorado-democrat-lectures-rape-survivor-amanda-collins-about-rape-statistics-n1526392), telling her the odds are a gun wouldn't have helped:


"I just want to say statistics are not on your side, even if you had had a gun. You said that you were a martial arts student, I mean person, experience in taekwondo, and yet because this individual was so large and was able to overcome you even with your skills, and chances are that if you had had a gun, then he would have been able to get than from you and possibly use it against you," Hudak said.

I'm sorry you moron, I think she deserves the chance to defend herself so as not to become a rape victim. Another Dem, Democratic Strategist Zerlina Maxwell thinks the solution is to teach men not to rape (http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2013/03/06/liberal-logic-to-prevent-rape-teach-men-not-to-rape-n1526983). Perhaps she can start with the UN.

The money quote from Dana Loesch, "There is a war on women, and it’s coming from the left to turn women into victims."

Seriously, what does the left have against women?

From the same state that suggests, whistles, ball point pens and peeing or puking on cue as a defense against rape, a Colorado Democrat lectured a rape victim on rape statistics (http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2013/03/05/colorado-democrat-lectures-rape-survivor-amanda-collins-about-rape-statistics-n1526392), telling her the odds are a gun wouldn't have helped:



I'm sorry you moron, I think she deserves the chance to defend herself so as not to become a rape victim. Another Dem, Democratic Strategist Zerlina Maxwell thinks the solution is to teach men not to rape (http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2013/03/06/liberal-logic-to-prevent-rape-teach-men-not-to-rape-n1526983). Perhaps she can start with the UN.

The money quote from Dana Loesch, "There is a war on women, and it’s coming from the left to turn women into victims."

Seriously, what does the left have against women?

THey just hate that a woman can fight back... just think if every woman had a gun.. Bill Clinton would not have lived long enough to become president.

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/gun-shaped-cloud-spotted-over-school.jpg

Lol ;did you see the pop tart ?
Pop-Tart 'gun' suspension: Seriously, folks? (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/compost/wp/2013/03/05/pop-tart-gun-suspension-seriously-folks/)

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/c0.0.400.400/p403x403/602063_10152637628985553_1214492772_n.jpg

It's a no-brainer, the kid shouldn't have pointed the pastry.

Geez...

School seizes cupcakes decorated with toy soldiers (http://news.msn.com/us/school-seizes-cupcakes-decorated-with-toy-soldiers)

The silliness continues.

School seizes cupcakes decorated with toy soldiers (http://news.msn.com/us/school-seizes-cupcakes-decorated-with-toy-soldiers)

The silliness continues.
My preschool co-teacher took away a toy gun from a student, so the little boy lifted his hand and made the shape of a gun and shot her.

My preschool co-teacher took away a toy gun from a student, so the little boy lifted up his hand and made the shape of a gun and shot her.

Was he suspended for pointing his finger?

Was he suspended for pointing his finger?
Nope, and it was a Christian school too. He is now a Christian teacher.

Nope, and it was a Christian school too. He is now a Christian teacher.

In other words he didn't become a mass murderer.

In other words he didn't become a mass murderer.
Not yet.

Not yet.

And what's he doing now?

And what's he doing now?
Right this minute? I have no idea. I said he's a Christian (parochial) school teacher.

Yes you did, sorry. So has he created any mass murderers?

The city that Our president hails from, Chicago, has the highest gun/murder rate in the entire Nation. Washington DC is next with the highest gun crime in the nation. This subject is NOT ABOUT GUNS. This debate should be about PEOPLE. Tell me one deterrent in our justice system that would make a career criminal NOT use a gun? NOT ONE. The Death Penalty is all but gone and where it is still on the books, it take years and years and a lot of taxpayer money to get it done, it it actually is done. A decision by the Supreme Court in 2005 states that the police "are not bound by law to PROTECT anyone. Their sole job is to enforce the law."
So who is to protect the people who live in these crime ridden cities... no one. Is it reasonable to think that one should do everything possible, within the law , to protect themselves, their property, and their families? Absolutely. I have no problem with background checks(I went through them when I obtained a carry permit in NY 40 years ago), registering guns and keeping them locked in a safe place in my home or place of business. I have no problem with law abiding citizens carrying a concealed handgun for their own personal protection. There is NO PLACE anywhere in this country, in this day and age, that one can be certain that they are completely safe from crime or criminals. The shootings that spur these "gun control" people, are no perpetrated by law abiding citizens. They are perpetrated by someone who has had a history of crime, a history of mental illness and uses ILLEGALLY obtained guns. The needs to be a national data base of persons with mental disorders that prove to be socially dangerous. Then when background checks are done, that information turns up also. This is an issue of human behavior. Let's face one thing. People in today's world are bombarded every minute of everyday with the sensationalism of crime and it's perpetrators and victims. We know of a murder anywhere in the world within minutes of it happening. We do not need to know that. When "news" was not instantaneous, most things in other countries were not known for months if ever.
I do not care what happens in Timbuktoo. It has nothing to do with the way I live my life here. I am concerned about what happens in my home town and my home State and what our "Representative" are doing in Washington. WE need to stop paying attention and supporting other countries troubles and take care and worry about the citizens of THIS country. A sequester of $85 billion in cuts but the government can authorize $260 Million in aid to a country that would rather see us destroy ourselves than help them.We can be the police of the world but we do not need to be it's wet nurse. Guns are only a crutch for the powers that be to distract us from the real issues.

Latest news suggests only 35% of US homes possess guns so it seems gun possession is a minority issue, a very vocal minority but a minority issue nonetheless. If only 35% will be alienated by improved gun control what is stopping government from getting the job done?