Hello:

Ordinary folks understand that if you don't take advantage of an opportunity when it presents itself, you probably won't get a second chance. That is the essence of entrepreneurship.

IF the business community is holding back, as the right wing would have us believe, then we are for sure headed for the junkheap, because it's the exact OPPOSITE of what good businessmen SHOULD be doing. Ordinary, every day citizens understand that...

Frankly, I'm investing every penny I have. I've NEVER been CERTAIN about ANY investment. If I waited till I was, I'd NEVER invest. If I kept my money on the sidelines, because I didn't know how much tax I'll owe on my PROFITS, I'll NEVER make PROFITS. If I didn't invest because I didn't know how much regulation my new business would be under, I wouldn't HAVE a business to BE regulated...

To ME, these are just simple TRUTHS. The right wing, people who SHOULD know about business, are telling me something else. Should I believe them, or my lying eyes?

excon

What you are saying is almost true. The biggest part of the equation is the unknown. So lets try putting it this way. If someone were to announce a new tax on your business but they don't announce the rate. How likely are you to invest in new hires if you have to lay them off as soon as the new taxes hit?

Right now it's a wait and see game. Those that are currently afloat are waiting to see what happens in the near future and are only taking baby steps as of right now. It is actually smart business practice.

You and Paul Krugman against Fortune 500 Execs ,small business owners across the nation according to small business surveys ;and economists other than Krugman across the country.

http://www.bizjournals.com/southflorida/news/2012/10/22/florida-chamber-economic-uncertainty.html


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/on-small-business/post/business-owners-to-candidates-how-will-you-alleviate-fear-and-uncertainty/2012/10/15/9ec116fc-125a-11e2-a16b-2c110031514a_blog.html



The election is just weeks away and essentially a horse-race, and its outcomes would have vastly divergent policy implications,” said NFIB chief economist William Dunkelberg. “Everyone is waiting to see what happens, especially small-business owners who have a lot at stake in the outcome—which could mean higher marginal tax rates and more deficits, OR lower marginal tax rates and less government. Small-business owners are reporting that the political climate is a reason not to expand—second only to the economy, which is only keeping up with population growth. And so, in the meantime, owners are in maintenance mode; spending only where necessary and not hiring, expanding or ordering more inventories until the future becomes more 'certain.'”
http://www.nfib.com/press-media/press-media-item?cmsid=61152

Note the source is the National Federation of Independent Businesses annual survey... Not some Right Wingers who know nothing about business as you claim.


Health care costs are the top factor affecting business decisions ahead of a presidential election that features very different visions for reform, according to a survey released today by the Principal Financial Group.

Fifty-seven percent of respondents in the Principal survey said health care concerns were affecting their business decisions, with 54 percent citing the economy. The Des Moines-based financial services company hired Harris Interactive to survey 604 small- and midsize-business owners in August.

Other issues of concern were taxes, which were cited by 45 percent of respondents; gas prices, which were cited by 43 percent; unemployment, 37 percent; and inflation, 36 percent...

The problem for many employers is one of uncertainty as they try to determine where and how to put their money to work, said Amy Friedrich, a vice president in Principal's specialty benefits division. Two-thirds of the 604 employers said they were holding off on making long-term financial commitments.
.

http://blogs.desmoinesregister.com/dmr/index.php/2012/10/24/survey-says-health-care-uncertainty-concerns-business-owners/article

Plenty more of those can be found without a hard search on the web. But you and Krugman alone dispute it.

What you are saying Ex is businessmen are behaving like a lot of scared rabbits because they don't know where the fox is. Well the reality is they never know where the fox is and tax is a very small part of the real business equation, which is how much can I sell and how fast can I grow. Growth is perhaps a little stagnant right now in some sectors and it might be a little harder to figure how much they can sell, but if their decisions are based on whether the tax position might be altered by a couple of percent they are fools

Taxes are but one of the issues causing uncertainty. Many businesses are looking at a pending fiscal cliff that includes sequestration. Many businesses have not sent out the pink slips already because of a special request of the Obama adm for them to ignore the laws provisions to give a 3 month notice before layoffs.
Then there is the blank check that the Democrat Congress gave to the Director of the new Consumer Financial Protection Board (CFPB) ,from the Dodd-Frank law ,to make regulation on the fly ,and to interpret regulations as the Director sees fit. This is definitely impacting the money available in the credit market even as the Fed has pumped Monopoly money into the system.
Then there is the potential impact of a Euro collapse as their social nanny-state system continues to implode.
I could go on but you get the point. If it is a handful of businesses that are reacting this way you can then claim that they are 'fools ' . When you see a significant part of the market reacting that way ,then it has to be something else . I chalk it down to an administration that came in hostile to business ;and has not changed it's stripes.

What you are saying Tom is there is an environment of fear, of negative thinking, worrying about things that may have no real impact. The US is not Greece, Tom and it should not be thinking like Greece. You are seeing growth, small growth admittedly, but growth, now is the time to respond expectantly, not to hide in fear. The right wants to claim Obama's policies have made no difference, that is not true, it hasn't yielded spectacular results, but things have turned around. What your economy needs is some restructuring reducing burdens on business such as health coverage and paper work

Ridiculous growth ;a GDP that is growing less than the population . To stay steady we should be at 4 % .We should be growing even faster given the extent of the fall. It is government policies that are shackling growth and the business community knows it. This isn't a extreme Right wing talking point . It is what businesses across the nation are saying (except EX) .


What your economy needs is some restructuring reducing burdens on business such as health coverage and paper work

It is not just paperwork . The Bakken fields are now producing 5% of the oil of the nation . It would be producing 15% with a pipeline that the President's anti-growth policies blocks. That is but one example of the myriad of anti-growth policies and regulations he has already implemented... and that doesn't scratch the surface of what he has planned if we unfortunately reelect him.

Hello again, tom:


This isn't a extreme Right wing talking point .No? I suspect MOST businessmen are Republicans.

If you notice, my post is not a left wing talking point.. It's a capitalist/free market talking point.. What I LOVE about business, is that it doesn't care about me. It doesn't care about my politics or my criminal record. It doesn't care about ANYTHING but supply and demand.. And, when YOUR market makes demands on you, and you HESITATE because you're "uncertain", SOME businessman WON'T hesitate, because he's NOT uncertain, and you lose.. And you might lose EVERYTHING.

I didn't make those rules. They're not left wing rules.. They're not Democrat talking points. They're the way things work.. And, if ANYBODY should know that, it's you guys.

Now, do I doubt that some people are, in fact, mixing their politics with their business, and can't tell WHICH way to go?? No. But, if they DO what you/they SAY they're doing, they'll LOSE... Commerce waits for no man..

You KNOW that to be true, too, if you could only get your politics out of the way...

Excon

Businesses are reacting the way they are because the policies of the government really does affect their short and long term planning. That is just a fact. There are too many surveys ;too many prominent business owners ,too many economists supporting what I say to make me believe they are all irrational or making political points that would hurt their businesses.
I agree that supply and demand and a customer base drive business. Perhaps it is the government policies that are affecting business on the demand side . But I doubt it . Consumer confidence in the Commerce Dept report last week was good ;especially for durable goods ( automobiles, refrigerators, etc.), which saw growth at 8.5 percent. But business investment remained weak, with fixed investments (buildings and equipment,) declining 1.3 percent after climbing 3.6 percent in the second quarter. How do you explain that ? If the demand is on the increase then why are your compadres in the business world NOT investing ? Don't be surprised if the unemployment report Friday corrects upward from the last report .

Hey reality check here, you are going through the greatest depression since the great depression. Don't you realise we have one of these about every century and every time they are caused by capitalist greed. That is how the capitalist system you love so much works, boom and bust. Now you want to berate someone because he hasn't solved this. Hasn't thrown enough money at it. George W Bush couldn't solve it, he caused it. Ronald Reagan couldn't solve it and no little black boy from Chigago can solve it either. You can reduce tax to nothing or increase it 100%, it won't make any difference, because when you have no money you don't pay tax. What it takes is what you don't have; consensus

Hello again, tom:


the policies of the government really does affect their short and long term planning. That is just a fact. You make my point for me. What you miss, is that it's ALWAYS been that way. I've been in business for over 40 years, and I've never been certain about anything.. There's ALWAYS been some politician, or some bureaucrat messing around with my business. ALWAYS!! If I waited for certainty, I would NEVER have gone into business..

Therefore, given that THESE times are NO different than ANY time in my memory, the accusation that Obama is causing "uncertainty" IS absolutely a Republican talking point.

Excon

I am not a business man .I work for business men and I know that they do not ignore regulatory requirements and tax policies. It makes a huge difference in the business models they follow;where they locate ,if and when they hire ;and even if they stay in the industry. Currently there are many in my industry that are cashing in their chips and finding other things to do with their money . They have no plan to spend the money necessary tocomply with new regulations currently being implemented and enforced ;and future regulations being considered. You say they have no impact ;you are wrong . Maybe the industry consolidates into fewer hands (too big to fail) . But what it means is less opportunity to compete.

Sandy is about to slam . Hopefully I'll have power for a few more hours. If not ;catch y'all later

Hello again, tom:


You say they have no impact ;you are wrong .I didn't say they don't have impact.. I said I ADJUST for the impact. But, when my market is talking to me, and I'm VERY close to it, whatever machinations are going on in the heads of my fearless leaders has NOTHING to do with my decision to address my customers needs.

Excon

PS> Batten down the hatches, and hang tight..

Dude, all I can say is look around, it ain't happening. I know you're averse to evidence, but look around.

Hello Steve:

What does a business man look like who's keeping his money on the sidelines?? I don't know what I'm supposed to see.

excon

He probably looks like someone doing one-stop shopping for taxpayer dollars at Obama's new Dept. of Business. Or Jon Corzine.

Hello Steve:

What does a business man look like who's keeping his money on the sidelines??? I dunno what I'm supposed to see.

excon

You know what they look like. Im sure you played monopoly before. Just look for MrMoneybags. Yes that is his official name. :)

It's easy, they look like someone in last year's suit and a two year old car

The American business model only works in China or India where there are more customers, and cheap labor,and no rules or regulations. That's because it's a third world business mentality.

They guys that always cause the business down turns never pay for getting it turned around and uncertainty is but a smokescreen to be greedy and NOT participate in rebuilding. Profits over people, fast, quick, and easy. No risk,high reward.

No risk,high reward.

And yet Dodd-Frank allows the "too big to fail" banks to keep growing bigger without fear of failure.

That's because republican won't allow regulations to be written. There you go, blaming democrats for your own agenda, screw ups, and shenanigans.

That's because republican won't allow regulations to be written. There you go, blaming democrats for your own agenda, screw ups, and shenanigans.

I cite a regulation named after two Democrats and loved by Obama that not only makes the problem you b*tch about every day worse but screws the taxpayers in the process and you blame us? LOL, too funny.

Your facts about Dodd Frank are in error. Seriously in error, as I have posted here

Ask Me Help Desk - View Single Post - Drug war (I know. You're tired of it. So am I.) (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/3310897-post60.html)

Dodd-Frank, allegedly a consumer protection law, empowers unelected bureaucrats to institutionalize bailouts and prop up financial institutions they determine are “too big to fail”.It
Represents an unprecedented power grab which tramples on the notions of separation of powers and due process and yes, is injecting instability in the market which will only lead to future economic problems .
Under this law ,the Director of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB),and the Sec Treasury are granted unprecedented and unlimitted power to create rules that will dictate credit allocation.This will directly impact who gets a business loan .The CFPB boss can exercise that power without any oversight by Congress ,the President OR the COURTS as the law is written.
In fact ,the CFPB boss will be the czar of czars being almost immune from replacement ,and may only be removed for neglect or malfeasance in office. Congress can't even hold the power of the purse over the agency . The CFPB's $500 million budget comes entirely from the Federal Reserve's surplus, out of funds that would otherwise be returned to the Treasury Department and ultimately to the taxpayer.

The Financial Stability Oversight Council(FSOC) was created in the Dodd-Frank law .Chaired by the Sec Treasury;it is the sole determiner in deciding which businesses are 'too big to fail ' ("systemically important"). Yes they will face even more burdersome regulations that may make failure inevidible ;but they will also ,by the determination of that Council ,jump to the top of the list of future taxpayer bailouts (and there will be ;the die has already been cast) . This will give these favored businesses unfair advantage over their competitors .
Yes ,Dodd -Frank institutionalizes taxpayer bailouts . It gives the Sec Treasury the power to put a financial institution into an FDIC receivership if he determines the company is in danger of default. and if he feels that the default would hurt the economy. To fund this the FDIC is given authority to tax these companies without Congressional approval .This violates the Separation of powers by restricting judicial review to if the Sec Treasury's determinations are arbitrary and not if he followed the law... AND the court MUST make a determination within 24 hours ,or the Sec.decision stands .
Dodd -Frank is an unconstitutional law that must be over turned in court and/or repealed in the next session of Congress. Already 10s of thousands of new code is being written into law to comply with the law. Nobody doing business this year either knows what tax structure they will operate in next year ;2 months away... or what the law they operate under will be ;or if they will get a business loan .
Consider this ,CFPB Director Richard Cordray told Congress that he believes it is "probably not useful" to try to define in advance what an "abusive" lending practice is. Instead, he intends to use his enforcement powers to retroactively punish lenders based on his view of the "facts and circumstances" of each case. Why would a lender issue a loan if the government can retroactively determine that the lending practice used is illegal ? You remember Cordray right ? He was the czar the President appointed in the recess that wasn't really a recess... another violation of the Constitutional powers of the Senate.

When Huffpo says it's a problem that should open your eyes, but remain in denial.

QUOTE by tomder55;
Dodd-Frank, allegedly a consumer protection law, empowers unelected bureaucrats to institutionalize bailouts and prop up financial institutions they determine are “too big to fail”

A right wing characterization that is both inacurate and eroneous. Contrary to the true facts both in legislation and implementation.


It represents an unprecedented power grab which tramples on the notions of separation of powers and due process and yes, is injecting instability in the market which will only lead to future economic problems .

Again you have talking points from the right with no facts and seems like you fail to recognize it would take years if not decades to unwind a to big to fail bank, and would rather have things the way they are, and does exactly what you say it doesn't put in place a PROCESS to insulate the rest of us from the greedy criminals who would wreck the economy and get PAID for it!

Doing nothing would be worse I think. MUCH worse.



Under this law ,the Director of the Consumer Protection Bureau ,and the Sec Treasury are granted unprecedented and unlimitted power to create rules that will dictate credit allocation.This will directly impact who gets a business loan .The CPB boss can exercise that power without any oversight by Congress ,the President OR the COURTS as the law is written.

Read he fine print, it's the job of CONGRESS to okay the rules which the republicans and their corporate masters are fighting tooth, and nail. More DUE PROCESS that your side ignores.



The Financial Stability Oversight Council was created in the Dodd-Frank law .Chaired by the Sec Treasury;it is the sole determiner in deciding which businesses are 'too big to fail ' . Yes they will face even more burdersome regulations that may make failure inevidible ;but they will also ,by the determination of that Council ,jump to the top of the list of future taxpayer bailouts (and there will be ;the die has already been cast) . This will give these favored businesses unfair advantage over their competitors .

The determining factor for some regulations will be assets over 50 billion. In case of failure the creditors will be paid, the banks won't be. Read the provided links and cross check. It eliminates a lot of uncertainty for the rest of us and banks too!



Yes ,Dodd -Frank institutionalizes taxpayer bailouts . It gives the Sec Treasury the power to put a financial institution into an FDIC receivership if he determines the company is in danger of default. and if he feels that the default would hurt the economy. To fund this the FDIC is given authority to tax these companies without Congressional approval .This violates the Separation of powers by restricting judicial review to if the Sec Treasury's determinations are arbitrary and not if he followed the law... AND the court MUST make a determination within 24 hours ,or the Sec.decision stands .

You have to show me that one, because it was congress that approved the powers of the regulatory agencys to take proper actions. You can always go to court when you don'tlike something,that's the American way.



Dodd -Frank is an unconstitutional law that must be over turned in court and/or repealed in the next session of Congress. Already 10s of thousands of new code is being written into law to comply with the law. Nobody doing business this year either knows what tax structure they will operate in next year ;2 months away... or what the law they operate under will be

I guess you have a better way of breaking up the banks and stopping their greed from screwing the global economy?

Or do you support letting them do as they please, and screwing the global economy up?? Okay can't blame them for waiting for the new laws and the old ones to be repealed.



When Huffpo says it's a problem that should open your eyes, but remain in denial.


I think Huffpo wants a stricter law not a softer one.

I think Huffpo wants a stricter law not a softer one.

And that's what you get by letting the very Democrats that helped create the mess, that denied there was a problem, regulate it.

Posted twice

I got that info from the law suit challenging the constitutionality of Dodd-Frank .


The Treasury is authorized to petition the United States District Court for the District of Columbia to seize banks and any non-bank financial institution that the government thinks is in danger of default and could, in turn, pose a risk to U.S. financial stability. If the entity does not acquiesce or consent to the seizure, the petition proceedings are secret, with a federal district judge given 24 hours to decide “on a strictly confidential basis”whether to allow receivership.

Law Firm Of Pepper Hamilton LLP | Constitutionality Analysis of Certain of the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act (http://www.pepperlaw.com/publications_article.aspx?articlekey=2038)

Thanks Tom, this lawyer makes some compelling arguments, and I would have to have more time to digest it further, but reject the notion that a complex problems won't have complex solutions.

And I still challenge your adjectives.

A "solution" that compounds the problem is no solution.

Then you keep working until you solve he problem with a good solution. Got a better idea, or just complaining about the ideas that have been presented?

Then you keep working until you solve he problem with a good solution. Got a better idea, or just complaining about the ideas that have been presented? Hello tell I'm just trying out my new speaker thing I am dictating this message and I want to see if it will work