View Full Version : Dead wires to outlet...
NJdiy
Sep 10, 2012, 10:03 AM
I have 3 light switches and one outlet in a single box in my bathroom. The outlet also sends wires/power to an second outlet on the other side of the bathroom vanity. They are not GFI (installed long ago). Two days ago the outlet was working. Yesterday the outlet was dead. In fact, both outlets were dead. The switches (vanity light, fan and heat lamp) all work properly.
I removed switch plate. There are two wires (each have black and white) connected to outlet. I assume one is power in and other power to second outlet. Used tester, no power at all. But the light switches have power and see to be getting their power from a different hot wire. The entire bathroom (and master bedroom) are on the same circuit breaker.
What could cause a wire to just go dead? Nothing blew a fuse or smoked. Can I just pigtail the outlet to the power for the switches?
Help is appreciated.
hkstroud
Sep 10, 2012, 08:14 PM
First question.
Are the wires to the outlet connect to the screws on the side of the outlet or are they plugged into the holes in the back?
Second,
Remove the other outlet and describe the wiring there.
Third,
A wire is a wire. A cable is two or more wires in an outer covering. Please use the correct term so I know what you mean.
Like this "I have a 2-wire cable". Or "I have a 3-wire cable".
NJdiy
Sep 10, 2012, 08:31 PM
The wires were plugged into the holes in the back of the outlet, not attached to the screws. I got no power reading when I tested the outlet and no power from the wires after pulling them out of the holes in the outlet. Thanks.
hkstroud
Sep 10, 2012, 09:01 PM
What about the other outlet? You are assuming that power comes to this outlet first and then goes to the second outlet. That may not be the case. If power goes to the other outlet first, the problem is probably there. Put all wires under screws. The quick connect holes are known to cause bad connection after a period.
NJdiy
Sep 10, 2012, 09:16 PM
So here is what I see...
The outlet that's in the wall box with the three single pole switches had two cables (ground, white and black) attached to the holes in the back. I assumed (maybe wrongly) that one cable was the power and the other went to the single outlet on the other side of the vanity. The single outlet has one cable that was attached to the holes and one that feed up to a vanity mirror mounted on the wall about a foot above the outlet (installed by someone a few years ago). Thus my assumption that the power started from the other outlet (in the bo with the switches). The switches all seem to be connected to the same power cable with wire caps and the wires attached to the screws on the sides of the switches.
hkstroud
Sep 10, 2012, 10:33 PM
So the outlet in the box by it self (which we will call the second outlet) has two 2-wire cables. You are reasonably certain that one cable goes to the vanity mirror light. These wires are both connected to the outlet using the quick connect holes.
Does the vanity light work?
In the first outlet box (with the three switches), are the switches connect in any way to the outlet? If so describe the wiring there.
NJdiy
Sep 11, 2012, 03:26 AM
The vanity mirror is getting no power now. The outlet with the three switches is no connected to the switches in any way.
hkstroud
Sep 11, 2012, 05:51 AM
OK, your assumption that power is coming from an undetermined source (probably another outlet) to the first outlet, then to the second outlet, and then to the vanity mirror, must be correct.
The problem probably originates from the use of the quick connect holes. The poor connection can be in either the hot (black) or the neutral (white) wire.
First, if you have another bathroom near by, check it for a tripped GFI outlet. Then check all other GFI outlets you may have.
If you do not find a tripped GFI, turn off the breaker. Pull all outlets and all switches for lights that do not work with the breaker off. Remove from quick connect holes and put under screws.
You could start with the outlet closest to the bathroom, as it is the most likely, but you really should do them all. Sooner or later another one will develop the same problem.
NJdiy
Sep 11, 2012, 06:17 AM
So you're saying there are likely other outlets powered along this cable and a receptical before the 1st bathroom outlet could be fried causing problems down the line? As a first step before pulling all the outlets, can I use a tester to see of I can find a dead outlet? I am pretty sure the breaker just controls the master bedroom and bath only.
hkstroud
Sep 11, 2012, 06:47 AM
Yes, the location of the poor connection is at source of power to the bath outlet. Not saying outlet is fried, probably just a poor connection at the source outlet.
The source outlet may be working or it may not. At the source outlet, you have power coming in and power going out to the bath outlet. If the poor connection is in one of the wires coming in that outlet will not work. If the poor connection is in the wires going out, the source outlet will work but the next (bath) outlet will not.
For quite some time the NEC code has required that bath outlets be on a GFI circuit. It was common wiring practice to run a circuit to one bath, put in a GFI outlet, then go to the next bath. That required only one GFI outlet for both baths.
The current NEC requires that the baths have a separate circuit. That circuit can only serve that bathroom or another bathroom. That was not always the case. The bathroom outlets circuit could have other things on it in the past.
If you can find an outlet in the bedroom that is not working, that is probably the source. However, if you don't find a non working outlet, that doesn't mean the source is not in the bedroom.
Moving the wires from the quick connect holes to the screws is not wasted effort, even if it doesn't correct this problem. Sooner or later they will come back to haunt you.
The bathroom lights may be on the bedroom circuit, that is not the same as the bathroom outlets.
NJdiy
Sep 11, 2012, 07:17 AM
You have been so helpful. Thanks, hk. I'll try all this and let you know the outcome. As an aside this condo was built 28 years ago. There are no GFI outlets anywhere. The #1 bathroom outlet is right next to the sink too. I may just change it to GFI anyway. Thanks and I'll keep you posted!
hkstroud
Sep 11, 2012, 07:36 AM
Yes, please do let me know what you find. And yes please do change the outlets to GFI. A GFI outlet at the first location can be wired to provide GFI protection to the second even the second outlet is a regular outlet. Outlets need to be GFI, lights do not.