Has anyone noticed that once again the failed economies of Europe are again threatening the world economic stability? What I cannot understand is why Greece cannot be allowed to fail. Time and time again we have seen these basket case economies fall over. Usually it is not a developed country, however when sitting in the sun is your daily pastime, someone has to pay and it should not be the rest of Europe who own that pile of ancient ruins at the end of the Ahean absolutely nothing, and nor should it be the other nations of the world.

In the case of Greece it conned its way into the EU and should be chucked out on its ear so that the people within the nation take the pain and inflict as much as possible of it on their lacklustre politicians and bureaucrats. Let the European banks who made a bad investment take the pain. Every time the name of Greece is mentioned the financial markets chuck a woobbly and reduce the value of stocks, not because they necessarily have any investment in Greece but because of uncertainty. So I say let's have certainty, not money in Greece, extend the loans or write them off forclose and take over the place and sell it up

Now the Spanish people are indignant that the pain of their stupid decision making should fall on them. More tough love needed here. Make yourselves competitive, there is no money to be earned marching in the streets

Europe doesn't have the courage to restructure their finances the greedy b@stards.

Tal don't start talking about greedy b@stards, please remember who caused the GFC and started the global meltdown also I note a similar reluctance in your own country to swallowing the medicine needed to address financial issues, So perhaps the yankee could show us their courage and reform their financial position, after all, 15 trillion, a mere baggatelle for such a strong economy.

What I say is reform is needed everywhere and start with those greedy b#stards the CEO who take home millions for doing nothing there should be ceilings put on corporate largesse and compensation schemes and one of the best ways to do it is a super tax on all earnings above a million dollars and an effective capital gains tax

You think reforming corporate salaries will be anything more than spit in the ocean ? You know as well as I do that the restructure is needed in the budgets of nations ;including serious reforms of entitlements . Greece ;and France revolted against politicians who had the courage to suggest what really was needed was haircuts. I expect nothing less from the spoiled masses here.

LOL, Tom, but that let the rich get richer by rigging the game and sucking wealth out of the economy will not go over well with REAL working people who have never tasted silver before in their lives. Haven't you seen the BS about not putting the debts on the backs of our children?

Trust me guy, people like Romney's children will never be burdened by any debt. But YOURS will, and are NOW. I go with Clete, raise the taxes, cut back bonuses, and lets stop letting the business cycle dictate whether we can buy stuff.

When they make Germany toe the line, Greece can recover, because AUSTERITY among the many doesn't work. That's the lesson of the European Union, whether you like it or not. But conservatives who accuse the current president of making us like Europe, are the ones pushing the policies of Europe, to hide the fact that a few silver spoons come before the many real people.

Good luck Mitt, you will need it, you selective memory bully.

When they make Germany toe the line, Greece can recover, Germany has been the only resposible nation in the EU . And what happened ? Merkel's party got hammered this weekend.

Good luck Mitt, you will need it, you selective memory bully. lol ,Did you mention that because I talked of taking a HAIRCUT ?
The Compost can't prove their claim. The "victims " relatives never heard the story . Maybe we have some Dan Rather journalism going on here.

So I guess his cronies regretting their actions was made up?

Day After Obama Marriage Equality Move, Story Emerges of Teenage Romney Tackling, Cutting Hair of Boy He Believed to Be Gay | AlterNet (http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/927754/day_after_obama_marriage_equality_move%2C_story_em erges_of_teenage_romney_tackling%2C_cutting_hair_o f_boy_he_believed_to_be_gay/)


The Post reports that five former classmates of Romney's recalled the incident independently. The former classmates, who span the political spectrum, called the act "vicious," "senseless," and "idiotic," among other things.

He may not of told the family, but the bullies all remembered except the ring leader. So who says the POST couldn't back up the story?

Let them... this story is going nowhere. One of the Compost witnesses has said he really did not see the incident.
Gee what else are they going to find out about Romney.. that he was an admitted high school coke and pot head ? That he associated with domestic terrorists ?


I wonder if the Compost will do a 5,000 word essay on this story : snopes.com: Romney Business Partner Daughter Search (http://www.snopes.com/politics/romney/search.asp)


Or this one :

The Heroic Romney Rescue That, For Some Reason, The Campaign Doesn't Talk About (http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski/the-heroic-romney-rescue-that-for-some-reason-th)

Back on track fellows no hijacking the thread, My Question to Tom is why should the little people take the pain, you say the entitlements are too big but you don't live in their economy, you don't know the price of anything, Europe can be a very expensive place and it is the rich, not the poor who have made Greece a basket case avoiding taxes and hiding their wealth. The IMF comes along and says take a haircut or is that a headcut when it should be saying what will it take to grow your economy. You start with putting ceilings in place not cutting pensions. You start with finding a way of attracting industry and revitalising the existing ones,

it is the rich, not the poor who have made Greece a basket case avoiding taxes and hiding their wealth.

Same here, and like here, they want the poor to pay for the rich.

Nonsense. What de Toqueville said of America is the same for Europe.
"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. "Alexis de Tocqueville

Further ,the politicians consistently lied about the economic health of the nation to gain entrance into the EU . You can't tell me that they have managed it well when the debt is 120% of GDP. You can squeeze the rich until they have no money left and that will not change the fact that they over commit to reckless government spending.
One in three Greeks works for the government. Government employees enjoy higher wages, more benefits, and earlier retirements than private-sector employees. Civil servants can retire after 35 years of service at 80 percent of their highest salary and enjoy lavish health plans, vacations, and other perks.Some civil servants receive bonuses for using computers, others get a bonus just for arriving at work on time. All civil servants receive 14 yearly checks for twelve months’ work. And it’s almost impossible to fire them — even for the grossest incompetence. The retirement age is 60 .

The PIGS, incurred massive debt as the result of their “cradle to grave” social programs.The Greeks and France have now chosen suicide over solvency. Good luck to them.

Just can't admit that your heroes ROBBED us can you?

nonsense. What de Toqueville said of America is the same for Europe.
"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. "Alexis de Tocqueville

Further ,the politicians consistently lied about the economic health of the nation to gain entrance into the EU . You can't tell me that they have managed it well when the debt is 120% of GDP. You can squeeze the rich until they have no money left and that will not change the fact that they over commit to reckless government spending.
One in three Greeks works for the government. Government employees enjoy higher wages, more benefits, and earlier retirements than private-sector employees. Civil servants can retire after 35 years of service at 80 percent of their highest salary and enjoy lavish health plans, vacations, and other perks.Some civil servants receive bonuses for using computers, others get a bonus just for arriving at work on time. All civil servants receive 14 yearly checks for twelve months’ work. And it’s almost impossible to fire them — even for the grossest incompetence. The retirement age is 60 .

The PIGS, incurred massive debt as the result of their “cradle to grave” social programs.The Greeks and France have now chosen suicide over solvency. Good luck to them.

Never seen a rich man squeezed until he has no money left, you would have me believe they bleed blood like the rest of us. You need to understand the statistics a little better, Greece is a small country and so relies on state owned enterprises more, thus it has more government employees. My own nation did not begin a privatisation program until its population reached 20 million. Nothing wrong with a retirement age of 60 just so long as the state doesn't have to pay for it, better than filling the place with loafers and that retirement age may the practical way of attrition rather than extending the payroll another five years. So Greece operates on a four week cycle with a bonus paid for leave. Greece is a hot country the workforce may wearout earlier than in the cold climes you are used to and be incapable of manual labour in old age. It seems it is almost impossible to fire the politicians and bureaucrats who run your nation also, have you noted how long some of these people have walked the corridors of power? It appears you have never heard of people being paid skill bonuses or more money after upgrading their skills. Sometimes Tom I think you just run off at the mouth, but then your political persuasion makes you that way

You should not make comparisons with your standards some of these places faced devistation in WWII others weren't the recipricants of your generous war reparations like Germany was

Greece is a small country and so relies on state owned enterprises more

The size of the nation isn't the issue .It is the socialized policies.

Nothing wrong with a retirement age of 60 just so long as the state doesn't have to pay for it, Indeed it does ;although in reality it's more like they pick the pockets of productive workers because the promised pensions were never funded.

It seems it is almost impossible to fire the politicians and bureaucrats who run your nation also, have you noted how long some of these people have walked the corridors of power? I've noted that a number of times and have given the right prescription to that issue... term limits.


You should not make comparisons with your standards some of these places faced devistation in WWII others weren't the recipricants of your generous war reparations like Germany was
You're joking right ? Now who's running from the mouth ? The Marshall Plan aid was divided amongst the participant states on a roughly per capita basis so the Greek share was per capita about the same as other nations . In fact ;because of the threat of communist takeover ,Greece and Turkey were the 1st nations addressed by the plan. On March 12, 1947, President Truman addressed Congress and asked for $400 million in economic aid for Greece and Turkey. The real problem is that Greece never took the steps to become a modern economy ;but at the same time did the nanny state game as if it's economy was loaded with cash.

nonsense. What de Toqueville said of America is the same for Europe.
"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. "Alexis de Tocqueville



Hi Tom,

How about the wealthy discovering they can bribe congress to increase their largeness from the public purse.

How about we cut back on this rather than, Oh... say, Meals on Wheels?

Shades of John Saul in his 1995 CBC Massey Lectures. Like de Tocqueville, Saul must be able to see into the future.

The big social programs will take some time to get rid of, but we can always start with the small ones.

As Tal's Meals on Wheels clip (different thread) showed it is not good to look too callous, but given the economic circumstances callousness might be of political advantage.

"We have done wrong. We have had it easy. We have indebted ourselves. Now we must pay. We must don hair shirts. We must impose suffering upon ourselves. Of course the suffering will fall on others, but that is beside the point."

As Tal's Meals on Wheels clip (different thread) showed it is not good to look too callous,

Yeah it is the appearance that is the problem..

Me ;I would've cut food aid to the NORKs instead.

MOW is largely a privately funded charity . You can find hundreds of examples where a reduction in the rate of spending increases is called a draconian cut .Sooner or later either the budget is balanced or much more draconian steps are required. Much better to borrow Chinese money that our grandkids will repay I guess .

yeah it is the appearance that is the problem ..

Me ;I would've cut food aid to the NORKs instead.

MOW is largely a privately funded charity . You can find hundreds of examples where a reduction in the rate of spending increases is called a draconian cut .Sooner or later either the budget is balanced or much more draconian steps are required. Much better to borrow Chinese money that our grandkids will repay I guess .


Tom, there is no need for us to don the hair shirts. We know which end of society that debt is going to fall.

T

You're joking right ? Now who's running from the mouth ? The Marshall Plan aid was divided amongst the participant states on a roughly per capita basis so the Greek share was per capita about the same as other nations . In fact ;because of the threat of communist takeover ,Greece and Turkey were the 1st nations addressed by the plan. On March 12, 1947, President Truman addressed Congress and asked for $400 million in economic aid for Greece and Turkey. The real problem is that Greece never took the steps to become a modern economy ;but at the same time did the nanny state game as if it's economy was loaded with cash.

No Tom it is you who is joking, Greece suffered a communist inspired civil war, no opportunity for nation building when you are fighting the US proxy war. Look, not everyone wanted to be an american clone. A wrong decision perhaps but you easily dismiss the real issues, per capita payments don't address the real needs when you have a small population so your largesse didn't offer a real solution. Large numbers of greeks migrated after WWII and it is happening again. The young and skilled leave and you are left with the old, the weak and the unskilled. Your solution is to give such people subsistence level life style and say they didn't develop.

Germany has a higher median age (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_median_age) than Greece. I guess their "old, the weak and the unskilled" are more productive than those of Greece.

You have to work with what you got. Greece will never be the economic powerhouse that the Northern European nations are . You talk of climate ;but I think it has more to do with geography . They don't have the river transportation system to become a major industrial nation.
However that is not the issue. The issue is that they pretend to be one that with over flowing coffers can promise the masses everything . That's fine so well as someone else pays for it .(the typical socialist model.. make someone's else pay for the largess... in this case they want the German money but not the conditions that the Germans would put on it. ) .

However that is not the issue. The issue is that they pretend to be one that with over flowing coffers can promise the masses everything . That's fine so well as someone else pays for it .(the typical socialist model ..make someones else pay for the largess .....in this case they want the German money but not the conditions that the Germans would put on it. ) .

Hi Tom,

Sorry to keep pushing the de Tocqueville thing, but what do you call it when Congress increases the largeness of the wealthy from the public purse?

Tut

I call it an inside job!

The de Toqueville quote covers that as well. Crony socialism (misnamed crony capitalism) often favors the rich. Your socialist utopias all have their privileged cadres .

Tell me where my position advances that proposition. I have been consistent for a flat tax and elimination of tax breaks for all. Your progressive tax solutions are in fact regressive . Higher tax rates in Greece means capital flight . Gee ;what a surprise!

the de Toqueville quote covers that as well. Crony socialism (misnamed crony capitalism) often favors the rich. Your socialist utopias all have their privileged cadres .



I can cover than one easily myself.

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet"




Tell me where my position advances that proposition. I have been consistent for a flat tax and elimination of tax breaks for all. Your progressive tax solutions are in fact regressive . Higher tax rates in Greece means capital flight . Gee ;what a suprise !!

I don't recall saying your tax position wasn't consistent.


Tut

Let's see, the president just had a fundraiser at the 7400 square foot home of George Clooney, with a guest list of extremely wealthy celebrities that paid $40,000 a plate to attend... all to advance the causes of the 99 percent I'm sure.

What's he supposed to do when the 1% candidate has unlimited resources and a few very rich super pacs behind him?

For a fact we know that Romney is NOT running for the 99%! But you already knew that!

The President in 2008 rejected public financing because he could easily exceed the public financing limits of McCain Feingold. He's full of shiite when it comes to this issue. His biggest support base in 2008 was Wall Street .

You mean the guy who raised almost a billion dollars the first time around, who was backed by super billionaire George Soros and friends, attacks Wall Street while holding a hand out and attacks Romney for Bain while raising millions at an event held by the COO of a private equity firm (http://www.businessinsider.com/obamas-huge-double-standard-on-private-equity-was-exposed-at-2-million-fundraiser-last-night-2012-5)?

Cut the nonsense Tal, the left IS the "1 percent."

Sounds good on paper Steve, but most of the big money, is going for Mitt, to increase their already lavish tax cuts, and deductions that YOU will pay for. Me too! So will our kids. And grand kids. You know the ones who won't be able to better themselves through education, and won't be able to feed themselves because those rich job creators are doing there money making through cheap overseas labor.

You know the ones I mean, who got bailed out and have yet to return the favor. If you stop looking over your shoulder at Ex nipping at your heals you wouldn't make statements like "the left is the 1%!

You would instead insist that those ungrateful b@st@rds use their tax cuts, record profits, and deductions right here in the place that has helped them get rich, beyond rational dreams.

Come on country boy, you know better than letting the fox guard the hen house, so why let the wolf shepherd the sheep, or cattle in the case of the Great Republic of Texas. All you get are some FAT wolves and no cattle.

Why do you righties want us to be like Europe, when America is the best looking place in the world?

Sounds good on paper Steve, but most of the big money, is going for Mitt, to increase their already lavish tax cuts, and deductions that YOU will pay for. Me too! So will our kids. And grand kids. You know the ones who won't be able to better themselves thru education, and won't be able to feed themselves because those rich job creators are doing there money making thru cheap overseas labor.

You know the ones I mean, who got bailed out and have yet to return the favor. If you stop looking over your shoulder at Ex nipping at your heals you wouldn't make statements like "the left is the 1%!

You would instead insist that those ungrateful b@st@rds use their tax cuts, record profits, and deductions right here in the place that has helped them get rich, beyond rational dreams.

Come on country boy, you know better than letting the fox guard the hen house, so why let the wolf shepherd the sheep, or cattle in the case of the Great Republic of Texas. All you get are some FAT wolves and no cattle.

Why do you righties want us to be like Europe, when America is the best looking place in the world?

Brother, got anything besides clichés to argue with?

Sorry partner, you don't get to dismiss me out of hand. That's called denial. I understand, but I ain't going for it. You can't keep claiming federal government is the cause of all your ills, nor claim that corporations are your salvation without putting out facts.

Fact is that we have been letting corporations subvert the cause of the ordinary citizen for far to long without requiring they return the love as has been given them. The common sense business model we all grew under has changed into a vacuum cleaner, and we the people have left OUR government at there mercy.

Now make your credible argument why during the greatest economic downturn your heroes the private sector have made money hand over fist, and not contributed to the growth of a decimated public sector!

Tell me why the banks that deal with you, have floundered, and the banks that deal with the 1% have grown? Tell me if you even know about leveraging, and what an equity firm is, and does.

Tell me how you hate one president and would back a want to be that has promised more of the same extraction that IS going on now. Tell me how that helps YOU!! Go grab your coffee and lets have at it.

Anybody but Obama is no excuse to turn a blind eye to reality, and you will not dismiss those facts because you don't want to see it. So tell me how George Bush on steroids helps YOU!

I say it doesn't, and by being willing to get screwed, the rest of us will get screwed with you.

And my apologizes to Clete, as this is about Europe, not the United States, but the similarities are stark as letting Greece, Portugal, Spain, and Italy flounder and fail, is like us letting a state fail.

Yes it a very apt comparison indeed. Kalifornia just announced their budget deficit is double what they anticipated . They have been irresponsibly giving goodies to the public sector as long as any state in the Union and that has resulted into an unsustainable budget.
Now they tried to screw the companies that provide meaningful employment to the private sector until the business environment became intollerable and one by one ,private business left the state to business friendly confines of... TEXAS !

Now is it your argument that you ;a resident of Texas that you should pay for the disastrous policies of Jerry Brown and his ship of fools ?
Germany willingly is bailing out the greeks ;and they are being made to look like villians because they want preconditions to the bailout .

Tell me if you even know about leveraging, and what an equity firm is, and does

From clichés to insulting my intelligence. Nice.


And my apologizes to Clete, as this is about Europe, not the United States, but the similarities are stark as letting Greece, Portugal, Spain, and Italy flounder and fail, is like us letting a state fail.

Fact is, no one can sustain the type of cradle to grave entitlements the Greek people have come to expect. No national temper tantrum is going to change that, and you want us to go down the same road. Sorry, I haven't worked most of my life to coddle the "99 percent" that think they're entitled to everything free of charge. They can get off their a$$es and take care of themselves.

I mean Geez, the fact that Wal-Mart makes a gazillion dollars didn't prevent me from taking care of me and my family. In fact, them making money is the kind of thing that keeps people in jobs, unlike Obama picking winners and losers that just turn out to be losers. How many jobs is Solyndra creating?

Speech, Tal, you can't just let them sink otherwise what is the reason they should be part of your United States. Ok bad decision making has existed there because they haven't been fiscally responsible but they are not like Greece, they have had a vivrant economy, its just not working as well as it once did. Social programs take a long while to unwind, structural adjustment takes time, you can't just flick a switch because there are two sides to the equation, and revenue is as important as spending

How many jobs is Solyndra creating?


Forget that . Obama touts his takeover of the auto industry as a success. How many lost their jobs there ? The US lost $14 billion and the auto industry lost 400, 000 jobs .That is Obama's definition of successs !

You guys are persistent, if not factual or accurate, and you fail to even acknowledge the great almost depression of our time. You fail to recognize that its your side pulling against the recovery that slows the progress, nor ignore the end game of extracting even more money through republican policies. Mainly, increasing the Bush tax cuts that fueled this robbery in the first place.

And maybe its your intention Tom, to point out the job losses by the auto industry, without acknowledging what would have been no auto industry and millions of job losses, and again you totally miss the Solyndra debate and ignore the lawsuit by other green energy companies against Chinese business practices.

Come on guys, surely you can see the underlying cause and effects of the global transitional economy, that has us all in flux, and fearful. Instead of fear, there must be a pragmatic nuanced very careful approach to restoring and reforming a system that benefits us all, and that REQUIRES a fully informed and knowledgeable electorate to achieve that goal.

I mean what good does it do any country to have most of the population poor, dumb, and consigned to a sweat shop that serves only the elites, or rich? Why do we have to lose a generation or so of our children because of our own fears of a rapidly changing world?

Sorry if you think I insulted you intelligence, not my intentions. But please look a bit deeper than Fox News for all the facts. In today's age, there is no excuse not to know what they don't tell you. So don't insult mine with a lack of facts.

Did you know that stopping the filibuster in the Senate would result in 1.5 million new jobs? Bet you don't, nor do you care.

Tal you may as well preach to the wind as try to change Tom's ideas. He is stuck in a rut, he thinks he is still in the twentieth century when america ruled the world. Capitalism is ending and change will be painfull, there is no panocea, no great recovery. So twenty years ago we learned the hard way that what was needed was consensus and the recession of the nineties was hard on us as hard as this recession is on you. Our industries disappeared overnight. But today we have an economy that is the envy of the developed world and whether we like it or not it was consensus politics that enabled it to happen. Doing what must be done whether it is ideologically correct or not. We just had something done that would be unthinkable to your politicians we increased taxes on the rich, not directly but by hitting their perks. Politically we couldn't get rid of negative gearing in the property market so the government changed the tax rates so the advantage was largely lost, but not a bleat out of the community who didn't realise what was happening, they were too busy counting their extra money to realise that tomorrow there would be a bigger bill.

You guys are going to learn the hard way too, yesterday is gone, it won't be back. So start building those wind generators you will need them, not out in the desert but next door and they make really useful cell towers too

They are desperate to turn America into an oligarchy, and that has global implications. The 1% know full well that they don't care about the deficit, and have no problem running it even higher and shrink the revenues and social contracts, so it can be privatized by them.

They actually believe that Americans have short memories, and are dumb enough to cut their own throats, and hand them the keys to the kingdom. Maybe some of us are, but not enough, I think, and that's what makes this election so important. Not just nationally, but on a state and local level.

We all know what happened last time they had the keys. It wasn't that long ago and the mess is still being cleaned up, even after they tried to hide the mop, and bucket.

I can cover than one easily myself.

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet"


Tut


Tom, you can call it crony socialism, crony capitalism; call it what you like. In the end there is no distinction. It is what it is. That being politicians on both sides being forced to pay the pipers who put them in power.

There is no crony capitalism or crony socialism, just cronyism.


Tut

You fail to recognize that its your side pulling against the recovery that slows the progress, What I recognize is that just like in the 1930s ;government intervention extended the depression.

And maybe its your intention Tom, to point out the job losses by the auto industry, without acknowledging what would have been no auto industry and millions of job losses, Ford did not become a ward of the government . How is it that they were able to restructure without Uncle Obama taking them over ?

Capitalism is ending and change will be painfull, there is no panocea, no great recovery No sir ;what is proving to be a failure is the paternalistic Bismark state socialist model .

No sir ;what is proving to be a failure is the paternalistic Bismark state socialist model .



Tom, where on earth do you get these ideas? Everything that doesn't conform to the free market model is not necessarily socialism. Bismarck was anti-socialist. If anything he was a pragmatist.

Tut

Again Tom you don't have all the facts,

Government Bailout of Ford GM Chrysler and the Auto Industry (http://useconomy.about.com/od/criticalssues/a/auto_bailout.htm)


Ford requested a $9 billion line-of-credit from the government, and a $5 billion loan from the Energy Department. Ford pledged to accelerate development of both hybrid and battery-powered vehicles, retool plants to increase production of smaller cars, close dealerships, and sell Volvo. Ford is in better shape than GM or Chrysler because it had already mortgaged its assets in 2006 to raise $24.5 billion. Although Ford didn't need, and didn't receive any funds, it also didn't want its competition to get the upper hand thanks to the government bailout.

Tom, where on earth do you get these ideas? Everything that doesn't conform to the free market model is not necessarily socialism. Bismarck was anti-socialist. If anything he was a pragmatist.

Tut

I clearly called his model state socialist.. and it was . It really doesn't matter that he was in fact a monarcist . He instituted his reforms to appease the working class and detract support for the radical socialists. So although he opposed socialism ,his reforms were indeed socialist. By implementing the minimalist view of the socialists he undercut their support . However ;it fed very well into gradualists strategy like the Fabians.
The ball still moves "FORWARD" (note that is the new Obama campaign word ) .It has been the Progressive game plan for a century .

I clearly called his model state socialist ..and it was . It really doesn't matter that he was in fact a monarcist . He instituted his reforms to appease the working class and detract support for the radical socialists. So although he opposed socialism ,his reforms were indeed socialist. By implementing the minimalist view of the socialists he undercut their support . However ;it fed very well into gradualists strategy like the Fabians.
The ball still moves "FORWARD" (note that is the new Obama campaign word ) .It has been the Progressive game plan for a century .



I see, so 100 years of world political history can be summed up by the principle of bivalence (one or the other). One hundred years of economic history leading up to the present day also boils down to Socialism or free market economics. True or not true?

So is it the invisible hand of socialism that is simplifying world events and guiding us towards a socialist end?

Just because someone introduces socialist reforms doesn't necessarily make them a socialist, nor does it make him a conformist of socialist model.

My readings of Bismarck tells me that he was a pragmatist who implemented socialist reforms. After all that is what pragmatists tend to do. But we can ignore pragmatism?


Tut

Always Forward right ? The assumption is that these reforms are good . I do not agree. That 100 years of history has led the world to the brink of collapse . What difference to the socialist if the reforms are radically produced overnight ;or gradually over many decades ?The Marx vision of the end of history is the same... mission accomplished .

"Call it socialism or whatever you like. It is the same to me." (Bismarck)

always Forward right ? The assumption is that these reforms are good . I do not agree. That 100 years of history has led the world to the brink of collapse . What difference to the socialist if the reforms are radically produced overnight ;or gradually over many decades ?The Marx vision of the end of history is the same....mission accomplished .

"Call it socialism or whatever you like. It is the same to me." (Bismarck)

Hi Tom,

Always forward?

We have no choice. In physics the arrow of time points in one direction. It is the same for politics, economics and anything else. We can't go back to the past to save the future. There is no society that has ever achieved this and none ever will. You don't think I long for this possibility? You don't think Plato longed for this possibility?

Like you I don't agree that all reforms are good, but we can only move forward. By holding up an ideal model of economics, society, politics we end up being an ideologue. It is easy to be safe in the knowledge that what is happening in the world doesn't really conform to the ideal and that everything will eventually be realized once it does.

You don't need me to tell you we live in an imperfect world with imperfect systems in. Idealizing a system won't provide the answer.


Tut

P.S.

In relation to your Bismarck quote. The idea of pragmaticism is that it doesn't conform to a model .

Like you I don't agree that all reforms are good, but we can only move forward. By holding up an ideal model of economics, society, politics we end up being an ideologue. It is easy to be safe in the knowledge that what is happening in the world doesn't really conform to the ideal and that everything will eventually be realized once it does.

You don't need me to tell you we live in an imperfect world with imperfect systems in. By idealizing a system won't provide the answer.


I'm rejecting the utopian vision of those who move society ever FORWARD . I am not the one idealizing. I'm the one who is warning that as we centralize and consolidate power in the hands of the Leviathan we lose too much ;and that it is a system doomed to failure .

We can't go back to the past to save the future.
Why not ? I think in many cases that is exactly what's needed . I happen to think that any law created should have an expiration date where it should be reviewed and only reinstituted if periodically debated and again approved . How about showing some positive results ? Does a program work ? Shouldn't we know it works before it becomes permanently institutionalized?

Sorry if you think I insulted you intelligence, not my intentions. But please look a bit deeper than Fox News for all the facts. In today's age, there is no excuse not to know what they don't tell you. So don't insult mine with a lack of facts.

Nice, an apology followed by another attempt at an insult, lol. You want facts? I've always got facts but I don't think you're interested in facts, I think you're only interested in ideological rhetoric.

So far in this thread I've sourced Wikipedia (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/pigs-parlour-660047-2.html#post3118057) and Business Insider (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/pigs-parlour-660047-3.html#post3118199).

So far this week I've also sourced ABC/Yahoo (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/gay-marriage-not-human-right-645060-2.html#post3117010), Investors Business Daily (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/slaughter-protected-national-emblem-gets-green-light-659171.html#post3117016) (via Hotair), The Wall Street Journal (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/gay-marriage-not-human-right-645060-3.html#post3117173) (Twice (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/gay-marriage-not-human-right-645060-4.html#post3117393)), WaPo and White House Dossier (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/gay-marriage-not-human-right-645060-4.html#post3117437), Newsweek (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/gay-marriage-not-human-right-645060-3.html#post3117204) and Pulitzer (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/gay-marriage-not-human-right-645060-4.html#post3117373).

You want more facts? Obama's Green Jobs plan is a monumental FAILURE (http://news.investors.com/article/581654/201108161838/wasted-stimulus.htm) (IBD). How long will our kids be paying for that boondoggle? Unemployment has been over 8 percent now for over 3 years (http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS14000000) (BLS) in spite of Obama's nearly trillion dollar stimulus, and you guys think the answer is to double down on the stimulus. How long is it going to take our kids and grandkids to pay for repeating that failure? The cost of Obamacare keeps rising (http://campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/morning-examiner-obamacare%E2%80%99s-cost-just-doubled/427326) (Washington Examiner), how are we going to pay for it, by raising taxes on the 1 percent? Even Bill Clinton said you could tax him at 100 percent and it wouldn't be enough (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0512/76326.html) (Politico) to balance the budget.

Doubling down on the same mistakes is not moving "forward" and spewing clichés does nothing to solve real life problems, yet that is all the left is offering as a solution.


Did you know that stopping the filibuster in the Senate would result in 1.5 million new jobs? Bet you don't, nor do you care.

Your source is who, Think Progress? Huffpo? Daily Kos? When Democrats block change it's "patriotism." When Republicans do it it's "obstruction." Cry me a river.

P.S. Please drop the Fox News bit, I think I've sufficiently destroyed that line of attack.

Ford requested a $9 billion line-of-credit from the government, and a $5 billion loan from the Energy Department. Ford pledged to accelerate development of both hybrid and battery-powered vehicles, retool plants to increase production of smaller cars, close dealerships, and sell Volvo. Ford is in better shape than GM or Chrysler because it had already mortgaged its assets in 2006 to raise $24.5 billion. Although Ford didn't need, and didn't receive any funds, it also didn't want its competition to get the upper hand thanks to the government bailout.

Yeah that's right Ford had government" funding" in the form of a line of credit to insure that the government run auto company did not gain a competitive advantage.

Today the US taxpayer owns about 26% of GM To break even ;shares of GM would need to sell at $53/share... Today GM shares are about $22/share ;and investors are bailing out.
Why Investors Are Selling GM Like Crazy - Seeking Alpha (http://seekingalpha.com/article/587731-why-investors-are-selling-gm-like-crazy)
The whole company is worth less than $34 billion even after we invested $50 billion in direct TARP funds alone plus other gimmicks that far exceed those loan guarantees to Ford(a special exemption waiving payment of $45.4 billion in taxes on future profits, an exemption for all product liability on cars sold before the bailout, $360 million in stimulus funds, $7,500 tax credit for those who buy the Chevy Volt. )

So yeah let the President brag about his success story. We would've been better off letting them go through standard bankruptcy .

Mitt would love that, because he would have taken millions out as profit, along with pensions too. I get you don't like it, but as long as they sell cars, and add JOBS, there is always tomorrow. Right?

http://seekingalpha.com/article/587731-why-investors-are-selling-gm-like-crazy


GM showed a major increase in revenue in North American markets even though it lost market share to foreign automakers along with Ford as well. The problem is that GM's heavy investment in the European market has been dragging down revenues since before GM went into bankruptcy. The issue here is that this trend still continues. There seems to be no way out or no plan in sight aside from waiting for the European market to rebound.

Its not all gloom and doom Tom.

Its not all gloom and doom Tom.

Wait, isn't that what you've been warning of if Mitt gets elected?

I am pretty sure that the numbers add up to $400,000 per job saved (and that may be a low ball estimate )... we are also subsidizing every GM car sold to the tune of almost $2,000 /car...

and this doesn't account for the former GMAC aka Ally Financial bailout which never gets mentioned in the equation .We still own 74% of the company, and no one knows the value of the potential loss or since the government has not sold any of this company's stock into the market place.

As of January, 2012, TARP had about $12 billion invested in Ally . The government stake represented a 74% ownership interest in Ally. In March, 2012, Ally failed the Federal Reserve's so-called financial "stress test" for capital adequac
Ally Financial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ally_Financial)

always Forward right ? The assumption is that these reforms are good . I do not agree. That 100 years of history has led the world to the brink of collapse . What difference to the socialist if the reforms are radically produced overnight ;or gradually over many decades ?The Marx vision of the end of history is the same....mission accomplished .

"Call it socialism or whatever you like. It is the same to me." (Bismarck)

Tripe, Tom, otherwise known a capitalist propaganda .What has led the world to this collapse is unbridled capitalism. You want to look a Greece and say AH! I told you so. But the destabilastion occurred in The United States in the sub prime loans bubble perpertrated, wait for it, by capitalist bankers who subverted the world with their dud securities. Good Heavens even my local Local Government Council lost millions and that is about as far away from Wall street as you can get. It wasn't socialism, it was greed, deliberate fraud, and it is a virus which is allowed to grow and flourish in very few places.

I've explained that before. It was government trying manage and control of the housing market that caused the 2008 crisis.

What is happenening in Greece ;and Spain and Italy is the direct result of cradle to grave entitlement culture. And this oaf Hollande will drive France over the cliff. The EU stands a good chance of collapse before the US November elections.

Repeat after me... Free Market Capitalism is the best path to Prosperity

Mitt would love that, because he would have taken millions out as profit, along with pensions too. I get you don't like it, but as long as they sell cars, and add JOBS, there is always tomorrow. Right?

Why Investors Are Selling GM Like Crazy - Seeking Alpha (http://seekingalpha.com/article/587731-why-investors-are-selling-gm-like-crazy)


Its not all gloom and doom Tom.

All of you seem to know more about all this than I do, so I have a question on a personal business level. I purchased a truck from Chrysler Financial and half way through paying on the loan, supposedly Chrysler went bankrupt after or was it before, receiving a bailout. In any event, about this time I received notification that my loan was being sold to TD Auto Finance out of Canada and that I was to start paying them directly. So there I was paying a foreign country (as much as I love Canada) for an American loan…of which Toronto-Dominion Bank acquired Chrysler Financial for $6.3 billion. Question: Was Chrysler Financial obligated to pay back the American Government any of the $6.3 billion they received from a Canadian bank for the bailout amount that went south, that the American taxpayers' essential paid for? Wasn't this under Obama's watch?


In December 2010, Toronto-Dominion Bank announced it would acquire Chrysler Financial for $6.3 billion from private-equity firm Cerberus Capital Management. The company was renamed TD Auto Finance in early June 2011.

TD Auto Finance:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TD_Auto_Finance

Repeat after me .....Free Market Capitalism is the best path to Prosperity

Sorry Tom I'm not into repeating capitalist mantras anymore than I am into repeating communist mantras but I did like and you should repeat this one yourself we will sell the last capitalist the rope to hang himself It has a real possibility of coming true and only because of the actions of the capitalists themselves who have employed communist labour

Markets need to be regulated the great bubbles of the past few centuries have been unregulated markets. Get it Tom Adam Smith and Milton Keynes were wrong, they saw through a glass but dimly and stop making the excuse that the government caused the GFC. Greed and fraud caused the GFC Tom. And it is ever so so long as unregulated markets exist

All of you seem to know more about all this than I do, so I have a question on a personal business level. I purchased a truck from Chrysler Financial and half way through paying on the loan, supposedly Chrysler went bankrupt after or was it before, receiving a bailout. In any event, about this time I received notification that my loan was being sold to TD Auto Finance out of Canada and that I was to start paying them directly. So there I was paying a foreign country (as much as I love Canada) for an American loan…of which Toronto-Dominion Bank acquired Chrysler Financial for $6.3 billion. Question: Was Chrysler Financial obligated to pay back the American Government any of the $6.3 billion they received from a Canadian bank for the bailout amount that went south, that the American taxpayers’ essential paid for? Wasn't this was under Obama's watch?

TD Auto Finance:
TD Auto Finance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TD_Auto_Finance)

By your theorum FC there should be no cross border finance. Chrysler was required to do whatever its agreement required. They didn't receive a bailout from a canadian bank. The bank bought the asset and you should be pleased they did since a bankruptcy makes many things complicated. You cannot blame BO for a commercial transaction and you should blame corporate greed and fraud for the losses not BO

.Free Market Capitalism is the best path to Prosperity

we will sell the last capitalist the rope to hang himself
You keep on touting your economic turn around without mentioning that it is based on selling resources to the Potamkin economy of your neighbor . Your model needs the Chinese to continue to grow beyond reason . I think you are in for a whole lot of hurt . But go ahead ;listen to Red Julia's lies about surplus.

I am pretty sure that the numbers add up to $400,000 per job saved (and that may be a low ball estimate ) ..... we are also subsidizing every GM car sold to the tune of almost $2,000 /car...

Some Chevy volts are being subsidized to the tune of over $30,000 when you take in the $25,600 federal grant (http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-04-17/story/jacksonville-city-fleets-add-new-chevy-volts) and the $7000 per Volt subsidy. And those "green jobs" have cost the taxpayer something like $2 million each. Give me $2 million to play with and I guarantee I can create a lot more than one job.

All of you seem to know more about all this than I do, so I have a question on a personal business level. I purchased a truck from Chrysler Financial and half way through paying on the loan, supposedly Chrysler went bankrupt after or was it before, receiving a bailout. In any event, about this time I received notification that my loan was being sold to TD Auto Finance out of Canada and that I was to start paying them directly. So there I was paying a foreign country (as much as I love Canada) for an American loan…of which Toronto-Dominion Bank acquired Chrysler Financial for $6.3 billion. Question: Was Chrysler Financial obligated to pay back the American Government any of the $6.3 billion they received from a Canadian bank for the bailout amount that went south, that the American taxpayers’ essential paid for? Wasn't this under Obama's watch?



TD Auto Finance:
TD Auto Finance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TD_Auto_Finance)

The Chrysler bailout was more complicated because it involved getting a foreign auto maker (FIAT ) to take over Chrysler . Not sure how their financial division was handled ;but best guess from your reply is that it also involved a foreign banking institution.

Repeat after me .....Free Market Capitalism is the best path to Prosperity

True. Provided you are not poor, socially disadvantaged, elderly or unborn.

Tut

True. Provided you are not poor, socially disadvantaged, elderly or unborn.

Tut

I don't buy that for a minute.

I don't buy that for a minute.

The whole lot or just one particular bit?

The unborn is voiceless . So it is particularly cruel that the government has abrogated it's responsibility to protect the child.
The elderly that have taken advantage of free market capitalism are doing OK
The best path for the poor to improve their lot is through the free market ;especially when one contrasts their prospects against ones who become permanent wards of the state .

The term "socially disadvantaged " is too broad a term to comment on.

Hello:

Free market capitalism IS the best way to prosperity. But, we don't HAVE that. We have CRONY capitalism. That helps the politically CONNECTED - not good managers.

As long as a company or an industry can get congress to make special rules for them, they don't have to COMPETE any more... They can just sit there and rake in the money.

You can tell WHICH companies they are... When you call 'em, you wind up in voice mail jail.. That's ON PURPOSE. They don't NEED to satisfy YOU any longer.. They only need to satisfy their congressmen.

excon

Save it Tut, all anyone has to do is take a bath, and get a job. There are plenty of dish washing jobs around. How long have they, the right, been calling poor, socially disadvantaged, elderly lazy drains on society, that should be forced to pay their fair share, while protecting those who have extracted all the wealth.

When will you listen to them and start making them pay for their own crumbs? That's the free market, if there are no bootstraps, then pull yourself up by your socks, and its your fault you have no socks.

The unborn is voiceless . So it is particularily cruel that the government has abrogated it's responsibility to protect the child.
The elderly that have taken advantage of free market capitalism are doing ok
The best path for the poor to improve their lot is through the free market ;especially when one contrasts their prospects against ones who become permanent wards of the state .

The term "socially disadvantaged " is too broad a term to comment on.

Hi Tom,

No, SCOTUS abrogated its responsibility by not implementing legislation from the bench.

The elderly are doing Ok? Ok, is not too broad a term?

Yes, I guess the poor have no market value.

Tut

Yes, I guess the poor have no market value. Too many examples of the poor lifting themselves up and improving their lot to take that comment seriously . Generation after generation of Americans came here poor ;and they or their families did not remain so. This happens today and it happened years before the government decided that they would not survive without government intervention. I don't know enough about your country to make that claim ;but it is absolutely true here.

Yes we do have many examples of people who overcome their obstacles, and even more of people who have made a life and go un noticed and even more of people who end up in jail. While its great to be positive, and proactive, you still have to acknowledge the great majority who stay positive and proactive, and never get rich. So why penalize them, and demonize them, or even blame them when they need a helping hand every now and then?

And what's the value of making more poor people by cutting off the circulation of MONEY, while blaming the guy who came into this mess that the free market created?

The free market, and job creators are but lies to justify robbery, and bad GREEDY behavior. So when are the jo creators and free markets going to take responsibility, and clean up their own mess, or even apreciate the ones that saved their arses from oblivion?

Or it at least, be made to pay for their crimes!?

Save it Tut, all anyone has to do is take a bath, and get a job. There are plenty of dish washing jobs around. How long have they, the right, been calling poor, socially disadvantaged, elderly lazy drains on society, that should be forced to pay their fair share, while protecting those who have extracted all the wealth.

I've never said that.


When will you listen to them and start making them pay for their own crumbs? That's the free market, if there are no bootstraps, then pull yourself up by your socks, and its your fault you have no socks.

Come on Tal, repeating the lie is not going to make it true. You might get someone to believe it but it's still a lie, just like the ridiculous "war on women" meme. I've already told you that like millions of other Americans I put my money where my mouth is (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/true-false-648677-10.html#post3082313). And when I say MY MONEY, I mean MY MONEY, voluntarily and out of true love and concern. Unlike Obama who when he says "I am my brother's keeper" he means "I'm going to take your money against your will and waste it through inefficient bureaucracies while your brother goes without."

Just as the free market is the best path to prosperity, private benevolence is the most efficient way to help those in need. When the feds become as efficient as World Vision (www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/true-false-648677-10.html#post3082313) in helping those in need I'll listen to you. Meanwhile, I'll continue to get the most effective use of my contributions.

The whole lot or just one particular bit?

The whole lot.

I've never said that.



Come on Tal, repeating the lie is not going to make it true. You might get someone to believe it but it's still a lie, just like the ridiculous "war on women" meme. I've already told you that like millions of other Americans I put my money where my mouth is (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/true-false-648677-10.html#post3082313). And when I say MY MONEY, I mean MY MONEY, voluntarily and out of true love and concern. Unlike Obama who when he says "I am my brother's keeper" he means "I'm going to take your money against your will and waste it through inefficient bureaucracies while your brother goes without."

Just as the free market is the best path to prosperity, private benevolence is the most efficient way to help those in need. When the feds become as efficient as World Vision (www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/true-false-648677-10.html#post3082313) in helping those in need I'll listen to you. Meanwhile, I'll continue to get the most effective use of my contributions.

You know I don't repeat lies, I state facts and can prove them in the real world, by reading many newspapers, from many cities, and cross checking references and reading published reports and see real people and what they confront. So stop taking it personally when I make statements of facts.

Refute my facts with yours before you call me a liar. My mind is open to them, but I will check and verify. I expect you to also.

Hello:

Free market capitalism IS the best way to prosperity. But, we don't HAVE that. We have CRONY capitalism. That helps the politically CONNECTED - not good managers.

As long as a company or an industry can get congress to make special rules for them, they don't have to COMPETE any more... They can just sit there and rake in the money.

You can tell WHICH companies they are... When you call 'em, you wind up in voice mail jail.. That's ON PURPOSE. They don't NEED to satisfy YOU any longer.. They only need to satisfy their congressmen.

excon

Then I suppose we can expect... more bad days are coming.

"Then I suppose we can expect...more bad days are coming."


No just more work to do!! Bad days as well as good ones come and go all the time.

"Then I suppose we can expect...more bad days are coming."


No just more work to do!!! Bad days as well as good ones come and go all the time.

Tushay!. A brief relapse of pessimism.

You know I don't repeat lies, I state facts and can prove them in the real world, by reading many newspapers, from many cities, and cross checking references and reading published reports and see real people and what they confront. So stop taking it personally when I make statements of facts.

Refute my facts with yours before you call me a liar. My mind is open to them, but I will check and verify. I expect you to also.

Show me the facts brother, all you showed me was rhetoric - the insinuation (better?) that free market conservatives don't give a rat's a$$ about helping people in need and saying it's their own fault "you have no socks." Totally untrue, and I'll be eagerly awaiting your facts proving otherwise.

Never thought you would ask. I will start with the Ryan budget, passed TWICE in the house, and touted by the current presidential candidate.

Fact-checking the Ryan budget plan - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/fact-checking-the-ryan-budget-plan/2011/04/05/AFIaZpnC_blog.html)

Facts and figures: Best budget ever | The Economist (http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2011/04/facts_and_figures)

10 Myths of Ryan's House Budget Plan (http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2011/05/ten-myths-of-ryans-house-budget-plan)


These are but 3 of the sources that leads me to believe this plan is a hoax to hide robbery, and extraction. I have more data, but due to injury, I have to replace my 3rd baseman. Plus my daughter is bugging me for something or other, but I will return for YOUR facts and logic if you have some! And the prerequisite rhetoric if need be

never thought you would ask. I will start with the Ryan budget, passed TWICE in the house, and touted by the current presidential candidate.

Fact-checking the Ryan budget plan - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/fact-checking-the-ryan-budget-plan/2011/04/05/AFIaZpnC_blog.html)

Facts and figures: Best budget ever | The Economist (http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2011/04/facts_and_figures)

10 Myths of Ryan's House Budget Plan (http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2011/05/ten-myths-of-ryans-house-budget-plan)


These are but 3 of the sources that leads me to believe this plan is a hoax to hide robbery, and extraction. I have more data, but due to injury, I have to replace my 3rd baseman. Plus my daughter is bugging me for something or other, but I will return for YOUR facts and logic if you have some! And the prerequisite rhetoric if need be

Quite unsure how speculation on the Ryan budget implicates all free market conservatives as coldhearted, uncaring people or that Republicans want to do away with the government safety net. I know I've personally said it here until I've run out of breath that I believe in a government safety net. I just don't believe it should be expanded infinitely or that our private resources be diverted from maximum impact to government waste. If you can't see how bad government is at spending our money then you need new glasses.

I don't have an extra 3B but I have a spare SS, and I'm still killing you guys with only 4 outfielders.

Josh Hamilton can't stay that hot forever .

Cold hearted ? It wasn't I who decided to defund Social Security with payroll tax deductions.

Josh Hamilton can't stay that hot forever .

I don't know about that. That boy is on fire.

Seems your are judged by what you do, and giving even more tax breaks to the rich, while cutting back on the safety net seems cold and heartless to me. Especially when it doesn't balance the budget.

One of the reasons that deficit is so huge is because of shrinking revenues, and 23 million jobs would be a good remedy for not only the deficit, but those PROJECTED shortfalls in social security, and medicare.

I will have to address the real elephant in the room, the pentagon/security after I pick up my grand daughter, and adjust my lime up a bit more, as my red hot pitchers are cooling of fast. I will leave you with one thing though, and that's the Haliburton contract and other military contractors.

Lol I think Haliburton has gotten more contracts from the Obots than the previous adm.

So is there some significance in that

Haliburton has gotten no bid contracts now from 3 consecutive administrations.. It has nothing to do with cronyism... they are just the best at the service they provide to the government .

I don't know enough about your country to make that claim ;but it is absolutely true here.


Hi Tom,

We tend not to deal in absolutes when it comes to a social ethos. Too ideological for our liking.

Tut

Yes a lot of things are true there that we don't experience elsewhere

Why not ? I think in many cases that is exactly what's needed . I happen to think that any law created should have an expiration date where it should be reviewed and only reinstituted if periodically debated and again approved . How about showing some positive results ? Does a program work ? Shouldn't we know it works before it becomes permanently institutionalized ? . .

I forgot to answer this one.

What you have here is a type of dialectic. In other words, you seem to be putting forward the idea of trial and error and the elimination of error.There are of course different dialectical methods but all have one thing in common, viz they all deal with the study of change.

Basically I don't think you can study an institution in terms of how it once functioned and claim to know how it works now. I think you would have to pick one premise. Together they seem like a contradiction.

Tut

Seems your are judged by what you do, and giving even more tax breaks to the rich, while cutting back on the safety net seems cold and heartless to me.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/sites/all/files/images/-5.img_assist_custom-640x462.png


Especially when it doesn't balance the budget.

There's been no effort to balance any budget, another "big" Obama promise broken. So far his laughable budgets have been voted down 610-0 since last May. Pretty pathetic for his boasting (http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/02/obamas-broken-deficit-promise/) to get spending under ntrol...


“This is big,” wrote White House director of new media Macon Phillips in a February 23, 2009 blog post, ”the President today promised that by the end of his first term, he will cut in half the massive federal deficit we've inherited. And we'll do it in a new way: honestly and candidly.”

Indeed, President Obama did make that promise that day, saying, “today I'm pledging to cut the deficit we inherited in half by the end of my first term in office. This will not be easy. It will require us to make difficult decisions and face challenges we've long neglected. But I refuse to leave our children with a debt that they cannot repay — and that means taking responsibility right now, in this administration, for getting our spending under control.”

The 2013 budget the president submitted today does not come close to meeting this promise of being reduced to $650 billion for fiscal year 2013.

The president noted in that 2009 speech the Obama administration inherited a $1.3 trillion deficit.

The deficit was similarly $1.3 trillion in 2011, is projected to be $1.15 trillion in 2012, and the president's budget claims it will be $901 billion in 2013.

Epic FAIL.


One of the reasons that deficit is so huge is because of shrinking revenues, and 23 million jobs would be a good remedy for not only the deficit, but those PROJECTED shortfalls in social security, and medicare.

The only job growth spurred by the feds under Obama is in government jobs.


I will have to address the real elephant in the room, the pentagon/security after I pick up my grand daughter, and adjust my lime up a bit more, as my red hot pitchers are cooling of fast. I will leave you with one thing though, and that's the Haliburton contract and other military contractors.

Dude, the rest of you can't beat the unmanaged team in second place below me. :p

Steve, this graph tells us nothing. What are we talking here- social expenditure or welfare expenditure? Both?

Tut

Steve, this graph tells us nothing. What are we talking here- social expenditure or welfare expenditure? Both?Hello again, TUT:

You hit the nail on the head... There's statistics, and there's damn statistics. I don't know who said that, but he's right.

Case in point. The governor of Wisconsin is being recalled. One side has statistics to PROVE that jobs were LOST during his watch... He has statistics to PROVE that jobs were GAINED. I don't know who to believe.

The chart Steve posted was prepared by a "severely right wing" senator. You can believe it if you wish. There was a time when you could COUNT on what your congressman told you... Not any more.

excon

It says we spend a lot of money.

Notwithstanding the fact that slashing budgets during a recession is in itself recessionary, since the government is the last resort for spending because the banks, corporations and consumers cannot,

Federal Spending, Taxes, and Deficits Are Lower Today Than When Obama Took Office - Derek Thompson - Business - The Atlantic (http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/05/federal-spending-taxes-and-deficits-are-lower-today-than-when-obama-took-office/257256/)

And that pesky recession thing again makes spending even more important and historically, the government safety net, you know the one that's supposed to catch people when times are hard,

Did Obama really make government bigger? - Jan. 25, 2012 (http://money.cnn.com/2012/01/25/news/economy/obama_government/index.htm)

So while you holler about spending, make sure you examine what the spending is on. And while raising taxes on the rich doesn't pay for the whole deficit, it sure does help. Isn't that the way Clinton balanced the budget, taxes, and cuts. One without the other does nothing but add to suffering.


What's important to look at, according to OMB Watch's regulatory expert Jessica Randall, is the impact the regulations have had. Many have helped Americans, such as the health care reform act allowing children to remain covered under their parents' health insurance until age 26.

"The regulations issued under Obama have benefited people's lives more than they've cost them," Randall said

And you like charts, lets examine the effects of those tax cuts, under Bush, that you protect so well at the expense of the old and poor, and mainly kids,

CHART: Without The Bush Tax Cuts, The Debt Would Be At Sustainable Levels | ThinkProgress (http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/06/07/238602/chart-debt-without-bush-tax-cuts/?mobile=nc)

Bush tax cuts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush-Obama_tax_cuts)

Economy pays price for Bush’s tax cuts | Economic Policy Institute (http://www.epi.org/publication/webfeatures_snapshots_20051026/)

Ezra Klein - The Bush tax cuts in one chart (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/12/the_bush_tax_cuts_in_one_chart.html)

As you see there are many sources that blow Mitts and republican protectionism out of the water, as they few benefit, at the expense of the rich, and the claims of job creators is but spin for trickle down, supply side economics. True job creators are consumers whose spending spurs demand, keeps factories, and warehouses booming, and corporations in business. Real job creators circulate money, not sit on it and claim they are afraid to spend because of regulations taxes, or pimples on the butt.

End of Economy 101. Questions??
Now if the Germans and the EU, do their own Marshall plan, what happened to Germany decades ago, can happen in Greece, and we all can relax. For sure we know if the austerity in Europe, espoused here by Republicans becomes reality, then we will get the same results that they are getting. Mitt and the crew get rich, and even higher unemployment. NO JOBS!

End of Economy 102, European Economics.

Funny how republicans don't want even the smallest tax hikes (.05%) on the 1%, to create much needed infrastructure projects, and jobs in the process. Wonder why? Oh that's right, if the president is right, then they are wrong!

Questions??

Questions???Hello tal:

**greenie**

excon

[QUOTE]Notwithstanding the fact that slashing budgets during a recession is in itself recessionary, since the government is the last resort for spending because the banks, corporations and consumers cannot,

Or in our case, won't because we have an administration that's extremely unfriendly to business... unless you're one of those they're picking as a "winner," like Solyndra.


Funny how republicans don't want even the smallest tax hikes (.05%) on the 1%, to create much needed infrastructure projects, and jobs in the process. Wonder why? Oh that's right, if the president is right, then they are wrong!

Questions??

Um yes, is the hyper-partisanship only on the right or does it infect Democrats, too?

You hit the nail on the head... There's statistics, and there's damn statistics. I dunno who said that, but he's right.

Which type are these?

Which type are these?Hello again, Steve:

Early season ones..

excon

Stats that say I chose my team's name right.
Hey ;did you see where the Obots are all bothered that the Chinese are exporting heavily subsidized solar panels... ROFL . The only difference is that our heavy subsidized solar companies go under.

QUOTE by speechlesstx;
Or in our case, won't because we have an administration that's extremely unfriendly to business... unless you're one of those they're picking as a "winner," like Solyndra.
I Guess you missed the list of the more than 135 companies that got loans from the energy department. Solyndra was but one and not all of them survived, and Solyndra was not the only company that stands as a viable company for the future, after the lawsuits and tariffs have run their course.It may take a while, and believe it or not, rising costs in China may bring those corporations back to American shores. Stay tuned as there is a lot going on in that part of the world.


Um yes, is the hyper-partisanship only on the right or does it infect Democrats, too?
Back in the day when Republicans actually wanted to solve problems I had my heroes, McCain, Hatch, Lugar, actually there were a few who were very thoughtful and pragmatic. The ones that are replacing them are just rubber necks with no clue about what they are doing, I mean NONE, and have but one agenda, to do as they are told by the powers that be. Not the Tea Party, as many think, but the monied people in the background who have subverted the right wing and conservatives, and scare the hell out of them.

No I am not hyper partisan, but I do see the effects on real people when a consensus is not reached. I even respect Ronald Reagan to some degree for being flexible in the face of facts and events, to manage and govern fairly effectively, and do what he had to to keep things going. I don't believe in supply side economics at all, but he also raised taxes when he had to.

No I am not hyper partisan at all, just don't BS me with dumb ideas, and expect me to not say anything. You would do well to keep a pen and a calculator by the computer, and get your own facts, and not what's been told to you, because both sides lie and spin thing there way. It was Ronald Reagan that said TRUST, but VERIFY! Wise words!

After the off season I think its safe to say Josh has something to prove, he is on FIRE!


stats that say I chose my team's name right.
Hey ;did you see where the Obots are all bothered that the Chinese are exporting heavily subsidized solar panels... ROFL . The only difference is that our heavy subsidized solar companies go under.
Socialist societies can do that! But the Chinese are not the all powerful you think they are. They are dependent on the outside world for basicsand a growing number of population centers are bring pressure to the government for much needed resources and social reforms.

Back in the day when Republicans actually wanted to solve problems I had my heroes, McCain, Hatch, Lugar, actually there were a few who were very thoughtful and pragmatic. The ones that are replacing them are just rubber necks with no clue about what they are doing, I mean NONE, and have but one agenda, to do as they are told by the powers that be. Not the Tea Party, as many think, but the monied people in the background who have subverted the right wing and conservatives, and scare the hell out of them.




Hi Tal,

You must have been listening to the John Saul lectures

Quote Saul:

The neo-conservatives who are closely linked to the neo-corporatists, are rather different. The claim to be conservative, when everything they stand for is a rejection of conservatism. The claim to present an alternative social model, when they are little more than courtiers of the corporatist movement. Their agitation is filled with the bitterness and cynicism typical of courtiers who scramble for crumbs at the banquet table of real power, but are always denied a proper chair.

Socialist societies can do that!
Indeed socialist countries need a beggar thy neighbor policy because their economic policies can't stand on their own.

Back in the day when Republicans actually wanted to solve problems I had my heroes, McCain, Hatch, Lugar, actually there were a few who were very thoughtful and pragmatic.
Yeah I bet you had a 'McCain for President' placard on your front lawn.

Indeed socialist countries need a beggar thy neighbor policy because their economic policies can't stand on their own.




Hi Tom,

Good point. Saul forget to add neo-socialists to his quote.


Tut

Hi Tal,

You must have been listening to the John Saul lectures

Quote Saul:

The neo-conservatives who are closely linked to the neo-corporatists, are rather different. The claim to be conservative, when everything they stand for is a rejection of conservatism. The claim to present an alternative social model, when they are little more than courtiers of the corporatist movement. Their agitation is filled with the bitterness and cynicism typical of courtiers who scramble for crumbs at the banquet table of real power, but are always denied a proper chair.

Read the books but never heard the lectures, but its not hard to see what Rove, Limbaugh, Norquist, and Army are really about, MONEY/POWER, CONTROL. And its all based in scaring people of low information.


QUOTE by tomder
Indeed socialist countries need a beggar thy neighbor policy because their economic policies can't stand on their own.
Socialist, or democratic, there are no nations that can stand on their own. All depend on the resources for sale by other nations. We sell them treasury bonds, they sell us stuff.


yeah I bet you had a 'McCain for President' placard on your front lawn.
He became irrelevant when he chose Palin as a running mate.

Hello again, TUT:

Did I mention crony capitalism?? THIS guy (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/19/us/politics/behind-armys-17000-drip-pan-harold-rogerss-earmark.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20120519)doesn't have to compete. He has friends in high places...

excon

Hello again, TUT:

Did I mention crony capitalism??? THIS guy (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/19/us/politics/behind-armys-17000-drip-pan-harold-rogerss-earmark.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20120519)doesn't have to compete. He has friends in high places...

excon


Hi Ex,

I think you did.

I don't want to sound too much like Saul, but I think we are all courtiers of the corporate benevolent benefactors (left and right).

By granting corporations more power the left and right believes their power will increase accordingly. However, our power base was eroded once SCOTUS decided that interest groups are really economic interest groups.

As politicians the only way we can gain more crumbs is to appease the real arbitrators of power. I think we are bitter and cynical because they only throw a few more crumbs and then inquire of the political and legal systems as to whether they can have more power in return. We are mesmerized by the ideology.

Believe it or not this is not a criticism of corporations. Corporations will do what is necessary to gain maximum benefit. As a shareholder I would be disappointed if they didn't.

Corporations are not individuals. They don't get bitter and cynical with politics- only real people can do this. Corporations will side with what ever politician will realize the most benefit. Hopefully a few more crumbs will come our way.

Tut

Indeed socialist countries need a beggar thy neighbor policy because their economic policies can't stand on their own.

yeah I bet you had a 'McCain for President' placard on your front lawn.

I can hear the band playing now, it is playing the Colonel Bogie March it is probably unfamiliar to you but some words sung to its tune go Bullshlt, Bullshlt, it's all the band could play, they played it night and day

Hi Clete,

Thanks for the insight. I think I can now see where Tom's comments are directed. The penny drops for me.

Tut

And with those comments it's clear that there is nothing else to contribute to the debate . See you .

and with those comments it's clear that there is nothing else to contribute to the debate . see ya .


Hi Tom,

My apologies.

Your comment was in relation to socialistic countries. But you didn't refer to the countries.

My insight the belief on my part that I had worked out the country you were talking about.

I can assure you that my comment was not a suggest in any way that your comments are BS. This was never my intention and never will be.

Again, I apologize for any misunderstanding.

Tut

No I did Tut, it's OK Tom you can spit the dummy, take your bat and ball, and go home

Sometimes you just have to call it how you see it

Seems the G8 summit at Camp David is turning the conversation from just austerity to investments in light of elections in Greece, Spain, and Germany. It's a start.

Hello tal:

Here's the crazy thing... Europe is having trouble... Our right wingers say it's because they spent too much, and that's where we're headed. I say it's because the government cut the people off at the knees, and that's where we're headed..

Seems like somebody should be able to figure out exactly WHAT is going on. No?

excon

Seems the G8 summit at Camp David is turning the conversation from just austerity to investments in light of elections in Greece, Spain, and Germany. Its a start.

Apparently Obama's vision for the G8 was to pander to women. He doesn't do anything without putting himself first.

Apparently Obama's vision for the G8 was to pander to women. He doesn't do anything without putting himself first.

WHAAAAA? Explain that one or have a Starbucks on me!

Hello tal:

Here's the crazy thing... Europe is having trouble... Our right wingers say it's because they spent too much, and that's where we're headed. I say it's because the government cut the people off at the knees, and that's where we're headed..

Seems like somebody should be able to figure out exactly WHAT is going on. No?

excon

What's goining on ex is the IMF got loose again they have only one agenda gut government spending

It's the same here Clete, big banks want to implement more of what we call trickle down economics, which requires them to make the rules and the government being to weak to do anything about it. Europeans have never been really exposed to this type of corporate, and economic coup before, and its wrecking havoc.

The European Stabilization Mechanism, or How the Goldman Vampire Squid Just Captured Europe | NationofChange (http://www.nationofchange.org/european-stabilization-mechanism-or-how-goldman-vampire-squid-just-captured-europe-1337519246)


The Goldman Sachs coup that failed in America has nearly succeeded in Europe—a permanent, irrevocable, unchallengeable bailout for the banks underwritten by the taxpayers.

European conservatives are no different than American conservatives, they hate governments of the people, and love the bankers of the wealthy.

Very Interesting article Tal but I found an error in it and if there is one error there will be more. The error refers to the Commonwealth Bank as a state owned bank

This is not a new idea but has been used historically to very good effect, e.g. in Australia through the Commonwealth Bank of Australia

The reserve bank in Australia is the Reserve Bank of Australia, the Commonwealth Bank, a one time government asset put in place in the great depression due to bank failures, was privatised years ago

That's no error though Clete, as this bank has morphed into what we have here in the states a private super big financial institute(S). The reference was to what the Europeans could model their state banks on the way Australia and Canada has done over the years.


Alternatively, Eurozone governments could re-establish their economic sovereignty by reviving their publicly owned central banks and using them to issue the credit of the nation for the benefit of the nation, effectively interest-free. This is not a new idea but has been used historically to very good effect, e.g. in Australia through the Commonwealth Bank of Australia and in Canada through the Bank of Canada.

Put simply, a state bank would let the Greeks, Spanish, and others leverage its own debt, without the strings of other banks and in the case of the Greeks specifically, a much lower interest rate (18% currently to 4 or 5%), refinancing the debt options, local private investments, bond issuance and best of all the formation of a Greek Federal reserve to value its own currency on the open market.

Most nations have done this, even some Eurozone nations and had the greeks coat been pulled long ago, we wouldn't even be talking of their debt, or collapse, so the question is why weren't they, and why are they not now?

My guess its those high monthly, yearly revenue streams that greek debts bring some as they extract whatever wealth they can before anybody figures it out. Its simple really, poor nations have to do what other nations have done to become stable, and prosperous, and meet the challenges of globalization. Then no outside entity could impose austerity, and the poverty that comes with it.

Tal the Commonwealth Bank was originally a savings bank. However there was never a suggestion of loans made at low interest. Today that bank is very strong in the commercial and residential sectors and is very large even by world standards. It is not an instrument of government policy. Australia has had a long period of high interest rates, much higher than in US and Europe, its economy has thrived without government contrivence to force down interest rates. One of the reasons your economy is slow to recover is lack of incentive for investment caused by low interest rates. Greece on the other hand is below junk bond status and unlikely to attract investment, it therefore needs assistence at government level

Its not the point of what YOUR nation personally did with YOUR situation, but about the GREEK people can do with theirs. Nationally OUR recovery appears slow, but a regional analysis reveals great pockets of recovery, and while slow, is very steady. Corporate profits are through the roof, in private business sectors, and a more flexible congress is the only thing stopping a serious growth boom, but the WAR here is hardly over.

I find your statement,


one of the reasons your economy is slow to recover is lack of incentive for investment caused by low interest rates.

At a time of already record profits and growing by the quarter, the interest rates being low has nothing to do with investment incentives. Truth be told, they could care less as American corporate extractionism is about getting rich without creating anything but wealth, and they have proved they can do that.

That's why I added the link, about what the big banks are trying to do here, and in Europe, and... wait for it... CHINA!

Thats why I added the link, about what the big banks are trying to do here, and in Europe, and ......wait for it......................CHINA!

Tal we offer many lessons on how to manage a country, development and a budget and I have no doubt the Greeks could benefit from it. As a small nation our systems are probably more appropriate to the scale of the Greek economy. One feature is a very effective taxation system, and I have noted the perpensity of people from mediterranian nations to have a caviliar attitude towards taxation. . The banks are doing what banks do everywhere, protecting both their asset and their income, but China is a different environment to Europe, when you do something wrong there, the justice system takes a different road

Even the Greeks have no faith in their banks anymore.

Understandable, their status is also junk bond status because of the soveriegn nation rating so even if they are sound their cost of funds is high and access limited, but the Greeks know the possibility of an exit from the Euro so they are keeping their Euros in a safer place where they can access them as well as keeping them from the prying eyes of the government. There has been a lot of tax evasion in Greece and funds have moved cross border.

The Greeks have done this to themselves and the remedy is hard to take because the impact always falls on the poor, the unemployed

The PIGS are back in the limelight with Spain suffering a severe liquidity crisis and looking for an injection of capital into its banks. The only way out is merger and acquisition and we might even use the "B" word; bankruptcy, someone has to be allowed to fail, however undesirable that may be. If the local economy cannot provide capital, hasn't the confidence to provide capital, then the government becomes the lender of the last resort and nationalisation follows. Why should the rest of Europe be involved? Why should the rest of Europe be asked to do what the Spanish government is reluctant to do?

That's what they get for not having a central European government. Then they could be restuctured instead of good money chasing bad, or imposing crippling and smothering "austerity" on a contracting economy, or NON economy.

Thats what they get for not having a central European government. Then they could be restuctured instead of good money chasing bad, or imposing crippling and smothering "austerity" on a contracting economy, or NON economy.

Tal they have a central european government, they just don't have financial intregration. The europeans don't want to be ruled by Brussles in the way you are ruled from Washington. They realise there is already too much centralisation of power. We have to be realistic here, if the economy is contracting it doesn't need as many public servants to administer it so austerity is about financial management. In my own country a state government just announced massive cuts to the public service, no one rioted in the streets, no one ran around shouting, austerity, doom and gloom, all understood there has been economic contraction and measures have to be taken

Just imagine what you are suggesting means. A common pension plan for everyone in Europe, irrespective of how long the country has been part of Europe and contributed. A common taxation regime. Military integration not just NATO. Income sharing from the central government. There are three dominant economies in Europe and they can't agree on the methodology, how will the rest agree.

Austerity is the tool of the IMF and the World Bank, institutions dominated by the US

someone has to be allowed to fail, however undesirable that may be. been saying that since 2008

Why should the rest of Europe be involved? Why should the rest of Europe be asked to do what the Spanish government is reluctant to do?
They shouldn't ,but it is the price they pay for constructing an artificial economic zone with a common currency. The productive nations must pay for the leeches.

That's what they get for not having a central European government. Then they could be restuctured instead of good money chasing bad, or imposing crippling and smothering "austerity" on a contracting economy, or NON economy.
No ,the flaw is in the economic model. The only way that Europe has historically been united is in dictatorship. Don't think we want that... do we ;even with this love of central control ?

We have to be realistic here, if the economy is contracting it doesn't need as many public servants to administer it so austerity is about financial management. In my own country a state government just announced massive cuts to the public service, no one rioted in the streets, no one ran around shouting, austerity, doom and gloom, all understood there has been economic contraction and measures have to be taken
Some of our state and local leaders get that . What we have in Washington instead is leadership obsessed in expanding the public payroll.It is there where constituencies are bought.

Some of our state and local leaders get that . What we have in Washington instead is leadership obsessed in expanding the public payroll.It is there where constituencies are bought.

You mean to say your people can't see beyond tamminy hall politics after all this time. What do they call that over there; boondogglin? Well this is the season for boondogglin, so boondoggle away. Has the thought occurred to anyone that if the money being spent on razzle dazzle was spent on boosting the economy you would be out of recession by now. No money to create employment but plenty to throw away on advertising, I certainly hope they can't get a tax deduction for that

As long as you have a small elite unelected part of the population making policy, and rules and regulations, there is going to be an uneven distribution of wealth, an uneven opportunity for wealth, and massive abuses of the setting of priorities. Restoring circulation is the bed rock of any economic growth. Austerity,(cost cutting) must be balanced by growth, as contraction slows growth, and stops circulation.

Its cause and effect, best exemplified by the results of austerity measures that have produced high unemployment, AND massive declines in circulation of much needed resources. Especially when debts, sustainable before becomes an anchor to growth or even breaking even.

As long as you have a small elite unelected part of the population making policy, and rules and regulations, there is going to be an uneven distribution of wealth, an uneven opportunity for wealth, and massive abuses of the setting of priorities. union leadership ?

union leadership ?

No Tom I think it is called the Senate and the Congress

Those are elected branches.

union leadership ?

Actually I mean't the ones with the power and money to control the government, and the people. And corporations.

So did I when I wrote 'union leadership'.

So did I when I wrote 'union leadership'.

so did I when I wrote Senate and Congress, being elected doesn't change the equation since money and influence is needed to get elected

Possibly ;but you didn't hear the Dems crying about it when they swept the Presidency and both houses of Congress in 2008 . Bet you they claim there was no corporate money in that win.

Possibly ;but you didn't hear the Dems crying about it when they swept the Presidency and both houses of Congress in 2008 . Bet ya they claim there was no corporate money in that win.

No it all came from Obama's personal coffers. What do you want Tom, the government to take control of the elections, set the budget and pay the expenses. It certainly would be a better system but no republican would ever get elected

After 8 years of Bush, we ALL cried, even you Tom, an instead of rejecting his ways, now you embrace them, and want more of them. How quickly you forget. So now you want what the Europeans are being ripped apart with, AUSTERITY, cuts on the backs of working poor, and getting poorer. No investment in things that NEED investing in, and more extraction of wealth by the already wealthy. But you expect different results.

The Romney/Ryan plan guarantees higher debts, and deficits, an neither shows the growths that they claim, just keep feeding the rich and it will be okay. At least Ryan is straight forward about his cuts, but Romney won't tell because he knows the uninformed voters on the right won't even stand for the cuts he is so secret about, because he wants to be President.

And they holler about Obama making us like Europe! At least the right does. Lets face it, the jobs bill the president proposed will pass with flying colors if you guys can kick every body off Medicare, and your kids, not Romney's, will suffer for generations. Once the Europeans embrace co ordinated investment and circulation of money, they can grow, but like all free trade, supply side, conservatives every where, they protect the rich and are accomplices in robbery over the population.

They will learn as they go through their own depression because the rich fat Greeks on top screwed up everything with there nickel slick, scam game on there own people. Just like we and are repeating the mistakes of the past.

Don't worry Tal you will never be old Europe, you are a different place with different ways, founded by people who weren't wanted in Europe

Possibly ;but you didn't hear the Dems crying about it when they swept the Presidency and both houses of Congress in 2008 . Bet ya they claim there was no corporate money in that win.

Including SCOTUS I guess that makes three non-representational branches. That's a pluralism of sorts

Tut

Including SCOTUS I guess that makes three non-representational branches. That's a pluralism of sorts

Tut

Yes short lived at best, not even long enough for BO to get his legislation through congress an empiric victory

Back on thread, have you noticed? Suddenly Greece is of little interest and the spotlight has shifted to Spain. How fickle is the media

Greek Newspapers (http://www.allyoucanread.com/greek-newspapers/)

It's all Greek to me, things are far more interesting here what with the Prime Minister telling gays I'm not married why should you be, live in sin

Now that's honest, an unique. Bet the divorce lawyers are going NUTS!! Or bananas!

Now thats honest, an unique. Bet the divorce lawyers are going NUTS!!! Or bananas!

No but some say her comments are hurtfull. Divorce lawyers don't care they have plenty of business, you see it is all right to have rebellion against the establishment in some directions but not in others. One says I want to be married like the rest of you, the other says, marriage is the problem here we will just have the government step back out of marriage, after all I am not married and I see no problem.

I see a parallel with the Greeks and Europe, the Greeks said we want to be like the rest of you being able to borrow money cheaply and live the good life, while Europe said you must abide by the rules, rules we will make later. We don't live the good life and neither should you

The press is concentrating on the brush fires instead of the core problem in the Euro zone. So when they give money to Spanish banks their attention shifts to Italy ;at least until the Greek election .When the commies take over there ,that will be the end of the Greek relationship with the Euro.

The press is concentrating on the brush fires instead of the core problem in the Euro zone. So when they give money to Spanish banks their attention shifts to Italy ;at least until the Greek election .When the commies take over there ,that will be the end of the Greek relationship with the Euro.

What brush fires? Do you have some little fires in the back country or are you talking about those spanish banks that should be allowed to fail in the traditional way. I don't see commies taking over in Greece that might be a bridge too far, but I do see a big finger being extended in the direction of Europe. No if Germany were to send it's muslim immigrants (cheap labour) home and employ Greeks the problem would be over. The problem is structural and it needs a little structural adjustment and lateral thinking. A united Europe must do united Europe things

what brush fires? Do you have some little fires in the back country or are you talking about those spanish banks that should be allowed to fail in the traditional way. of course. The Spain brush fire will flare again when they discover that saving the banks won't save the country. Italy's brush fire will flare when they formally reject Mario Monti's tough economic measures . The idiots in France just decided to lower the retirement age. That will eventually cause the French brush fire to flame again.. and so on...
They have not confronted the coming maelstrom .

Maelstrom, will that put out the brush fire? And let us not forget who lit these fires in the first place, that pyro is still loose in the world burning up more and more money. France is lowering the retirment age perhaps thinking this is a cure to unemployment, a recognition that some are not strong enough to work into their seventies.

We need a fresh approach to all of this and perhaps retiring a few politicians on both sides of the Atlantic will help cure ths northern hemisphere disease. The old thinking of free market and capitalist rorting of the sysytem must give way and the best way is forced retirment