Now I am not even thinking about suicide but I need a question answered.

I have an Aunt and Great Grandfather commit suicide and my mom has attempted twice. After the second time though she woke up and asked her self what she was doing? She will not attempt again. Anyway I'm getting off subject...

I am a Christian and I know I have been taught that if you take your own life you go to hell. One of the reasons is because you can not ask for forgiveness if you are dead. But my question is if before taking your life you say and ask "God please forgive me for what I am about to do?" If you are forgiven and get to go to heaven on judgement day?

I assume not because there are some sins that god do not forgive and suicide is one of them.its bad for someone else not to care about your life but even worse when you yourself hates your inner soul. Life is a gift and suicide is like throwing that gift back in gods face and telling him its worthless.

I too am a Christian and do not believe a suicide goes to hell (if there even is one). The majority of the time, the person who commits suicide is tightly wrapped up in drug use, alcoholism, mental illness, or other psychological problems that have changed who he is inside and how he thinks.

I believe God looks into a person's heart and goes from there.

That's what I believe too Wondergirl. In my thinking no one in their right mind would want to take their life. How can they be blamed for taking their life if they are not in their right mind. Depression,drugs etc. You are not the person whom God intended you to be.

Saying one goes to Hell after suicide is simply a statement that is said too strongly. Yes, there is reason to believe that but in the end we do not know. I know God is loving and merciful and there are some issues we simply need to leave in His hands. We don't know everything, we can't know everything and we never will know everything... some things belong to Him and him alone and suicide and the afterlife are one of them.

Well said. Thank You and God bless :)

It's called grace. Jesus died and rose for ALL of my sins, past, present and future. Confessing my sins doesn't re-save me, it restores my earthly friendship with God. He doesn't cast me away every time I grumble a curse against my goofy neighbor downstairs; Jesus paid for that. God doesn't like it, and wants me to confess, but it has nothing to do with my eternal standing with Him. The teaching that calls suicide unforgivable is based on the idea that we're saved by grace, but kept by works. It doesn't work that way. Saved by grace, and kept by grace. I couldn't do anything to merit salvation in the first place, it's all by grace. Paul hammers away at this in Ephesians 2, and too many people still don't get it. The ONLY sin that sends anybody to hell is unbelief, i.e. not trusting in Jesus' death and resurrection to give me new life and make me a new person. Everything else has already been dealt with at the cross.

I agree with dwashbur. I will go a step further... I don't even believe we have to confess our sins. They are forgiven never to be remembered anymore. When I screw up, I talk to the Lord about it.. but it is NOT a requirement for my salvation. I don't even ask him to forgive me. HE DID, HE HAS. The Lord Jesus wants us to be Christ conscience.. not sin conscience.

I know what 1 John says... but many believe the 1 chapter was NOT written to the CHURCH... get to the 2nd chapter and John begins his letter to the Church because he uses the term... little children. If you read up on it there was a group of people who were denying that Jesus Christ was not her in the flesh, it was a spiritual... kind of new age thinking. If you read 1 John with that in mind... it makes since. In any event, Jesus paid for me sins or he didn't. And if we have to confess every sin... I am in a boat load of trouble because I can't even remember them all. We either take that verse literally or not for us. Don't see any other way around it.

Jesus died and rose for ALL of my sins, past, present and future........... The ONLY sin that sends anybody to hell is unbelief,.

How do you reconcile these two statements?

How do you reconcile these two statements?

Athos,

I know Dave can speak for himself. But I will take a crack at answering your question, as I KNOW how you value my thoughts. :D

Once someone becomes a believer in Christ, confesses with his mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believes in his heart God raised him from the dead they are saved. All their sins were put on Jesus at the cross. There is a spiritual swap. Jesus took all their sins and punishment for them,and they get all of his righteousness. The only thing that sends anyone to hell is NOT believing and rejecting Jesus and his finished work.

Athos,

I know Dave can speak for himself. But I will take a crack at answering your question, as i KNOW how you value my thoughts. :D

Once someone becomes a believer in Christ, confesses with his mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believes in his heart God raised him from the dead they are saved. All their sins were put on Jesus at the cross. There is a spiritual swap. Jesus took all their sins and punishment for them,and they get all of his righteousness. The only thing that sends anyone to hell is NOT beleiving and rejecting Jesus and his finished work.

Couldn't have said it better myself. The forgiveness I mentioned is there and available to anybody who accepts it. But like any gift, it's not yours until you take it. That's what unbelief does: it rejects the gift. That's why it's the only thing that sends anyone to hell. I hope this answers your question; if not, feel free to expand and I'll be happy to keep trying.

Couldn't have said it better myself. The forgiveness I mentioned is there and available to anybody who accepts it. But like any gift, it's not yours until you take it. That's what unbelief does: it rejects the gift. That's why it's the only thing that sends anyone to hell. I hope this answers your question; if not, feel free to expand and I'll be happy to keep trying.

I don't think my question has been understood. I'll try again.

Statement one says ALL sins are forgiven. Statement two contradicts this by saying there is a sin that is NOT forgiven (hence, not ALL are forgiven). Both statements can't be true.

I don't think my question has been understood. I'll try again.

Statement one says ALL sins are forgiven. Statement two contradicts this by saying there is a sin that is NOT forgiven (hence, not ALL are forgiven). Both statements can't be true.

Statement one was used when Dave spoke of himself personally. Statement two was a general statement about anyone. So both statements CAN be true... and you thought me a dippy blonde... tsk tsk.

Matt.12:31,32 KJV: Wherefore I say unto you, all manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

"Then he says again: As the Savior converses with those not yet able to receive what is perfect, condescending to their littleness, while the Holy Spirit communes with the perfected, and yet we could never say on that account that the teaching of the Spirit is superior to the teaching of the Son, but only that the Son condescends to the imperfect, while the Spirit is the seal of the perfected; even so it is not on account of the superiority of the Spirit over the Son that the blasphemy against the Spirit is a sin excluding impunity and pardon, but because for the imperfect there is the pardon, while for those who have tasted the heavenly gift, and been made perfect, there remains no plea or prayer for pardon." Ancient Church Father Theognostus of Alexandria, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Hypotyposes, pg 156, 6.3

I don't think my question has been understood. I'll try again.

Statement one says ALL sins are forgiven. Statement two contradicts this by saying there is a sin that is NOT forgiven (hence, not ALL are forgiven). Both statements can't be true.

The dippy blonde ;) said it pretty well. In statement one I was talking about MY sins, and by extension, the sins of anyone who accepts the free gift of salvation/forgiveness. Statement two pretty well denotes the obvious: there are those who don't accept it. That sin isn't forgiven. I hope that clears it up.

The dippy blonde ;) said it pretty well. In statement one I was talking about MY sins, and by extension, the sins of anyone who accepts the free gift of salvation/forgiveness. Statement two pretty well denotes the obvious: there are those who don't accept it. That sin isn't forgiven. I hope that clears it up.

If the first explanation doesn't work, then try another?? I thought my original comment/question couldn't have been simpler, but, judging by the responses, I was wrong about that. And, the Matthew reference wasn't even close to my question.

In any case, no need to belabor this. I thank you all for the replies and your attempts to clarify.

If the first explanation doesn't work, then try another??? I thought my original comment/question couldn't have been simpler, but, judging by the responses, I was wrong about that. And, the Matthew reference wasn't even close to my question.

In any case, no need to belabor this. I thank you all for the replies and your attempts to clarify.

Athos,

Perhaps you just didn't like the answer. Maybe you thought you tripped us/Dave up somehow. Bummer. Oh I know, I know... I'm going to get another reddie for this post. That's OK... it keeps me humble. :D

Now I am not even thinking about suicide but I need a question answered.

I have an Aunt and Great Grandfather commit suicide and my mom has attempted twice. After the second time though she woke up and asked her self what she was doing? She will not attempt again. Anyway I'm getting off subject...

I am a Christian and I know I have been taught that if you take your own life you go to hell. One of the reasons is because you can not ask for forgiveness if you are dead. But my question is if before taking your life you say and ask "God please forgive me for what I am about to do?" If you are forgiven and get to go to heaven on judgement day?
CA,

Asking for forgiveness before you do something, knowing that what you are going to do is wrong, has the wrong intent and invalidates your request. Forgiveness implies something that you already did, are repentant for, and do not seek to do again. That's not really possible in your explained scenario above.

For the record, my experience with suicides is that immediately after death they have to meet the Father. What happens after that is between the Father and that person as to what their final destination will be.

Peace...

That's what I believe too Wondergirl. In my thinking no one in their right mind would want to take their life. How can they be blamed for taking their life if they are not in their right mind. Depression,drugs etc. You are not the person whom God intended you to be.
Unless there is a severe mental incompetence, we are all responsible for our actions. I've seen many situations like this and I understand how life can be, but regardless of the circumstances, suicide is a "sinful" act. It is the refusal to live the life that you were entrusted with and that refusal is a very grave and serious matter.

Peace...

I remember Jesus asking the Father to forgive the people for putting him to death while he was on the cross, something along the lines of forgive them, they know not what they do. Then of course we see just not knowing something is wrong, does not mean you don't have to be forgiven, the excuse you don't know it is wrong, does not make it right, so people who do things they think is right but it is not, still need forgiveness.

1. so failure to know it is wrong does not take away need for forgivenss

Jesus taught his follows how to pray, in what we call the Lords prayer, We ask God to forgive our sins, and it appears this is to be prayed often, if we are forgiven of all future sins when we became a Christian, why did Christ teach us to ask for forgiveness in our regular prayers ? He would have merely said, thank you for already having forgiven me, not forgive me my sins.

It is obvious at least to me, that forgiveness is not a one time only event, but we have to ask forgiveness all the time for our sins.

2. we have a need to ask forgiveness.

For the record, my experience with suicides is that immediately after death they have to meet the Father.
That's true for all of us, not just suicides.

And in your "experience"??

That's true for all of us, not just suicides.

And in your "experience"?????
The meeting between suicides and others who pass away is different. Others are ushered into heaven by the angels. Suicides meet with the Father to determine what they have to do next. They are "educated" about their life and given "options" since they purposely cut short the life that God had planned out for them.

Yes, we must all meet the Father and answer for what we have done. But there's a difference between one who has cut short the life that God gave them and one who lived out their life-choices good and bad.

Think about it this way... God has a plan in place and a purpose for every human life. He puts people and circumstances in your life for a reason - to instigate a choice. Your journey in life based on these choices is what the Father uses to teach you more about Him and the truths of the universe. In other words a suicide has created a short-circuit in the universe that has to be repaired. He has different options to repair that individual's short-circuit.

I realize that this sounds completely strange, un-Biblical and un-Christian. I've learned over the years that reality is often much different than what I believe to be true based on a closed-source religious belief system. My blog explains it all. My experiences are not something that I wish to debate here in this kind of arena. I simply offer "answers" that I believe to be true and leave high-level theology and cosmology debates for other sites.

Peace...

How did you gain all this inside information about suicide and forgiveness what happens when we die and what God's plan is?

How did you gain all this inside information about suicide and forgiveness what happens when we die and what God's plan is?
Again, read my blog. The address is in my profile. It's not "inside" information, it's what was revealed to me, just like things are revealed to you that the Father wants you to know and understand. I didn't ask for it, didn't want it and certainly don't recommend my life to anyone else.

My actual "belief system" is predominantly Catholic (though I've never been one) with a mixture of evangelicalism (which I've always belonged to). So, when I speak of forgiveness, sin and other issues, I will generally point to a Catholic viewpoint which I believe to be correct, though one should not take my views as the definitive Catholic belief.

I detect an understandable indifference to the information I gave in my post. I only know what I know, no more, no less. Even if the Father tried to give me all the truth in the world my mind would not be able to handle it, neither could yours. He gives us what we need to know when we need to know it and how He wants us to know it. That's His business and He's pretty good at it.

If you would like to ask specific questions about the content at my site, feel free to email me. I'd be glad to share.

Peace...

I asked that this thread be moved to a discussion board, so there isn't such limitation as to where this thread could go.

The revelations I've received are entirely different from yours, mm. So as Pilate rhetorically asked, 'What is truth?"

I asked that this thread be moved to a discussion board, so there isn't such limitation as to where this thread could go.

The revelations I've received are entirely different from yours, mm. So as Pilate rhetorically asked, 'What is truth?"
If it is moved, where does it go? Never mind! I just haven't browsed enough to figure that out :)

The revelations that you have received are for you and your path. They are neither inferior or superior to mine. They are not false, making mine untrue and vice-versa. God would not tell me that the earth is round and turn around and tell you it was flat. He does not lie.

I can tell you that I've been down many roads in life and they have all taught me something. Growing up I believed that evangelical Christianity and Scripture were the ultimate truth. Then in order that I could do missionary work and really prove to unbelievers that my way was correct, I began to study other religions. Well, few years into that scenario, I found Buddhism and was enamored with it. I took vows from a Zen Buddhist priest and became a practicing Buddhist. I had done exactly the opposite of what I planned on doing! Instead of converting others, I was converted myself :)

I've been through the whole idea of who is right and who is wrong and what the truth is. Frankly, I'm done telling others what the absolute truth is. But, I love talking about beliefs and experiences that make us who we are. And, in the end, we each have to give an account of our lives. If I am ultimately wrong about everything I believe when I meet my Maker, I will humbly ask Him to eternally teach me... in Heaven... what the absolute truth is :) I know that I will be wrong about many things and it certainly won't be any surprise to Him. I will bow before Him in awe and humility regardless of His decision on what to do with me.

Peace...

It was moved from Christianity to Religious Discussions.

We're there now, so discuss away.

I remember Jesus asking the Father to forgive the people for putting him to death while he was on the cross, something along the lines of forgive them, they know not what they do. Then of course we see just not knowing something is wrong, does not mean you don't have to be forgiven, the excuse you don't know it is wrong, does not make it right, so people who do things they think is right but it is not, still need forgiveness.

1. so failure to know it is wrong does not take away need for forgivenss

Jesus taught his follows how to pray, in what we call the Lords prayer, We ask God to forgive our sins, and it appears this is to be prayed often, if we are forgiven of all future sins when we became a Christian, why did Christ teach us to ask for forgiveness in our regular prayers ? He would have merely said, thank you for already having forgiven me, not forgive me my sins.

it is obvious at least to me, that forgiveness is not a one time only event, but we have to ask forgiveness all the time for our sins.

2. we have a need to ask forgiveness.
Good example.

I don't think Jesus said these things just to go through some religious motions to remind us that we are already forgiven of everything... just like I don't think that Jesus telling us that the bread is His body and the wine is His blood is just a reminder of His sacrifice. We need to ask for forgiveness. Merely assuming that we are okay with God and we can go on our merry way is a dangerous attitude and way of life.

Peace...

I remember Jesus asking the Father to forgive the people for putting him to death while he was on the cross, something along the lines of forgive them, they know not what they do. Then of course we see just not knowing something is wrong, does not mean you don't have to be forgiven, the excuse you don't know it is wrong, does not make it right, so people who do things they think is right but it is not, still need forgiveness.

1. so failure to know it is wrong does not take away need for forgivenss

Jesus taught his follows how to pray, in what we call the Lords prayer, We ask God to forgive our sins, and it appears this is to be prayed often, if we are forgiven of all future sins when we became a Christian, why did Christ teach us to ask for forgiveness in our regular prayers ? He would have merely said, thank you for already having forgiven me, not forgive me my sins.

it is obvious at least to me, that forgiveness is not a one time only event, but we have to ask forgiveness all the time for our sins.

2. we have a need to ask forgiveness.

Fr_chuck,

We are instructed to rightly divide the word of Truth. Jesus walked on this earth as an example of pure Grace. However, he was a Jew under the law. Many things that the Lord Jesus said was to the Jew, Under the Law. Plus, he hadn't died and rose again. The church as we know it didn't begin until he revealed grace to Paul. So when we read the word, we have to understand who it is written to and who was writing it and what they understood when they wrote it. All of his word is inspired, all of his word is written for us... but it isn't all written to us.

Please give me verses in Paul's epistles where we are instructed to ask for forgiveness for our sins on a daily basis. NOPE.. you won't find it. WHY? Because we are completely righteous before the Lord... not because of OUR works... but because of Jesus WORK.

We get in Galatians that Paul had a gentlemen's agreement to go to the Gentiles... Peter and the others to the Jews. Paul is OUR apostle and he never wrote to ask for forgiveness in his epistles.

where we are instructed to ask for forgiveness for our sins on a daily basis.
"Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."

Mark 11: 24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 25 And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.”

WG.

I asked where the Apostle PAUL instructed us to ask the Lord for forgiveness of daily sins... after Jesus died and rose again. And... don't bother looking.. he didn't tell us to. IN FACT... he proclaimed we were the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.

From The Value of Daily Confession and Repentance (http://www.fredonia.edu/faculty/math/JonathanCox/personal/daniel/daily.html) --

Although we have been redeemed and have new life with Christ, we still live in a world and in a body polluted with sin, and the devil constantly seeks to lead us astray. The result is a continual struggle between our spiritual self in Christ, that is, our new man, and our unspiritual self, that is, our sinful nature. "For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want" (Gal 5:17). Paul describes the wearying frustrations of such daily struggles within us: "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do, but what I hate I do. . . . I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. . . . When I want to do good, evil is right there with me" (Rom 7:15, 18, 19, 21). Since such a battle wages within us, since the devil never ceases to offer up many temptations, since we are sinners and sin daily--the need to daily confess and repent is very real!

If it is moved, where does it go? Nevermind! I just haven't browsed enough to figure that out :)

The revelations that you have received are for you and your path. They are neither inferior or superior to mine. They are not false, making mine untrue and vice-versa. God would not tell me that the earth is round and turn around and tell you it was flat. He does not lie.

I can tell you that I've been down many roads in life and they have all taught me something. Growing up I believed that evangelical Christianity and Scripture were the ultimate truth. Then in order that I could do missionary work and really prove to unbelievers that my way was correct, I began to study other religions. Well, few years into that scenario, I found Buddhism and was enamored with it. I took vows from a Zen Buddhist priest and became a practicing Buddhist. I had done exactly the opposite of what I planned on doing! Instead of converting others, I was converted myself :)

I've been through the whole idea of who is right and who is wrong and what the truth is. Frankly, I'm done telling others what the absolute truth is. But, I love talking about beliefs and experiences that make us who we are. And, in the end, we each have to give an account of our lives. If I am ultimately wrong about everything I believe when I meet my Maker, I will humbly ask Him to eternally teach me...in Heaven...what the absolute truth is :) I know that I will be wrong about many things and it certainly won't be any surprise to Him. I will bow before Him in awe and humility regardless of His decision on what to do with me.

Peace...

Mysticman - Thank you for bringing light and intelligence to this board which is frequently riddled with "book idolatry".

Your approach is fresh, and the path you have chosen is an important one.

Peace...

from The Value of Daily Confession and Repentance (http://www.fredonia.edu/faculty/math/JonathanCox/personal/daniel/daily.html) --

Although we have been redeemed and have new life with Christ, we still live in a world and in a body polluted with sin, and the devil constantly seeks to lead us astray. .........................!

Excellent quote.

Fr_chuck,

We are instructed to rightly divide the word of Truth. Jesus walked on this earth as an example of pure Grace. However, he was a Jew under the law. Many things that the Lord Jesus said was to the Jew, Under the Law. Plus, he hadn't died and rose again. The church as we know it didn't begin until he revealed grace to Paul. So when we read the word, we have to understand who it is written to and who was writing it and what they understood when they wrote it. All of his word is inspired, all of his word is written for us...but it isn't all written to us.

Please give me verses in Paul's epistles where we are instructed to ask for forgiveness for our sins on a daily basis. NOPE..you won't find it. WHY? because we are completely righteous before the Lord...not because of OUR works...but because of Jesus WORK.

We get in Galatians that Paul had a gentlemen's agreement to go to the Gentiles....Peter and the others to the Jews. Paul is OUR apostle and he never wrote to ask for forgiveness in his epistles.
I'm confused (which happens often). St. Paul has several books attributed to him. But, there is a library of 66 works throughout Scripture (in the Protestant canon). So... I don't get it. What about St. Matthew and St. Luke and the prophets? Why did Jesus Himself teach us the Lord's Prayer? Paul is our apostle? If Paul didn't say it then we Gentiles don't have to do it? Truly baffled.

Peace...

I'm confused........... Truly baffled.



Welcome to the club.

0.o *Wow* this question went along a lot further than I thought. But thank you all for answering it for me :)

0.o *Wow* this question went along a lot further than I thought. But thank you all for answering it for me :)


:) As you can see, it will depend on who you ask and what their beliefs are. This is true of most questions dealing with faith and belief.

I have mentioned it several times on different threads; what someone believes, or doesn't believe, often depends on where they were born, the family they were raised in, and what they have gone out to study on their own. It's not often that people will convert from how they were raised.

An Englishman would likely believe something quite different if he had been born and raised in China, an Iranian would believe something different if they had been born and raised in Germany, and an American would likely believe something different if they had been born and raised in Sudan.

Different beliefs, different paths, same destination.

Mankind often has a difficult time accepting the possibility of alternate paths from what one believes... natural arrogance frequently prevents the consideration.

I don't believe "God" has that problem.

Mysticman - Thank you for bringing light and intelligence to this board which is frequently riddled with "book idolatry".

Your approach is fresh, and the path you have chosen is an important one.

Peace...
Thank you for the kind words. I like the discussions here and look forward to seeing you around :)

Peace...