Hello:

If the Super Committee fails, Intrade (http://www.intrade.com/v4/home/) (Laura Ingrahams favorite new website), currently puts the odds at just under three to one in favor of both a Republican takeover of the Senate and retention of the House — 74.4 to 21.5 for the Senate, 72.2 to 28 for the House.

So, why should they give Obama and the Democrats a victory?

excon

I wouldn't... and I can live with the sequestration alternative... no problem!!
Even Pat Toomey is getting seduced by silly talk of "revenue enhancement" i.e. taxes .
There are times to talk taxes when they negotiate a broad tax reform .
But even Keynes himself wouldn't advise raising taxes during an economic downturn .
As you know ,under that theory taxes are raised in recovery and spending cut. Of course the Dems always forget the later .

However , I am not a Keynesian . I don't think that stimulating the economy through government spending works .

History is on my side .To stimulate the economy both Kennedy and Reagan cut the marginal tax rates ,and they ushered in economic expansion.
But ,since any talk of tax rate reduction or tax reform appears to be off the table ,then the best thing to do would be to continue to cut spending . The automatic squestration achieves that even if there is a temporary hit on the Defense budget.

Hello again, tom:

You're just as Keynesian You want to stimulate the economy by tax cuts and the I want to stimulate it by direct injection.. The result is the same, only my way is faster.

excon

Sir Maynard Keynes would never approve of allowing the private sector to stimulate the economy . Mine is an Uncle Miltie solution .
Milton Friedman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_Friedman)

When will you fellows learn that economic theories are like climate change theories, they are theories. Sometimes the observed criteria fits the theory and sometimes it does not. Your economy is over stimulated so further stimulation doesn't work. Tax cuts don't work because the basic fundamental earnings are low, government spending doesn't work because credit isn't available to take advantage of the opportunities and there are too many extra costs associated with employment. Your government has been paper shuffling and calling it stimulus while all the time soaking up more and more of the available money in its deficit.

Your government has been paper shuffling and calling it stimulus while all the time soaking up more and more of the available money in its deficit.

Worse that that... it's been printing money and lying about the inflation it is causing .

Worse that that ....it's been printing money and lying about the inflation it is causing .

But that is what happens when you print money Tom. Economics 101, Cambridge Theory of the Velocity of Money. I know, too basic for your high flying economic planners.

Of course there may be another plan at foot, if inflation becomes rapid enough then currency looses value and all that national debt suddenly goes away, replaced by funny money at $1,000 to the dollar and your leaders could be that niaive.

Now let's all get in on the chorus of "don't cry for me Argentina (or was that america)"

Hello again,

Buy gold.

excon

Hello again, tom:

Although it pains me to do so, I think the Democrats are in for another wupping. I guess it's true, that we have to hit bottom before we can recover... With the Republicans in charge, we'll HIT bottom quicker, that's for sure. But, I digress...

Let me suggest that the libs LOST the battle when they, themselves, accepted the sliminess of the word "liberal". They thought progressive sounded much better. Although, I blame Reagan and the Republicans, their rise coincided with the complete collapse of the Democrats. In fact, the Democrats caving may even be MORE responsible for our plight than the Republicans... Did I say caving?? Hell, SOME Democrats even tried (and are STILL trying), to out Republican the Republicans...

You would call this evidence of the country being center right. I call it a complete abdication of liberalism. But, it's not that liberal ideas have gone out of fashion. It's that the PR machine behind them is long DEAD, while the right wing PR machine is alive and well.

But, there's hope. The OWS'rs. Yeah, they have trouble articulating a complaint... But, so does the ENTIRE Democratic party - with one, and ONLY one exception.. That would be Elizabeth Warren.. Why she scares the right wing, is NOT her liberalness, but her ability to ARTICULATE it, and articulate it well. She's the ONLY one out there doing that...

Maybe if the rest of the Democrats weren't so afraid of their own shadow, we wouldn't be facing the demise our country is about to go through.

That's all. I ain't got no more.

excon

PS> Ok, I got one more thing... If you LIKE the drug testing of the poor that Rick Scott is doing in Florida... If you LIKE the drug war. And, if you LIKE the union busting going on ALL over. And, if you LIKE the pullback of voter and women's rights, you ain't seen NOTHING YET.

If we let these people get their hands on the levers and dials of the federal government, be prepared to relive the 19th century...

Now, I'm done.

You are right about her ideological purity .

For expedience sake Warren is backing away from her statement that she provided the intellectual basis for OWS .It doesn't play well on the campaign and besides,Marx beat her to it. She refused to sign a OWS pledge . But if she is the inspiration of the movement ,then her ideas are the law of the land already because Czar Warren was the mover and shaker in the development of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB).

It is an unaccountable (to Congress) bureaucracy with unparelleled control and discretion over the free market. This is what the OWS wants really . Mission accomplished. Yes I said it. The OWS wants government control of the market place and that is what the Obots are giving them.

The OWS in fact is the perfect fusion of anarchy and statism. The anrchy is their view of property rights and statism at this point is self explanatory.

One thing is clear. The leaders of OWS are perfect Democrats in their hypocrisy.
Golden tents for some Occupiers - NYPOST.com (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/wall_street_cra_pad_s31YWPjPTt0TYuxLGnu7IK)

As far as the "super committee goes... sequestration will reduce spending by $1.2 trillion over a decade . Add to that the $1 trillion over a decade in reductions from the debt limit deal and you have yourself a whopping 1% of GDP in reductions. And that's considered painful cuts ?
The only thing they would agree on would be less cuts ,not more.. and counterproductive tax increases. Both the OWS and the Super committee should go home.

The way I hear it this attempt like most attempts at non partisan politics have failed. I can't image where this leaves you but someone needs to get the axe
Aides: 'Super Committee' likely to announce failure to reach debt deal - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2011/11/20/politics/super-committee/index.html?hpt=hp_t3)

Hello again:

They are going to fail... Is it on purpose? Sure it is for the reasons we've discussed here... It's the Republicans who are doing it.

I think it's a dangerous proposition with serious ramifications that the blinders the right wing wears PREVENTS them from seeing... Is it good to use the American people as fodder so you can win?

excon

Frankly , there was no way this would've been solved this year . Blaming failure is a pure political ploy . The only thing this committee could've accomplished would've been worse than accepting the sequestration cuts.

I don't see it as the Republican's failure either way . From what I hear ,the Dems wouldn't budge on the programs important to them ;and why should they ? Both sides know this will be decided at the polls next year .

They need to get away from these stupid grand bargain ideas. The budget did not become bloated over night and it will not be fixed with one bucket list . The tax code needs to be a separate issue from spending .

Hello tom:

Ok. Who's going to win?

excon

Ask Chris Matthews .
Matthews: Obamas not happy in the White House - Video on mnsbc.com (http://video.msnbc.msn.com/msnbc-tv/45366691)

Hello again, tom:

He's right... But, I don't need to ask Chris Mathews. Obama lost me during the health care debate. He lost me further when he became George W. Bush on steroids. No, I'm not talking about the war over seas... I'm talking about the drug war right here at home. George W. Bush let the states decide the medical marijuana issue... Obama is BUSTING pot smokers at TEN times the rate that Bush did... During an internet conference, where he ASKED people to submit questions, and they asked about pot, he made a joke.

The ONLY reason to support him, is because of the two, and maybe three Supreme Court nominations the next president will make. If president Gingrich decides them, we're headed BACK to the 19th century... I don't say this hysterically. I actually BELIEVE they will repeal ALL the advances of the 20th Century. You do too. Only you HOPE for it.

excon

Advances is such a subjective word .
I think most such 'advances' should have automatic expiration dates to determine if they are effective.

I don't consider the legalized killing of unborn children for any reason an "advance," but I don't believe abortion will ever be overturned. What other "advances" do you think we'd like to repeal? I for one can't wait to return to those coal burning steam belching locomotives.

What other "advances" do you think we'd like to repeal? I for one can't wait to return to those coal burning steam belching locomotives.Hello again, Steve:

You joke about those coal burners, but your guys SAY they will get rid of the EPA... No, really. I HEARD 'em. Plus, you'll take Social Security and Medicare private. Do I think you'll do something along racial lines, like reducing minority's access to voting, and maybe jobs, and maybe schools, and maybe to student loans?? Yeah, I think you will.

You may not think abortion will be outlawed again, but I do. There's others, but that's a start. Ok, let me finish by saying you'll STRENGTHEN the police and support them unequivocally, no matter HOW BRUTAL they are, just like you're doing now. Good for tom.

excon

The EPA line was a mistake . The 3 dept's he'd wack are Energy ,Education and Commerce.

Ron Paul would add FEMA to the chopping block.

As always ,the funding of them is Congressional perusal.

Ok, lemme finish by saying you'll STRENGTHEN the police and support them unequivocally, no matter HOW BRUTAL they are, just like you're doing now. Good for tom

Um, I was interrupted and had not refreshed the page while Smoothy was posting so I made an immediate edit.

P.S. I am a believer in defending my castle but not urinating on others. Besides, I have Molly.

P.P.S. Do you really think I'd support urinating on others? That's disgusting.

P.P.S. Do you really think I'd support urinating on others? That's disgusting.Hello again, Steve:

Nahhh... Smoothy's pissing post, was post my post about your post..

excon

Well I posted about my post about your post about my post, so you should be clear now that I do not support the cops' behavior.

Well, the Super Committee has declared defeat (http://www.deficitreduction.gov/public/index.cfm/pressreleases?ID=fa0e02f6-2cc2-4aa6-b32a-3c7f6155806d). What's next, another downgrade followed by a Republican sweep?

It was a phony kick the can down the road Politboro constructed to be a failure.

What a crock . Even the sequestrations when subject to base line budget rules represents at best a reduction in the rate of increased government spending .

No agreement in the committee would've amounted to similar painful budget decisions. Heck ,chicken littles on both sides call the sequestration cuts draconian.

Hello again,

Ok, the super committee blew it... Next!

I want to address a question to Steve. We've discussed your mortgage interest deduction, that I, as a renter, don't get... One could, and some do, call it a loophole.

For most people, the bulk of their monthly payment is interest, which is ALL presently deductible. Now, instead of taxing the rich a little bit more, the Republicans want to close "loopholes". Guess what loophole they're talking about.

An average monthly payment of, say, $1,500, even if I'm generous, includes a $1,000 going to interest... That's $12,000 a year that used to be deductible and now won't be. At an average 25% tax rate, that's a net $4,000 tax INCREASE for your average American family...

That might include you, Steve, and certainly your children... Wouldn't you rather they tax the rich a little bit more and leave you the hell alone??

I don't even GET the deduction, and I'm on your side. I think, unless you're on the side of the Republicans, in which case I'm not on your side. I'd be on your side as a homeowner who is paying taxes that SHOULD be paid by richer people than my friend Steve.

excon

Not sure I'd call it the GOP plan. It is a plan floated by Toomey ;one of the commissars of the politboro Super Committee ,in a spirit of "compromise " .
What you fail to mention was that the idea he floated was in exchange for lower marginal rates . But it would affect that top tier more so it meets the Dems criteria of screwing the rich.

I'm more concerned with them tinkering with the charitable deduction . The Dems and the President have made it no secret that they desire to control the allocation and distribution of all charitable giving in the US ,be it public or private .

Ultimately I'd like to see the end of all deductions and a similar flattening of the tax rates . But not now. The housing market is in too much flux now to add any more uncertainty . Clearly there are many people who purchased their homes based on the deduction as part of the calculation. It would have a negative impact on an already shaky market to suddenly change the rule. But over time , it would be beneficial to eliminate the deduction in return to a lower base rate of taxes ;and there would be a truer sense of the value of the home.

Yeah we discussed it, and I said my house is paid for so I don't get the deduction. Haven't gotten it in years. Getting rid of it would certainly suck for a lot of people who quite frankly, are in homes they couldn't afford to begin with. But I don't see that happening yet for the reasons tom mentioned.

I'm all for beginning with the obvious things, like cutting out the thousands of unnecessary cellphones in the hands of federal workers, buying base Ford Fiestas instead of Volts, pooling purchases, competitive bidding without the union advantages and taking away credit cards, cutting salaries and perks of congress and their staff, etc. Maybe if the bureaucrats feel a little pain they'll get serious about doing something.

The super committee had to fail, because Grover said so. This ain't about Keynes, or Uncle Miltie, its about GROVER, the real power behind the republicans. He said we were going back to the way it was a hundred years ago, and you better believe he has the power to do it.

You gave it to him when you signed his silly pledge.

Oh come on Tal, this is exactly what Democrats wanted so they could have a campaign theme.

I'm with the President . Let the sequestered cuts begin... the sooner the better . Let's see who blinks 1st. RINOs like McCain are making a mistake whining about defense cuts that Leon Panetta would've done anyway despite his current phoney rhetoric.

I'll say it again.. a $trillion in a decade is chicken feed . It doesn't even stop the growth of spending .

Wonder what they are going to do with all those soldiers they will have to lay off? That's right, all those dishwashing jobs are still open, and the south is looking for a few good men to pick crops since the immigrants are disappearing.

Now tha's mean, Tal, you know the way it goes, the vets get the jobs an someoneelse gets the layoff. That's what the Congress said?

I'm a big fan of the military . But a blind person could see that their budget is bloated and could easily be trimmed without significant cuts in personel... and if there is cuts in personel then they probably don't need them.

By the way... late next month will be the next budget battle as Congress "negotiates " a continuing resolution right before the adjourn for the year .

I'm a big fan of the military . But a blind person could see that their budget is bloated and could easily be trimmedHello again, tom:

Way back in the day, when I was a sailor in the intelligence division aboard ship, I took my turn serving as a mess cook... Now, I didn't cook. I peeled potatoes. The peeled potatoes didn't cost too much because they didn't PAY me too much to peel them... Guess who peels 'em now.

During some cutback in some long past administration, they eliminated ALL the grunt jobs the military did with very low wage workers, and replaced them with very HIGH wage contractors... Yes, the dreaded military contractors... They make, ohhhhh, I don't know, about 20 times what a private makes... Not only do they peel potatoes, they also fight wars, at about 100 times what a soldier or sailor makes..

We've been hearing about them for years... Ain't NOTHING been done about it. That would be NOTHING.

Happy Thanksgiving.

excon

It is a complete waste of resources to train soldiers and sailors to peel potatoes. They could get away with it in your time because there was a draft .

Funny you should bring that up Ex, because I found this list,

List of United States defense contractors - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_defense_contractors),

And guess what, it lead to even more lists.

List of NASA contractors - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NASA_contractors)

No wonder they don't need a draft, they have contractors... outsourcing!!

Wow a revelation!! The military and NASA hires contractors! And here I thought the government built their own space ships . Guess what... all those roads and bridges you want built... here's a secret... the government contracts that work out too...

That's a good thing ain't it? Contracting to Americans is a job!

Unlike ATT having a call center in the Philippines, and no doubt many foreign nations get jobs from contracting, and sub contracting and it's a balancing act to get benefit from.What you thought those bridges would get built with just American building materials?? I doubt we would have enough.

What you thought those bridges would get built with just American building materials??

Strangely I don't object to the use of foreign materials... must be the free trader in me.

The point is we don't need to hire extra military personel to peel potatoes. I don't see why that would be desirable .

Well we know somebody has to peel the potatoes! I suppose that getting someone else to do it, leaves the soldiers free to soldier.

Its an unfortunate thing though that as we trim the fat, downsize, or reorganize, SOMEBODY loses a job over it. To be honest, my pet peeve is a lot of honest blue collar factory work, has been replaced with flipping hamburgers, washing dishes, and turning down beds.

It was those manufacturing jobs after WWII that lead us to the BOOM that made us the most industrious nation in the world, and it's a shame we have allowed ourselves to be downgraded from a leading super power to what we have now.

Not accusing or pointing fingers, simply reminiscing.

I suppose that getting someone else to do it, leaves the soldiers free to soldier.

Yup

It was those manufacturing jobs after WWII that lead us to the BOOM that made us the most industrious nation in the world, and it's a shame we have allowed ourselves to be downgraded from a leading super power to what we have now.
That's "progress" for you .

I don't have an answer except thus ever was.
I would add the caveat that after WWII we were the only game on the planet so it wasn't very tough to compete.

Hello tal:

It IS a lot like crying over spilled milk. The time to STOP the jobs from going overseas was BEFORE they went overseas... But, they're gone now, and they ain't coming back...

We need to invest in the NEW economy. The only one of those I see on the horizon is the GREEN economy... But, the wingers ain't having NONE of that. They're just "HOPING" something happens to "CHANGE" things... Snicker, snicker..

excon

I can agree Ex, because things are changing but some don't want it to.

A tug of war at the moment.

200,000 jobs lost in Ohio alone because the courts stopped a plan to frack. That's 200,000 high paying jobs... jobs Americans will do!!

The Western Hemisphere is the 21st century Persian Gulf of natural gas and oil ;but only the US refuses to participate . Even liberal Canada is on the bandwagon..

The point is we don't need to hire extra military personel to peel potatoes. I don't see why that would be desirable .Hello again, tom:

The potatoes need to be peeled.. We either pay very little to get it done, or we pay a lot. I don't see why it would be desirable to pay a lot.

excon

You think the military is just another civil service job ? It costs a lot of money to train military personel . It wastes a lot of money training soldiers and sailors to peel potatoes and run kitchen services when there are food service companies that can do it better and cheaper. It saves the government money to contract services to the private sector .That's just the fact.

That's just the fact.Hello again, tom:

That's what they SAY. I don't believe it.

excon

Neither do I,

President Puts Defense Contractors on Notice: Crackdown on Costs Is Coming - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123638888403658683.html)

Taxpayers Get Stuck Saving Defense Contractors' Pensions | Mother Jones (http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/11/defense-pentagon-contractor-pension)

Defense Contractor Fraud | Federal and State Claims Act Resources (http://www.falseclaimsact.com/common_frauds_defense_contractor.php)

Medicare Fraud & Healthcare Fraud - Investigating Qui Tam Law (http://www.warrenbensonlaw.com/defense-contractor-fraud/)

Counterfeit parts threatening DOD supply chain; contractors to be held more responsible -- Washington Technology (http://washingtontechnology.com/Articles/2011/11/08/SASC-hearing-counterfeit-parts-DOD-supply-chain.aspx?admgarea=TC_CONTRACTNEWS&p=1)

Add that to the "60 Minutes" piece two months ago, which I can't get a link for, we have a lot more facts to add to the food of thought. Some menu, huh!

Indeed all contractors should be put on notice that budgetary priorities means that pencils will be sharpened and fat trimmed from the budget... I already said defense is not immune... all bureucrats should simularily be put on notice..

Mother Jones may single out defense contractors ,but it may be a surprise that that is standard issue for all government contracts going back many years. Of course it is absurd and should be a procedural change and certainly eliminated from future contracts .

Have you fellows ever conceived of the possibility that is the problem is the system, in this case the military system which is unable the conceive of the concept of cost.

Look the way to deal with bureaucrats whether military or not is to tell them that the budget is cut to a specific figure and tell them to prioritise to reach that figure. We all know that there is waste and inefficiency no matter where you go. How hard can it be?

Why limit it to defense ? There is not an agency in government that isn't bloated and an inefficiently run organization. It's the nature of the beast. THAT IS WHY YOU WANT TO LIMIT THE SIZE AND SCOPE OF THE GOVERNMENT .

How about effective, and efficient, Tom, and cuts where cuts can be made based on efficiency rather than size.

Think surgeon and not butcher. Government is not business, and you can't run it that way. No more than you can run your household like one just because the priorities for government, business, and house holds are vastly different, and have to be managed differently.

Business doesn't care about people, they care about profits, and will shed people to achieve that goal. Government has to service people no matter the bottom line, and households have to sustain, and maintain people, no matter what happens, no matter what governments, and business does.

No matter how you dice it, it comes down to money, and how well that money is circulated. Any dynamic that stops that free circulation, hurt all, business, government, AND households (people), and NO corporations are not people, they are business.

In this manner we can prioritize as such,

Households (people), government that serves the people, and business, that facilitate circulation. If they don't function well together, we have what we have now, a recession with a lot of poor people who's number grows as we speak.

If you don't want to print more money, then you must circulate better what you have. Find the blockage, and free the circulation, and then send some of those robbers to jail.

That's the bottom line in my eyes, we got robbed big time, and we the people haven't formed a posse or told the sheriff to get busy and get the robbers.

Follow the money, it's a very bright paper trail.

Some need a surgeons scapel ;some need a cleaver or chain saw ;some need amputation.

200,000 jobs lost in Ohio alone because the courts stopped a plan to frack. That's 200,000 high paying jobs ....jobs Americans will do !!!!

The Western Hemisphere is the 21st century Persian Gulf of natural gas and oil ;but only the US refuses to participate . Even liberal Canada is on the bandwagon ..

Hi Tom,

You don't think that's the end of it do you?

Don't worry these corporations will be working hard in a number of areas to over ride state and local authorities. They will win through in the end. Too many lawyers, too many resources and too much money.

How about these corporations use 'personhood' as a starting point for their campaign against the wishes of local communities who are worried about the impact of fracking?

Tut

Almost all the communities that are affected are basically living in an economic depression and have been for much longer than the 2008 bank failures.
Go ask the people of Ohio ,Western Pennsylvania ,and upstate NY if they want drilling .

Ask them if the want the same economic opportunities that the folks of North Dakota have.

Thanks to production of the Bakken shale fields, North Dakota enjoys the highest employment rate in the country. New home construction is booming, and builders are having a difficult time keeping up with consumer demand. And while many states are facing historic budget deficits, North Dakota is reaping the benefits of growing oil revenues that have generated back-to-back budget surpluses.

In Pennsylvania, development of Marcellus shale gas has already translated into 140,000 new jobs and $11.2 billion in economic output during 2010, according to a recent Penn State University analysis. And beneath much of eastern Ohio lies the relatively untapped Utica Shale formation, which the Ohio Oil and Gas Energy Education Program estimates will create 204,000 new jobs in a state that experienced the third-highest job loss during since the recession began. Moreover, economic output will increase by more than $23 billion and wages by $12.3 billion during the same time frame, the program concludes.

Energy Production Is Turning Economic Lights Back On - Energy Intelligence (usnews.com) (http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/energy-intelligence/2011/11/23/energy-production-is-turning-economic-lights-back-on)


Gas fields are taking shape in the rural counties southeast of Cleveland, and that's no wind farm. Gas is a proven fossil fuel with a global market. In natural gas, some see an economic catalyst with the strength and reach to spark an industrial renaissance.

Already, steel mills are expanding in anticipation of a shale gas boom in Ohio, Pennsylvania and West Virginia. Spin-off industries are expected to spring up to supply the machinery, laborers, lodging and chemistry that energy production demands, and to exploit a new local power source.

"We'll now possess a cheaper, dependable, industrial fuel. That's hugely important for us," says Edward Hill, an economics professor at Cleveland State University.

As gas flows, Ohio can expect to see new pipelines, new refineries and new petrochemical plants, Hill and others say, as well as expansion by energy-dependent manufacturers.
Each week, residents of Northeast Ohio see new evidence of the economic potential. Youngstown has been watching a massive new steel mill rise from desolation. Marathon Oil is expanding its capacity to accept oil -- Ohio oil -- at its refinery in Canton. Republic Steel announced it is reinvesting in Lorain. Earlier this month, hundreds lined up at a hotel in suburban Akron for a novel event: a job fair for the gas rigs.
http://blog.cleveland.com/business_impact/print.html?entry=/2011/11/some_think_a_gas_boom_can_reig.html


Natural gas and crude oil industry could help create and support more than 200,000 Ohio-based jobs from the leasing, royalties, exploration, drilling, production and pipeline construction activities for the Utica shale reserve. The state could experience an overall wage and personal-income boost of $12 billion by 2015 from industry spending.

The study also projects royalty payments to landowners, schools, businesses and communities could increase to as much as $1.6 billion by 2015—a number that exceeds the total amount of royalties distributed by Ohio’s natural gas and crude oil industry in the last decade. Total tax revenue from oil and gas exploration and development in the Utica shale formation from 2011 until 2015, including severance, commercial activity, ad valorem (property), federal, state and local taxes, is projected to be approximately $479 billion. Industry expenditures related to Utica shale development could generate approximately $12.3 billion in gross state product and result in a statewide output or sales of more than $23 billion.
http://www.oogeep.org/downloads/file/Economic%20Impact%20Study/OOGEEP%20Economic%20%20Impact%20Study%20Release%20 September%202011.pdf

The environmentalists don't have a case . The impact is minimal . The fracking occures well below(thousands of feet) where the ground water and aquifers sit. This is not new technology . Fracking has occurred in over a million wells in the US for over 6decades. There has never been a case of ground water contamination where hydraulic fracking is utilized .


EPA also reviewed incidents of drinking water well contamination believed to be associated with hydraulic fracturing and found no confirmed cases that are linked to fracturing fluid injection into CBM wells or subsequent underground movement of fracturing fluids. Although thousands of CBM wells are fractured annually, EPA did not find confirmed evidence that drinking water wells have been contaminated by hydraulic fracturing fluid injection into CBM wells.
http://www.epa.gov/safewater/uic/pdfs/cbmstudy_attach_uic_exec_summ.pdf

So if it is a proven clean method going back 6 decades then what is achieved by the President delying a decision for 6 more months ? Could it be that he wants to make a dramatic announcement in the spring of a Presidential campaign will at a campaign stop in a key swing state like Ohio ? Nahh . He wouldn't delay the creation of 200,000 jobs for political reasons

I don't know where you get your scientific facts on this but my own experiences and research tell a different story, and with the millions that are affected by soil, and water contamination being newly identified, caution is the ONLY approach, like what we should have done with asbestos, and we know how that turned out.

'Fracking' for natural gas is polluting ground water, study concludes - CSMonitor.com (http://www.csmonitor.com/Environment/2011/0509/Fracking-for-natural-gas-is-polluting-ground-water-study-concludes)

Impact of Oil & Gas Drilling on Ground Water | eHow.com (http://www.ehow.com/info_8404961_impact-gas-drilling-ground-water.html)

Fact Check: Contamination Of Groundwater By Fracking Was Documented In 1987 | ThinkProgress (http://thinkprogress.org/green/2011/08/03/287105/fact-check-contamination-of-groundwater-by-fracking-was-documented-in-1987/)

Duke University Study Connects Water Contamination to Fracking Natural Gas Wells - Natural Gas Watch.org (http://www.naturalgaswatch.org/?p=381)

And the case can be made that the decades of sub standard testing and data, have left many coommunitie already with the need to ship bottle water to towns and homes. Lets be clear, they are just learning of all the chemicals used in frakking, and the resulting heavy metals that are not tested for yet.

Tap Water Contamination - Tap Water in 42 States Contaminated by Chemicals (http://environment.about.com/od/waterpollution/a/tap_water_probe.htm)

Ummm mine was from the EPA site

Actually I have read that there is an abundance of dihydrogen monoxide in the aquifers affected .

My position is that unless you specifically look for a particular toxin, you won't find them.

There are many we should be looking for.

It's easy... 90 .5 % of fracking involves water and about 9% sand... the rest ,about a half percent is a combination of sodium chloride ,ethylene glycol ,borate salts ,and sodium and potassium carbonates.. all items commenly used in other household and food processing .

The EPA and the Clean Water Act have strict provisions on the recovery and recycling or storage of recovered fracking fluids... and it is not a continuos process. It ends when the shale has been fractured and the natural gas starts being extracted.
"It's our experience in Pennsylvania that we have not had one case in which the fluids used to break off the gas from 5,000 to 8,000 feet (1,500-2,400 m) underground have returned to contaminate ground water." John Hanger, former secretary of the Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection .

There have been some cases where methane migration from the fracturing has caused wells to be contaminated . These are rare cases .

| Water Contamination From Fracking (Hydraulic Fracturing) (http://www.water-contamination-from-shale.com/)


The major concern with shale gas drilling is the chemicals used in the process. Because the federal Energy Policy Act of 2005 exempted hydraulic fracturing from regulation under the Safe Drinking Water Act, shale gas drillers don’t have to disclose what chemicals they use. A study conducted by Theo Colburn, PhD, the director of the Endocrine Disruption Exchange in Paonia, Colorado, has so far identified 65 chemicals that are probable components of the fracking fluids used by shale gas drillers. These chemicals included benzene, glycol-ethers, toluene, 2-(2-methoxyethoxy) ethanol, and nonylphenols. All of these chemicals have been linked to health disorders when human exposure is too high.


We have here in Texas more and more rural communitie with toxins so high that the drinking water is flammable.

Scientific Study Links Flammable Drinking Water to Fracking - ProPublica (http://www.propublica.org/article/scientific-study-links-flammable-drinking-water-to-fracking/single)

Flammable drinking water sparks explosions over Barnett Shale drilling TexasVox: The Voice of Public Citizen in Texas (http://texasvox.org/2010/12/10/flammable-drinking-water-sparks-explosions-over-barnett-shale-drilling/)

Big Downside to Fracking: Flammable Water | MyFDL (http://my.firedoglake.com/ruthcalvo/2010/12/09/big-downside-to-fracking-flammable-water/)

As we see this isn't recent, nor isolated.

So it's a case of stop the fracking fracking

No it's a case of more research and development, and a lot more science. But its probably easier, and more profitable to defund the EPA, and a few more agencies.

Bottled water any one?

T al don't be niaive this is another environment disaster on a grand scale presented to us by the "scientists" who so generously gave us the Bopal disaster, the Gulf disaster, the nuclear meltdowns and so many other failures to assess the risks and take adequate precautions or should we just blame the american way "capitalism" which so many nations have misguidedly adopted. We have this fracking problem here too with vast areas of prime agricultural land at risk all in the name of a safer environment and reduction in CO2

You are the niaive one .You think windmills and solar panels made with stuff mined near someone else's drinking water is the solution to the 21st century energy needs. You are just another NIMBY.. At least in the US there are some environmental controls . I guess you don't care in the least that some 3rd world nation is getting their raw materials extracted with no safety measures at all.
There is no such a thing as clean energy . All you are doing is exporting the problems elsewhere.

I am willing to bet that any of those environmental problems being identified are mostly ones from the early days of fracking .
The only problems related to drilling are engineering challenges.


I'm looking for energy independence or as close to it as possible. Yeah it makes much more sense to continue to rely on foreign supplies travelling through the gulf of Hormuz ;or strip mined rare earth minerals dominated by another nation that is at best an economic rival .

Almost all the communities that are affected are basically living in an economic depression and have been for much longer than the 2008 bank failures.
Go ask the people of Ohio ,Western Pennsylvania ,and upstate NY if they want drilling .

Ask them if the want the same economic opportunities that the folks of North


I know there are arguments for and against drilling and I know people want the jobs. It's a good point, but that's not the point I am making.

The question I am asking regards local authorities (rightly or wrongly) making a decision based on local legislature that drilling should not that these local decisions are overturned?

Corporations have the power, influence and money to challenge local and state regulations. Not only do they have the power but they will probably win through in the end.

The question is really about local and state authorities having the power to make their own decisions (again, rightly or wrongly). A good starting point would be to give local authorities some short of chance by getting rid of this,'personhood' nonsense.

Tut

you are the niaive one .You think windmills and solar panels made with stuff mined near someone elses drinking water is the solution to the 21st century energy needs. You are just another NIMBY .. At least in the US there are some environmental controls .



Hi Tom,

I thought you were against regulations.

P.S. What is a NIMBY?


Tut

It is silly to say I'm against regulations as if that is an absolute. If that is what you take from my positions then you aren't listening . I've clearly targeted needless and excessive regulations... not ALL regulations .
Good grief... you were the last person I thought I'd have to explain that to.

NIMBY /// not in my back yard .

Corporations have the power, influence and money to challenge local and state regulations. Not only do they have the power but they will probably win through in the end.

The question is really about local and state authorities having the power to make their own decisions (again, rightly or wrongly). A good starting point would be to give local authorities some short of chance by getting rid of this,'personhood' nonsense.


You are 100 % wrong about that .It is exactly at the local level where the corps often get stopped . I have attended many local meetings where the interests of the people are at odds with the plans of the business interests and more often than not ;when the people attend the local meetings and let their will be known... they prevail.

It is when decisions are made by nameless faceless bureaucrats in Washington is when the will of the people is unheard or ignored .

Oh geez, the Kochs bought a bunch of candidates in the Carolinas and turned back the clocks on the SCHOOL BOARD, of the largest most progressive, school district in the country. They and a few of their friends, and governors have started all kinds of state uprisings, like in Wisconsin, and Ohio, so don't just look to Washington for blame, without pointing to states and cities with this personhood.

They run the states and cities, and have made inroads into the congress, and are going for the White House, to rig the game in their own favor. Maybe you should look deeper into your own thinking and see they AIN"T on your side either.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/14/the-battle-for-wake-count_n_926799.html

What you thought the Kochs just wanted Wisconsin, naw, they want it all even IRAN.

If the Koch Bros inc are a corporate "person" who don't have rights ,then so are the public employee unions that own the local pols.

By the way ;in your attempt to demonize them you do realize that they are small pototoes compared to Dem corporate sponsors like George Soros and GE (not to mention the companies that the President bought with taxpayer money like GM and their duel auto/ barbecue 21st century electric cars )

if the Koch Bros inc are a corporate "person" who don't have rights ,then so are the public employee unions that own the local pols.

You would love to make that comparison, but there is none. The Kochs represent their interest, and public unions represent ME! Hard working, blue collar workers, who use to make up the now dwindling middle class to get a FAIR standard of living to raise and educate our families. We are who the Kochs lay off, send our jobs overseas, when they need a few bucks. Hey the locals have to get votes from somewhere to represent OUR interest. Geez Tom, that's the way its supposed to be!!

This is America, NOT Kochland, and rich guys don't run this, THE PEOPLE DO! It doesn't say that all men are equal, and whomever has more money is MORE equal.
When the many serve the few, that slavery, and I know I have told you that on more than a few Occasions.

Now maybe its not right to have a few rich people on our side too, but what's a guy to do? Get rid of YOURS, I get rid of mine, but until then tell your guys to keep there paws off my local election. You conservative slaves crack me up! You get mad when you don't get your way in everything, all the time.

I got to go burn my dishes!

you are the niaive one .You think windmills and solar panels made with stuff mined near someone elses drinking water is the solution to the 21st century energy needs. You are just another NIMBY .. At least in the US there are some environmental controls . I guess you don't care in the least that some 3rd world nation is getting their raw materials extracted with no safety measures at all.
There is no such a thing as clean energy . All you are doing is exporting the problems elsewhere.

I am willing to bet that any of those environmental problems being identified are mostly ones from the early days of fracking .
The only problems related to drilling are engineering challenges.


I'm looking for energy independence or as close to it as possible. Yeah it makes much more sense to continue to rely on foreign supplies travelling through the gulf of Hormuz ;or strip mined rare earth minerals dominated by another nation that is at best an economic rival .

Decided to have a rant again did we Tom? As far as we are concerned the problems with fracking are ground water contamination and destruction of productive land through salination. Some think this preferrable to digging vast holes in the ground and disturbing the top soil but both processes destroy the agricultural potential of productive areas or pollute the catchment aresa for water supply. Relying on the Gulf of anywhere isn't a problem where I live and rare earths are found in other places.

What in fact you are complaining about are the results of that capitalist free market system you espouse.

The only reason economic rivals exist is that you make them so, they could just as easily be economic partners, however there is no doubt that we need to find new ways to provide our energy needs and the existing methods, both old and new, are not as efficient as we would like.

I would like to see my nation solve this problem by using its vast reserves of uranium. It is a good solution as no other nation's environment is affected.

if the Koch Bros inc are a corporate "person" who don't have rights ,then so are the public employee unions that own the local pols




Sounds good to me.

However, it will never change because we know who has the most to lose by getting rid of corporate personhood.




btw ;in your attempt to demonize them you do realize that they are small pototoes compared to Dem corporate sponsors like George Soros and GE (not to mention the companies that the President bought with taxpayer money like GM and their duel auto/ barbeque 21st century electric cars )



I thought you said I was 100 percent wrong? This examples makes me less than 100 percent wrong.

Do I have to search through Google to find examples of corporations making legal complaints against some local authority on the basis that the law is violating 'ITS' civil and constitutional rights.

Tut

The free market capitalistic system is about extracting profits, by any means necessary. They won't pend a dime to make it a SAFE process.

But that's more a reflection of the people who use it, not the system itself. That what they sqwuack about when they say regulations hold them back. Its no secret that they would rather settle wrongful death suits, and pay non compliance fines, than save a few lives, and spend money on safety.

I hope you guys do better Clete.

The free market capitalistic system is about extracting profits, by any means neccesary. They won't pend a dime to make it a SAFE process.

But thats more a reflection of the people who use it, not the system itself. That what they sqwuack about when they say regulations hold them back. Its no secret that they would rather settle wrongful death suits, and pay non compliance fines, than save a few lives, and spend money on safety.

I hope you guys do better Clete.

Tal, we are just as much caught in this mesh as you are. All we hear here is the market mechanism and how it solves problems, why it is going to reduce carbon emissions by 80%, provide new industries, full employment, innovation and lead us into a utopian future and if that doesn't do it then new and innovative taxes will.. .

But we are seeing a move for a moritorium on fracking, moves to restore the Murray-Darling which will mean less water for big cotton and intensive agriculture and the opening of uranium mines

Don't concern yourself.. I'm sure red Julia is on board with destroying this industry that would not only be a viable alternative to coal ,but would also be a valuable export commodity .
If I was a conspiracy theorists I'd think this ruin of the western economy was intentional .

It was though Tom, the global ecomomy was ruined by greed. Hey it wasn't my idea to scam everybody, and stuff the loot in their mattresses!

How did they miss you??

If I was a conspiracy theorists I'd think this ruin of the western economy was intentional .

Well Tom you may well be right, someone must have gained out of this but with the interconnection of economies these days no one can escape the pain. You have yet the realise that unbridled capitalism is the cause coupled with government interference in that market mechanism you love so well..

But Europe is a horse of a different colour, so your conspiracy theory doesn't do so well. No, Tom, we will just have to agree we did this, no, you did this to yourselves. I blame the political system because when it comes down to it, it is impotent.

On the other hand a nicely controlled economy sits a beacon in these troubled times but you keep to your tired views, they have served you well

Tal, we are just as much caught in this mesh as you are. All we hear here is the market mechanism and how it solves problems, why it is going to reduce carbon emissions by 80%, provide new industries, full employment, innovation and lead us into a utopian future and if that doesn't do it then new and innovative taxes will.. .. ..

but we are seeing a move for a moritorium on fracking, moves to restore the Murray-Darling which will mean less water for big cotton and intensive agriculture and the opening of uranium mines

LOL, I find it amusing an island is short of water, but there is technology that can help with the crops, and still have plenty of water for the wild life.

How Is Salt Water Filtered into Fresh Water? | eHow.com (http://www.ehow.com/how-does_5143986_salt-water-filtered-fresh-water.html)

Unbridled capitalism... you are still stuck on strawman arguments .

Nope, problem solving through technology, and effective management of those technologies.

Actually capitalism inhibits technology.

LOL, I find it amusing an island is short of water, but there is technology that can help with the crops, and still have plenty of water for the wild life.

How Is Salt Water Filtered into Fresh Water? | eHow.com (http://www.ehow.com/how-does_5143986_salt-water-filtered-fresh-water.html)

Yes nice to know about technology but when we speak of salinity we don't just speak about salt water but about a rising water table bringing salt to the surface and destroying the viability of agricultural land. This is what increasingly happens with large scale irrigation. When we speak about the Murray-Darling system we are not speaking about wildlife but down stream availability of water. During the recent drought, the flow at the mouth of the river system, one of the larger river systems in the world, stopped. Could you imagine what would happen if the flow at the mouth of the Mississippi stopped? We are speaking of a river system that was once nagivable for thousands of kilometers. Can you realise the volumes of water we are taking about?

I can imagine what a political football it is when politicians scramble for solution.

You are a young nation, there is time to grow and learn, unlike the duffs here who rather make money than figure out real solutions.

I can imagine what a political football it is when politicians scramble for solution.

You are a young nation, there is time to grow and learn, unlike the duffs here who rather make money than figure out real solutions.

Tal size isn't the issue nor is money we are the 16th economy in the world, much bigger than our relative population and yes, we are young but only in respect of our current political structure, our roots are much the same as yours. The nature of our land means we can't grow like you did because we don't have the water resources like you do, no furtile great plains, you see, so all the ideas you come up with are tried here but many fail because this is a different place, might as well be a preparation for Mars

I meant grow in the way you deal with your problems, and obstacles Clete. Mans survival is his adaptability, and problem solving.

The land is what it is and you have to take what you have. Pretty obvious you are not a techno geek, or engineer. Nor can you think in those terms, but I have no doubt someone is working on the problem and despite past failures, they are still looking for better solutions.

I am surprised the Chinese haven't given you some good ideas since they have been working with the same issues that you have.

http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/aib775/aib775o.pdf

Problems of the irrigation system in the Turpan Basin of China (http://library.witpress.com/pages/PaperInfo.asp?PaperID=17000)

Your problems are not unique Clete, nor are the solutions, or the politics.

Hi Tal

I'm sure the Chinese have wonderful ideas but again a land with plenty of water, maybe Israel can give us some ideas, the problems would be closer. Look, we have some great ideas of our own, but not the national will to implement them, and, of course, too much environmental opposition. Engineering solutions can create their own problems, our Snowy scheme had to be reversed 50 years on to restore environmental flows to the rivers, a grand engineering plan that failed to live up to its potential

LOL, Where you say political will, I say its about the MONEY. I find it interesting that so many get the money out of politics amendments to our Constitution have started to replace the balanced budget amendment talks, tax reforms and the like that politicians are talking about.

That's the bottom line to inability to solve many nations problems, the money that's involved. Solutions are jut to expensive... or o they say. I say no solution, or inadequate ones are even MORE expensive.

The great difference between our nations is in fact the political system and the level of corruption in high places. We don't seem to have that, what ever it is, for nation building. It isn't Money, our government is investing in the NBN, why I don't know, but it is billions but try to get support for a dam or any other large scale inferstructure. It takes decades. You may find it strange but our mountains are still the barrier they basically have been since settlement, we are a country 12, 000 miles long. You said something about an island a little while ago. Don't think island, think continent. My own state is bigger than Texas

Then it's a young island country. Still has to grow, and evolve, as do we all, past our national issues. We can and will, have before. So will you, think centuries not decades.

And many issues to solve, it never stops. One thing or another.

I think it is time to raise the Eureka Flag again
Eureka Flag (http://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://eurekasydney.com/images/eureka_flag.jpg&imgrefurl=http://eurekasydney.com/flag.html&h=283&w=432&sz=35&tbnid=CkuqgOw6yJGFYM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=137&prev=/search%3Fq%3Deureka%2Bflag%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=eureka+flag&docid=37rNfYgOW7LAeM&sa=X&ei=7ZjVTojEHq6ZiAf2k8CnDQ&ved=0CEQQ9QEwAQ&dur=5054)

" WE SWEAR BY THE SOUTHERN CROSS TO STAND TRULY BY EACH OTHER, AND FIGHT TO DEFEND OUR RIGHTS AND LIBERTIES."


What we need is to sweep all those procrastinating politicians into the sea. We do have some will that you seem to lack over there our Treasurer has announced sweeping cuts to the budget and it won't get any argument from anyone. Can we send him over to lead your super committee?