Hi There,

My husband and I are tiling our new custom built shower stall with Subway tile and we have been told 2 different things to do... can someone offer a tie breaker solution for us. Some people tell us that we must use the Orange Membrane (often seen on Holmes on Holmes) sold at Home Depot (for hundreds of dollars), to further water proof our Shower Stall Walls. Others say that the concrete board we have used is sufficient and we don't need anything further as the tile mastic is waterproof enough. My husband and I are worried (after all our hard work) that our shower walls will leak or get water damaged if we do not use the VERY PRICEY orange membrane product. We are happy with just using the concrete board backer if this is sufficient... we do not feel the need to go above and beyond if it is NOT necessary. Are we fine to lay our tiles directly onto the concrete board? Our Tile Guy said he would use AcrylPro to adhere the tiles to the wall. Is this the best solution or should he seal up the seams with a thinset mortar first?

I would use the waterproofing membrane on the walls.

Your tiler though should be able to advise what is best but in my opinion the tile mastic is not sufficient as waterproofing.

I must tell you though that I come from Australia where building codes and common practices are most likely different to where you are from!

Thanks for the advice, although this is not the answer I was hoping for as it just means more $$$$. Arghh! Thank you though. I appreciate your opinion.

Is the cement backer board up already?

If not, you can put poly sheeting on first, overlapping the edge of the tub and then the board. You also need to tape the seams between the cement board pieces with alkali-resistant fiberglass tape and thinset. Be sure to use a powdered thinset rather than anything premixed.

Sorry, but another question. Are you talking about Redguard or Ditra? Did you do the shower pan, etc, or are you just doing the tiling?

I want to tile part of my existing shower stall at the bottom half aprox. About 3 or 4 feet from the shower base. The drain area is sound, What steps do I take to waterproof the walls and srounding lower half from water leakage.
The lower part that I retile will be a different pattern and design, to make motre attractive looking
Thanks for help

Hi There,

My husband and I are tiling our new custom built shower stall with Subway tile and we have been told 2 different things to do....can someone offer a tie breaker solution for us. Some people tell us that we must use the Orange Membrane (often seen on Holmes on Holmes) sold at Home Depot (for hundreds of dollars), to further water proof our Shower Stall Walls. Others say that the concrete board we have used is sufficient and we don't need anything further as the tile mastic is waterproof enough. My husband and I are worried (after all our hard work) that our shower walls will leak or get water damaged if we do not use the VERY PRICEY orange membrane product. We are happy with just using the concrete board backer if this is sufficient...we do not feel the need to go above and beyond if it is NOT necessary. Are we fine to lay our tiles directly onto the concrete board? Our Tile Guy said he would use AcrylPro to adhere the tiles to the wall. Is this the best solution or should he seal up the seams with a thinset mortar first?
Meagan,
Use a single pre-molded shower pan with drain center hole. The base will have a top 1/2" lip. The wall covering overlaps the lip before tiling. The most economical installation using a ferro cement board (Wonderboard, Hardiboard, etc.) as a wall surround is easiest with a Quickset pre-mix filler. This is done to create a level scratch coat surface at joints and corners. After the scratch coat is cured and smoothed out, trowel on an even mastic sealer adhesive layer for setting the tile into the mastic. Let that set as per the manufacturer recommended curing time before using a final grout between the tiles.

If you are using an acrylic type scratch coat for sealer and adhesive, some tilers will fill the tile spaces at the same time. This can make cleanup difficult as if the tile is not set first, it will move if not set properly. The cement surround will be impervious to leaks if done adequately. Even if polysheet is used behind the boards on the wall and a leak or sweating does occur, the polysheet will still force water to migrate to below the pan floor. Surface finish sealing is most important to make sure a grout seal is properly cured and maintained. Nm

You can also use Roofing Felt to provide a Water Proof seal behind your backer board. Just make sure you overlap it by at least a quarter and if you are still worried use some Roofing cement to "glue" the felt together. It's a LOT cheaper than the membrane.

I agree if you have a leftover roll of felt on hand, otherwise 6 mil polysheet costs less than purchasing a roll of 15 lb felt. Hope this helps. Nm

Personally I wouldn't worry about it. The cement board is impervious to water. Seal joints with thin set and nylon tape and you will be fine. The tile and grout will repel water, the cement board will not absorb any water that should get through a grout joint. Wasn't long ago that we were using drywall as a backerboard, now we are using impervious cement board and someone wants to add a plastic liner behind that. What's next, waterproofing the plastic.

As far a Holmes on Homes and other TV shows, remember that these are TV productions, put out for you entertainment, not necessarly you education. Some are about as realistic as the reality shows and the old time westerns. Guess who sponsers the production, the same people who make the expensive orange stuff.

Harold is correct, you do not need any membrane at all if you used cement board, wonderboard or Hardibacker board, etc... The orange stoff at Home Depot is for flooring on concrete. Concrete floors will always crack and the orange stuff allows a very small amount of slip to absorb the cracks movement, not needed for a shower stall. Use modified thinset to set your tiles. I also recommend a epoxy stain proof grout.

No extra membranes, plastic, roofing felt or otherwise is necessary by any means, the backboard IS your waterproof membrane, its mildew and mold resistant and water isn't going through tile... if its thourghly grouted properly and the grout is then sealed at least twice with "grout sealer" no water will ever make it even to the backerboard, let alone behind that.

As long as you used "green board" sheet rock, all you would need behind the hardi-backer or mortar bed would be 15lb felt paper. Over lap it at least 6 inches. Make sure it overlaps the membrane that you used to waterproof the shower pan also.

I'm going to have to disagree with a lot of what's said here. I've taken out too many poorly built shower and tub surrounds, and even ones that have been built seemingly well. They've all had water problems. Granted, some are minor, but the point is, they're still not totally waterproof. First: ceramic tile is impermiable to water, natural stone is not though. Second, grout is porous and even if you seal it over and over again it's going to allow water to get through eventually (I will agree that ceramic tile plus epoxy grout is a great solution). I agree that the new backer boards are great and you should NEVER put green board in a shower or tub area. But even those backer boards will accept water eventually and allow it to travel through. Yes, they won't mold and they'll hold up, but they are not a "membrane". That said, the orange membrane you're talking about that is made by Kerdi-Schluter is a great product. Yes, it's not super cheap, but it works great and is truly a membrane. The other option is to use what used to be only commercially available but now you can get at Home Depot. It's a paint on membrane, elastomeric. You paint/roll on several thick coats on top of your backerboard, then tile right on top of it. It's waterproof and flexible enough to withstand movement. Again, you're dealing with water here and that sort of damage is too expensive to risk it. Do it right the first time or you'll pay even more for it in the long run.

That said, the orange membrane you're talking about that is made by Kerdi-Schluter is a great product. Yes, it's not super cheap, but it works great and is truly a membrane. The other option is to use what used to be only commercially available but now you can get at Home Depot. It's a paint on membrane, elastomeric. You paint/roll on several thick coats on top of your backerboard, then tile right on top of it. It's waterproof and flexible enough to withstand movement. Again, you're dealing with water here and that sort of damage is too expensive to risk it. Do it right the first time or you'll pay even more for it in the long run.

Thank you DBJake,

All the pro's that have made their statements in this thread about how "it's done" probably have not done enough remodels to see what moisture infiltration can damage over a period regardless of many manufacturer's claims about their product methods. As mentioned in post #7 February 2007, I have commented almost the same thing you are stating. I did not mention that the Quickset product was a waterproofing polymer coating that is similar to the elastomeric membrane that you mention. The major difference being that the polymer Quickset is troweled onto the backer surface prior to waterproof mastic cementing of the tile.
One thing that I might add is that most grout sealing products are not permanent and need re-coating periodically, especially if the existing grout is cleaned with caustic chemicals.

I have a secret method of using a 100% Silicone rubber coating over the newly cured
Grout that most tilers have never tried because the product has not been promoted for such use. (Dow Corning is the sole manufacturer and the inventor of Silicone rubber that was first used in AeroSpace applications as far back as 1963 for sealing and attachment of electronic components.) There are grouted countertops I have sealed over 20 years ago that are still intact to this day. The backing edges were also sealed with GE RTV32 silicone rubber compound without any signs of water leakage.

Quality products with careful application will always be the key to a secure and lasting installation as DBJake states. nmwirez

DBjake and nmwirez...

DBJAKE said, "The other option is to use what used to be only commercially available but now you can get at Home Depot. It's a paint on membrane, elastomeric. You paint/roll on several thick coats on top of your backerboard, then tile right on top of it. It's waterproof and flexible enough to withstand movement"...

It's exactly how I do it... ;) Like you guys are suggesting... cement board is NOT water-proof... only water-resistant and over time water does penetrate and can break cement board down creating home for mold to grow, etc...

I have noticed that most people simply will not go to the extra expense or time needed to roll this stuff on... but as a contractor that has to guarantee all my shower installations I never fail to use!

In fact, it's when I bring up the water-proof membrane that I notice most of my customers raise an eyebrow and a... knowone else mentioned that stuff... ;) that I seem to close the deal and get the job!

I also notice that everyone does things differently... just that I am a big fan of doing it same as you guys!

Good job guys!

MARK

Wonderboard and mesh tape are fine set in latex thinset works well, put plastic behind it or felt into the pan. The Holmes way is a great application method, but many would consider it overkill, the orange stuff does prevent tile shifting and cracking if there are other issues. Remember new wood studs can shrink causing separation at joints. It always pays to do a job right, especially when you are the final consumer.

I have done enough. If you want a good install job, do it right.

Ditra is that "orange stuff" your were speaking about. It is good. Kerdi shower kit is very good. When you know a product is used by people who have installed enough, then you know you will get good results.

Look up the kerdi shower video.

Very interesting reading. Thank you all. Now here's what I would like to get away with while I have the time over Thanksgiving :-). We took off the white plastic sheeting that was on the shower already and just have drywall behind the shower. I don't want to add backerboard to the drywall because it will raise the surface by approximately 3/4 inch--too far into the small bathtub, and it would cause a troublesome lip at the back wall. So here's my suggested solution--seal the drywall with paint on membrane, elastomeric; place the Ditra on top an tile on top of that. Does that seem reasonable? I can also try an epoxy grout. (It just won't be possible to take out the dry wall and go from the ground up although I appreciatethathis is preferable. Thanks, Robert

I make a great living fixing these showers you hacks install, so keep using felt, trash bags, poly. Moisture DOES penetrate grout joints, and cement board DOES retain water. I've been using Kerdi membrane on shower walls for years. The stuff works! You get what you pay for. What's the cost of redoing the shower in ten years? How the health issues from the black mold growing in your walls because you didn't want to spend the extra $200 bucks. I see it every day!

Interesting thread that makes you start to wonder what to believe. I just had my bathroom re-modeled & have ceramic tile surrounding the tub.
For some reason, I have this thought in my head that at some point moisture/water is going to get through the grout somewhere. Was thinking about using some clear GE silicone II over the grout to seal it even further. Was wondering what the thoughts are about doing this(good or bad) from the guys who do this for a living.

Hemlock,
Sealing the grout line with a silicone sealer or another grout sealer will help keep stains to a minimum, and help a little with water peneration. I would go that route instead of trying to use plain silicone on everything. Also, some grouts have been fortified to help with this, but many people add the sealant as well. NEVER use grout sealants you SPRAY on.

To help, just make sure your tile edge next to the tub ledge is caulked with a blended silicone/latex caulk. Doing this in the corners next to in the lower portion is helpful. I really don't suggest just plain silicone because it is awful to get off, and difficult to control in a bathroom setting. The combo of silicone/latex works very well for joint areas.

Do you know what they used in materials behind the tile? Cement board or something else? Some tile installers who use cbu will also use something like a waterproof membrane that is a liquid you apply, In an older method, Some will just use a thick plastic behind the cbu. It depends on how much the tile installers keep up on the industry.

cyberheater,
Thanks for the reply. I was looking at using the silicone more as a sealer for added protection from water/moisture penetration as opposed to preventing staining.
As to the tile/tub ledge, he also used grout there, which I later found out he should have used a silicone bead instead. (all grout used was sanded)
That's another reason I was thinking of now doing the silicone over the grout. Do you think I should remove that grout 1st on the tub/tile ledge or would I be OK just using the caulk over the grout?
As for materials behind the tile, he used cement board & hardi-backer.
I also thought he should have used plastic sheathing for a vapor barrier (this is an outside wall) but he said it wasn't necessary with the hardi-backer.
All in all I wasn't too impressed with his work. If I wanted to take the time to do it myself & with some guidance along the way, I know I could have done a better job.

Hemlock, first - he might of thought that the hardibacker would have created a "water diaper", because there are those who think it is impervious to water. Hardibacker does not deteriorate with water, but it does absorb water. The phrasing with this is confusing to people.

Do not try using your basic tube of silicone. You will be disappointed. Use a grout sealer (some of silicone in them). Tec has one called just that.

Just use the caulking over the grout.
Sanded or not, grout may have been fortified and/or modified with something to help fight mold and water, although none of them (unless epoxy) is all that water proof.

Again, I suggest a silicone/latex blend of caulk. And yes, you can put it over the grout - no harm there really. Grouting at the joints is not bad, some installers think do not grout at joints if they are worried about cracking/movement. Grouting, then caulking is done a lot.

Although silicone seems like the best, try removing it once signs of mold (little black spots) start to appear. No bleach will get rid of it. If you use something that you can easily remove and replace in a couple of years, that silicone/latex blend works very well. It does help resist water and you can remove it and apply it much better.

My advice a grout sealant is not to get one with a lot of solvents in it and not to use some "off" brand. Go with those brands that have a good name for it. NO SPRAYS - period.

Sorry, need to add something Hemlock. The grout does need to dry out a little - even if you use a grout sealant it should do that somewhat - another reason not to cover everything in silicone caulking.
Your installers also may have used (most typically) a fortified thinset.

If you tile job looks good, and you are not taking a lot of showers per day - you may be okay. Just do your maitenance. Watch for water problems just outside of the tub where water splashes too.

If you live in a location where you do not get extreme temps outside, you outside wall may be okay too, I couldn't be certain.

cyberheater,
Just so I'm clear on this & we're on the same page, when you speak of a grout sealant & the latex/silicone caulk, are you referring to 2 different things or one & the same? The only grout sealants I've seen in Home Depot are liquids. (& yes some are sprays) So far, the only thing I'm referring to is the silicone caulk. When you mentioned Tec, is that a liquid or the caulk? Are you saying get the grout sealer that comes in liquid form, then use the latex/silicone caulk over that?
Like I said, I just want to make sure I'm on the same page as you.
I'm in western NY, so we get the extreme temps like yourself in MN.
The job was completed over a month ago, so I believe the grout should be cured by now. Usually only 1 (sometimes 2) showers per day.

Sorry for not being clear enough.

Grout sealant - liquid brush on.
Tec has a grout silicone sealant. There are others that are good. Once this has dried (follow manufacturers instructions) Then caulk using the silicone/latex combo.
Only caulk at the joint of the tub line and in the corners from the tub up about 8 - 12 inches. Don't try and cualk the all the grout lines. I also caulk at shower/tub faucets, handles and shower heads. Also shower doors.

You can also find caulking that is close to the color of your existing grout in the tile section of some stores that will work.

I never have not used a vapor barrier, unless I am using one in the inside of the shower walls. Depending on the age of your home, you may have something already installed on the outside. Wrap, or tar, or even foam board. (I am trying to help you relax a little)

Next tile project - look into the Kerdi system from Schluter. You can Google it. Still labor involved, but I have installed it enough to tell you that it's a very good solution for tiling showers and bath surrounds.

OK, now I'm clear on everything.
Have you ever heard of SurfaceGard grout sealer by TileLab? I bought a pint of it about a week ago at Home Depot, (About $18) but haven't opened it yet. I'll look for the Tec product if you think that's better & return this stuff.
Thanks very much for your input... much appreciated.

cyberheater,
I re-read your last post about the colored grout in the tile store & forgot to mention something. The guy who did the work left me a tube of Superior Adhesives Pro-caulk that is 100% acrylic siliconized & matches the tile grout. He never did say how/where to use it & I didn't ask, but I've used some around the new medicine cabinet where a couple small gaps weren't filled. Is that the same (or close to) the latex/silicone caulk you're referring to & would it be good for going over the grout in the areas around the tub?

That pro- caulk may work good for you, and since it is at least close to the color of your grout, give it a try.

Tile lab has given a bit of "shaky" reviews. I would use something from Aqua mix. They have both water based and solvent based sealers. Very important to test a little area of grout of this sealant first.

Then follow instructions. Tile type and grout type does help to jknow in purchasing your sealant.

Tec I have only used on occasion. No problems with it, but I like to use something that screams "works".

Remember - this is not a "waterproof" solution, but it will help with stains and allow what moisture in the grout to dry. All grouts need to dry.

Also remember to read the directions on whather or not to quickly wipe off that sealant off the tile. Not all sealers do the same. You can go to the aquamix site and take a look before you go purchase something.

Good luck Hemlock.

OK, thanks again cyberheater.
I'll take back the sealer from Tile Lab & look for Aqua Mix.
Very much appreciate all of your input.

It is 2 1/2 years old question... Start new thread

Cement board or Wonderboard is NOT waterproof Hardibacker is better for showerwalls where they will get wet daily. Felt, tile and grout will breathe(let the water and moisture thru) if you are using wonderboard then plastic sheeting is recommended.

Why would you be concerned with what is the min. you can do verses doing what is best for your investment? Always go far and beyond so you will know you did the best you could to secure your investment. Also think about if you ever sell your home and what type of home you'd be selling another human being. A few extra hundred dollars is NOT going to keep you from eating or paying your mortgage. We bought our home five years ago and it had a beautiful bathroom so we thought. We had to rip it all up because mold was growing underneath the tile, mortar and backer board. ALWAYS go beyond the min. code requirement because our homes should carry our pride. If you cannot afford to go the extra mile, then save your money until you can.

Designer from IL.