Hello:

From the wingers present at the debates, we learned (http://www.salon.com/news/2012_elections/index.html?story=/politics/war_room/2011/09/22/gop_debate_florida)that execution is to be applauded, sick people should die, and gay soldiers should be BOOED.

Any right wingers have anything to say about that? I'd be ashamed if I was you.

excon

I am ashamed of them, booing ( is that a word ?) any soldier who fights for our nation should be honored.

The death penalty is another issue, I am strongly against the death penalty but it is a strongly supported. So yes if you are anti abortion, but yes on death penalty, you are a right winger.

I can't put the two together in my mind one death is wrong, the other is OK, but the liberals do it the other way, abortion is OK, death penalty is wrong,

Where are people who think any needless killing is wrong.

I'm not ashamed at all . I wasn't in the audience at any of the debates . Unless you want ownership for the actions of everyone from your side then get rid of the idea that the actions of the audience of these debates represent me . I think it was the Ronulans anyway.

I have a different problems with the debates ;they've sucked and it's getting late for serious candidates to get their game on.

I've been trying hard to find a reason to support Perry and have not found it yet. Fred Thompson is an interesting comparison because they both seem really disinterested .Perry gets worse as the debate goes on. But the difference is that I was firmly behind Thompson's platform. Perry has some I like ,but also some disqualifiers... (one of them not being his stand on the death penalty) .

I also think Fox chose an ill conceived gimmicky debate format . I was disappointed at how little time was allocated to foreign policy in the week the kabukie theater of the absurd dictators premiered here in NY .

I also don't think other candidates get a fair shake in the time allocation. The 3rd tier candidates were fill in between the goofy exchanges between Romney and Perry. The whole cast had better do better because the President, if nothing else ,knows how to spew pablum.

Thaddeus McCotter just dropped out of the race... Who ? You might ask... He's a Republican Congressman ,a solid conservative with a real grasp of foreign policy who consistently gets elected in the People's Republic of Michigan... which means he attracts the Reagan Democrats . I have heard him interviewed often and he would've brought the level of debate up quite a bit . But he was never invited to participate ;even in the Fox debate . I was shocked to learn that he wasn't there but Gary Johnson was .
This race is getting stale in a hurry . Preseason is almost over and the roster needs tweeking . The Republicans need new blood . Bring on Christie ;bring on Palin . Let the fireworks begin.

Fr_Chuck - part of prob with your dilemma is that abortion isn't exactly "needless," at least for the large majority of those who seek it. It's a tough decision not taken lightly.
On death penalty, I'm not quite against it. Example - Davis' was a travesty but another execution same day in another state I strongly approve (bigoted murderer who killed by dragging victim behind truck). Problem with death penalty is that way too often there are too many questions as to guilt or "fair" application.

Well the big distinction in the 2 would be loss of innocent life (abortion ) opposed to the erradication of a predator who has served notice on society .

The right and the tea party always keepin' it clASSy. I can't wait for them to start spitting on soldiers.

The right and the tea party always keepin' it clASSy. I can't wait for them to start spitting on soldiers.

Yeah, like wanting to "take out those sons of b*tches" and calling your neighbors "terrorists." The left is always much classier.

Ok, first of all I seem to recall you excon, are the biggest Ron Paul supporter I know (the insured question). Secondly, I watched the tape. One idiot booed the soldier, maybe two. But why should facts
Matter when you demonize us all just for the hell of it.

But why should facts matter when you demonize us all just for the hell of it.Hello again, Steve:

It wasn't for the hell of it... Ok, yes it was.. I DID interest me that nobody on stage said one word to the soldier, except giving him sh1t.

excon

It surprises you that conservatives tend to be against gays in the military? Does it also surprise you that Obama is against gay marriage? No, you know and neither are news. I believe your source article was about the day they booed a soldier, but THEY did not boo a soldier, a couple of morons did. It's unfair to pin that on all of us because of a couple of boobs.

No, the real story is that a Fox debate made the candidates confront the issue in such a disarming manner. It was certainly no softball from the 'propaganda wing of the GOP' I believe it's called.

It's unfair to pin that on all of us because of a couple of boobs.
Wait a minute, isn't that what you do every day here? Find something a boob liberal did and assign it to all liberals?

Could this be the true liberal mentlity? All talk and no facts just bloated egos.

Vile Comments Lead to Bar Fight Between Bristol Palin & Heckler | Video | TheBlaze.com (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/your-mothers-a-whore-vile-comments-lead-to-bar-fight-between-heckler-and-bristol-palin/)

Could this be the true liberal mentlity?? All talk and no facts just bloated egos.Hello dad:

Yeah, that's like all the liberals I know..

excon

Hello dad:

Yeah, that's like all the liberals I know..

excon

Lol. Throwing blanket statements out when people are always going to be people gets us in trouble every time. ;)

Wait a minute, isn't that what you do every day here? Find something a boob liberal did and assign it to all liberals?

Dude, I have zero tolerance for your nonsense. Find someone else to stalk and spread misinformation about.

Hello again,

It's not often that I agree with Bill Kristol... But, even a dead clock is right twice a day.. After watching the debate, this is what he said, "Yikes!! ..Most won't express publicly just how horrified — or at least how demoralized — (we) are."

I must also point out the utterly despicable behavior of Rick Santorum... That brave gay soldier he put down is doing something Rick Santorum has NEVER done - put his life on the line to defend our freedoms and our way of life.

excon

I didn't say I wasn't horrified by the lineup, I just pointed out your source was loose with the facts. We don't boo the men and women that defend our country.

We don't boo the men and women that defend our country.Hello again, Steve:

Clearly, you DO. And, I didn't use a source. I used my EARS.

Instead of denying that you HAVE those nuts, why don't you put them in their place?? That's all I'm really asking.. As long as you DON'T, one is left to suspect that you AGREE with them...

excon

Dude, I have zero tolerance for your nonsense. Find someone else to stalk and spread misinformation about.Please stop stalking me. Thank you.

Please stop stalking me. Thank you.

Dude, keep at it. Eventually everyone will tire of you getting their threads closed.

Hello again, Steve:

Clearly, you DO. And, I didn't use a source. I used my EARS.

One loud guy and a few other idiots just as I said.

Xwoh6g05hj4

Compare that to a real AUDIENCE reaction, not just a few a$$holes.

MdEENHOQksY

I stand on what I said.


Instead of denying that you HAVE those nuts, why don't you put them in their place??

Dude, you really don't read my posts do you? I called them "idiot (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/debates-snicker-snicker-598532.html#post2898324)", "a couple of morons" and "boobs" (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/debates-snicker-snicker-598532.html#post2898520) and now a$$holes. What do you want me to do, execute them?

Dude, you really don't read my posts do you? I called them a couple of morons" and "boobs and now a$$holes. What do you want me to do, execute them?Hello again, Steve:

Nahhh, you did good. Nancy Pelosi is jerk. Are we even?

excon

Hello again, Steve:

Nahhh, you did good. Nancy Pelosi is jerk. Are we even?

excon

Not yet, I'm 1-1 thanks to a lousy running game. But then again, how 'bout them Cheeseburgers?

Enjoy...

BhDhDRvHaGs

And all the Sarah Palin bashing from the left? And the Bush bashing? And the Cheney Bashing... all from the left are OK?

Besides, there is also Harry Reid, the man who takes it upon himself to decide what even merits a vote or not, like he believes he can command the House what they can and can't do.

One down (Nancy Pelosi) Two more to go before government can leave the pre-school era.

Ok, first of all I seem to recall you excon, are the biggest Ron Paul supporter I know (the insured question).

I do like Ron Paul. And I like you and Tom also. I also like Frank Farry (R) PA State Rep I voted for him when I moved to the 'Burbs. Because honestly the Democrat was an idiot.

BUT The Tea Party Oh I think the tea party is a band of homophobic racist know nothing know it all idiots. Who really know nothing of what it is to actually love America for what it is. They talk all this ish about being a Patriot then boo a soldier for being gay I bet Thomas Jefferson would have booed to. Talk all this ish about Jesus then cheer for letting someone die. I'm sure that was one of Jesus's prouder moments for mankind.

Listen to them talk I have to pay for this, I have to pay for that, that person doesn't have to do this, that person doesn't have to do that. They are going to take away MY _______ (fill in the blank) It's all about me me me with them. And honestly THEY are what's wrong with OUR country.

I do like Ron Paul. And I like you and Tom also. I also like Frank Farry (R) PA State Rep I voted for him when I moved to the 'Burbs. Because honestly the Democrat was an idiot.

BUT The Tea Party Oh I think the tea party is a band of homophobic racist know nothing know it all idiots. Who really know nothing of what it is to actually love America for what it is. They talk all this ish about being a Patriot then boo a soldier for being gay I bet Thomas Jefferson would have booed to. Talk all this ish about Jesus then cheer for letting someone die. I'm sure that was one of Jesus's prouder moments for mankind.

Listen to them talk I have to pay for this, I have to pay for that, that person doesn't have to do this, that person doesn't have to do that. They are going to take away MY _______ (fill in the blank) It's all about me me me with them. And honestly THEY are what's wrong with OUR country.

THEY didn't boo a soldier, a few morons did, and if they're racists why is Herman Cain so popular with them? Why is the San Antonio Tea Party headed by a Hispanic man? Come on Spit, that makes no sense... unless these guys aren't "authentic" minorities.

P.S. One of the original Tea Party organizers, Ali Akbar, has invited Morgan Freeman to attend a Tea Party rally. Freeman, one of my favorite actors, recently said the Tea Party was racially motivated to get rid of Obama - a charge which is as absurd as me saying all liberals are intolerant bigots. The letter (http://teapartybrew.com/opinion/2011/09/a-tea-party-invitation-to-morgan-freeman/):

http://tea-party-brew.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Video-Breaking-News-Videos-from-CNN.com_1317173712562.png


Dear Mr. Freeman,

My name is Ali Akbar. I'm a 26 year-old African-American small business owner and a tea party activist. I'm not writing to rake you over the coals in the way that many conservatives have done in the last 48 hours. Heck, I wrote a passionate open-letter refuting many of your claims already, but this is not that. This is an honest and standing invitation. I do believe that you are wrong in what you said about the tea party, but I would rather prove it to you than castigate you for your comments.

I also understand that your reflexive comments came from experience. You grew up in a different America than the one that I was blessed to be born into. We both grew up in the south, but I never saw 'White Only' signs. I've been called a name or two in my three decades, but racism has always been the exception in my life, not the rule, as it probably was in your youth. I understand your suspicion of conservative political movements. It is rooted in pain and fear and memory, and though I never saw the horrors of segregation that you did, we share that cultural heritage.

I've been a fan of yours all my life. From “Driving Miss Daisy” to “Lean on Me” to “The Shawshank Redemption,” I idolized you as a boy. Growing up without a father, you were one of the strong black men in my life who gave me a model to follow. Each of the characters you played had dignity and confidence. I tried to emulate the strength you projected. While many of my friends headed down the all-too-familiar path of drugs, unwed pregnancies and crime, I've striven to live a life with dignity, be an example for my brothers and make my mother proud.

My favorite of your movies was “The Power of One.” I must've watched it a hundred times, crying every time when your character Geel Piet was killed by the racist South African. Geel Piet was brave and heroic, even in the face of death, because he knew that the hate that killed him was a trifle in comparison to the love that PK's anti-apartheid movement was spreading. It is with that spirit that I'm writing to you this morning.

I've attended dozens of tea party events. I've helped organize them, and I've even spoken at a few. The tea party is not what is often depicted in the news. It is people of all colors who are terribly concerned about the direction that America is heading. We don't trust big government to make decisions for us. And we fear that the present administration's spending is going to lead our country down a path to insolvency, much like what Greece is currently facing.

Your comments about the tea party have caused me physical pain. You've rekindled the old painful paradigm of Uncle Tom – that any black man who votes Republican is some kind of sellout. It's not true. I work hard, pay my taxes, love Jesus, and I'm good to my family and community. In effect, your comments have stereotyped an entire group of people. And I know in my soul that you must regret that on some level.

There's already plenty of groupthink among American blacks. Over 90% of us vote Democrat with religious regularity, and we have been doing so for over fifty years. For a short time, I was one of them. I realized a few years ago that the Democrats' promises of equality bestowed by government wasn't working and will never work. I came to believe that redistributionist policies with the goal of social justice was essentially creating a new plantation within the federal government. Scraps might be thrown our way, but dependence on the plantation would be the inevitable result.

Over half a century since we started voting for Democrat policies, blacks in America are worse off than before. Black Americans are more likely to get involved with drugs, go to prison, and die younger than our white counterparts. Over 70% of our children are born out of wedlock. Our abortion rate has never been higher. There are two explanations for these results. 1) Blacks are an inferior race and can't take care of themselves. 2) Despite the best of intentions, the government has created and implemented “social justice” policies that promote perpetual dependence. I choose to believe the latter. Therefore, I have become a Republican.

Mr. Freeman, I'm not asking you to adopt my political views. You're in your seventies, and a political shift is not in your future. I'm reaching out to you because I want you to think better of your fellow countrymen. Barack Obama is in the White House, and Herman Cain just won the Florida straw poll. America is the land of opportunity for black Americans like never before.

I'm hoping that you'll come to a tea party in Tennessee — the place of your birth. Really anywhere in the country that works for you; I'll set it up with the one of the thousands of activists I know around our great country. I'd be delighted to introduce you to good people who will welcome you with open arms, disagree with you, and then feed you some of the best barbecue you've ever tasted.

Racism is an ugly thing, but I assure you that it is part of our past, not our present.

It takes bravery to admit that you may have made a mistake. But, for Geel Piet, bravery is like breathing. It's just something you do.

I hope you'll take me up on my offer.



Sincerely,

Ali Akbar

[email protected]

Steve my objection to the Tea party is there is no negotiation or compromise, and Rand Paul's latest stunt doesn't help.


Naplesnews.com - Naples Daily News - AP News (http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_PIPELINE_SAFETY_SENATOR?SITE=FLNAP&SECTION=SPORTS&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-09-28-16-51-20)


The bill would allow federal regulators to order that automatic shutoff valves be installed on new pipelines so leaks can be halted sooner, but it stops short of requiring the valves for existing pipelines. And it directs regulators to determine whether mandatory inspections of aging pipelines in densely populated areas should be expanded to include lines in rural areas. It would be paid for by industry fees.

Paul said,

"The bill puts in place new mandates; it hires new bureaucrats," Paul said. He also said the bill "grandfathers in the very pipelines that have had recent problems," an apparent reference to automatic shutoff valves.

I have a big problem with idealogical stances stopping safety concerns.

Yeah I know how people who think they aren't racist but really are work. They roll out their one or 2 non white friends and that makes everything OK. See were not racist. I wonder how many time Ali's name came up when he wasn't their and someone said oh don't worry he's one of the "good ones".

Yeah I know... he and Herman Caine are one of them Uncle Tom Oreo cookies... Right ?

I have a black friend.

Steve my objection to the Tea party is there is no negotiation or compromise, and Rand Paul's latest stunt doesn't help.

Let me make something clear, I'm a conservative, I'm not a Tea Partier. I'll vote for a Democrat if they'll best represent my interests. I don't defend the Tea Party out of loyalty to them, the facts happen to matter to me and I'm flat fed up with people labeling anyone right of center as racists, bigots and intolerant boobs. It's just mean, ugly, inexcusably divisive and most of all completely untrue.


I have a big problem with idealogical stances stopping safety concerns.

But it's OK for Obama to raise taxes - even though he admits its harm to the economy and federal revenues - on his flawed principle of "fairness".

Yeah I know how people who think they aren't racist but really are work. They roll out their one or 2 non white friends and that makes everything ok. See were not racist. I wonder how many time Ali's name came up when he wasn't their and someone said oh don't worry he's one of the "good ones".

Oh give me a break, Spit, that's ridiculous. I'm 51 and much like Ali said, I grew up in a different America than Morgan Freeman. I never saw those "white only" signs either. I barely remember some fuss about desegregation, when they closed the "black" high school we had, but from grade one I was the white minority. I didn't realize I was supposed to be racist until I joined these discussions on the original Askme when people made comments just like yours. Little did I know that all those years of my closest friends being Mexican-Americans didn't count... I must be racist because I'm a conservative.

Really, Spit? I don't put my friends on display to prove anything, they're just friends. You're the one making it about color, not me.

You do this every time I say something about the south or the right you automatically make it about you. I'm not talking about you. If you called liberals dirty long haired hippie freaks I don't think your talking about me.

I don't consider you to be one of these lunatics. But here is my point Through out the campaign we were told Obama pals around with terrorist. Well from these videos the Republicans Pal around with troop hating wanting people to die cause they don't have insurance homophobes.

You do this every time I say something about the south or the right you automatically make it about you. I'm not talking about you. If you called liberals dirty long haired hippie freaks I don't think your talking about me.

I don't consider you to be one of these lunatics. But here is my point Through out the campaign we were told Obama pals around with terrorist. Well from these videos the Republicans Pal around with troop hating wanting people to die cause they don't have insurance homophobes.

But that's just it, Spit, I am who you're referring to. My conservative friends had the same experience, we didn't know we were supposed to be disturbed that our classmates and neighbors weren't white like us. We don't care about skin color, we aren't the ones making it about race.

Did we throw a fit when Bush made Powell his secretary of state, or chose Condi as his closest adviser, or when Clarence Thomas was nominated? No, we welcomed them all while the left painted them as "Uncle Tom Oreo cookies" instead of applauding their achievements and our diversity. That's just wrong, man. We don't want racists or troop-booing morons among us any more than you want them in your circle. We want an end to racism, too.

P.S. Here, Janeane Garofalo makes your point for you (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/09/29/janeane_garofalo_racist_republicans_support_herman _cain.html):


Janeane Garofalo: "Herman Cain is probably well liked by some of the Republicans because it hides the racist elements of the Republican party. Conservative movement and tea party movement, one in the same.

"People like Karl Rove liked to keep the racism very covert. And so Herman Cain provides this great opportunity say you can say 'Look, this is not a racist, anti-immigrant, anti-female, anti-gay movement. Look we have a black man.'"

Oh yeah that's exactly it, a majority of Floridians gave him the straw poll win to hide their racism. Really, Spit? Come on, you don't want to be like those other race-baiters do you?

I don't like it when MY government can't cut a deal, that addresses the problems. It doesn't matter about the politics, or personal beliefs. Just do your job.

No, refusing to cut a deal, and all this brinkmanship, may make for great politics on TV, but these are peoples lives we are screwing around with.

I am stating what I see. That the Tea party has homophobic racist who want people to die in their ranks. And by their logic since Obama pals around with terrorist that makes him a terrorist. So by THEIR logic since there are homophobic racist who want people to die in the tea party then they ALL must be like that. Right by their logic that is how this works. Or are republicans the only ones who can play that game.

And as unfunny as I think Janeane Garofalo is, she is right. I love my grandmom but she is a racist not just outwardly But my friends are "good ones" as she says. She almost disowned me when I was dating a Haitian girl. So I know covert racism when I see it.

On a side note I believe the Eagles team should be called the Day Dream Team cause their heads are not in these games.

Janeane Garofalo, is a biggoted blowhard that is a legend in her own mind.

Christies speech at the Reagan library almost made me puke, as I long for the days when Republicans made sense, and you could talk to them.

All this hostage taking and obstructionism is no replacement for getting the work done. Even Reagan knew that.

Yeah lets pass the 'jobs for blue state public unions act'

UNIONS ARE PEOPLE TOO!!!!!

The rich guys, banks, and corporations, were bailed out, made whole, and profitable again. Now it's the turn of the ones who have done all that to be made whole, profitable, and bailed out!!

What's unfair about that?

UNIONS ARE PEOPLE TOO!!!!!

The rich guys, banks, and corporations, were bailed out, made whole, and profitable again. Now its the turn of the ones who have done all that to be made whole, profitable, and bailed out!!!

Whats unfair about that?

Unions TAKE money from their members by force... and don't consider the best interest or the wishes of its rank and file where those dues are spent. That's the problem...

And wasting it on Obama and most democrats isn't in the unions best interests nor its rank and file.

Unions TAKE money from their members by force...and don't consider the best interest or the wishes of its rank and file where those dues are spent. Thats the problem...

And wasting it on Obama and most democrats isn't in the unions best interests nor its rank and file.


Corporations TAKE money from their consumers by force... and don't consider the best interest or the wishes of its customers where those dues are spent. That's the problem...

And wasting it on CEO's and Wall Street isn't in the publics best interests nor its citizens.

Agreed the banks should never've been bailed out.

The President's bill is phoney . He doesn't have the support of his own party in the Legislative branch.. Reid won't even put it up for a vote and Durbin said it was a NO STARTER. Even they know they shouldn't hose the people in an election year.

Corporations TAKE money from their consumers by force...and don't consider the best interest or the wishes of its customers where those dues are spent. Thats the problem...

And wasting it on CEO's and Wall Street isn't in the publics best interests nor its citizens.

Really... I've worked for many and only a Union has taken money out of my paycheck for their own use.

Corporations taking comsumers money by force? Oh, you are talking about OBAMACARE where the liberals want to make it ILLEGAL to NOT buy something?

Every other situation the Consumer has a choice to not buy something or buy it anyplace else. And if nobody buys it from them , it goes out of business, Unless you have friends in the Obama administration, then they will throw BILLIONS your way.

You can do a lot better than that Tal... I know its Friday, but that was sort of weak.

Reid and Durbin both know the republican house, and senate republicans, won't vote with them, at least not now. Everything is stalled until Thanksgiving.

Wrong . Durbin said he needs Republican votes to cover for the Dems in the Senate who won't vote for the bill due to the suicidal idea of raising taxes during a recession.

One word of warning to the Dems... remember Walter Mondale... remember GHW Bush.

Even Buffett isn't too hot on Obama's "Buffet rule."

Warren Buffett Does Not Endorse WH's "Buffett Rule" (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/09/30/warren_buffett_does_not_endorse_buffett_rule.html)

Buffett wouldn't be so under taxed if he actually paid the taxes he owes.Berkshire Hathaway owes about $1 billion in back taxes ;and is continuously in dispute with the IRS over it's obligations .

Buffett: "That's another program that I won't be discussing. My program is to have a tax on ultra-rich people who are paying very low tax rates. Not just all the rich people. It would probably apply to 50,000 people in a population of 300 million."

CNBC: "So that means you disagree with the president on the $250,000?"

Buffett: "No, no. You may disagree with him."

CNBC: "So you agree, $250,000 is the right number?"

Buffett: "I will look at the overall plan that gets submitted to Congress, and which they are voting on, and decide net, “do I like it or do I not like it”. There is no question, there will be parts I'll disagree with."

CNBC: "And are you a supporter of his jobs program right now?"

Buffett: "I am supporter of the action he is trying to get the Congress to join him in taking to really do something, rather than sit there and go in different directions."
CNBC: "Do you agree with all the details?"

Buffett: "I haven't looked at all the details."

Good enough for me. And the last time I looked, raising taxes is popular through America. JOBS is the issue.

Good enough for me. And the last time I looked, raising taxes is popular thru America. JOBS is the issue.

What planet are you living on... NOBODY I now, and I know a lot across all political spectrums... NOBODY thinks they are paying too little in taxes... or throwing money at a problem ever fixes the problem, it only results in even more spending.

Nobody I know is in favor of giving a single dime more to the people who have proven they have ZERO self control on their spending habits.

Nobody that actually pays income taxes that is... and we know nearly 47% pay nothing... maybe it's that same 47% that thinks raising taxes is a good idea... since they aren't going to be the ones paying them either.

smoothy = broken record.

smoothy = broken record.

Can't stand it when I'm right can you?

I suppose if you polled welfare recipients about if their benefits should be doubled... you'd find a lot of support for that too.

However a real poll of those who would actually be expected to PAY for it would be quite the opposite.

You must be part of that 25% percent that disagree. That makes you a minority doesn't it?

You must be part of that 25% percent that disagree. That makes you a minority doesn't it?

I suppose that was one of those Polls that have zero credibility.

Show me one of yours that's credible. I have yet to see any of them show what you say we should do. NONE!

Show me one of yours thats credible. I have yet to see any of them show what you say we should do. NONE!!

YOU claimed there was a poll that said MOST Americans want to pay more taxes.

Was it a "Poll" the white house took among Democrats?

It wasn't me... only idiots want someone to take mopre of their hard earned money. PARTICULARLY when the economy is so bad everyone but a Liberal recipient of the so called "Stimulous package" has to cut back to make ends meet.

The Crappy economy and the ultra high unemployment rates back my side.

Poll: Raising taxes is an option for S.C. GOP voters | McClatchy (http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/09/26/125229/poll-raising-taxes-is-an-option.html)


S.C. Republican and Republican-leaning voters do not want cuts to Social Security, Medicare or defense — but they might be willing to pay more taxes to help balance the country's budget, according to a new poll from Winthrop University.

Seventy-three percent of S.C. Republicans who receive Social Security and Medicare benefits say they are not willing to cut those programs in order to balance the budget.

And Republicans now working, who don't yet receive those benefits? More than half say they still are not willing to see their future benefits cut or the retirement age raised.

More than half also say they do not want to see defense spending cut.


But if those programs can't be cut, what can be done to balance the federal budget?

One option, at least for S.C. Republicans, is to raise taxes.

Forty-seven percent of S.C. Republican and Republican-leaning voters surveyed said they did not think it was possible to balance the budget without a tax increase, while 45 percent said a tax increase is not necessary. Seven percent said they were not sure.

“That is surprising, simply because it goes against the echo chambers and punditry who are constantly saying, 'No Republicans believe in any tax (hikes),' ” said Scott Huffmon, a Winthrop University political science professor and director of The Winthrop Poll.


Those three federal programs – Social Security, Medicare and defense – make up 53 percent of the 2012 proposed federal budget with its $3.8 trillion in spending, according to the White House Office of Management and Budget. (Also, off the table, presumably, is the $434 million the federal government will pay in interest on the federal debt.)

This is among REPUBLICANS, so make it easy and tell me a reliable source you believe and then we will look at THEIR poll.

George Allen, Tim Kaine even in college poll - Roanoke.com (http://www.roanoke.com/politics/wb/298918)


By a 3-to-1 margin, voters surveyed said unemployment is a more serious problem than the federal budget deficits. And 55 percent said the rich should pay a higher percentage of their income in taxes.

Nearly two-thirds said the deficit should be reduced through a combination of spending cuts and tax increases.

But majorities said they believe the deficit can be reduced without cutting entitlements such as Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid or other important programs, and without raising taxes on most Americans.

"Virginians clearly want more jobs, even at the cost of short-term deficit increases," Wilson said. "And they think, perhaps incorrectly, that significant deficit reduction can be achieved without broadly shared pain. As in previous polls, residents prefer a combination of budget cuts and tax increases to reduce the deficit."

I showed you mine, so show me yours.

Obviously one of those polls NOBODY has ever heard of, obviously it wasn't one that is known and respected as being fair and not biased.. Odds are it will trace back to some liberal group they manufacture to "prove" some point or other.

Yeah... COLLEGE Poll... yup poll people that don't have a clue about reality or life (someone in College or recently out of one). OR a real job much less being actual TAXPAYERS.

Yeah... ask someone in the Liberal Indoctrination Center (formerly known as Colleges)... you get a canned liberal answer. Being in college don't mean they have any common sense, or real life knowledge or experience.

Maybe they should poll Rehab centers about drug viewpoints, or prisons about perspectives on crime.

Talk is cheap, and I have a bunch more links, even from Fox,

Fox News Poll: Voters Say Bad Leadership To Blame For Economy More Than Bad Luck | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/09/30/fox-news-poll-voters-say-bad-leadership-to-blame-for-economy-more-than-bad-luck/print)


Raising Taxes is Bad -- Except on the Wealthy

Two-thirds of voters (66 percent) think raising taxes during an economic downturn is a bad idea. There’s a wide 39-percentage point partisan gap on this issue: 86 percent of Republicans think it’s a bad idea compared to 47 percent of Democrats.

Independents are three times as likely to say raising taxes in a down economy is a bad idea (67 percent) as to say it’s a good idea (22 percent).

That said, 57 percent of voters think it is a good idea to tax the wealthiest Americans more because it will help grow the economy and reduce the deficit.

Yet most doubt the tax increases recently proposed by President Obama will be used to reduce the deficit. By a 61-26 percent margin, voters think that money would primarily be used to fund more government spending.

And neither side is winning the class warfare argument, as the economic policies of Obama (53 percent) and Republicans (51 percent) are about equally likely to be seen as encouraging conflict between the classes.


Read more: Fox News Poll: Voters Say Bad Leadership To Blame For Economy More Than Bad Luck | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/09/30/fox-news-poll-voters-say-bad-leadership-to-blame-for-economy-more-than-bad-luck/print#ixzz1ZTmlX4kx)

Come on guy, that's 3 links backing what I have been saying. Now where is your FACTS, we have heard the rants. Many times.

talk is cheap



What's a cheap argument is citing polls to validate an ideological debate.

The President told Chuck Todd that it was a bad idea to raise taxes during a recession . Was he lying then or now ?

Why does he want to raise taxes for anyway ? What's the matter ? Didn't Madame Mimi Pelosi's brother get enough taxpayer money during the last giveaway to green energy ?

Unless you address the issues of exclusions, deductions, exemptions and credits ,the debate over tax rates is meaningless. You know as well as I do that the Warren Buffets of the world pay tax accountants big money to avoid paying a $ billion in taxes to the government. So his sanctimoniously hypocritical call for an increase in his tax rates is BS .
The Dems couldn't care one bit about 'creating new jobs'. All they want to do is expand the nanny state and make more and more Americans dependent on their largess.

All they want to do is expand the nanny state and make more and more Americans dependent on their largess.
I've asked you before about this supposed "Nanny state" term that you keep using. I asked here (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/silliest-article-ever-christian-plot-domination-594182-8.html#post2902583) and got no response. So I'll ask again I guess.
What you call the "nanny state" is just the way your country is and will be, it's not a recent occurrence and it's not going back to some idealistic 19th century state. Is there any country in the world that you don't consider to be a nanny state?

Yawn... I'm supposed to change my opinion on the slim argument that "that's the way it is "??
It's irrelevant if there are 1 or many countries that fits the model I envision... and you are wrong... as these large centralized Levithians crash under the weight of their obligations ,the socialistic model will be consigned to the dustbin of history.

Ok. :rolleyes:

I think government should be effective and efficient. And Flexible enough to enact strategies that benefit us all. I think the world is to complex to think the old ways of thinking and doing things is an answer for more complex problems. And its one thing to argue ideology, and quite another to live up to goals and values that serve all and not just the few.

The great lesson of the Civil War was if we don't work together to build together, we end up fighting each other and destroying the very thing we fight over. Whether you admit it or not, this is where we are yet again, repeating history, no not with guns and death, but with ideas and words.

The consensus seems to be one way, yet we do another, pandering to ideology, and self interest. Heck there is so much ideology already, that solutions cannot be reached or implemented fast enough to relieve the stress NOW.

As long as we are not flexible, or open to other ideas other than our own, we will never have solutions that work for us.

Making more poor people is hardly living up to the conclusion that "All men are created equal". And its not some people, but "WE the people". I submit to you Tom, that the nanny state you describe is but a result of putting the value on institutions, and not people, because that's the so called free market system, where some have an opportunity for riches, and some do NOT.

Go ahead, say how lazy they are and how hard you work for what you get to not be a part of the nanny state. But as I tell smoothy all the time, rhetoric, talk, and opinions are great for debate, but you still have to have a plan of action for reality.

That's what all the polls are showing, because that's the consensus on opinion. The polls say government is not popular, and republican law makers are sucking hind tit. Wonder why that is?

Go ahead, say how lazy they are and how hard you work for what you get to not be a part of the nanny state.

I say nothing of the kind. I say your nanny state solutions don't work ;and instead of lifting people up it drags more people down.

I reject the premise that what I advocate "makes more poor people ". And I reject this model that defines people by class.

The great lesson of the Civil War was if we don't work together to build together, we end up fighting each other and destroying the very thing we fight over. Whether you admit it or not, this is where we are yet again, repeating history, no not with guns and death, but with ideas and words.


I take a different lesson from the Civil War. The founders and the nation tried to live with the scourge of slavery as an institutional reality of the nation .And they did all types of compromises trying to preserve the nation with this blight . Eventually all this compromising did was prolong the inevidible .

Eventually all this compromising did was prolong the inevidible .

I agree, just as all our compromising (or lack of it) is delaying the inevitable now, and that's some changes to our present institutions.

It's irrelevent if there are 1 or many countries that fits the model I envision....and you are wrong ....as these large centralized Levithians crash under the weight of their obligations ,the socialistic model will be consigned to the dustbin of history.

Hi Tom,

I don't know about that. The OZ Leviathan is doing well at the moment.

Tut

Tut you have the benefit of having a commodities export nation and a willing customer in the neighborhood. Plenty nations have thrived temporarily under such conditions ;and thus live under the illusion their system is sound , until the well runs dry. And I must caution you . Beware of the devil you are dancing with. We suffer for a negative trade imbalance with China ;but you are also vulnerable to the Chinese trade policies even though it temporarily favors your nation. I also caution that Red Julia's policies regarding carbon taxation will stick a knife in your economy.

I can't wait to see how the Chinese deal with inflation, and market corrections. And the bursting of the export bubble they are creating. No doubt they will drag smaller economies down with them.

Hope its televised.

Tut you have the benefit of having a commodities export nation and a willing customer in the neighborhood. Plenty nations have thrived temporarily under such conditions ;and thus live under the illusion their system is sound , until the well runs dry. And I must caution you . Beware of the devil you are dancing with. We suffer for a negative trade imbalance with China ;but you are also vulnerable to the Chinese trade policies even though it temporarily favors your nation. I also caution that Red Julia's policies regarding carbon taxation will stick a knife in your economy.

Hi Tom,

I guess we have been living this illusion since Federation. Don't underestimate the resourcefulness of OZ when it comes to competing in the world market place.Our political system has a history of not being stuck in limbo. We tend not to let ideology get in the way of practice.

I think this will prove to be the case when the carbon tax is implemented. Unfortunately, it is here to say. It will stay even if a Liberal government is elected. I am basing this claim on past history of controversial legislation. It may well be modified by incoming governments but I would be surprised if it didn't stay.We will make it work for us. Why? Because that's our tradition as a nation.

Tut

What better way to spur growth of alternative technologies for energy, than a carbon tax? Its an investment, for the future, though it will eventually de leverage many oil, and coal producers, because you will be more flexible and resistant to their energy pricing. Its not as far off as people think. Big Oil is resistance because it cuts into profits, and diverts it away from them. But they will get it.

Investment and flexibility are keys in the world market to be on top of changes that will surely occur, not just in politics, but in science. This is where the US, and many of the worlds largest economies are, caught between good science, and old politics.

Investment and flexibility are keys in the world market to be on top of changes that will surely occur, not just in politics, but in science. This is where the US, and many of the worlds largest economies are, caught between good science, and old politics.

Hi Tal,

Interesting point you make about good science and old politics.In Australia we have a tradition of accepting the decisions of a previous governments and moving on.

The most obvious example that springs to mind is universal health care in Australia. One of the last acts of the Whitlam government was to somehow manage to get the legislation through. When Frazer won the election and took office he did virtually nothing but accept the legislation.

As I said before, accepting what has gone before seems to be an unwritten precedent in Australian politics. Examples of how this works can be historically seen on both sides of politics.

As far as universal health care is concerned; what can anyone do? We don't have a constitution to make a High Court challenge. Well, we do have a constitution, but it doesn't guarantee us much. The irony is that eventually universal health care became enshrined in the constitution.

My point is really not about good or bad science, right or wrong decisions. It is more about getting things done. If we had strong constitution then I doubt that we would have universal health care in the form we know it today. The legislation would probably still be subject to High Court challenges.

I think if there are too many ways and opportunities not to implement a legislation then in the end all you will ever get is a compromised position.

Tut

Tut some of our Government have made revolutionary changes. Health care, GST, open market, and some have had a good result, some have not. Once again we are in a state of flux but unlike some of our trading partners we have what people want. We may not be able to sell steel to the US but it is interesting, through the intermediary of China our goods are finding their way there and to many other places in the world. Soon I expect we will be driving Chinese cars built on the back of Australian iron and coal.

Successive governments however are wasting our opportunities by reducing individual tax and imposing taxes which hit industry. We will pay for these stupid decisions

Ah, but compromise yield results, and can be changed, or tweaked to IMPROVE and evolve as circumstances warrant. That's what I mean when I say government must be flexible. Once you get a structure in place, it can be improved on. Now the courts here can get in the way, but even that can lead to change, or innovation.

Your example of Universal health care resonates loudly here, as the compromised solution here was a blend of government/ private insurance coverage, because we have a very rich and powerful insurance lobby here, and the whole thing is going before our Supreme Court.

The funny part about that is the fight over one word, "mandate", and some think that if its unconstitutional to have mandated health care for all then you can have no gov/private health care period. One would hope the courts would be judicious, but after it was held that corporations are people to, then it open the doors for government to be bought and paid for by the ones that could afford it.

We the people became we the corporation. People sometimes don't accept change well or give up power easily. They certainly don't like to share or take responsibility when things go wrong.

Ah, but compromise yield results, and can be changed, or tweaked to IMPROVE and evolve as circumstances warrant. Thats what I mean when I say government must be flexible. Once you get a structure in place, it can be improved on. Now the courts here can get in the way, but even that can lead to change, or innovation.

Your example of Universal health care resonates loudly here, as the compromised solution here was a blend of government/ private insurance coverage, because we have a very rich and powerful insurance lobby here, and the whole thing is going before our Supreme Court.

The funny part about that is the fight over one word, "mandate", and some think that if its unconstitutional to have mandated health care for all then you can have no gov/private health care period. One would hope the courts would be judicious, but after it was held that corporations are people to, then it open the doors for government to be bought and paid for by the ones that could afford it.

We the people became we the corporation. People sometimes don't accept change well or give up power easily. They certainly don't like to share or take responsibility when things go wrong.

Hi tal

I think our health care ysytem is not well understood. It too is a blend of public and private funding but the fundamentals are very different. The government took on the provision of basic medical care in exchange for a levy on personal income, there was no suggestion an employer should bare this cost, and in so doing also regulated the price of medical services. Doctors can charge whatever they want to but the public has a benchmark and so will moderate their consumption of these services accordingly. This has been highly effective with many health care providers accepting the government price. So we are not placed in the situation of not being covered at any time, but the more well funded among us have the option of additional health insurance. Underlying this has is a system of electronic payment which has simplified the interface between the providers, consumers and the payment for health services. A health care card is a defacto indentity card providing access to services and billing is simplified.

When you say mandate, I think we have turned the meaning of that word around. The government is seen as having an electoral mandate to implement its stated policy, therefore the function of the parliament is not to oppose that implementation but to modify and temper that implementation to obtain consensus. When a government implements an unmandated policy, ie; carbon tax, it will be opposed and overthrown, but a mandated policy will be left in place. Thus the health care system has been left largely unchanged for thirty years.

Unfortunately we just started on a path of Universal care and while there have been some general rule changes, it doesn't start until 2014, and already the monied interests are trying to repeal it out right.

A Supreme Court ruling is due next summer. All the Republican presidential candidates have made repeal their biggest campaign platform. They think everything should be privatized, and corporations should make their own rules and police themselves.

That includes Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid. And the Pentagon. And Public Schools. They don't believe in government, and makes you wonder why they are running for office in the first place, since all the republican legislation has been to defund woman's health for those with inadequate, or no insurance, and make new anti abortion, anti worker, anti union laws instead of creating jobs like they ran on.

Talk about an agenda.

Unfortunately we just started on a path of Universal care and while there have been some general rule changes, it doesn't start until 2014, and already the monied interests are trying to repeal it out right.

A Supreme Court ruling is due next summer. All the Republican presidential candidates have made repeal their biggest campaign platform. They think everything should be privatized, and corporations should make their own rules and police themselves.

That includes Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid. And the Pentagon. And Public Schools. They don't believe in government, and makes you wonder why they are running for office in the first place, since all the republican legislation has been to defund womans health for those with inadequate, or no insurance, and make new anti abortion, anti worker, anti union laws instead of creating jobs like they ran on.

Talk about an agenda.

Hi Tal

The reality is, Tal, that politicians can only do what other politicians allow them to do. All the spruking does only one thing, it convinces a gullable electorate to vote for them. So what you have is the classic dicotamy, to which we in this country are also well used. You have a Congress of one persuasion and a Senate of another and apparently a President with a third.

We succeed in overcoming this little problem with a couple of simple mechanisms. Firstly the double disssolution, rarely used but often threatened, if legislation cannot get passed by negotiation, we tip the whole lot out on their ear and go to an election, the second, oft used, is that the bills are split and that which can pass does, and there is a third, much disliked, where the government of the day accepts that reason will prevail and the more draconian parts of the legislation are deleted. We don't have that interesting method you possess where the President can apparently pass legislation himself

I don't know what you have heard but the president can't pass anything. He can suggest but its up to the congress. He can sign or not sign, but it takes a majority of congress to over ride his veto.

We have gridlock because the house and senate are divided with repubs owning the house, and Dem's owning the senate.

We elect hose and senate every two years, and a president every four.

No system on earth is perfect, or we would all have the same perfect system. Ours works for us, but we Americans are a spirited vociferous bunch, and opinionated. And there are 360 million people who all think they are right. Coalitions and compromise takes time, to work through checks and balances and all that money.

Coalitions and compromise takes time, to work thru checks and balances and all that money.

Indeed, You are right, no one has the perfect system, some systems work well and progess is achieved. Some do not and produce dysfunctional solutions. We think that a government should get on with doing what a government is elected to do and so when there is a minority in charge of the Senate, we do not let that get in the way of government.

We have some interesting debates going on at the moment in which it appears compromise might not be possible. They are the Carbon Tax and offshore processing of Refugee Applicants (otherwise known as the Malaysia solution). These things have become emotive because we have a government which was not elected in its own right but is held in place by a "coalition" of some most unlikely bedfellows. Not unlike your own, this government controls the Senate, but only with the goodwill of others.

What happens Tal is that unpopular ideas are sometimes tested in a smaller setting before moving on.

Local and regional attitudes are really deep in the house right now, and conservatives have stifled any compromising for now, but we do have another election and hopefully this will yield a higher turnout, which would favor moderates and progressives.

Heck they have a computer for the Financial sector, wish we could replace the congress with one. Our debates are a joke in the primary as everyone is trying to get to the political right, where the conservatives and extremely conservatives are. They hate progress, and long for the good old days and NO government, until a flood or something comes through. There numbers though are sizable 30/40%, so they can't be ignored, nor should they. They slow the process down though, and maybe that's not a completely bad thing, but some accept change quicker than others. There in lies the rub, and where we lose speed, and flexibility of government.

Heck, had we raised taxes in 2008, when this mess started, we could have had enough growth to avoid another financial meltdown, and been much further down the road of recovery, despite what the rest of the world was doing.

But as we see, some would just as soon shut the government down, than work on consensus.

Consensus, what is the opposite to that, nonsense?

As a guide the opposite to progress is congress

conservatives have stifled any compromising

Bs... the bill has been talking about is stalled in the Senate (controlled by the Dems ) .Majority leader Reid says he has more important things on his agenda.

You want consensus ? Stop the class warfare of the President . You want to change taxes ? Then overhaul the tax code for all Americans instead of targeting the few .

Exactly... to the Democrats "compromise" is code for do what we want, how we want, when we want, and don't disagree in any way, shape or form. They have failed to grasp that they lost the last election due to among many other things... telling the Republicans to " sit in the back of the bus and be quiet". As Obama said publicly.

Obamacare is a good example of Democrat "compromise". Done behind closed doors where Republicans weren't even allowed to be present or propose any amendments, or to even have a proper vote on.

A lot like how things happen in dictatorships around the world.

I get your feelings but as usually you have NO facts. Republicans had more than a year to contribute both to debate, and legislation. Indeed many amendments, and ideas, were incorporated, yet they backed away as they always have the last 3 years when it comes to actually passing something.

Even after taking some power, which not only was not a mandate, but regional, in the last election, they have failed to enact any kind of job solutions, but have attacked abortion and voting laws, while states cut teachers and police, as villains, and let bridges and roads fall apart.

But when you do NOTHING to help build, its easy to jump on the "enemy", the one you hate, and blame him for everything bad in the world, while relieving yourself of responsibility for FAILURE, and Ineptness.

So while you point the finger at Mr. Obama, remember you are pointing the other 3 at YOURSELF. Make sure you take some blame for the mess, and if you can't help clean it up, then get out of the way while the cleaning crew does its job.

Lets make it official, I blame YOU as much as I blame the government for this world class mess. So if you want a debate, brings some FACTS!!

We had a year to contribute what? They refused a vote on anything the republicans propsed... when we got enough democrats they resorted to questionable tactics of putting it through without a vote, after havign drafted it behind closed doors... and even in violation of Obamas "transparency rules" by not letting anyone have a chance to even read it.

If the Supreme court doesn't say its unconstitutional, when a Republican gets voted in and we take over the Senate in 2012 we will repeal it in its entirety.

And even if we don't... we will defund it preventing it from ever taking full effect.

Perhaps after its gone the left will grasp the concept of "Cooperation" doesn't mean ramming something down everyone's throats that few actually even want.

And even better... we repeal it using the very same tactics and methods they used to ram it through without a proper vote.

Heck... if the rules allowed THEM to do it... they can't say a thing when we undo it the very same way.

Slate examines the GOP amendments to a Senate health care bill. - Slate Magazine (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/prescriptions/2009/07/this_is_what_bipartisanship_looks_like.html)

I had to include this one just for you Smoothy,

How about them republican amendments to Obama's health care bill? American Taliban WHITE NOISE INSANITY (http://whitenoiseinsanity.com/2009/07/20/how-about-them-republican-amendments-to-obamas-health-care-bill/)

And here are yet more republican amendments in the bill that are now the LAW.

Republican Ideas Included in the President's Proposal | The White House (http://www.whitehouse.gov/health-care-meeting/republican-ideas)

So much for factless rants based on FEELINGS, and not facts. Just curious, what are the basis for your FACTS? What sources do you base them on?

I go along with tax reform, but at least they will go back to the way it was in January of next year, which is just as cool with me.

You get to vote next year too, just as I do. Until then the debate continues, and for the record, I stand by my comments on flexibility, and shared prosperity in good times, and shared responsibility in urgent times. I just don't think its fair for the ones that caused this mess to be made whole, and the ones that made them whole again to be left holding the bag.

Yeah... pure liberal propaganda. When did this proper vote take place after all? Right, it didn't...

When you have to wait years to get a hearing aid like in England... or have to wait 6-9 months for cancer surgery in Canada... I bet they are going to be real happy with socialized health care. But then the Elite won't have it will they?

If it was so damned good, why did Congress opt out of it... and why did Obama give so many wavers for political payback. You'd think ALL liberals would be flocking to it if it was even 1% of what they claim it is... after all, FREE, nobody has yet figured out where all of these FREE doctors are going to come from, or where all of these FREE machines are going to come from or where all these FREE medications are coming from? After all, its FREE isn't it? I suppose all the liberals are going to volunteer to do all those jobs for FREE since they love that system so much.

Maybe Hollywood will start making movies for FREE too so all the poor can see movies again, and all the stars will work for FREE, and so will all the Sports stars and teams too.

Or maybe they can just all go to CUBA, where Democrats are trying to model the Healthcare system after as well as the political system.

Maybe all the Democrats will suddenly decide to serve for FREE and decline any salaries since they think everyone else should work for FREE.

When the economy finishes its collapse... and nobody can get real healthcare much less jobs... they will try to blame it on the evil rich who refuse to do ALL the work and pay ALL the bills. Or like a broken record... blame it on Bush.

I've been inside European Hospitals too many times over the last 25 years, I've seen too many people in them as patients, I've seen too many people die in them... people I knew personally.

I've been in American hospitals too, twice as a patient for surgery.

European Health care and hospitals scare the hell out of me.

I feel the same about American hospitals, and have more than a few horror stories of my own.

If the Supreme court doesn't say its unconstitutional, when a Republican gets voted in and we take over the Senate in 2012 we will repeal it in its entirety.

And even if we don't....we will defund it preventing it from ever taking full effect.

Perhaps after its gone the left will grasp the concept of "Cooperation" doesn't mean ramming something down everyones throats that few actually even want.

And even better...we repeal it using the very same tactics and methods they used to ram it through without a proper vote.

Heck...if the rules allowed THEM to do it....they can't say a thing when we undo it the very same way.




Sounds to me like the right wants to save the future by going back to the past while the left wants to move to the future without considering the past.

Also sounds like a recipe for becoming a political dinosaur.

Tut

Also sounds like a recipe for becoming a political dinosaur


The left ? Absolutely... we are seeing it happening in Greece now ;and it will ripple throughout the states that think they can hold power by distributing largess like bread and circuses to retain power. It has been a recipe for failure in the past ,and so it is today.

the left ? absolutely ... we are seeing it happening in Greece now ;and it will ripple throughout the states that think they can hold power by distributing largess like bread and circuses to retain power. It has been a recipe for failure in the past ,and so it is today.

Hi Tom,

Yes, but I was thinking more in terms of two dinosaurs.

Tut

Sounds to me like the right wants to save the future by going back to the past while the left wants to move to the future without considering the past.

Also sounds like a recipe for becoming a political dinosaur.

Tut

Well the real difference is there is no reason to totally abandon a system that works extremely well for one that works as well nowhere else.

Some people would take anything just because its "FREE" to them rather than pay for something that is far superiour.

I feel the same about American hospitals, and have more than a few horror stories of my own.

Unless you have spent YEARS living somewhere that actually has socialized medicine to compare it to... then all you are doing is blindly accepting something as fact.

I have had the last 25 years to compare European Socialized medicine to the far superiour American system, first hand, with my own eyes.

As I've said before... I have legal residency and work status in the EU. I could hop a flight tomorrow and start working the following day there legally anyplace I want. I've had that status the last 20 years. The 5 years prior to that I was a resident and a military ID card holder but only had work status on a US Militiary base.

Its also sad that most of the people trying to ram that down our throats have never been out of the country at all, and most of the rest haven't been more than tourists. I've actually been a long term resident, I've been through emergency rooms over there, I've been on Ambulances over there... I've been to doctors over there.

99.9% of those who want it, only want something free someone else will have to pay for, and take the word of people who have an agenda to push. The same people that generally know nothing about the real system and have this fictional Utopian view of a system that exists noplace in the world as they imagine it because it doesn't work.

Besides... what most people THINK are free and fully covered under European socialized health care, aren't.

Go to a specialist, you pay out of pocket, prescriptions... out of pocket, go to an optician get mamograms etc... you pay out of pocket. Dentists, out of pocket, eye doctor and glasses... out of pocket.

Go to a private doctor or Private hospital (yes they do have them) you pay out of pocket.

Well the real difference is there is no reason to totally abandon a system that works extremely well for one that works as well nowhere else.



Hi Smoothy,

Could you run that by me again please.

Tut

Then keep what you have and leave everyone else alone.

Hi Smoothy,

Could you run that by me again please.

Tut

The system we have now works very well... why change to a system that works poorly every place else in comparison.

Then keep what you have and leave everyone else alone.

Who and what is that referring to? The lefties want to take a good healthcare system off everyone BUT congress and their Union Supporters (remember all those wavers)... and follishly believe the Obama LIE that you can keep what you have... when its all designed to take that away from everyone... Except of Course CONGRESS and the WHITEHOUSE...

Who by the very act of exempting themselves from it is proof positive what a steaming load of manure it really is. Or they would have it themselves.

So who are you votiing for in the election, Santorum, Hmmm probably Michelle Bachmann! Bet this is hard choice for you since there are so many far righties to choose from.

So who are you votiing for in the election, Santorum, Hmmm probably Michelle Bachmann! Bet this is hard choice for you since there are so many far righties to choose from.

ANYONE but OBAMA would be a HUGE improvement.

Obama has accomplished the impossible... Jimmy Carter is no longer the worst president in our lifetime.

So you don't want to admit Bachmann is your choice huh? Or do you mourn that Christie just said NO?

So you don't want to admit Bachmann is your choice huh?? Or do you mourn that Christie just said NO?

I honestly don't have a preference WHICH Republican gets the nomination at this point... any of them will be a huge improvement over Obama.

I disagree strongly, but you already knew that.

Well... there are a few people that still believe the economy is doing great. I don't know by what definition they use, or how they quantify it... or exactly WHERE in the country that's its doing great.


But then, there are people that believe in Alien abductions, and would argue just as passionately they experienced one if not more.

Take the money out of politics on every level, and they become servants, ours, the peoples, instead of some greedy fats cat who wants mo' money.

So you don't want to admit Bachmann is your choice huh?? Or do you mourn that Christie just said NO?

I don't know why the Republic establishment is fixated on getting a Northeast Republican on the ticket. Do they think Romney or Christie can pick off their state ? Yeah that worked so well for the Dems in 2004 . Didn't Kerry get N Carolina with Edwards on the ticket ? I would jump on the bandwagon of a NE Republican if Rudy would announce. But that won't happen.

I don't think any of the announced candidates will do even though I will vote for whoever is the nominee over the President... hold my nose and vote for Romney even. But it's way to early... There are enough differences between the candidates that I want to hear them make their case .

If I had a say on the candidate then I say without reservation that I'm on the Cain train. But who knows... Palin still looms and I think she'd be a fine President.

So what do you think of Reagan calling for higher taxes on the rich, and closing there loop holes??

The President used Reagan's quotes out of context... nothing new there .

And before you show that miniclip from the 1985 speech let me elaborate. Reagan lowered marginal rates and closed loopholes. Obama's Buffett rule is just a marginal rate increase on a select group of taxpayers. Reagan's tax reforms were on the right course . Obama's is just so much progressive pablum.

Palin still looms and I think she'd be a fine President.
Oh dear.

VIDEO: Reagan Called For An End To 'Crazy' Tax Loopholes That Let Millionaires Pay Less Than Bus Drivers | ThinkProgress (http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/10/03/333912/reagan-tax-loopholes-crazy/)

You can't have it both ways. In truth, he raised and lowered taxes 17 times, not only to battle the budget, but to raise revenue, and for the record, Mr Obama has lowered taxes since he has been in office too. In the stimulus plan, that the right hates, and I the latest Jobs Bill, that the right hates even more.

FLEXIBILITY!

Again Reagan talks of loopholes... Obama talks about marginal rates.

I'm not asking for both ways. I have said put tax reform on the table to simplfy the code. Obama doesn't want that... he wants to score cheap political points with the silly Buffet rule that even Buffet is now backing off from.

Flexibility ? Reagan worked with a dominant Democrat Congress and got his agenda.. That means he had to deal with O'Neal . In Obama's case he flashes an empty piece of paper in the air and yells "pass the bill" knowing his own party in Congress won't touch it.

He tried to work with Bonehead, but yet again for the umpteenth time he was rebuked and what do you do when there is no compromise but plenty of obstruction. He is making the case to the people and the hell with congress, cantor, and bonehead. They asked, no demanded he lead, and now he is so let the chips fall where they may and we see who believes what.

Hey who started this clog up the works and don't let him win, so he can be a one term president crap in the first place.

All you righties care about it seems is the power to tell woman what they should do, trash gays, and start wars, and undermine the basics of America by defunding the government, and making even more poor people than Bush did, and let the free market do whatever it wants. Free market my a$$, take the money and go over seas and come home and talk of uncertainty, regulations and more BS excuses to keep the cash it sucked from the economy so we can be a third world like the rest of the freakin' world.

1% telling the other 99% what to do ain't going to work for me. Give me a break!

I will agree that none of the polocies or regulations of the last 3 years have gone far enough to effectively address the issues we face, but as I see it, the right doesn't want them too.

Ronald Reagan wouldn't have a chance in hell of getting elected in today's Republican Party. What's wrong with that picture.

The system we have now works very well.....why change to a system that works poorly every place else in comparison.


Fair crack of the whip Smoothy. Our system wins hands down ( by comparison).

All you righties care about it seems is the power to tell woman what they should do, trash gays, and start wars, and undermine the basics of America by defunding the government, and making even more poor people than Bush did, and let the free market do whatever it wants. Free market my a$$, take the money and go over seas and come home and talk of uncertainty, regulations and more BS excuses to keep the cash it sucked from the economy so we can be a third world like the rest of the freakin' world.

1% telling the other 99% what to do ain't going to work for me. Give me a break

Yawn... hard refute constructed rants and phantasms. I zoned out after you called protecting the life of an innocent child "telling a women what to do". I can't take an argument seriously that claims that I want to undermine the basis of America by defunding the Levithian that was never the intent of the nation's founding in the 1st place.

Doesn't matter who called for it who's going to do it?

yawn ...hard refute constructed rants and phantasms. I zoned out after you called protecting the life of an innocent child "telling a women what to do". I can't take an argument seriously that claims that I want to undermine the basis of America by defunding the Levithian that was never the intent of the nation's founding in the 1st place.

So preventing abortions is best done by shutting down ALL health care for a female? You have to be kidding me. That's like using a hammer to bust a pimple. Another example of Republican over reach. Just like the effort in Alabama to ban birth control.

And lets be clear, the founding fathers were 19th century men with no clue the direction this country would take, and when you speak of intent, they were well intentioned flawed humans, so don't run that intent of the founding fathers crap because obviously we are into actual practice and far beyond what they intended.

They intended that we would be free but they had slaves, so be careful who you point your intents at and see the actual practice.

And it was my turn to rant anyway. You used yours already. Hmmm, I might have a few more coming if you keep assuming the intent of long ago men. They done good with what they had, now its somebody else's turn.

Yawn Yawn Yawn some very tired issues here. I know you fellows have another year of this. I love elections here. Electioneering starts about six weeks before the election, and then it is over for another three years then we can get down to some good ole politic'n and dirt diggin but confine it to one place far away.

You guys never get out of election mode, it is a wonder you ever get anything done anyway time to discuss something important. This is race week on the mountain and I hear 80 million americans are going to tune in to see the Great Race, 1000 kilometres of V8 fury. I can't hear the buzz of bees yet but come Sunday (Saturday to you) I won't be able to hear myself think

I'll give the President some kudos for FINALLY sending the trade bills with Panama, South Korea and Colombia,that collected dust on his desk for way too long, to Congress .

Obama promised that the trade deals would spawn much needed jobs at home..
“These agreements will support tens of thousands of jobs across the country for workers making products stamped with three proud words: 'Made in America,'"
Duhh you think ?
Why didn't he send them to Congress back in 2009 then ? Don't bother answering.. It's obvious.. He didn't because of his own obstructionist party controlled Congress .

Speaker Bonehead will have the bill on the House floor by next week.

This will expose divisions within the Democrats between those who see the benefit of the job creating in their own states against those who would let their far lefty tendencies prevent a trade agreement with Colombia .

The Senate voted 79-19 to advance legislation that would crack down on China's currency. Minority leader McConnell tried to add the President's job bill to this legislation and Majority leader Reid again took the opportunity to obstruct the President's agenda.

BTW... the Europeans are the canaries in the coal mine.. Their failed system is the model for the American Democrats . Word.

And... Reagan cut the top rate to 28% AND eliminated loopholes, making the tax system flatter, fairer and better, helping the economy. Obama doesn't understand because he focuses on his leftist redistributionist ideology.

Update... Reid realizes he blundered and that McConnell exposed him..
So today he announced that the Dems in the Senate will release his own version of a jobs bill... a surtax on the wealthy... which probably is unconstitutional under the bill of attainer provision of the US Constitution(article 1 sec 9 paragraph 3).

Not surprised... the last few years have shown Reid, Obama and Pelosi have considered the Constitution as an obstruction to their plans to impose Socialism.

Your assertions that the country was doing just great until the Dem's hit town is short sited, and incorrect because we are seeing decades of band aids coming off, and exposing the true extent of the wounds that needed attention.

Things that should have been attended to long ago are coming to light, and it's a lot more than the present governments gridlock that's at the heart of what's going on. The guys you like have done as much dirt as they guys you don't like, but who do you accuse of doing the dirt? The guys you don't like.

Tal I have not been shy at taking the Repubics to task . I have said that their problem is that they think they can be better stewards and managers of the nanny state. You are correct ,the system is flawed at the premise . The premise is that government can take care of your every want and need.

Your assertions that the country was doing just great until the Dem's hit town is short sited, and incorrect because we are seeing decades of band aids coming off, and exposing the true extent of the wounds that needed attention.

Things that should have been attended to long ago are coming to light, and its a lot more than the present governments gridlock thats at the heart of whats going on. The guys you like have done as much dirt as they guys you don't like, but who do you accuse of doing the dirt? The guys you don't like.

Gee... thats the new liberal excuse for Obamas disasters... well it doesn't work. Nobody believes it any more than most people no longer believe a thing Obama says.

The Economy was doing a lot better before Obama came to town and the lefties gave him everything he asked for for two years.

Now they are trying to weasle out of taking responsibility for the mess they created of the economy and the incredible increases on unemployment numbers... even the REPORTED unemployment numbers are far higher than they were under Bush... the National DEBT is far higher than under Bush... and the REAL unemployment number they avoid like the plague... is even far higher.

Face it... this is what the Dems wanted... time for them to "MAN UP" and accept their responsibility in it all.

I'd rather have the worst economy I saw under Bush... than the best I have seen under Obama, and so would most of the USA.

tal I have not been shy at taking the Repubics to task . I have said that their problem is that they think they can be better stewards and managers of the nanny state. You are correct ,the system is flawed at the premise . The premise is that government can take care of your every want and need.

I will be honest Tom in saying that we the people have not made OUR needs, and wants more apparent when it comes to our government, and so it was bought behind our backs by other interests.

I am for effective government working in my behalf. I should have 536 people working for me. And the whole freakin' state of Texas should be taking care of MY interests. All of them, or they all should be fired and replaced.

That's not asking too much I don't think.

Originally Posted by tomder55
Palin still looms and I think she'd be a fine President.

Oh dear.

She made her decision. She will not run. The left has temporarily succeeded in eliminating her from the scene with vile attacks on her and her family .
But don't gloat too much .She will not fade from the public scene and will have a say in this election.

Ahhhhhhhh!! Double whammy! Marco Rubio has dropped out of consideration for VP...

Having a bad day Tom? Don't worry Eric Cantor is looking into the VP slot.

Ron Paul would be a huge improvement over anyone the Democrats are fielding... and I'm no Ron Paul follower.

Having a bad day Tom? Don't worry Eric Cantor is looking into the VP slot.

I'm counting on Cantor to become majority leader.

I knew that would raise your spirits. :D :)