Hello:

Have you heard right wingers complain about the 50% of Americans who pay NO federal taxes? Of course, you have. What do you think the wingers are trying to say?? Seems to me, they're trying to say that the POOR should pay more taxes... Doesn't it seem like it to you??

Then, when Democrats suggest raising taxes on the super duper wealthy, they're accused of class warfare. Hmmm?? That ain't right. It ain't right at all.

Before we get into it, I want to define "shared sacrifice". It's NOT the wealthy paying for everything... It's NOT the poor or the middle class paying for everything... It's SHARED. It's like that HUGE log a team of Nave Seal recruits are required to carry... You know the one.

Now, with a dozen people carrying the log, it really wouldn't be too heavy if one of the guys stopped for a smoke.. The others COULD carry the load. But, they'd NOTICE that somebody thought he wasn't required to share, and they WOULDN'T like it one bit. Will sharing make the difference between the log getting carried or not? No, but it WILL make a difference in how everybody FEELS about each other.

What's so hard about that?

excon

"It only stands to reason that where there's sacrifice, there's someone collecting the sacrificial offerings. Where there's service, there is someone being served. The man who speaks to you of sacrifice is speaking of slaves and masters, and intends to be the master."
(Ayn Rand )

"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own neccessities but of their advantages."
(Adam Smith )

BTW... Warren Buffett owes $1 billion in back taxes .

You should stop going by what it "seems" to you and focus on what's actually being said.

Is half the country poor?

You are living with a spirit of poverty 50% can find no way out of their predicament and 50% want more

No Clete, I want a real answer. Is half the country poor?

Speech statistically 1 in 6 live in poverty. Being poor is a relative issue because the only measure you have is income or access to services. You cannot judge the level of poverty by the impact of the tax system because the tax system has been used to subsidise certain activities such as home ownership.

EX has put another strawman out there, that not paying tax includes you among the poor. By his standard some millionaires and billionaires are poor because of the level of tax they pay.

Let me put it this way, I pay no income tax but this doesn't mean I live below the poverty level

Hey Ex, you mean with closing American factories and going over seas for slave labor, or stuffing their mattresses with tax money and loopholes, or sucking all the money from the economy, sending youngsters over seas to die for them, or changing the name of fat cat to job creator, or making everyone grateful to be a dish washer, or maid, or calling firefighters, teachers, and police, lazy greedy bums?

Or the one where the right is mad about a Democrat, who happens to be a black guy in the White House??

Or the one that thinks a fence will keep them safe from the brown people, and their kids?

Or the one that can't stand the idea of a gay person with a gun, or wedding ring?

Or the one that can't stand people voting?

Or the one that doesn't believe in building anything they can't profit from?

Or the one that can't stand slavery being outlawed, so they hate the idea of a former slave living next door, or being as smart as they are?

Or the one where after they get theirs, they burn the bridge behind them?

Or the one where they don't think, they know they are better than the lazy bum down the street?

Be clear will you, which class war are you talking about. There seems to be a bunch of 'em going on.

Hey Tal you left some out

What about the War on Drugs, seems the outcome of that is class warfare

How about the War on Terror, which has terrorised millions of Muslims. That is a class war

But you are right you really do have a bad case of class warfare with your rich unwilling to pay for the bad policies they lobbied to get legislated

I got tired of typing Clete, and its Sunday football too, but politicians love to incite and fire up there political base to win elections. They all do it, and it's the biggest game in town.

That's why the world has to suffer, because any good news out of Washington keeps the Democrat in the White House, and that's all the Right Wing Cares about. They can't even fake it, and act like they want good policies that will work.

Thats why the world has to suffer, because any good news out of Washington keeps the Democrat in the White House, and thats all the Right Wing Cares about. They can't even fake it, and act like they want good policies that will work.

I didn't figure you for a Republican Tal but surely a Democrat in the White House doesn't mean the whole world suffers, just a small part of it, although I will admit the suffering is spreading. I can't really say it is down to him though, he is only Johnny come lately. He has condescended to come for a visit in November so we will see if the level of suffering increases then.

From observation, and of course it is a long way off, these would be politicians seem all to speak off the same play bill. It seems both sides want tax reform, both sides want debt reduction, must be confusing

So in other words, ex is not interested in answering my question.

I can answer your question Steve, while the money has dried up for many of the American people there is still access to food, water, and shelter, and even medical care but that's still poverty in America, but no half is a bit high but 20-30 percent in some areas are unacceptable as a nation, since half of those numbers are children. Now they say the nation average is one in six, and that translates to almost 60 million people. And as I say half are children.

That number will trend up as the stimulus money wanes even more in the next 8 months. And yes even here in Texas those numbers are starting to rise, reflected in the unemployment numbers, and rising number of Medicaid, and welfare recipients increase. Most disturbing will be the cuts to come in education grants, mostly in the health care sector. Targeted at unemployed youth in this state, and the loss of federal dollars to hospitals and clinics that depend on those programs.

If you examine the trends that go back more than ten years, (you could go further if you include stagnated wages, and the aging population), you will see in the NEXT 10 years, a doubling of those poverty numbers simply because there will be more people who cannot qualify for the more technical better paying jobs, or even the vocational ones as we transition to a continuing higher level of educational qualifications.

Yeah we could lose a couple of generations to this brain drain which will be the basis of the growing poverty challenges we face now.

Did that answer your question, Steve?

Democrats think 50% should pay no taxes... and the other half that does work to earn their money should pay EVERYTHING.

And the left doesn't understand why jobs and money are going overseas. I'm hardly wealthy and I'm stuffing money overseas since I'm one of that 50% that actually does have to pay taxes. And yes... there are ways to do it that are essentually untracible... but I'm not revealing how.

Democrats think 50% should pay no taxes Weird you think that since policy was enacted by a Republican.

In 2007, about 38 percent of households paid no federal income tax, a figure that jumped to 49 percent in 2008, according to estimates by the Tax Policy Center.

In 2008, President George W. Bush signed a law providing most families with rebate checks of $300 to $1,200.

You are so wrong here my friend. The left knows full well why jobs go overseas and it has NOTHING to do with taxes, but MO' money from easy untapped markets and cheap labor. If it was about TAXES, where the freak was the capital investment for the last 10 years, when the FAT CATS not only had low taxes, and low wages, but loop holes up the butt?

The present recession and the BS about taxes was from greed, and robbery, that sucked all the loot out of the system. As long as you make this about taxes, you will never see that YOU WERE ROBBED.

Go ahead keep hollering taxes and lazy poor people, but you were robbed as much as I was. Now the villains are holed up with there loot, and you are screaming at the posse.

They have money to buy more politicians and holler uncertainty, while YOU, and the minions they stole from (me too!! ) defend them.

Unbelievable.

Really, that's what you want to think...

Taxes area HUGE part of why jobs went overseas... no its not the only reason, but it's a big part of it.

Liberals believe 90% taxes are fair for those that work the hardest, yet those who make no real effort to get ahead should get a free pass. Soun'ds like the old USSR... why break a sweat when the powers that be won't let you earn more than the guy selling cigaretts on the corner. Why bust your butt with 8 years of college and study when you get criticised for making more than the high school dropout that's barely literate stocking shelves at Walmart.

And that its not fair to expect everyone to pay equal percentages of their income in taxes. 24% of 10K is far less than 24% of 10 million... the "rich" still pay far more. But they get raped equally percentage wise.

Where equal actually IS the only "FAIR" thing to do.

I can answer your question Steve, while the money has dried up for many of the American people their is still access to food, water, and shelter, and even medical care but thats still poverty in America, but no half is a bit high but 20-30 percent in some areas are unacceptable as a nation, since half of those numbers are children. Now they say the nation average is one in six, and that translates to almost 60 million people. and as I say half are children..

Did that answer your question, Steve?

Thanks Tal, but not really. It's actually about 15 percent in poverty as defined by the Census Bureau.

Based on the 2005 records available, the median "poor" in America have air conditioning, a clothes washer, a clothes dryer, ceiling fans, a cordless phone, two color televisions, cable or satellite TV, a DVD player, VCR, refrigerator, an oven and stove, a microwave, and a coffee maker.

54.5% have a cell phone, 38.2 % have a computer, 32.2% have more than 2 TVs, 17.9% have a big screen TV, 9% have 2 refrigerators and 6% have a jacuzzi.

I'm not poor and I got my first big screen TV in December, I only have 1 fridge and I can only dream of owning a jacuzzi right now. As a scholar named James Q. Wilson said in 2002, “The poorest Americans today live a better life than all but the richest persons a hundred years ago.”

"Poor" is a deceptive term used in this country. Poor is my sponsored child Sizari in Peru. Poor is my sponsored child Imelda in El Salvador. Poor is my sponsored child Robert in an AIDS stricken community in Africa. Poor is not 3 TVs and a jacuzzi.

Now, ex said ”Seems to me, they're trying to say that the POOR should pay more taxes."

All I'm saying is half of America is not "poor" and most of them are definitely not too poor to not only contribute a few bucks to running this nation, but grabbing that mop you mentioned and helping someone else out just as I do.

Most of the rest of America's "poor" don't have it so bad, but for those who do I'm all for giving them a hand up - and helping them get to where they can "pay it forward" as well instead of not only keeping them on the Federal teat, but adding to the welfare rolls so some liberal can feel good about his warped view of "fairness".

Is half the country poor?Hello again, Steve:

They're poor enough to earn LESS than is required to pay federal income tax - which is fine by me. As previously discussed, they pay PLENTY of taxes. The class war I speak of is YOUR desire to fill the hole we find ourselves in, by taxing the working poor more instead of the super rich.

I'd go the other way.

excon

All I'm saying is half of America is not "poor" and most of them are definitely not too poor to not only contribute a few bucks to running this nation, but grabbing that mop you mentioned and helping someone else out just as I do. Hello again, Steve:

You're not going back to that right wing lie that 47% of the people pay NO taxes at all, are you?? If that were true, then I'd agree. They should contribute something to running the nation...

BUT IT'S NOT TRUE!!

excon

If you are a working guy then you do pay a payroll tax, 20 to 30 percent of your wages, and that's money the government uses for services and programs.

Even if you get a refund after filing, you lose X amount of dollars every time you get paid. So that's a straw man that poor don't pay taxes, and it's that Government that allows for being poor in America to be a lot better than anywhere in the world. That doesn't mean we aren't poor, just not as hopelessly poor as 99 percent of the world.

And I know you are aware of the other American economy, run by poor people, for poor people, who barter, and hustle every day, to get those TV's and good they normally cannot get from the real economy. Its been going on for a few centuries, sort of like giving the doctor a chicken for services.

So just because you aren't dirt poor, doesn't mean you aren't poor, and by the way many in some areas of America ARE dirt poor. And there standards of living is abysmal, and make no mistake though the Consensus Bureau put an average number on poverty with perks, you cannot deny that the number is higher in areas where poor people and disadvantaged people live, heck Steve right here in Texas the unemployment numbers were higher than the national average BEFORE the housing bubble burst, and despite all the jobs created here, its still ticking up slowly.

WHY??

A big FACT you and the right keep overlooking is that every dollar of tax relief, or food stamps to middle class and poor people returns a dollar and 15 cents. Why because they spend it, and pay sales taxes. What you thought those were RICH people in Walmart, Targets, and Kroger's?

Conversely Steve, a tax cut for a hedge fund manager, goes to Wall Street, or overseas, to make more money. They don't have a payroll tax, just lawyers, and accountants directing money into tax shelters, and off country banks never to be seen by America again. They don't pay for the roads, or rails, your tax dollars do, or the police, and fire you depend on, and they use also, because they pay almost no tax on what they use to make money with.

Ever wonder why states sell roads to foreign companies and no American company will invest in them? There ain't enough money in it, or you can bet, rich Americans would be all over it.

But the do pay money for long term treasury bonds. I just ask you look deeper into the cause and effects and actions that are being taken to undermine an effort to CIRCULATE the wealth, and though you are doing what you can with YOUR mop, some people will RESIST getting a mop for themselves, let alone using it, to clean up there own mess they made.

Heck Steve, they don't want you to clean it up either.

INVESTIGATE.

HINT- Why would the congress not want to give the middle class an extension on tax cuts? Why are they against giving small businesses a tax credit, or provide for low interest loans from community banks??

Why??

Need another hint?

Okay, most small businesses are lawyers, doctors, consultants and other LLC's that don't create jobs. They pay no payroll taxes either. Do the math. Draw your own conclusions, and figure out which side of this class war you are on.

On another note, have you heard the joke, Corporations are people too?

Hello again, Steve:

They're poor enough to earn LESS than is required to pay federal income tax

Again, they aren't poor and that's my point. Just ask ol' Warren Buffett, he's probably in that half that pay no taxes. If I had a couple of kids and a decent accountant I could probably get by with paying no federal income tax and I'm not poor.

I have no problem with those who actually live in poverty paying no federal income tax. I have no problem with those who are actually in need receiving government benefits. I'll go to the store myself and buy groceries for someone who is hungry.

It is NOT an issue of taking care of the needy because Americans are a GENEROUS people, ESPECIALLY evangelical conservatives who comprise a very significant portion of the people you are demonizing as having started a class war. I just happen to also believe that those who CAN take care of themselves should do everything they can to do just that, and believe it or not there are a lot of people who work the system for a living.

It doesn't make me cold hearted to be cautious about who gets a handout because I will help. BUT, if someone is scamming me they are taking from me what I could use on someone who really needs the help. Well my friend, this nation needs to stop coddling deadbeats. I don't care how much money the Kochs have, there is no fairness in demanding they support deadbeats and there is no dignity in keeping people dependent on government.

If my values offend you so be it, but I believe it's perfectly fine to be generous to the needy while expecting the rest to do everything in their power to take care of themselves so MY resources can be used where they are actually needed. Now multiply that to the federal level because as Maggie said, eventually we're going to run out of other people's money and I'd rather feed a starving child than buy some deadbeat another TV.

In Peru where Sizari lives, the median household income is $2600. At times they experience a 50% unemployment rate and more than half have no access to health care. The poor in Peru don't often have adequate sanitation or safe water to drink.

According to this site (http://www.globalissues.org/article/26/poverty-facts-and-stats) over 80% of the world lives on less than $10.00 a day. Additionally:

Some 1.1 billion people in developing countries have inadequate access to water, and 2.6 billion lack basic sanitation.

Almost two in three people lacking access to clean water survive on less than $2 a day, with one in three living on less than $1 a day.

More than 660 million people without sanitation live on less than $2 a day, and more than 385 million on less than $1 a day.

Now that's POOR.

So, back to your premise that Republicans just want POOR Americans to pay more in taxes. If they're POOR then no. If they're BLESSED to have food, water, A/C, a cell phone, 3 TVs and a jacuzzi, you're damn right I want them to pay SOMETHING in federal taxes.

A big FACT you and the right keep overlooking is that every dollar of tax relief, or food stamps to middle class and poor people returns a dollar and 15 cents. Why because they spend it, and pay sales taxes. What you thought those were RICH people in Walmart, Targets, and Kroger's?

Here it would be $1.08. So when do we run out of other people's money by giving it to a "poor" person so the dollar store can sell a bag of donuts and the government can get 8 cents of their dollar back?


Conversely Steve, a tax cut for a hedge fund manager, goes to Wall Street, or overseas, to make more money. They don't have a payroll tax, just lawyers, and accountants directing money into tax shelters, and off country banks never to be seen by America again. They don't pay for the roads, or rails, your tax dollars do, or the police, and fire you depend on, and they use also, because they pay almost no tax on what they use to make money with.

I have not asked for a tax cut for some hedge fund manager, I think Soros should pay federal taxes until it hurts.


Ever wonder why states sell roads to foreign companies and no American company will invest in them?

No, I have never wondered that. As far as I know all but the private roads in my area are owned by the city, county, state or the feds.


some people will RESIST getting a mop for themselves,

And some will suck us dry while the truly needy go without.

And some will suck us dry while the truly needy go without.

We agree.

A big FACT you and the right keep overlooking is that every dollar of tax relief, or food stamps to middle class and poor people returns a dollar and 15 cents. Why because they spend it, and pay sales taxes. What you thought those were RICH people in Walmart, Targets, and Kroger's??

Conversely Steve, a tax cut for a hedge fund manager, goes to Wall Street, or overseas, to make more money. They don't have a payroll tax, just lawyers, and accountants directing money into tax shelters, and off country banks never to be seen by America again. They don't pay for the roads, or rails, your tax dollars do, or the police, and fire you depend on, and they use also, because they pay almost no tax on what they use to make money with.

Ever wonder why states sell roads to foreign companies and no American company will invest in them? There ain't enough money in it, or you can bet, rich Americans would be all over it.

But the do pay money for long term treasury bonds. I just ask you look deeper into the cause and effects and actions that are being taken to undermine an effort to CIRCULATE the wealth, and though you are doing what you can with YOUR mop, some people will RESIST getting a mop for themselves, let alone using it, to clean up there own mess they made.

Heck Steve, they don't want you to clean it up either.

INVESTIGATE.

HINT- Why would the congress not want to give the middle class an extension on tax cuts? Why are they against giving small businesses a tax credit, or provide for low interest loans from community banks???

Why?????That HAS to be Liberal math... not any sort of math that achieves a real answer.

The Government takes $1 off me... I have lost opportunity and can't spend it much less make money or invest it. And removes any incentive to earn another buck for that to be taken too.

Yet they claim that earns MORE money by giving it to someone that never earned it.?

It actually Looses money, not gains it.

Lets take YOUR entire paycheck... give it to the Project rats... lets see how much extra that earns for you and the government.

Sure the Project rats love the idea... but they are the only ones that profit over it. After all they got the paycheck someone else had to work to earn, not them. Remind yourself how much further ahead you actually are when bill time rolls around.

Pecular ideas. Smoothy you look to keep every dollar you ever earned, taxation is theft, right?

You want someoneelse to provide all those little services you need and use. Don't tell me you will pay yourself because these things can only be provided collectively. Your taxes buy roads, police, emergency services, bridges etc invisable most of the time and it should be extended to helping the less fortunate, keeps them out of your face, right?

I make the most of my check after taxes. Even when I was a project rat. Maybe I still am. That's not my value as a human, neither is my paycheck.

So do you sign the little box at the bottom of your tax return forms every year and donate a far bigger portion than you otherwise would have to pay? I'll wager you don't.

Pecular ideas. Smoothy you look to keep every dollar you ever earned, taxation is theft, right?

You want someoneelse to provide all those little services you need and use. Don't tell me you will pay yourself because these things can only be provided collectively. Your taxes buy roads, police, emergency services, bridges etc invisable most of the time and it should be extended to helping the less fortunate, keeps them out of your face, right?

I expect EVERYONE to pay an equal percentage of taxes... which doesn't happen, and its those same leeches that don't pay any Federal taxes, that are the major recipients of Federal handouts. That of course I have to pay far more of since then pay none of it.

And yeah... I ticks me off in a major way.

smoothy how do you measure that the person on the poverty line should pay the same percentage as you do? Or is it you want the billionaire to pay the same percentage as you do. Flat rate tax doesn't work it punishes those who can least afford it. Would you agree to abolishing all deductions and allowances?

smoothy how do you measure that the person on the poverty line should pay the same percentage as you do? or is it you want the billionaire to pay tehe same percentage as you do. Flat rate tax doesn't work it punishes those who can least afford it. Would you agree to abolishing all deductions and allowances?

They should pay the same percentage... 24% of $10,000 is not the same dollar amount as 24% of $1,000,000. But it is a fair equal percentage of your income.

Actions have consequences... the choice to drop out of High school, or not apply yourself when you are there... doesn't earn you a right to a free ride for life.

What world do you live in? Not on planet Earth apparently. If you loose $2,400 dollars out of $10,000 the possibility is you won't eat some of the time. If you loose $240,000 out of $1,000,000 you still have $760,000 and the ability to live very well. The person who earns $10,000 should pay no tax and let's face it, it matters not to the person who earns $1,000,000

What world do you live in? Not on planet Earth apparently. If you loose $2,400 dollars out of $10,000 the possibility is you won't eat some of the time. If you loose $240,000 out of $1,000,000 you still have $760,000 and the ability to live very well. The person who earns $10,000 should pay no tax and let's face it, it matters not to the person who earns $1,000,000

So? Why should the person that busted their butt in school, and busted their butt in college, and then busted their butt paying for college along with doing a far harder job have to pay not only for themselves but ALSO pay for the lazy bum that coasted through high school (assuming they even bothered to finish it), made no effort at higher education, and is happy doing the easiest job they can find?

Most poor people are poor due to their own choices in life. Now I am speaking of here in the USA where you have plenty of opportunity IF you apply yourself. Not Ethiopia, Not Sudan, and not India.

You are responsible for the choices you make in life. And being stupid and lazy isn't a free ticket for a free ride.

Maybe raising taxes on rich people like you would be just the thing to spur investment, and stop being fat and lazy about that big bag of loot you sit on. Unless you printed it yourself, somebody had to help you make it right?

Maybe raising taxes on rich people like you would be just the thing to spur investment, and stop being fat and lazy about that big bag of loot you sit on. Unless you printed it yourself, somebody had to help you make it right?

Gee, how about practicing what you preach... You should be happy to hand all your money over to be redistributed.

Or is it just like every other Democrat... you are only generous with other peoples money?

Trust me... my money would slip out of the country before they could seize it like the left would really love to do. Not that I have that much of it, but being Obama thinks I'm rich since I will be bearing the cost of his socialist programs... then why exactly should HIS millions be exempt from confiscation... and yes he does have Millions sitting in the banks.

And he is the Messiah isn't justification...

Or Hollywood. Why don't you take everything from the Hollywood types... and give it to the welfare bums? They hardly worked hard to earn it.

But then... anyone that can't see beyond their hatred of people that created this country... and want to exempt Hollywood who do nothing but pretend... really can't understand the real problem.

See how long we get by without big business? Not long I tell you. But we can get along quite well without Sports teams, and Hollywood for a very, very long time.

And besides... its my damn money, not yours, not anyone else's... I earned it, what I do with it is my business. And if I want to sit on it, its mine to sit on.

Why isn't Obamas millions invested someplace? He's got it stashed in several banks doing nothing that any big business isn't doing until someone that's pro-capitalism gets into office again.

Obama is no messiah, neither is the dollar. I worship neither, and neither do they define me.

Why do they define you??

They may not define you, but explain the rabid fury the left has to steal from those who work the hardest and those who have managed to become successful, to give it to those who are either too dumb or too lazy?

It doesn't "DEFINE" me either... but it has everything to do with providing for myself and my family, not only now, but after I am too old to work. Because heaven knows... I am the wrong racial background to expect handouts when I might need them. Particualrly with the correctly named Ponzi scheme, Social Security... take the money , waste it on other things, give it to people that never earned it, then after paying into it your entire adult life, when you need it, you get a sorry, but there's nothing left.

I don't have a big family... or a wealthy one... in fact I am the one who is best off in my family. I have no safety net, I have no one who can cover for me because thanks to Obama and what he did to the economy, they are barely able to take care of their own needs.

OK, if you aren’t tired of these so-called “Patriotic Millionaires” like Warren Buffet begging to be taxed more while refusing to send their extra money to the feds, maybe after this you will be.

Yesterday at Obama’s campaign event, “town hall” I believe he called it, an ex-Google employee asked Obama to raise his taxes. Right on cue of course, especially since he was a plant (http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/184327-liberal-group-takes-credit-for-audience-member-asking-obama-to-raise-taxes) from the “Patriotic Millionaires.”


“Will you please raise my taxes?” the man said. “It kills me to see Congress not supporting the expiration of the tax cuts that have been benefiting so many of us for so long."

What’s really interesting in this is besides the fact the “Patriotic Millionaires” furnished Obama a plant for his campaign event, I mean town hall, and won’t give a generous offering to the government – is they want you to donate to their cause. They want YOU to pay for their campaign to raise other people’s taxes.

http://legalinsurrection.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Patriotic-Millionaires-Banner.jpg

OK all you progressives, show us your patriotism and send them your money (http://legalinsurrection.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Patriotic-Millionaires-Banner.jpg) so you can get your taxes raised.

Americans think they are highly taxed when they are one of the lowest taxes countries on earth. Denmark has the highest taxes. The tea party is being totally unreasonable about never wanting to raise taxes. They seem to forget that their hero Ronald Reagan raised taxes when it was necessary. Progress won't be made until most tea party fools in the House are defeated and I'm pretty right leaning on economic issues. One thing I find odd is that the tea party's policies support the rich, so whey are their biggest supporters trailer trash morons who can't even spell properly on their signs at rallies?

Oops, how embarrassing and ironic that I made a spelling error in my last sentence.

Americans think they are highly taxed when they are one of the lowest taxes countries on earth. Denmark has the highest taxes. The tea party is being totally unreasonable about never wanting to raise taxes. They seem to forget that their hero Ronald Reagan raised taxes when it was necessary. Progress won't be made until most tea party fools in the House are defeated and I'm pretty right leaning on economic issues. One thing I find odd is that the tea party's policies support the rich, so whey are their biggest supporters trailer trash morons who can't even spell properly on their signs at rallies?

I fail to understand it either.

Perspective is always a difficult thing to understand. Here in Australia the level of tax doesn't seem that high and yet we were told only recently we are among the highest taxed people on Earth. So I guess the system works and the maximum fleece is obtained with the minimum of bleeting, where as across the big pond the opposite appears to be true, the fleece is short and the sheep bleet inceasantly.

Perhaps on this side of the pond we the sheep haven't resigned ourselves to serfdom .

Americans think they are highly taxed when they are one of the lowest taxes countries on earth. Denmark has the highest taxes. The tea party is being totally unreasonable about never wanting to raise taxes. They seem to forget that their hero Ronald Reagan raised taxes when it was necessary. Progress won't be made until most tea party fools in the House are defeated and I'm pretty right leaning on economic issues. One thing I find odd is that the tea party's policies support the rich, so whey are their biggest supporters trailer trash morons who can't even spell properly on their signs at rallies?

Gee, YOU pay stupid high taxes so anyone else in the world that doesn't think they should as well are being unreasonible?

I don't see the left handing over their fortunes to the covernment... or are the real hypocrites really the lefties.

But then... I see just how robust that wonderful European Economy is with those crippling taxes... as well as the unemployment numbers over the last several decades.

The only fools are those that think they are entitled to take what someone else has earned so they can spend it on the lazy who can't be bothered to take the effort.

The rich earned that money... and what reasonible concept of reality are the lazy entitiled to take what they didn't earn from those who did. And why is the government taking it any different that some thug on the street doing it.

Both steal the earnings off someone to give it to someone who didn't earn it because they felt entitled to it.

The ONLY difference is one uses a physical weapon.

perhaps on this side of the pond we the sheep haven't resigned ourselves to serfdom .

Don't believe what Tut tells you, there are no serfs here, there are certainly no monarchs but more than enough queens. The spirit of this nation is a fair go and that includes each paying their fair share, whereas your low taxes ensure that only half pay and half starve

There are very few people here actually "starving".

Poor people that have Cell phones, Cars, Cable TV, and game systems along with Color TV's, and Microwaves... can afford food. Particularly with food stamps so many get.

The poor might actually die of starvation in third world countries... but they don't here.

The percentages of the "so called" starving poor suffering obesity or even morbid obesity will show lack of sufficient nutrition is not a problem they suffer from.

The spirit of this nation is a fair go and that includes each paying their fair share,Who determines what a fair share is ? There are some who believe in "liberty" and some who believe in the "general will " .You call the general will fair . I don't .Your philosophy comes from the French 1789 Declaration of the Rights of Man with the premise that "The principle of all sovereignty resides essentially in the nation. No body nor individual may exercise any authority which does not proceed directly from the nation"..."Law is the expression of the general will."

Mine is more in tune with John Adams authored 'Declaration of the Rights of the Inhabitants of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts'... "All men are born free and equal, and have certain natural, essential, and unalienable rights; among which may be reckoned the right of enjoying and defending their lives and liberties; that of acquiring, possessing, and protecting property; in fine, that of seeking and obtaining their safety and happiness." Governments are created to secure these rights.
Under our system it's not up to the general will to determine fairness. Everyone is free to pursue their prosperity .
At the end of our revolution we did not expropriate the wealth of the rich for the common good or for fairness .We did not nationalize other peoples property .

The French did and the result was the Reign of Terror and ultimately the Napoleon dictatorship.

If the government is we the people, then the people can demand change. Isn't that why we vote? A weak government is a weak people, where individuals that can, will take that weakness to rob us blind. And they did. Have been for a while. To say that's not the case, is to ignore facts. A dwindling middle class, and the rise of the poverty level, and 10% unemployment.

Personally, just me, I would unite at the polls and vote every body who wasn't on MY side OUT!!

A weak government that gets out of the way of those that would rob, steal, pollute, and hoard? No WAY. An effective one that works for all of us equally, that's what I vote for. I vote to circulate the money, that simple, let every body be able to touch the tools of a strong growing economy. That's the class warfare. Those that can use the tools, and those that have no tools.

The way it is now, only the rich can get a loan from the bank, to buy anything. That's not fair.

The way it is now, only the rich can get a loan from the bank, to buy anything. Thats not fair.

Gee, if that was the case all along the housing bubble would have never burst. People getting mortgages that should never have thanks to a Plan Obama was part of before he ever ran for a political office and came into being under Bill Clinton.

All those deadbeat poor people refusing to pay their mortgages... I mean imagine... being expected to pay money you borrow back... and having to prove you are capable of paying a loan back before someone will loan you any money... for shame... for shame.

How much of his own money has George Soros handed out to the poor with no expectations of a repayment or GASP... interest, How about Warren Buffett?

You have a right to anything you can actually pay for yourself... and not one thing more.

Everyone isn't "entitled" to own a property they can't or won't pay for. That's what Rentals are for.

People aren't entitled to free handouts either... you want to borrow money, you are expected to pay it back with interest. Or here is a novel concept... save the money up before you buy something and pay cash.

That just it Smoothy. Banks where giving loans to anybody, instead of refusing them. Why, because it was highly profitable. Second mortgages? Highly profitable. But now they can't even say who owns those mortgages ant more, because they "bundled" them and sold them for even more profit. Then they laid off those people and now you have a bunch of empty houses, and even still, banks make more money foreclosing, than they do negotiating. That's why the states are investigating the banks, and the insurance companies and the role they are playing in the housing industry crash. Its was a rip off.

No different than the tech bubble, or the junk bond bubble, just bigger.

That just it Smoothy. Banks where giving loans to anybody, instead of refusing them. Why, because it was highly profitable. Second mortgages? Highly profitable. But now they can't even say who owns those mortgages ant more, because they "bundled" them and sold them for even more profit. Then they laid off those people and now you have a bunch of empty houses, and even still, banks make more money foreclosing, than they do negotiating. Thats why the states are investigating the banks, and the insurance companies and the role they are playing in the housing industry crash. Its was a rip off.

No different than the tech bubble, or the junk bond bubble, just bigger.

They did't do it because it was profitible... but what was it called, the Community reinvestment act... actually forced them into giving loans they once wouldn't touch because they were too risky. Under the pretext everyone deserved to own their own home.

And the fact is, everyone isn't, because far too many people aren't responsible enough, or insist on buying more than they could reasonibly afford.

And the Bundling was just an offshoot of that to find some way to make some money off that risk.

A lot of foreclosures are people walking away because it dropped to less than they paid, not because they couldn't afford to pay. That's an example of people that should have never received a loan because that irresponsibility would have been reflected in their credit history.

That's pure BS, it was all about greed. That's why they had deregulated the freaking banking industry in the first place. It made it legal to steal, and you can whitewash it any way you please, but that's what happens every time you hire a fox to guard the hen house. The hens disappear. It's a great idea, people in houses, but they had no choice but to walk away, before they were kicked out. Credit ruined in any case.

The banks WANT you to walk away, they profit from that too!They just resell it to someone who has some money. You know, the ones with jobs still, that didn't get laid off, or over leveraged.

Heck, the banks don't even know who owns the house anymore, they lost 90% of the original records remember?

Deregulated Corporate Power=GREED!! That's what the war is about.

That's what the DNC wants you to think... the banks didn't give mortgages to the lazy bums with the bad credit because they wanted to, they did it because they were forced to. Under Bill Clinton.

The Democrats spent the last several decades preaching about how EVERYONE deserves to own their own home... its their right after all, Nothing was said about them having to actually pay for it... but there are those that believe they should not have to.

And now the left wants to pretend they never wanted the deadbeats to get mortgages?


http://www.mediacircus.com/2008/10/obama-sued-citibank-under-cra-to-force-it-to-make-bad-loans/

Towards the bottom is Obama on Video in 2007 saying it was a GOOD idea.

Having a house is great, but the DNC (or the RNC) forced no banks to give out loans that they knew couldn't be paid. The greedy bankers approved such loans because they established a hook up with the insurance companies to provide them with the means to make money, and cash in when the loan was defaulted. They rigged the game to fail, for profit, and passed all those bad loans to global banks. Repubs, AND Dem's VOTED to deregulate the banks and let them police themselves, just as they do other corporations.

See what big oil is doing, and wants to do more of it.

You are entitled to your opinion, but not your own facts. To ignore what was done by the banks, insurance companies, rating agencies, and politicians is... supporting criminal activity. Funny how you jump on one criminal, and not the other. This was definitely BIPARTISAN stupidity.

Having a house is great, but the DNC (or the RNC) forced no banks to give out loans that they knew couldn't be paid. The greedy bankers approved such loans because they established a hook up with the insurance companies to provide them with the means to make money, and cash in when the loan was defaulted. They rigged the game to fail, for profit, and passed all those bad loans to global banks. Repubs, AND Dem's VOTED to deregulate the banks and let them police themselves, just as they do other corporations.

See what big oil is doing, and wants to do more of it.

You are entitled to your opinion, but not your own facts. To ignore what was done by the banks, insurance companies, rating agencies, and politicians is ........................... supporting criminal activity. Funny how you jump on one criminal, and not the other. This was definitely BIPARTISAN stupidity.

Yes they did... Obama was part of that lawsuit making them... the CRA is all about that right to its core... and even Obama says as much in his own words on video...

If the Messiah says it on video... you are committing blasphemy for not believing his words. Its right out of the horses mouth... you are trying to argue Obama isn't part of something he himself says he was?

From that first lawsuit the total reason for all of that was to give unqualified people loans for houses they could never afford, because after all, to deny an unqualified applicant a loan is racist.

Subprime mortgage crisis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subprime_mortgage_crisis#Impact_in_the_U.S).


The Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission reported in January 2011: "In the early part of the 20th century, we erected a series of protections—the Federal Reserve as a lender of last resort, federal deposit insurance, ample regulations—to provide a bulwark against the panics that had regularly plagued America’s banking system in the 20th century. Yet, over the past 30-plus years, we permitted the growth of a shadow banking system—opaque and laden with short term debt—that rivaled the size of the traditional banking system. Key components of the market—for example, the multitrillion-dollar repo lending market, off-balance-sheet entities, and the use of over-the-counter derivatives—were hidden from view, without the protections we had constructed to prevent financial meltdowns. We had a 21st-century financial system with 19th-century safeguards."[59]

The b@stards took a good idea, and got greedy. Read the whole darn thing and stop with the edited snipets of some right wing blog.

And Chris Dodd and Barney Frank, along with John Kerry, Hillary Clinton and Barrak Obaba were right smack in the middle of the Fannie Mae debackle...

Subprime mortgage crisis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subprime_mortgage_crisis#Impact_in_the_U.S).



The b@stards took a good idea, and got greedy. Read the whole darn thing and stop with the edited snipets of some right wing blog.

BullS**. A so-called report published under the OBama administration trying to distance themselves from his key involvement in the housing mess from day one.

That qualifies as nothing more the DNC published propaganda...

Throw in a dinosaur and it qualifies as science fiction... take out the dinosaur, its still fiction.

Both government failed regulation and deregulation contributed to the crisis. In testimony before Congress both the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) and Alan Greenspan conceded failure in allowing the self-regulation of investment banks.[116][117]

Increasing home ownership has been the goal of several presidents including Roosevelt, Reagan, Clinton and George W. Bush.[118] In 1982, Congress passed the Alternative Mortgage Transactions Parity Act (AMTPA), which allowed non-federally chartered housing creditors to write adjustable-rate mortgages. Among the new mortgage loan types created and gaining in popularity in the early 1980s were adjustable-rate, option adjustable-rate, balloon-payment and interest-only mortgages. These new loan types are credited with replacing the long standing practice of banks making conventional fixed-rate, amortizing mortgages. Among the criticisms of banking industry deregulation that contributed to the savings and loan crisis was that Congress failed to enact regulations that would have prevented exploitations by these loan types. Subsequent widespread abuses of predatory lending occurred with the use of adjustable-rate mortgages.[41][119] Approximately 90% of subprime mortgages issued in 2006 were adjustable-rate mortgages.[2]

I know you didn't read the whole thing, so I just have to keep giving the facts.

You insist on Ignoring the facts...

THey have a Court Docket with Obamas name on it sueing for the right of people with poor credit to get loans they aren't qualified to get... and it went downhill from there.

Liberal Bloggers can't change that reality...

And the fact the Barney Frank and Chris Dodd are in this up to their ears... Obama was the major recipient of money from the major crooks, and everything about this has major Democrat involvement.

The democrats are always trying to pretend they are something they never were...

Like if they had their way no civil rights laws or anything of the sort would have ever passed... They can create as many blogs as they want, history proves otherwise.

Just like Global warming hoax created by Al Gore as a get rich quick scheme. He could count on people loyal to the party doing what they were told.

Tal you keep blaming the banks while providing proof that the government tried manipulating the market to make it accessible to people who were not qualified to receive a mortgage under the old well established formula.

This speaks volumes...

tal you keep blaming the banks while providing proof that the government tried manipulating the market to make it accessible to people who were not qualified to receive a mortgage under the old well established formula.

The government was investing in home ownership not in steering first time buyers, and those looking to leverage their equity into scams the banks profited on. That was the heart of the housing bubble bursting. You only have part of this scam, first time buyers, but the fact is that many of the people have home loans they can afford, but the equity was leveraged out by the deceptive bank practices, and the scandal of collusion between builders, and appraisers.

Yes I blame the banks, for turning a good idea into a financial nightmare. And I am not the only one, because the states attorney's in 50 states agree with me.

Bank of America sued over mortgage abuses | Capitol Hill Blue (http://www.capitolhillblue.com/node/37153)


The lawsuits could complicate Bank of America’s efforts to quickly resolve inquiries into its mortgage foreclosure practices. The probes include a 50-state investigation that is also looking at JPMorgan Chase & Co, Ally Financial and other major mortgage servicers.

Last month Bank of America Chief Executive Brian Moynihan said a quick settlement of the 50-state probe would be the best solution for all involved.

To put all the blame on government, and gullible buyers is to miss a lot of criminal activities that at the time was unknown. You are still ignoring those that could have afforded their mortgage if it was done in a fair way, and not in greed. The banks knew full well what they were doing, and it was illegal, even with government backing and deregulations. They clearly took full advantage of secretly rigging the game Tom, to extract money from the system. CRIMINAL!

I don't deal in spin, or perception, I deal in facts.

If there is criminal activity then where are the indictments ? The AGs are looking for a payout to the states and a bee-line to the Governor's mansions.

If there was criminal activity there should be indictments . I find it curious that the Obots demonize Wall Street and yet Holder hasn't charged any of them .

Perhaps they know if the bank execs go down then Barney Frank and Chris Dodd would go down with them. Perhaps they know that Franklin Raines and Penny Pritzker and Jim Johnson and Jamie Gorelick would all be frog marched if the truth was revealed in a court room.

Heck ,even very liberal Village Voice had the integrity to detail Andrew Cuomo's strong arm tactics while he directed HUD .

The rogues gallery of Dems wearing horizontal pinstripes would destroy the party. Perhaps even the details of how the President got a sweet heart deal for his Chi-town house would be revealed to the public finally .

I don't blame the buyers . They should never ' been offered the mortgages in the 1st place ;and I don't give Bush a free pass for the policy either . He also thought it a good idea for people who can't afford to pay for homes to own them. But at least he and McCain introduced legislation to try to reform the system... who blocked it ? Dodd and Frank.

if there is criminal activity then where are the indictments ? The AGs are looking for a payout to the states and a bee-line to the Governor's mansions.

Ya know Tom, that's exactly what the New York AG is asking.

He doesn't want a settlement, he wants a deeper look.

NY AG Investigating Big Banks Over Packaging Of Mortgage Loans (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/17/ny-ag-banks_n_862898.html)

NY AG right to balk at bank deal (http://www.newsday.com/opinion/ny-ag-right-to-balk-at-bank-deal-1.3138709)

Why isn't the Feds doing it ? Why didn't Cuomo do it when he was AG (no need to answer... I already explained his role in this ) .

These law suits are more an attempt to pad the state coffers than putting bad guys away.
Many times these firms will pay a fine or settlement and go on their merry way... the payment being part of a business expense.
What the AGs aren't doing is looking for criminal behavior . The people allegedly screwed by the financial institutions won't see a dime.

And to further make a mockery of this is that their beef with the banks isn't the activity leading up to the crisis . It's how they have handled foreclosures.
Why ? Because the banks were playing under the rules that the government established before the crisis .
Again... the OWS(aka the Bowel Movement ) people are protesting the wrong place. They should all converge on Washington instead of stinking up lower Manhattan. (and those morons who decided to go after a public museum like the Air &Space Museum have no idea what their beef is about ) .

To put all the blame on government, and gullible buyers is to miss a lot of criminal activities that at the time was unknown. You are still ignoring those that could have afforded their mortgage if it was done in a fair way, and not in greed. The banks knew full well what they were doing, and it was illegal, even with government backing and deregulations. They clearly took full advantage of secretly rigging the game Tom, to extract money from the system. CRIMINAL!

I don't deal in spin, or perception, I deal in facts.


Maybe the banks were following a cue from Barney Frank. He defended it to the end. Even getting his lover a position in Fannie May and forcing them to do business so his lover could make money. Even as far back as 2003.

Free Frank Warner: Barney Frank opposed regulating Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac in 2003, but no one reminds him (http://frankwarner.typepad.com/free_frank_warner/2008/09/barney-frank-op.html)

Lawmaker Accused of Fannie Mae Conflict of Interest - Politics | Republican Party | Democratic Party | Political Spectrum - FOXNews.com (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,432501,00.html)

Michelle Malkin Barney Frank's Friends with Benefits; Update: New Fannie/Freddie lavish comp figures (http://michellemalkin.com/2011/05/27/barney-franks-friends-with-benefits/)

Again ... the OWS(aka the Bowel Movement ) people are protesting the wrong place. They should all converge on Washington instead of stinking up lower Manhattan. (and those morons who decided to go after a public museum like the Air &Space Museum have no idea what their beef is about ) .

The Bowel Movement, perfect.

Raj Rajaratnam got 11 years Think that will sate the pitch fork crowd ?