The European Union's experiment in becoming a of a "united, integrated Europe" continues to meet reality.


Europe moves to end passport-free travel in migrant row (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/12/europe-to-end-passport-free-travel)

European nations moved to reverse decades of unfettered travel across the continent when a majority of EU governments agreed the need to reinstate national passport controls amid fears of a flood of immigrants fleeing the upheaval in north Africa.

In a serious blow to one of the cornerstones of a united, integrated Europe, EU interior ministers embarked on a radical revision of the passport-free travel regime known as the Schengen system to allow the 26 participating governments to restore border controls.

They also agreed to combat immigration by pressing for "readmission accords" with countries in the Middle East and north Africa to send refugees back to where they came from.

The policy shift was pushed by France and Italy, who have been feuding and panicking in recent weeks over a small influx of refugees from Tunisia. But 15 of the 22 EU states which had signed up to Schengen supported the move, with only four resisting, according to officials and diplomats present.

Meanwhile back in the States, will we continue forging down the same failed pathways as our European counterparts?

Yeah.. and the Italians are FURIOUS they are expected to take all these illegals under EU mandates but the bordering countries refuse to take their share.

Between the damn Gypsies, the Romanians, the North Africans... Albanians and now ( the Libyans and the Tunisians) yeah but they are a different bunch of north africans.

Meanwhile back in the States, will we continue forging down the same failed pathways as our European counterparts?Hello Steve:

Sooo, you want Texas to issue it's own passport??

excon

PS> By the way. North Africa isn't very close, and there's an ocean separating us.

PPS> You're not attempting to equate our southern border, with the open borders of Europe, are you? Really? Wow, Dude. That's a stretch, even for a winger.

Not that much of a stretch... when you consider the people that WANT to let them in aren't the ones from states that have to deal with all the consequences of the vast numbers them actually coming in.

In Europe its France Germany Switzerland and Holland that are demanding to let them in... then block their border from them actually getting to their own countries ( or I.E. States). And Italy is who gets stuck with dealing with them and the huge costs associated with NO help from the other EU countries. Like Arizona and Texas is here.

Something you don't hear about on the news.

Yeah they ARE Sovereign countries... but they are operating more like States in some ways. Not all that much unlike we were in the early colonial period.

Why would I want Texas to issue its own passport, and I know where North Africa is.

A lot of people advocate the "free flow of people" for this country and I think you know that. And not just Mexicans and Canadians, or the 19 Central and South American countries.

Not that much of a stretch....Hello again, smoothy:

No?? Dude!

In Europe, when you're driving between countries, they have a sign saying "Welcome to Belgium".

Here, when arriving in Arizona you have to STOP, get searched and show your papers. If you decide to sneak in, first off, you can't bring your car or your flat screen TV. Then you've got to navigate a fence, cops with guns, drones and dogs, all backed up by militias and sheriff departments filled with angry white guys like yourself. Oh, did I mention the desert you have to walk across?

To ME, they're not the same, but I don't hate immigrants.

excon

Hello again, smoothy:

No??? Dude!!

In Europe, when you're driving between countries, they have a sign saying "Welcome to Belgium".

Here, when arriving in Arizona you have to STOP, get searched and show your papers. If you decide to sneak in, first off, you can't bring your car. Then you've got to navigate a fence, cops with guns, drones and dogs, all backed up by militias and sheriff departments filled with angry white guys like yourself. Oh, did I mention the desert you have to walk across?

To ME, they're not the same, but I don't hate immigrants.

excon


You know this exactly how? So you can't drive from Nevada into Arizona any more? Or New Mexico? They blocked all the roads?


You ARE aware you can't enter the EU anywhere from outside the EU without providing documentation.


And last time I checked... Mexico isn't part of the USA... or even one of our territories.

A lot of people advocate the "free flow of people" for this country and I think you know that.Hello again, Steve:

I'm not here to discuss fringe weirdos. I don't know ANY responsible person who advocates what you're suggesting. In fact, I don't even know any irresponsible people who advocate it.

Did you get an email from WND?

excon

You know this exactly how? So you can't drive from Nevada into Arizona any more? Or New Mexico? They blocked all the roads? Hello again, smoothy:

I assumed you knew that I was speaking about arriving in Arizona from Mexico. My bad, although I think you understood what I was saying... Are you going off on a tangent again??

excon

Hello again, smoothy:

I assumed you knew that I was speaking about arriving in Arizona from Mexico. My bad, although I think you understood what I was saying... Are you going off on a tangent again???

exconWhy SHOULD Mexicans and anyone from south of here NOT be stopped and checked at the border? YOU were upset that people were getting stopped from driving into Arizona and having to produce documents. So its YOU that implied that.

Every other country does that or worse.


Why should Mexico have a free ride when they are draconian on how they deal with their southern border. As bad as Mexico is... its still not the butthole of a place some countries further south are.

Why SHOULD Mexicans and anyone from south of here NOT be stopped and checked at the border? YOU were upset that people were getting stopped from driving into Arizona and having to produce documents.Hello again, smoothy:

I don't know how you get sooooo far out there... But, let me see if I can right this trainwreck...

You said the borders in Europe and our Southern border are similar. I didn't think they were. As proof, I cited the barriers of entry WE have versus the open highways THEY have. I didn't complain about our barriers nor do they upset me. I have no idea what the rest of your post is arguing nor who you're arguing with.

Are we back??

excon

I'm not here to discuss fringe weirdos. I don't know ANY responsible person who advocates what you're suggesting. In fact, I don't even know any irresponsible people who advocate it.

Let Them In: The Case for Open Borders (http://www.amazon.com/Let-Them-Case-Open-Borders/dp/1592403492)


Did you get an email from WND?

I don't read WND so why would they email me?

I'm not here to discuss fringe weirdos. I don't know ANY responsible person who advocates what you're suggesting. Hello again, Steve:

What HE said.

excon

Hello again, smoothy:

I dunno how you get sooooo far out there... But, lemme see if I can right this trainwreck...

You said the borders in Europe and our Southern border are similar. I didn't think they were. As proof, I cited the barriers of entry WE have versus the open highways THEY have. I didn't complain about our barriers nor do they upset me. I have no idea what the rest of your post is arguing nor who you're arguing with.

Are we back???

excon

I say you are wrong... YOU have never traveled throughout Europe.

I have. I lived there. YOU don't enter from outside the EU without papers be it via the roads the Ports, or the Airports. They stop Trains at the borders and check everyone as well.

If you get stopped by the police you HAVE to produce documents... and they can and do stop you when they feel like it. If you don't have papers... you get hauled in.

If you walk into the Emergency room... you have to produce papers.


I don't know where you got this idea you have about about that... but its entirely wrong. I spend time there every year, and I NEVER spend it in a hotel. I never rent a car... I drive my own registered vehicles, or ride with someone else in theirs.

I first traveled throughout Europe in 1985 (that was a Bus tour)... I later lived there and worked there for over 5 years, and I spend a sizable amount of time there every year. I have actually driven through Austria, France. Monaco, Switzerland, Germany AND Italy, and a few of the smaller principalities inside Italy in my own vehicles too. I've crossed more than a few borders over that time... I've also entered the EU from England, France, Germany AND Italy as well.

Always checked for papers upon entry.

Open borders of the EU does not equal free-for-all. It is no different than traveling inside the USA, only with far fewer rights. You still get checked at any frontier, or point of entry. Just like here.

And get this, while our federal government is suing Arizona for wanting to protect its border, they're trying for the first time in our history that I know of to tell an American company it can't migrate to South Carolina (http://www.thenewstribune.com/2011/04/20/1634171/ruling-boeings-south-carolina.html).

I say you are wrong... YOU have never traveled throughout Europe.

I have. I lived there. YOU don't enter from outside the EU without papers be it via the roads the Ports, or the Airports. They stop Trains at the borders and check everyone as well.Hello again, smoothy:

Dude. You are really, really out there somewhere.. I don't know WHY you can't follow along...

If I was wrong, my SOURCE was the article Steve posted,
European nations moved to reverse decades of unfettered travel across the continent Take it up with him.

Excon

Hello again, smoothy:

Dude. You are really, really out there somewhere.. I don't know WHY you can't follow along...

If I was wrong, my SOURCE was the article Steve posted, Take it up with him.

excon
Tell you what... lets see you fly over there and refuse to produce an ID at any of the EU frontiers.

Lets see you try and get in. I dare you.

You may believe they don't exist... but reality and fantasy aren't the same thing.

Customs and border control are alive and well for anyone entering from outside the EU.

I do it every year... in fact I've done it over 25 times now in each direction from the USA alone.. you have done it exactly HOW many times so far?

You stand exactly as much of a chance for getting into Europe without a passport (and in many cases a VISA as well) as anyone coming here does. WE don't need a VISA... but you aren't doing it without a Passport. And you WILL have to present it to someone before you are allowed to set foot beyond the frontier customs control point, be it Airport... road or railway.

In fact I'll have to present MINE to get in again this year or I won't get out of the airport, OR on any connecting flight inside the EU.


Whoever you got that crap from is a total IDIOT that hasn't left his home town, much less the country. Because its clear they have NEVER traveled into or out of the EU.


You aren't even allowed to BOARD a flight to the EU without papers... and when you get there you aren't getting in without them... you WILL get turned around and sent right back. That's how it is in reality...

You aren't even allowed to BOARD a flight to the EU without papers....and when you get there you aren't getting in without them....you WILL get turned around and sent right back. Thats how it is in reality....Same with an american flying within his own country, papers or go home.

Same with an american flying within his own country, papers or go home.
Or getting into Canada.

Actually you CAN fly within the USA without a passport, using a drivers license. But you can't fly outside the USA without a passport... and being pre-screened for any no-fly lists to that country as well. You can't even go to Canada (or come back) any longer with just a drivers license like you once could.

excon is misunderstanding what he read... he just hasn't seen how and what and why yet.

Hello again, smoothy:

I'm going to try one last time, although I have my doubts whether it will work.

The topic in the article is travel WITHIN the EU. Nobody said that GETTING in to the EU, is the same as travel between the nation states. YOU are the only one arguing about that. I don't know who with.

But, I've spent a page and a half trying to get you back on track INSTEAD of arguing what the POST is about... That gets awfully tiring. I'm out of here.

excon

To ex's point:
Travelling in Europe - Documents you will need (http://europa.eu/travel/doc/index_en.htm)

Hello again, smoothy:

I'm gonna try one last time, although I have my doubts whether it will work.

The topic in the article is travel WITHIN the EU. Nobody said that GETTING in to the EU, is the same as travel between the nation states. YOU are the only one arguing about that. I dunno who with.

But, I've spent a page and a half trying to get you back on track INSTEAD of arguing what the POST is about... That gets awfully tiring. I'm outta here.

excon


YOU was arguing getting into the EU... and that you didn't need a passport to get INTO the EU. That's what "at the Frontier" means, that's what at a "point of entry" means, That's what at the "EU border" means... at every one of those points they very much do check everyone's papers.

You was arguing those points DIDN'T check papers. Just say you misread it and admit it. And why MY comparison to the USA was pretty close.

You still get random stops for papers inside the EU... and you better have them on you. They don't NEED a probable cause to stop you just to check your papers.

To ex's point:
Travelling in Europe - Documents you will need (http://europa.eu/travel/doc/index_en.htm)
BUT, Ex was argueing TO Europe. That is not inside Europe. Two totally different things.

And the fact FRANCE was violating that be blocking Tunisians and Libyans at the Border after Italy was forced to take them. When Italy doesn't want them... and can't absorb them

Actually you're right. At post #11 he seems to veer off a bit.

Actually you're right. At post #11 he seems to veer off a bit.

That's why I said he was misunderstanding something. I know what the point was he was missing... but he was arguing it from the wrong perspective like there was actual open borders... which in reality they don't have. And why its similar to the USA in that aspect. OR Canada. You still don't get there from here without papers, any more than you get into here, or into Canada without them.

With the EU framework it's a lot closer to a Federation or Nation than a group of countries with open borders with each other. The EU does call some shots... they do share a common currency (most of them anyway). They did give up a measure of sovereignty with the EU formation.

The EU was and is an artificial construct. It worked to a minor degree as a common currency . But what is the basis for a common nation ? Language ? Culture ? Each nation has it's own unique identity and language ;and the people have rejected the ties that bound them ;a shared European heritage ,and religion. They can sing 'Ode to Joy'from Beethoven's 9th until the cows come home and those ancient mistrusts and rivalries will all eventually boil to the surface.