... and enjoy being useful idiots for dictators?

Fresh off his visit to Cuba, Jimmy Carter felt the need to visit North Korea (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/23/AR2010112300880.html?wprss=rss_world) and while there, give Kim Jong-Il a plug and call South Korea and the U.S. human rights abusers for not sending food to North Korea.

R3pA9wMTcnQ

Perhaps on his way home he can stop by and give his pal Bashar kudos for his restraint in the Syrian unrest?

Why do American leftists hate America.
I think we can all stop reading right there.

Fortunately, most of us don't care what you think.

JC has been on the payroll of Kim Jong mentally IL for years.
The world and the people of North Korea would've been rid of that little bass-turd years ago except for Carter's personal interventions.There would not be a starvation issue there if he wasn't running the nation like it was Dachau .
Yet that moron Carter thinks it's us that are human rights violators ?
Jimmy... go away!! The NORKS have a nuke... mission accomplished .

Fortunately, most of us don't care what you think.Well maybe you and your little buddy tom, not sure about the rest of the world, I'm quite certain you don't speak for them.

But continue on your "independant" all-things-liberals-are-evil rant. It's a daily occurrence.

I wonder if there is any racism in Carter's panning of Obama policy ?

But continue on your "independant" all-things-liberals-are-evil rant. It's a daily occurence.

So if I believe "all-things-liberals-are-evil" why did I just tell ex I'm OK with him "gettin' happy?" Thanks for quickly dispelling the idea that you're playing the part of adult here.

Now, back to the OP.

So if I believe "all-things-liberals-are-evil" why did I just tell ex I'm ok with him "gettin' happy?" What does "gettin' happy" mean??

I think we can all stop reading right there.


I agree with Need Karma. The statement by Speechless indicates that all American leftists hate America and one questionable example is given. This is a massive generalization. I am sure I can find one left leaning person that doesn't hate America.

Tut

I agree with NK. The statement by Speechless indicates that all American leftists hate America and one questionable example is given. This is a massive generalization. I am sure i can find one left leaning person that doesn't hate America.

Tut

Tut I thnk you need to be a little careful with abbreviations when North Korea is being discussed otherwise we might think you are a Kim fellow traveller. Let's develop your argument for a moment; there must be one left leaning person who doesn't hate america and I'm sure I can find him.

Let's look immediately to the american leader, a left wing politician and surely one who would love america
Why Barack Obama Hates America - HUMAN EVENTS (http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=39178)

Nope we can't get support there and as that fifty percent of americans who are left leaning think this guy is great we won't get support there either so you might need to look outside the US

I agree with NK. The statement by Speechless indicates that all American leftists hate America and one questionable example is given. This is a massive generalization. I am sure i can find one left leaning person that doesn't hate America.

Tut



Thanks Clete, My reference to NK was Need Karma

Why do American leftists hate America... Hello Steve:

I don't know.. Same reason right wingers do.

excon

Let's look immediately to the american leader, a left wing politician and surely one who would love america
Why Barack Obama Hates America - HUMAN EVENTS (http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=39178)

Nope we can't get support there and as that fifty percent of americans who are left leaning think this guy is great we won't get support there either so you might need to look outside the US


Hi Clete,

Interesting link. Again. I would argue that there is a tendency for too much generalization on the part of the author.

My guess is that Obama dislikes certain aspects of American culture. This doesn't mean he hates it per se.

If the author of the article/book thinks that he can predict the policies Obama is going to implement in the future based on his generalization then I think his predictions are going to fall well short.

In relation to the original posting I would say that depending on the degree of 'leftness' most left leaning people in your country would fall into the category of only disliking certain aspects of America.

Tut

In relation to the original posting I would say that depending on the degree of 'leftness' most left leaning people in your country would fall into the category of only disliking certain aspects of America.Hello T:

I'm a leftist... I LOVE my country... I spilled my BLOOD for my country. Ask the rightists here when THEY defended their country, instead of just running their mouths...

excon

I agree with Need Karma. The statement by Speechless indicates that all American leftists hate America and one questionable example is given. This is a massive generalization. I am sure I can find one left leaning person that doesn't hate America

Next time someone says something about right-wingers I expect the same defense on their behalf. If I would have meant ALL leftists I would have said ALL leftists. As it's stated, the people that hate America I'm referring to are American leftists like Jimmy Carter. So, why do they hate their country?

Edit: here's your chance:


Hello Steve:

I don't know.. Same reason right wingers do.

Excon

That's a massive generalization wouldn't you say?

That's a massive generalization wouldn't you say?Hello again, Steve:

I would, but no more so than, "Why do American leftists hate America..."

excon

Next time someone says something about right-wingers I expect the same defense on their behalf. If I would have meant ALL leftists I would have said ALL leftists. As it's stated, the people that hate America I'm referring to are American leftists like Jimmy Carter. So, why do they hate their country?

Edit: here's your chance:



That's a massive generalization wouldn't you say?

Hi Speech,

Sounds like a good defense for right wingers as well.

The way you set out your post it wasn't clear that you meant some and not all. Unless it is clear from the context the person reading the post is entitle to think the author means 'all'. That's just the way it works.
And yes, it applies to people who make statements such as, "Why do right wingers.... ?"

But seeing as you have stated you mean 'some' I e leftists like Jimmy Carter then that's fine with me. The debate can proceed on that basis.

Tut

So we seem to have established that some, well maybe most, americans hate america. Is that enough of a generalisation for you and Tut, you seem to have forgotten where you live, lots of people here don't like america or is that americans, difficult to distinguish the difference, and I have been to other places and america is definitely on the nose there.

So what is this that causes the problem for this group of people who ,as individuals, aren't that different to the rest of us. I would say it is the character of their leadership

Clete, I don't care about why any of you hate Americans or America, I know you'll all come begging for our help eventually anyway. This is about why so many American leftists hate their own country, the country that made it so easy for them to have such a good life.

OK speech why do you think americans of any persuasion hate america

They went to college.

So what you are saying is that americans are taught to hate their own country by their very expensive tertiary education system. Seems you are not getting much bang for your buck there. Shoot a few academics and that will change

They went to college.Hello again, Steve:

Ergo - education is the enemy... It makes you elite, and you don't want to be one of the dreaded elite.

excon

Well ex I was once asked whether I prefer being part of the elete

The real question is ;why does Jimmy Carter ;a former POTUS , work to undermine US policies abroad ?

Ergo - education is the enemy... It makes you elite, and you don't want to be one of the dreaded elite.Keep 'em dumb and they'll vote republican.

The real question is ;why does Jimmy Carter ;a former POTUS , work to undermine US policies abroad ?

Do you have to ask? Being a President of the US doesn't stop you from being a ****head, George W Bush demonstrated that

Hello again, Steve:

Ergo - education is the enemy... It makes you elite, and you don't want to be one of the dreaded elite.

Next you'll be telling us how liberals brains are bigger. I realize most libs have swollen heads but it isn't because of that.

I LOVE education, where can you get one minus the leftist indoctrination?

I LOVE education, where can you get one minus the leftist indoctrination?


Hillsdale

Hillsdale College - Admissions (http://www.hillsdale.edu/admissions/default.asp)

Subscription to their Imprimis news letter is a must for all thinking conservatives .
Hillsdale College - Imprimis (http://www.hillsdale.edu/news/imprimis.asp)

Hillsdale

Hillsdale College - Admissions (http://www.hillsdale.edu/admissions/default.asp)Seems like a good school - not much different than any other private school.

It is a fine college. It is one of the few that is ranked high by Conservatives that doesn't have claim to base it's curriculum on a Christian based education.
http://www.yaf.org/topconservativecolleges.aspx
There curriculum is 'classic liberalism 'which is much different than contemporary liberal indoctrination found in most US universities.

Hello again, Steve:

I don't know.. I'm watching Fox News and they're showing the reaction to the killing of Bin Laden... It's mostly college kids chanting USA - USA - USA.

Doesn't look like they hate their country too much...

excon

Jimmy Carter is clearly and very publicly suffering the ravages of advanced Dementia.

He was once merely the worst presidtent we ever had... before the current one...

But he did a lot of good things with Habitat for humanity... but whatever mental defect he is suffering from has basically erodded those good works until every time he speaks up is a "Dear god shut him up!" moment.

It is a fine college. It is one of the few that is ranked high by Conservatives that doesn't have claim to base it's curriculum on a Christian based education.
Young America's Foundation - Top Conservative College List (http://www.yaf.org/topconservativecolleges.aspx)
There curriculum is 'classic liberalism 'which is much different than contemporary liberal indoctrination found in most US universities.

Hi Tom,

I found your link very interesting, especially the following quote:

Furthermore, they avoid trends in academe by continuing to study Western Civilization instead of straying towards Marxism, feminism, sexuality, postmodernism, and other distractions that do not give our country, our culture, and its founding principles.

I don't know how things work over there but from my point of view I have never been involved in a course, say Marxism, that doesn't explore both the strengths and weaknesses of Marx. I don't know of any course which presupposes that Marx is infallible. In fact he comes in for criticism in just about every serious journal I have read about him.

Let's take Marxism as an example again. Just because a university offers a course in Marxism doesn't mean there is a tendency or "straying" towards the Marxist position. In fact, I think the opposite is mostly the case.

I don't want to go into detail about theories of knowledge and how knowledge progresses except to say that the important element is someone putting forward a theory and others mounting a criticism of
Said theory.

It seems to me that the above quote is an attempt to stop any theory comparisons. I think this is tantamount to saying that knowledge has progressed as far as it needs to.


Tut

I suppose you never attended the modern American University . It is not curriculum as much as indoctrination into progressive cultural 'distractions'. It took me most of a decade to debrief.

What are those progressive cultural distractions Tom? Are you suggesting footbrawl and basketball are subversive?

Progressive Radio Host Mike Malloy suggested yesterday that the Navy Seals should "drop in" on George Bush.

Hello again, tom:

So, that proves the left hates America?? Dude! Rush Limprod has a bigger audience and he said Obama is a liar... Therefore, using your logic, the right hates America MORE than the left.

excon

The right isn't calling for the assassination of a former president, big difference. I dropped by Huffpo yesterday and one of the first comments I saw said "Bush is next."

So let's weight this out - liar / kill Bush

No, Rush was pretty tame in comparison.

So let's weight this out - liar / kill BushHello again, Steve:

You have a habit of finding lone jerkoffs, and saying they represent the left... If you want to discuss what the LEFT believes, I'll have that discussion with you... But, to discuss the actions or beliefs of single weirdo's isn't something I choose to engage in, because it means nothing...

The FACT of the matter is, the LEFT doesn't want to kill Bush, and the LEFT loves American just like the right does... Are you going to bring up another crazy lefty to prove your point?? Don't you think I can come up with a nutty rightwinger to counter it?? Do you think that is productive?

excon

So far that's 2 examples... today. There are MANY more going back years, not to mention again the movie fantasizing about his assassination. This is not new and it's not just a lone wacko or two.

Now, I know most liberals love their country, but the America haters come from the left, too and it's no small contingent.

I can't forget this either, Cafepress at one time offered this t-shirt for sale:

http://www.wnd.com/images2/killbushshirt2.jpg

Christian Conservatives Praying for God to Kill Obama (http://gawker.com/#!5407568/christian-conservatives-praying-for-god-to-kill-obama)

Hello again, Steve:

If you want to play the hate card, I got one... In my view, those people who support TORTURE (or enhanced interrogation if calling it that makes you happy) HATE America!

I mean really, really HATE the country I love...

Put that in your hate pipe and smoke it.

excon

That must include the administration, too.

There is the last 3 years of Obama blaming Bush for everything... including the stuff Obama himself did AFTER Bush was no longer in office.

That must include the administration, too.That's right - everyone in America hates America - except for you of course.

I'm all for more torture of terrorists. In fact I don't think you can torture foreign terrorists too much.

Just not Americans who aren't terrorists.

There is nothing in the Constitution that says"Thou shall not torture or do things to terrorists they find unpleasant".


Because Terrorists aren't normal people.

That must include the administration, too.Hello again, Steve:

Did I STUTTER?? Maybe I didn't make myself clear, although I usually don't have that problem... Those who torture in my name, HATE my country!

If you want to use the PC term, enhanced interrogation, I'll go along, but (wink wink) we ALL KNOW what we're talking about here. So, let me say it again, those who support water boarding by ANY name, HATE the country that I love. Do you want me to say it again?

If you're amongst that group, tell me WHY you hate my country..

excon

Did I STUTTER??

Nope, I gotcha.


If you're amongst that group, tell me WHY you hate my country..


Like Obama realized when he took office, I know the realities of this world necessitate certain things that can get kind of ugly. I wish it weren't so but it is.


"We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." - Winston Churchill

[Rudyard Kipling's] "grasp of function, of who protects whom, is very sound. He sees clearly that men can only be highly civilized while other men, inevitably less civilized, are there to guard and feed them." -George Orwell

"I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it." - Aaron Sorkin (A Few Good Men)

Hello again, Steve:

Here's your problem. You conflate vigorously protecting the country with the need to torture. I DON'T. I vigorously defended the country, and I did it LEGALLY.

Those who resorted to ILLEGAL acts using the defense of the country as their excuse, DEFAMED my beloved Constitution. They're despicable. They HATE the Constitution and the country it serves.

You quote the colonel from "A Few Good Men", but you left off the ending.. The colonel was sent to PRISON for violating the law, no matter how pretty his rhetoric was. The same thing should happen to the torturers.

excon

I knew what happened to the colonel, it was still a good quote. He was sent to prison for ordering the hazing of one of his own men that resulted in his death if I recall. As it should be.

You and I have different definitions of torture. I don't consider sleep deprivation torture. Waterboarding, maybe. All I know is if it were me that had the opportunity to get information from a known scumbag that would save say, my wife or kids, I'd do just about anything it took to get that information. Wouldn't you?

All I know is if it were me that had the opportunity to get information from a known scumbag that would save say, my wife or kids, I'd do just about anything it took to get that information. Wouldn't you?Hello again, Steve:

If the question were asked with equivalent values, the answer would be no, as I assume yours would be...

Here's the problem with the ticking time bomb scenario.. It makes great politics, but lousy logic. It only works if you KNOW the guy you are about to torture KNOWS what you THINK he knows. But, of course, in the real world, you CAN'T know what he knows. It's simply not possible. You can THINK it, but you can't KNOW it. Even if Muhammod and 20 of his friends TOLD you he knows, you can only THINK he knows...

So, the answer to your question is yes, if the guy in front of me KNOWS stuff that would save my wife and kids, I'd do what I needed to do, too... But, since I really CAN'T know what he knows, I wouldn't pull his fingernails out..

excon

Wait, we were pulling fingernails out? I thought we were just pouring water on 'em, keeping them awake and blasting the Black-Eyed Peas at 'em.

The fact is that even when they tried the withhold information and did the so called 'tell them what they want to hear' there were obviously contradictions in their responses that the intel folks pieced together. Did they spill the beans ? Maybe and maybe not .But the guy in the next cell knew what was happening and his responses were tailored appropriately .

Look ;even Leon Paneta admitted that the interrogation methods worked. Would we have gotten the key intel from other methods ? Possibly.

The fact is that our intel on AQ was seriously wanting in 2002 and a crash course had to be taken . No one believed time was on our side.

Immediately after 9-11 there were anthrax attacks and no one knew what AQ capabilites were.

It's easy to Monday morning quarterback a decade later. But at the time the ticking time bomb seemed very real .

Look ;even Leon Paneta admitted that the interrogation methods worked. Hello tom:

Nobody here says it doesn't work. But, if safety is our only issue, I wonder why we don't use it on our domestic criminals.. It'll make us safer, won't it? Why don't we search everybody's houses? That'll make us safer too, won't it? Why don't we build concentration camps and put people there who pose a threat, and knock 'em off if they cause trouble? Why don't we do these things if safety if the only consideration?

I'll tell you why. Because our humanity IS a consideration... And, so's the Constitution.

excon

You still refuse to make the distinction between Americans who have Constitutional protections and enemy combatants in war. Under no provisions I'm aware of are they entitled to the same safeguards as US citizens.

You can call it a concentration camp all you want. But Gitmo by anyone's standard is one of the most humane prison on the planet. My guess is that it beats most US prisons in that regard.

You can call it a concentration camp all you want. But Gitmo by anyone's standard is one of the most humane prison on the planet. My guess is that it beats most US prisons in that regard.

No pictures I have seen of gitmo supports your claim that it is the one of the most humane on the planet. To me it looks like a place you would pen dogs and even then it wouldn't be considered humane. Should it be better than other US prisons then a revue of how you treat your own is long overdue
http://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://thinkprogress.org/wonkroom/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/gitmo.gif&imgrefurl=http://thinkprogress.org/2008/06/21/gitmo-report-scalia/&h=251&w=210&sz=44&tbnid=jTaZGk7tM09ojM:&tbnh=200&tbnw=168&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dgitmo%2Bpictures%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3 Du&zoom=1&q=gitmo+pictures&usg=__vRnpRp3w-CCWbhLthis4_P22jEA=&sa=X&ei=K1PDTZ_gIsforAfG_9HGBA&ved=0CCcQ9QEwAA

But Gitmo by anyone's standard is one of the most humane prison on the planet. My guess is that it beats most US prisons in that regard.Hello again, tom:

Keeping someone forever, never giving them a trial or a hope of getting out, isn't humane no matter how good the food is.

excon

you still refuse to make the distinction between Americans who have Constitutional protections and enemy combatants in war. Under no provisions I'm aware of are they entitled to the same safeguards as US citizens.Hello again, tom:

The Constitutional distinction is a declaration of war. You can't have the benefits of a war without declaring it..

Therefore, there is no such distinction in the law as "enemy combatants. Without a declaration of war, there are only criminals. That would endow them with Constitutional rights. These criminals committed their crime in NY City. Seems to me, they should be tried in NY City.

Bush had a chance to follow the Constitution. He could have asked for a declaration of war. He would have gotten it. He chose not to. There's repercussions for doing that.

excon

Hello again, tom:

The Constitutional distinction is a declaration of war. You can't have the benefits of a war without declaring it..

Therefore, there is no such distinction in the law as "enemy combatants. Without a declaration of war, there are only criminals. That would endow them with Constitutional rights. These criminals committed their crime in NY City. Seems to me, they should be tried in NY City.

Bush had a chance to follow the Constitution. He could have asked for a declaration of war. He would have gotten it. He chose not to. There's repercussions for doing that.

excon



Um... Obamas been in office for almost 2 and a half years and started ANOTHER war in Libya...

There STILL isn't a declaration of war... and That's not Bushes fault. In fact... Dems controlled everything until this past election. Time to stop blaming Bush and start blaming the Democrats. THEY had plenty of time to declare a war IF it was really needed.

W isn't running a shadow government from Crawford after all.

There STILL isn't a declaration of war....and THATS not Bushes fault. In fact....Dems controlled everything until this past election. Time to stop blaming Bush and start blaming the Democrats.Hello again, smoothy:

You've been wandering around the legal boards for a while, so you SHOULD have a sense of the law... Bush did some things that have LEGAL ramifications that outlast his presidency. The things he did, DIDN'T go away when he left for Crawford. Some of those things we're dealing with NOW.

Now, you can IGNORE those things by choosing to only look back 2.5 years to find out what the problem is... But, you'd be fooling yourself.

excon

SO... the typical liberal argument... YOU have to follow a different set of rules and laws than WE do?


Obama is in charge... IF any of them were illegal there was unfettered chances to end them all or set things right when the dems controlled everything.


And incidentally... BUSH as much as the left can't stand the fact of... isn't Subject to any laws THEY aren't.

The Dems AREN'T exempt so they are every bit as guilty of everything you are blaming BUSH for. Because they have been, and they are currently doing exactly the same thing... and MORE. Bush never went into Libya and Obama is still in Afghanistan AND Iraq, AND he violated Pakistan's sovereignty... (not that I disagree at all there) but the Dems would have been screaming bloody murder if BUSH did it.

Hello again, tom:

The Constitutional distinction is a declaration of war. You can't have the benefits of a war without declaring it..

Therefore, there is no such distinction in the law as "enemy combatants. Without a declaration of war, there are only criminals. That would endow them with Constitutional rights. These criminals committed their crime in NY City. Seems to me, they should be tried in NY City.

Bush had a chance to follow the Constitution. He could have asked for a declaration of war. He would have gotten it. He chose not to. There's repercussions for doing that.

excon


There we fundamentally disagree. I think in both the war against jihadistan and Iraq ,the Constitutional requirements were met with the resolutions passed supporting the wars.

Authorization for Use of Military Force- Sept. 18, 2001 (http://news.findlaw.com/wp/docs/terrorism/sjres23.es.html)

Iraqi War Resolution - Text of Iraq Resolution and Roll Call Vote Authorizing War In Iraq (http://uspolitics.about.com/od/wariniraq/a/jt_resolution.htm)



To Smoothy's point;the President never addressed Congress ,nor asked for a resolution.

I wonder if Jimmy C is mourning the loss of a mass murdered he can no longer visit ?

Hello again, Steve:

Let me reiterate.. Those who want to bring back torture, and there's a LOT of right wingers who want to do so, HATE America.

Let me say it once more with feeling, those who torture in my name HATE AMERICA. Why do right wingers HATE America?? Why?

excon

"It is permitted in time of grave danger to walk with the devil until you have crossed the bridge" (Old Bulgarian proverb quoted by FDR at Yalta )

We LOVE America more than we love the terrorists that would be tortured. THAT is the difference between the right and the left.

The left believes the rights of terrorists are more important than the rights of Americans who would be harmed by them.

We LOVE America more than we love the terrorists that would be tortured. Hello again, smoothy:

Yeah... I understand.. In other words, you're willing to DESTROY America in order to SAVE it. I heard that argument in Vietnam.

excon

The left is striving to do that (destroy America ) its part and parcel to Obamas agenda.. . by sucking up to the terrorists and screwing Americans.

We didn't give the Germans and the Japanese those rights... We didn't give the British or the French those rights either... we didn't give the Mexicans (in the past anyway) or the Indians those rights... and we've done pretty damn good so far.

Giving terrorists MORE rights than the average American has isn't going to do a single American any good.

Hello again, smoothy:

If you don't understand what the USA is about, then you can't possibly preserve it. The reason Obama should have prosecuted Bush, Cheney, Yoo and ALL the torturers, is so that it NEVER raises its ugly head again... But, since he didn't do that, people like you will think torture is cool and certainly NOT against the law.

If what works is more important than who we are, why don't you opt for a full on police state? That works. Why don't we just shoot protesters?? That works. Why don't we just throw people in jail and NOT give them a trial? That works..

I guess I shouldn't be giving you ideas.. You say you love America more than the terrorists... But, if you respond to the terrorists by changing the fabric of America, then your hated terrorists WON. I know you don't understand that... But, when you HELP the terrorists WIN, you HATE America... Why do you hate my country so?

excon

Obama and Holder won't even prosecute cases they've already won, why would he attempt to prosecute Bush and Co. knowing he'll lose?

why would he attempt to prosecute Bush and Co. knowing he'll lose?Hello again, Steve:

I don't speak for these people. If I did, I would have prosecuted the torturers and I wouldn't have lost. Would have been a slam dunk. Torture IS illegal, after all. People who PROMOTE torture HATE America.

Why do the righty's HATE America?

excon

Torture IS illegal, after all. People who PROMOTE torture HATE America.

Who's promoting torture?


Why do the righty's HATE America?

Apparently we don't know (http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/05/03/2199462/obama-guilty-of-presidenting-while.html) we hate America, promote torture and are bigots. Thank God we have people like you and Pitts to set us straight.

Why do lefties care so much about the non-existent rights foreign terrorists as supposed to have in their imaginations.

After all WE don't have any presumption of innocence on any highway or back road in the nation.

Yet the left wants to extend rights to foreign terrorists when none exist.

Wow, the US seems like a nice place to live.

I can't imagine living anywhere else.

I can't imagine living anywhere else.
a) all you do is whine all day about how stupid the people are in your country
b) your government spies on you and you can't do anything about it Battle Brews Over FBI's Warrantless GPS Tracking | Threat Level | Wired.com (http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/05/gps)

Why do lefties care so much about the non-existent rights foreign terrorists Hello again, smoothy:

It's not that I care about the terrorists.. It's that I that I LOVE my country. I've spoken about the "fabric" of our country, and how becoming torturers changes it... I suspect you haven't a clue about what that is. Maybe you missed civics that day.

excon

a) all you do is whine all day about how stupid the people are in your country

No that's all YOU do. I take the time to go kick their a$$ in fantasy baseball, too.

Who's promoting torture? Hello again, Steve:

When you want to discuss REAL WORLD stuff, post me. But, I'm not going to get into that denial routine of yours.

In the REAL WORLD, when the Japanese waterboarded our soldiers it was torture... When WE do it, it's not... Thinking that OUR waterboarding is good, when their waterboarding was bad, is psychotic.

So, you can go on pretending that what we did wasn't torture, and I'll keep on telling you how loony your are.

excon

Hello again, Steve:

When you wanna discuss REAL WORLD stuff, post me. But, I'm not gonna get into that denial routine of yours.

In the REAL WORLD, when the Japanese waterboarded our soldiers it was torture... When WE do it, it's not... Thinking that OUR waterboarding is good, when their waterboarding was bad, is psychotic.

So, you can go on pretending that what we did wasn't torture, and I'll keep on telling you how loony your are.

excon

OK real world... Obama dispatched an “assassination” team into a sovereign nation without its consent to wack OBL. How's that for national values ? I have no problem with that or the fact that interrogators got rough to obtain the key info needed to locate him.
Seems like the dividing line is who made the order.

Seems like the dividing line is who made the order.
Obama is more like Bush than you'd care to admit.

How's that for national values ?Hello again, tom:

What's even worse, is Obama sent a drone to attack an AMERICAN citizen who hasn't been convicted of any crime. They don't like him because he speaks English and goes on YouTube.

I haven't cut Obama any slack on that issue - and won't. I don't carry water for anybody.. But, there are PLENTY of apologists here for George W. Bush...

Let me say this again. Any government official who tortures, or kills Americans without due process of law, doesn't really understand what our country is about. They BOTH help the terrorists.

excon

Awlaqi has made himself an enemy of the state and taken sides with al-Qaeda. In my book that makes him an acceptable military target.

Our history tells a different tale. Seems to me that it is a late 20th century /21st century phenomenon that our sensibilities expects restraint .
I hope Holder tries to prosecute. I think you'll see jury nullification in a hurry.
As for the drone attacks... what alternative is there ? The Obots know the best policy for capture is GITMO ,but they've taken that option off the table. All they have left is execution... and that has been their policy.

In my book that makes him an acceptable military target.Hello again, Steve:

The problem is, YOUR book doesn't count... In a nation ruled by law, and NOT by men, it's the Constitution that counts... It's easy to disregard the Constitution when things are rough. But, that's when it COUNTS the most.

excon

The Obots know the best policy for capture is GITMO ,but they've taken that option off the table. All they have left is execution....and that has been their policy.Hello again, tom:

They HAVE painted themselves into a corner, haven't they?? He should have closed it, like he SAID he would...

excon

The problem is, YOUR book doesn't count... In a nation ruled by law, and NOT by men, it's the Constitution that counts... It's easy to disregard the Constitution when things are rough. But, that's when it COUNTS the most.

Congress gave Bush and hence Obama the authority to use military force against al-Qaeda, that would include Alwaqi. Dd SCOTUS strike down the AUMF (http://news.findlaw.com/wp/docs/terrorism/sjres23.es.html)? If not it it the law of the land is it not? Since Obama has painted himself om a corner that's all he has left is treat them as military targets and take' them out.

If not it it the law of the land is it not? Since Obama has painted himself om a corner that's all he has left is treat them as military targets and take' em out.Hello again, Steve:

I don't know if you remember, but I spoke interminably about the loss of our Fifth Amendment right to "due process of law"... You guys kept on saying, oh no, excon, they'll NEVER designate an American citizen to be an enemy combatant, and thereby REMOVING his right to due process of law... Oh, no... That's only for terrorists...

But, of course, you see now, that the government can decide that ANYBODY is an enemy combatant simply by declaring it to be so... Consequently, if the government can declare it void, WE (that's YOU & ME) no longer have a right to due process of law. Being a Constitutional kind of guy, I'm a stickler on it, and THAT pisses me off...

People who ruin the Constitution like that HATE America. Why do the righty's HATE America?

excon

Hello again, smoothy:

It's not that I care about the terrorists.. It's that I that I LOVE my country. I've spoken about the "fabric" of our country, and how becoming torturers changes it... I suspect you haven't a clue about what that is. Maybe you missed civics that day.

excon

Really? I didn't miss that civics class or any other.

We also didn't assign non-existent rights to foreign combatants.

Did you apprehend book and have a trial for every Viet Cong, and NVA soldier you came across in Vietnam? You didn't? THen didn't you voilate the COnstitutional rights they supposedly had...

Oh, they didn't have them... right... so when and who extended these very much American rights to people who aren't American and have never even been here in most cases?

How about all the other Americans that violated the rights of the Japanese and the Germans and all their Allies during WW2.

Oh right... THEY didn't have them either.


So exactly WHY do Muslim Terrorists have these rights above all others in the world.


Its no great secret that most real soldiers of the world are covered by the Geneva Convention... these aren't real soldiers.

Odd that Muslim TERRORISTS have more rights than Spies that get caught have as well.

Wow, the US seems like a nice place to live.

I was referring specifically to the fact that if you are caught doing anything while driving by the traffic Nazi's... guilt is assumed and you have to prove innocence rather than the other way around that is true for everything else.

Not as bad as in most of the world where you actually have to pay any and all fines on the spot.

But, of course, you see now, that the government can decide that ANYBODY is an enemy combatant simply by declaring it to be so...

If they can capture Awlaqi then read him his rights. OK? Meanwhile, he is treasonous leader of al-Qaeda who believes it is his "Islamic duty" to fight against the US military. Even the UN lists him as a terrorist and member of Al Qaeda.

When his father filed suit against the US his legal team contacted the director of the Centre for the Study of Human Rights at the London School of Economics and Political Science for advice, who said:


I have considerable respect for CCR. But in this case they have made a serious error of ethical judgment. Does a highly respected organisation, founded in the midst of historic struggles for civil rights and racial justice, now wish to be perceived by some as al-Qaida's legal team? Can you fight extra-judicial assassinations by standing alongside someone who advocates extra-judicial assassinations?

You just see him as a US citizen. I see him as a jihadist waging war against his own country and others. I don't see how protecting our country from a man waging war against us is ruining the constitution.

I don't see how protecting our country from a man waging war against us is ruining the constitution.Hello again, Steve:

If he's committing a crime, go arrest him. But, we don't kill American citizens because the president wants to.

excon

What crime ? He is plotting and leading foreign jihadists in a war against the US on the battle field .What ? You don't think enemy training camps as legitimate targets ? Maybe we should ask the Yemeni government that is about to go down ;and never really administered law and order in the mountainous regions where the jihadists camps are ,to extradite him so he can be dutifully served. I know you don't think we should go in there and do a rendition.

Like you said ;the Obots painted themselves in a corner because they think this war is a kinetic overseas contingency operation .

they think this war is a kinetic overseas contingency operation .

Very strange way to describe a war. The Afghan war is not being waged to avoid a contingency. The Afghan war is being waged because persons under auspices of the then afghan government attacked a target in the USA, not an event contingent upon any action, but an actual event. Bush said the war was being waged to prevent attacks on the US but in fact it is pure retaliation and would have some point if the persons complicit in the attack could be located and engaged. They are unfortunately long gone, long dead or well hidden and there seems little point to hunting them down to the last man standing. Kinetic speaks of energy but there is no real energy, just relentless thrust and retreat, take some ground, yield it again and take it again while the toll mounts.

I didn't make up the phrase... I've always called it a 'war against Jihadistan'... That may be a fictional nation as far as contingent borders ;but it is as much a war against a political philosophy as the Cold War was.It transcends borders and is as much existential as the Cold War .Afghanistan is but a front in that war.

is as much existential as the Cold War .Afghanistan is but a front in that war.

So now the war is existential, I have news for you it is very real, at least the one in Afghanistan, in some other places like the US it might just be an idea, a mind game, but it is played with real bullets and real bombs and real dead people. The cold war killed people too ask the people, in Vietnam and Afghanistan and Korea

And the Cold War was existential . You do know what that means... don't you ? I'm not talking the philosophical concept but the actual dictionary definition.
existential - definition of existential by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia. (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/existential)

. You do know what that means... don't you ? I'm not talking the philosophical concept but the actual dictionary definition.
Url]


denoting or relating to a formula or proposition asserting the existence of at least one object fulfilling a given condition; containing an existential quantifier

A word that defines itsself by itsself so by this definition the USA is existential

1. Of, relating to, or dealing with existence.

The classic definition of "existential" pertaining to existence dates back at least to the 17th century before 20th century redefined the word . Perhaps to make it clear to 21st century nit-pickers a better sentence would be 'jihadistan (or before that global communism )is/was a threat to the existence of Western civilization ;the US ,Europe etc'

Perhaps I could redefine it another way.

We are at war, we have a war on poverty, a war on terror, a war on drugs and several other wars. They exist because we have said they exist
proposition asserting the existence of words contained in my definition, but in truth they do not exist because they are just an idea

Our enemy is quite real and not an idea . It is not his thoughts that are a threat ,it's his actions .
It is words like 'war on terror".. GWOT etc and now morphed to absurdities like kinetic responses to man made disasters that confuse people and thus weaken our response and resolve.

our enemy is quite real and not an idea . .

We have met him and he is us

After this much Obama I am lovin' Hillary more and more. She impolitely snubbed the useful idiot (http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/05/17/state_department_snubs_the_elders).


It's no secret at all that the Elders' trip to North Korea was viewed as extremely unhelpful by the governments both in Washington and Seoul. Chris Nelson reported on April 29 that Clinton reacted strongly when asked in a morning meeting if she wanted to meet with Carter. From the Nelson report:


The performance of President Carter and his delegation in N. Korea this week was either shameful or fatuous...or both...and exemplifies why Carter had no...zero...USG support going in, and even less coming out, per an alleged eye witness account of Sec. St. Clinton at the morning meeting the other day:

"Do you want to meet with Carter?" Clinton is looking at papers, and just says "No." Then she pauses, looks up and adds, "HELL no!!!"

The Elders huh ? What a group of misfits ! Won't be long before Obama joins the club .

I have to admit . I'm beginning to appreciate Evita's toughness.