I happened upon another question about a haunting wherein many of the answers emphasized the necessity of using Jesus, Allah, or God's name to defeat evil spirits-since humans don't have the power to fight off spirits. Someone said that wherever Jesus is, demons are not.

I am fascinated with this topic-whether it's real or folklore-and the answers that I cited above really have me wondering about things such as stigmata and possession (stuff I've seen in movies). Does that stuff actually happen and if so why does it sometimes happen to religious people (if divine authority drives away demons, how are they able to possess the religious)?

I know some people don't believe in hauntings and spirits, but my question applies to both reality and folklore-so any thoughts would be great. Thanks! (if this belongs in more of a discussion forum-I apologize)

Stigmata (the wounds of Christ) are supposed to be from God, not from a demon. It's a Catholic phenomenon (mostly).

Stigmata (the wounds of Christ) are supposed to be from God, not from a demon. It's a Catholic phenomenon (mostly).

Oh. I don't know why I never knew that. Thanks for the info. That's a whole other can of worms for me to look into, now!

So I suppose my question only applies to possession and/or other demon hauntings of religious people.

Thanks!

Well, I can speak only concerning the Christian who has been born again. Satan no longer has any real power of them. They can allow a demon to oppress them and give demons access to their minds by not knowing the word of God and who they are in Christ but they cannot be pocessed by a demon. Because the Holy Spirit lives in them. Plus the Bible tells us point blank... Greater is he that is in YOU than he that is in the world. So for the Christian, satan has no authority over them. Because Christ conquered all of that and bought us back at the cross. That is why using Jesus name is so powerful... he defeated Satan and his demons. They are subject to him.

I've notice that atheists and agnostics rarely report being haunted or any supernatural happenings. I wonder if there's a relation there.

NeedKarma-I've made that connection in my mind too.

I, for example, believe in God and really want to believe in the paranormal. I've had several experiences with other people around where they swear it was paranormal but I always write it off if there's any possible way it can be explained naturally. As badly as I want to see a ghost, I think it will be impossible for me to do so unless it's a see-through dead relative or friend who's come back to haunt me. Even then I might check myself in to the asylum.

Agnostics and especially Atheists are especially prone to look at things from a scientific and material standpoint. Anything that could be interpreted as odd or ghostly by someone who's less prone to that way of thinking would be explained away by a more scientific mind.

While I tend to be more grounded in my way of thinking, there's a little room in my mind for the mystical.

ClassyT-thank you for taking time to answer my inquiries!

While I tend to be more grounded in my way of thinking, there's a little room in my mind for the mystical.
I don't see any reason why atheists and agnostics would not be as grounded as you yet they often are not involved in anything mystical. It's almost as if a strong faith predisposes one to believe in ghosts and supernatural phenomena.

It's almost as if a strong faith predisposes one to believe in ghosts and supernatural phenomena. That's kind of what I was trying to say. I think because some people look for natural causes to things while others look for paranormal/divine/mystical causes, different people would interpret the same experience completely differently. Maybe it's the way our minds are individually wired.

I happened upon another question about a haunting wherein many of the answers emphasized the necessity of using Jesus, Allah, or God's name to defeat evil spirits-since humans don't have the power to fight off spirits. Someone said that wherever Jesus is, demons are not.

I am fascinated with this topic-whether it's real or folklore-and the answers that I cited above really have me wondering about things such as stigmata and possession (stuff I've seen in movies). Does that stuff actually happen and if so why does it sometimes happen to religious people (if divine authority drives away demons, how are they able to possess the religious)?

I know some people don't believe in hauntings and spirits, but my question applies to both reality and folklore-so any thoughts would be great. Thanks! (if this belongs in more of a discussion forum-I apologize)

Back to your original question. You might find this link interesting reading when you have time. It speaks directly on the subject.

What the Bible says about: Ghosts, and Psychics (http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/ghosts.html)

I've notice that atheists and agnostics rarely report being haunted or any supernatural happenings. I wonder if there's a relation there.

You are stating this 'tongue in cheek' ? Right ?

I don't see any reason why atheists and agnostics would not be as grounded as you yet they often are not involved in anything mystical. It's almost as if a strong faith predisposes one to believe in ghosts and supernatural phenomena.

Could it be, do you think, that satan has no need to oppress athiests and agnostics, but that he seeks to oppress those who have declared their position and opposition? It is the other side of the coin isn't it?

Could it be, do you think, that satan has no need to oppress athiests and agnostics, but that he seeks to oppress those who have declared their position and opposition? It is the other side of tthe coin isn't it?

Well that's really sad. If that's true then it would be a huge reason not to believe in God.

Well that's really sad. If that's true then it would be a huge reason not to believe in God.
Assuming it is a conscious decision one can make.

So, I'm thinking there may not be an actual reason in the folklore or study of paranormal science or religion that discusses the relationship here?

The link posted earlier seems to hint that it's largely an avoided topic (HOWEVER, I haven't finished exploring the link)

Assuming it is a conscious decision one can make.

So, I'm thinking there may not be an actual reason in the folklore or study of paranormal science or religion that discusses the relationship here?

The link posted earlier seems to hint that it's largely an avoided topic (HOWEVER, I haven't finished exploring the link)

That article is more of the religions point of view as it relates to this subject. Its really a this or that option according to that source. Where science comes in it has expanded the horizon and has sought to prove it out through experimentation. Some that has been proven is that everyone seems to carry the "god" gene. Another is how sightings of the paranormal seem to have also associations with magnetic fields and with electricity. Also there are broader definitions. Like a risidual haunting (its like a movie playing over and over) vs a spiritual haunting (one that seems to have independent thought). The first (residual) you can not interact with only observe. The second (spiritual) seems to be interactive (move objects or evp's).

It's a wide ranging subject. Also under the same umbrella as paranormal are the extended abilities of mankind (womankind too). Those of psychic ability. So when the subject comes up its not as narrow as some people think.

Well that's really sad. If that's true then it would be a huge reason not to believe in God.

How twisted can you get. The reason to believe in God is he is the only answer to satan

You are stating this 'tongue in cheek' ? Right ?Nope, entirely serious.

How twisted can you get. The reason to believe in God is he is the only answer to satan
So if one neither believes in god and satan then that removes a lot of conflict in life doesn't it.

So if one neither believes in god and satan then that removes a lot of conflict in life doesn't it.

Blissful ignorance

Blissful ignoranceOk, works for me and millions of others, no-hauntings clause included at no extra cost! And what are we missing exactly from living like this?

And what are we missing exactly from living like this?
1) the creepiness of hearing strange bumps in the night
2) the cold fingers of spirits marking a trail down your spine
3) the coppery taste of blood when you haven't bitten down on your tongue or lips (yet)
4) your Ouija planchette spinning out of control with a mind of its own and spelling out "Beware, the day has come!"
5) the odd smell of moldy sweatpants wafting over your face whilst you lie in bed at midnight
6) out of the corner of your eye, the glimpse of a black shadow in the shape of excon -- and you hear his cat meow!

You're awesome. :)

Ok, works for me and millions of others, no-hauntings clause included at no extra cost! And what are we missing exactly from living like this?

Exactly. Doesn't sound like such a bad deal to me. :)

I'm a Christian. I have never encountered a ghost, demon or anything. It's a BETTER deal for me because I believe Satan has no power over me.

Just because I believe there is a spirtual world out there that includes angels and demons doesn't mean that I focus on them. It is what it is.

Southamerica, this question opens a BIG can of worms if you know what I mean.

A lot of things need to be defined before any real discussion can go forth. Such as what is a REAL Christian? Because there are MANY MANY people that suffer from spiritual issues that CLAIM they are a Christian when in fact, they are not. Yes, these issues DO happen... certainly Hollywood has glorified and exaggerated it, but that doesn't take away from the reality of it all.

These things happen to every sort of person... poor people, rich people, religious people, ATHEISTS and AGNOSTICS, smart people, dumb people. To say this type of thing only happens to people that believe in it is just ignorance. I personally know someone who was FORCED to believe the reality of this, against their wishes, when unexplained phenomena starting happening in his home after his wife's suicide.

Quite frankly the bible covers just about every topic you can think of... psychic phenomena/fortune telling, ghosts, demons, angels, necromancy... most people are just too unwilling to put the puzzle pieced together. Here's a very easy example... the bible is very clear that the human spirit (whether evil or good) does not "hang around" after death but goes to it's place of judgement. It is also very clear that Satan is the 'Father of all Lies' and can appear as an 'Angel of Light', we should expect his followers/angels to do likewise. So when a spirit appears on the scene claiming to be dead aunt Sally... biblically speaking it's quite obvious what kind of spirit it is.

I am a Christian and according to the Word of God I have authority over these evil powers in Jesus' name. One has to EXERCISE this authority to use it... that is what so many of the "religious" crowd get walked on by the Devil... they either allow it or they are ignorant of their position in Christ. I know for a fact it works... I have had to remove spirits on more than one occasion.

Southamerica, I welcome any further questions/concerns you have.

Here's a very easy example... the bible is very clear that the human spirit (whether evil or good) does not "hang around" after death but goes to it's place of judgement. It is also very clear that Satan is the 'Father of all Lies' and can appear as an 'Angel of Light', we should expect his followers/angels to do likewise. So when a spirit appears on the scene claiming to be dead aunt Sally... biblically speaking it's quite obvious what kind of spirit it is.


Since you believe in the bible, and are a Christian, then this explanation is what best suits you. That doesn't make it fact, that's just your belief, and you have a right to it. Others believe different things, and their beliefs are just as valid as yours.

When my daughter was little (around 2 years old) she started seeing two older people in her room at night. They only came when she was scared, and they always made her feel safe.

She never met my parents, and she'd never seen pictures. She was too young to understand that Oma and Opa had died before she was born.

One day we were looking through the family album, and we got to a page with pictures of my parents. She said "Those are the two people that come to my room".

To you that was the devil playing tricks. To me it was my parents watching out for my daughter.

Believe what you want, but don't state it as fact, because it isn't.

Since you believe in the bible, and are a Christian, then this explanation is what best suits you. That doesn't make it fact, that's just your belief, and you have a right to it. Others believe different things, and their beliefs are just as valid as yours.

When my daughter was little (around 2 years old) she started seeing two older people in her room at night. They only came when she was scared, and they always made her feel safe.

She never met my parents, and she'd never seen pictures. She was too young to understand that Oma and Opa had died before she was born.

One day we were looking through the family album, and we got to a page with pictures of my parents. She said "Those are the two people that come to my room".

To you that was the devil playing tricks. To me it was my parents watching out for my daughter.

Believe what you want, but don't state it as fact, because it isn't.

Interesting Alty, I didn't realize that happened to your little girl. I know you don't call yourself an atheist but a diest. Do believe that we go somewhere when we die? Meaning our soul or spirit goes elsewhere? Because I'm assuming that NK doesn't... he doesn't believe in any kind of spirtual world.

Am I correct, NK ? By the way... were you calling me awesome? I didn't want to jump all over that... but I am awesome and thanks for noticing... ha ha:D

Interesting Alty, i didn't realize that happened to your little girl. I know you don't call yourself an atheist but a diest. Do believe that we go somewhere when we die? meaning our soul or spirit goes elsewhere? Because I'm assuming that NK doesn't...he doesn't believe in any kind of spirtual world.

Am I correct, NK ? btw...were you calling me awesome? I didn't want to jump all over that...but I am awesome and thanks for noticing....ha ha:D

I'm still on the fence about what happens after death. I really want to believe there's a heaven, or a wonderful place that we go to once we die. Is heaven run by God though? As a Deist I don't believe that God cares about his creation, so how could he care about what happens to us after we die? If there is a "heaven" I don't know if it's necessarily run by any God. Maybe it's just another realm, another "universe" that we go to once we die.

I do believe that our souls don't just disappear when we die. I believe that we're so much more then just the bodies that tie us to this earth. I also very much believe that my parents did and still do watch over my family.

I guess there's only one way to find out what happens once we die, and I for one am not curious enough to find out. ;)

So when a spirit appears on the scene claiming to be dead aunt Sally...biblically speaking it's quite obvious what kind of spirit it is.

Im curious what kind that would be? It seems you have a vandetta against christians.

A lot of things need to be defined before any real discussion can go forth. Such as what is a REAL Christian?

That's actually a great point: IF Jesus drives away evil forces, then one must GENUINELY have Jesus in his/her heart in order to utilize that protection.


Altenweg, I find that story about your daughter so touching. I lost my grandfather in 2004 and my niece in 2005. He was one of my greatest mentors and a close friend to all of us. She was 8 years old and was already an inspiring believer. I talk to them often before I go to sleep and hope they can hear me, or at least the messages are relayed to them :). Most of all I hope their amazing souls have been put to use elsewhere beside here on Earth.

To all, this thread is incredible to me because I'm seeing Christians, Deists, and I believe a couple Atheists discussing something that is normally a "hot" topic (with a lot of hate thrown around), but here on AMHD everyone is able to discuss and learn without any hateful/unhelpful remarks. It's great! I rarely get to discuss the paranormal without some sort of sarcasm or fanaticism involved, and I have a great interest in the paranormal though I have never experienced it.

I rarely get to discuss the paranormal without some sort of sarcasm or fanaticism involved, and I have a great interest in the paranormal though I have never experienced it.
Someday I'll tell you about my guardian angel, AngelWolf, who's been taking care of me since I was very young. Now that I think of it, he was probably the one who nudged me into an impromptu visit to a woman I hardly knew to save her life.

A vandetta against Christians? In what way? Like I said, biblically speaking, it's quite obvious what kind of spirit it would be.

That's actually a great point: IF Jesus drives away evil forces, then one must GENUINELY have Jesus in his/her heart in order to utilize that protection.

Southamerica you are correct in that statement. While this type of Christian does have the utmost control over these evil powers... the bible does elude to the fact that simply by His name these things have to obey. I know of non-Christians who have used His name to repel an evil spirit, and this is scriptural in that Jesus said some would come to him on the day of Judgement and say "Lord, Lord did we not cast out demons in your name?" and He will say "away from me, for I did not know you".

Comment on califdadof3's post

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Quote:
Originally Posted by califdadof3
Quote:
Originally Posted by hauntinghelper
So when a spirit appears on the scene claiming to be dead aunt Sally...biblically speaking it's quite obvious what kind of spirit it is.

Im curious what kind that would be? It seems you have a vandetta against christians.

A vandetta against Christians? In what way? Like I said, biblically speaking, it's quite obvious what kind of spirit it would be.

Im asking because in most of your posts when you make mention of biblical spirits you infer they are all bad. So that is why Im asking. Is that what your trying to say about all spirits ?

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying when you rule out the angelic and human, there is only one kind of spirit left. Human spirits do not remain on the earth after death. Angelic spirits, when making direct contact with someone, will typically identify themselves as such. However, the bible tells us to test the spirits... more people would do well if they would follow through with this advice.

So, in what way do I have a vendetta with Christianity?

Angelic spirits, when making direct contact with someone, will typically identify themselves as such. How do you know this?

Hello NK:

He got an email. What? Spirits don't use the interweb?

excon

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying when you rule out the angelic and human, there is only one kind of spirit left. Human spirits do not remain on the earth after death. Angelic spirits, when making direct contact with someone, will typically identify themselves as such. However, the bible tells us to test the spirits...more people would do well if they would follow through with this advice.

So, in what way do I have a vendetta with Christianity?

When you start by making blanket statements and judging others. As when you said " Christian? Because there are MANY MANY people that suffer from spiritual issues that CLAIM they are a Christian when infact, they are not. " your making some huge assumptions when you don't have a right to. Your trying to make yourself and your church as the only one that can be christian. And to me that's not only wrong it shows you have a vandetta against other christians not in your church.

I understand that not everybody believes the bible to be true. But if you follow it as your guideline, then in more cases that is what happened. True, the bible does say something about entertaining strangers that are really angels. I am talking more specifically about the ones that converse with people and are trying to make contact or give some sort of revelation.

I understand that not everybody believes the bible to be true. But if you follow it as your guideline, then in more cases that is what happened. True, the bible does say something about entertaining strangers that are really angels. I am talking more specifically about the ones that converse with people and are trying to make contact or give some sort of revelation.Well you didn't really answer the question. What is the basis for your statement: "when making direct contact with someone, will typically identify themselves as such." Surely the bible addresses it directly?

Well, you see, there are the Christians who believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God, who died for their sins and rose from the dead. Those who have repented of their sins and asked Him to be a part of their life. THAT is what the Bible calls a Christian. Then there are those you simply think that living in America makes them a Christian... or believing that God exists and refuse to take that knowledge to the next crucial step. The Bible tells us that "you say there is a God? You do well, but even the demons believe...and TREMBLE". I hope you can see that fine line between believing God exists and having Him be apart of your life. There IS a difference. So, as you can see I have made no such "blanket" statement. I have in no way brought up denominationalism or who in the Christian faith is "right" or "wrong". I am going according to the revealed Word of God for the definition of what a Christian is... not what someone THINKS it should mean

There are many types of angels spoken of in scripture. There are ones that are simply messengers... such as Gabriel. There are some that wage spiritual warfare such as Michael. They are simply used to do the will of God. Guarding the garden of Eden so Adam and Eve did not return, destroying the walls of Jericho, sending answers for prayers. They have been used for many many things scripturally. Look through the bible when angels dealt with mankind. They identified themselves as being sent from God for "fill-in the blank" purpose. The bible tells us to test the spirits because not everything that PRESENTS itself as an angel really is... that's why it's important to know the purpose and motives of angels. If you think I am going to quote every verse in the bible that mentions an angelic situation, you can grab a copy of the Bible and read it for yourself.

I am going according to the revealed Word of God for the definition of what a Christian is... not what someone THINKS it should mean

The revealed word of God according to who?

Ask 20 Christians what a bible passage means, you'll get 20 different answers. That's why I don't adhere to the bible, because it's all in how you interpret it. It's not cut and dry.

Your interpretation isn't someone else's interpretation. So who's right? Who's wrong? If the bible is the "word of God" then wouldn't it be clear to everyone that read it? It's not. Go to the Christian forum of this site, you'll see how many interpretations each part of the bible has.

So, my question is this. Why should we take your interpretation as fact? What makes your interpretation any more valid then someone else?

Well, to be honest, anyone who says they can't believe the bible because everyone thinks it means something different is just plain lazy.

You're relying on others to make up your mind for you. Why not read it yourself... who cares what someone else THINKS it says. If you read it simply to see what it says it becomes VERY clear. In MOST cases it's because someone WANTS the Bible to mean something to fit their predetermined belief. I read the Bible to know what God has revealed to humanity... not to prove MY ideals. I get my ideals FROM the bible, not the other way around.

Do you think those hypocrites over at Westboro Baptist Church that are always in the news are following God's example of love and compassion? Just because they bend the Word of God to FIT their form of hatred, does not legitimize it. It takes SOME common sense to know when some people are right and wrong in their "version" of the bible.

I'm not pushing a special denomination or version of the bible... it means what it says and it says what it means. It's not that difficult.

I guess it's time for me to give you a bit of background on me.

I am 40 years old. I was raised Lutheran, baptized and confirmed in the Lutheran church. I went to a Catholic school from grade 2 until grade 12. That's 10 years. I've read the bible, I've studied the bible, I've done all of that. So no, I'm far from lazy.

I didn't just wake up one day and say "hey, today I think I'll be a Deist". It's something I thought about for a long time before making that choice. Why did I choose this faith, because the Christian faith makes no sense to me.

That doesn't mean that I don't respect your right to believe what you want, but please don't even try to tell me that the bible is only interpreted one way, that it says what it means and means what it says. That's not the case, not by a long shot.

Like I said, go to the Religious forum on this site. You'll see people of the same faith, same beliefs, arguing about what the bible means. So, if it says what it means, why do so many people have a different version of that meaning?

If it's not that difficult, why don't all Christians agree?

I didn't say the bible is only interpreted one way. That's the problem we're discussing. What I AM saying is that the Bible only has one meaning... it's when man gets his hands in there and messes things up that it becomes an issue. I told you, many people first believe something and then try and get the bible to fit their belief. Most problems will come from that. Just because someone says something does not mean it's correct. I am going to accept any person as a brother that confesses that Jesus Christ as the Son of God and their savior... no matter what they think about baptism or the rapture or ghosts. Some denominations are going to be more "man-made" than others and it sounds like your got a heaping spoonful of that between the Lutheran church and Catholicism. A lot of people come from those very showy and "religious" parts of Christianity hurt and confused. That will always happen if you see more of man in Christianity than of Christ.

I don't know what you encountered and I don't know your problems with Christianity... but I do know if you spend more time looking at what man has done and is doing than what God ACTUALLY said in His Word... you'll walk away feeling screwed every time.

Maybe you haven't been lazy in trying to study the Bible... but I still have to question people when they walk away from the bible and have no idea what to believe. A lot of people are saying that Christ is going to return on May 21st of this year. Does that bother me or scare me one bit? NO, because I know that the bible tells us very plainly that NO MAN KNOWS THE DAY OR THE HOUR OF HIS RETURN. Some people are just brainwashed and stupid... and I can't help that... but what I can tell you is that if you read it simply to see what God said... you'll walk away smarter than most "Christians" are.

but I still have to question people when they walk away from the bible and have no idea what to believe.

You're assuming that I don't know what to believe. Did you miss the part where I told you my beliefs? I'm a Deist. I know exactly what I believe, and it doesn't include the bible. I didn't walk away from anything, I found what works for me.


Some people are just brainwashed and stupid... and I can't help that... but what I can tell you is that if you read it simply to see what God said... you'll walk away smarter than most "Christians" are.

Now I'm brainwashed and stupid because I don't follow the bible in my beliefs? What makes you think I'm not already smarter then most "Christians"?

I don't want to turn this into a religious battle. There's never a winner, only two losers. You have a right to your beliefs, but realize that they're just that, beliefs. They're not factually based, any more then my beliefs are.

I'm not trying to change your mind about what you believe, and you won't change my mind either. Just try to respect the fact that not everyone feels the same way you do. Your beliefs come out in every one of your posts. That's fine, but stop stating them as fact, because they're far from it.

I wasn't calling YOU stupid and brainwashed... I was referring to the various cults and sects that, very obviously, twist scripture for their needs. I thought it was obvious I wasn't referring to you and for that I apologize.

I am VERY aware that not everybody believes the same... and even more aware not every one will have their mind changed by my beliefs... but, I'm sure you understand that for the sake of even one person I have to put those beliefs out there, because there are SOME that it might help.

...I was referring to the various cults and sects that, very obviously, twist scripture for their needs.
That's pretty much every christian denomination or else why would there be different denominations? Think about it.

That's pretty much every christian denomination or else why would there be different denominations? Think about it.
Some are really offensive in the way they use scripture to justify their perverse actions. Others-not so much. One can say that they're all cults, but not all of them (I would say most of them even) use scripture to justify violence or hatred.

That's pretty much every christian denomination or else why would there be different denominations? Think about it.

I don't have a pipe, so I think I will just stick to worshipping my garden and my tanned body as soon as I see some sun around here soon. Unless there is a tidal wave on Lake Ontario, then that will put a scotch to all my plans of a lovely garden this summer. I am quite close to Lake Ontario.

Bruce Nuclear Station isn't too far off either... note to self... must worry about that too.

I wasn't calling YOU stupid and brainwashed... I was referring to the various cults and sects that, very obviously, twist scripture for their needs. I thought it was obvious I wasn't referring to you and for that I apologize.


Apology accepted.

Question, you say that you're referring to sects and cults that twist scripture for their needs. I don't want to start a battle, but that includes every religious denomination I've ever studied. Like I stated before, ask 10 different Christians what a bible passage means, you'll get 10 different answers, even if they're of the same faith. So, who's wrong and who's right?

Do you realize that many religious groups will say that you're the one twisting the scriptures to suit your own needs? That's the nature of religion, they all believe they're the ones that are right.


I am VERY aware that not everybody believes the same... and even more aware not every one will have their mind changed by my beliefs... but, I'm sure you understand that for the sake of even one person I have to put those beliefs out there, because there are SOME that it might help.

You're right, there are some people that believe, and will feel comforted by your posts, but there are many more that do not believe in God, or the bible. I've seen you preach the bible in the paranormal forum, and the OP (original poster) has asked you to stop, because your beliefs aren't theirs. Did you stop? No. In fact, there have been times where you ridiculed them for not believing what you believe. That's not okay.

If you want to post in the paranormal forum, by all means do, but as soon as someone says that your beliefs don't work for them, accept that and move on. That's the main issue I have. To continue to post your beliefs when someone has clearly stated that they're not interested, that's no okay, not on any level.

as soon as someone says that your beliefs don't work for them, accept that and move on. That's the main issue I have. To continue to post your beliefs when someone has clearly stated that they're not interested, that's no okay, not on any level.

This is not on the topic of the OP, but as the OP I am going to allow myself to do this, haha...

I have had a lot of personal lessons about differences in opinions, values, principles, morals, etc etc. A friend of mine did something I was morally opposed to and when I asked her to consider not doing what she did, she simply said, "You and I have always viewed this differently." I reacted the only way I knew how, and that was by saying "I respect your rights, but I cannot talk to you about this anymore. Do what you have to do, but please accept my silence on the matter." That meant I didn't want to hear about it anymore and I couldn't advise her further. Though she didn't take it well at all and told me I abandoned her in a time of need... I can't figure out how I could have managed the situation differently to this day.

The way I see it: we all have personal beliefs, upbringings, and experiences that have formed us and almost always we enter a situation with those blinders on, assuming that *our* way IS the highway. I have a theory that we could really benefit in life if we realized two things:

1) Our views might clash with other people from time to time, and our advice might not be helpful, it might even be hurtful, if the person seeking advice views things differently. If you cannot help someone because you are just too different... then don't say anything at all.

2) If we are seeking advice and someone (especially a friend) cannot help you because they view the situation from a completely different angle... we need to accept it.

My non-confrontational approach might be too "protected", however.

I do think about it and KNOW about it. It's not really the same thing at all.

Altenweg - Yes, that happened one time... and it's something I'm not going to do again.

I have to disagree with you again on the "every Christian has their own interpretation" thing. The bible isn't as top secret as you're trying to make it sound. There are those that are just too wrapped up in themselves to see what it is really saying. There are very very FEW things that are actually hard to figure out what the bible is telling us. So what if one denomination claims you have to be baptized UNDER water while others just "sprinkle"... in the long run it doesn't matter and that kind of stuff is the MAJORITY of the denominational differences. They aren't struggling with whether Jesus was the Son of God or not... it's petty little things that don't matter... so who cares if they are wrong or right. It's not nullifying their ability to get into Heaven.

At the ascension of Christ into Heaven, an angel said to those witnesses that he would return in like manner. The bible goes onto say we will meet Him in the air when He returns for His church. Some people will read into all kinds of BS as to what it means... but what does it really say? It says He's going to return the same way he left. IT'S NOT THAT HARD... but there will always be some half-wit out there running his mouth about how he knows the REAL secret behind all of that. PLEASE! It means what it says!
The bible was meant for everyone to read and understand. It's not written for some that have a select knowledge. It's for CHILDREN to understand.

Altenweg - Yes, that happened one time...and it's something I'm not going to do again.

I have to disagree with you again on the "every Christian has their own interpretation" thing. The bible isn't as top secret as you're trying to make it sound. There are those that are just too wrapped up in themselves to see what it is really saying. There are very very FEW things that are actually hard to figure out what the bible is telling us. So what if one denomination claims you have to be baptized UNDER water while others just "sprinkle"...in the long run it doesn't matter and that kind of stuff is the MAJORITY of the denominational differences. They aren't struggling with whether Jesus was the Son of God or not...it's petty little things that don't matter....so who cares if they are wrong or right. It's not nullifying their ability to get into Heaven.

At the ascension of Christ into Heaven, an angel said to those witnesses that he would return in like manner. The bible goes onto say we will meet Him in the air when He returns for His church. Some people will read into all kinds of BS as to what it means...but what does it really say? It says He's going to return the same way he left. IT'S NOT THAT HARD...but there will always be some half-wit out there running his mouth about how he knows the REAL secret behind all of that. PLEASE! It means what it says!
The bible was meant for everyone to read and understand. It's not written for some that have a select knowledge. It's for CHILDREN to understand.

I happen to agree with Altenweg on her interpitation. No the bible isn't secret. But when it comes to figure out the meanings for things even like commandments then you can have major splits. It goes way beyond sprinkling vs submersion. Christians are going to argue over method when they belong to different denominations. Also they will vary within the word. Just look at how many different versions of the bible that are out there today. It creates confusion amongst those of us that call ourself christian.

With that said. I do applaud you for taking to heart advice given to you in the paranormal thread and being less "preachy" as of late. Im glad this thread was started so we have a chance to air some things and express our differences. Thanks OP.

MY point about the whole Christian denominational differences is "so what". People are always going to argue and there is simply nothing we can do about that. But the world does need to know that not every Christian is like that and the bible CAN be simple. Don't let other people blur what the bible says. Even the different translations of the bible aren't worth saying "I just don't know what to believe". Hebrew and Greek don't translate into English so perfectly and I think the many translations have done a fine job in giving us, as a whole, a very accurate portrayal of what was written.

One thing we have to keep in mind is that it's the INTERPRETORS, not the interpretation, that are getting things wrong. When someone says something evil is haunting their home, I take great pride in knowing that Jesus Christ gave us authority over such power in His name. This was not just the 12 apostles... and some people will argue that of course... but when I have seen and felt it applied in real life... I'm not just guessing that that is what the bible meant... I now KNOW that is what it meant. So when some Catholic says that only a priest can perform such exorcisms, it's not my interpretation that says that is incorrect, it's my EXPERIENCE that says that. I'm not a priest. I'm not ordained in anything. However, I have, more than once, used said spiritual authority.

You see, once you get what the bible REALLY means down inside of you... you don't have to worry about what "so and so" from the church down the street thinks it means. When I read the bible and then see a bunch of Christians acting in a manner that defies what that bible says... it's the Christians that are wrong, not the bible. People usually end up blaming God and the bible for what some ignorant Christian said or did.

I do appreciate this thread and the OP for bringing it up. I hope nothing on here is taken personally and that we can all get a better feel for each other.

Hi W, Toronto Star reported today a tremblor occurred between Ottawa and Montreal yesterday which measured 4.5. Which made itself known in all of surrounding area. Not felt where our town is though, which is a bit west of that area.

So... be afraid, be very afraid...
Tick

Wondergirl finds this helpful : My mom is right across the lake from you, so please, no tsunmis for Lake Ontario!

MY point about the whole Christian denominational differences is "so what".

a) you brought it up:

Originally Posted by hauntinghelper
... I was referring to the various cults and sects that, very obviously, twist scripture for their needs.

b) you are a part of one of those since you believe that the earth will end on May 21 2011, this is told to you by a religious "scholar".

b) you are a part of one of those since you believe that the earth will end on May 21 2011, this is told to you by a religious "scholar".

At least its going to happen after my son's birthday, that is very considerate.

I hope I learn how to merge posts before that.

Tick

Hello:

My religion says the end will be at 11:11 AM, on 11/11/11 - cause it just seems soooo right.

excon

b) you are a part of one of those since you believe that the earth will end on May 21 2011, this is told to you by a religious "scholar".

Are you sure you have that right NK? I know "headstrongboy" was saying that stuff about May 21, 2011 in the "Seeking God" thread, but I didn't see "hauntinghelper" saying that here. I haven't read everything HH has said in other threads, but I just wanted to make sure.

HH-I like what you've said: too many people blame God when it's a human's interpretation of God's word that's wrong, not God who's wrong.

I personally am far too novice in this life to start talking about what God wants, though I tried when I was younger. I feel in my heart that, as a baby in the grand scheme of things, God doesn't have such high standards that seeking him/her/it as a member of X denomination of X religion will send me or anyone else to hell (if hell exists). Just be good in the best way you know how-and try not to step on many toes.

You're welcome for starting the thread. It's been really interesting thus far.

Hello again,

I've tried to understand why this loving god would send his people to hell, or destroy them.. It never made sense to me, until a lady from the Westboro Baptist Church explained it to me. Yes, THAT Westboro Baptist Church.

She said that hell was the default, and you had to DO something to go to heaven. That makes so much more sense to me. A loving god WOULDN'T consign anybody to hell.

I don't know if this is worth anything, but I thought it clarified some stuff for me.

excon

Hello again,

I've tried to understand why this loving god would send his people to hell, or destroy them.. It never made sense to me, until a lady from the Westboro Baptist Church explained it to me. Yes, THAT Westboro Baptist Church.

She said that hell was the default, and you had to DO something to go to heaven. That makes so much more sense to me. A loving god WOULDN'T consign anybody to hell.

I dunno if this is worth anything, but I thought it clarified some stuff for me.

excon

I don't even believe in a hell. I am not so sure that God is "loving". "Love" is a corporal emotion, like hate, fear, and attraction. They help us as humans relate to one another, avoid danger, reproduce, etc. Why would an omniscient and omnipotent being have any need for human emotions? I think that God is much more distant from human-like than we (as egotistical creatures) have ever wanted to admit. If God is so much like the average joe I meet on the street... that's just plain scary!

Are you sure you have that right NK? I know "headstrongboy" was saying that stuff about May 21, 2011 in the "Seeking God" thread, but I didn't see "hauntinghelper" saying that here. I haven't read everything HH has said in other threads, but I just wanted to make sure.You are absolutely correct, thanks for correcting me.

hauntinghelper: my apologies, I did indeed get you confused with HeadStrongBoy.

Hello:

My religion says the end will be at 11:11 AM, on 11/11/11 - cause it just seems soooo right.

excon
Whew! My birthday is the 10th. I'll still be eating leftover cake.

You're correct... I do NOT believe that about May 21st 2011. I was using it as an example for what a cult is or how people twist scripture for their own needs. It's such a prime example of that because the bible so specifically says that no man will know the time of Christ's return. Funny how that doesn't stop them from saying that they know it.

Uhh... my apologies for the "red" mark. I didn't see this post until it was too late. Good thing you have quite the buffer of points.

I like to look at it this way. The bible tells us we were made in His image... let's not assume these emotions we have AS humans are strictly human in nature. There is a lot more of us that is God-like than is really taught to us. This could be more of a God attribute than a human one. Anger is not always bad... their is a righteous anger. Jealousy is not always bad... there is a righteous jealousy. Just because God displays emotions does not mean they are used in the same way ours are... very selfishly.

Hello again,

I've tried to understand why this loving god would send his people to hell, or destroy them.. It never made sense to me, until a lady from the Westboro Baptist Church explained it to me. Yes, THAT Westboro Baptist Church.

She said that hell was the default, and you had to DO something to go to heaven. That makes so much more sense to me. A loving god WOULDN'T consign anybody to hell.

I dunno if this is worth anything, but I thought it clarified some stuff for me.

excon

My dearest pal,

I'm confuzzled. I think.

Your friend was right.. God doesn't send anyone there and the ONLY thing you have to do ( according to what I understand in the Bible) is reject Christ as your savior.

A loving God wouldn't send anyone there, instead he sent his SON in your place.

You know exy.. I wouldn't keep on telling you that, if I didn't care. :)

uhh...my apologies for the "red" mark. I didn't see this post until it was too late. Good thing you have quite the buffer of points.
No biggee. It's just a website.:)

HH-I can see what you're saying... and I could even accept it. The issue is so many religious people do make God selfish and human. It's when "God" throws a fit over simple human short-comings that the image of an all-knowing, all-loving creator/source and center breaks down... for me.

I could attribute love, empathy, altruism, and the like to a God. Those are rarely seen in animals the way they are in humans. The God version of all of those things is probably something that we cannot comprehend, yet. If it is-I would be disappointed :)

Well, let's look at it like this. Remember, by default humanity is born selfish and in sin. God had a plan, Jesus Christ... THE way THE truth and THE life, to redeem mankind back to himself, since sin of any kind cannot stand before this holy and perfect God. So, let's take the most "innocent" sin we can think of. Let's say someone wants to and DOES live a good life, yet does not want anything to do with Christianity. Remember, good in human terms is only relative to other humans... it still does not compare with God. No matter how peaceful and nice this person who lives this "good life" is... by not adhering to the life God called us to live so that we may have fellowship with Him (accepting Christ as our savior by dying in our place)... at the very core of this you have the rejection of God in your life. This person is saying I don't need Jesus Christ, I can make my own way to God. You see, there is really no sin that is just a "little" sin. It all has big issues at the core of it.

One can only be good according to HUMAN terms... we CANNOT be good enough to reach God on our own merit. That is the very reason Jesus Christ came. Because God loves man so much he made such a simple way to redeem them BACK to himself. John 3:16 - "For God SO LOVED the world that He gave His only Son, that who ever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

Well, let's look at it like this. Remember, by default humanity is born selfish and in sin. God had a plan, Jesus Christ...THE way THE truth and THE life, to redeem mankind back to himself, since sin of any kind cannot stand before this holy and perfect God. So, let's take the most "innocent" sin we can think of. Let's say someone wants to and DOES live a good life, yet does not want anything to do with Christianity. Remember, good in human terms is only relative to other humans...it still does not compare with God. No matter how peaceful and nice this person who lives this "good life" is...by not adhering to the life God called us to live so that we may have fellowship with Him (accepting Christ as our savior by dying in our place)...at the very core of this you have the rejection of God in your life. This person is saying I don't need Jesus Christ, I can make my own way to God. You see, there is really no sin that is just a "little" sin. It all has big issues at the core of it.

One can only be good according to HUMAN terms...we CANNOT be good enough to reach God on our own merit. That is the very reason Jesus Christ came. Because God loves man so much he made such a simple way to redeem them BACK to himself. John 3:16 - "For God SO LOVED the world that He gave His only Son, that who ever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life."


Hi hauntinghelper,

Three questions.

What if someone has never encountered Christianity?

Some practices are relative but does this mean that all practices are relative?

Is a person amoral if they don't know or care about the rules?


A person is ethical if he/she is aware of certain rules they must or should follow. Does this mean that anyone who disagrees or doesn't follow these rules is unethical?

Regards

Tut

Romans 2:12-16

12 When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God's written law. And the Jews, who do have God's law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it. 13 For merely listening to the law doesn't make us right with God. It is obeying the law that makes us right in his sight. 14 Even Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. 15 They demonstrate that God's law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right. 16 And this is the message I proclaim—that the day is coming when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge everyone's secret life.


God is a just judge. As you see people will be judged differently... according to how they lived according to His laws that ARE written on EVERY man's heart. It is a different situation altogether for someone living in a primitive part of the world who has never had the chance to hear the gospel vs. someone who does receive God's law and rejects it to serve his own ways. Not everybody will be judged the same.

Don't worry about other people... God can get through to anyone... don't use other people as an excuse not to come to terms with Him in your own life.

And to answer your last question... not knowing and not caring about the established moral law are two different things. As that above scripture states... everybody DOES have His law written on their hearts... so there really is no such thing as not knowing right from wrong. I hope you can understand how not caring is a big deal too.

...everybody DOES have His law written on their hearts...so there really is no such thing as not knowing right from wrong..What you miss is that my god, the Flying Spagetti Monster, has his law written into your heart, that's why you try to be good.

Please give us a break karma you don't even believe your own ethic. My God knows all sees all and at the appropriate moment rewards all, be in awe of this

please give us a break karma you don't even believe your own ethic. My God knows all sees all and at the appropriate moment rewards all, be in awe of thisThere are several gods that people believe in, don't expect all to share yours. I am in awe of none of it.

There are several gods that people believe in, don't expect all to share yours. I am in awe of none of it.

That's your problem no belief no reward

I'm already getting my reward - good family, good health, good friends - do you not have this as well?

I don't believe or care about eternal life if that's your planned rejoinder.

I'm already getting my reward - good family, good health, good friends - do you not have this as well?
I don't believe or care about eternal life if that's your planned rejoinder.

Of course I have those things how do you think I can waste my time here but looking forward there is more

of course I have those things how do you think I can waste my time here but looking forward there is moreAgreed.

It doesn't mean they exist.

Those aren't your reward... those are your lot in life. There is a difference.

It doesn't mean they exist.
Agreed, same with yours. :)

Those aren't your reward...those are your lot in life. There is a difference.What is this cryptic "reward" you refer to then?

I do think that living well, having a good upbringing and treating others (and myself) well have given me the rewards I mentioned.

Those aren't your reward...those are your lot in life. There is a difference.

'Lot in life'. You make that sound like a curse. I would call having a good family,good life (as the person sees it) an accomplishment. Something to be proud of, yes in fact a reward.

This thread has been highjacked so many times. Because I subscribe to this thread, I am bound and determined to read a new post every time one comes up. What I do object to is reading a page full of scripture in order to prove a point.

I never said it was a curse. It simply means where/how we are in this life.

First of all this thread is about the paranormal and different religious beliefs... this type of talk is GOING to come up in this conversation. You don't like it? Unsubscribe from this thread. If Southamerica doesn't enjoy where HIS thread is going... he has every right to say so.

If Southamerica doesn't enjoy where HIS thread is going...he has every right to say so.

My comment and my opinion are my right on AMHD. If you don't like it tough, don't comment. If Southamerica doesn't like my opinion he can state that himself. SA has every right to post whatever he wants, I didn't say he has not. You are twisting around my comment.

Ms tickle

Does anyone have anything else to add to this that might get us back on track? Southamerica, do you view this situation any differently now? I'm curious what your take on it is?

Just going to add something. I'm pretty sure Southamerica is female. :)

Let's not argue about Gods and whose is the best, there's no way anyone can win that argument because everything is based on faith, not fact.

The fact is, there are many different religions, and each religion thinks they're right. You can believe that your God is the only one, you can believe that He's the only way for salvation, but others have just as much right to believe that their God, or lack thereof, are right as well. So please, don't tell someone that they're not living their lives properly, or to stop believing what they believe as it will get them nowhere. That's not your call, and you have no right to tell someone that their beliefs aren't as valid as yours.

Ah geez, I just got called a female in another post. My mistake.

Ah geez, I just got called a female in another post. My mistake.

No, alty said she thinks SA is female

no, alty said she thinks SA is female
SA is female.

Just going to add something. I'm pretty sure Southamerica is female. :)

Let's not argue about Gods and whose is the best, there's no way anyone can win that argument because everything is based on faith, not fact.


Hi Altenweg,

In the ancient world it was easy to decide whose God was the best. If my country invaded and defeated your country then it stood to reason that my God was stronger than your God. However, it only remained true until some other country defeated me then our God was out of favour.

But seriously... I think there is one man who can come close to answering Southamerica's original question. That person being the author of the Holographic Universe. As I am not good at summarizing books I wasn't looking forward to explaining his ideas. The I came across this website. Michael Talbot explains his theory on screen.

The Secret Sun: Synchronicity and the Holographic Universe (UPDATED) (http://secretsun.blogspot.com/2010/03/synchroncity-and-holographic-universe.html)

The holographic model can account for just about all paranormal activity if, and it is a big if - the universe can be looked at in terms of a hologram. Naturally most scientists would reject any such idea and the whole idea could be dismissed as being total fantasy except that it has the backing of one of Einstein's associates David Bohm who later on became famous in the area of quantum physics .The other significant figure of the time was psychologist Karl Pribram. Talbot uses their ideas very constructively in his book.

If anyone has a spare half hour it is well worth the look and listen. Other than that the book is well written and not difficult to follow.


Regards


Tut

Oh, I know... I was just saying that misgendering seems to be going around or something.

Worth watching. Very interesting and at the very least a conversation piece. Thanks for the link.

Oh, I know... I was just saying that misgendering seems to be going around or something.

It happens all the time. Sometimes it's really hard to determine whether someone is a male or female just by their posts or username.

I've been called "he" so many times I finally decided to make it clear by my avatar. Even with my avatar I still get the occasional he. No biggie. I know I'm female, that's what counts. ;)

Worth watching. Very interesting and at the very least a conversation piece. Thanks for the link.


When I read the book about 10 years ago I though it was an interesting piece of science fiction. I mean, the universe being a hologram and that sort of stuff.

Apparently science fiction is again a poor cousin to reality. I read an article in a scientific journal or magazine somewhere that a scientist at FermiLab (a particle accelerator in the U.S) was intending to conduct some experiments to see if in fact the universe is a hologram. Mind boggling stuff indeed.

There exists the possibility that we are not as 3D or solid as we like to think we are. Those entities occupying the spiritual world (assuming there is one) would at least be aware of this.

Tut

Oh I have very little doubt that they are more aware of how universe is put together than we do.

Hello! I have been MIA the last couple days. My weekends are always busy :).

I know that bringing up religion AND ghosts in one question is bound to bring up a lot of discussion and tangents, and I'm okay with that. I do like reading about how different people view life/afterlife/God.

I've gathered that there isn't a lot in the folklore of the paranormal that would explain why a pious person would become possessed by a demon. It could be explained by a religious person's ability to believe in something unexplainable (e.g. God) versus an atheist/other who would find a more scientific explanation (psychology). It could be that a possessed religious person isn't genuine in their faith-and a demon would find a person with a professed opposition to Satan as a bigger target. Whatever is real and folklore, this thread has been interesting.

I would love to read more friendly conversation/debate about this and its tangents!

I am a female :-D

TUT, thanks for your link, I will look at it soon.

The paranormal world can be 'creatively' explained by the holographic model. I think this is what set Bohm apart from the other quantum physicists of the time. Bohm wanted to talk about particles AND waves while people such as Bohr want to talk about particles OR waves. Needless to say the two approaches lead off in different directions. Michael Talbot seems to have jumped on Bohm's interpretation and with the help of Pribram's explanation of the brain as a hologram come up with his excellent book. At least that is how I see it.

In his video interview Michael Talbot related some personal out of body experiences when he was young and I guess he (like anyone else) would want to make sense of this experience. A holographic explanation seems to allow for this type of explanation.

It is certainly possible to come up with a 'creative' explanation for the spiritual world using this model. I am not saying I agree with everything in the book but at least it is one of the few attempts to given a scientific explanation for the phenomenon.

A creative explanation for a holographic universe might take on this form.

Imagine a holographic plate with a large number of imagines lasered into its surface. As with any holographic plate depending on the angle you look at it will determine the image you see. Fiddling with the angles allows you to see different aspects of the image. Even more extreme fiddling will reveal different images.

The analogy is this. If the universe is a hologram then our minds create reality (what we seen on the holographic plate). However, this is because our minds are limited to the amount of 'fiddling' it can do. The majority of minds 'fiddle' within the same range of angles so to speak.

Naturally, this does not mean that the majority of other images don't exist. They are with us the whole time. We are unaware of them because we can't create the angles necessary to experience these images. This does not mean that a small minority of individuals are unable to do the necessary fiddling. Naturally,not everyone who is religious has this ability, but it might explain why some people seem sensitive to this type of phenomenon.

Of course, this is just speculation on my part We can never prove anything by analogy. Let's just call it my contribution to the debate.


Tut


Tut

Stigmata (the wounds of Christ) are supposed to be from God, not from a demon. It's a Catholic phenomenon (mostly).

Weren't the wounds of christ from the nails the romans put into his wrists and ankles? Are you talking about stigmata ? Christ's wounds weren't stigmata. It isn't a catholic phenom, it is anglican and protestant to name a few.

Tick

The paranormal world can be 'creatively'


Of course, this is just speculation on my part We can never prove anything by analogy. Let's just call it my contribution to the debate.


Tut


Tut


Tut, while I do appreciate your research, this isn't a debate.

Tick

I don't think she was referring to Christ's actual wounds... I think she was referring to the "spiritual recreation" of them. While everyone is aware of this... I think only the Catholic church accepts it as divine... at least I've only heard of it this way. I certainly don't buy into to.

tut, while i do appreciate your research, this isnt a debate.

tick

Woops... sorry... discussion.

Tut

Comment by HH
I don't think she was referring to Christ's actual wounds...I think she was referring to the "spiritual recreation" of them. While everyone is aware of this...I think only the Catholic church accepts it as divine...at least I've only heard of it this way. I certainly don't buy into to.

Yes, I meant the phenomenon experienced by (usually) Catholics -- St. Francis of Assisi and Padre Pio, for example (Stigmata - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stigmata)).

I did a college paper on stigmata. :)

In your research did you find any examples outside of Catholicism? I'm curious.

In your research did you find any examples outside of Catholicism? I'm curious.
Muhammad (Islam) was supposed to have experienced stigmata. For my paper, I had identified only one non-Catholic man who happened to be an atheist, but cannot remember his name. Will PM you if I think of it.

Well, and apparently Muhammad too. I've always been interested in it, I have just not taken the time to study this phenomena.

Here is several articles on it.

Stigmata (http://theviewspaper.net/stigmata/)

Stigmata ASSAP (http://www.assap.org/newsite/articles/Stigmata.html)

http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/stigmata.aspx

Many mention the catholic connection but they don't mention the religion of the person experiencing it. They only make mention of their deep faith.

Interesting topic. I've always been interested in stigmata, but like HH, I've never taken the time to study it. I have seen a few movies that involved this, and they were very interesting. Of course they're films, so not at all accurate, still, that's when I became interested.

Thanks for the links Cdad. That's your new nickname, because I feel really weird calling you dad, just doesn't seem right. ;)

The paranormal world can be 'creatively' explained by the holographic model.
That's really interesting. I remember watching a special about paranormal phenomena on Discovery and a skeptic was saying something similar to that. Our minds are programmed to see certain things-like a face-and be able to pick it out of a crowd. We see faces in clouds and rocks, for example, all the time. So it's reasonable to assume that the faces we see in shadows or reflections are just a part of the "hologram" effect. (I realize that I'm reinterpreting and completely simplifying the hologram effect that you mentioned, Tut :))

Additionally, the voices that we hear in the wind or in the pipes could be our brains pre-programmed tendencies, rather than actual voices.


Stigmata-whether a gift from God or another spirit/being-is a little less easy to write off (unless it's self-inflicted). Wondergirl, that must have been an extremely interesting paper... do you still have a copy? I would love to read it!

I believe I referred to this discussion as a debate in error as well. Calling it a discussion is much more accurate.

Okay I just listened to the interview (I couldn't watch, I was arranging a mailmerge in excel!). Like many things of this nature, it made my brain feel a little fuzzy. I get the same way with psycholinguistics.

I think I can reasonably think about the universe as a hologram-but like you said only as an analogy to explain why humans experience things differently. The idea that everything is interconnected in a pool of energy is a little lost on me, and it's not like I haven't heard concepts like this many times before. Would anyone with a more scientific mind care to "dumb" it down for me?

Stigmata-whether a gift from God or another spirit/being-is a little less easy to write off (unless it's self-inflicted). Wondergirl, that must have been an extremely interesting paper...do you still have a copy? I would love to read it!
I wrote it about 350 years ago. If I still have it, it's buried in a box somewhere in my basement. I remember my conclusion had been that the stigmata were usually of emotional origins. I had no explanation for the lone non-religious stigmatic.

Okay I just listened to the interview (I couldn't watch, I was arranging a mailmerge in excel!). Like many things of this nature, it made my brain feel a little fuzzy. I get the same way with psycholinguistics.

I think I can reasonably think about the universe as a hologram-but like you said only as an analogy to explain why humans experience things differently. The idea that everything is interconnected in a pool of energy is a little lost on me, and it's not like I haven't heard concepts like this many times before. Would anyone with a more scientific mind care to "dumb" it down for me?

What's being said is that our programing (brian) is looking at the world in a certain way. Our own reality is an individual concept. So lets look at the hologram for a minute. When you look at it you can see an image within. When you turn it you see a different image. The reality is that all images are there and displayed at one time. The only difference is the angle that it is viewed from. That being said the world looks different through a prisim. And as our minds expand there can be this same effect. The ability to see more then one angle at a time. So it would allow your mind to view the other angles in relation to your own. In context of paranormal its called a doorway (or gateway). So we have reality (our concept) and our own view of the world around us. Everything is there its just a matter of interacting with it (seeing from a different angle). Then the observation is clear but the line from understanding has been crossed (para-normal).

Whats being said is that our programing (brian) is looking at the world in a certain way. Our own reality is an individual concept. So lets look at the hologram for a minute. When you look at it you can see an image within. When you turn it you see a different image. The reality is that all images are there and displayed at one time. The only difference is the angle that it is viewed from. That being said the world looks different through a prisim. And as our minds expand there can be this same effect. The ability to see more then one angle at a time. So it would allow your mind to view the other angles in relation to your own. In context of paranormal its called a doorway (or gateway). So we have reality (our concept) and our own view of the world around us. Everything is there its just a matter of interacting with it (seeing from a different angle). Then the observation is clear but the line from understanding has been crossed (para-normal).


Hi CD,

I think this is a good summary of how the brain works like a hologram. In other words, I understand what is being said in a similar way to you.


In order to answer Southamerica's question in relation to the so-call interconnected pool of energy we would need to draw on the holographic analogy. That is to say,by looking at the universe as something like a hologram.

What I know about holograms can be written on the back of a postage stamp, but the important thing is that people like Talbot have a good understand of how such things work so we are able to take advantage of their knowledge.

The picture we seen on a hologram is nothing but a well founded illusion. A picture of a cat is nothing more than a series of interference or wave patterns crossing over each other. Imagine a pond as a holographic plate and a handful of pebbles represents some aspect of a cat that is being 'photographed' on the plate from various perspectives. When we throw a handful of pebbles into a pond. Ripples radiate out from each pebble. Eventually all of the ripples will cross-over each other creating what is know as an interference pattern.

Even though a hologram of a cat seems very life like in terms of it being in 3D it is in fact a well founded illusion. What we actually have on the holographic plate is not a 3D cat but a series of interference or wave like patterns. It is only when we look at the plate in a certain way the cat appears.

If a holographic plate had the property of glass what would happen if we dropped it? The answer being it would shatter into many pieces. But, what if we wanted to restore the picture of our cat. We could attempt to glue all the pieces back together again. However, this hard work is not necessary.All we have to do is pick up one of the pieces ( any piece we like) and examine it.What we see on the fragment is the preserved image of the cat. Exactly the same as the original image.

What does this tell us about the universe as a hologram? It probably tells us the view that everything being separated by space is an illusion. I am no more separated from you as we are separated from anyone else on this planet. There is also the illusion we are actually solid objects . We can view ourselves as a vibrating wave like pool of energy( to incorporate your question).Separation and solidity is an is an illusion. Talbot uses the quote by the poet William Blake (I think it was Blake). "The universe is contained in a grain of sand"

The catch phrase could be, ' I think therefore I create reality'. It would seems that when it comes the paranormal some people can create rather surprising 'realities'.

I am not saying I agree with Talbot but this is how this is how I understand him. Some people may disagree or come up with a different understanding. If anyone can help my understanding of this then please do so. I am definitely not an expert when it comes to holograms.

Tut

Thank you both for your explanations so much! It's a comfort to me to know that I actually was able to interpret this concept on my own (califdado-Your explanation was pretty much exactly what I had been thinking).

TUT-your description of the hologram using ripples completely made sense to me. That was awesome.

And it all comes down to this: People with the capacity to have faith in a God have the capacity to see something as paranormal... because that's the angle that they see things from.

Dumbed down, I know... but at least it makes sense to me.

Lol your all silly :P IF any of you people have actually read the bible and understood it, which is not easy, Then you should know the reason that haunting and demonic occurrences happen mostly to the religious is not because they can or want to see it... everyone can see the paranormal... but to believe is something completely different. Ill shorten this up a bit for all of you lol...

In the beginning after Lord Jehovah created man... an angel named lucifer decided he can rule better than God, some of the angels agreed and for this they were cast down to earth for eternity in hell. People usually blame God for suffering and injustice... but it clearly stated in the bible(1 John 5:19) that this world is lying in the power of the wicked one... the real ruler of earth is satan. Now, picture this, God is a teacher and has a classroom full of children when one naughty child stood up and said I can teach this class better than you, your way is wrong. What then can the teacher do? If he throws out whoever claims he is wrong it is proving to the other students he is afraid of being wrong, but suppose the teacher asks the rebel to show the class how he wold solve the problem. Because millions of angels were watching what God would do... so like a teacher would do to show the class he is wrong is to let him do it his way and be proved wrong in front of all to see. Its like what God did... He allowed satan to show how he would rule mankind and has also allowed humans to live under satans guidance.

Now then, now you know the true power that rules over us on earth and why God has allowed this. Luifer and his followers had bacome angry and full of hate for mankind so they try anything they can to turn us from the Lord Jehovah. Because of their infinite hatred for us they turned into creatures from mans nightmares to use against us. There are six kinds of devils... all around us.
The first is the fiery, because they dwell in the upper air and have no dealings with men until the Day of Judgement.
The second is aerial because they live in the air around us. With Gods permission these demons can agitate the air for storms and tempests all for the destruction of man.
The third is terrestrial, and these were definatley cast from heaven to earth for their sins. Some live in the woods and lay snares for hunters, some lay in fields and lead night travelers astray, while others delight in living secretly amongst us.
The fourth is the aqueous, because these dwell in lakes and oceans, they are full of anger, turbulent, unquiet and deceitfull.They raise storms at sea and sink ships. When such devils appear they are usually in the form of a woman for they live in moist places and lead an easier life.
The fifth is subterranean for these live in caves and mines of mountains. They have a very mean disposition and usually go after those who work in pits or mines for treasure. They cause earthquakes and fires and winds and they can shake the very foundation of your house. They are always ready to do harm.
The sixth is the worst and pray you never meet a heliophobic. They detest the light and cannot assume a bodily form until the sun has gone. These devils are beyond human comprehension because they are dark within, shaken with icy passions, restless, perturbed, malicious and when they meet men at night they oppress them violently. Often with the Lords permission often kill men with a breath or touch. These devils have no dealings with witches and they can't be kept at bay by charms for they shun the very sound of our voices and the light we live for.
Now, the devils mark or stigmata was something very common in the persecution of witches during their trials. It is said that the distinction between a devils mark or a witches mark was that the devils mark resembled a scar. Birthmark or tattoo whereas the witches were often scabs or protuberence on the body which their familiars, ( small low rank demon given by satan to witches to advise the witch and make her perform small malicious errands including murder), suck out their blood. It was said that to prove stigmatas were devil marks given to witches, they shaved the so called witch to find any hidden marks, when the mark was found and pricked with a needle, if there was no blood and they couldn't feel it it was proven witchery. Lol silly people. There was one man who saved everyonoe from such trials. He proved the man wrong by saying that the reason there is no blood and its insensitive is because the person is laid down naked outside and pulled a towel over her face. Bc of her extreme fright and shame all her blood contracted into one part of her body. The man told her to stand and put on clothes. He then pricked her in the same spot with the mark and it bled. A stigmata from the devil is more... elegant. His mark was often found on an accused persons body for only a short duration of time and innocent people with birthmarks or moles were unjustly punished.

As for your comment that only in Jesus name or Christs, Allah, etc. is the only one with the divine power to rid demonic presences is absolutely wrong. Jesus is the son of Jehovah, but because Jehovah sent a perfect being into earth to take away sins, Jesus Christ is like Adam in the garden of eden. He gave his life for our sins therefore his name has no power over demons. The ONLY one who has the power to control the evil is Lord Jehovah, for he is the creator. Only He has to power to expel any evil entity in your life. As for the Virgin Marry, it is the same thing, Jesus and Mary were humans... given powers from God yes but still human. They live in heaven with Him assuredly but only Jehovah God has the true power to rid evil spirits as they still have to listen to Him out of fear and respect.

Lol your all silly :P IF any of you people have actually read the bible and understood it, which is not easy, Then you should know the



Kt, we try not to disparage the opinions of others here. We respect their opinion. Any member who contributed to this thread are respected members and their thoughts on any given subject are pretty well considered as far as I am concerned.

Some have a completely scientific approach to the paranormal. I for one am a fence sitter with my own experiences having nothing to do with any religion; however, we do have a couple if wiccans here I believe and I have never heard their theories about the paranormal. It would be interesting indeed.

Your approach is a biblical one, that's good, you stick to it; in fact I did enjoy your explanation.

Please be respectful.

Tick

Kt - I did enjoy reading your approach to the paranormal. I thought you did a good job explaining your beliefs and your point. I have actually heard this approach before (some aspects of it, at least).

I just want to say on a completely different note that your posts in the future (I do hope you stick around) will be much better received if you don't insert "you silly people" as you did in this post. As that was your first line, it immediately put me on the defense and I was expecting something far worse than what you wrote. Just some advice for how to best give answers around these parts.

Thanks again for your contribution.

The ONLY one who has the power to control the evil is Lord Jehovah
Welcome to the site. Are you a Witness?

Lol your all silly :P IF any of you people have actually read the bible and understood it,.

You say the Bible is difficult to understand and you have made it obvious you fail to understand, particularly as to who Jesus is. All of these demons you enumerate are, because of Jesus Christ, under our power and Satan is no longer the master. The only power he has is that which we give him. So the reality is I have no need to fear any demon

I apologize to everyone who took my silly meaning seriously :P I was just trying to lighten the mood a little I meant no disrespect to anyone's beleifs... they are always entitled to what they believe right or wrong it doesn't matter. I am not a witness but I have been speaking to those who are and it was THEY who said Jesus Christ has no more power than we do because that was his sacrifice. " God alone is Almighty therefore he has ne equal"( Genesis 17:1) and that includes his Son Jesus who was begotten whereas God has no beginning and no end. Think back to the garden of eden when satan corrupted adam and eve into disobeying God, the punishment was that the gift of life was taken away and now we dwell in sin and death. Gods ransom for such deeds had to be something in equal portion to what adam did. Adam was a perfect creature before he sinned, therefore only another perfect creature can save us, thus he sent his Son Jesus, who went willingly from his heavenly home, to earth to become human and save us through his life until his death. In a sense Jesus willingly stepped into Adams role and saved us by sacrificing himself, a perfect being, and paid the price of our sins. So when you say Jesus still has power, its is only very little compared to Jehovah God. Satan always holds us in sway, that is why the world is in strife, lucifer is the true ruler of this world until the day of judgement, where our souls are weighted in the balance of good and evil.

We will not attack and name on on here, I have deleted and cleaned up some posts.

One persons christian beliefs are to be accepted without name calling, you may post your beliefs as to what you believe but not in a manner attacking other posters

We will not attack and name on on here, I have deleted and cleaned up some posts.

One persons christian beliefs are to be accepted without name calling, you may post your beliefs as to what you believe but not in a manner attacking other posters

So why delete the truth and leave the rubbish behind?