Log in

View Full Version : The new era of civility


speechlesstx
Feb 24, 2011, 11:04 AM
After the Tucson tragedy, President Obama urged a "new era of civility (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/13/us/13obama.html)." He called on us to "pause for a moment and make sure that we are talking with each other in a way that heals, not a way that wounds.” I hope he follows his own advice.


Donna Brazile (http://blog.cagle.com/2011/01/the-tragic-politics-of-intolerance/) apologized for "how my words, the vitriol and the anger I often feel toward those who might have disagreements, may have contributed to the decline in civility and public discourse."

Is this (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/choice-wisconsin-556077-3.html#post2716141) the new era of civility, or is it found in what Rep. Michael Capuano (D-Mass.) said on Tuesday? Capuano said, "Every once and awhile you need to get out on the streets and get a little bloody when necessary (http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/145627-dem-lawmaker-on-labor-protests-get-a-little-bloody-when-necessary)."

Perhaps it's in union thugs attacking 5' 1" women (http://www.redstate.com/tabithahale/2011/02/23/union-thuggery-descends-on-freedomworks/)?

I guess he was just taking Capuano's remarks to heart. Where is this new era of civility?

smoothy
Feb 24, 2011, 11:27 AM
Obama was demanding "Civility" from everyone but Democrats... they of course are encouraged to be as rude, threatening or just plain ignorant as they want to be.

speechlesstx
Feb 24, 2011, 12:44 PM
And the civility just keeps coming. At AFSCME’s “solidarity” rally in Providence, RI another union thug attacked a cameraman (http://michellemalkin.com/2011/02/24/video-rhode-island-union-supporter-to-cameraman-ill-fk-you-in-the-***-you-faggot/), and threatened if he didn't leave, “I’ll f**k you in the a$$, you faggot!”

Now that wasn't very nice.

excon
Feb 24, 2011, 04:38 PM
Hello Steve:

Please don't destroy the labor movement. Please stop brainwashing our senators. Please stop lying about health care. Please stop being so damn wrong.

Feel better?

excon

speechlesstx
Feb 25, 2011, 07:46 AM
Sorry, saying please is no better than smiling while calling me a racist.

But, what labor movement? There is no labor movement and the left is lying through their teeth about what's going on in Wisconsin. No one is trying to bust PRIVATE sector unions. Public employee unions are another thing entirely, their main reason for existence was political, not saving workers from dangerous mining conditions. They had it pretty good already, and since my tax dollars pay their salary I don't particularly like that unions can negotiate how to spend my money.

excon
Feb 25, 2011, 08:07 AM
Hello again, Steve:

Couple things. Obama called for civility. Apparently, you think that gives YOU license to hurl invectives, free of any response... Dude!

I'm not a fan of public service unions... And, I'd be right there with you, calling for them to sacrifice - IF you hadn't just handed the richest of the rich amongst us, a humongous tax cut... No sacrifice for them.

Our economic problems are NOT the garbage collectors fault... It's NOT the cop on the beats fault. It's NOT the teachers fault. Nope, it isn't. As long as the rich got theirs, why shouldn't the crossing guard get his?

excon

smoothy
Feb 25, 2011, 08:32 AM
You are right OBAMA called for it... and none of the Democrats are showing much of it... ( and Obama certainly isn't practicing what he preaches), yet Republicans are expected to, alone... all by themselves..

Part of Wisconsins problems besides years of over generous handouts while the Democrats were in control is the high taxes that state has... thats driving business to move to other lower taxed states just to have a chance at being competitive.

Its common practice for states to offer incintives to get businesses to move to a state or convince them to not leave. So its not uncommon at all to give businesses a break when they need it. THe alternative is they pack up and move a thousand miles away or more... if they don't just close up shop altogether.

How about the 38% of the population that's not only not paying their share of the taxes... but getting money back they neve paid in taxes in the first place. Put a hault to that and you will get far more money than a handful of tax breaks to some businesses.

Besides.. do you think ANY business actually pays its taxes in the classic sense... they just jack up the prices and "pass it on" to their customers who end up paying it because they can't "pass it on" to anyone else.

Important factors and perspectives to keep in mind.

speechlesstx
Feb 25, 2011, 08:41 AM
You say invective, I'm just calling them on their lies.


Hitler "abolished unions and that's what" Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker is "doing today." -Wisconsin state Sen. Lena Taylor
(http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/national/article1153285.ece)

And, look, what we're talking about is that the governor has cherry-picked what public workers he will subject to this so-called removal of their collective bargaining rights.The firefighters, the policemen and others who supported him in his election bid, well, guess what? They don't have to worry about their collective bargaining rights." -Donna Brazile

Neither do those who opposed him.


"Despite what you may have heard about Wisconsin’s finances, the state is on track to have a budget surplus this year. I am not kidding." -Rachel Maddow


"People who earn $30,000, $40,000, $50,000 a year might have 20 percent of their income just disappear overnight." -Ed Schultz

And my favorite, Gov. Walker is going to call out the National Guard on is people...


Governor Scott Walker is trying to ram through cuts to the health care and retirement benefits of Wisconsin nurses and teachers -- and take away their right to negotiate for decent benefits.

If that weren't shameful enough, Walker has threatened to call out the National Guard if workers protest against these cuts!

The Wisconsin State Senate is voting on Walker's plan this week. Can you call your State Senator and tell them to vote NO? Click here for the number and a script.

(After you've called, click here to tell us what you think about Gov. Walker's budget cuts and threats. We'll share these comments with the media -- and possibly use them in ads -- to help defeat this radical proposal.)

Walker’s willingness to pit the Wisconsin National Guard for a fight against nurses, teachers, and other public employees puts him firmly on the wrong side of history.

The idea that a governor can use the military to impose his personal, political will on the people he governs is a primitive relic of the past – one that resulted in almost a century of bloodshed in this country. The last time military force was used against workers was during the Memphis sanitation strike in 1968, just before Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.’s assassination. It must not be repeated again. -Progressive Change Campaign Committee (http://media.journalinteractive.com/documents/Pressuring+Senate+to+oppose+Walker....htm)

Lies, lies and fear mongering.

excon
Feb 25, 2011, 09:08 AM
And my favorite, Gov. Walker is going to call out the National Guard on is people....Hello again, Steve:

He DID send the cops to the homes of the Democrats... What was the cop going to do? Arrest the congressmen for not coming to work?? THAT, in and of itself, shows me that the governor doesn't understand the law.

excon

PS> I can't argue with you about what somebody else said. Will it make you feel better if I admit that all lefty's aren't as wonderful as me? Ok, they aren't.

speechlesstx
Feb 25, 2011, 09:45 AM
HE did no such thing, the Republican head of the Senate (http://www.twincities.com/news/ci_17477423?source=rss) sent state troopers in hopes of convincing them to return to perform their elected duties. At least Obama voted present, these guys are plain cowards.

Look, I have no problem with politics getting a little rough. I think it's fun and makes it interesting. I have a problem with BOTH sides getting ridiculous, and I have a HUGE problem with left-wingers hypocrisy on civility. I'm not going to be preached to on civility by people that have none.

excon
Feb 25, 2011, 09:52 AM
HE did no such thing, the Republican head of the Senate (http://www.twincities.com/news/ci_17477423?source=rss) sent state troopers in hopes of convincing them to return to perform their elected duties. Hello again, Steve:

Ok, it was the other right winger... But the cop was sent there to convince?? A cop - with a GUN on his belt. A COP!! Sending a cop with a GUN on his side, means only ONE thing to me... Not to you, though. Do you also have a pair of the standard right wing blinders?? Dude!

excon

speechlesstx
Feb 25, 2011, 10:10 AM
Hello again, Steve:

Ok, it was the other right winger... But the cop was sent there to convince??? A cop - with a GUN on his belt. A COP!!! Sending a cop with a GUN on his side, means only ONE thing to me... Not to you, though. Do you also have a pair of the standard right wing blinders??? Dude!


Dude, a cop with a gun on his belt usually means one thing to me, too. My brother is taking a break for dinner.

tomder55
Feb 26, 2011, 03:29 AM
And the civility just keeps coming. At AFSCME’s “solidarity” rally in Providence, RI another union thug attacked a cameraman (http://michellemalkin.com/2011/02/24/video-rhode-island-union-supporter-to-cameraman-ill-fk-you-in-the-***-you-faggot/), and threatened if he didn't leave, “I’ll f**k you in the a$$, you faggot!”

Now that wasn't very nice.

Where are all the gay activist bloggers who are always weighing in on anti-gay rhetoric, threats and hate speech against gays?

paraclete
Feb 26, 2011, 03:40 PM
Where are all the gay activist bloggers who are always weighing in on anti-gay rhetoric, threats and hate speech against gays?

That is so yesterday don't you find Tom?

cdad
Feb 26, 2011, 06:23 PM
That is so yesterday don't you find Tom?

Actuslly it seems commonplace in the youth of today at least here in the U.S. to use "gay" as a negative expression.

paraclete
Feb 27, 2011, 02:38 PM
Actuslly it seems commonplace in the youth of today atleast here in the U.S. to use "gay" as a negative expression.

In today's connotations I wouldn't say it was positive

smearcase
Feb 27, 2011, 06:27 PM
Ex,
Don't forget O. offset the tax break for the rich with the tax increase on the poor.
tax.com: Obama and the GOP: United Against the Working Poor (http://www.tax.com/taxcom/taxblog.nsf/Permalink/UBEN-8E3J74?OpenDocument)
What a guy!
Has he found those comfy shoes yet?
Remember this guy--see Earl Butz at wik. I won't link it-it's xrated and involves shoes.

speechlesstx
Feb 28, 2011, 08:58 AM
Where are all the gay activist bloggers who are always weighing in on anti-gay rhetoric, threats and hate speech against gays?

I was wondering if anyone was going to mention that. They're all hanging out with the feminists that didn't get upset over Jerry Brown and NOW calling Meg Whitman a whore.

smoothy
Feb 28, 2011, 09:01 AM
I guess "the new civility" means never having to answer for hipocracy... or anything else. As long as you are a card carrying lefty.

excon
Feb 28, 2011, 09:22 AM
Hello again, smoothy:

Well, I'm just goddamned glad I didn't subscribe to this new era, so you can't accuse me. I LOVE name calling, and I ain't going to stop.

excon

smoothy
Feb 28, 2011, 10:01 AM
It appears nobody else did either... or at least not more than a handfull scattered across the country. Assuming anyone is able to locate any to prove that ANYONE has.

More proof that the flocks of Obamies are abandoning the Cult of Obama daily.

About the only loyal followers that believe every word the man says appears to be the drive by media these days. I won't defame the word Journalists... because none of them act like journalists... because they are in reality Propagandists.

speechlesstx
Feb 28, 2011, 10:07 AM
Well, I'm just goddamned glad I didn't subscribe to this new era, so you can't accuse me. I LOVE name calling, and I ain't gonna stop.

You can say that word here but not Cheney's first name? I love some good name calling, too. I'm not going to pretend to subscribe to some to new era of civility either... I'm not a hypocrite like those damned left-wingers. :D

tomder55
Mar 10, 2011, 05:18 PM
This is a no troll zone

speechlesstx
Mar 14, 2011, 06:52 AM
Not only have at least 18 Wisconsin Senators received death threats (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ac/20110313/us_ac/8054678_violent_threats_against_wisconsin_republic ans_increase), Time Magazine apparently feels violent political imagery is fine in this "new era of civility."

Wisconsin's Governor Wins But Is He Still Dead Man Walker? (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2058601,00.html#ixzz1Ga7VHiaK)

Apparently the new era of civility is just like the old one...

excon
Mar 14, 2011, 07:08 AM
Apparently the new era of civility is just like the old one...Hello again, Steve:

It is. You can't make people nice just because you want them to be nice. But, I'm perplexed. You don't think you have a corner on nice, do you??

Bwa, ha ha ha...

excon

speechlesstx
Mar 14, 2011, 07:21 AM
But, I'm perplexed. You don't think you have a corner on nice, do you???

Nothing to laugh at, I enjoy getting into the rhetorical fight. No one has a corner on nice, but I'm damned tired of the liberal media and good progressives everywhere posing as moralists and preaching down their noses at me to play nice while ignoring their own thuggish behavior.

excon
Mar 14, 2011, 07:54 AM
preaching down their noses at me to play nice while ignoring their own thuggish behavior.Hello again, Steve:

I don't know, Steve. It sounds like YOU'RE the one preaching and acting all righteous when you call THESE guys thugs, and give a pass to the Tea Party for acting the way they did at the town hall's during the health care debate.

Face it. We're ALL a$$holes.

excon

speechlesstx
Mar 14, 2011, 09:54 AM
I don't know, Steve. It sounds like YOU'RE the one preaching and acting all righteous when you call THESE guys thugs

Um, admitting I don't always play nice is acting righteous? Funny world you live in.


and give a pass to the Tea Party for acting the way they did at the town hall's during the health care debate.

What pass did I give?


Face it. We're ALL a$$holes.

No, I call a spade a spade even when I'm the spade. That's the difference between me and the thugs on the left, I admit my faults, they don't believe they have any.

P.S. This isn't about me.

speechlesstx
Dec 11, 2012, 12:46 PM
Time for a civility update. Wisconsin union workers showed their civil side by tearing down an AFP tent with women and children inside (probably some of the 26,000 Michigan students out of school because teachers refuse to teach today)..

GtbWbw66KrI

Good thing they aren't like that awful Tea Party.

c2tKIBlTC6c

speechlesstx
Dec 11, 2012, 03:35 PM
Steven Crowder got the full union treatment today in Michigan as well... punched 4 times and yanked back by his collar to get some more abuse.

u_F3oev06i0

He probably deserved it though right? I have some close friends going to Michigan for Christmas, maybe they should reconsider considering the coming civil war Jimmy Hoffa apparently intends to wage (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/12/11/hoffa-predicts-civil-war-in-michigan/).


“This is just the first round of a battle that’s going to divide this state. We’re going to have a civil war,” Hoffa said on CNN’s “Newsroom.”

Surely union thugs don't own guns do they?

NeedKarma
Dec 11, 2012, 03:44 PM
Americans are crazy.

speechlesstx
Dec 11, 2012, 03:46 PM
Americans are crazy.

Nice to see you joining in the new era of civility.

paraclete
Dec 11, 2012, 03:54 PM
No, I agree with Karma, there is much evidence to support the theory

NeedKarma
Dec 11, 2012, 03:58 PM
Every single day on this forum there are multiple postings about the stupid, mean-spirited things that americans do to each other. Apparently there is an endless supply of material. No other citizens of any other country do that here. The place must be a cesspool.

paraclete
Dec 11, 2012, 04:02 PM
I would agree Karma that they seem to have a strange approach to problem solving, everything must be wrapped in rhetoric and immersed in political correctness

cdad
Dec 11, 2012, 04:06 PM
Every single day on this forum there are multiple postings about the stupid, mean-spirited things that americans do to each other. Apparently there is an endless supply of material. No other citizens of any other country do that here. The place must be a cesspool.

Im guessing you have bnever heard of the rest of the world including the entire middle east ?

NeedKarma
Dec 11, 2012, 04:08 PM
I'm talking about the postings in Current Events on this website.

cdad
Dec 11, 2012, 04:14 PM
I'm talking about the postings in Current Events on this website.

I understand. And being that most of us are from one country or another it doesn't represent the real world. Is america going crazy.. yes. So are many other countries. For us it is a matter of trying to make everyone happy. It never works and never will work.

Even in your home country there are problems of many flavors. Im not sure of the true root of it or if its just "our" world adjusting to technology. It seems anyone with an opinion can post everything about nothing. And too many are getting upset. Who knows where its all going to lead.

NeedKarma
Dec 11, 2012, 05:08 PM
Nah, I think it's just a few that are full of hate and have access to a keyboard and the internet.

paraclete
Dec 11, 2012, 05:35 PM
Even in your home country there are problems of many flavors. Im not sure of the true root of it or if its just "our" world adjusting to technology. It seems anyone with an opinion can post everything about nothing. And too many are getting upset. Who knows where its all going to lead.

An absolute reflection of this board and the world in general. The Muslims are revolting, well they are revolting anyway, The North Koreans are testing rockets, a falorn hope they might ever reach the USA, the Iranians are twisting the tail on the tiger, the americans are obscessed with jumping or falling off the cliff, the nutcases are obscessed with 12.21.12 forgetting the importance of 12.12.12, Are there problems in my country, it seems no one wants to talk about those, even if they have the drama of events in other places

speechlesstx
Dec 12, 2012, 07:38 AM
I'm talking about the postings in Current Events on this website.

By all means, let's talk about Canada for a while.

Border officials tell travellers to avoid Windsor crossing (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/story/2012/12/12/wdr-cbsa-name-tag-protest.html)
Front-line unionized workers are refusing to work at the Ambassador Bridge in protest of name tags

Posted notices about disciplined doctors leave public confused (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2012/12/11/toronto-ontario-doctors-signs-do-no-harm.html)


Ontario doctors disciplined for the sexual abuse of patients are often required to adhere to conditions when they return to their practice following a suspension.

Among such measures, doctors can be ordered to post a notice about the conditions imposed upon their practice, though a CBC News Toronto investigation has found that some of the signs found in doctors’ offices around the city are not necessarily clearly displayed or clear to the public.

One Toronto gynecologist, Joseph Siu-Kan Lee, was disciplined by the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario, after complaints from a female patient.

The patient alleged that Lee "touched her breasts in a non-medical manner," commented on them and subsequently grabbed and licked one of them.

She alleged that the doctor also suggested that her husband should perform oral sex on her and proceeded to put his face near her genitals and make “licking sounds."


Ikea monkey saga raises questions over exotic pet laws (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/12/11/ikea-monkey-exotic-pet-laws.html)


The saga of Darwin, the young monkey found wandering outside a Toronto Ikea store, is leading to calls by animal protection groups for stronger laws on exotic pets.

Befuddled shoppers spotted the tiny macaque, clad in a shearling coat and diaper, in the parking lot outside the North York Ikea on Sunday, after he escaped his owner’s vehicle.


Shots fired outside B.C. Ikea (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/12/11/bc-shots-fired-ikea.html)

Parents fight sex offender's return to teaching (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2012/12/11/ns-teacher-new-germany.html)

Bold thieves empty corn silos at Quebec farm (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2012/12/11/corn-theft-quebec.html)

Canada could be next for right-to-work legislation, opposition parties warn (http://news.yahoo.com/canada-could-next-legislation-opposition-parties-warn-213725373.html)

Evidence suggests election robocalls were targeted, court hears (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/12/11/pol-elections-calls-court-case-council-canadians.html)

3 former Quebec provincial police brass under investigation (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2012/12/12/montreal-police-investigation.html)

Who's looking out for Tim Hortons' temporary foreign workers? (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/12/11/f-temporary-foreign-worker-program-tim-hortons-canada.html)


Erik Flores came to Canada full of optimism that his new job at a Tim Hortons franchise near Regina would open doors to a "beautiful life."

Instead, the 21-year-old from Mexico says he found himself walking to work in the snow and living in a basement with five other Mexican men.

Teachers’ dispute: Toronto District School Board will close schools if ETFO goes on strike (http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1300950--teachers-dispute-toronto-district-school-board-will-close-schools-if-etfo-goes-on-strike)

Anti-native racism common in Toronto health care (http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/1300797--anti-native-racism-common-in-toronto-health-care)


It’s not unusual for Dr. Chandrakant Shah to have patients come to him in tears.

“They tell me that they’ve been stereotyped and discriminated against,” he said.

Shah, who has worked in health care among native people for 45 years and is the staff physician for Anishnawbe Health Toronto, a community health care centre. He said racism against First Nations people in Toronto’s health-care system is far too common.

400 urine-stained library books destroyed in Leamington (http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1300641--400-urine-stained-library-books-destroyed-in-leamington)

Yep, things are much more normal in Canada.

TUT317
Dec 12, 2012, 01:45 PM
Well I guess there is normal and there is normal. But the thing I want to know is why everything is couched in terms of 'war'. There is a war on this and a war on that. Even Tom's signature quote gets in on the act.

paraclete
Dec 12, 2012, 03:18 PM
Its more fun Tut are you going to sign of to something that is just a fight, no sense of the dramatic, you see, and after all all the actors among the poli's have to think they are really doing something, so they will have a war and throw resources at a problem. I wonder if they have won their wars
War on Terror,
War on Drugs,
War on Poverty

speechlesstx
Dec 12, 2012, 03:21 PM
When your president wants voters to exact "revenge" what do you expect?

paraclete
Dec 12, 2012, 03:35 PM
I expect a targeted response, not a scattergun approach. Unfortunately your country is the land of the vigilante. Look I know 9/11 was difficult to deal with, who was the enemy, an attack from without is one thing, an attack from within something very different. In those moments as we watched the towers burn we were looking at the start of WWIII. The terrorists had succeeded however briefly. The war goes on, we focus on Afghanistan but the war is a war against jihadistan, against islamists, it is a culture war

TUT317
Dec 13, 2012, 02:34 AM
When your president wants voters to exact "revenge" what do you expect?

I understand that side of the argument. However I am just wondering what Tom's excuse is. But I guess I should ask him.

Tut

paraclete
Dec 13, 2012, 03:37 AM
Yes Tom why do you want revenge

NeedKarma
Dec 13, 2012, 03:46 AM
Yes Tom why do you want revengeIt's the christian thing to do don't you know.

paraclete
Dec 13, 2012, 04:43 AM
None of us are perfect Karma, that's why we are Christians, but not even you are perfect. You see someone asked me if I was God once and I had to admit I was not

NeedKarma
Dec 13, 2012, 05:20 AM
Who would ask you if you are a god? How would that discussion even happen?

I realize none of us are perfect but it isn't very hard to refrain from constantly debasing people in internet forums.

paraclete
Dec 13, 2012, 06:57 AM
Who would ask you if you are a god? How would that discussion even happen?

I realize none of us are perfect but it isn't very hard to refrain from constantly debasing people in internet forums.

You would like to know how that conversation could happen well God revealed a passage of Scripture to me that says I am one with Him and you see there was this JW and he just didn't get what I was telling him. All his magazine reading had just failed him

tomder55
Dec 13, 2012, 07:02 AM
My signature is not about revenge. It's about taking a political set back and not laying down and accepting defeat. Why did I use the Grant dialogue ? Because I like it. It's really that simple . You need not read anything else into it than that.

paraclete
Dec 13, 2012, 07:10 PM
Well Tom you like to quote from republicans but perhaps you should consider the words of Lee, they seem appropriate to the current crisis

The war... was an unnecessary condition of affairs, and might have been avoided if forebearance and wisdom had been practiced on both sides.
Robert E. Lee just subsititue anything you like for the words "the war"

tomder55
Dec 14, 2012, 04:22 AM
I could quote many people . Mao said politics is warfare by other means.

I agree with Lee . The system the founders set up would've had slavery wither on the vine had SCOTUS not made one of it's many horribly wrong decisions in the ' Dred Scott v. Sandford' case.

TUT317
Dec 14, 2012, 04:56 AM
I could quote many people . Mao said politics is warfare by other means.

I agree with Lee . The system the founders set up would've had slavery wither on the vine had SCOTUS not made one of it's many horribly wrong decisions in the ' Dred Scott v. Sandford' case.


Tom, you always cite SCOTUS as the villain in the play. I am sure there is a good argument for that position. The problem is that I cannot recall any civilization that has had a successful power sharing arrangement. Let alone a triumvirate. But than again I am a pessimist. A bit like yourself I suspect?

Tut

paraclete
Dec 14, 2012, 05:16 AM
Tut Tom is optimistic that capitalism will prevail and bail them out of their dilemma

TUT317
Dec 14, 2012, 05:42 AM
My signature is not about revenge. It's about taking a political set back and not laying down and accepting defeat. Why did I use the Grant dialogue ? Because I like it. It's really that simple . You need not read anything else into it than that.

Should we read anything into a famous quote you cite subsequently? "......politics is warfare by other means" . Perhaps you just like it?


Tut

tomder55
Dec 14, 2012, 05:54 AM
Specifically Eighty years of compromising (beginning with the Constitutional Convention and continued on in Congress ) went down the drain with the Dred Scott decision. In one fell swoop, the primary tool of compromise, a line by which it was determined which states would enter the Union as slave states, and which would enter as free states, was found to be unconstitutional. It is no coincidence that the Civil War began 3 years later .

tomder55
Dec 14, 2012, 05:55 AM
Should we read anything into a famous quote you cite subsequently? "......politics is warfare by other means" . Perhaps you just like it?


Tut

Read what you wish . Frankly civility and political correctness are over-rated.

TUT317
Dec 14, 2012, 06:25 AM
specifically Eighty years of compromising (beginning with the Constitutional Convention and continued on in Congress ) went down the drain with the Dred Scott decision. In one fell swoop, the primary tool of compromise, a line by which it was determined which states would enter the Union as slave states, and which would enter as free states, was found to be unconstitutional. It is no coincidence that the Civil War began 3 years later .


It is very easy to exact hindsight when it comes to historical events. Sounds a lot like you are promoting 'creeping determinism' to me. In other words, we can see past events in a clearer light after said events have taken place.

As far as SCOTUS' bad decisions are concerned I guess from our vantage point we knew it all along.

Perhaps in the same way as the Constitution knew it all along.

Fraught with bad methodology I would have thought.

Tut

tomder55
Dec 14, 2012, 07:11 AM
Nope ;as I've said before ,SCOTUS undermined the system with the Marbury v Madison decision. So as Jefferson said.. future events were predictable . In so many cases ,their decsion has left significant populations in this country embittered ;chiefly because SCOTUS by-passes the representative process. Too frequently they have made wrong calls in affirming bad law, reversing good law;and most importantly ,imposing remedies that they deem are needed. Nothing granted them that much power.

paraclete
Dec 14, 2012, 02:38 PM
They're is nothing else for it Tom a new revolution and a new constitution

TUT317
Dec 14, 2012, 11:33 PM
Nope


Is that a no to my idea that we can't place ourselves in a privileged position when it comes to judging events we are historically connected?

No to the idea that it is bad methodology to judge events that have already occurred as being more predictable than they were in the past?

Tom, you more than likely adhering to the fallacy of presentism (yes there really is such a fallacy).
It's the idea that we can supply an accurate analysis of past events by way of present day ideas and perspectives.



Tut

tomder55
Dec 15, 2012, 04:00 AM
By quoting Jefferson's observation about the Marbury decision I was giving you the perspective of a contemporary of John Marshall's in the era the decision was made. The fact that his predictions were spot on then and now validates his thoughts.

TUT317
Dec 15, 2012, 05:03 AM
By quoting Jefferson's observation about the Marbury decision I was giving you the perspective of a contemporary of John Marshall's in the era the decision was made. The fact that his predictions were spot on then and now validates his thoughts.


What does this have to do with anything? Even I could have made such a prediction for the time and further into the future Three brances of government each assigned and equal role in governance. One branch discovers that it can legislate to increase it's own power and influence.

You are trying to tell me this is a spot on prediction? Give me an instance in the history of Western civilization whereby some governing body hasn't sort to increase it's power and influence in a system that lacks adequacy. You don't need a crystal ball to predict that.

Tut

tomder55
Dec 15, 2012, 05:30 AM
The Judiciary should be the weakest of the co-equal branches. It neither controls the purse or the enforcement instruments. The fact that they have seized so much power in anti-constitutional . The ant-Federalist 'Brutus' also warned against this possibility and suggested that the Brit system that judicial decisions can be overturned by the legislature was a better system. I won't go that far because our legislature has had some bone head calls too. But perhaps a veto system would've provided a better check against the Judiciary power grab.

smearcase
Dec 15, 2012, 11:54 AM
The justice who casts the fifth vote is as close to having a king as it gets in the US. If the intention was to have legal experts ensure that the constitution was being correctly interpreted (I admit that I don't know if that was the intention but it should be) it still comes down to an individual or a few making the crucial decisions. Government by the people is a false promise under those circumstances. Maybe the prez, House, and Senate should be allowed to veto decisions if two of the three entities vote or decide to do so.
Or would any such measures turn the present near gridlock into total gridlock? And if the House voted against the supreme court decision while the Senate and Prez accepted it-- does that again leave the people out of the decision inasmuch as some say that the Senate represents the states and not the people?
Let the House make the first stab at constitutionality (isn't that already considered with any bill- if not, it should be) of any proposed bill or current law, and if the bill survives the process, enact it like any other. Give the supremes a small office in the Capitol and let them give their advice by testifying upfront instead of second-guessing on the back end. Would help the budget too. Elect the justices for 6 years max and let the people make the decisions like they are supposed to.
I know-- try amending the constitution for all or any of the above.

paraclete
Dec 15, 2012, 01:18 PM
Your justices are appointed for a term which cannot be terminated because the government has changed. This is important to preserve their independence and recognises that the handling of cases takes time and should not be interrupted by the political cycle. Having judges elected politicises the office.

The idea that they have usurped power is because they have made unpopular decisions, but they operate within constrained paramaters, whether a law or an act is constitutional, they do not write the laws.

The House and the Senate can vote against a Supreme Court decision by enacting a law and that law can be referred to the court and they can do it by having a referendum to amend the constitution.

The structure was set up for a reason, to check the power of each branch of government and avoid the possibility of a king arising. Events have moved a long way in two hundred years and those who draft and propose laws have pushed the boundries and every now and again someone must push back. Ultimately the court is guardian of liberty when the political process fails in this regard