Governor Walker of Wisconsin has no choice. He is mandated to have a balanced budget ;currently facing a $137 million budget deficit. He faces the choice of asking the public service employees ,including teachers ,to modestly contribute to their pension and health care entitlements(roughly 5% towards retirement pensions and 12% towards health care coverage);the state will still guarantee 95% of the pension, and 88% of the health care costs for state employees... or he can lay off 5,500 state workers to balance the budget .
This proposal would put Wisconsin in line with national averages.for public pension payments,and it is less than half the national average of what public service employees nationwide contribute to health care... which in itself is a much better deal than most private sector employees enjoy ,even as their tax dollar is being used to fund the public service benefits.

He has asked them for these concessions ,and has proposed that the law be changed so the state employee unions pensions and health care benefits would not be subject to collective bargaining (exempting police, fire, and state troopers)... their salaries would still be negotiable .

Here in NY Mayor Bloomy could not get the unions to agree. He will instead lay off city workers ,or let their jobs attrit by the thousands.

The left is reacting like this is a line in the sand that cannot be crossed. Thousands of activists have been bussed into Madison Wi. Courtesy of the President's goon campaign organization . Teacher's calling in sick have closed down school districts in 2 cities(cities where the performace record of the education system is nothing to brag about) . Doctors are writing fraudulent sick notes for teachers. The Democrats in the state legislature have cowardly bugged out of the state rather than vote on the Governors proposals.
The President ,butting in where he doesn't belong, 'stupidly' called the plan an "assault" on unions. It is not .It is merely asking the unions to fall in line with the rest of the labor force of the country. The President would be advised to get the national budget in line and stop worrying about the Wisconsin budget.
The national media has compared this to the Cairo pro-democracy protests ,when in fact ,the move by the Democrats are clearly un-democratic.
Governor Walker was elected in traditially liberal Wisconsin specifically because he said this is what he'd do.
That is why the factory worker in Madison who is doing overtime to get by voted for Walker. He has a legitimate point in objecting to have to pay taxes to support public workers benefits when he struggles to make ends meet himself .
This same scenario is going to be played out across the country as more states come to grip with their budget issues. This is a fact .The states have no choice.

He has asked them for these concessions ,and has proposed that the law be changed so the state employee unions pensions and health care benefits would not be subject to collective bargaining (exempting police, fire, and state troopers)...their salaries would still be negotiable .

The President ,butting in where he doesn't belong, 'stupidly' called the plan an "assault" on unions. It is not .It is merely asking the unions to fall in line with the rest of the labor force of the country. Hello tom:

Removing their rights to bargain collectively IS nothing other than union busting. Tell me exactly how much is saved by removing this right. Obama speaks the truth.

By the way - it's not PROPOSED. It's the LAW he wants to RAM down their throats.

excon

How much is saved ? Thousands of jobs. That's what.
He has the votes to get the law passed . That is why the Dems in the legislature bugged out. They are preventing the will of the people with a cowardly trick.

Hello again, tom:

He DOES have the votes to RAM IT THROUGH... So, RAMMING it down our throats a GOOD thing now?? I understand.

excon

PS> Why is this the will of the people, when health care reform wasn't?? I don't get you guys.

Clearly the Dems didn't have the votes to get the health care plan they envisioned passed. That is why they needed to get it passed through the back door reconciliation procedure they used. That is why they had to bribe and threaten many of their
Lawmakers to get it passed.
This is not similar to the health care vote at all.

This is trying to save the state budget. Obamacare is a budget buster.

Hello again, tom:

I STILL don't understand you guys. When Democrats pass a bill, it's being RAMMED down your throats... But when Republicans do it, it's the will of the people...

excon

Why doesn't he announce (the Govenor) that he isn't going to change anything. Allow for the school year to finish and then lay off all the teachers. Let them have the whole summer figuring out how to restructure their lives around their own pesonal budgets when they don't have any income.

It might make them wake up a little and there is nothing illegal about it. Also the whole process of tenure can go out the window as a new hiring process can begin.

How much is saved ? Thousands of jobs. Hello again, tom:

Are these the same jobs the super wealthy are going to create because we gave them their needed tax cut?? Or are these other jobs?? We're going to be in job heaven pretty soon aren't we?? That was what you promised, isn't it?? Ok. We GAVE the richest amongst us a HUGE tax break.. Didn't we do that because they can't create jobs with "uncertainty" in the air.. So, we removed the "uncertainty", and the jobs are coming, aren't they?? AREN'T THEY??

Or, is this "job" crap, like the last "job" crap?

excon

Hello again,

Let's call a spade a spade... The right wing doesn't like unions.. That's because unions, in the main, support Democrats. If the unions can be busted, it will be a boon for the Republican party.

So, I say this is about politics - and not about anything else... Now, if that provision about collective bargaining weren't in there, I'd be singing a different tune. But, it is, so I am.

excon

They aren't busting the unions . But the public unions are busting the state's budgets.

My own take is that public service workers should not be unionized at all . Not because of which political party the union bosses support . I imagine ;given the choice of layoffs or modest givebacks the rank and file in the Wisconsin public sector would do the same thing that their counterparts in the private-sector did .
UAW Agrees to Givebacks at Ford | Labor Notes (http://www.labornotes.org/node/2101)

Hello again, tom:

The unions have agreed to the FINANCIAL cuts the governor proposed. So, it's not about money. It's POLITICS, pure and simple.

By the way, if unions are busting the states, WHY did he exempt the cops and firemen? Would it be because they support Republicans?? Hmmmm.

excon

I don't know why . If it were me ;and the cops staged a job action I'd fire them just like Governor Calvin Coolidge did during the 1919 Boston police strike .
He said this in justification to his action.

This phrase caught the attention of the nation. It was beginning to be clear that if voluntary associations were to be permitted to substitute their will for the authority of public officials the end of our government was at hand.

Parents should go on strike against the teachers in Wisconsin. Milwaulkee schools have a 46% graduation rate... only 34% of African Americans students graduate. How dare they pull a job action with those numbers ! In the private sector they would not retain their jobs regardless of the terms.

Tell you what... open the state to 'right to work' laws and let the employees decide if they even want to be unionized. Maybe they are tired of having mandatory due taken out of their checks. Maybe those dues could pay for their benefit package.

Hello again, tom:

The unions have agreed to the FINANCIAL cuts the governor proposed. So, it's not about money. It's POLITICS, pure and simple.

By the way, if unions are busting the states, WHY did he exempt the cops and firemen? Would it be because they support Republicans??? Hmmmm.

excon

Where is it written that they agreed to anything so far? The newest story I can find is from yesterday and nothing like that is mentioned ?

Union protests spread across the US — RT (http://rt.com/usa/news/wisconsin-protest-anti-union-labor-rights/)

Where is it written that they agreed to anything so far? The newest story I can find is from yesterday and nothing like that is mentionHello again, dad:

Donna Brazile reported it this morning on This Week (http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/video/roundtable-unions-tea-party-12959696).

excon

I think that public service employees should have the same rights as Federal workers. They should have no right to collective bargain with our tax dollars. Wages and other compensation should be determined by the elected body that has the responsibility to spend tax revenue... the Legislature.

Hello again, tom:

I'm not a fan of unions. They act just like big corporations do - in THEIR own self interest - not MINE when I was a member. Nor, was I fan when federal workers won their collective bargaining rights... But, they did, and they made the agreements they did - NOT in a vacuum, as you would have us understand, but the agreement was with their employers - just like ANY bargaining agreement is with your employer...

That said, what you think SHOULD be done, or what I think SHOULD be done isn't the issue.. The issue here is whether the public service unions will survive. Their Waterloo is in Wisconsin. You're right. It's not about negotiation. The governor HAS the votes. He only needs the Democrats to fill a quorum so he can RAM it through. He doesn't care about their position.

So, it's now a matter of who blinks first...

excon

And this scenario is going to play out across the country . Today's headline in my local NY paper... 'Paying for NY pensions crippling local budgets'. It is an epidemic at State and local levels throughout the country.

Mitch Daniels in Indiana ;John Kasich in Ohio have similar proposals on the table. Heck ;even Jerry Brown and Andrew Cuomo are willing to entertain pension reforms for State workers. Across the board ,Governors around the country sound like Chris Christe .

I wonder where they were getting their information from for that ABC Roundtable ?

At the teachers union website there is no mention whatsoever of anything they tried to push on that show. No mention on voluntary cuts of any kind.

AFT - A Union of Professionals - Weingarten Urges Support for Wisconsin Workers (http://www.aft.org/newspubs/news/2011/021711wisconsin.cfm)

Dad ,at least for public posture the union leaders are saying they willing to accept the financial concessions called for in Walker's plan, but will not accept the loss of collective bargaining rights.
Opposing sides meet as Capitol protests enter sixth day (http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_a05349be-3be1-11e0-b0a1-001cc4c002e0.html)

They are taking this position because they know the bill will pass as is . The Governor doesn't need to negotiate. As soon as he can get the Legislature to meet the bill will become law.

Excon is right... this is Waterloo ,Gettysburg's Picketts charge all in one. This action will reverberate across the country as taxpayers rebel against paying their employees better wages and benefits than they are paid .
Here is the SEIU newsletter emailed today.

SEIU brothers and sisters,


As I write, 30,000 people are gathered outside of the Capitol building in Madison, Wisconsin speaking out against Republican Governor Scott Walker's attempt to take away collective bargaining rights from public employees.


Almost 14,000 of our SEIU brothers and sisters stand to lose their rights if Governor Walker gets his way: 9,000 nurses and nursing home staff, along with about 5,000 home care workers.


They've been out there among the demonstrators all week.


We've set up a page on our website that allows you to send a message of support to our SEIU family and everyone else fighting for their rights outside the Capitol.


Share your well-wishes for the working families in Wisconsin and we'll make sure they receive them this weekend.


SEIU | Send a message of support to SEIU members in Wisconsin (http://www.seiu.me/wisconsin)


While the collective bargaining rights of our members are at stake, it's important to note that the conversation taking place is about more than that alone. When Scott Walker manufactured this crisis by giving tax cuts to corporations and his special interest friends last month, it escalated a state legislative debate into a struggle for economic justice with large corporations not paying their fair share to get Americans back to work.


When you see the news of our members in Wisconsin on the television and online, those are the things they're fighting for.


Send a message to your SEIU brothers and sisters who have been outside the Capitol all week and we'll make sure they receive it.


SEIU | Send a message of support to SEIU members in Wisconsin (http://www.seiu.me/wisconsin)


Scott Walker claims this is about saving money, but President Obama said it best: this is an "assault on unions."


But it's not just union members at risk; it's the services these members provide-whether that be as teachers, public safety personnel or home health care workers.


I'll be in touch soon with updates from Wisconsin and other states where working families are under attack from a new crop of Republican governors.


In solidarity,


Mary Kay Henry

President, SEIU


PS - Republicans are trying to take away workers' rights in at least ten states. But if we stop them in Wisconsin, we'll make a strong statement that America will not tolerate any more Republican attacks on the middle class. Stand with workers in Wisconsin now:


SEIU | Send a message of support to SEIU members in Wisconsin (http://www.seiu.me/wisconsin)

If the Dems stay out much longer the people of Wisconsin should begin recall petitions.

What I don't understand is why the union doesn't agree to it and be done with it. To still have standing on the wage package and then be responsible to the membership shouldn't be out of line with the unions best interest. Instead they still want a free ride and its no longer going to work in this current economy. What rights are they actually giving up ? The right to free healthcare? (cough).

I'm was convinced the rank and file ;given the options would agree. Except it was pointed out to me that under rules established ,tenured employees would not get the ax. So they really have nothing to lose by playing hardball.

He was elected to do just what he's doing, what he said he would do. Elections have consequences, and at the end of the day he won, Obama needs to tend to his own mess, the AWOL democrats need get over their condescending attitude toward the new governor and face the music.

http://media.hotair.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Feb-19-2011-ZZ4-Al-Queda.jpg

http://media.hotair.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Feb-19-2011-D.jpg

http://media.hotair.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Feb-19-2011-P.jpg

http://media.hotair.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Feb-19-2011-J.jpg

http://media.hotair.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Feb-19-2011-F.jpg

http://media.hotair.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Feb-19-2011-C.jpg

I can't post the last one (http://media.hotair.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Feb-19-2011-A.jpg) here. Good to see the left has toned down the rhetoric after blaming the right for the Giffords shooting.

You forgot the ones with Walker in the crosshairs.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Hj5SJ1auXIU/TV6kcU2PsyI/AAAAAAAABJs/RYLWOThIA80/s400/crosshairs-wisconin.jpg

Hello again,

Those leftwing bastards...

excon

University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Health ,and the University of Wisconsin Medical Foundation will investigate physicians that were issuing fraudulent doctors 'sick notes' for teachers who attended anti-Walker rallies instead of teaching their students as they are paid to do .What they did was a violation of their contract.

News: Statement Regarding UW Health Physicians, UW Health, University of Wisconsin Hospital, Madison (http://www.uwhealth.org/news/statement-regarding-uw-health-physicians/30653)
Waiting for The state Medical Examining Board of the Department of Regulation and Licensing to follow suit. Not a good way to begin their medical career by creating fraudulent unethical documents .

for teachers who attended anti-Walker rallies instead of teaching their students as they are paid to do .What they did was a violation of their contract. Hello again, tom:

Yeah, the authorities told us to go back to school in '68 too. But, we didn't listen. Instead we stopped a war, brought down a president, and changed the world..

Same thing this time.

excon

Do you think that the 60s revolution was a success ? Most of the counter-culture types of your era became the greedy yuppies of conspicuous consumption of the 1980s ;the very thing they rebelled against.

Do you think that the 60s revolution was a success ? Hello again, tom:

Nothing lasts.. One of the Tea Party's favorite phrases is,. the seeds of liberty need to be replenished every now and then... or something like that. The 60's was then.. This is now.

excon

FIre every teacher who is not showing up for work. THat constitutes an Illegal strike... and you can be fired.

Submit a fraudulent doctors excuse... thats a fraudulant act... and can be fired.

Public servants should not be allowed to organise. THey don't earn anyone a profit... the suck taxpayers dry. And its really nothing more than a glorified mugging of the taxpayers. Because they aren't earning a profit for the taxpayers. Unlike union workers of the private business sector.

Government workers are tax payers too!

Government workers are tax payers too!

How much do they earn for the taxpayers if they are paid by the taxpayers? Answer... Nothing, they are a net burden. And they hardly pay their own salaries.

Its like the police running a shakedown racket on their own beats.

Then fire them all, and save money, and pick up your own garbage, clean, your own highways, after a blizzard, quit your job, and educate your own kids, protect your own city, put out your own fires, inspect your own houses, secure your own buildings, repair your own power lines, and maintain your own parks, get your own drivers license, clean up your own traffic accidents, fill your own pot holes, and guard your own felons.

Boy with the savings from all those useless government workers, we wouldn't have to pay taxes. You convinced me, they don't earn a dime for the taxpayers. Fire the bums!

Their work is important .
That is not an excuse for them to have some elevated position where they get better benefit packages than their counterpart in the private sector. Or do you think the work the private sector worker does is of less value ? Let the public service workers grow their own food , build their own houses , build and fix their own appliances... it goes on and on . Both sector have jobs because their services are needed. But these unions have taken union dues collected by the State for them... paid off politicians to approve budget busting collective bargaining agreements that the states and local governments can no longer afford .
EVERYONE else in the country have had to make cut backs and sacrifices including their fellow union members in the private sector. It's time for them to put up.

The Wisconsin union workers agree with you, but since the governor won't acknowledge their willingness to take MORE cuts in benefits, and wants MORE than just money, we have a problem.

EVERYONE else in the country have had to make cut backs and sacrifices including their fellow union members in the private sector. It's time for them to put up.Hello again, tom:

I thought we were talking about the 600 lb. gorilla in the room... Of course, the Wisconsin union HAS put up. They've CONCEDED their union demands. They only want to remain a union - not a social club.

It's actually time for Walker to STOP trying to bust the union.

excon

Sorry . Let the unions collect dues themselves and justify to the rank and file why their dues are going to line the pockets of politicians .
I'll go a step further . Let all states have 'right to work ' laws and end this encroachment on workers choice once and for all.

Why should Walker bend ? The real issue here is benefits... and even if they concede now ;it could still come up on the table at a later date. He is willing to have salary subject to collective bargaining... but that isn't what's bankrupting local governments .

I'll go a step further . Let all states have 'right to work ' laws and end this encroachment on workers choice once and for all.

Why should Walker bend ? The real issue here is benefits... and even if they concede now ;it could still come up on the table at a later date. He is willing to have salary subject to collective bargaining ...but that aint what's bankrupting local governments .Hello again, tom:

You're a very good Republican for thinking that way.

But, the problem I have is the state negotiating these benefits (they didn't HAVE to), and then passing a law to repudiate what they already agreed to.

IF it's bankrupting local governments, WHO in local government agreed to it?? WHY is it just ONE side who's to blame?? That's the problem I have with Republicans... You don't want to stick to your agreements... That ain't right.

excon

Yeah it's real unusual for laws to change and deals broken by government . :rolleyes:

I opened an IRA under one set of rules . The money I put in it sits there now under a different set of rules. My boss started his business under one set of rules that has been modified by the government hundreds of times since.

Suddenly because it affects unions the law is written on stone tablets ?

There are many states without any collective bargaining arrangement with public employees. The Wisconsin public workers will just have to adjust to work rules that the rest of the country lives under. The alternatives is huge layoffs.

The alternatives is huge layoffs.Hello again, tom:

That's the threat... Let's see if he has the balls to carry it out.. I'm ready for this fight.

excon

It happened this year in NY... 900 layoffs . Patterson said he had to because the unions would not budge.Cuomo agrees .
The difference is that it was a Dem Guv. So the unions didn't demonstrate like they have been doing in Wisconsin .

It happened this year in NY ...900 layoffs . Hello again, tom:

We have TWO things going on here. What happens, and what is PERCEIVED to have happened. The layoffs in NY happened OUT of the glare that Wisconsin is under. Governor Walker picked this fight. Most governors would have taken what the union gave him, called it a victory, and walked away...

But, nooooo... THIS governor has a different agenda. He wants to bust the unions. Should he do so, the charge will be taken up by every right wing Governor in the country, and the Democrats will be devastated. So, this is about politics - not jobs.

I don't know what it means, but Mitch Daniels and Rick Scott, two right wing governors, are backing away from Walker.

You and I will never agree about this stuff - but we DO agree about "uncertainty". You finally copped to having lots of it over your lifetime.

excon

I had to this point been an early supporter of Mitch Daniels .
It is a sign of weakness for him to cave on this because the Dems decided to go the undemocratic route and bug out of town.
I think a better solution is to conduct business without them if they chose to be absent . If the Dems can pull this stunt once
,what's to prevent them from doing it over and over ?

At CPAC Daniels called for a 'truce' yada yada . Now we know 'truce' means 'capitulation'.
That is the ONLY reason why Daniels "backed away" . It has nothing to do with his position. He still wants the 'right to work' law .But he's willing to let the Dems dictate the agenda.

You still have to pay laid off workers, maybe not as much but unemployment is better than nothing. Oh and you still pay for there full insurance benefit too. So how much of a savings are layoffs?

In addition, IF, the Wisconsin Governor gets his whole agenda through, as is then union workers still don't have to accept it and can under breach of contract can lawfully strike state wide. How much do you think THAT would cost the state??

Another thing we all have overlooked when we talk about fiscal responsibility, is a negotiated settlement that include pensions, and health insurance is often reached IN LIEU of increased wages.

Plus another part of Walkers bill is the right to contact our government functions like power companies and utilities without an open bid process, which is the law now, and we no who gets contracts without having to be the lowest bidder, just look at his campaign contributions list and see who benefits from that little gem.

If the Dems can pull this stunt once, what's to prevent them from doing it over and over ? Hello again, tom:

I don't know. What's to prevent the Republicans from doing the same thing over and over again?? I'll tell you what'll prevent them - that's when the underpinnings of Walkers strategy begin to fall apart. It looks like that's happening now. It looks like his fellow governors are abandoning him. He's all alone. Maybe he can tough it out... I don't think so, though.

If the overreach of Democrats on health care ignited the Tea Party movement, the attempted destruction of the labor movement might do the same thing for the left. Nobody expected the Democrats to react the way they did.

excon

The Democrats better remember... if they are going to act like this and defend it... they lose the right to whine and complain if the republicans ever do it down the road.

All politicians do is whine and complain, its in their job description. Just a side note, the Governor of Indiana is telling his legislature to back off trying to get the PRIVATE sector unions to give up their rights to collective bargaining. Boy, one little recession and we have to go all the way back to slavery. What's up with these Republicans.

Like the Wisconsin Dem's the Indiana Dem's ran to Illinois. What the heck is in Illinois??

All politicians do is whine and complain, its in their job description.

Total agreement with you there.

all government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public-personnel management. The very nature and purposes of government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with government employee organizations. The employer is the whole people.
Franklin Roosevelt

The Democrats better remember....if they are going to act like this and defend it...they lose the right to whine and complain if the republicans ever do it down the road.Hello again, smoothy:

You have a short memory... That, or you don't understand Roberts Rules of Order.. It's OK, that's why I'm here.

In the senate, the rules say they need 60 votes to pass a bill. The Republicans took advantage of that rule a bunch of times to BLOCK legislation they didn't like... I didn't hear a squawk from you then...

One of the rules in the Wisconsin legislature, is the senate needs a quorum in order to pass a bill. The Democrats are taking advantage of THAT rule to BLOCK legislation they don't like.

Why is it OK for the Republicans to use the rules, but the Democrats can't?

excon

Hello again, smoothy:

You have a short memory... That, or you don't understand Roberts Rules of Order.. It's ok, that's why I'm here.

In the senate, the rules say they need 60 votes to pass a bill. The Republicans took advantage of that rule a bunch of times to BLOCK legislation they didn't like... I didn't hear a squawk from you then...

One of the rules in the Wisconsin legislature, is the senate needs a quorum in order to pass a bill. The Democrats are taking advantage of THAT rule to BLOCK legislation they don't like. But, I'm hearing plenty from you this time...

Why is it OK for the Republicans to use the rules, but the Democrats can't??

excon

Funny how I heard them bellyaching just the other day about the FEDERAL budget... and the brain damaged witch (don't remember which one but she was a democrat) was bellyaching saying the republicans we effectively saying its "our way or the highway"

Gee... could she have Altzheimers... I seem to remember that's EXACTLY what the Democrats did the last two years. SPECIFICALLY on Obama care where they did it behind closed doors and never even allowed the Republicans to even attend.


Like I said... you can't have it both ways... if you want to argue its fine for you to do it... you can't complain the next time the other side does the same thing.


Personally... I think the Democrats in Wisconsin who left the state are the most immature bunch of babies I have seen outside of a daycare center.

If any of us refused to go to work with no valid excuse... we would be fired... and rightfully so. Lock them up... deraliction of duty... or misuse of taxpayer money.

THey were paid to do their job... not barhop in Illinois.

If any of us refused to go to work with no valid excuse...we would be fired.....and rightfully so. Lock them up....deraliction of duty...or misuse of taxpayer money.

They were paid to do their job....not barhop in Illinois.Hello again, smoothy:

In my view, they ARE DOING their job. Who told YOU what a senator is supposed to do? Do you have the written job description?? If you think they're PAID to sit there, we could get boobs to do that. Nope. That's NOT a senators job. His job is to REPRESENT his constituency. By using the RULES to BLOCK legislation their constituency DOESN'T like, IS doing their job - and doing it WELL. That IS what their job IS. Their job is nothing OTHER than that.

Yes, leaving the state IS a drastic method. So, change the rule. Plus, one could argue, and I AM making that argument, that filibustering legislation a party doesn't like, even though that party is the MINORITY party, IS a drastic method.

But, the RULES are the RULES, and what's good for the goose, and all that crap...

So, instead of the governor using the rules to shove legislation up the a$$ of his public (which the majority of his public doesn't want), these senators are using the rules to shove it up the governors a$$, and I LOVE it.

excon

Hello again, smoothy:

Do you have the written job description??? excon

Just for fun ;)



Job Description of a US Senator | eHow.com (http://www.ehow.com/facts_5155425_job-description-senator.html)

Job Description of a State Senator | eHow.com (http://www.ehow.com/about_6536325_job-description-state-senator.html)

Just for fun ;)



Job Description of a US Senator | eHow.com (http://www.ehow.com/facts_5155425_job-description-senator.html)

Job Description of a State Senator | eHow.com (http://www.ehow.com/about_6536325_job-description-state-senator.html)

So no qualifications then eh?

Hello again:

It now appears that the Democrats have WON. They used the RULES to achieve what they wanted, and there AIN'T nothing wrong with that... In fact, there's everything GOOD about that... I don't know why you think politics has to be done YOUR way. You just don't like it when you get snookered...

Oh, what did they achieve?? At least ONE moderate Republican and possibly two others are going to vote with the Democrats when they come back, and the bill will be defeated.

Yes, this is a BIG victory for the left, and a HUGE defeat for the right wingers... Bummer for you.

excon

Hello again:

It now appears that the Democrats have WON. They used the RULES to achieve what they wanted, and there AIN'T nothing wrong with that... In fact, there's everything GOOD about that.... I dunno why you think politics has to be done YOUR way. You just don't like it when you get snookered...

Oh, what did they achieve??? At least ONE moderate Republican and possibly two others are going to vote with the Democrats when the come back, and the bill will be defeated.

Yes, this is a BIG victory for the left, and a HUGE defeat for the right wingers... Bummer for you.

excon
Wait until the Republicans pull this (and they should now), and does anyone want to take bets when that happens you are going to be complaining about it then?

Do any of you actually LIVE in WI, or know anyone there?

I live across the border in Minneapolis, and grew up there--I have family all over the state.

My Facebook page is FILLED with Wisconsinites.

I have not seen a SINGLE person from Wisconsin that wasn't working for big business (who, by the way, got huge tax cuts in a "budget emergency").

THIS article explains how the pension plan in WI really works http://www.tax.com/taxcom/taxblog.nsf/Permalink/UBEN-8EDJYS?OpenDocument

And frankly--every single person in WI I've talked to is willing to pay more taxes to keep the education system one of the best in the country.

And I was very Republican when all this started, and thought Walker was doing a good thing.

Now, after everything I've read and heard---I think the man is an idiot, and he'll be lucky to have his job after all of the dust settles.

I thought this was interesting:
http://cdn.other98.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/walker-final.jpg

Do any of you actually LIVE in WI, or know anyone there?

I live across the border in Minneapolis, and grew up there--I have family all over the state.

My Facebook page is FILLED with Wisconsinites.

I have not seen a SINGLE person from Wisconsin that wasn't working for big business (who, by the way, got huge tax cuts in a "budget emergency").

THIS article explains how the pension plan in WI really works tax.com: Really Bad Reporting in Wisconsin: Who 'Contributes' to Public Workers' Pensions? (http://www.tax.com/taxcom/taxblog.nsf/Permalink/UBEN-8EDJYS?OpenDocument)

And frankly--every single person in WI I've talked to is willing to pay more taxes to keep the education system one of the best in the country.

And I was very Republican when all this started, and thought Walker was doing a good thing.

Now, after everything I've read and heard---I think the man is an idiot, and he'll be lucky to have his job after all of the dust settles.

Actually I did... they lived in Madison... but the one I knew best is doing a life sentence right now in the Federal prison system. Long story... made the national news a few years back.

Do any of you actually LIVE in WI, or know anyone there?

I live across the border in Minneapolis, and grew up there--I have family all over the state.

My Facebook page is FILLED with Wisconsinites.

I have not seen a SINGLE person from Wisconsin that wasn't working for big business (who, by the way, got huge tax cuts in a "budget emergency").

THIS article explains how the pension plan in WI really works tax.com: Really Bad Reporting in Wisconsin: Who 'Contributes' to Public Workers' Pensions? (http://www.tax.com/taxcom/taxblog.nsf/Permalink/UBEN-8EDJYS?OpenDocument)

And frankly--every single person in WI I've talked to is willing to pay more taxes to keep the education system one of the best in the country.

And I was very Republican when all this started, and thought Walker was doing a good thing.

Now, after everything I've read and heard---I think the man is an idiot, and he'll be lucky to have his job after all of the dust settles.

Actually I did, several, not lots... they lived in Madison... long story but the one I knew best is doing a life sentence right now in the Federal prison, made the national news. And another guy upstate.. but lost contact with him 2 years ago.

I thought this was interesting:
http://cdn.other98.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/walker-final.jpg

I'll take your Koch brothers and raise George Soros .

Do any of you actually LIVE in WI, or know anyone there?

I live across the border in Minneapolis, and grew up there--I have family all over the state.

My Facebook page is FILLED with Wisconsinites.

I have not seen a SINGLE person from Wisconsin that wasn't working for big business (who, by the way, got huge tax cuts in a "budget emergency").

THIS article explains how the pension plan in WI really works tax.com: Really Bad Reporting in Wisconsin: Who 'Contributes' to Public Workers' Pensions? (http://www.tax.com/taxcom/taxblog.nsf/Permalink/UBEN-8EDJYS?OpenDocument)

And frankly--every single person in WI I've talked to is willing to pay more taxes to keep the education system one of the best in the country.

And I was very Republican when all this started, and thought Walker was doing a good thing.

Now, after everything I've read and heard---I think the man is an idiot, and he'll be lucky to have his job after all of the dust settles.

Got a simple solution the rank and file should love. To offset the small concession ,let them contribute their union dues into the retirement health plans .

To say that what goes into their pensions and medical insurance is "deferred income " is simply not true and to say that by contributing to their benefits would be the equivalent of a pay cut is a bogus argument. I have deferred income and it shows up on my tax statement . By that rationale every worker in the country who contributes to their benefits are taking wage cuts. If my boss provides coffee for free and then later decides to cut out the free coffee this article suggests I'm taking a pay cut.

It's time the pubic service workers joined the rest of working America instead of picking their pockets . Yes I said it. The politicians who negotiate their deals have their campaigns financed by the unions they negotiate with. Their sweetheart contracts are payback that the States can no longer afford.

I don't understand why this is so hard to understand. All you need to do is look at Greece to know where this heads if not stopped now.

Now, after everything I've read and heard---I think the man is an idiot, and he'll be lucky to have his job after all of the dust settles.Hello Synn:

Thanks for that research... I didn't know that stuff. I don't think even the Democrats knew it, or they wouldn't have given up so quick...

The ONE good thing about the Democrats escape is, it's given us pause... We really don't make very good law when we're under the gun.

excon

PS> I'm eating American Cheese in solidarity with you...

We really don't make very good law when we're under the gun.

excon



Like Obamacare that was done behind closed doors without any republican input... RIGHT?

The politicians who negotiate their deals have their campaigns financed by the unions they negotiate with. Their sweetheart contracts are payback that the States can no longer afford.

I don't understand why this is so hard to understand. Hello again, tom:

It would be believable if EVERY politician the union negotiated with over the last 75 years were Democrats... But, that just ain't so.

excon

Oh please. I work in education, in a proprietary school.

I WISH I got the benefits that state workers get, or the salary that my colleagues in private schools get. And by benefits, I mean vacation time, overtime, and a retirement plan.

Admit it, you wish you had those things too.

BUT--my point is not that WI state workers (which do include tenured professors that sit on their butts and pick their noses and contribute NOTHING---but ALSO include school cafeteria workers, bus drivers, and librarians---many of whom do not get the benefits and pensions you're so worried about, but still belong to the union) are sopping up extra taxes---because it doesn't MATTER if they are. Wisconsinites are willing to PAY extra taxes to keep their education system from being like Texas or Tennessee.

So... since the citizens of WI are willing to pay taxes to keep their teachers, who the heck are YOU to tell them they can't?

What they're OBJECTING to is the loss of collective bargaining. NOT the money--the bargaining. They've ALREADY conceded pay cuts and benefits cuts. They just don't want to lose their right to be a UNION.

And frankly--if the state workers are pickpockets, then the big businesses in WI are crime lords directing thugs to mug everyone. Where was more money lost--pensions or tax cuts for the wealthy and big businesses? I am betting the those tax cuts lost a LOT more money than state workers did.

Does it matter which party ? However Democrats until last year held control of Wisconsin politics for decades.

Robert Barro says collective bargaining should be a violation of antitrust laws (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704150604576166011983939364.html?m od=rss_opinion_main). I agree.


How ironic that Wisconsin has become ground zero for the battle between taxpayers and public- employee labor unions. Wisconsin was the first state to allow collective bargaining for government workers (in 1959), following a tradition where it was the first to introduce a personal income tax (in 1911, before the introduction of the current form of individual income tax in 1913 by the federal government).

Labor unions like to portray collective bargaining as a basic civil liberty, akin to the freedoms of speech, press, assembly and religion. For a teachers union, collective bargaining means that suppliers of teacher services to all public school systems in a state—or even across states—can collude with regard to acceptable wages, benefits and working conditions. An analogy for business would be for all providers of airline transportation to assemble to fix ticket prices, capacity and so on. From this perspective, collective bargaining on a broad scale is more similar to an antitrust violation than to a civil liberty.

In fact, labor unions were subject to U.S. antitrust laws in the Sherman Antitrust Act of 1890, which was first applied in 1894 to the American Railway Union. However, organized labor managed to obtain exemption from federal antitrust laws in subsequent legislation, notably the Clayton Antitrust Act of 1914 and the National Labor Relations Act of 1935.

Remarkably, labor unions are not only immune from antitrust laws but can also negotiate a "union shop," which requires nonunion employees to join the union or pay nearly equivalent dues. Somehow, despite many attempts, organized labor has lacked the political power to repeal the key portion of the 1947 Taft Hartley Act that allowed states to pass right-to-work laws, which now prohibit the union shop in 22 states. From the standpoint of civil liberties, the individual right to work—without being forced to join a union or pay dues—has a much better claim than collective bargaining. (Not to mention that "right to work" has a much more pleasant, liberal sound than "collective bargaining.") The push for right-to-work laws, which haven't been enacted anywhere but Oklahoma over the last 20 years, seems about to take off.

Synn ,the incentives to keep businesses in Wisconsin have not kicked in. The budget shortfall has nothing to do with tax cuts to over taxed businesses.


I WISH I got the benefits that state workers get, or the salary that my colleagues in private schools get. And by benefits, I mean vacation time, overtime, and a retirement plan.

I'm sure you and I wish it . What I don't like is that you as a teacher in the private sector are getting less and still are required to chip in with your tax dollars to pay for their gold plated benefits.

The business incentives in WI suck, big-time. It's one of the worst states in the country for businesses.

But what's the point of business incentives that aren't as good as those just over the border into IL, MN or MI?

And I'm not in WI--and don't necessarily agree with unions. What I DO agree with, though, is the right for the voters to determine the laws in their state. The voters were not given a choice on this--it was rammed through without any compromises.

And I wish I were a teacher--I'd get paid more. I'm an administrator, sadly, and no one appreciates us. ESPECIALLY in the private sector.

People are against tuition increases, and against state subsidies for teachers and administrators---but still want the best education possible. The average welfare recipient gets more in benefits (an average of $36k per year) than most teachers do.

So please--don't tell me they have gold-plated benefits. They work long hours, unthanked, for less than $35k a year most of the time. And are still expected to be nice to the snotty, entitled kids that parents who don't want to pay taxes for teacher salaries send to their classroom with every form of sickness and mental health problems.

I know! Let's pay teachers to BABYSIT instead. Screw teaching--that costs too much. Let's just hire them to be daycare workers. Looking into daycare now, it's about $40 a day, per kid. Average classroom of 30 kids equals $1200 a day for teachers---and all they have to do is WATCH them instead of teaching them.

Please. Let's give educators what they're worth to us as a society and stop *****ing about the fact that they get good benefits for doing it.

Robert Barro says collective bargaining should be a violation of antitrust laws. I agree.Hello again, Steve:

You are to be commended for admitting this is about union busting, and NOT balancing a budget.. Why won't your fellow right wingers admit it? Are they ashamed?

excon

Wow Synn.. quite a rant. I agree that good teachers are under appreciated . Perhaps if there were more incentives for good teaching and less incentive to make it to tenure then there would be more of the good teachers you describe.

Still in Wisconsin ,the teachers per capita average salary before benefits is around $51,000 . Consider that's for a 180 day work year and it raises to around $68,000, before their benefits, pensions, and job security are factored in .

The taxpayers who are being asked to support their contracts earn on average $50,000.The ones with health care and pensions/401k etc are contributing heavily into their plans... AND paying taxes for the teachers deal.
It's just not right for the people of Wisconsin to have to shell out for the benefits of workers who earn 36% more than they do.

The taxpayers who are being asked to support their contracts earn on average $50,000.The ones with health care and pensions/401k etc are contributing heavily into their plans ....AND paying taxes for the teachers deal. It's just not right for the people of Wisconsin to have to shell out for the benefits of workers who earn 36% more than they do.Hello again, tom:

Couple things.

You say the taxpayers are being "ASKED to support.....", whereas the proper language is that, through their elected representatives, the taxpayers AGREED to the present contract. The unions are not asking for anything OTHER that what was already agreed to. The teachers didn't STEAL anything, and they're not asking for anything new.

Nonetheless, you may be right about their contracts. But, the place to rectify that is where the problem occurred in the first place - at the bargaining table. You guys want to pick up your chips and go home, but busting the union ain't going to happen. I think the Republicans are doing it just to get even for Obamacare, anyway.

excon

Obamacare wasn't legally passed... or constitutional.

After all... the GM Blue collar retirees got the royal shaft... but not the white collar retirees. THAT was in contracts too, and paid for over decades of labor.

And they have Obama to thank for that rectal reaming.

Why should the Wisconsin Civil servants be above that.

Here's the thing you are missing:

The REASON Wisconsin workers should not be subjected to all of this is because the TAXPAYERS in WISCONSIN---you know, the ones paying for this?--are saying that they WANT to pay their educators that much. The VOTERS and the PROTESTORS are saying they WILL pay for this.

They are WILLING to pay for gold-plated union workers to be educators in their state. They are NOT willing to pay for big businesses to get tax cuts.

Did things change in this country when I wasn't looking, and taxpayers and voters stopped being able to determine whether they're willing to pay for it?

This has NOTHING to do with the state budget. Everything I've been shown on this points to UNION BUSTING, not to SAVING MONEY or CREATING JOBS.

Walker's an idiot. He's lost his job over this, because he won't be re-elected.

This whole thing comes down to the fact that people in Wisconsin are WILLING to pay their teachers that much so that they don't have an education system that looks like Arizona's or Tennessee's education system---you know, in the top 10 instead of the bottom 10.

So... the PROBLEM is that they're willing to pay for the teachers to get what they want and need (and remember--the union already agreed to pay cuts and benefits cuts--they just don't want to give up collective bargaining), and Walker is trying to tell them that they HAVE to cut the budget in THIS ONE PLACE, with NO other options, including that tax cut to businesses.

So what it comes down to is this: Walker is trying to bust a union. There's no real shortage of funds in Wisconsin at this time. People are ticked off that if there ARE real shortages, then why the hell are we giving tax cuts to businesses that can AFFORD to pay taxes?

I don't think so . Walker put this on the table during the elections and surprise... he's doing what he said he would.
Got news for all. Almost every state in the union is facing similar budgets .
The President tried to buy them time with the bucket list transfer of Federal money to the states ;but that gravy train is over. Unlike the idiots running the Federal Government ,the States can't print currency to pay for bloated budgetting .They are all mandated to balance the budget.

The public service obligations of the states are budget busters. These are obligations that they can't tax their way out of it. People and businesses are mobile . Many people have already picked up and left here due to overtaxation. Yet it is estimated that an 18 percent tax hike would be needed to fund it.

In NJ the pension shortfall was $45.8 billion as of June 30, 2009, or more than $5,200 for every person in the state.

Nationwide State and local government workers get paid an average of $25.30 an hour, which is 33% higher than the private sector’s $19, according to Bureau of Labor Statistics data. Throw in pensions and other benefits and the gap widens to 42%.
So please spare me the boo hoo over the state workers plight.

Hello again, Steve:

You are to be commended for admitting this is about union busting, and NOT balancing a budget.. Why won't your fellow right wingers admit it?? Are they ashamed?

Again, we're talking two different things, public employee unions and private sector unions. I don't believe public employees need a union, I don't like the fact that they can negotiate with my tax dollars, I should be able to tell THEM what they're to be paid and what their benefits are and if they suck at their jobs - teachers included - they need to FIRED.

I don't believe public employees need a union, I don't like the fact that they can negotiate with my tax dollars,Hello again, Steve:

Every time I hear this, I wrinkle up my nose and say, what?? Maybe I'm dense, but if you drive a Ford, they negotiate with their workers with YOUR dollars... If you use Exxon gas, they negotiate with their workers with YOUR dollars... Whenever you use a product made by union labor, they're using YOUR dollars to negotiate with their workers... If you use a street, they negotiate with their workers with YOUR dollars... If your trash is picked up, they use YOUR dollars to negotiate with their workers...

You SAY the unions representing PRIVATE industry are waaaaay cool... But, the unions representing your school crossing guard IS a BANE to the taxpayer and ought to be stamped out...

But, I see no difference... No difference at all. Yes, the city collects taxes to pay for the streets you use to negotiate with unions, and private industry collects income from sales to negotiate with the unions... But, whether it's taxes or income from sales, they're the SAME. They DO the same thing. How can you think one is great, and the other is not??

If you would REALLY tell the truth, once you kill the public service unions, you're going to go after the rest, aren't you?

excon

Why do I bother, you answer for me. OK, so if these unions are sooo good, why don't they give a damn about the children in these sorry schools? Why are good teachers being fired an bad teachers being kept? Why aren't teachers in Wisconsin teaching? Time for a flashback...

aw0aBkt8CPA

The 83k a year teacher is complaining she's not being compensated for her education or experience, but "teachers do it because they love it." If that's so, they'd be teaching their students instead of getting fraudulent doctor's notes so they can skip school... to hell with the children.

Why do I bother, you answer for me. OK, so if these unions are sooo good, Hello again, Steve:

I didn't say they were so good. I said they're the same. I don't disagree that the benefits are not sustainable... The place to fix them, though, is at the bargaining table - and NOT jammed down their throats...

You didn't like that jamming down your throat stuff when it was healthcare, but jamming stuff that destroy unions is cool.. I understand.

excon

Since we're talking about how taxpayer money is spent, let's just take away all the research grants that have profs sitting on their butts and getting credit while grad students work away. We have Big Pharma to do research! We shouldn't pay to have it in state schools!

And FOOTBALL! And BASKETBALL! And HOCKEY! My LORD! Do you know how much money is funneled into state schools for SPORTS? Sports are not educational! Let's just fire a few coaches, and we'll get the entire state deficit back!

OOOOH! Even BETTER! Let's lower the drinking age in WI to 18! The beer companies have said they'd make up the deficit caused by the loss of federal money for highways, and that would create a whole BUNCH more business! Not only for bars and taverns, but for lawyers and bail bondsmen. Not to mention insurance agents and car dealerships and car repair shops! I'm better that people would be okay with a higher liquor tax if you lowered the drinking age! That's even MORE money coming in!

I wonder if that would make up the difference that just wanting to keep collective bargaining (which has no monetary stamp whatsoever attached to it) with state workers.

You keep talking about taxes and deficits---but the state workers ALREADY took a pay and benefits cut. The only thing they're fighting for right now is the right to collectively bargain. That doesn't have a price tag on it, last I saw. So... where's all this extra money from taking it away going to come from?

This is ALL about busting the unions, not about money. If it were about money, it would have ended when the state workers conceded pay and benefits.

I'm with Steve in his position of the public service unions collective bargaining so called right.

In that we are both in agreement with FDR who said :

all government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public-personnel management. The very nature and purposes of government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with government employee organizations. The employer is the whole people.

I'm a free association type of guy. I think workers should have the choice to join a union... or not .That is why I favor right to work laws . Governor Walker says the state should not be doing the dues collection services for the union masters ,through automatic payroll deduction,. who in turn contribute to politicians . Let the union collect dues from the rank and file without the automatic payroll deduction and see how much the rank and file is willing to contribute .

Governor Walker would NOT remove collective bargaining for wages... only for benefits.

Since we're talking about how taxpayer money is spent, let's just take away all the research grants that have profs sitting on their butts and getting credit while grad students work away.
No problem there .I see how well that's worked out with the 'climate scientists '.

And FOOTBALL! And BASKETBALL! And HOCKEY! My LORD! Do you know how much money is funneled into state schools for SPORTS?! Sports are not educational! Let's just fire a few coaches, and we'll get the entire state deficit back!
Actually for the major programs sports is a revenue source for the colleges. That means they can charge less tuition .

OOOOH!! Even BETTER! Let's lower the drinking age in WI to 18! The beer companies have said they'd make up the deficit caused by the loss of federal money for highways, and that would create a whole BUNCH more business! Not only for bars and taverns, but for lawyers and bail bondsmen.


Not to mention insurance agents and car dealerships and car repair shops! I'm better that people would be okay with a higher liquor tax if you lowered the drinking age! That's even MORE money coming in!
I have no probem with that . 18 is considered adult .

I wonder if that would make up the difference that just wanting to keep collective bargaining (which has no monetary stamp whatsoever attached to it) with state workers.
I disagree .The collective bargaining process has bankrupt the states.

Since we're talking about how taxpayer money is spent, let's just take away all the research grants that have profs sitting on their butts and getting credit while grad students work away. We have Big Pharma to do research! We shouldn't pay to have it in state schools!

And FOOTBALL! And BASKETBALL! And HOCKEY! My LORD! Do you know how much money is funneled into state schools for SPORTS?! Sports are not educational! Let's just fire a few coaches, and we'll get the entire state deficit back!

OOOOH!! Even BETTER! Let's lower the drinking age in WI to 18! The beer companies have said they'd make up the deficit caused by the loss of federal money for highways, and that would create a whole BUNCH more business! Not only for bars and taverns, but for lawyers and bail bondsmen. Not to mention insurance agents and car dealerships and car repair shops! I'm better that people would be okay with a higher liquor tax if you lowered the drinking age! That's even MORE money coming in!

I wonder if that would make up the difference that just wanting to keep collective bargaining (which has no monetary stamp whatsoever attached to it) with state workers.

Ya'll keep talking about taxes and deficits---but the state workers ALREADY took a pay and benefits cut. The only thing they're fighting for right now is the right to collectively bargain. That doesn't have a price tag on it, last I saw. So....where's all this extra money from taking it away going to come from?

This is ALL about busting the unions, not about money. If it were about money, it would have ended when the state workers conceded pay and benefits.

I'm all for cutting those first few things out as well. And will add, rebates for "Green" crap... etc... if its not good enough on its own... then its not worth subsidizing.

Same with subsidizing education for the lazy and illegals... want to get get a loan. I had to do it... I was worse off than Obama the same year he went... he gets a free ride for being the right skin color... I was told to p*ss off. Even though neither parent had a full time jon for several previous years (the Jimmy Carter recession). No subsidized housing... pay the rent or move someplace you can. No welfare. Get a job or live under a bridge.

Save the food stamps and unemployment for people who actually earned the right to collect them in hard times.

The state workers aren't taking the cut most of the rest of us have... and haven't had to deal with the nearly monthly layoffs and staff reductions. My office has had 60% staff cuts in the last 14 months alone. But the workload remains the same. I'm happy to still be drawing a paycheck. I have the experience to run an entire office... and enough seniourity to still be around... but not enough to consider myself either safe or secure I'll still have my job even 6 months from now.

They aren't paying $300+ a month for employer provided health insurance... they aren't essentually funding 100% of their retirement like most of us are... even those of us in Unions.

Unions should be prevented from spending a dime union dues on Political activities... because large portions of their memberships DON'T vote for the people the money they are forced to pay is going to support. For example... there are very few members of my local that are democrats.. yet we get no choice where our union dues we HAVE to pay are wasted.

Lets let the State employees pay for their own retirements like the rest of us have to. Heck... if 401K's are good enough for the rest of us... its good enough for them too. Same with their medical Coverage... let them pay what the average American pays out of pocket. I don't get free health care... and I'm in one of the most well known Unions there is.

Hello again,

You know, of course, we really don't have to be doing this right now... There IS a bunch of jobs coming our way any day now, if we just hang on.. I mean, we DID just give the "job creators", the richest 2% amongst us, a huge tax cut, didn't we? And, we were told that if we did that, they'd create jobs, weren't we? They wouldn't lie, would they? Ok, they got theirs, where's the jobs?

What did you say?? There's only one more little teeny thing you need from us before you unleash the jobs. You want us to just sit by and watch you crush the unions... Then we'll surly be awash with jobs... No? You're not lying this time, are you?

excon

I'm with Steve in his position of the public service unions collective bargaining so called right.

In that we are both in agreement with FDR who said :

all government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public-personnel management. The very nature and purposes of government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with government employee organizations. The employer is the whole people.



Hi Tom,


I'm not sure who the FDA are but I would disagree that the employer is the whole person. Not unless they can show how this works. The FDA is assuming we can move from the singular to the general without having to establish the steps in between.

I think Steve is wrong. The taxpayer is not the employer and the taxpayer shouldn't decide what public officials should be paid. In fact this is an impossible task.

How do we establish that (A) -the employer leads to the whole people. In other words, (A) leads to (B), (B) leads to (C) and finally linked to (Z) -the whole people.

The assumption appears we can move from (A) -the employer automatically leads to (Z)- the whole people. I think this is a very slippery slope argument.

Regards

Tut

This is about saving those union jobs not crushing the unions. The states can't afford them at the current compensation level . So they learn to live with the new reality of having wages and compensation more in line with the private sector ,or they get cut loose and learn to survive in the private sector . Their choice.

How do we establish that (A) -the employer leads to the whole people. In other words, (A) leads to (B), (B) leads to (C) and finally linked to (Z) -the whole people.

The assumption appears we can move from (A) -the employer automatically leads to (Z)- the whole people. I think this is a very slippery slope argument.


Tut with all due respect ,your logic is fuzzy . Let me simplify without using an alphabet soup. The public employees do not get a dollar of wage or benefit that doesn't come from the tax revenue of the state. The revenue of the state belongs to the people of the state .That makes the tax payers and the people of the state the single employer of the public worker.

By the way... FDR (not FDA) is Franklin Roosevelt... the most socialist President the US had before the anointed one ,Obama .Even he understood that the worker employer relationship between private employer and worker was different than the public employee's relationship with the government that hires them.

Me ;I would privatize many of their functions and let private employers contract and license for the work that the public employee provides (except absolutely essential services like police protection ) .

this is about saving those union jobs not crushing the unions. The states can't afford them at the current compensation level . So they learn to live with the new reality of having wages and compensation more in line with the private sector ,or they get cut loose and learn to survive in the private sector . Their choice.

Now I remember way back when, well it might have been twenty or thirty years ago, when my own nation had to learn the hard lesson that there is no such thing as a free lunch or guaranteed employment or the perks of office, etc. There was a difficult time for a while, it led to the recession we had to have and the banana republic and the decline of unionism but out of it came a stronger nation which weathered the exporting of industries and today 5% unemployment and an economy that can weather the shocks the twenty first century has thrown at it. So I suggest you learn the lesson and learn to love the razor

Agreed . The left here is still using models developed at the turn of the 20th century.

this is about saving those union jobs not crushing the unions. The states can't afford them at the current compensation level . So they learn to live with the new reality of having wages and compensation more in line with the private sector ,or they get cut loose and learn to survive in the private sector . Their choice.

And when the police, the fire department, the state patrol, the prison keepers, the teachers, the universities, the emergency road crews, the plow drivers, the bus drivers, the cafeterias, etc, all go to hell and go private sector because that's where the good people are, do you REALLY think it will cost the taxpayer less in the long run?

Because if you force it all to go private sector, then you're forcing demand to go up, causing the supply to charge more. Yeah, there will be some chaff that you get rid of, but there will also be some gems that you'll never be able to hire at private sector wages.

Here's something I don't know if you know: In order to teach at a regionally accredited university, you have to have a degree one HIGHER than the degree you are teaching. So if you teach bachelor's level courses, you need to have a master's degree. There ARE exceptions to this, but not as many anymore as you would think.

We've been trying to hire (at our proprietary school, so private sector) two department chairs for some time now--one for a year, and one for 6 months. The qualified applicant must have a master's in business (for one program) and a master's in IT (for the other program) and must have experience in an educational environment. In the "private sector", those are 6-figure incomes pretty much right after you get your degree.

Because we're a proprietary school, and cannot provide the benefits OR salary of a state school---we can't fill the position. I don't know what they pay, but it's a good deal less than $100k. And our benefits are CRAP.

So that means that our students suffer because we simply can't compete with the "private sector", and we ARE the private sector! But with Washington closely watching proprietary schools, we certainly can't raise tuition (like a private school could) and we can't get subsidized to make sure our students are getting what they need (like a public university).

If you put public schools into that sort of economic environment, and you're going to have a shortage of state workers in general, and of teachers in particular. Teachers are paid for crap most of the time anyway--so why in the HELL would anyone become one if they didn't get some of the benefits the state currently provides? I know SEVERAL people that will quit their jobs if they lose collective bargaining, because they can make more money doing something else with their degree.

Me ;I would privatize many of their functions and let private employers contract and license for the work that the public employee provides (except absolutely essential services like police protection ) .

Teachers are not "essential services"?

No wonder you and I clash on so much of this!

Teachers are THE most essential service the country has. If you start taking away a quality public education, you will drive this country to hell even faster than it is already going.

No .Have you seen "Waiting for Superman " yet ? It is intollerable the lack of education that the public school system has delivered in this country overall given the amt. of resources that goes into the public school systems nationwide. I think it would be much more efficient if the standards were set by the state and the education system was subject to competition in the market place. Too often to ensure that children get a quality education parents have to shell out major dollars to private tutors or businesses like Sylvan ,Kaplan etc. for their children to be brought to basic levels of competence in the very basic subjects... It is undeniable that American students are falling way behind in basic levels of education needed to compete in the 21st century workforce.

And when the police, the fire department, the state patrol, the prison keepers, the teachers, the universities, the emergency road crews, the plow drivers, the bus drivers, the cafeterias, etc, all go to hell and go private sector because that's where the good people are, do you REALLY think it will cost the taxpayer less in the long run?

Because if you force it all to go private sector, then you're forcing demand to go up, causing the supply to charge more. Yeah, there will be some chaff that you get rid of, but there will also be some gems that you'll never be able to hire at private sector wages.

Here's something I don't know if you know: In order to teach at a regionally accredited university, you have to have a degree one HIGHER than the degree you are teaching. So if you teach bachelor's level courses, you need to have a master's degree. There ARE exceptions to this, but not as many anymore as you would think.

We've been trying to hire (at our proprietary school, so private sector) two department chairs for some time now--one for a year, and one for 6 months. The qualified applicant must have a master's in business (for one program) and a master's in IT (for the other program) and must have experience in an educational environment. In the "private sector", those are 6-figure incomes pretty much right after you get your degree.

Because we're a proprietary school, and cannot provide the benefits OR salary of a state school---we can't fill the position. I don't know what they pay, but it's a good deal less than $100k. And our benefits are CRAP.

So that means that our students suffer because we simply can't compete with the "private sector", and we ARE the private sector! But with Washington closely watching proprietary schools, we certainly can't raise tuition (like a private school could) and we can't get subsidized to make sure our students are getting what they need (like a public university).

If you put public schools into that sort of economic environment, and you're going to have a shortage of state workers in general, and of teachers in particular. Teachers are paid for crap most of the time anyway--so why in the HELL would anyone become one if they didn't get some of the benefits the state currently provides? I know SEVERAL people that will quit their jobs if they lose collective bargaining, because they can make more money doing something else with their degree.

This is a whole different discussion that incorporates the need of the state to run institutions of higher education ;whether there has been an over emphasis in the need for the standard college degree and many other priority issues. I've been keeping the discussion here to the primary and secondary education systems since they are mandated.


I disagree with the premise of the 1st paragraph. It's become a parody ;the road crew with 4 people watching the 5th filling a pot hole ;but too often that represents reality . Since we are talking education ,I'll stick to that . Everything beyond the teaching force and a few adminstrators could easily be contracted out . Private colleges hire food services ;why can't public ? Private businesses contract out maintenance services ,why can't public ? I'd bet anything the level of performace would improve .

Hello again, tom:

During the health care debate, you were the VOICE of the people, and you didn't let us forget... But, this time, the peoples VOICE is on the other side (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/01/us/01poll.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha2), and OVERWHELMINGLY so...

So, what the people want only matter SOMETIMES??

excon

All I know is results . Mitch Daniels did away with the public sector unions collective bargaining by executive order on his 1st day in office. By 2005 Indiana's budget was balanced.

It doesn't matter what my opinion is... there is no choice here.
When the entitlement spending at the Federal level is debated ,the same options will be presented for consideration.

No .Have you seen "Waiting for Superman " yet ? It is intollerable the lack of education that the public school system has delivered in this country overall given the amt. of resources that goes into the public school systems nationwide. I think it would be much more efficient if the standards were set by the state and the education system was subject to competition in the market place. Too often to ensure that children get a quality education parents have to shell out major dollars to private tutors or businesses like Sylvan ,Kaplan etc. for their children to be brought to basic levels of competence in the very basic subjects ... It is undeniable that American students are falling way behind in basic levels of education needed to compete in the 21st century workforce.

Part of that is the No Child Left Behind program--which was the most idiotic thing a government ever came up with--which teaches to the stupidest kids in the class rather than the smartest.

Part of it is uninvolved parents.

Part of it is that the national scores are brought down by states like AZ and TN and TX, who do NOT place an emphasis on education like WI, MN, and MD (who have been in the top 10 for the last 10 years for sure, maybe longer).

And part of it is that a lot of teachers don't last more than a year or two without burning out because of the bureaucracy of the education system. They're expected to teach, parent, babysit, police and monitor students for any health or emotional problems, and be there for their students LONG after their shift has ended. In addition, to save money many of them MUST be involved in extra-curricular activities that are part of their salary--they don't get paid extra to be the Spanish Club leader or the play director. We actually need to do MORE for our teachers, or at least lower the expectations of them, rather than LESS. PARENTS need to parent and babysit. POLICE need to police. Doctors and counselors need to monitor. And people should be hired to handle extra-curriculars, rather than expecting teachers to do something that isn't teaching for no extra money.

If WI is #8 in the country for education, they must be doing SOMETHING right. And frankly, I got a great education in WI. I was appalled when I lived in states like WA and TX and saw the state of their education systems. When the valedictorian of a class was scoring less than 1000 on the SAT, there's something wrong with the education system in general in that state. I was in the top 10% of my class, and graduated with a 3.89. I scored a 32 on the ACT (I didn't take the SAT) and was extremely disappointed in my score (but there were extenuating life circumstances going on at the time for me).

There are plenty of fixes for the education system that I can think of--one is that making welfare dependent on a high school diploma would help, as would letting students drop out at 16 without parental consent so that we're only teaching the kids that WANT to learn. Of course, those students can't get Welfare, so...

And seriously---you want to limit state spending? GET RID OF WELFARE. Start making birth control a mandatory part of receiving it. HALVE the benefits--there's no reason someone on welfare should make more in benefits than I do, salary and benefits combined. Take the kids away from ANYONE who is confirmed a drug addict or neglectful and give them to the thousands of people waiting to adopt.

When the entitlement spending at the Federal level is debated ,the same options will be presented for consideration.Hello again, tom:

Here's a warning... After having given the richest of the rich amongst us a HUGE tax cut, the idea of shared sacrifice is out the window. It got noticed.

Having noticed, too, that NOBODY went to jail after we were RIPPED OFF to the tune of ZILLIONS of $$$'s, the victims of that crime are NOT predisposed to being victimized again. And that's exactly what the right wing is trying to do.

As long as you try to balance the federal budget on the backs of the poor and the working stiff, while the rich sip wine in the South of France, what you see in Wisconsin is just a preview of what's going to happen...

excon

This is a whole different discussion that incorporates the need of the state to run institutions of higher education ;whether there has been an over emphasis in the need for the standard college degree and many other priority issues. I've been keeping the discussion here to the primary and secondary education systems since they are mandated.

But the problem you're missing then is that primary and secondary teachers do not get tenure. NOR do they get the salaries and benefits of university teachers. Not even CLOSE. Please remember that most of the primary and secondary teachers have a starting salary of about $25k, and it doesn't go up much for the first several years they teach. Most of them hold second jobs to make ends meet and pay off their student loans. Second--where does the money come from, then? Is each school district then subject to ONLY what the local taxpayers pay for the school, and funded completely that way? Or do you go by a quota system? A testing system? How do you determine which school districts get how much money?

I can tell you right now that local funding doesn't work. That's the most quick way to make inequalities evident in schools. If rich areas can afford to buy new computers, new classroom equipment, and pay more for teachers, then poor areas (like.. say... North Minneapolis) get squat, and they have to LIKE it. They get crappy teachers that are desperate for ANY job, they get no new equipment, they get buildings that are not up to date. They get over-crowded classrooms and gang wars on campus.

Quota systems? Nope, they don't work either. Having a quota of certain grades, or certain ethnicities, etc, has never done anything but make for a segregated school.

Testing system? Ask TX how well THAT works. Their teachers get paid by how many of their students pass a state standardized test. So guess what? They teach that test, and ONLY that test. Kids don't learn how to learn--they learn how to spit out the facts that will probably be on the test.



I disagree with the premise of the 1st paragraph. It's become a parody ;the road crew with 4 people watching the 5th filling a pot hole ;but too often that represents reality . Since we are talking education ,I'll stick to that . Everything beyond the teaching force and a few adminstrators could easily be contracted out . Private colleges hire food services ;why can't public ? Private businesses contract out maintainance services ,why can't public ? I'd bet anything the level of performace would improve .

You have to look at the larger picture for the answer to that. Part of the answer to that is easy: student workers. Student workers can ONLY work for the school. They cannot work for an outside entity. Our security and maintenance and cafeteria are subcontracted out. Student workers cannot work for them. But when I worked for a state school, those were some of the best student worker jobs, because the hours were consistent. You can pay student workers minimum wage to perform these jobs, and actually DO keep costs down as compared to giving it to the private sector. Again, I work at a proprietary school, so we don't have a lot of choice on what is contracted and what stays in-house. But state schools pay student workers to man security desks, work in the cafeteria, clean hallways and common areas, work front desk positions, perform basic "maintenance" such as shoveling and cleaning grounds, and run computer labs. All at minimum wage (or so... some of those jobs pay a whopping $9 an hour), and all with no benefits.

Maybe the level of performance WOULD improve with not using student workers. But the cost would SKYROCKET.

Fact-The budget deficit he has to fix was one he created by cutting corporate taxes to the rich, thus destroying valuable revenue.

Fact-teachers, and other state workers have to make up that deficit I revenues that was created.

Fact-Its not just unions that will be affected by these cuts but all the taxpayers of Wisconsin.

Fact-State workers pay taxes and use the services that other state workers provide. For example teachers getting to school on highways and streets that other state workers have plowed.

Fact-This governor has already cost the state money when he was the budget director of Milwaukee county. The are still paying for his illegal union busting attempts.

Fact-While he seeks to take the rights of Union workers away, he has given himself the power to decide what gets sold, and services contracted by the state, without the benefit of the state bidding process. HMMM! Who will BENEFIT? (See Koch Bros).

Fact- Not the taxpayers.

A friend of mine sent this joke figured I'd share it with you since we are on this subject. Im not a big fan of unions but I understand.
A unionized public employee, an ill-inform­ed citizen, and a CEO are sitting at a table. In the middle of the table is a plate with a dozen cookies on it. The CEO reaches across and takes 11 cookies, looks at the ill-inform­ed citizen and says, "Watch out for that union guy. He wants a piece of your cookie."

"Watch out for that union guy. He wants a piece of your cookie."Hello again, spit:

Dude! That's hilarious. What makes it so, is that it's SOOOOO close to reality. In fact, it IS reality. It's what FOX news does every day. They take an absolutely ridiculous argument (like that guy wants YOUR cookie), and offer experts all day long, to explain that it's true - that bastard WANTS your cookie. I posted on this very subject over on the FOX and Canada thread. Your joke FITS my post like a glove.

excon

Hey Ex
You can repost it if you like.

As an aside, I just realized that Spitvenom's name doesn't have an E after the T.

I've literally spent a couple years thinking your name was SpitEvenom, not Spitvenom.

I'm so blonde.

HAHAHAA No spite. spitvenom is a hip hop term for someone who is amazing in freestyle battles. This person can think of rhymes off the top of their head that makes sense.

Hello again, spit:

Dude! That's hilarious. What makes it so, is that it's SOOOOO close to reality. In fact, it IS reality. It's what FOX news does every day. They take an absolutely ridiculous argument (like that guy wants YOUR cookie), and offer experts all day long, to explain that it's true - that bastard WANTS your cookie. I posted on this very subject over on the FOX and Canada thread. Your joke FITS my post like a glove.

excon

FACT-The public, nor the state pays for any part of the unions health insurance, OR pension plans!! This money comes from a fund that the worker pays into, Through COLLECTIVE BARGAINING, from their own paychecks that they agreed to instead of taking wage increases over the years. That's the way it works.

So how does cutting pay, AND putting more of their check into their own pension fund save the state? IT DOESN'T! It only makes payroll obligations smaller, but not enough to balance the tax cuts he has already given. That's what his cuts to cities and towns is about. The goal is still getting the wage earners in the state to balance his new budget, by their local budgets.

I titled the OP 'the choice ' .The choice is either get their salary and compensation in line with the public sector or face layoffs. The State budget can no longer afford gold plated compensation for public employees.

The Legislature allows the collective bargaining and the legislature can change it. NO ONE is talking about renaging on the existing contract. But when that contract comes up it's likely they will be playing under more rational rules .

And this couldn't be done by just rescinding the big business tax cuts?

Why should the average person pay more and lose more when the very rich are getting more and keeping more?

You cannot make up the budget shortfalls in either State ,local ,or Federal budgets by 'taxing the rich' to death. But it's the only one size fits all argument the populists have had in this country since the days of Jackson.

You can't make up budget problems by GIVING TAX CUTS to businesses/the rich, EITHER.

I wouldn't give up MY collective bargaining after tax CUTS to big businesses, either.

If *I* must sacrifice, the RICH must sacrifice, too.

And if there's enough money to give the rich tax cuts, then there's enough to give them to the rest of us too.

I'm REALLY sick of the top 1% of this country's rich controlling 42% of the nation's wealth. Yes, people should get to EARN money and keep it---but they should be subject to the SAME taxes as the rest of us.

You can't make up budget problems by GIVING TAX CUTS to businesses/the rich, EITHER.

And States can't force businesses to remain in high tax rate states. Here in NY we've seen all types of business flight as the state tried to tax to death businesses to pay for their bloated budgets .

Yeah that worked temporarily when things were prosperous . But now,all the states that remained tied to that flawed model are getting a dose of reality . Even NY's liberal Governor Andrew Cuomo has ridden the road to Damascus on that !

Yes, people should get to EARN money and keep it---but they should be subject to the SAME taxes as the rest of us.


We are in complete agreement . The wealthy 1 % do pay about half the taxes. We all should pay the same... 1 flat rate ,no deductions.

And this couldn't be done by just rescinding the big business tax cuts?

Why should the average person pay more and lose more when the very rich are getting more and keeping more?

Tax the businesses and they have to raise the prices of their products to recover that money... and who still pays for it? Right, you do.

You don't see a lot of job providers OR job creation in the projects... but go to the weathier suburbs and you do... its THEY who create many of the jobs along with a lot of middle class people.

Make it too expensive to hire or produce here and the jobs go overseas... or away entirely.

Let the 38% who pay no taxes pay their fair share... and see how popular handouts are going to be when they have to pay for them, themselves.

Class warfare is a typical socialist and Democrat ploy... a certain group is blamed for the poor choices and decisions another group makes... and the group that makes the right choices is expected to be penalized for doing the right thing while the group that doesn't is rewarded for doing all the wrong things.


Seems perfectly logical why so much work has gone overseas when you look at it that way.

THere is what's nice to wish for... then there is reality. A business exists to make money... not provide welfare. It cost money and hard work to make a business that can make money, then people want to take away any profits then did make but did nothing to help them along the way, where the rule is... make a profit or close up. You can't run a business that's always losing money for long. Make it impossible to make money one place, and they will move it to a place more friendly to them. And many times that's overseas.

And I did once work in manufacturing... I left it because I didn't make enough to have been worth attending college and pay for a decade of debt. And the work I did... could NOT be done by any high school grad without advanced degree. And most of those places moved production overseas later. THe problems I saw wasn't the higher ups specifically... but the bloated middle and upper management ranks. Too many paper pushers... for too few workers. Few of them fit the rich guy mould.

I'd tell you what one of those things were... but everyone would know what it was and it could pin me down to a handful of people so I won't.

FACT-Taxing the rich to death is impossible.

FACT-Tax cuts and loop holes give them the cash to go overseas and hire slave labor!

FACT- You think the slaves over there can afford to buy what they make? No they send it back here for you to buy.

FACT- We are going back to slavery, and your skin color won"t matter one bit. The size of your "GREEN" WILL.

YOU READY TO NEGOTIATE YET?

Lol the biggest phonies are the sanctimonious rich like Warren Buffett who shelters his income and complains his secretary pays more taxes than he.

Smoothy is 100 % correct in pointing out that taxes are overhead that get passed on to the consumer in higher prices. FACT

Here is the lib rhyme... don't tax you ,don't tax me ,tax that man behind the tree.

"The American Republic will endure, until politicians realize they can bribe the people with their own money."
— Alexis de Tocqueville

FACT-Taxing the rich to death is impossible.

FACT-Tax cuts and loop holes give them the cash to go overseas and hire slave labor!!

FACT- You think the slaves over there can afford to buy what they make? No they send it back here for you to buy.

FACT- We are going back to slavery, and your skin color won"t matter one bit. The size of your "GREEN" WILL.

YOU READY TO NEGOTIATE YET?

Really... on what planet? People buy what they can afford... what you call slave labor is anything but. They can quit... and go back to dirt farming which apparently was worse than they do now.

Slave labor did and has existed (and some places does exist undoubtedly)... but products of slave labor aren't allowed to be imported here by federal law. If you know something customs doesn't, give them a call, I encourage it.

Try and tax a rich guys savings... and his money is coming out of acessible means and being hidden.

Really think that's all that hard to do? It isn't. I'm not rich (except for maybe sub-saharan or third world standards) and even I don't have all my money in places democrats can reach. Or even on these shores.

The point is this:

I would fight for not losing my collective bargaining rights when the state gave tax CUTS to big businesses.

Wisconsin SUCKS for businesses. It really does. But it's AWESOME at education.

How about this? Stop giving STATE grants to people to go to school? I didn't get one, and I was in the upper end of LOWER class when I went to college the first time. I dragged MYSELF out of that environment, so I know it can be done. You can't tell me that I got more opportunities than other people, because I WORKED for my opportunities.

Get rid of welfare and you've solved the state budget problem. End of story.

And actually--can't we place some of the blame for this mess back on the mortgage companies? If so many people weren't in foreclosure due to the housing bubble and bad loans, wouldn't the cities/states still have property tax coming in? Yet I don't see the banks having to make up that difference, or the mortgage companies. As a matter of fact, we BAILED THEM OUT!

And now we've got to give up things like collective bargaining (but not tax cuts for businesses!) so that we can cover the lost revenue that the banks and mortgage companies lost us?

That sounds like a scam, to me.

QUOTE by smoothy;
Really... on what planet? People buy what they can afford... what you call slave labor is anything but. They can quit... and go back to dirt farming which apparently was worse than they do now.

Slave labor did and has existed (and some places does exist undoubtedly)... but products of slave labor aren't allowed to be imported here by federal law. If you know something customs doesn't, give them a call, I encourage it.

All due respect, but when Walmart, Nike, Chevy, and Caterpillar can manufacture goods overseas and send them back to you for our comsumption, that's slavery.

When public servants are dictated to, that's slavery. And a lot of slavery, without the whips and chains, has always gone on in the USA, until the workers formed unions that changed dictating terms with no choices, into negotiating those choices. Ask any blue collar worker about the conditions BEFORE the unions were formed. Oh I forgot, those factories, and mills have left for the cheap slave labor in other less developed countries. My bad!!


Try and tax a rich guys savings... and his money is coming out of acessible means and being hidden.

Really think that's all that hard to do? It isn't. I'm not rich (except for maybe sub-saharan or third world standards) and even I don't have all my money in places democrats can reach. Or even on these shores.

Wonder where a dirt farmer hides his money, (what money? He has none to hide!).

FACT-Big business is not making jobs, or investing in America for ONE reason, he wants the work rules changed in his favor to go along with all those tax cuts, shelters, and Tax breaks he wants.

FACT- Unions didn't cause this recesion, or the deficits that followed. The guys with the money did, and guess what, workers are footing their bill.

FACT-There was no deficit in Wisconsin until the govenormade one, with his tax breaks.

Forget the feelings, deal with the facts!

Ready to negotiate yet??

Have you slaughtered any sacred cows lately? It seems someone is trying to drag a sacred cow to the altar and the faithful true believers of the union movement are objecting.

Inevietably you can keep your sacred cows only at the cost of food for the faithful

Have you slaughtered any sacred cows lately? It seems someone is trying to drag a sacred cow to the altar and the faithful true believers of the union movement are objecting.

Inevietably you can keep your sacred cows only at the cost of food for the faithful

Unions are not sacred cows. They are the difference to being dictated to, and talked with.

Unions are not sacred cows. They are the difference to being dictated to, and talked with.

You obviously misunderstood the analogy, the Unions are the faithful, the sacred cows are their cherished conditions. What the Governor is trying to do is to slaughter the sacred cows, the conditions the workers have won through barganing. The Governor is using a different form of barganing where he denies conditions formerly agreed and seeks to establish a new norm by decree. I don't suggest he is right to do this, far from it. Such tactics are Union busting

You obviously misunderstood the analogy, the Unions are the faithful, the sacred cows are their cherished conditions. What the Governor is trying to do is to slaughter the sacred cows, the conditions the workers have won through barganing. The Governor is using a different form of barganing where he denies conditions formerly agreed and seeks to establish a new norm by decree. I don't suggest he is right to do this, far from it. Such tactics are Union busting

Sorry I did indeed misunderstand. We should have negotiated the meaning of sacred cows.

All due respect, but when Walmart, Nike, Chevy, and Catapillar can manufacture goods overseas and send them back to you for our comsumption, thats slavery.

When public servants are dictated to, thats slavery. And a lot of slavery, without the whips and chains, has always gone on in the USA, until the workers formed unions that changed dictating terms with no choices, into negotiating those choices. Ask any blue collar worker about the conditions BEFORE the unions were formed. Oh I forgot, those factories, and mills have left for the cheap slave labor in other less developed countries. My bad!!!



Wonder where a dirt farmer hides his money, (what money? He has none to hide!).

FACT-Big business is not making jobs, or investing in America for ONE reason, he wants the work rules changed in his favor to go along with all those tax cuts, shelters, and Tax breaks he wants.

FACT- Unions didn't cause this recesion, or the deficits that followed. The guys with the money did, and guess what, workers are footing their bill.

FACT-There was no deficit in Wisconsin until the govenormade one, with his tax breaks.

Forget the feelings, deal with the facts!!

Ready to negotiate yet???

I deal with the facts... but the left doesn't.

If a unionized public servant being dictated to is slavery... then what is the taxpayer that's being told how much they WILL hand over to them? Extortion?

What is a non-union employee that's told what he will and won't do by their boss... or they are fired is that slavery too?

slav·er·y   /ˈsleɪvəri, ˈsleɪvri/ Show Spelled
[sley-vuh-ree, sleyv-ree]
–noun
1. the condition of a slave; bondage.
2. the keeping of slaves as a practice or institution.
3. a state of subjection like that of a slave: He was kept in slavery by drugs.
4. severe toil; drudgery.
Use slavery in a Sentence
See images of slavery
Search slavery on the Web

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Origin:
1545–55; slave + -ery

—Related forms
pre·slav·er·y, adjective, noun


—Synonyms
1. thralldom, enthrallment. Slavery, bondage, servitude refer to involuntary subjection to another or others. Slavery emphasizes the idea of complete ownership and control by a master: to be sold into slavery. Bondage indicates a state of subjugation or captivity often involving burdensome and degrading labor: in bondage to a cruel master. Servitude is compulsory service, often such as is required by a legal penalty: penal servitude. 4. moil, labor.

FACT - Walmart negotiates its discounts in huge volumes... THey don't buy things by the case, or even a shipping container... they buy entire production runs. So of course... they get the lowest price. Does anyone HAVE to sell to Walmart at the prices Walmart wants to pay... nope. I challeng you to prove any instances of strongarm tactics of "you will sell it to us for this price or we break some kneecaps" by Walmart.

FACT - Dirt farmers aren't going to work in factories because they would be shot if they didn't. They do it because it pays better money. They do it by choice. Its not slavery if you can come by choice and can leave by choice.

FACT - Unions had a BIG part of the mess states are in... because previous democrat administrations gave the unions whatever they wanted and in turn the Unions gave the democrats large ammounts of money that was exterorted from their rank and file... many of whom did not agree with WHO was getting it. State empoyee Pension funding is a HUGE financial burdern for most states... this includes Teachers.

FACT -... the housing bubble and crisis was a result of Democrat policies that everyone is entitled to get a house if they can actually pay for it or not... it wasn't rich people who could.

FACT - Welfare recipients, Illegals and the Lazy people don't create jobs... the wealthy do. Poor peole don't found and run most businesses, much less most businesses that hire people.

FACT - Wisconsins debt is VERY real... Just like Californias... New Yorks, and a number of other states. The people the argue there is no debt are the same people that ignore the proven fact Obama quadrupled the national debt in just 2 years, and fixate on the much smaller debt of a previous administration over 8 years.

FACT - Every State gives tax breaks to get or keep employers. Business taxes are always passed on via higher product costs.

How about taxing Hollywood, How about taxing major league sports the same way the left wants to punish Businesses.

How about not allowing Unions to contribute to political campaigns.

How about making Congress, the Senate and the Executive branch subject to every one of the same laws they impose on the rest of us.

I deal with the facts.....but the left doesn't.

..then what is the taxpayer thats being told how much they WILL hand over to them? Extortion?Hello smoothy:

Let me ask you about THIS fact.. When you negotiated your salary, does your boss think you extorted him?? Is he HANDING over his money to you, or do you earn it?

I don't know why the right wing has so much trouble with English.

excon

Hello smoothy:

Lemme ask you about THIS fact.. When you negotiated your salary, does your boss think you extorted him??? Is he HANDING over his money to you, or do you earn it?

I dunno why the right wing has so much trouble with English.

excon

Hey... it was the left that brought up having to negotiate wages as being equal to slavery.

When I negotiated my salary when I first got this job... there were over 800 other applicants (yes they gave me an exact number after I was hired) they could have chosen any of them if they didn't like what I wanted. I wasn't the only applicant. The fact they picked me and what I asked for indicated it was a good deal for them. And there were no threats and intimidation involved.

FACT - Wilmart negotiates its discounts in huge volumes... THey don't buy things by the case, or even a shipping container... they buy entire production runs. So of course... they get the lowest price. Does anyone HAVE to sell to Walmart at the prices Walmart wants to pay... nope. I challenge you to prove any instances of strong arm tactics of "you will sell it to us for this price or we break some kneecaps" by Walmart.
And who makes or produces those runs? Yeah some underpaid and overworked third world non educated worker in a sweatshop, who just wants a bowl of rice.a day, and twice if they are lucky. How does 20 cents a day rise you above slavery? Workers don't negotiate, they do or they go hungry. How is that a choice?



FACT - Dirt farmers aren't going to work in factories because they would be shot if they didn't. They do it because it pays better money. They do it by choice. Its not slavery if you can come by choice and can leave by choice.
Survival and wanting better for you and yours is a natural human condition, and like you,they want a choice to be better than dirt farmers.Like you negotiated YOUR contract and they accepter, that's what unions want to. To negotiate, and yes unions have options, when the boss doesn't agree, as does the boss when he doesn't agree.


FACT - Unions had a BIG part of the mess states are in... because previous democrat administrations gave the unions whatever they wanted and in turn the Unions gave the democrats large amounts of money that was extorted from their rank and file... many of whom did not agree with WHO was getting it. State employee Pension funding is a HUGE financial burden for most states... this includes Teachers.
That's not a fact, and be they democratic or republican, the states problems were caused by wall street, not main street. You just think that main street should pay, because wall street says SCREW YOU! In case you haven't noticed, all the unions have negotiated, or will to negotiate all the finances that have been put to them, ALL!! From the Auto industry, to the teachers union. Now that's a fact!!


FACT -... the housing bubble and crisis was a result of Democrat policies that everyone is entitled to get a house if they can actually pay for it or not... it wasn't rich people who could.
Untrue, the bubble was greed induced starting at wall street, and that's a fact. They took the easiest route, and lied about value as they LET anyone sign up and things were great until the banking crisis hit the fan, which was about wall street, not main street. They screwed every bank in the world and got off Scott free for now, but rest assured, every dog will have its day.


FACT - Welfare recipients, Illegals and the Lazy people don't create jobs... the wealthy do. Poor Pele don't found and run most businesses, much less most businesses that hire people.
So haven't you noticed the recession the wealthy have caused is making more poor people? What have the wealthy done to correct that problem?


FACT - Wisconsin's debt is VERY real... Just like Californias... New Yorks, and a number of other states. The people the argue there is no debt are the same people that ignore the proven fact Obama quadrupled the national debt in just 2 years, and fixate on the much smaller debt of a previous administration over 8 years.
This president saved the world economy, and the wealthy people sat on their money.


FACT - Every State gives tax breaks to get or keep employers. Business taxes are always passed on via higher product costs.
Mo money, mo money, how rich can you get? How much more should workers give after the rich so called job creators have gotten richer, without getting off their big rich asses? That's why there is a deficit. Just look at the tax cuts and who gets them. There is your deficit. Trickle down economics has never worked, and has always lead to a recession, or depression, that's history, and those are facts, and that's the goal of the right wing.

How about taxing Hollywood, How about taxing major league sports the same way the left wants to punish Businesses.
Check your tax code, they already do.
How about not allowing Unions to contribute to political campaigns.
How about not allowing corporations and right wing supply side fat cats not to contribute to campaigns either?

How about making Congress, the Senate and the Executive branch subject to every one of the same laws they impose on the rest of us.
We agree, right down to health care like they have.

This president saved the world economy, and the wealthy people sat on their money.


Thanks for the laugh of the day. He could've saved the economy if he reversed TARP after he was sworn in and let the zombies die.

Instead he prolonged the agony... and then ,like a good community organizer ,he and his cohorts in Congress stole even more of our tax money to give to zombie states to
Shell out to his buddies in the public service unions .

You and others here are quick to condemn the rich at the same time you defend the actions of a President who has gone along with the crony merchantilism he claims to oppose. Why is it that all he knows to do is get advice from Goldman Sach operatives (or more recently from JP Morgan's William Daley) ?

It's your President who perpetuates the system that allows banks to operate with no sense of moral hazard. Had they been allowed to crash and burn we would've been no worse off ,and most likely much better than we are today.

thanks for the laugh of the day. He could've saved the economy if he reversed TARP after he was sworn in and let the zombies die.

Instead he prolonged the agony....and then ,like a good community organizer ,he and his cohorts in Congress stole even more of our tax money to give to zombie states to
shell out to his buddies in the public service unions .

You and others here are quick to condemn the rich at the same time you defend the actions of a President who has gone along with the crony merchantilism he claims to oppose. Why is it that all he knows to do is get advice from Goldman Sach operatives (or more recently from JP Morgan's William Daley) ?

It's your President who perpetuates the system that allows banks to operate with no sense of moral hazard. Had they been allowed to crash and burn we would've been no worse off ,and most likely much better than we are today.

Plus they fail to recognise... Obama IS one of the rich. Want to bet he isn't handing over HIS money for the greater good of the socilist movement, and has plans to protect it? I don't know how much he actually has but I know it exceedes $5 million dollars in savings alone, not counting all the oil stocks he's pushing higher so he can cash in before he or someone else wakes up and lets us tap our own oil.



Oooooooo the Mesiah is one of those he pretends to hate so much.

And who makes or produces those runs? Yeah some underpaid and overworked third world non educated worker in a sweatshop, who just wants a bowl of rice.a day, and twice if they are lucky. How does 20 cents a day rise you above slavery? Workers don't negotiate, they do or they go hungry. How is that a choice?



Survival and wanting better for you and yours is a natural human condition, and like you,they want a choice to be better than dirt farmers.Like you negotiated YOUR contract and they accepter, thats what unions want to. To negotiate, and yes unions have options, when the boss doesn't agree, as does the boss when he doesn't agree.


Thats not a fact, and be they democratic or republican, the states problems were caused by wall street, not main street. You just think that main street should pay, because wall street says SCREW YOU!! In case you haven't noticed, all the unions have negotiated, or will to negotiate all the finances that have been put to them, ALL!!! From the Auto industry, to the teachers union. Now thats a fact!!!


Untrue, the bubble was greed induced starting at wall street, and thats a fact. They took the easiest route, and lied about value as they LET anyone sign up and things were great until the banking crisis hit the fan, which was about wall street, not main street. They screwed every bank in the world and got off Scott free for now, but rest assured, every dog will have its day.

Underpaid by WHAT standards...

Silicon Valley, Manhattan, Washington DC? Or are we talking about Calcutta, Louisiana, or Sudan.


Before you toss around that number... I am underpaid by the standards of certain locations... but I don't live or work there... nor do the places that produce these goods.

Wall street was the cash cow of the Democrats... not the republicans. Look at campaign donations to prove it... those are public record.

So are Lawyers... in most lawsuits it's the lawyers that get the most money... not the people who deserve the awards.

You don't NEED unions to negotiat... in fact when a union is involved... the individual doesn't negotiate AT ALL... a union thug does it under a pay up or else threat, you take whatever you get. In some cases LIKE teachers Unions... once you have Tenure... you can do almost anything and you can't be fired... like THAT is really good for anyone. And incidentally... Union negotiated pay increases don't keep pace with private industry in many cases. I've been on both sides... I got far higher annual raises as a non-union worker than I did as a Union worker. And at least as a non-union worker... I wasn't handing over around $100+ a month for someone else to bribe officials of the party I detest with MY money.

The Real Estate Bubble contrary to Democrat propaganda started under Clinton when there was a lawsuit forcing banks to give mortgages to people with poor credit histories... because it was unfair a high credit risk individual should be denied his right to screw a bank out of huge sums of money when they don't pay their mortgage.

Fanni mae , and Freddie Mac had both ands and feet in that and OBAMA was they gave the most money to Obama. Chris Dodd was in it up to his nose.

But then... CBS, NPR, CNN and MSNBC have never been guilty of telling the whole truth. They regurgitate what the DNC tells them to say, word for word.

Thanks for making my point fellas. If you are stuck on the right, and I am stuck on the left, why not meet in the middle and honestly negotiate so we both can benefit? Or else neither of us makes progress.

So it is in Wisconsin, and everywhere else. Ready to negotiate yet??

Anyone notice that Ohio just pushed it through and let WI deal with the publicity?

The more I read about this, the more I'm realizing that our entire economic system is inherently flawed--mostly because of a distinct lack of ethics on the part of big business.

And before ANY of you argue against that, please be aware that I can name at least 10 companies that have acted in a horrible manner to society in the last 30 years, and probably more. The lack of social responsibility and screwing the public to continue to get richer is what makes most people completely against big business.

I've been trying for over a year to figure out a way to boycott GE. You know what? It's pretty much impossible. They own too much to get away from them.

Anyone notice that Ohio just pushed it through and let WI deal with the publicity?Morning, Synn:

I notice everything...

If leaving the state would have stopped the legislature in Ohio from ramming this piece of crap through, the Democrats WOULD have done it. Unfortunately, even WITHOUT the Democrats, the Republicans HAVE a quorum in Ohio, and would have voted it through anyway.

But, the Wisconsin Democrats can still win... If they don't, they'll be snatching DEFEAT from the jaws of victory. The public is with them, overwhelmingly. The wind is at their back. All they have to do is open their mouth... They'll go down in history as the Wisconsin 14 who SAVED America. There will be schools named after them.

But, they won't. One of 'em will cave. Personally, I don't know what's wrong with a hotel in Chicago.. They allow conjugal visits in Chicago, aren't they?

excon

Thanks for making my point fellas. If you are stuck on the right, and I am stuck on the left, why not meet in the middle and honestly negotiate so we both can benefit?? or else neither of us makes progress.

So it is in Wisconsin, and everywhere else. Ready to negotiate yet??

There is no room for negotiation. For the states this is an existential issue. Walker has given fair warning.Pink slips go out today.

There is so much other crap in the Wisconsin bill, that it seems that the delay gave us all a chance to really start reading it, and the people there are seeing that they are about to get screwed all together. Like paying for kids in private schools, with already rich parents and taking 900 million of the public schools?

Add that to the Ohio house shenanigans, boy what's going on in this country?

The one to watch though, is Bully boy Christie in NJ, the cops are demonstrating in Trenton over his bill.

I've been trying for over a year to figure out a way to boycott GE. You know what? It's pretty much impossible. They own too much to get away from them.

You can start by not watching the pin heads at MSNBC... and opposing Obamacare ;a proposition largely the idea of GE and their 'healthymagination'campaign.

It was no surprise that when Immelt left GE he went through that revolving door into the White House .

Obama names GE's Immelt head of new jobs council - The Oval: Tracking the Obama presidency (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/theoval/post/2011/01/obama-names-ges-immelt-head-of-new-jobs-council/1)

There is so much other crap in the Wisconsin bill, that it seems that the delay gave us all a chance to really start reading it, and the people there are seeing that they are about to get screwed all together. Like paying for kids in private schools, with already rich parents and taking 900 million of of the public schools?

Add that to the Ohio house shenanigans, boy whats going on in this country?

The one to watch though, is Bully boy Christie in NJ, the cops are demonstrating in Trenton over his bill.

Christe can't do much until the good people of NJ dump the Dems in the Legislature.

You can start by not watching the pin heads at MSNBC ... and opposing Obamacare ;a proposition largely the idea of GE and their 'healthymagination'campaign.

It was no suprise that when Immelt left GE he went through that revolving door into the White House .

Obama names GE's Immelt head of new jobs council - The Oval: Tracking the Obama presidency (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/theoval/post/2011/01/obama-names-ges-immelt-head-of-new-jobs-council/1)

I've been against Obamacare from the first. You think I'm a democrat a lot, when I'm not. I'm closer to a Centrist than anything. In fact, I'd like to see political parties banned entirely. And I absolutely did NOT vote for Obama.

Hello again, tom:

Are these the same jobs the super wealthy are going to create because we gave them their needed tax cut??? Or are these other jobs??? We're gonna be in job heaven pretty soon aren't we??? That was what you promised, isn't it??? Ok. We GAVE the richest amongst us a HUGE tax break.. Didn't we do that because they can't create jobs with "uncertainty" in the air.. So, we removed the "uncertainty", and the jobs are coming, aren't they??? AREN'T THEY???

Or, is this "job" crap, like the last "job" crap?

excon
http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2011/03/good-news-in-jobs-report-as-unemployment-rate-dips-under-9-percent.html

Hello again, tom:

Somehow, I think if the job numbers wouldn't have been positive, it would have been Obamas fault. But, since they're rosy, you guys take the credit..

Besides, curbing a woman's right to choose does NOT increase jobs, and that's the only thing the right wing congress has done.

excon

Nearly all of those jobs listed are unskilled labor, or low skilled white collar. Health Care was the only area I saw that required a degree--and most of the areas in health care that are hiring are the 1-2 year degrees, NOT the 4-12 year degrees.

I see nothing there about IT or engineering. I don't see anything about art and design areas (architecture, photography, advertising, etc) at all.

Great--the low skilled people can go back to work. A little.

Those with higher degrees who used to make 6 figures (and who are collecting the highest "salaries" on unemployment---those people are still stuck looking for a job that isn't the equivalent of a Walmart greeter compared to their old job.

Woohoo... great job politicians! You've managed to convince ME that you want us all to be drones grateful for our hotel lobby desk clerk jobs!

Do they not deserve jobs too ? Manufacturing jobs and construction both made big gains . I think I'll take them over art and photography if you don't mind .

Sure they deserve jobs too! And they probably NEED the jobs more.

Now someone get me the numbers on how many people were laid off over the last several years in those areas.

I'm just saying that it's all well and good that those areas got jobs. But there are a LOT of areas that are still struggling, and many of those areas are the upper middle class jobs, rather than the lower middle to upper lower class jobs.

There is no room for negotiation. For the states this is an existential issue. Walker has given fair warning.Pink slips go out today.

The first thing he did was give tax cuts for the rich and holler broke, when they had a looming surplus coming, while many of his fair minded colleagues balanced their budgets in other states by raising taxes on the rich, AND making less drastic cuts to the private unions AND the cities, AND without cutting rights, giving away utilities to campaign contributors, AND paying for private schools for the rich kids.

Come on talan why so glum ? Look at the unemployment numbers today... it's Friday night... lets party!!

YouTube - "Happy Days are Here Again!" (Ben Selvin and the Crooners, 1930) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqsT4xnKZPg)

Right... lets triple the taxes for the rich and businesses in Michigan and drive out ALL the wealthy people and business then who will be there to pay for all the welfare bums and entitlement programs then. Because they will ALL leave and go someplace less socialistic.

They are rich after all and can afford to... or do you just recommend jailing them and just seizing their assets for redistribution to people who can't tie their own shoes before they can take what they earned and move?

We don't have to triple the taxes of the rich, just bring them into a better alignment that is conducive to better circulation.

Hmmm the "RICH" already pay MOST of the collected taxes now... you want a better alignment... make the 38% that's not paying any pay their share... or even better... FLAT TAX where everyone pays an equal percentage of their income. THAT is as perfectly aligned as you can get.

Conducive to circulation where everyone gets a benefit, and passes it on, is better for all, and would end the hoarding that causes the imbalance in the economy.

And poor people can't BUY a politician to make laws for them or can they? And by your line of thinking they have all the money so they should pay for deficits, and shortfalls, especially since they caused them.

What they can't be expected to fix their own mess? Why do I have to bail out a rich cat who screwed everything up?

So its rape the people who worked hard to be a success to give it to those that didn't make the effort or sacrifices needed? Typical Socialism.

WHy make ANY effort if its going to be taken from you. I suppose everyone should be paid the same regardless of what their job is too? Doctor or janitor.

Its not rape to expect the rich to do their part, nor is it rape for them to fix their messes. How is it socialism to expect someone to act responsibly?

As far as doctors and janitors, the are equal under the law. Two humans who work hard at what they do, at honest labor. But should the janitor pay for the doctors mistakes? Why does one have more value as a human than the other? Oh that's right, a Swiss bank account makes the doctor a better human than a paycheck to paycheck janitor.

We are not talking socialism, just being fair and put the blame where it lays, at the hands of those that profit on the backs of others and whose greed, or disregard, has caused all this screw up that a dwindling middle class is paying for. Look who cares how rich someone is, but when I screw up there are consequences, but when a rich guy screws up he is rewarded with more, and I pay for it. How is that fair?

The janitor didn't screw the economy up, why should he pay to fix it??

Okay, I'm more "Who is John Galt" than most people I meet. I'm ABSOLUTELY against socialism.

But I hate the fact that the rich can get richer using off-shore labor instead of being forced to use their tax cuts to hire here in the U.S.

Fine, give companies tax cuts. But make those tax cuts CONTINGENT upon hiring x% of U.S. workers, and x% of their suppliers MUST come from a U.S. company, operating on U.S. soil. And those cuts are ALSO contingent upon the company operating in the state they take those cuts in for X number of years---and I'm thinking more like 20 years than like 2 years.

The fact is that the rich keep getting richer because they can pay 3rd world country labor costs and sell at United States prices.

Okay, I'm more "Who is John Galt" than most people I meet. I'm ABSOLUTELY against socialism.

But I hate the fact that the rich can get richer using off-shore labor instead of being forced to use their tax cuts to hire here in the U.S.

Fine, give companies tax cuts. But make those tax cuts CONTINGENT upon hiring x% of U.S. workers, and x% of their suppliers MUST come from a U.S. company, operating on U.S. soil. And those cuts are ALSO contingent upon the company operating in the state they take those cuts in for X number of years---and I'm thinking more like 20 years than like 2 years.

The fact is that the rich keep getting richer because they can pay 3rd world country labor costs and sell at United States prices.

Im sure your not talking about these people are you ?


The Poster Child For Worker Exploitation, Walmart Considering Offshore Outsourcing Jobs | The Economic Populist (http://www.economicpopulist.org/content/poster-child-worker-exploitation-walmart-considering-offshore-outsourcing-jobs)

I don't shop at Walmart, partly for that reason.

I don't shop at Walmart, partly for that reason.

The only thing I buy at Wallyworld is ammo. Other then that I try to buy and support my local people as best as I can.

Its not rape to expect the rich to do their part, nor is it rape for them to fix their messes. How is it socialism to expect someone to act responsibly?

As far as doctors and janitors, the are equal under the law. Two humans who work hard at what they do, at honest labor. But should the janitor pay for the doctors mistakes? Why does one have more value as a human than the other? Oh thats right, a Swiss bank account makes the doctor a better human than a paycheck to paycheck janitor.

We are not talking socialism, just being fair and put the blame where it lays, at the hands of those that profit on the backs of others and whose greed, or disregard, has caused all this screw up that a dwindling middle class is paying for. Look who cares how rich someone is, but when I screw up their are consequences, but when a rich guy screws up he is rewarded with more, and I pay for it. How is that fair?

The janitor didn't screw the economy up, why should he pay to fix it??

So... make the 38% who pay nothing now pay their share... they consume an inordinate amount... let them pay their fair share. Something they haven't been doing.

THe typical liberal is always generous with SOMEONE Else's MONEY.

THis is a novel concept for the left... but how about people paying their own way for once, instead of expecting someone else to be forced to pick up the tab.

Welfare bums who have done nothing their entire lives but collect a check and breed like rabbits AREN'T entitled to the money of those who have worked their butts off their entire life.

So...make the 38% who pay nothing now pay their share....they consume an inordinate ammount...let them pay their fair share. Something they haven't been doing.


Show me a rich guy who actually pays 38% of his income taxes, and I will show you a guy who is to dumb or cheap to have an accountant to take advantage of loopholes, and tax breaks.

Warren Buffett pays less taxes than his secretary.

Show me a rich guy who actually pays 38% of his income taxes, and I will show you a guy who is to dumb or cheap to have an accountant to take advantage of loopholes, and tax breaks.

Warren Buffett pays less taxes than his secretary.I can show you a lot of them... but then... do YOU define rich like Obama does... or the rest of us do.

Besides that 38% number are peole who pay NO income tax... and worse get money handed to them they never paid in the first place.

People who pay no tax shouldn't be getting thousands Back from it too.

Let them pay the same percentage they demand those of us who work hard pay. And No... I'm not rich even by Obamas rather lax standards.

You got something against the working poor? Try raising a family off a McDonald's and Walmart salary, with two kids. They work as hard as you do I'm sure.

If they're going to McDonald's, they're NOT that poor.

A family of 4 takes $20 to feed at McD's, and if you can afford THAT, you aren't poor enough to get Welfare.

*I* can't afford McDonald's except on a special occasion, and I make considerably more than the poverty level.

People do not DESERVE new things and meals out. People do not have the RIGHT to have nice things or spacious living quarters or McDonald's fries or whatever.

Welfare is meant to put food in bellies (not necessarily TASTY food--but healthy food) and a roof over your head. So what if your kids have to share a room and you have to shop at Goodwill? If you're living off the taxpayer dollars, you SHOULD be wearing hand-me-downs and eating Kix cereal and macaroni and cheese instead of Banquet meals and steak dinners.

And frankly, some of those people living on that Walmart salary need to learn to use their birth control correctly (or just USE it to begin with) or keep their zippers up. If you can't afford to FEED your children, you shouldn't HAVE children--and if circumstances mean you take a step down, you shouldn't have MORE children.

You got something against the working poor? Try raising a family off a McDonald's and Walmart salary, with two kids. They work as hard as you do I'm sure.

I got nothing against the working poor... I'm related to a lot of them... I grew up part of the working poor. Most of my relatives are still part of the working poor. I DO have something against ANYONE that feels they are entitled to what's in my wallet that I earned, And I don't come close to Obamas definition of rich... I might be rich by the standards of some backwater towns... but I don't live in one... and I don't even meet the median income in the area I live now.

And incidentally I got where I am through a hell of a lot of hard work and take exception to those who didn't that think they are entitled to a share of what I make. They ALL had the same opportunities I had (which was essentually no help what-so-ever because I was too not a minority)... most had MORE opportunities, it's their fault they didn't take them.

And yes I have had a lot of setbacks along the way I wasn't recompensed for when I made them... so why are they entitled to my earnings when I made the right choices then.


Familiar with the old saying... you reap what you sow? You aren't entitled to more than you put an effort into making.

That's the point though smoothy my friend, many of us work darn hard at honest work, and have to take what we can get. But every time we look around, somebody is telling us that because THEY screwed up, we have to pay. I feel the same as you do, but we seem to resent different people. I hate politician who tell me what my labor is worth while they keep making' money off my labor. I hate rich fat cats who have the money to give a politician for what he wants and all I can do is vote.

Hell there ain't even no negotiating about it if they have there way.

Hello again,

Hmmm... Looks to me like the Democrats have won. Turns out, their filibuster worked.

But, worse than that. Walker awakened a sleeping giant. Bummer for you wingers. As we've discussed on this thread, if Walker had been successful, he would have been the NEW Reagan. He would have been the 2016 presidential nominee. But, he's toast, isn't he? His ratings have PLUMMETED and are cratering daily. Poor fellow. Poor party. Looks like he went just a tad too far.

excon

Filibuster my butt . It's an irresponsible negligence of sworn duty .

I see no movement besides Walker's emails offering concessions .The Dems have done their Union masters bidding. What did I miss ?

The Dems are still AWOL out of state. If anything there is growing pressure on the Dems by the public to get back to work.

Walker has misplayed this slightly . He should decouple the Union issues from the budget and get a vote in the Senate with the existing quarum . You watch how fast the Dems would come running back if he did that .

Their demand that negotiations take place in Illinois is absurd. Let's see which movement gets bigger traction ;the movement to recall Walker(orchestrated shamelessly from the White House ) ,or the one to recall the Dems of the Senate .

Filibuster my butt . It's an irresponsible negligence of sworn duty . Hello again, tom:

SWORN duty, my butt. Show me what they SWORE to. Show me where they SWORE they wouldn't travel. Show me where they SWORE to sit in their seats. Show me where they SWORE to punch a time clock.

Look. You don't LIKE it. You don't like it because it WORKED. Using Roberts Rules of Order, the Wisconsin Senate made a RULE that a quorum needs to be present before a vote can be taken. If a quorum ISN'T present, a vote is BLOCKED. Those are the rules. I didn't make 'em up.

The United States Senate, using Roberts Rules of Order, has a rule that says if 60 Senators don't agree, a vote is BLOCKED. Those are the rules. I didn't make 'em up. You liked it when YOUR side was the BLOCKER, but it pisses you off when the other side does it.

The real problem here, is that your side ACTUALLY believes its righteous BS, that the Democrats are, how did you put it, "irresponsible and negligent". But, the truth is you got hornswaggeled by the same rules you used to hornswaggle the Democrats.

I say again, the duty of a legislator is to represent his constituency, and THESE Democrats did that EXTREMELY WELL. THAT is their job, and I don't care if they swore to it or not.

excon

And the Governor has lost nothing by giving a little round the unimportant things . He satsifies some of those endless polls conducted by pro-union organizations that say Walker should do some negotiations. He is still holding firm on the essential points of the Dems action ; increased pension and insurance contributions, and ending state collection of union dues.

The Unions know that they could never hold their rank and file if their dues were not confiscated from their paychecks.

He satsifies some of those endless polls conducted by pro-union organizations that say Walker should do some negotiations. Hello again, tom:

Rasmussen i (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_state_surveys/wisconsin/wisconsin_poll_support_for_budget_cutting_not_for_ weakening_collective_bargaining_rights)s pro union?? Dude! Here goes the spin.

excon

Its not over yet! But Walker is backing away from his No Negotiating rule. Hope it spreads to other states with these crazy corporate shills that are now governors.

Hey EX, see what they are trying to do in Michigan? Tell me this ain't a step back to the good old days where the rich master ordered the poor slaves around!

Recall 'em all, once and for all.

Lol Michigan is a basket case with it's misrule by the Dems for years . If I was you I would not hold up either Michigan or Detroit as a liberal success story.

Looks like the fleebaggers should have stuck around to do their jobs. They removed the financial aspects and passed the bill without the AWOL Dems.

passed the billHello again, Steve:

Passed? PASSED?? For a fellow who said the Dems rammed through the health care plan, you don't recognize RAMMED.

excon

Amazing that they passed it as NOT a fiscal item---but claimed it HAD to go through because of the "broke" budget.

This isn't over yet.

Funny how the left gets upset when the very same tactics they use over and over are used against them when they are in dereliction of duty.

They should not pay the democrats who have refused to show up for work. Just like every other working stiff in the country. You don't show up, then you don't get paid. See how quick the Dem's run back to Madison then.

Don't gloat to fast, its far from over. Matter of fact, its just getting started.

And they shouldn't pay the governor who SWEARS he is doing all of this for BUDGET reasons, but then pushes a bill through as "non-fiscal" so they can get the vote they WANT.

Those republicans that actually VOTED on it shouldn't be paid either. While they followed the LETTER of the law, they certainly didn't follow the SPIRIT of the law.

This country is seriously starting to make me sick. Why is it always "you damned democrats" and "you stupid republicans"? Why do we have parties that do nothing but block one another constantly, don't really do what their constituents want because it would break party lines, and a budget that has never been met? How about we stop PAYING politicians and giving them benefits until the budget is balanced. Think that would work?

Amazing that they passed it as NOT a fiscal item---but claimed it HAD to go through because of the "broke" budget.

This isn't over yet.

No it isn't... the White House ,butting in where it doesn't belong , is orchestrating recall petitions.

Just some political jiu jitsu .Let's say the Dems are now lurred back to Madison because they think this issue is finished except for court fights.. Then there is a quorum for a budget vote (the doors get locked by executive order ),and the measure gets reintroduced into the budget vote.
The Dems. Still lose because there is a clear majority in the Senate to pass the measure .

By the way... just checked Wi. Law. Yes Walker can be recalled... but not until he's served at least one year of his term. Petitions cannot begin until November. These recall petitions are obviously targeting Senators.

They lose THIS battle, but the WAR is hardly over.

Funny how the left gets upset when the very same tactics they use over and over are used against them when they are in dereliction of duty. Hello again, smoothy:

Couple things... I'm a RULES guy. I LIKE rules. If you KNOW the rules, you KNOW what you can DO. I KNOW the rules WELL. I USE the rules, and I use 'em HARD. I do it with NO shame or embarrassment. In fact, MOST people don't know the rules, and that's why I make mincemeat out of them.. You should be familiar with that.

Politics is a contact sport. Being a rules guy, I actually LOVE it when the rules are used against me. I don't get upset when that happens - I get even. But, one can't MAKE UP the rules, because I'll catch 'em. You should be familiar with that.

Speaking of RULES and DUTY (tom calls it their SWORN duty), rules are published. If you use the Google, if these "duties" are there to be found. You COULD find 'em and post a link... But, they're NOT there, are they?? You're just flapping your gums... In fact, those Democrats violated NO rules and did their duty to their constituents.

excon

This was the section of the law that the Senate used to issue arrest warrants on the truant Senators.

946.12 Misconduct in public office. Any public officer or public employee who does any of the following is guilty of a Class I felony:

946.12(1)
(1) Intentionally fails or refuses to perform a known mandatory, nondiscretionary, ministerial duty of the officer's or employee's office or employment within the time or in the manner required by law; or

946.12(3)
(3) Whether by act of commission or omission, in the officer's or employee's capacity as such officer or employee exercises a discretionary power in a manner inconsistent with the duties of the officer's or employee's office or employment or the rights of others and with intent to obtain a dishonest advantage for the officer or employee or another; or

http://law.justia.com/codes/wisconsin/2010/946/946.12.html

This was the section of the law that the Senate used to issue arrest warrants on the truant Senators.

946.12 Misconduct in public office. Any public officer or public employee who does any of the following is guilty of a Class I felony:

946.12(1)
(1) Intentionally fails or refuses to perform a known mandatory, nondiscretionary, ministerial duty of the officer’s or employee’s office or employment within the time or in the manner required by law;Hello again, tom:

I got it. If there ARE "known mandatory... DUTIES, or TIME frames", required of state senators, they're PUBLISHED. SHOW ME!!

Until you do, it's ALL MADE UP.

excon

Passed? PASSED??? For a fellow who said the Dems rammed through the health care plan, you don't recognize RAMMED.

As I recall, Republicans in congress stuck around and did their jobs during the 'debate' on Obamacare, they didn't cut and run like these fleebaggers did.

Clearly it is a debatable issue. The Attorney General would have to prove obstruction, and hope that the courts are amenable.

ABC News.com,
Meanwhile, polls have shown a public divided on how to rein in the state budget, but hungry for compromise. The latest poll from Wisconsin conducted for Wisconsin Policy Research Institute, a conservative think tank, by University of Wisconsin Professor Ken Goldstein and released over the weekend found just 33 percent wanted Gov. Walker to "stand strong for the plan he has proposed no matter how long the protests go on" versus a whopping 65 percent who want to see the governor "negotiate with Democrats and public employees' unions in order to find a compromise solution."

Seems it ain't all about just the unions, or the White House, But the Wisconsin public at large who are not happy with the way things are working out with this "elected" government. Tom, you started this with a reference to being broke in Wisconsin, well explain how you take all the surplus, turn it into a deficit with tax cuts to the rich, blame it on the unions, and destroy the middle class? Wait we have seen this before haven't we? Standard right wing power grab, and its always about the money going to "corporate friends", that we in the middle class pay for.

I am not against the rich, but in a capitalistic society, it don't work when the money isn't circulated to everyone, the ones who make you rich, and buy what your selling. Hoarding it never works. When people take to the streets, you better pay attention, President, Governor, or CEO.

Yawn... I rarely cite polls because they can be manipulated simply by how they are worded .

Clearly it is a debatable issue. The Attorney General would have to prove obstruction, and hope that the courts are amenable.Hello again, tom:

If there are NO job performance requirements of state senators, then it's NOT debatable at all. It's made up. You just don't like their tactics. Steve neither. Bummer for you.

excon

yawn... I rarely cite polls because they can be manipulated simply by how they are worded .

Thousands of people in the streets in all the major cities is not a poll either, but it paints a picture doesn't it?

So why do REPUBS like to dictate, and NOT TALK?

Talan;
Obligations to unionized public service workers are destroying state budgets around the country .Why isn't the left railing against Andrew Cuomo who has also taken a hard line against the unions ? I think the Dems know the right path to take ;but are too afraid to lose union support.

Hello again, smoothy:

Couple things.... I'm a RULES guy. I LIKE rules. If you KNOW the rules, you KNOW what you can DO. I KNOW the rules WELL. I USE the rules, and I use 'em HARD. I do it with NO shame or embarrassment. In fact, MOST people don't know the rules, and that's why I make mincemeat out of them.. You should be familiar with that.

Politics is a contact sport. Being a rules guy, I actually LOVE it when the rules are used against me. I don't get upset when that happens - I get even. But, one can't MAKE UP the rules, because I'll catch 'em. You should be familiar with that.

Speaking of RULES and DUTY (tom calls it their SWORN duty), rules are published. If you use the google, if these "duties" are there to be found. You COULD find 'em and post a link.... But, they're NOT there, are they??? You're just flapping your gums... In fact, those Democrats violated NO rules and did their duty to their constituents.

excon

Gee... actually showing up for work is optional if you are elected?

Hello again, tom:

If there are NO job performance requirements of state senators, then it's NOT debatable at all. It's made up. You just don't like their tactics. Steve neither. Bummer for you.

excon

Actually showing up is clearly a requirement. Even for politicians.

As I recall, Republicans in congress stuck around and did their jobs during the 'debate' on Obamacare, they didn't cut and run like these fleebaggers did.

Nice intentional misspelling :)

Andrew takes a hard line, but he is talking. And you can't blame unions for the state budgets, because they are more than willing, and have done what it takes to help the state budgets, even after the New Republican governors have created the shortfalls in the budget with tax cuts. For the rich. Where in history has that created jobs in AMERICA?

Obviously few know how pensions, and job security, and workplace rules, and health insurance, work in a union. We pay for those things, and go without raises to afford them. When these things bust a budget (according to the repubs), its because somebody had already screwed up the money, and didn't do what they said they would, OR doesn't want to.

Come on, even you can see where this is all going, corporate privatization of all the jobs, with low paid workers, and big profits. Like in the rest of the world. Like Walmart, and McDonald's, or Nike. Like the health insurance companies, and the banks. When you leave decisions and policies to a banker, it always about his money. He thinks its all his money to make. That's the business model isn't it?

That's why you need a union, because the boss can work the crap out of you, to get rich, and give you nothing. That's the whole war against the middle class, because there is a whole world full of cheap labor to build stuff and send it here.

Follow the money, and learn. You know that goes for middle class repubs too don't you? You are just a willing slave who believes in doing what your told by the master, because one day, you hope to be master, when you can afford slaves right??

Maybe I am prejudiced, being a independent middle class union person, from a middle class union family, who believes a honest days work for an honest days pay, and some dignity, and respect. Lets be clear though, I got no love for the dems either, they can be a sneaky lot too!

They are more than willing, and have done what it takes to help the state budgets

Not in NY and NJ. They've opted for layoffs over give backs. Face it. Long term liabilities due to mandated funding of pensions and other union benefits are breaking state and local budgets around the country . You CANNOT tax your way out of it.

Nice intentional misspelling :)

Thanks, but I can't take credit. I like it though. :)

Thousands of people in the streets in all the major cities is not a poll either, but it paints a picture doesn't it?

Astroturfers.


So why do REPUBS like to dictate, and NOT TALK?

Wait a minute, it was just yesterday y'all were talking about these emails from the governor where he was trying to talk to the fleebaggers. It was just yesterday the news was reporting he caved and was rying to meet some of their demands. And besides, you can't talk to people who flee the state instead of joining the debate.

And besides, you can't talk to people who flee the state instead of joining the debate.

The debate was over when they left. They left to stop the vote. Not the debate.

They left to obstruct. BO should remind the fleebaggers that "elections have consequences" and they lost.

Yes they do, and we will see who pays the consequences.

After watching those thug protesters breaking into the capital, jumping through windows and such, they're not looking too good. Neither are Democrats who refused to do the jobs they were elected to do.

After watching those thug protesters breaking into the capital, jumping through windows and such, they're not looking too good. Neither are Democrats who refused to do the jobs they were elected to do.Hello again, Steve:

Not surprisingly, we disagree. I'm a believer in the constitutional right to assemble. We HAVE that right because demonstrations matter. Seeing the people gather together is powerful and American as apple pie... I LOVE demonstrations. I LOVE being in the face of my government... What?? You don't?? Excuse me?? Dude! Can you spell Tea Party?? Although I disagreed with SOME of the Tea Party's platforms, I LOVED that they did what they did. It's AMERICAN. It's GOOD. It's DEMOCRACY. Most importantly, it WORKS!

Calling these guys thugs is like calling the Tea Party racist. If you want to criticize the other side for calling names, maybe you shouldn't either. You should elevate yourself above the slime instead of wallowing in it. It's NICE up here. From this perch, I can be really righteous.

Next item. I'm still waiting for ANY of you winger dudes to supply me with the WRITTEN job description of a state senator from Wisconsin.. Until you do, all your BS about "refusing to do their jobs", is TOTALLY made up. In fact, they DID their jobs, and they did them WELL. Yes, they lost the battle, but won the war.

I was wondering what happened to the liberals of America. I'm surprised they showed up for THIS battle. Who knew the public service unions had so much support? I would have though they'd show up for the wars... But, nahh. I'da thought they'd show up for gay marriage.. But, nahhh. I'da thought they'd show up tax cuts for the rich, but nahhh... But public service unions?? Dude!

You pushed just a tad too far.. The 20th Century was the home to some epic progressive movements. Civil rights, labor, Social Security & Medicare, and anti war just to name a few. I know you want to, but you can't turn 'em ALL over. It ain't going to happen.

excon

Or is it a last gasp ? Governor Walker and Chris Christie among others have taken bold controversial steps to fix a huge public problem . Now there isn't an American paying attention who doesn't see the problem. We may disagree on the remedies ;but now at least we know what's at stake.

Eventually this will filter up to the national government . Congressman Devin Nunes of California has a bill on the table for public disclosure of all unfunded liabilities due to public employee pension .I hear the numbers totalled is staggering .

“Public employee pensions represent trillions of debt carried by the American taxpayer. Unfortunately, this debt is masked by accounting practices that would never be tolerated in the private sector. It’s time to open up the books. Once we enact this bill, retirees, government workers, policy makers, and most importantly the people who are paying the bills, can make up their own minds about the soundness of public pensions.”
Congressman Devin Nunes - California 21st District :: Press Office (http://nunes.house.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=PressOffice.PressReleases&ContentRecord_id=0b23a5c8-19b9-b4b1-12a2-7b0322e740bd)

or is it a last gasp ? Now there isn't an American paying attention who doesn't see the problem. We may disagree on the remedies ;but now at least we know what's at stake.Hello again, tom:

Couple things.

I agree with you. Americans who pay attention don't disagree about the problem. It's that we don't live within our means. Where we DISAGREE is who's ox is going to get gored to pay for it. That battle ain't over yet.

Yesterday on one of the talk shows, when asked about cuts in defense, Mitch McConnell, said he'd consider those cuts when we're not involved in two wars. That position presumes that every military program is crucial to our winning these wars... That's a non-starter...

As long as you press the middle class and the poor to pay for our recovery, while giving the military and the rich a pass, it AIN'T going to happen.

excon

Neither I, nor the military dispute that cuts in their budget should be on the table. If anything the whole government should study how the military has gone about cutting it's budget and size. I'm speaking especially about Base Realignment and Closure (BRAC).

Governor Walker has a major victory here that is rippling across the country. This week Idaho ended tenure . In Iowa they are debating limits on the bargaining power of the unions .Same thing is happening in Ohio where Gov. Kasich wants to limit their bargaining ability... and we already know that Mitch Daniels has done it by executive order.

Referring to the demonstrators who occupied the State Capitol Building... at least in Cairo ,the demonstrators came back and cleaned up after themselves.

Governor Walker has a major victory here that is rippling across the country.

Referring to the demonstrators who occupied the State Capitol Building ......at least in Cairo ,the demonstrators came back and cleaned up after themselves.Hello again, tom:

Couple things..

So too, the reaction to Walker is rippling across the country... Look. You guys might win - or lose as the case may be. Personally, I don't think reverting back to the 19th Century is a win.

When I demonstrated against the war in Vietnam, they called me dirty too. Didn't change anything... The dirty masses STOPPED the war, and the dirty masses will stop this bit of facism too. Besides, last time I read the Constitution, it didn't say anything about cleaning up after yourselves. That's WHY we hire union janitors and pay them well. They probably don't HAVE janitors in Cairo.

excon

Yeah well maybe they can dip into their union dues to repair the damage.

Ooooh... we're going to get rid of public pensions on a national level?

Does that mean that CONGRESS will get rid of THEIR medical programs and LIFETIME benefits?

I'd LOVE to see that. I'll sacrifice union bargaining to see CONGRESS have to live with the same rules as the rest of us... and the same budget restrictions.

Scott Fitzgerald admitted last night that all this union busting and tax breaking and the whole right wing movement to take away worker rights, is about destroy the democratic base for the 2012 election. Nobody has even addressed the changing of the voter rules in the beltway states, targeting minorities and students. But repubs have been doing it for the last 30 years, and they haven't changed.

Well they say every dog has its day, so today the Walker gang has had their's, but I doubt they have many more left.

Ooooh....we're going to get rid of public pensions on a national level?

Does that mean that CONGRESS will get rid of THEIR medical programs and LIFETIME benefits?

I'd LOVE to see that. I'll sacrifice union bargaining to see CONGRESS have to live with the same rules as the rest of us....and the same budget restrictions.

Yeah, the Poor poor public workers... they will have to fund their own 401Ks like the rest of us do... Lets hold a pitty party for them, what say?

Public workers have job security NOBODY else has... they don't need and shouldn't have a union. Like every other employer... you can go someplace else if the offerings aren't good enough. The democrats Stimulous created millions of jobs that are going unfilled after all.

And yeah... lets Make Congress and the Senate have to live by the same rules the rest of us do too. Next.

QUOTE by smoothy;
Yeah, the Poor poor public workers... they will have to fund their own 401Ks like the rest of us do... Lets hold a pity party for them, what say?
They already fund their own retirements. Walker wants a bigger contribution and they have that. And its not the governments money nor the taxpayers money. It's the workers money deducted from their paycheck.

If the poor trusting workers had know that the government would renege on their contract, they probably would have taken the money. Most big businesses, and the government realize a bigger saving when they offer pension benefits, and health insurance (paid through deductions like the rest of us). Why, because as a group they get a better price than an individual. So would you when you buy health insurance in bulk, you would save money every month too. You chose not to, so don't cry about the choice of others, when you have the same option, and opportunity also.

Smoothy you are a smart guy and I respect you, but don't let your feelings blind you to the facts.


Public workers have job security NOBODY else has... they don't need and shouldn't have a union. Like every other employer... you can go someplace else if the offerings aren't good enough. The democrats Stimulus created millions of jobs that are going unfilled after all.
That's not true at all. They can be hired, fired, and laid off the same as you, especially when the state has a financial emergency, and given where the state has been spending its money, they caused the emergency just like the banks.

As far as jobs go, federal government is limited in creating jobs, we all know that, but the fat cats and bankers that got tax cuts and bail outs ain't doing SQUAT, with tax payer money!!


And yeah... lets Make Congress and the Senate have to live by the same rules the rest of us do too. Next.
Now we agree, NEXT!!

Tal:

Greenie.

Xoxox
Synn

Fed union employees lost their collective bargaining rights in 1978 when Jimmy Carter and a Democrat Congress stripped them.
The silence from the left was deafening .

Title VII of the Civil Service Reform Act of 1978.

1.Federal employees are denied by statute the right to strike.

2.The right of federal employees to picket is limited to informational picketing only. It is an unfair labor practice for a labor organization to picket a federal agency in a labor-management dispute if such picketing interferes with an agency's operations.

3.The scope of mandatory collective bargaining for federal employees is limited to personnel employment practices only. Basic working conditions such as wages, hours of work, and employee benefits are instead subject to statutory provisions.

4.Union and agency contract provisions as well as all other forms of compulsory union support are prohibited in the federal civil service.

5.Recognition of labor organizations as exclusive employee representatives occurs only by a majority vote of employees through a secret-ballot election.

http://www.opm.gov/biographyofanideal/PU_CSreform.htm

We were talking about ALL public employees.

Which means that POLITICIANS should be stripped of pensions and benefits as well.

Betcha they don't like THAT idea as much.

I thought this was about MONEY--I mean, isn't that what Walker and his cronies were screaming about, how BROKE they are?

Yet Walker's OTHER proposals will SPEND a lot more money--especially his "force people to stay in prison for their whole sentence" proposal. Betcha he ain't THAT broke, and that policy gets pushed through too.

The only thing this whole thing has shown me is that politicians ARE businessmen, and they'll do what it takes to line their own pockets---and screw what the people actually want or need.

The South should have won. We probably wouldn't be in as big a mess if we hadn't given the federal government so damned much power then.

They already fund their own retirements. Walker wants a bigger contribution and they have that. And its not the governments money nor the taxpayers money. its the workers money deducted from their paycheck.

If the poor trusting workers had know that the government would renege on their contract, they probably would have taken the money. Most big businesses, and the government realize a bigger saving when they offer pension benefits, and health insurance (paid thru deductions like the rest of us). Why, because as a group they get a better price than an individual. So would you when you buy health insurance in bulk, you would save money every month too. You chose not to, so don't cry about the choice of others, when you have the same option, and opportunity also.

Smoothy you are a smart guy and I respect you, but don't let your feelings blind you to the facts.

Thats not true at all. They can be hired, fired, and laid off the same as you, especially when the state has a financial emergency, and given where the state has been spending its money, they caused the emergency just like the banks.

As far as jobs go, federal government is limited in creating jobs, we all know that, but the fat cats and bankers that got tax cuts and bail outs ain't doing SQUAT, with tax payer money!!!!


Now we agree, NEXT!!!

Union jobs don't work like that... You forget you are talking to someone that's been in a really well known union for approaching 2 decades, I've spoken with and shook hands with Jimmy Hoffa Jr.. There is no union that lets the bean counters hire and fire like in the non-union private sector. And the stronger and all encompassing the Union the worse it is. And I have seen what it takes to fire someone. Its amazingly difficult.

Fat cats and Bankers are earning money with their jobs... unlike public sector employees who make no money... they only spend our tax dollars.

I was in a union too, still am for the last 40 years, and know the rules very well, and know what negotiating is about on both sides. To say any worker doesn't earn his pay is a bit eroneus, and they can get fired if they screw up too bad.

Having a union job, such as steward, griever, or such doesn't pay as much as a full time elect union president for sure, but that's the structure, and a union job has nothing to do with the company the member works at conducts its business, but the due negotiate work rules and proceedures.

Ask any coal miner, or iron worker how important the unions are, and then compare the ones that don't have them, and see which one has the higher death toll because of taking short cuts, or unsafe practices. Ask a fire fighter, or a cop how important his union is, ask a teacher, or a janitor, how important a union is.

If you don't like them, go somewhere else then, where there is no union. But don't knock those of us who WANT to pay our dues, and get the benefits they provide. Okay no more collective bargaining in Wisconsin, we can only wait and see why the people there fought so hard for a union in the first place, and won, and now they will do it again, no doubt! Mark my words, they will be back stronger than ever when they see how they were lied to about this so called emergency, that was all about a power grab for 2012.


Fat cats and Bankers are earning money with their jobs... unlike public sector employees who make no money... they only spend our tax dollars.
They earn money for themselves and if you didn't need those public sector workers why are you paying them? And last I looked, they pay taxes and provide a public service. They don't spend tax dollars, elected officials do!

Thought you knew that. Show me a worker who spends your dollars, and I will show you that your vote gave him the job. Fire'em then, and where will you send your kids to learn their ABC's? Or shovel your snow, or pick up your garbage??

Come on now!!

Fed union employees lost their collective bargaining rights in 1978 when Jimmy Carter and a Democrat Congress stripped them.
The silence from the left was deafening .


Has nothing to do with the states.

I was in a union too, still am for the last 40 years, and know the rules very well, and know what negotiating is about on both sides. To say any worker doesn't earn his pay is a bit eroneus, and they can get fired if they screw up too bad.

Having a union job, such as steward, griever, or such doesn't pay as much as a full time elect union president for sure, but thats the structure, and a union job has nothing to do with the company the member works at conducts its business, but the due negotiate work rules and proceedures.

Ask any coal miner, or iron worker how important the unions are, and then compare the ones that don't have them, and see which one has the higher death toll because of taking short cuts, or unsafe practices. Ask a fire fighter, or a cop how important his union is, ask a teacher, or a janitor, how important a union is.

If you don't like them, go somewhere else then, where there is no union. But don't knock those of us who WANT to pay our dues, and get the benefits they provide. Okay no more collective bargaining in Wisconsin, we can only wait and see why the people there fought so hard for a union in the first place, and won, and now they will do it again, no doubt! Mark my words, they will be back stronger than ever when they see how they were lied to about this so called emergency, that was all about a power grab for 2012.


They earn money for themselves and if you didn't need those public sector workers why are you paying them?? And last I looked, they pay taxes and provide a public service. They don't spend tax dollars, elected officials do!

Thought you knew that. Show me a worker who spends your dollars, and I will show you that your vote gave him the job. Fire'em then, and where will you send your kids to learn their ABC's? Or shovel your snow, or pick up your garbage???

Come on now!!!

Bankers earn money... that why you get interest on the money you have there. How much do you get paid every year from the Public servants?

You need SOME public sector jobs... you don't NEED as many. And they certainly don't NEED union representation. THey will work like the private sector... if the job isn't good enough on its merits to attract people, then you do away with the job or sweeten the pot a little. You don't lavish excessive benefits on them, and then make them next to impossible to fire... you know, like teachers... when there are people willing to take the job for less. Ever wonder why California, New York, Illinois and Ohio as will as Wisconsin and Michigan are in the trouble they are in now? Making promisses and lavishing excessive benefits they knew they couldn't pay for is reason Number 1.

I don't expect to get paid by a public servant, picking up my garbage is enough.

As for the states you mention, that's how republicans are, create an emergency, to justify and take all the money jobs and rights you can. I understand, and for the next two years so be it. But they weren't the only states with budget decisions to make. The other states notably Minnesota, raised corporate taxes and cut their budgets, because it was a shared sacrifice by all, not an opportunity to rape pillage and plunder the constituents, or the good of the few to make BHO a one term president.

Yep that's the entire goal, in every state you named where the repubs were elected by the KOCH Bros, and Karl Rove, and its about power and money. They don't give a rats patoot about me, you, or anyone else except their money, and their power.

You ordinary everyday middle class repubs better wake up, because your as much affected as the rest of us. Greed and ambition don't care what party you are. Just ask your local chamber of commerce what its all about. One master, many slaves.

Thought you knew that too.

Battlefield315: Teachers Unions explained (http://www.battlefield315.com/2011/02/teachers-unions-explained.html)

I don't expect to get paid by a public servant, picking up my garbage is enough.

As for the states you mention, thats how republicans are, create an emergency, to justify and take all the money jobs and rights you can. I understand, and for the next two years so be it. But they weren't the only states with budget decisions to make. the other states notably Minnesota, raised corporate taxes and cut their budgets, because it was a shared sacrifice by all, not an opportunity to rape pillage and plunder the constituents, or the good of the few to make BHO a one term president.

Yep thats the entire goal, in every state you named where the repubs were elected by the KOCH Bros, and Karl Rove, and its about power and money. They don't give a rats patoot about me, you, or anyone else except their money, and their power.

You ordinary everyday middle class repubs better wake up, because your as much affected as the rest of us. Greed and ambition don't care what party you are. just ask your local chamber of commerce what its all about. One master, many slaves.

Thought you knew that too.Republicans haven't been a majority in many of those states in DECADES. THe emergency was created by democrats giving the Unions everything they wanted in exchange for money the unions extorted out of its members... many of whom are NOT Democrats.

And I know far more republican union members than democrat union members... so its no surprise how ticked off they are about their hard earned money going exclusively to democrats for a quid pro quo.

Look at ACORN... look at NPR. Anything connected with democrats is corrupt to its core.

That's the problem my friend, so are the republicans.

The Dems left because they were out numbered.

I completely agree. Without UNIONS there would be no middle class. Wake up people!

What do you do for a living?

What's your point in asking this irrelevant question ?

Deleted duplicate post

I'll bite Tom what is your point?

This story has not gone away. As Ex predicted ,it's a war ,and the Senate passing the laws was just a battle in the war.

The war has shifted to the recall effort.

The recall process in Wi. Is pretty simple... get enough petitition signatures and force a new election .There are 16 such petition drives ongoing . 8 for each side. The Republicans are targeting (yeah I said it )8 Dems for their 'fleebagging' . The Dems have 8 Republicans in their sights (yeah I said it) for their vote.

Except it looks like the national Republicans have gone ADD while the Democrats still see Wisconsin as the front line.

The Democratic Governors Association, and MoveOn.org have begun a multimillion-dollar TV campaign to support the recall effort. The national Republicans only have the Republican State Leadership Committee (RSLC) paying attention.

What's at stake ? Recall elections can beging in the Spring. If the Dems manage to get a majority in the Senate ,it could have a big impact on redistricting ,slated to begin in the summer.

But even more it will ripple across the country where there are many states facing the terrible fiscal options that runaway state workers contracts have caused.

Sounds good Tom, but far from truth. We were all humming along enjoying the fruits of our labor, happy as larks until Wall Street banks screwed up the money, all over the freaking world, and now we struggle to regroup. Putting the blame on a sector of the population is just missing the facts, and the whole point.

We got robbed, and to say the middle class did it is crazy, to say unions are to blame is crazy. I mean just look at who got bailed out, and who didn't.

Just look at who has to balance the books, and who doesn't. That's right, poor people, and struggling public sector workers have been made the sacrificial cow, and the ones who are the "job creators" and movers and shakers are rewarded even more.

Not only when this robbery was perpetrated, but even now, as tax breaks on the fed level, and tax breaks on the state level have made shared sacrifice a joke, right in front of our faces.

This ain't about public workers, never was, its always been about corporate power, and control, starting with the economy, after jobs are shipped overseas, and the money allowed to buy lawmakers, so they can have new laws that restrict the flow of money through the system, and the grab of total control over the population. That's what this is about, and that's what the republicans are about.

But you middle class and working stiff republicans will be on the wrong end of the money as we Dem's and independents will be so see you in the bread line, and we can exchange stories about how well that worked out for us.

Elections coming up, scheduled, and non scheduled, so we might get some cake out of this.

The funny thing to me is if republicans and democrats spent as much time getting the bad guys who stole the money that started this in the first place, we wouldn't have to fight each other for the crumbs.

This public sector unfunded mandates problem was brewing well before 2008 .

Yes it was, and who was creating the economic bubbles that burst on us all? Wisconsin is but a focal point for the media, its global, as the middle east and Europe are in the same boat.

This is what you soak the rich rhetoric brings
Reports: Caterpillar Hints At Leaving Illinois Over High Taxes (http://www.rttnews.com/Content/BreakingNews.aspx?Node=B1&Id=1584201)

The fact that prosperity masked a system that was inevidably going to collapse doesn't change the fact that state workers picking private workers pockets is not a sound model for success.

This story has not gone away. As Ex predicted ,it's a war ,and the Sentate passing the laws was just a battle in the war. Hello again, tom:

Not only has it not gone away, what happened in Wisconsin is the spark that has re-ignited a long dead debate about what government actually is supposed to do... Steve articulated the difference's perfectly,
Since when was it someone else's job in a free country to distribute wealth? If the left would stop their social engineering games and get out of they way, this country would thrive again.Of course, since the beginning, the government's JOB was to redistribute the wealth. In fact, that's its ONLY job. It collects taxes from some to pay for services for others. Some of those services may be an Army to protect everybody, a road for everybody to drive on, a police force to protect peoples lives, and, of course, the ability to make RULES, like everybody should drive on the right side of the road, and workers shouldn't be forced to labor in a locked room, in a building that's a fire trap.

Both you and steve say that SOME of that "redistribution" of wealth is just fine, although you'll NEVER call it "redistribution". In fact, I have no idea what you call it... But, the fact that you call it something OTHER than what it is, IS the problem.

You've been getting away with it since Ronny Raygun. I guess that caused you start believing your own schtick... That's why you're SOOO surprised at the response you've gotten in Wisconsin. What you've done is awakened a sleeping giant, and it's going to come back to bite you. This op-ed in the NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/22/opinion/22cronon.html?src=twrhp)says everything that needs to be said.

excon

Let's see who gets the best of the recalls. Down in liberal bastion Miami Fla ,Mayor Carlos Alvarez was ousted with a recall, by voters angry over a property tax rate increase and salary raises for county employees .

Some of those services may be an Army to protect everybody, a road for everybody to drive on, a police force to prevent crime, and the ability to make RULES like everybody should drive on the right side of the road, and workers shouldn't be forced to labor in a locked in a room in a building that's a fire trap.

Both you and steve say that SOME of that "redistribution" of wealth is just fine, although you'll NEVER call it "redistribution".
That's right I will never call those legitimate actions of government redistribution because it isn't. You said it yourself.. those are shared services .

Tell me where elected officials ,collecting union dues for the unions, and then creating law that allows unions to pick the pockets of non-union members, forcing them to pay for benefits that the non-union workers do not enjoy in the work place fall under legitimate roles of government ?

That's right I will never call those legitimate actions of government redistribution because it aint.

Tell me where elected officials ,collecting union dues for the unions, and then creating law that allows unions to pick the pockets of non-union members, forcing them to pay for benefits that the non-union workers do not enjoy in the work place fall under legitimate roles of government ?Hello again, tom:

I'll be happy to, after you tell me WHY the most profitable industry in the history of the world, the oil industry, should be the recipient of $$$ BILLIONS of MY REDISTRIBUTED wealth.

As long as you call THAT a legitimate action of government, but protecting workers isn't, you're going to fail. Here's what you miss. There's a consensus in the country that spending needs to be curtailed... Most everybody is willing to SHARE in the sacrifice necessary to get the country back on track... ;)

Of course, that's NO SO is it? You don't want EVERYBODY to sacrifice, you want the POOR and the middle class to do it... That, my friend, ain't going to happen.

excon

This op-ed in the NY Times says everything that needs to be said.

Yeah Wisconsin was the first to introduce public employee bargaining, 52 years ago, and it is the first to admit that it cannot be sustained.

The author is funny. He says that Republicans are trying to "reverse civic traditions that for more than a century have been among the most celebrated achievements" . Then says that the state instituted them in 1959 . You do the math .

Besides ;history has shown that Joe McCarthy was right.

I'll be happy to, after you tell me WHY the most profitable industry in the history of the world, the oil industry, should be the recipient of $$$ BILLIONS of MY REDISTRIBUTED wealth.

As long as you call THAT a legitimate action of government,.

I don't . So the misnomer 'crony' "capitalism" is just another name for state socialism.

I don't . So the misnomer 'crony' "capitalism" is just another name for state socialism.Hello again, tom:

Cool. When I hear you clamoring for THAT subsidy to be repealed, I'll listen to your gripes about the unions.

excon

You haven't seem me write it ?

Well let me refresh your memory:

that is why I favor the use of bankruptsy instead of bailouts . That is why I favor the limitted use of regulations which has an unintended consequence of industry consolidation . That is why I oppose this use of corporate /government cooperatives that are being set up by the current group of leaders which more resembles merchantilism than capitalism.

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/10-great-moments-corporate-malfeasance-534598.html

On the same posting #29

...Corporations likewise should not be granted through the legal structure special favors. The individual farmer should play on the same level field as ADM .

I'm sure with more time I could find other such examples .

OK one more because you posted the OP about 'Progressive ' Insurance


Couldn't figure out what this was about. What a surprise that business people who prosper in a crony business /government environment wouid be 'progressive' (aka national/state socialists)!!

Jeff Immelt at GE is one also...

I am against anyone who stops the free circulation of every dollar, hoarders are not welcome. Ego tripping should be against the law.

The few should never tell the many what's good for 'em. That's modern day slavery!!

you haven't seem me write it ?Hello again, tom:

I've seen you write it. I haven't seen you clamor for it. This thread is clamoring.

excon

OK then just to make it clear. I think all subsidies,incentives, tax credits, preferences , loan guarantees distort the market . That includes givebacks to all fossil fuel ,nuclear ,biodiesal ,ethanol ,and so called other green energy sources domestic and foreign .I'd like a neutral playing field for all forms of energy .Then let the market decide .

Now that is cleared up ,the issue that states through the collective bargaining process have over committed to their public service employees and will continue to do so as long as the unions think they can pick to pockets of the taxpayers.
Even if you are for redistribution ,that can't be what you have in mind.

Update .
Yesterday there was a crucial State Supreme Court election in Wisconsin. Turnout was off the charts(33.5% of voting-age adults... 1.5 million voters ) . The unions poured a small fortune into this election ,and did their best to smear the Republican candidate ,incumbent Justice David Prosser .

With 99% of the vote counted ,Prosser leads challenger JoAnne Kloppenburg by about 600 votes( 0.04% of ballots ).
This is sure to be a recount situation .

A Prosser win means Governor Walker's needed collective bargaining reforms survive a court challenge as conservative justices will retain a 4-3 majority on the high court.

The unions poured a small fortune into this election Hello again, tom:

You forgot the money that Karl Rove and the Koch brothers poured in too. I thought the challenger would whip the incumbent's butt, but nooooo. It's too close to call..

excon

Don't know the spending breakdown .But to be fair... Both sides spent plenty ($3.7 million for an otherwise minor judicial race) .
The turn out rivaled Presidential primaries .

I bet the Dems bring the Franken recount team in to the state.

I bet the Dems bring the Franken recount team in to the state.Hello again, tom:

What? You ain't got your own Bush v Gore team?

excon

The Bush v Gore team was the independent newspaper group that did a recount of Fla. 2000 and found that Bush won by more than the official final count.
http://articles.cnn.com/2001-04-04/politics/florida.recount.01_1_ballots-without-presidential-votes-undercounted-ballots-miami-herald-and-usa?_s=PM:ALLPOLITICS

Prosser's lead has grown to 835 (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=news&cd=2&ved=0CC0QqQIwAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.slate.com%2Fblogs%2Fblogs%2Fw eigel%2Farchive%2F2011%2F04%2F06%2Fwho-s-going-to-win-in-wisconsin.aspx&rct=j&q=prosser&ei=dXScTd6aOo6_gQfFt5CGBw&usg=AFQjCNFCR2oxuy_ck5xD1Q99e1oupqIAFA&cad=rja). Still headed for a recount but that's a better cushion.

The Bush v Gore team was the independent newspaper group that did a recount of Fla. 2000 and found that Bush won by more than the official final count.Hello again, tom:

I'm not going to look, but I'll bet I can find an article saying that, after the votes were counted, Franken won. But, that was then, and this is now. As you say, it's up to the lawyers.

excon

Yeah Franken won when counters in Democratic counties kept 'finding ' new previously uncounted votes for Franken .The percentage of discovered ballots that favored Franken defied statistical probability.sorta the magic ballot theory .

But you are right about this... Franken's lawyers wanted it more than Coleman's. The real tragedy of the 2000 Presidential election was any court's involvement in a political process. We are to be plagued with many more contests decided in the courts instead of the ballot box.

Interesting thought . Which court decides a judicial election ?

Latest reports is that Kloppenburg now has a narrow lead with a few more districts to count.

Besides private money funding this campaign through issue ads , the taxpayers of Wisconsin ,through a law passed in 2009 by the Dem legislature ,had to post up $400,000 to each campaign . This law was designed to publicly finance judicial races if they agreed to largely forego private fundraising.
See how that worked out ? Oh they didn't take any money for their campaigns all right. But that didn't prevent millions of $$$ in campaigning from outside (that pesky 1st Amendment ).

This is likely to go to a recount. These rules are waived for a recount ,and both candidates can fund raise to their hearts content. There are no limits either in the amt they raise ,and there are no restrictions on individual contributions.