Hello:

This remarkable occurrence deserves a new thread... I'm watching the Egyptian people on TV. I'm so happy for them.

Somebody smarter than me said it first, and I'm not going to say it right... They've earned their freedom. Let's see if they can keep it.

excon

Hello again:

Well, it looks like they'll have a little bread to fund their new government... Switzerland just froze Mubarak's accounts. They say he's got upwards of $50 BILLION stashed...

excon

Switzerland just froze Mubarak's accounts. They did not keep their secrets - the US will surely ask for their death penalty for treason!

Hello:

This remarkable occurrence deserves a new thread... I'm watching the Egyptian people on TV. I'm so happy for them.

Somebody smarter than me said it first, and I'm not gonna say it right.... They've earned their freedom. Let's see if they can keep it.

excon

Here's hoping... but so far this looks like 1952 redux.

Here's hopin ....but so far this looks like 1952 redux.Hello again, tom:

Your history is better than mine, but I assume that's when Nasser grabbed power... I also don't know what role we played in that affair, but I'll bet our hand was in it.

The question I have for you now, is what hand do we play THIS time? Smoothy already said that he'd support a democracy if the outcome met his approval. How much are we going to try to shape affairs? Should we? Should we keep on supporting the military? Does THAT support give us influence? If we influence their affairs, will the people like that? Will we be setting the WRONG course for our relationship over the next century.

I think how we act NOW, is going to make a BIG difference in the world.

excon

How much are we going to try to shape affairs? Should we?


President Barack Obama said he personally told Egypt's Hosni Mubarak Friday night to take "concrete steps" to expand rights inside the Arab nation and refrain from violence against protesters

Read more: Obama tells Mubarak: Must take 'concrete steps' - The Buzz - TheState.com (http://www.thestate.com/2011/01/28/1668267/us-says-egypt-situation-of-deep.html#ixzz1DgFNrZAuhttp://www.thestate.com/2011/01/28/1668267/us-says-egypt-situation-of-deep.html)

Since then the President has ramped up his public rhetoric hardening Mubarak's position. As late as last night Mubarak was saying he would not bow to foreign pressure ,and said he wanted to exit with dignity . I think the President's rhetoric yesterday afternoon was the key reason why Mubarak made the sudden reversal from what was being reported all day.

I remember in 2005 Condi Rice was urging the Egyptian government to reform towards democracy and everyone including the President mocked the freedom agenda.
Me ;I'm in favor of it ;as I was last year when the democratic movement in Iran was crushed without any support from the free world . I'm in favor of it now ;as I was when the people of Lebanon threw off the yoke of Syrian and Hezbollah oppression. Now our President thinks he can work with the jackboots that crushed the Cedar Revolution.
I'm in favor of it ,when the Hondurans rose up and told their would-be Chavesta dictator that NO... he could not change the Constitution to give himself the Presidency for life. You said there was a coup when the democratic legislature defending the Constitution ousted the President ,saving their Constitution.

What do I think now.. We should support this coup that is apparently supported by the protesters in the street ;and hope they move towards a Constitutional Republic that respects all people's rights. I'll know that happens when the Copts can freely worship without fear .

Since then the President has ramped up his public rhetoric hardening Mubarak's position. No, he's asking him to "refrain from violence against protesters".

"Surely, there will be difficult days to come, but the United States will continue to stand up for the rights of the Egyptian people and work with their government in pursuit of a future that is more just, more free and more hopeful," Obama told reportersDid we read the same article?

Well they bought it... lock stock and barrel... for better or worse.

Lets just hope the Muslim brotherhood doesn't take over now... but then... thats what Obama has been secretly wishing for...

Lets just hope the Muslim brotherhood doesn't take over now.....but then...thats what Obama has been secretly wishing for....Because you think he's a secret muslim? LOL!

Because you think he's a secret muslim? LOL!

Obama refuses to call them a terrorist Organization... and was actually wanting to talk to them about taking over.

That was in the news... easy to Google that up.

What he actually is is anyone's guess... but he's certainly not a christian. At worst a muslim... more likely a skeptical agnostic.

No lose with him gone but now military in power, I wonder if they will give it back up, or just appoint a new leader theirself

Here is a Pew poll that IBD made a commentary on recently .

Among highlights from the Pew poll:

• 49% of Egyptians say Islam plays only a "small role" in public affairs under President Hosni Mubarak, while 95% prefer the religion play a "large role in politics."

• 84% favor the death penalty for people who leave the Muslim faith.

• 82% support stoning adulterers.

• 77% think thieves should have their hands cut off.

• 54% support a law segregating women from men in the workplace.

• 54% believe suicide bombings that kill civilians can be justified.

• Nearly half support the terrorist group Hamas.

• 30% have a favorable opinion of Hezbollah.

• 20% maintain positive views of al-Qaida and Osama bin Laden.

• 82% of Egyptians dislike the U.S. — the highest unfavorable rating among the 18 Muslim nations Pew surveyed.

Editorial: What Egyptians Really Want - Investors.com (http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article/562840/201102101920/What-Egyptians-Really-Do-Want.htm)
We aren't talking Jeffersonianism here. I am all in favor of a nation that has self determinism . But if they chose to be enemies of liberty and freedom as defined by the thinkers of the enlightenment , then they will ultimately be our enemies.

82% of Egyptians dislike the U.S. — the highest unfavorable rating among the 18 Muslim nations Pew surveyed.Hello again, tom:

Yet, I didn't see ONE American flag being burned. If they hate us so much, you'da thunk they would have...

Course, supporting their brutal dictator for the last 30 years certainly hasn't endeared them to us. Earning the wrath of the people is one of the downsides of a policy like that. You know. Kind of like Iran.

This is either going to be real good for us or real bad. Me? I'm hoping the glass is half full. You? Not so much.

excon

The left here was praising the overthrow of the shaw in Iran... and it wasn't long after before they took hostages in the American Embassy there... while Jimmy Carter sat around with his thumb up his butt.

Here is a Pew poll that IBD made a commentary on recently .

Among highlights from the Pew poll:

• 49% of Egyptians say Islam plays only a "small role" in public affairs under President Hosni Mubarak, while 95% prefer the religion play a "large role in politics."

• 84% favor the death penalty for people who leave the Muslim faith.

• 82% support stoning adulterers.

• 77% think thieves should have their hands cut off.

• 54% support a law segregating women from men in the workplace.

• 54% believe suicide bombings that kill civilians can be justified.

• Nearly half support the terrorist group Hamas.

• 30% have a favorable opinion of Hezbollah.

• 20% maintain positive views of al-Qaida and Osama bin Laden.

• 82% of Egyptians dislike the U.S. — the highest unfavorable rating among the 18 Muslim nations Pew surveyed.

Editorial: What Egyptians Really Want - Investors.com (http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article/562840/201102101920/What-Egyptians-Really-Do-Want.htm)
We aren't talking Jeffersonianism here. I am all in favor of a nation that has self determinism . But if they chose to be enemies of liberty and freedom as defined by the thinkers of the enlightenment , then they will ultimately be our enemies.

So just your standard middle eastern democracy then?

When I see a democracy emerge I'll believe it. So far all I see is a popular revolt followed by a military coup. All I know for sure is that Field Marshal Mohammed Hussein Tantawi is acting Pharaoh .

What I don't know is to what extent the Brotherhood has infiltrated the military infrastructure.

Course, supporting their brutal dictator for the last 30 years certainly hasn't endeared them to us. Earning the wrath of the people is one of the downsides of a policy like that. You know. Kind of like Iran.


Both the Shah and Mubarak were strong man dictators . They were no where's near as 'brutal' as what replaced the Shah. They were no where's near as brutal as Saddam Hussein ,Kim Jong il ;the cadres in China ,and I can go on and on.

What I do know is that for 30 years Mubarak's military never crossed borders aggressively . What I do know is that he maintained and honored the negotiated peace treaty with Israel .

What I do know is that while he was in charge Egypt was an enemy of jihadistan ;and Egypt was an ally in the Cold War. Were we wrong for making an alliance with the Soviet Union to defeat a common enemy is WWII ?

I'm not sure the new Egypt will be an ally in peace . They could emerge as an enemy if the Brotherhood gains control.
Let's watch what develops before we assume that what emerges will be better for the people of Egypt or the world .

Let's watch what develops before we assume that what emerges will be better for the people of Egypt or the world .

Well tom it seems one american might have learned the lessons of history.

My bet is when the shouting dies down the Egyptians will be no better off. Bloodless coups rarely change anything long term

Clete , Make no mistake. I am all in favor of the people overthrowing tyranny. In the case of the US it worked out . But too often the French Revoltution becomes the template.

The popular talking point this morning is that Egypt could imitate the Turkish model under Tayyip Erdogan . I say that the jury is still out on that example .But so far he has appeared to incorporate an Islamic State with a democratic state .

In my view they could best start by changing the economy from a statist one where 35% of the workforce is employed by the state ,to the Turkish model where slightly more than 10% are government paid employees.

I agree with Obama when he said yesterday that the entrepreneurial spirit of the folks at Liberation Square needs to be set free.

Clete , Make no mistake. I am all in favor of the people overthrowing tyranny. In the case of the US it worked out . But too often the French Revoltution becomes the template.

The popular talking point this morning is that Egypt could imitate the Turkish model under Tayyip Erdogan . I say that the jury is still out on that example .But so far he has appeared to incorporate an Islamic State with a democratic state .

In my view they could best start by changing the economy from a statist one where 35% of the workforce is employed by the state ,to the Turkish model where slightly more than 10% are government paid employees.

I agree with Obama when he said yesterday that the entrepreneurial spirit of the folks at Liberation Square needs to be set free.

Hi Tom we all hope for the Egyptian people that they can pull off a transition to an open democracy but it is a huge step from Egypt to Turkey and don't forget Turkey is drifting back towards Islamic restrictions. The yoke of Islamic extremism is hard to throw off.

You speak of privatisation, again a worthy aspiration but requiring much time to achieve There is nothing wrong with state owned enterprise they can flourish in an open democracy which my own nation has clearly demonstrated. Egypt will need to achieve a measure of demilitarisation. Don't forget it is still in the grip of the military which has provided its leaders for generations I would say if they achieved the Pakistani model they would be doing well.


Don't get caught up in Obama's aspirationalism, this is the only one where he has been part of the solution in some time. He despirately needed a win

Don't get caught up in Obama's aspirationalism, this is the only one where he has been part of the solution in some time. He despirately needed a win

Its isn't a win yet... they haven't really changed anything yet... the the threat of becoming another Iran is still a very strong possibility at this point. Of course if it Does become another Itran... Obama will just blame it on George Bush too.

Its isn't a win yet.....they haven't really changed anything yet....the the threat of becoming another Iran is still a very strong possibility at this point. Of course if it Does become another Itran....Obama will just blame it on George Bush too.

Hi Smoothy that's why I'm saying don't be caught up in his aspirationalism. I say it is a win only in that Mubarak has left office and Obama can associate himself with that outcome, but beyond that, we now have a military dictatorship in place which may be no different to Mubarak. So far the guns are silent

Now that the freedom agenda is cool again ;will the President support the aspirations of the people of the Green Revolution in Iran ?

Obama has his panties in a knot...

Obama 'Furious' With Hillary State Department Over Egypt

Is a civil war brewing between the Obama White House and Hillary Clinton's State Department?

A New York Times story published this weekend suggests one may have erupted already.

On Saturday, the Times, quoting numerous White House sources, sought to explain the Obama administration's erratic policy statements during the Egyptian crisis.

The paper reported that Obama was "seething" over State Department officials's statement suggesting that the administration did not want a quick transition of power in Egypt, with President Hosni Mubarak stepping down from his office immediately.

Obama felt that the State Department "made it look as if the administration were protecting a dictator and ignoring the pleas of the youths of Cairo."

As Secretary Clinton and her special envoy Frank Wisner repeatedly called for an orderly transition that would include President Mubarak remaining in office for at least a period, Obama and his team studiously sought to undermine the State Department stance.

The Times states that Mr. Obama "was furious" about Clinton's and Wisner's statements, "as Mr. Obama was demanding that change in Egypt begin right away."

Secretary Clinton was not the only figure who opposed Obama's view. Clinton was joined by Vice President Joe Biden and Defense Secretary Robert Gates, who also were advocating that Obama adhere to a cautious and more traditional foreign policy approach toward the situation in Egypt.

Unhappy about the mixed signals high-ranking officials were giving, Obama intervened directly, telling White House advisers that "this was not the message we should be delivering.”

According to the Times, the Obama White House even recruited Democratic Sen. John Kerry to appear on "Meet the Press" last Sunday to contradict Wisner's statements that reflected Secretary Clinton's views. Wisner's comments “just don't reflect where the administration has been from day one,” Kerry said on the program.

Linked NYT story... Oh my, the honeymoon is over, this proves it after 3 years of their near pornographic adolation of the Messiah...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/13/world/middleeast/13diplomacy.html?_r=1

If I ignored everyone's statements in the 3 weeks leading up to Friday except the President's ,I would come away with the impression that the President did not have a clear policy that he was communicating .


"The real tragedy of the president's epic mishandling of Egypt is not merely the sceptical-at-best Egypt that will emerge. It's that Egypt is merely the latest episode in a pattern laid down by Barack Obama in the first two years of his presidency. In just two years, he has faced multiple crises of liberty, democracy and the American national interest abroad – and he has failed each test. Even rhetorical support for those seeking freedom, the bare minimum a president can do, is strikingly absent except under duress.
How hard would it be to back Egyptian democracy, Mr President? | Joshua Treviño | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/feb/09/barack-obama-white-house-egypt?INTCMP=SRCH)

If I ignored everyone's statements in the 3 weeks leading up to Friday except the President's ,I would come away with the impression that the President did not have a clear policy that he was communicating .

How hard would it be to back Egyptian democracy, Mr President? Hello again, tom:

If I ignored the events of the last 3 weeks, I'd say your link was Monday morning quarterbacking... I'm not impressed.

excon

I heard that Google worker Wael Ghonim who set up the Facebook page entitled 'We are all Khaled Said'(Khalid Said being the guy beaten to death by the Egyptian police) that sparked the demonstrations against Mubark . He was on 60 Minutes .When asked about Obama's contribution he basically said thanks for nothing.

I saw the same things you did. The President responded to his 3AM call 3 weeks later.

When asked about Obama's contribution he basically said thanks for nothing.What did the UK contribute? What did France contribute? What did Japan contribute? What did Canada contribute?

What did the UK contribute? What did France contribute? What did Japan contribute? What did Canada contribute?

They were wise and contributed nothing

Now that the freedom agenda is cool again ;will the President support the aspirations of the people of the Green Revolution in Iran ?

He may have his chance to try again (http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=208166&R=R3).

I expect the US press will suddenly lose interest in the Green Revolution. Maybe they need a cool chant like 'Tahrir today Tehran tomorrow' .
The world shouted "We are all Khalid "this month after he was murdered by the Egyptian police .

Neda Agha-Soltan was gunned down in Tehran on by the thugs of the Iran regime ;and although the video went viral. The world collectively yawned.

And just like in 2009 ,when the people of Iran take to the streets enmass their signs will be in Farsi and English... clearly intended to send us a message and implied plea for support.

And just like in 2009 ,when the people of Iran take to the streets enmass their signs will be in Farsi and English ...clearly intended to send us a message and implied plea for support.Hello again, tom:

Of course, we all hope for the freedom of the Iranian people. But, our support can no longer be two sided. We either support the revolution that's underway, or we don't. That means we need to support the people over the dictators whom we are NOW supporting throughout the Arab world.

Are you good with that?

excon

It's easier to help a peaceful transition if we have a relationship with the dictator .That's just a reality .
As I have pointed out ,that was a key part of the end of the Marcos regime in the Philippines.
We have a greater impact when we pressure them to reform.

You think this just happened overnight in Egypt but I see it differently . I think we planted some seeds of this revolt in the last decade .
2005 Condi Rice visited Egypt and also met with the opposition groups. In addresses at the American University in Cairo and in a joint press conference with Foreign Minister Ahmed Abul-Gheit, Rice publicly laid out the case for freedom ."Liberty is the universal longing of every soul, and democracy is the ideal path for every nation,"...."We are all concerned for the future of Egypt's reforms "Rice told Mubarak that Egypt should "put it's faith in the people" and to allow for "free and fair" elections.She also spoke of the right of the opposition to act without waiting for "the midnight knocks of the secret police".

She said “For 60 years, the United States pursued stability at the expense of democracy in the Middle East — and we achieved neither. Now we are taking a different course. We are supporting the democratic aspirations of all people.” Those powerful statements were scoffed at by the opponents of the 'freedom agenda ' of the previous administration .


She did this a number of times in a number of nations during her stay at State. In 2008 she publicly called for Mugabe to quit .

This was consistent with the 2nd term agenda of President Bush. In his second inaugural address, the President said it is in the strategic interest of the United States to promote democracy in the Middle East: “The survival of liberty in our land increasingly depends on the success of liberty in other lands.”
It's satisfying that neocon is in vogue again.

I do have concerns however that the only alternative in Egypt that is sufficiently organized is the Brotherhood. We should continue to pressure the military to allow the reforms to continue... (demonstably easier to do with friends than enemies )while at the same time help organize "liberal " opposition parties. If the Brotherhood wins the elections it's 'one and done'. President Bush also led in this effort allowing the State Dept to fund the Middle East Partnership Initiative, or MEPI. They monitored the last Egyptian election ,and turned advocate for reform ,giving support and financing to some Egyptian opposition leaders .Elizabeth Cheney led that effort .
http://mepi.state.gov/

“administration increased funding for good governance and democracy in Egypt, from $3.5 million in 2005 to $55 million in 2008.” When it became clear that too much of that money found its way into the wrong hands, Liz Cheney's project within the State Department, the Middle East Partnership Initiative, began conscientiously funneling aid to independent democracy groups in Egypt. It is well known that the administration regrettably backtracked on the Freedom Agenda in its last years. And as the article notes: “When Obama took office, his administration halved the amount of money available for democracy funding in Egypt, to $20 million in 2008, and allowed Egypt to have a veto again over some funds.”

Nevertheless, the program put in place by Bush was able to dispatch 13,000 election monitors to Egypt for last December's parliamentary elections. Their ability to record and publicize the electoral fraud they witnessed was a crucial factor in the unrest that followed. “In a way or another, it helped what is happening right now,'' said Mahmoud Ali Mohamed, head of the Egyptian Association for Supporting Democracy. Saad Ibrahim, founder of the Ibn Khaldun Center for Development Studies, said, “The very fact that they saw the fraud firsthand has contributed to them turning from monitors into activists.”
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2011/02/13/egypt-revolt-a-testament-to-american-power/


The Iranian opposition is organized. But the regime does not bend to the pressure of internal opposition . It will only fall if pressure similar to what happened to South Africa is applied at the same time the Green Revolution is in motion.