Hello ben:

I want a booth review. Ain't nobody yelling at each other over there. It's an important discussion. Please unlock it.

excon

Ok I'll give you a chance to redeem yourselves and stay some where near the actual topic.

Hello again, ben:

I shall post appropriately... If I can...

excon

The topic was an open thred discussion. Someone else narrowed it to a discussion about mental patients.

I don't see anything in the posting that needs "redeeming " .

Let's not get into arguing about arguing.

So once again a deranged gunman has run amock, but access to guns in the community should not be restricted. The problem is freedom, we just can't lock someone up because they have unpopular views, but it is possible to restrict access to weapons. Sometimes freedom has to be bruised a little to protect the innocent even if business gets bruised a little in the process. True freedom is being able to walk the streets in the assurance that the fellow next to you isn't about to blow you away

Gun access is "restricted ". There are permitting requirements that Jared Loughner met . He purchased the gun legally.

What you mean is that you want a gun ban .

Would that have stopped him if he was hell bent on murder ? No and especially no if you factor in that he considered the attack a suicide/ homicide. He fully expected to be killed by the police.
So then guns are not available... are cars ? Are bomb making chemicals ? What else should be banned ? Theo van Gough bought it with a knife.

Well Tom if he met the requirements perhaps the requirements should be examined much more closely, the weapon he purchased was professional weapon. Who needs a hand gun with an extended clip of 30 rounds. You say effectively this man was an urban terrorist and could not be stopped

I am aware that you can use any weapon to carry out a murder, but a hand gun allows you to be much more targeted and expedient. You have just used the classic excuse, guns don't kill people, but the reality is they do, it is their intended purpose whilst a car was not produced for that purpose and yes explosives and bomb making chemicals should be closely monitored. I expect it is easier to buy a gun than ammonium nitrate

Who needs a hand gun with an extended clip of 30 rounds
I'm willing to wait on this until more details emerge . Lots of bogus information about guns and ammo is out there. The Gloc standard clip holds around 15 rounds if I'm not mistaken . An extended clip is a lot of extra weight if indeed 30 rounds . J-9 would know the details .

Do you think legal is a deterent ? What we don't get very often is how many people have fend off attack with their legal guns.

True freedom is being able to walk the streets in the assurance that the fellow next to you isn't about to blow you awayHello again, clete:

Let me see... True freedom is when the government tells you what you CAN and CAN'T have in your pocket.. DUDE!

excon

Yes, Hitler much have had true freedom, there was almost no crime in Germany prior to WWII.

I was in Columbia before, they had police with automatic weapons every few blocks, I had to show my papers to go from place to place, But no fear of being robbed or killed
* well except from the government

Hello again, clete:

Lemme see... True freedom is when the government tells you what you CAN and CAN'T have in your pocket.. DUDE!

excon

Ex they did that a long time ago when they printed currency instead of minted it and I'll bet you don't object to not having gold and that worthless paper just got more worthless if that's possible courtesy of your government and your rights. You don't object to that abuse of freedom, but when some idiot wastes eighteen people you defend his right to do so, to carry a gun in his pocket. absolutely rediculous.

Why does government exist Ex, to project rights and the basic right it protects above all others is the right to life, but I expect that has been forgotten while the sicko's whine about their rights

but when some idiot wastes eighteen people you defend his right to do so....

Why does government exist Ex, to project rights and the basic right it protects above all is the right to life,Hello clete:

You don't help your cause much when you LIE about what your detractors say - especially when it's available for everybody to read... I shan't even dignify your crap with a response...

I WILL respond to your second assertion, though.. OUR government exists to protect the rights of its citizens as outlined in our Bill of Rights... YOUR government does something else... I'll take MINE over YOURS any time.

excon

I'm willing to wait on this until more details emerge . Lots of bogus information about guns and ammo is out there. The Gloc standard clip holds around 15 rounds if I'm not mistaken . An extended clip is alot of extra weight if indeed 30 rounds . J-9 would know the details .

The term is magazine, not clip. ;)

The amount of rounds a magazine holds varies per firearm. Same with the amount of rounds per extended magazine.

Hello clete:

You don't help your cause much when you LIE about what your detractors say - especially when it's available for everybody to read... I shan't even dignify your crap with a response...

I WILL respond to your second assertion, though.. OUR government exists to protect the rights of its citizens as outlined in our Bill of Rights... YOUR government does something else... I'll take MINE over YOURS any time.

excon

It happens Ex that my government does defend the rights of its citizens according to our constitution which doesn't allow its citizens to possess military style weapons and thereby place other citizens at risk. We finally took that step after a similar massacre and we have not been overrun by criminals

Hello clete:

I WILL respond to your second assertion, though.. OUR government exists to protect the rights of its citizens as outlined in our Bill of Rights... YOUR government does something else... I'll take MINE over YOURS any time.

excon


Hi Ex,

Your constitution is an example of negative liberty. The absence of restraint by outside agencies, e.g. government. This idea had its origins in the 17th century. As Clete points out negative liberty needs to be balanced against positive liberty. In other words, along with liberty there must come responsibility.

Who is prepared to take responsibility for the actions for an out of control few? It makes no sense to say that these types of individuals are responsible for their own actions. Negative liberty doesn't work the same way for people who won't or can't take responsibility for their actions.

There is no freedom if you see freedom as and end within itself. I think is this is why there is such a great divide between left and right. Both left and right believe they are pursuing freedom as an end. Pursuing 'rights' drives the left and right further apart.

This is evident in this forum anyway.



Regards

Tut

The term is magazine, not clip. ;)

The amount of rounds a magazine holds varies per firearm. Same with the amount of rounds per extended magazine.

Id like to add to this. There are firearms out there that have used the "Glock" mag as part of their platform. One is Keltec and they use them in their sub2000. Glock mags come in many sizes. 30 is popular size for many of the off brand guns.


On a side note its not how many rounds you have because it only takes 1 to kill. And the ones that have spray and pray in mind are the ones that don't care about anything but appearing on the news.

If everyone carried and was proficient at it then much of this would stop. After his first shot he would be dropped. End of story.


(spelling edited after post) thanks J-9

Id like to add to this. There are firearms out there that have used the "Glock" mag as part of thier platform. One is Keltech and they use them in thier sub2000. Glock mags come in many sizes. 30 is popular size for many of the off brand guns.


On a side note its not how many rounds you have because it only takes 1 to kill. And the ones that have spray and pray in mind are the ones that dont care about anything but appearing on the news.

If everyone carried and was proficient at it then much of this would stop. After his first shot he would be dropped. End of story.

Thanks for the backup there. I just woke up when I posted. Oh, and it's KelTec.

30 is a popular size, but many come in 15 as well.

Does anyone know what gun was used in this?

Have you seen the one about the 10 year old in Florida who shot his mother execution style?

Have you seen the one about the 10 year old in Florida who shot his mother execution style?

What??

When did this happen ?

Happened January 5

Dang, I can't C&P...

Search Deborah McVay shot dead by 10-year old

Happened January 5

Dang, I can't C&P....

Search Deborah McVay shot dead by 10-year old

Here is a link.


Deborah McVay shot dead by 10-year-old son in Ohio | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1343773/Deborah-McVay-shot-dead-10-year-old-son-Ohio.html)

Negative liberty doesn't work the same way for people who won't or can't take responsibility for their actions.


And there is a presumption of a civil society. Other than that there are laws to cover the few. In fact;he broke the law by using his gun to attack other humans.

The only real question here is ;was there a breakdown in the system when he was able to purchase the gun ? This questions links nicely with the OP about mental health.

But to say that millions of responsible gun owners should lose their right to protect themselves is absurd. As has already been pointed out here ;authoritarian systems are good at restricting legal gun ownership.

Why is anyone closing member discussions just for straying off topic a little anyway? Seems silly to me.

Why is anyone closing member discussions just for straying off topic a little anyway? Seems silly to me.
I agree with you. It started here: https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/us-rep-gabrielle-giffords-d-az-541924-4.html

So the OP strayed off course? That makes a lot of sense.

The term is magazine, not clip. ;)

The amount of rounds a magazine holds varies per firearm. Same with the amount of rounds per extended magazine.

My point proven... the media has been calling it an 'extended clip' .

The shooter had a fairly long history of mental health issues and drug use yet why was he still able to purchase a firearm? There is one thing I have always wondered but was unsure about, mayble someone here is aware of the law. Suppose someone wants to buy a gun. He passes the background checks, but for some reason, the store owner has a bad feeling about the purchaser. I want to know if he can refuse to sell him a gun based on his gut feeling, or would that be a violation of the buyer's rights? I think that background checks should do a better job revealing mental health issues and it is outrageous that people can buy guns at some gun shows and pawn shops without even a background check.

The shooter had a fairly long history of mental health issues and drug use yet why was he still able to purchase a firearm? There is one thing I have always wondered but was unsure about, mayble someone here is aware of the law. Suppose someone wants to buy a gun. He passes the background checks, but for some reason, the store owner has a bad feeling about the purchaser. I want to know if he can refuse to sell him a gun based on his gut feeling, or would that be a violation of the buyer's rights? I think that background checks should do a better job revealing mental health issues and it is outrageous that people can buy guns at some gun shows and pawn shops without even a background check.

As far as selling a gun to someone its not any kind of violation not to sell it to them. The background checks vary by state law.

The shooter had a fairly long history of mental health issues and drug use yet why was he still able to purchase a firearm? There is one thing I have always wondered but was unsure about, mayble someone here is aware of the law. Suppose someone wants to buy a gun. He passes the background checks, but for some reason, the store owner has a bad feeling about the purchaser. I want to know if he can refuse to sell him a gun based on his gut feeling, or would that be a violation of the buyer's rights? I think that background checks should do a better job revealing mental health issues and it is outrageous that people can buy guns at some gun shows and pawn shops without even a background check.

You are kidding, right? No one conferred a right on anyone to be able to buy a gun from a particular place. No wonder things are so screwed up. When people think they have a right to do anything they think