I just got saved today and I want to start my life with the lord. Are there any suggestions on how to more better my relationship?

Treat others the way you would want them to treat you.

Okay thank u :)

Treat others the way you would want them to treat you.Good advice. I do that and I'm not even a christian.

Pretty,

I suggest you really learn and understand the GRACE of the Lord Jesus. Christianity is so not about do's and don't's... it is about what has been DONE through Jesus Christ and being transformed to His image.

Other than the Bible, I would suggest reading, or listening to Pastor Joseph Prince. He points you to the Lord Jesus and his wonderful Grace, he makes it easy to understand. That is what I would have LOVE to have been told when I was saved.

Pretty,

I suggest you really learn and understand the GRACE of the Lord Jesus. Christianity is so not about do's and don't's ...it is about what has been DONE thru Jesus Christ and being transformed to His image.


I quite agree. And get connected with other believers who understand this.

I quite agree. And get connected with other believers who understand this.

Tried to give a greenie but AMHD thinks I need to spread the rep. Great minds think alike dude! We agree quite a bit... are you officially frightened? :)

How do you know that it's for real ? What evidence do you have that you're not just deluding yourself ?

Many people claim to be true born again Christians. In fact millions believe they're saved. But the Bible warns that many will be deceived. So again, what makes you sure ?

Of course you owe me nothing, not even an explanation. But really, I am trying to be helpful and give a real answer to your question.

Head.. Congratulation on you taking a strong step by accepting the Lord. I was watching Charles Stanley on TV the other day and he has a New Believers guide. Check that out.

How do you know that it's for real ? What evidence do you have that you're not just deluding yourself ?

Many people claim to be true born again Christians. In fact millions believe they're saved. But the Bible warns that many will be deceived. So again, what makes you sure ?

Of course you owe me nothing, not even an explanation. But really, I am trying to be helpful and give a real answer to your question.

What verse are you quoting... that many will be deceived about their salvation? There is a verse in Mathew that I will paraphrase.. the Lord says many will come to him in that day ( the day of Judgement) and say Lord, Lord haven't we done wonderful works in your name and the Lord says... depart from me you workers of inquity.. I NEVER knew you.

He says to them.. ".i NEVER knew you"... not" I knew you once but i kicked you out because you left me..or you did this or that wrong". Notice that these people don't know the Lord Jesus.. they doing good works in his name but do NOT have a relationship...

I will be more than happy to answer your question...

I know I am saved because the bible says clearly:

If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in thine heart that God raised him from the dead... THOU SHALT BE SAVED. Romans 10:9

I have confessed and I do believe and therefore I am saved!

Ephesians 1:13 says I was sealed with the Holy spirit when I believed the gospel check it out... In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


Hebrews 13: 5 says that the Lord himself has promised this to us... I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

That is how I KNOW I am real and... just for grins... Romans 8:16 says:

For his Spirit joins with our spirit to affirm that we are God's children.


I'm not working for my salvation, I'm not striving for it... I believe. GRACE! Understanding his wonderful Grace. That is the best advice I could ever give a new believer...

Sorryyyy... My mistake. I apologies. I addressed Prettypenguin as Head. I just realized my mistake. Sorry Prettypeg..!

Quoting classyT:
"What verse are you quoting...that many will be deceived about their salvation ?"

Actually there are a number of verses that address your question.
[1]Matthew 24:24 "...insomuch that if (it were) possible they shall deceive the very elect."
[2]Matthew 24:5 "... saying I am Christ and shall deceive many."
[3]Mark 13:6 "... saying I am (Christ) and shall deceive many."
[4]Luke 21:8 "Take heed that ye be not deceived. For many shall come in my name, saying..."
[5]2 Corinth.11:13 "...deceitful workers transforming themselves into apostles of Christ."

Also 1 Thessalonians 1:3 says "... your work of faith... " and 2 Thessalonians 1:11 says "... the work of faith with power." These verses and others show that believing IS work. So much for doing no work to become saved.

These verses and others show that believing IS work. So much for doing no work to become saved.
"By grace are you saved, through faith. It is a gift of God, not works, lest any man should boast." Eph. 2:8,9.

Quoting classyT:
"What verse are you quoting...that many will be deceived about their salvation ?"

Actually there are a number of verses that address your question.
[1]Matthew 24:24 "...insomuch that if (it were) possible they shall deceive the very elect."
[2]Matthew 24:5 "...saying I am Christ and shall deceive many."
[3]Mark 13:6 "...saying I am (Christ) and shall deceive many."
[4]Luke 21:8 "Take heed that ye be not deceived. For many shall come in my name, saying..."
[5]2 Corinth.11:13 "...deceitful workers transforming themselves into apostles of Christ."

Also 1 Thessalonians 1:3 says "...your work of faith..." and 2 Thessalonians 1:11 says "...the work of faith with power." These verses and others show that believing IS work. So much for doing no work to become saved.

Headstrong,
Put the verses in context... Jesus is speaking of people who say they ARE the Christ and come to decieve... He has come already, died, rose again. You wanted to know how she knew she wasn't being deceived. If she is believeing the Bible... and the JESUS of the Bible... she isn't being deceived. Neither am I. Are you?

For without faith it is impossible to please God. Faith ( or believing) plus nothing. Wondergirl said it all with her verse.

I still don't get your point.

Quoting classyT:

I still don't bet your point.

Ah. But I do get YOUR point ! I understand that the doctrines you espouse are more or less what the mainstream churches teach. And the fact is that they do NOT follow the WHOLE Bible. Only some verses here and there that their theologians have interpreted to suit their limited understanding. Hence the salvation plan you follow is patently FALSE.

If you claim to be saved BECAUSE YOU BELIEVED, THEN you're trusting your faith as having made some contribution to being saved. That concept is entirely DISOBEDIENT to God's actual plan. But I understand WHY you think that. It's because it's what the churches taught. The few verses you've quoted must be understood in light of the whole Bible. And you are CHOOSING to look at them as if they are CRYSTAL CLEAR as they stand. They are NOT. It's a trap. Consider for example Exodus 31:13. And Numbers 15:33-36. Do you suppose for one minute that the salvation of the Old Testament is one whit different from the salvation of the New ?

Hence the salvation plan you follow is patently FALSE.
In 25 words or less (in your own words, with no proof passages), what is the salvation plan YOU follow?

You are saved by accepting Christ as your saviour, You do this though faith, but not because of your faith, but with faith. If and when you are saved, you will want to do good works, but the good works will never save you. There are plenty of non saved that run great charities, that do all sorts of wonderful things, but the works do not save.

Jesus died on the Cross to be the final sacrifice for our sin, his death paid that final price so that none have to.

Quoting Wondergirl:
"Using 25 words or less...etc."

There is no salvation other than from the Bible. Therefore your generous offer of "25 words or less" is in effect saying that you don't wish to READ anything further I might have to say. OK !

Quoting Fr_Chuck:
"You do this through faith, but not because of your faith, etc."

I understand the fine distinction you've drawn quite clearly. Thank you. But my point is that it is still YOU who is doing it. My understanding of the scriptures is that God Himself does it ALL. And further we can "ACCEPT" Jesus every day and twice on Sunday, but that does NOT get us saved. He is the one who must accept us OR NOT.

I guess one could look at a person accepting Christ as a work, it is something you have to do, make a commitment, but the bible is clear that you must accept Christ as your savior and very clear that works can not save you.

A person who of course claims to be saved and does not work, while it is not our place to judge, but if there is no works, have they really accepted? Not my place to say, but they have to do the acceptance, that is salvation, the works is our duty as a chrsitian

Quoting Wondergirl:
"Using 25 words or less...etc."

There is no salvation other than from the Bible. Therefore your generous offer of "25 words or less" is in effect saying that you don't wish to READ anything further I might have to say. OK !

I'm sure I've spent more time reading the Bible than you have (and yes, merely reading the Bible doesn't save). I've read every single word you've written on this site, but still don't know exactly what you believe about salvation.

So, you're saying you cannot encapsulate salvation? I can. We cooperate with the Holy Spirit's working faith in us. I stand by Ephesians 2:8,9 as a great summary of God's work of salvation in me.

Wondergirl, I see your encapsulation of salvation by the use of Ephesians 2:8,9 as an extreme OVERSIMPLIFICATION. After all it took God the entire Bible to present the Gospel to the world.

And yes I can give a summation that includes one very important aspect you seem to have excluded from your "encapsulation." That is the aspect of judgment and the coming Judgment Day on the unsaved of the world. Matthew 5:13 speaks about salt having lost its savour. Salt being a symbol God uses for judgment.

A much more balanced picture of the WHOLE GOSPEL is given by 2 Corinthians 2:15 and 16. And you could throw in verse 17 for good measure. Happy reading !

Wondergirl, I see your encapsulation of salvation by the use of Ephesians 2:8,9 as an extreme OVERSIMPLIFICATION.
I asked you for a summary only of salvation, not of damnation.

But that is the trouble, Salvation is simple, people were being saved after Christs death with no bible, just the very simple story of Jesus death and raising from the dead.

Trying to make it complicated is the real problem, Peter when he talked and converted and saved people after Christ death had no writings from Paul, and neither did Mathew or any of the other churches,

In fact even up to the Catholic Church deciding what books made up the bible, not all churches even had all of the books. And since they were hand written, it was most likely years and years before they had all of the writings.

Salvation is simple, until man confuses it with religion

And further we can "ACCEPT" Jesus every day and twice on Sunday, but that does NOT get us saved. He is the one who must accept us OR NOT.

John 6:37, 40. The Father calls, but we are required to respond. And anyone who responds, Jesus won't drive them away.

It sounds to me like you want to absolve yourself of any responsibility in your own salvation; "God accepts me so it doesn't matter if I've ever responded or not." There's a fine balance between God's sovereignty and human responsibility. The biggest errors come when people lean too far in one direction or the other. The Bible teaches both. Get used to it.

And anyone who responds, Jesus won't drive them away.
I wonder why HSB thinks Jesus "accepts them or not"? Why would Jesus not accept someone?

I wonder why HSB thinks Jesus "accepts them or not"? Why would Jesus not accept someone?

Bad breath? ;)

Quoting Fr_Chuck:
"...the Catholic Church deciding what books made up the bible."

It is true that the Catholic Church has added some books to ITS version of the Bible called "The Apocrypha." However those books do not really belong there, in my opinion and in the opinion of some others. Also I believe that God alone decided what books should be included in the Bible, and which ones should not be included. Because God is the actual author of the Bible, and the various names given to the various books are only the names of people that God used as scribes that took His dictation.

It is also true that many people were saved without having access to the complete Bible as we do today. But the fact remains that WE DO HAVE ACCESS to the complete Bible. And it is a wonderful blessing from God. And He expects His people to appreciate it, and to respect it, and to make EVERY EFFORT to keep learning more and more truth from His word. And the plain fact is that the Bible is NOT a SIMPLE BOOK. So to try and simplify God's message by ignoring the Bible is NOT the best approach to understanding salvation.

However those books do not really belong there, in my opinion and in the opinion of some others.
Your opinion and the opinion of "others" may very well be incorrect. Certainly the Catholic Church disagrees with you.

Also I believe that God alone decided what books should be included in the Bible, and which ones should not be included.
Please quote from the Bible God's list of accepted books.

Because God is the actual author of the Bible, and the various names given to the various books are only the names of people that God used as scribes that took His dictation.
I'll let dwashbur respond to this one, if he wishes to. He has taken far more theology courses than I have.

So to try and simplify God's message by ignoring the Bible is NOT the best approach to understanding salvation.
The salvation message in the Bible is actually very simple. Old Testament SOS = Show's Oyour Sin. New Testament SOS = Show's Oyour Savior. Amen.

Quoting Wondergirl:
"Why would Jesus not accept someone?"

The answer is that Jesus is God. And God works and CAN work ONLY ACCORDING TO HIS OWN LAW. His law states that "The soul that sinneth it shall die." Therefore the death penalty MUST BE PAID for every sinful soul that is chosen to be saved. The fact is that Jesus MADE PAYMENT ONLY FOR S-O-M-E. NOT for all human beings that ever lived. Therefore God must reject those that Jesus has NOT MADE PAYMENT FOR.

Therefore God must reject those that Jesus has NOT MADE PAYMENT FOR.
Jesus died for all.

Quoting dwashbur:
"Bad Breath?"

And the mockery continues.

Quoting Wondergirl:
"Jesus died for all."

Please quote from the Bible where it says that Jesus died for the sins of all humanity that ever lived on Earth.

Quoting Wondergirl:
"Jesus died for all."

Please quote from the Bible where it says that Jesus died for the sins of all humanity that ever lived on Earth.
That's why we read the entire Bible, to find that out.

1 John 2:2, "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

1 Tim. 2:6, "[Jesus] gave Himself a ransom for all."

Heb. 2:9, "But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone."

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes should not perish but have everlasting life."

Wondergirl, you very conveniently omitted Ephesians 1:4,5, and 11. Are you saying that God chose ALL (us) to "be holy and without blame." That is He made payment for all, and chose all. BUT some of those He chose would not actually be saved ? That would be a contradiction of John 6:39. "That all of which He hath given me I should lose nothing..."

You SAY that "we read the entire Bible." But you do not actually APPLY the light of the whole Bible to every verse. Otherwise there COULD BE NO CONTRADICTION, as I have indicated.

Are you saying that God chose ALL (us) to "be holy and without blame."
I'm saying (the NT says) Jesus died for all.

Are you a Calvinist?

Quoting Wondergirl:
"I'm saying...etc."

No, the way you read the NT, it says that.

Taking into account the verses I have quoted it says something altogether different.

Taking into account the verses I have quoted it says something altogether different.
Then, one of us may be wrong.

Quoting Wondergirl:
Then, one or both...etc.

I agree. Very democratic of you to say so.

But... how many logical positions on this issue are there ?
[1]He died for all of humanity.
[2]He died for only the elect. (Some of humanity) A remnant.
[3]Other ? (Unknown)

1. Christ died for some of the sins of all humanity.

2. Christ died for all the sins of some of humanity.

3. Christ died for all the sins of all humanity.

I vote for #3.

Clearly you're free to vote all you want. But my point is that we need to base doctrine on a careful evaluation of the Bible. And not permit it to degenerate to a mere expression of my opinion versus the opinions of others.

Clearly you're free to vote all you want. But my point is that we need to base doctrine on a careful evaluation of the Bible.
I have.

And not permit it to degenerate to a mere expression of my opinion versus the opinions of others.
No, never. Good heavens!

Also I believe that God alone decided what books should be included in the Bible, and which ones should not be included.

And how exactly did he make known which were which?


Because God is the actual author of the Bible, and the various names given to the various books are only the names of people that God used as scribes that took His dictation.

I'm not sure what the names of the books have to do with anything, but the dictation idea is ridiculous. If God dictated word for word, then he couldn't make up his mind what kind of writing style to use, and in the case of Revelation, apparently he barely knew Greek at all, though he knew it quite well when he dictated Luke and Hebrews.


It is also true that many people were saved without having access to the complete Bible as we do today. But the fact remains that WE DO HAVE ACCESS to the complete Bible.

So what? Your point was


There is no salvation other than from the Bible.

You said several times that it requires the entire Bible to understand and achieve salvation. Fr. Chuck pointed out that plenty of people were saved without any Bible at all, or just bits and pieces, and you have completely sidestepped that. I have to wonder why you don't address the point that you yourself made.


And it is a wonderful blessing from God. And He expects His people to appreciate it, and to respect it, and to make EVERY EFFORT to keep learning more and more truth from His word. And the plain fact is that the Bible is NOT a SIMPLE BOOK. So to try and simplify God's message by ignoring the Bible is NOT the best approach to understanding salvation.

Same problem. As Fr. Chuck already pointed out, and you agreed, plenty of people were saved without access to the whole Bible, so your reasoning doesn't hold up, because reality contradicts it.

Quoting dwashbur:
"How exactly...etc.?"
How He makes it known to us today is through the harmony that the included books have with one another. And the excluded books do not harmonize.

"I'm not sure what the names...etc."
As you well know the names of the books are often used by theologians to indicate AUTHORSHIP. For example Matthew wrote the book called Matthew, John wrote the book called John, etc.

"the dictation idea is ridiculous...etc."
The differences in style you correctly point out do NOT eliminate the idea of dictation. Why is it not possible that God could use the styles of the various individuals AND YET express EXACTLY the words HE wanted them to say ? There is no reason that such a thing would be impossible for God.

"So what ? Your point was...etc."
The point of HAVING access to the completed Bible is that we are to make use of it, and to CONTINUE TO STUDY PARTICULARLY THOSE PARTS THAT ARE NOT YET UNDERSTOOD BY US. And there is NO WAY that you can honestly tell ME that you currently understand ALL OF IT. NO WAY !!!

"You said several times...etc."
I still maintain that it is necessary to look at everything in the whole Bible to come to a proper understanding of God's plan of salavation. But... understanding salvation is NOT THE SAME AS ACHIEVING SALVATION. I would NEVER make such a statement. We CAN UNDERSTAND, but that is mere KNOWLEDGE. God Himself is still in charge of actually saving ANYONE. So, therefore understanding His plan, while important and necessary for those who claim to follow the Bible PARTICULARLY, it still does not GET US SAVED. God Himself MUST do that. And He has done it for many that do not understand very much about the Bible. See the distinction ?

God Himself is still in charge of actually saving ANYONE. [Knowledge and understanding] still do not GET US SAVED. God Himself MUST do that.
So God willy-nilly rejects some of humankind?

I thought the bible told us that Jesus died, so that all can be saved. He did not say those that he choice could be saved

Quoting dwashbur:
"How exactly...etc.?"
How He makes it known to us today is through the harmony that the included books have with one another. And the excluded books do not harmonize.

But how did they get collected? Who did it and how did they know? That's the question, and you haven't answered it.

And by the way, the Epistle of Barnabas, the Shepherd of Hermas and several other "excluded books" harmonize quite nicely with the books that were judged canonical. So your supposed criterion doesn't work. And even supposing it did, you still had to have SOMEBODY decide which ones harmonized and which ones didn't. Who was it, and how do you know they were right?


"I'm not sure what the names...etc."
As you well know the names of the books are often used by theologians to indicate AUTHORSHIP. For example Matthew wrote the book called Matthew, John wrote the book called John, etc.

But what does it have to do with the subject at hand? Answer: nothing.


"the dictation idea is ridiculous...etc."
The differences in style you correctly point out do NOT eliminate the idea of dictation. Why is it not possible that God could use the styles of the various individuals AND YET express EXACTLY the words HE wanted them to say ? There is no reason that such a thing would be impossible for God.

There is no reason for God to do it this way, either. If you read a book like Isaiah or Ezekiel, you realize that many of the things God revealed to the prophets came in the form of visual images, not words, and the prophets wrote down what they saw as best they could. You really need to check out some basic books on Bible interpretation, because your idea was debunked centuries ago.


"So what ? Your point was...etc."
The point of HAVING access to the completed Bible is that we are to make use of it, and to CONTINUE TO STUDY PARTICULARLY THOSE PARTS THAT ARE NOT YET UNDERSTOOD BY US. And there is NO WAY that you can honestly tell ME that you currently understand ALL OF IT. NO WAY !!!

This is another dodge. You said that a person had to have the entire Bible to be saved. Now you're changing your tune. I'm asking you to back up your own words with something tangible, and I'm still waiting for you to do so.


"You said several times...etc."
I still maintain that it is necessary to look at everything in the whole Bible to come to a proper understanding of God's plan of salavation. But... understanding salvation is NOT THE SAME AS ACHIEVING SALVATION. I would NEVER make such a statement. We CAN UNDERSTAND, but that is mere KNOWLEDGE. God Himself is still in charge of actually saving ANYONE. So, therefore understanding His plan, while important and necessary for those who claim to follow the Bible PARTICULARLY, it still does not GET US SAVED. God Himself MUST do that. And He has done it for many that do not understand very much about the Bible. See the distinction ?

That makes as much sense as the average political speech. You said the entire Bible is required for salvation. Fr. Chuck and others pointed out that countless people have been saved without it, many because it hadn't been written yet. The thief on the cross was saved before Jesus even died. Now you want to make some kind of distinction between understanding and achieving, and you're just going in circles. And if it's all God and nothing of man, then nobody can really "achieve" salvation anyway, so your distinction is between nothing and... nothing. If the whole Bible is necessary for salvation, then it is. But if it isn't, then it isn't. I don't think you really have a clue what you're actually trying to say. Perhaps a bit more of a teachable spirit is in order.

Quoting Wondergirl:
"So God willy-nilly rejects...etc."

Not at all ! God is able to accept or to reject ONLY ACCORDING TO HIS OWN LAW.

Those who are rejected SIMPLY HAVE NOT HAD THEIR SINS PAYED FOR. Which is a fact you do not accept as true. Therefore you cannot see the "LEGALITY" of God's choices.

Those who are rejected SIMPLY HAVE NOT HAD THEIR SINS PAYED FOR. Which is a fact you do not accept as true. Therefore you cannot see the "LEGALITY" of God's choices.
You are making a very simple concept extremely complex.

Quoting Wondergirl:
"So God willy-nilly rejects...etc."

Not at all ! God is able to accept or to reject ONLY ACCORDING TO HIS OWN LAW.

Those who are rejected SIMPLY HAVE NOT HAD THEIR SINS PAYED FOR. Which is a fact you do not accept as true. Therefore you cannot see the "LEGALITY" of God's choices.

See post number 33 by WG, citing several verses that say in so many words that Jesus died for EVERYBODY, which means he "payed" for everyone's sins. So you're the one not seeing what the Bible actually says.

Dwashbur, I'm familiar with the Bible verses that you refer to. God wrote them deliberately that way to make it possible to interpret them that way IF one does not follow the rule of VERY CAREFULLY LOOKING AT ALL THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT THAT SUBJECT.

And I further am aware that I am NOT the only one who understands the question in that way. Though on this particular forum, if anybody DOES DARE to think or believe differently than the CONSENSUS, they will very quickly be made to feel very frustrated and perhaps want to give up sharing knowledge with such stubborn and closed minded people as yourself.

Dwashbur, I'm familiar with the Bible verses that you refer to. God wrote them deliberately that way to make it possible to interpret them that way IF one does not follow the rule of VERY CAREFULLY LOOKING AT ALL THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT THAT SUBJECT.
I have, for years and years -- since I was about four years old. You (and some others) have a secret understanding?

if anybody DOES DARE to think or believe differently than the CONSENSUS
So the "consensus" is wrong, and you are correct?

Dwashbur, I'm familiar with the Bible verses that you refer to. God wrote them deliberately that way to make it possible to interpret them that way IF one does not follow the rule of VERY CAREFULLY LOOKING AT ALL THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT THAT SUBJECT.

So, let me get this straight. All those people who didn't have ALL of the Bible didn't have a snowball's chance of getting statements like those correct because God was trying to fool them? Your statement doesn't make any sense. God, by direct word for word dictation, made deliberately misleading statements? So your God is a borderline liar, based on what you just said. Is that really where you want to end up?

And using a bunch of capitals and underlines and all that stuff doesn't help your case. It just makes you look childish.


And I further am aware that I am NOT the only one who understands the question in that way. Though on this particular forum, if anybody DOES DARE to think or believe differently than the CONSENSUS, they will very quickly be made to feel very frustrated and perhaps want to give up sharing knowledge with such stubborn and closed minded people as yourself.

If you really spent any time on this forum, you'd realize that there is no "consensus" about much of anything. That's one of the fun things about it, as long as you're willing to consider other people's points of view. I find it laughable that you call me "closed minded," when all I have said is "there are other points of view, and yours has holes in it" while you are pounding the pulpit and shouting and underlining to insist that there is one, and only one, point of view, and yours is right and anybody who doesn't agree with you probably isn't saved. So we can add hypocrisy to everything else, because that is the definition of "closed minded."

I have suggested that you need a more teachable spirit, and I will suggest it again. There are lots of people here who have a lot more experience and knowledge of the Bible and Christianity than you have; I've been reading the Bible in its original languages for over 40 years, and we have ministers, scholars, informed lay people, and a huge spectrum of viewpoints and insights. Instead of ridiculing them all and insisting that yours is the only view, why don't you try exploring some of those viewpoints and insights and see what you can learn?

Quoting dwashbur:
"So let me get this straight....etc."

You do have it PARTLY correct. God wasn't trying to fool them (and us) in the same sense that a human being would try to fool somebody. Because God is NOT human at all. And He CANNOT lie. But... HE CAN and HE DOES CONCEAL truth IN HIS WORD. And YES by word for word dictation HE HAS made deliberately misleading statements. That is His privilege. One of the purposes of these misleading statements is that the information relating to the end of time and to judgment could NOT be found out by human effort UNTIL God made that knowledge available (in our time).

In case you're interested, this "case" as you call it is not mine at all. But by using capitals and underlines it helps me to express the EMPHASIS I think is required to make my points. If you consider that childish, so be it. Perhaps what is required of us by God is a child-like approach to trusting the complete accuracy of His word in the original languages and in its ENTIRETY. I refer to the original King James version.

Quoting Wondergirl:
"Why would Jesus not accept someone?"

The answer is that Jesus is God. And God works and CAN work ONLY ACCORDING TO HIS OWN LAW. His law states that "The soul that sinneth it shall die." Therefore the death penalty MUST BE PAID for every sinful soul that is chosen to be saved. The fact is that Jesus MADE PAYMENT ONLY FOR S-O-M-E. NOT for all human beings that ever lived. Therefore God must reject those that Jesus has NOT MADE PAYMENT FOR.

Headstrong...

WOW! According to the scriptures Jesus is the last Adam, he came and died for the entire world and WHOSOEVER will may come. God rejects no one... WHOSOEVER wants to call upon the name of the Lord SHALL BE SAVED... hello? The message is a very simple thing on PURPOSE! Is the Bible simple... no WAY. It takes the Holy Spirit to understand the Word. There is so much in the Bible I suppose we will be learning new things forever about it. But the Gospel is simple... WhoSOEVER will may come. Nothing tricky ricky about that.

Incidentally, Ephesians was written directly to the church, or directly to Christians who are already saved. Paul is speaking to the church about our POSITION in Christ, our walk and then spirtual warfare... is isn't a book about HOW to get saved.

I'm really confused about who you think can be saved.. and exactly who you think Jesus died for. You keep talking about reading the entire bible. I'm all for that. But when you DO, learn to rightly divide it like Paul taught. Who is it written directly to, when was written, why it was written and how it applies to you. Otherwise it causes confusion and error in doctrine. Also never mix law with grace. I'm sure my advice will go over like a led balloon but what the heck... I will give it a whirl anyway.

One last thought, God is a JUST God. If he didn't send Jesus to die for ALL of mankind then he doesn't sound too just to me. When the people he DIDN'T die for stand before the Great White Throne and the Lord judges them... what will they say? It is your fault God, Jesus didn't die for my sins.. he didn't pay for me. It makes no sense headstrong.

Quoting dwashbur:
"So let me get this straight....etc."

You do have it PARTLY correct. God wasn't trying to fool them (and us) in the same sense that a human being would try to fool somebody. Because God is NOT human at all. And He CANNOT lie. But... HE CAN and HE DOES CONCEAL truth IN HIS WORD. And YES by word for word dictation HE HAS made deliberately misleading statements. That is His privilege. One of the purposes of these misleading statements is that the information relating to the end of time and to judgment could NOT be found out by human effort UNTIL God made that knowledge available (in our time).

Any way you slice it, this makes him a liar. The supposedly concealed things are most often presented in visual metaphoric images. That's something very different than what you're claiming for those verses. If you're going to compare things, compare apples to apples, not apples to rabbits. The verses in question are very plain and very clear. They are simple, declarative sentences that state a truth. If they are "deliberatly [sic] misleading" then your God is a liar. There's no way around it.


In case you're interested, this "case" as you call it is not mine at all. But by using capitals and underlines it helps me to express the EMPHASIS I think is required to make my points. If you consider that childish, so be it. Perhaps what is required of us by God is a child-like approach to trusting the complete accuracy of His word in the original languages and in its ENTIRETY. I refer to the original King James version.

The "original King James version," eh? Would it interest you to know that the King James version you claim as the "original" is actually a 1789 revision of the original 1611 text, made primarily by Mr. Webster of dictionary fame? You're not using the "original KJ, you're using a revision made over 150 years after the "original." And the " And the " King James itself was not a translation, but a revision of two earlier English versions, the Great Bible and the Geneva Bible. The list of revision goes on and on, until we finally get back to the actual original, the Greek text of the New Testament and the Hebrew and Aramaic texts of the Old Testament. There's nothing original at all about the King James.

And yes, the shouting etc. makes you look childish. If you can't show your emphasis without it, then you need a better command of the English language. Your appeal to "child-like approach" King James itself was not a translation, but a revision of two earlier English versions, the Great Bible and the Geneva Bible. The list of revision goes on and on, until we finally get back to the actual original, the Greek text of the New Testament and the Hebrew and Aramaic texts of the Old Testament. There's nothing original at all about the King James.

And yes, the shouting etc. makes you look childish. If you can't show your emphasis without it, then you need a better command of the English language. Your appeal to "it's okay to remain ignorant." The Bible is firmly against that, and I think you know it. All this is nothing but a cop-out. The sooner you recognize that, the sooner you can start to make some real progress in your understanding of the Scriptures.

Agreed, the King James is by far not the best translation available. The use of old English is one issue, many terms need more modern translation to be clear. But if one wants to really study to "pick apart verses" you have to go back to the Greek, There is nothing special about the King James version that makes it better, if it was written today, one would challenge its translators as people challenge the ones today as having their own agenda. One may want to go back to the Latin verson ( much older translation) to come back to the English.

What I see as a real problem and I will say problem is that headstrong looks or wants legalism to be a issue, that nothing is easy, and simple, and that God is playing some funny game with humans for his enjoyment. He seems to have accepted every bad belief of various christian groups into one belief ( assuming he really believes this and is not merely being trollish for his enjoyment) From the law, to predestined to works, every blockade to salvation is given by him. Which of course leads to the issue, that one can not be saved if you feel that it is all for things you do,

Headstrong,

I'm not picking on you... just curious and trying to understand what you believe. Do you consider yourself saved? Why or why not.

Headstrong, Do you consider yourself saved? why or why not.
From what I've gleaned from his posts, he believes he is saved, but has suggested that few, including us ("the consensus"), are (yet we think we are).

WG-

Gotcha. Thanks!
Headstrong - according to your understanding of the King James version of the Bible can you tell me what I must do to be saved.

Hey classyT,
I tried to send you a PM and got a message that you're not receiving them any more. Que pasa, amiga??

Dave,

I fixed it... :). I have no clue why it was that way.

Quoting classyT:
Headstrong - according to your understanding of the King James version of the Bible can you tell me what I must do to be saved.

The simple answer is that actually we CAN do nothing to guarantee our own salvation.

For further clarification and supporting details the whole business becomes somewhat more complex. But in a nutshell what I have stated above is IT. That fact however does NOT absolve the candidate from doing his best to be as obedient as possible to all of God's commandments. God's commandments are given to the whole world so that mankind in general can have a reasonably happy life while on planet Earth. As I see it, morality and salvation are two entirely different issues. People are commanded to live morally whether God has elected to save them or not.

Thus, you believe man does not have free will.

If God chooses those who will be saved, what difference does it make for man to believe? Why preach the gospel?

Wondergirl:

Man has free will in the sense that we can choose the religion we prefer, and we can choose whom to marry, and a whole host of other choices we can make. But none of those choices can help us to get saved.

The issue of preaching the gospel is simply a matter of obedience to God's command. "Go ye therefore..."

Do you believe in total immersion baptism?

Do you believe that God planned the Fall into sin so there would be something to save His creatures from?

Do you believe that grace is irresistible for those God wants to save? In other words, they cannot say no and fall away at any time?

Now we're getting a little more complicated. But that's OK.

As far as I'm concerned one kind of water baptism ceremony is as good as any other kind of baptism ceremony. They are all OBSOLETE. Though we can LEARN something from water baptism because after all God did institute it for a purpose. That was a SIGN to demonstrate "See how water can wash the skin clean of dirt? In a similar way God Himself must wash away sins from our innermost being (our souls)IF we are to be saved."

Do you believe that God planned the Fall into sin so there would be something to save His creatures from?
The simplest answer I can give is... I don't know. But it is an interesting thought, isn't it ? After all God very well did know what would happen. And He had made preparation for it. And now that I think about it... yes. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil represents a "tesing program" to see whether humanity would continue to obey God. Clearly they (we) failed the test. Hence the salvation program was ready to begin its work during the whole history of mankind on Earth. How's that ?

The subject of Irresistible Grace

Clearly if the choice of whom to save is entirely God's own, then it must follow that those who are chosen have no alternative but to become saved and to never fall away. But all of that does not mean that we others can observe the inner workings of the details of that in another person's life. We would like to believe that those people who seem most moral and most up-standing are surely God's candidates for salvation. But as the Bible gives several examples, that is not necessarily so. For example the thief on the cross next to Jesus was an unrepentant criminal until just before he died. Shortly before his death Jesus accepted him into His kingdom. Another example was David's great sin of adultery with Bathsheba, and the murder of her husband. Horrific sins ! Yet David was a child of God. When He did repent his contrition was most eloquent and sincere. See Psalm 51.

So, everyone is subject to God's wrath, but He's chosen certain ones to be merciful to. In other words, He saves some and damns others.

How does He decide whom to save?

Quoting classyT:
Headstrong - according to your understanding of the King James version of the Bible can you tell me what I must do to be saved.

The simple answer is that actually we CAN do nothing to guarantee our own salvation.

For further clarification and supporting details the whole business becomes somewhat more complex. But in a nutshell what I have stated above is IT. That fact however does NOT absolve the candidate from doing his best to be as obedient as possible to all of God's commandments. God's commandments are given to the whole world so that mankind in general can have a reasonably happy life while on planet Earth. As I see it, morality and salvation are two entirely different issues. People are commanded to live morally whether God has elected to save them or not.

John 20:31
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life.

Note the recurring word "know." The Bible records what it does so that we can know that we are saved, that we have eternal life, and all the rest. Paul talks again and again about assurance of our salvation. The Bible says we can know. You say we can't. I'll go with the Bible, thank you.

Quoting Wondergirl:
How does He decide whom to save?

As can be seen the whole matter of salvation is not as simple as we might like it to be. Part of this question I have already addressed in other posts. But it's extremely important so I don't mind at all repeating some of it here. God does absolutely everything perfectly and according to His own law. That means first of all sins cannot just be ignored. There is a penalty prescribed by God's own law for sin. That penalty is DEATH. That means complete death, permanently, of the body and soul (the complete personality) of the offending humans. So whatever particular individual was chosen to be saved MUST have someone make the payment of the death penalty, as prescribed by God's own law, in his stead.

Also God had already anticipated the sins of those He chose, and NAMED, before He created them, before they even committed their first sins. He had named them, and made payment for their sins all before the very first day of creation.

As to what criteria God may have used to make His selections of particular individuals, the details are not given in the Bible. But the Bible does indicate that there is a definite number of people that are predestined to be saved. And it is NOT the entire population of the world that ever lived. The most probable number is found in Revelation 9:16. There are also some anecdotal Bible references to the "lot." God used the casting of lots to distribute parcels of the land of Canaan to the various tribes of Israel. For example Numbers 26:55, Numbers 33:54, Deuteronomy 32:9, and others. This indicates to me that the way God chose the persons to be saved was done deliberately in such a way as to APPEAR to us as RANDOM. Though God says in Acts 10:34 that He is not a "respecter of persons." And God also describes His SOVEREIGNTY over all games of chance, particularly the "lot." (Proverbs 16:33) In very simple terms that means God is not telling us the details of exactly how He determined which particular individuals were selected for salvation.

Quoting Wondergirl:
How does He decide whom to save?

As can be seen the whole matter of salvation is not as simple as we might like it to be. Part of this question I have already addressed in other posts. But it's extremely important so I don't mind at all repeating some of it here. God does absolutely everything perfectly and according to His own law. That means first of all sins cannot just be ignored. There is a penalty prescribed by God's own law for sin. That penalty is DEATH. That means complete death, permanently, of the body and soul (the complete personality) of the offending humans. So whatever particular individual was chosen to be saved MUST have someone make the payment of the death penalty, as prescribed by God's own law, in his stead.

Also God had already anticipated the sins of those He chose, and NAMED, before He created them, before they even committed their first sins. He had named them, and made payment for their sins all before the very first day of creation.

As to what criteria God may have used to make His selections of particular individuals, the details are not given in the Bible. But the Bible does indicate that there is a definite number of people that are predestined to be saved. And it is NOT the entire population of the world that ever lived. The most probable number is found in Revelation 9:16. There are also some anecdotal Bible references to the "lot." God used the casting of lots to distribute parcels of the land of Canaan to the various tribes of Israel. For example Numbers 26:55, Numbers 33:54, Deuteronomy 32:9, and others. This indicates to me that the way God chose the persons to be saved was done deliberately in such a way as to APPEAR to us as RANDOM. Though God says in Acts 10:34 that He is not a "respecter of persons." And God also describes His SOVEREIGNTY over all games of chance, particularly the "lot." (Proverbs 16:33) In very simple terms that means God is not telling us the details of exactly how He determined which particular individuals were selected for salvation.

Headstrong,

So then how can we have a relationship with him if we aren't his? Why did the Lord Jesus come show us how to love, how to have a relationship with God the Father, why was the veil torn into, why give us access to the throne of grace so we can bodly come whenever we want? Who then does the Lord say he will never leave nor forsake? Why bother saying such a thing, if we don't even know if we are his?

Basically you are stating you don't even know if you are saved. What joy is there for you? You seem to like the Old Testament a lot. Interesing don't you think that Noah and his family weren't given a really high bar to hang onto during the flood. Hoping they didn't fall from it but never really knowing if they would make it through. No, instead they were secure in a ARK ( picture of Lord Jesus), no one was coming in or going out when God shut that door. They were safe and secure and THEY KNEW IT. ;)

What a awful fearful life, I feel so sorry for you and who ever twisted Gods love in your heart and mind.

What a awful fearful life, I feel so sorry for you and who ever twisted Gods love in your heart and mind.

Jesus came to show the heart of our Father to mankind. His heart full of love and compassion. He would look out at the masses of people and see them as lost, scattered, skinned alive. His heart was full of love. He fed them spiritually, physcially and healed ALL lthat asked. And Headstrong is saying... we can't know that he KNOWS us, we can't know we are HIS. Very, very sad indeed!

Taking in ALL of the Old Testament and New Testament in the King James version, I'd say he is very wrong.

Basically you are stating you don't even know if you are saved. What joy is there for you?
He has stated that he believes HE is saved. I am still wondering how he know HE is, but we can't know for sure that WE are, that our salvation may be in grave doubt because God did not choose us.

What secret knowledge does he have? Does he understand the Bible in some way more clearly than we do?

WG,

Well you ,Dave and Fr_chuck.. I could understand! But ME! Ha ha ha... :)

He won't answer my question. I need to know how I can be saved according to him and know it, like him and he gives me nuttin. He's not doing very good on following ALL the Bible commands.

Quoting Wondergirl:
"He has stated that he believes HE is saved."

WRONG!! I NEVER stated any such a thing!! The fact is that I simply don't know for sure. Sometimes I feel, yes it's possible, because I do have a desire to obey God. At other times I say to myself, NAH ! Why on Earth would God save me ? I still enjoy sin from time to time. So the answer is I JUST DON'T KNOW.

But... I'd much rather feel the way that I do than to delude myself into thinking I am saved when I really have no definitive proof.

And furthermore, I never stated that it's impossible to know. CLEARLY the scriptures do say that it is possible to know. I would not deliberately contradict the Bible. Though to know whether any PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL is or is not saved is not my place to say. Only God sees the heart of the person. We cannot.

So how is it possible to know? You're saying we cannot know in this life, that we wander the earth full of fear and confusion and maybe even doubt?

Why don't YOU know?

I simply don't know for sure.
Funny. Salvation is the one thing I am SURE of in this life!

Sometimes I feel, yes it's possible, because I do have a desire to obey God.
No wonder you don't know, if you are counting on obedience to save you. Obedience is not what saves.

Why on Earth would God save me ?
Because he loves you? Because your name has always been written on the palm of His hand (Isaiah 49:16).

I still enjoy sin from time to time.
We all do. That's the wonder and beauty of God's love and grace, that He gives us the gift of salvation knowing we cannot be perfect in this life.

But... I'd much rather feel the way that I do than to delude myself into thinking I am saved when I really have no definitive proof.
The definite proof is in the message of the Gospel.

Quoting classyT:
I know I am saved because the bible says clearly:

If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in thine heart that God raised him from the dead... THOU SHALT BE SAVED. Romans 10:9

I have confessed and I do believe and therefore I am saved!

Ephesians 1:13 says I was sealed with the Holy spirit when I believed the gospel check it out... In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.

Clearly you already believe you're saved. So why on Earth would you even care to know what I think ? Obviously from everything I've said it should be clear that your version of salvation is a complete misunderstanding of scripture.

Obviously from everything I've said it should be clear that your version of salvation is a complete misunderstanding of scripture.
Or, your version of salvation is a complete misunderstanding of Scripture.

The Gospel is a very simple statement. Why complicate it?

Wondergirl:

There's a very basic concept that you seem to be NOT getting. Knowing and understanding salvation IS NOT THE SAME THING AS ACTUALLY HAVING IT.

And here's the difference between you and me. I believe that I have the understanding of it. And yet am not certain of my own status. You on the other hand do not understand it, as far as I can see. Yet you claim to be saved, postively.

Wondergirl:

There's a very basic concept that you seem to be NOT getting. Knowing and understanding salvation IS NOT THE SAME THING AS ACTUALLY HAVING IT.

And here's the difference between you and me. I believe that I have the understanding of it. And yet am not certain of my own status. You on the other hand do not understand it, as far as I can see. Yet you claim to be saved, postively.

In other words, you're hopelessly confused about the whole situation and have a burning desire to share that confusion with as many others as possible.

Salvation is simple to understand. And of course even you acknowledge that we can know that we have it. Your dichotomy between "knowing and understanding" and having is false. I don't know where you got it, but throw it back.

Dwashbur:

The gospel is not only the message of salvation. The gospel is the whole Bible from Genesis to Revelation.

Are you honestly trying to tell me that the whole Bible is very simple to understand ?

The gospel is not only the message of salvation.
No, the Gospel IS the message of salvation.

The gospel is the whole Bible from Genesis to Revelation.
The Gospel is IN the whole Bible from Genesis to Revelation.

Are you honestly trying to tell me that the whole Bible is very simple to understand ?
Did we say that?

Quoting classyT:
I know I am saved because the bible says clearly:

If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in thine heart that God raised him from the dead...THOU SHALT BE SAVED. Romans 10:9

I have confessed and I do believe and therefore I am saved!

Ephesians 1:13 says I was sealed with the Holy spirit when i believed the gospel check it out...In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.

Clearly you already believe you're saved. So why on Earth would you even care to know what I think ? Obviously from everything I've said it should be clear that your version of salvation is a complete misunderstanding of scripture.


Oh! I've read everything you have said and one of us is misunderstanding scripture.
;)

Headstrong, I gave you clear scripture of what God says concerning salvation and this is the best reply you could come up with! Come on! Really? That's all you got for me? BACK your thoughts up with solid scripture and put them into context.

God is indeed sovereign, He is holy and He is LOVE. THAT is what Gensis to revelation is about.. his LOVE. It isn't about predestination. The apostle Paul never preached that to the unbelieving world. When he spoke of predestination it was directly to the church and must be put into context.

Whosoever will may come... WHO SO EVER. Is that a lie? God is not a man that he should lie. Where is your liberty Headstong? How do you have a relationship with someone you aren't even certain hears you. I mean if you have no assurance you are a part of the predestinated crowd... what is the point?

If you had some small understanding of the love of God to us, I think you would understand why I do care what you think. I care where people spend eternity. I'm a classy, caring compassionate gal... so sue me.

Quoting classyT:
"Oh! I've read everything you have said and one of us is misunderstanding scripture."

I very much agree that God doe not lie. AS WE NORMALLY UNDERSTAND LYING. After all He is not a man.
BUT... much information HAD BEEN SEALED UP (hidden in plain sight) but not possible to understand CORRECTLY.
UNTIL NOW. For example Daniel 12:4. And much much more. That we might discuss... later, MAYBE.

Quoting classyT:
"Headstrong, I gave you clear scripture of what God says concerning salvation..."

I could also, and I have posted clear scripture concerning what God says about salvation, but someone or other always comes up with a "reason" to ignore or to deny what I've posted. One of your favorites is to claim "context." I agree that context is essential. But often the context is much greater than you will acknowledge. That is why I harp on THE WHOLE BIBLE. For example 1 Thessalonians 1:3 and 2 Thessalonians 1:11 are to me clear as crystal that FAITH IS WORK, by God's DEFINITION. GUARANTEED !!!

That means our believing (the verb form of faith) is work that we do. Hence our believing ABSOLUTELY CANNOT GET US SAVED. Again... clear as crystal... to me. Of course you are going to deny, or claim "out of context," whatever, etc. So please, is that the best YOU can do ?

FAITH IS WORK, by God's DEFINITION. GUARANTEED !!!
Yes, once we have accepted the Gospel (with the Spirit's help), it takes lots and lots of work (again, cooperation between the believer and the Spirit) to remain in faith.

Hence our believing ABSOLUTELY CANNOT GET US SAVED.
No, of course not. It's WHAT we believe (with the Spirit's help) that saves us. Doing the "work" of believing saves no one.

Quoting Wondergirl:
"It's WHAT we believe (with the Spirit's help) that saves us."

No. WHAT we believe is still work. And as such cannot even contribute to getting us saved.

One thing and one thing only gets anybody saved. That is Christ having selected them, and then having made payment for their sins. That is all. The believing that occurs in the life of such a person, after they are saved, is a RESULT of God having given that person a brand new soul.

Quoting Wondergirl:
"It's WHAT we believe (with the Spirit's help) that saves us."

No. WHAT we believe is still work. And as such cannot even contribute to getting us saved.

This is nothing but playing with words. As such, it's meaningless.

Quoting HeadStrongBoy:
"Christ having selected them, and then having made payment for their sins."

That quote is not just playing with words. It's a fact that is supported by the Bible. And it is the basis of personal salvation.

Headstrong,
The verse in Daniel 12:4 has nothing in the world to do with salvation or God lying.

Give me some verses that you use to back up your thoughts. I mean verses on predestination, Christ not dying for all of mankind only the ones he has hand picked. I want to see what it is you are basing your beliefs. Thanks.

Quoting HeadStrongBoy:
"Christ having selected them, and then having made payment for their sins."

That quote is not just playing with words. It's a fact that is supported by the Bible. And it is the basis of personal salvation.

More wordplay. You know that's not what I said was playing with words, so why don't you address what I really said?

i just got saved today and i want to start my life with the lord. are there any suggestions on how to more better my relationship?

Poor thing. Ask a simple, sincere question and end up with a debate. Not what you really wanted to hear, was it? For what it's worth... these debates help all of us become stronger in what we believe, open our minds to what others believe, and help firm up our faith.

What do you need to do to better your relationship? I'd just suggest some things that have helped me:

1. Get involved in a good church in your town or area. You'll find many real people there, not just "church people." Sometimes one of the hardest things when you're on the outside is seeing that there are any people like you in church... you'll find that there will be many people your age and many people who can help answer your tough questions. You'll start to make friends as you become involved.

2. Start working with an outreach program. Maybe with your church - sometimes even singing in a choir can help you learn more how to serve and be a blessing to others.

3. Read your Bible daily. You can go to the book of Proverbs (right in the middle of the Bible) and read one a day - there are 31 chapters. Read one chapter for the day of the week. Today is the 13th - read the 13th chapter.

4. Pray. Praying isn't really about words, but about talking to God. It's telling Him all the things that you are feeling, asking Him for help through problems, finding out ways that you can show Him that you're thankful for what He did for you.

5. Get some good Christian music or find a christian radio station. I have mine on when I'm in the car. Sometimes its not just for the "i've got music on" but more for the message of the words.

6. Ask questions. Keep coming here and asking questions. People will give you their honest opinions and tell you what helped them.

Take care, dear! And Happy Spiritual Birthday! :)

Quoting dwashbur:
"More wordplay. You know that's not what I said was playing with words, so why don't you address what I really said?"

From my perspective you look exactly the same way to me.

Quoting dwashbur:
"More wordplay. You know that's not what I said was playing with words, so why don't you address what I really said?"

From my perspective you look exactly the same way to me.

Are you for real? Let's recap.

You said:

"No. WHAT we believe is still work. And as such cannot even contribute to getting us saved."

I responded:

"This is nothing but playing with words. As such, it's meaningless. "

Rather than respond to my words regarding this statement:

"No. WHAT we believe is still work. And as such cannot even contribute to getting us saved."

You replied this way:

"Quoting HeadStrongBoy:
"Christ having selected them, and then having made payment for their sins."

That quote is not just playing with words."

But the quote about "Christ having selected them" was NOT what I said was playing with words. I said this was playing with words:

"No. WHAT we believe is still work. And as such cannot even contribute to getting us saved."

And I was very clear about it.

So you are still dodging the real issue. If you don't have an answer, just admit it. Stop playing evasion games, because everybody can see through them.

Quoting dwashbur:
Quoting HeadStrongBoy: "No. WHAT we believe is still work. And as such cannot even contribute to getting us saved."

That statement also is not playing with words, though you may perceive it that way. It was part of a thread that needs to be followed IN CONTEXT. Clearly you have taken it out of context.

Quoting dwashbur:
Quoting HeadStrongBoy: "No. WHAT we believe is still work. And as such cannot even contribute to getting us saved."
"By grace are you saved through faith. It is the gift of God, not works, lest any man should boast." Eph. 2:8,9

You can't get it any clearer.

And with that we will end this discussion.

We basically stole the thread from the OP, ** I am so sorry I missed it happening myself***

To the OP I am glad you found the Lord and good luck in the journey