Germany is prepared to admit what we all know. Multiculturism just doesn't work.
Multiculturalism in Germany has failed, says Chancellor (http://www.smh.com.au/world/multiculturalism-in-germany-has-failed-says-chancellor-20101017-16p7h.html)

WOW. That's about all I can say at this time.

WOW. Thats about all I can say at this time.

Yes where will the left go now?

The Germans and the Turks have had a long standing relationship. But too far is too far and I guess the system has reached a breaking point from within. The left doesn't have any place to go except out. Its something that we may see in the U.S. if the banking and money systems get stressed enough. And it also mirror the complaints of illegals coming here too. Its far too taxing on the social system.

The Germans and the Turks have had a long standing relationship. But too far is too far and I guess the system has reached a breaking point from within. The left doesnt have any place to go except out. Its something that we may see in the U.S. if the banking and money systems get stressed enough. And it also mirror the complaints of illegals coming here too. Its far too taxing on the social system.

How stressed to too stressed? The US is already printing money for the second time and has zero interest rates, the rot is spreading again to other countries and it has little to do with economic migration. I think the point made here is that integration is key to migration, Germany has learned what we learned long ago, selective migration is a good thing and opening the flood gates is not. I have said it many times we have more than enough camel (taxi)drivers, but doctors, engineers, competent people, are in short supply

I have said it many times we have more than enough camel (taxi)drivers, but doctors, engineers, competent people, are in short supplyHello clete:

I agree. Competent people are in short supply in your land...

excon

Hello clete:

I agree. Competent people are in short supply in your land....

excon

Not only here, ex, I have observed the phenomenon is apparent in many places, but mostly where money is worshipped.

I guess Politcal Correctness is officially dead in Germany. Finally... someone has the balls to state the obvious.

Paraclete, if a multicultural society can't succeed as the article suggests, does this mean New York City has merely been an anomaly for the last hundred or so years?

I think forced multiculturalism in any country will always backfire. Doing so during a time of unparalleled economical unrest is the height in poor judgment.

Paraclete, if a multicultural society can't succeed as the article suggests, does this mean New York City has merely been an anomaly for the last hundred or so years?

I think forced multiculturalism in any country will always backfire. Doing so during a time of unparalleled economical unrest is the height in poor judgment.

You are missing an important aspect here. ASSIMILATION. Most Muslims refuse to assimilate into the cultures they move to. UNLIKE the majority of those in the past, like the USA and Australia for two examples.

They became PART of the American and Australian culture... not maintaining a separate culture of their own they refused to let go of. THAT is the difference.

I am not missing anything here Smoothy.

Assimilation occurs over generations. We cannot expect people to simply come together without any issues or problems. There are always going to be problems when people of many different backgrounds are forced to co-exist. If you look at U.S. history, it wasn't easy for any of the immigrants (Irish, Chinese, Germans, Jews,. ) when they first came over here to live. They all faced discrimination and persecution of varying degrees. But, over time they have managed either to fully assimilate (and lose touch with their roots) or find a way to interweave their own ethnic & religious beliefs into their daily lives here.

So, time is the critical element that is missing from that study.

BTW, I am surprised no one has yet mentioned anything regarding another part of the study. Of all the people surveyed, "more than one in 10 called for a 'fuehrer' to run the country 'with a strong hand'.'' With that attitude I don't wonder why the study failed.

I think multiculturalism can succeed .It is tougher in a homogenious society like Germany . The United States is an example where it has largely succeeded .

However... Smoothy is correct in pointing out that the melting pot is a 2 way street .It does require assimilation .

Do you think they will arrest Merkel and try her for hate speech like they are doing to Dutch MP Geert Wilders ?

You are missing an important aspect here. ASSIMILATION. Most Muslims refuse to assimilate into the cultures they move to. UNLIKE the majority of those in the past, like the USA and Australia for two examples.

They became PART of the American and Australian culture....not maintaining a separate culture of their own they refused to let go of. THAT is the difference.

Can't speak for america but in Australia early waves of migrants assimulated but recent ones have not and in the 70's there was a big push for multuculturism with efforts to allow immigration without assimilation, this has backfired with pockets of various cultures and it led to violence with Muslims a few years ago and a problem with indians today.

As Smoothy said the problem is Muslims don't assimulate

Paraclete, I can't generalize the way you and Smoothy do because my experience is different from yours. The handful of Muslims I know well are either 2nd or 3rd generation and have assimilated, were born in the U.S. but converted to Islam, interacting with non-Muslims on a daily basis without incident, or came from another country, went to college/university here and stayed after marrying a Christian and although never converted to Christianity themselves, the children were raised Christian. All of those are cases of Muslims successfully assimilating In my opinion.

I'll speak from experience ,living in NY . It is hard to tell the difference between the Italian owned pizzaria and the Bosnian owned pizzaria... or the Jewish and Muslim owned bagel shops. From my experience most Muslims here have assimilated nicely .

But the cavet is the word most . There is a substantial population that hasn't or won't. It is also a fact that it is less likely that the Muslim populations in Europe will adopt the culture of their adopted homes. But in the case of
Europe ,I find little evidence that the people of the continent are inclinded to defend their culture and history. They are more likely to be assimilated into the greater ummah as dimmis .

I'll speak from experience ,living in NY . It is hard to tell the difference between the Italian owned pizzaria and the Bosnian owned pizzaria....or the Jewish and Muslim owned bagel shops. From my experience most Muslims here have assimilated nicely .

But the cavet is the word most . There is a substantial population that hasn't or won't. It is also a fact that it is less likely that the Muslim populations in Europe will adopt the culture of their adopted homes. But in the case of
Europe ,I find little evidence that the people of the continent are inclined to defend their culture and history. They are more likely to be assimilated into the greater ummah as dimmis .

Tom I can't speak of the same experience, we have whole suburbs in major cities where an english sign is not in sight and the streets are peopled by people in strange garb, hard to tell the difference from down town Kabul. The Jews who came here assimulated, so did the Serbs, but the Muslims will even shoot up the local police station
Lakemba?s terrorist connections: The ?axis of evil? in Australia (http://www.ci-ce-ct.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&catid=1:9-11&id=20:lakembas-terrorist-connections-the-axis-of-evil-in-australia&Itemid=3)

But the cavet is the word most . There is a substantial population that hasn't or won't.
Maybe it depends on where you live?
I haven't seen anything that I would consider a substantial population of Muslims that haven't or won't assimilate in the U.S. The closest thing to that I am aware of is the Eastern Indian population in Jersey City but I don't know if the majority are Muslim or Hindu. Although they have taken over a large area, I am not aware of any social problems/clashes. They appear to have become just another subculture of the U.S. much in the same way Chinatown in NY & San Francisco are.



It is also a fact that it is less likely that the Muslim populations in Europe will adopt the culture of their adopted homes. But in the case of Europe ,I find little evidence that the people of the continent are inclinded to defend their culture and history. They are more likely to be assimilated into the greater ummah as dimmis .

According to that article as I pointed out earlier, "more than one in 10 called for a 'fuehrer' to run the country 'with a strong hand'.'' Although it may not be a majority of the German population, history has taught us that all it takes is a handful of people and general economic unrest to change the world they live in. If you look at what is going on in France regarding the Muslim community, they definitely are defending their culture.

In any event, per an article written by Timothy Savage in the Washington Quarterly 6 years ago, the European nations are fast approaching the tipping point regarding the clash of cultures. http://www.twq.com/04summer/docs/04summer_savage.pdf

======
Paraclete, I thought Australia, Canada, & the U.S. have a history of being much more culturally diverse nations than any other countries in the world. To my knowledge, Canada & the U.S. have not experienced such localized/focused violence (shooting up of local police stations) from Muslim immigrants. Why do you think Australia is experiencing this?

I haven't seen anything that I would consider a substantial population of Muslims that haven't or won't assimilate in the U.S.

Just as there are Christian ,Amish ,Orthodox Jewish(or the Jersey City Indian population you speak of ) enclaves throughout the nation ;there are also Islamic enclaves. Here in upstate NY we have a village called 'Islamberg'. It is an exclusive community of Muslims founded by a Pakistani cleric .It is a community of mixed immgrant and converts.
Holy Islamville is a Muslim village in South Carolina ;Aliville is one in Georgia.

There is another one in Gwynn Oaks section of Baltimore. There is also a growing one in Little Rock Ak.

We are late to the game . In many European cities there are areas of 'no go zones' where local authorities dare not go. For all intents ,civil law has been replaced by Sharia in these areas.

I am not missing anything here Smoothy.

Assimilation occurs over generations. We cannot expect people to simply come together without any issues or problems. There are always going to be problems when people of many different backgrounds are forced to co-exist. If you look at U.S. history, it wasn't easy for any of the immigrants (Irish, Chinese, Germans, Jews,...) when they first came over here to live. They all faced discrimination and persecution of varying degrees. But, over time they have managed either to fully assimilate (and lose touch with their roots) or find a way to interweave their own ethnic & religious beliefs into their daily lives here.

So, time is the critical element that is missing from that study.

BTW, I am surprised no one has yet mentioned anything regarding another part of the study. Of all the people surveyed, "more than one in 10 called for a 'fuehrer' to run the country 'with a strong hand'.'' With that attitude I don't wonder why the study failed.

The word Führer is a "leader" or "guide" so really the chancellor is the same thing at the moment but under a different name because of who is most commonly associated with that title, but basically what I think is meant by that is that they want a more decicive and stronger will'ed leader and not a purge on other races as seems to be implied by the media in this statement.

I agree that integration is a key part to make multiculturalism work, especially learning the native language. How to go about enforcing this with comunities in society that have chosen to be distant from the people who's country they live in is a tough one, as is getting the laws in place to help future immigrants to their respective countries integrate.

======
Paraclete, I thought Australia, Canada, & the U.S. have a history of being much more culturally diverse nations than any other countries in the world. To my knowledge, Canada & the U.S. have not experienced such localized/focused violence (shooting up of local police stations) from Muslim immigrants. Why do you think Australia is experiencing this?

I think it is because Muslim immigration has reached a critical mass here where there are sufficient numbers for them to take over large sections of a city and be well established. We didn't start to see large mosques established until about twenty years ago after multiculturism had been established as a government policy. This sent a message that there was no need to assimulate into the broader Australian culture. There are now serious issues over the establishment of muslim schools in areas where a muslim community is not established. There is a pattern to the manner in which they establish themselves in an area. We have also accepted refugee populations from places like the Lebenon, Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia and perhaps there is a good percentage of troubled people or those with criminal tendencies among them. Many of our more serious police cases of recent years have involved people from the Muslim community. Our policies handling illegal immigrants may push the boundries where mental health is concerned. Muslims are about 2% of the population, and so are a significant sub-culture. There are more Buddhists in Australia than Muslims and yet they don't contribute to social problems

Paraclete thanks for your feedback. As the violence increases in Aussie, please post the news stories. I am very interested.

Tom, I am aware of the enclaves but I thought they are small communities and nowhere near the size and scope of the Amish, the Menonites, the Orthodox Jews in places like Kiryas Joel, NY, and other religious groups that have been living in separate communities in this country. I was under the impression, like those other groups, these Muslim enclaves are self-contained. I haven't heard about any violence or clashes with their neighboring towns. Have there been problems? If so, can you link an article for me to read? Or, are you saying you believe these enclaves are now growing larger and in time we will see the kind of gang violence as these other countries are experiencing?

Albear, thanks for your input. I twitch when I read the word Fuhrer but I understand what you are saying.

Paraclete thanks for your feedback. As the violence increases in Aussie, please post the news stories. I am very interested.

.

Here is a further perspective, this article refers to smaller populations not seeing problems but that is too much a generalisation because these people collect in enclaves so that the proportion of the population in that area grows rapidly and so do the social problems. The reason that the USA and Canada don't see the problems is Muslims are a very small population in those places.
Limit Muslim migration, Australia warned - National - smh.com.au (http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/limit-muslim-migration-australia-warned/2007/02/15/1171405374552.html)
2% of a national population might translate to 5-10% population in a large city. Here we see much of western Sydney (the largest city in Australia) with a predominant Muslim population and crime in those places is endemic

TY Paraclete. You are right. We have one of the smaller populations of Muslims in the world. That article was a very interesting read. The Professor makes a lot of sense. I do wonder (and worry) whether we have set into place enough safeguards to ensure we can properly weed out and separate those people who are intent on violence and the ones who are truly interested in trying to improve their lot in life.

Yes ,without assimilation you have a growing 5th column.

Yes ,without assimilation you have a growing 5th column.

Yes I have been saying for years they represent a fifth column

Assimilation reminds me of the Borg in the Star Trek series, Integration, as in peaceful tolerance, and co existence makes for a better picture in my mind, because why would I assimilate to something I don't know, understand, and not raised with? Too much like do it my way, or hit the highway.

I think in time we integrate and do our own things, peacefully of course.

Assimilation reminds me of the Borg in the Star Trek series, Integration, as in peaceful tolerance, and co existence makes for a better picture in my mind, because why would I assimilate to something I don't know, understand, and not raised with? Too much like do it my way, or hit the highway.

I think in time we integrate and do our own things, peacefully of course.

That's a wrong view, assimulation is becoming part of the society you find yourself in. It is a principle as old as time i.e. when in Rome do as the romans do, an old maxim. Why do people go to another country? It is usually because if offers them opportunities not found in their own. Why then should they not become part of that society, speaking the language, engaging in cultural activities? Why is there a need for them to stand out, basically saying I am here and you should adopt my ways. No, it wasn't their ways that made our society desirable for them. So yes, I say if you come here and you don't like what you find, don't be unhappy, leave

The Borg comparison falls on it's face because the Borg were the invaders.

Why is there a need for them to stand out, basicly saying I am here and you should adopt my ways.Hello again, c:

No wonder you have a touch of the racist in you, if you believe that claptrap...

Maybe instead of standing out, they're just wearing the clothes, and eating the food, and speaking the language they ALWAYS did. Maybe they just don't want to learn another way. Aren't they FREE to do that?? Why do they have to do what YOU want them to do?

excon

I think in time we integrate and do our own things, peacefully of course.

This was the point I was making earlier. Time.

Clete I understand what you are saying. I can only explain it through what I know of one of my relatives experiences. My great-grandmother came to this country as a widow with three young girls. It still amazes me she took a blind leap of faith without knowing the language or what fate was waiting for her. But, she did so to give her daughters a better life than they were living. She managed to find her way from the East coast (Ellis Island) to a community of people with her background 1200 miles away in the Midwest. According to my father, she never did learn the language or change her customs. My grandmother and her sisters did assimilate to what I consider a major degree. As adults they dressed as most Americans did at the time, spoke English, and interacted with the general population. However, they did speak their native language among their own kind, kept up with certain foods & customs, and their closest friendships were with people of the same background. All three girls married men who were born here but came from similar backgrounds. My father was fully Americanized.

There is no way to completely shelter the majority of the children of immigrants from the rest of society around them. Especially as we have entered such a globalization of communications.

It appears to me what is happening in Australia, France, U.K. Germany,. is the emigration of another culture en masse that happened to the United States (with many cultures) well over a century ago as I believe I stated earlier. The majority of the people who establish roots in another country do so with the expectations they will change their lot in life and be able to give their children a better life than they had in their country of origin. The main problem comes in the ability to weed out & control the ones with only violent intentions. New York City had a major struggle with crime among immigrants back in the mid-19th to early 20th century. The difference today lies with a handful of people who are intent on bringing down western countries from within and who have access too much more damaging arsenals than ever before.

Hello again, c:

No wonder you have a touch of the racist in you, if you believe that claptrap....

Maybe instead of standing out, they're just wearing the clothes, and eating the food, and speaking the language they ALWAYS did. Maybe they just don't wanna learn another way. Aren't they FREE to do that??? Why do they have to do what YOU want them to do?

excon

Why, because in case you haven't noticed, this place belongs to me, not to them.

You don't get it, they can do all that without moving, but if they want what I have there is a cost, nothing is for free. You guys have been eating a free lunch for so long you actually think that's the way things work and you have misled the world into thinking the same way. When someone speaks to me here I actually expect that I can understand what they say, is that an unreasonable expectation? When we say no assault weapons allowed, we actually mean it, it isn't optional. When we go to a beach we don't expect middle eastern yoboos telling us how we should dress. When I pass through a suburb I actually expect to be able to read the signs. When we say if you want to come here you have to stand in line, you have to have some skills, what part of that isn't easy to understand?

Why, because in case you haven't noticed, this place belongs to me, not to them.Are you an aboriginal Australian?

Why, because in case you haven't noticed, this place belongs to me, not to them.

...what part of that isn't easy to understand?Hello again, clete:

Oh, I UNDERSTAND racism. You gave a good description of it, too. I'm sure OUR very own racists believe the land they walk on BELONGS to them too... Personally, I don't share that belief.. In fact, when people arrive on our shores, they own this country just like I do. Indeed, they're FREE to dress and speak ANY way they want to... That's what FREEDOM is. How come you don't know that??

excon

PS> By the way, I thought the land belonged to the Aboriginese. How come you don't dress like them??

The difference today lies with a handful of people who are intent on bringing down western countries from within and who have access too much more damaging arsenals than ever before.
Indeed !

Merkel simply argued that government policy should seek to incorporate immigrants by teaching them how to speak German and by integrating them into society and the workforce .
The reason she did that was because immigrants, especially Muslims, reject the fundamental values of the country to which they have moved.
What she was saying is that "multiculturalism " is an obstacle to that goal .

We've gone a long way in the wrong direction since the West rose up to defend Salman Rushdie .Now the intimidation is so strong that Juan Williams can be fired for expressing his feelings.

Why, because in case you haven't noticed, this place belongs to me, not to them.

The points made by others about the aborigines are valid ones.

Everything you have stated in that last post is very much in line with the attitude the transplanted cultures in the U.S. had to deal with throughout our history. I think about the lynchings of African Americans, the terrible abuse of the Native Americans, Chinese, Japanese, Irish, Jews,. and wonder how much violence could have been averted if prejudice didn't get in the way of tolerance, acceptance, and common sense.

I am left wondering if people whose attitudes mirror yours aren't themselves creating a fertile breeding ground within the Muslim community for the likes of Al Qaeda to infiltrate. If you believe in the adage "history repeats itself," backlashes of violence from a community that has been pushed too far is an inevitability.

"When in Rome...do as the Romans do....."

If you don't like the culture of the place you move to... or want to accept it and become part of it... then go back to your own country.

All countries should have a ONE Language law... Move to germany... everything gets handled in German only... move to Australia it get handled in English only... all signs etc should be posted in that language alone. With sole exceptions being obvious tourist spots.

History has shown us that forced assimilation has never worked, but a slow generational transition has worked very well, and would work even better if the impediments were removed.

Native intolerance, and fear of the new guy changing them, and the system they have gotten use to, has put many a road block to people who are trying to acclimate themselves. Especially the its mine and your not welcome, unless you do as your told attitude that others have pointed out, and you only have to examine Europe (France and Germany) and the problems they are having to see examples of how their policies, and practices actually make immigrants more difficult to mesh with the system.

Oddly, it's their migrated off shoots who may be the best example of what works the best, mainly our northern neighbors the Canadians.

Lets face it, we could all be more patient, more tolerant, more open to the plight of an immigrant who wants peace without being stripped of the humanity he has grown with all his life.

I mean how long did it take all our families to embrace a new unfamiliar country, and culture. Look through your own history, and decide as we are all still getting into the mainstream, and none of IS the mainstream. All of us are but parts to a whole. Why look down at another part if your no better, only in your own mind.

Are you an aboriginal australian?

My family came here as free settlers in 1822, there are a few dotted lines in my linage who knows what they refer to, but there are enough generations under my belt to have the same feelings about new comers as the aboriginals which basically is don't assimulate us into your ways but come, walk with us

Hello again, clete:

Oh, I UNDERSTAND racism. You gave a good description of it, too. I'm sure OUR very own racists believe the land they walk on BELONGS to them too.... Personally, I don't share that belief.. In fact, when people arrive on our shores, they own this country just like I do. Indeed, they're FREE to dress and speak ANY way they want to... That's what FREEDOM is. How come you don't know that???

excon

PS> By the way, I thought the land belonged to the Aboriginese. How come you don't dress like them????

The land hasn't belonged to the aboriginees for a very long time ex, excepting in those parts where native title is recognised, The aboriginal australians dress in exactly the same way as I do, you cannot tell us apart by our dress, or our speech or our church. Our society doesn't allow me to dress as the aboriginees once did, with the occasional paint job thrown in for cerimonal occasions. The aboriginee today doesn't wander the land naked so not even the aboriginees dress as they once did. Don't lecture me on freedom ask your own original nations how free they feel and how much of their land they possess, do they wander your land dressed as they once did?

You have some very odd ideas about freedom, total freedom to do anything is anarchy. No society in the world lives that way

In a break from the election day punditry, apparently Bill Maher has a little "common sense" after all. He pulled a Juan Williams (http://www.mediaite.com/tv/bill-maher-afraid-mohammeds-islam-taking-over-western-world/) and fretted openly over Mohammed becoming the most popular baby name in Britain.


“Am I a racist to feel alarmed by that?” Maher asked his panel. “Because I am. And it’s not because of the race, it’s because of the religion. I don’t have to apologize, do I, for not wanting the Western world to be taken over by Islam in 300 years?”

His normally boisterous crowd fell silent as the panel responded to Maher’s admission.

“If you’re with NPR,” the conservative Margaret Hoover chimed, “You’d be fired.”

“It’s worse,” Lawrence O’Donnell told Maher. “It’s way worse than what Juan Williams said.” Hoover seemed to agree with this sentiment.

Reihan Salam, a conservative analyst with a Muslim name, also seemed irked by Maher’s comments, noting that he “has some uncles named Mohammed” that are “pretty decent guys.”

Of course, it’s not the name that Maher fears, but the religion. (Any of them, in fact — Maher’s qualms with religion of any sort, Islam or not, are long-standing and well-documented.) Hoover further stoked Maher by claiming that the U.K is saddled with a “far bigger problem” than baby names: Sharia law, which she said is creeping into England.

“Then I’m right,” Maher said, taking her for her word. “I should be alarmed. And I don’t apologize for it.”

Wow, who knew? I'm wondering when this is going to blow up on the leftist blogs over what an intolerant bigot Maher is as happened to Williams.

I like Margaret Hoover . She is the great grand daughter of Herbert Hoover and makes very sound arguments in debate. She like Carville -Matlin must have some pretty intense dinner discussions . She is married to self proclaimed "centrist" John Avalon of the Daily Beast ,author of "Wingnuts".

Nothing will happen to Maher .The NPR reaction had more to do with Williams saying what he said on FOX ,and not what he said.

In a break from the election day punditry, apparently Bill Maher has a little "common sense" after all. He pulled a Juan Williams (http://www.mediaite.com/tv/bill-maher-afraid-mohammeds-islam-taking-over-western-world/) and fretted openly over Mohammed becoming the most popular baby name in Britain.



Wow, who knew? I'm wondering when this is going to blow up on the leftist blogs over what an intolerant bigot Maher is as happened to Williams.

I'm not going to hold my breath waiting... Liberals don't believe in following the rules they force upon others.