Hello

I think I just need to vent a bit. Hope you don't mind… it’s a bit long.

My son started going out with the girl next door a few years ago. After a couple of years the girl fell pregnant and my son moved in with the family next door (who we've never had particularly good relations with because they're a bit odd... one time I came home from work to find the father hacking down 20 feet of my front hedge so he could drive across my driveway into his front garden, stuff like that, but I've always tried to keep it civil). Beautiful granddaughter was born, but I wasn't allowed to see her for the first year of her life because the girlfriend wouldn't allow it, we were never told why... my son would literally pass the baby over the fence for me to see when the girlfriend wasn't looking. It almost broke my heart.

Went round to see the Mother one time to try and talk to them about not being able to see my own grandchild. The girlfriend immediately stormed out of the house, and the Mother said that the girlfriend didn't want my son to move with her into a flat when they got one, which I thought was a bit of a strange thing to say, especially since nothing had been mentioned to my son.

They eventually got a flat of their own and my son did it all up, wallpapering and having carpet fitted everywhere. Then the girlfriend, who was always rather fond of 'going out boozing' in nightclubs, asked my son to move out so she could have a better time. He did this and, after all the problems he'd been having with her, wasn’t devastated. He came to live with us again. He was 24 and we thought we'd help him out until he was on his feet again.

The girlfriend then discovered that, without my son living with her, she had no babysitters when she went out at night, so she started leaving the child with him/us. My son would collect the child for a visit three or four times a week, and when he went to take her back the girlfriend would simply not be there. Several times the girlfriend texted 'You're having her for the weekend' or 'I've gone away for the weekend'. We were always pleased to have granddaughter stay here, but we never knew whether she was coming or going.

Things got worse when the girlfriend wanted my son back, apparently, and he told her there was no chance. There then began such a stream of vitriol from this girlfriend that my husband and I were often left gobsmacked – furious text messages demanding that my son have the child here, there and everywhere, awful phonecalls to him, just a constant stream of abuse. My son became more and more frustrated.

It eventually came to a head in January of this year. My husband, with some considerable effort, got them both together in our house and forced them to make a proper rota for the child. Girlfriend wanted my son to have the child three times a week and every weekend (“I have the child ALL WEEK” she cried, “Yes,” I told her, “That’s what being a mother is all about”). She reluctantly agreed to one overnight stay in the week and every other weekend, Fri night to Sunday night, or Saturday all day. We had to try really hard to get her to stick to this, texting her the rota over and over again (she kept insisting that ‘this weekend’ was her ‘full weekend’, every single week).

A couple of weeks ago she deliberately wasn’t at the flat on Wednesday when my son went to collect his daughter. He collected her on Saturday as normal, and then received a text from the girlfriend to say that, because he didn’t have the child on Wednesday night, he was having her for the whole weekend. This wasn’t actually convenient for anyone – my son had planned to go camping with his friends (he is, after all, allowed to have a life too) and my other son and his mate were coming to stay at my house. I tried ringing the girlfriend at least 40 times, dialing the number over and over again, and sent a text to say granddaughter couldn’t stay that night, but no reply. Then the girlfriend’s mother gleefully rang my son to say he ‘owed the girlfriend a night, and he hadn’t given girlfriend her ‘maintenance money’ fast enough on Friday night’ (he’d been counting his wages and kept her waiting a full three minutes… sometimes she comes to the door and snatches it off him, jumps into a taxi and goes clubbing with the money he’s given her).

My other son had to stay elsewhere for the night as there was no room for him here. I sent my son (the father) off camping, and we looked after granddaughter. The next day, Sunday, we hadn’t heard anything from the girlfriend and had no idea when she might show up (usually not until late), so we went shopping and had Sunday dinner out. When we were coming home, my son forwarded a text that girlfriend had sent to him saying the police were looking for his and our car because we’d kidnapped the child. We could hardly believe it.

Got home, and the girlfriend came storming round from her mother’s house next door bawling ‘I want my daughter! I want my daughter!’ I was furious and did shout at her, then she lunged at me and my husband quickly removed her from the house. She then called the police and her family to say that my kind, gentle husband had assaulted her! The family came round and screamed on our doorstep, and then the police came and broke it up, cautioned them but not us. We handed granddaughter (who we’d kept away from all this madness at the back of the house) back to her mother as the family continued to shriek abuse. It was awful.

I was so traumatised by this I had to go to the doctors for drugs to calm me down, not least because I’d had to ask my son to leave… he couldn’t possibly live next door to all this insanity - the girlfriend likes to parade his child in the garden next door, taunting him. He found a nice flat and got away.

But we’re still here. The girlfriend regularly brings my granddaughter to her mother’s house next door and walks right in front of our house with her, smiling, and in the back garden, where we can hear her (but can’t ‘see’ her). Its like a nightmare. I can’t believe this spiteful girl has brought about all this misery. She still sends my son texts saying that his daughter has a ‘new stepfather’ who is better than him (my son has always been an exceptional father) and that if he doesn’t have her this weekend for the whole weekend he will never see her again.

My husband and I, for the sake of our sanity, can’t involve ourselves in this any more, the girlfriend is too out of control and we don’t know how to handle this kind of madness. But its hard when our granddaughter, who we love very much and is such a beautiful child, is paraded in front of us (girlfriend snatches her away, smiling, if we wave or say hello to the little girl). I have very violent thoughts about her.

Has anyone else ever been through something like this, or has some non-violent advice to offer? I’d be most grateful. I’m still reeling and feel very confused and upset (although no longer on the drugs). We don’t know what to do for the best.

P.S. I should mention that my son works full time, and that the girlfriend has a brother who loves the child as much as we do and I know he'll keep an eye on her.

Where are you? Some States have Grandparent rights - limited and difficult to "get," but they do exist.

Where are you? Some States have Grandparent rights - limited and difficult to "get," but they do exist.

I'm in England. I don't know anything about grandparents rights, but it's a good idea, I will look into it. Thank you.

Judy, I haven't finished reading this (I am a bit slow and deliberate) but from the wording it shounds as if she is in the UK

Oops. Like I said, slooowww. Still reading. :)

Your in a very difficult position,but there is not much you can do,but there is something your son can do.

Go to court,set up visitation and maintence.

Go through the courts.

As for your neighbours,its sounds dreadful to have to live next door and not be allowed contact,the best I can offer you is not to become embroiled in any arguments.

Your granddaughter will get older and one day will be able to make her own choices,of who and when she visits.

Hopefully another poster will be able to offer you a more comprehensive answer.

Virago, is there a legal custody & child support order in place or are the arrangements, money & visitation something that was worked out between the two of them.
Not sure if this applies in the UK but I will give it a shot. If this is just a casual arrangement, my suggestion is for your son to take her to court, request JOINT custody. He won't be responsible for paying her A FREAKING DIME if he can get Joint Custody order from the courts. Find a barrister who is known for being a cutthroat in these situations so your son can get exactly what he wants and you can see your granddaughter on a regular basis without having to be at the mercy of her Mother.

Redhed, have to spread it but you are right on target (and quicker on the draw than I am)!

Thank you. Visitation and maintenance money were 'agreed' between them, but you're right, it has to be sorted through the courts now, something we had hoped to avoid due to cost, but there's no other choice now.

Why did your son not take his daughter half time as was originally offered?

Also, given that he had his daughter only every other weekend, why did he and his ex have an arrangement that he took his daughter either just Saturday or else Friday through Sunday? Who was to decide week to week which it was? Your son? The lack of a definite schedule seemed bound to lead to confusion.

There's a lot I don't understand in this story.

Why did your son not take his daughter half time as was originally offered?

Also, given that he had his daughter only every other weekend, why did he and his ex have an arrangement that he took his daughter either just Saturday or else Friday through Sunday? Who was to decide week to week which it was? Your son? The lack of a definite schedule seemed bound to lead to confusion.

There's a lot I don't understand in this story.

My son works full time, 9am-6pm, Mon to Sat. The girlfriend doesn't work. That's why he couldn't take her half the time.

It was my husband and I who sat them both down to thrash out an arrangement as the girlfriend dictated it before on an ad hoc basis. We thought getting them both to agree to a rota would help. The arrangement she agreed to was one overnight during the week, then either Saturday all day (week 1) or Fri night to Sunday night (week 2) every other weekend. This was less confusing than the girlfriend simply leaving the child here and disappearing, only coming to collect her when she felt like it.

Which bits were unclear?

Thank you. Visitation and maintenance money were 'agreed' between them, but you're right, it has to be sorted through the courts now, something we had hoped to avoid due to cost, but there's no other choice now.

A formal arrangement with signed agreements is a much better option in most situations like this. You needn't go to court to negotiate a contract. A mediator can help you make an agreement that is acceptable to both sides.

To me, from your own account, it sounds as if you bullied the mother into this particular agreement, which was informal in any case, and then she resented it and resisted it. Likewise, I have a hard time accepting that your son has been perfectly innocent in all this. Among other things, as you pointed out, parenthood is about taking responsibility, which means he should watch his own daughter, not turn her over to someone else whenever he doesn't feel like being a parent. I think there's room for improvement on both sides. It seems to me that this little girl needs some consistency in her life and a reliable father. If your son has her every other weekend, there's no excuse for his planning a camping trip that weekend.

To me, from your own account, it sounds as if you bullied the mother into this particular agreement, which was informal in any case, and then she resented it and resisted it. Likewise, I have a hard time accepting that your son has been perfectly innocent in all this. Among other things, as you pointed out, parenthood is about taking responsibility, which means he should watch his own daughter, not turn her over to someone else whenever he doesn't feel like being a parent. I think there's room for improvement on both sides. It seems to me that this little girl needs some consistency in her life and a reliable father. If your son has her every other weekend, there's no excuse for his planning a camping trip that weekend.

Bullied? No, the girlfriend's brother was here too. We're reasonable people who just wanted to help, there was no bullying involved, we let them talk through lots of options and that's what she agreed to.

My son is an excellent father. He didn't 'turn her over' to anyone else, he'd arranged to go camping with friends after he'd taken his daughter back that Saturday, as arranged - he's allowed to have some fun too. It was me who told him to go... as a grandmother it was a bit of a treat to have her all to myself for once.

"asking agrees : The girlfriend cannot work if she has the child full time."

Granddaughter is at nursery school four times a week, 9am-3pm.

Honestly, I think you are in this far too deep. I realize it's your grandchild; I realize this is upsetting. You have to stop making accusations about the child's mother - you don't like her, she doesn't like you, that's a given. Unfortunately this is between her and your son. I know it's difficult but you have to step back.

The mother has custody - the mother gets to make these decisions right now.

Doesn't your son have a voice in this?

The fact remains that he doesn't take his daughter enough to be of any practical value to the mother. It doesn't surprise me that she is angry.

As far as the child support, given that your son works full time and the mother cannot work because of mothering duties, it's appropriate that he help support his daughter. A LOT of conflict would be avoided if your son would write a check and mail it to his daughter's mother on the same day every month so that she can depend on it, instead of putting her in the position of having to come and get cash from him in person. Further, making her wait while he slowly counts it out is clearly intended to humiliate and annoy her. I don't see any reason why you should be surprised that he succeeds.

It seems to me you are approving and enabling irresponsible behavior by your son and promoting conflict between him and his ex girlfriend. I think if he begins to behave better, if you have a legal custody and child support agreement, and (importantly) if you make an effort to treat and speak of and to your granddaughter's mother and family with MUCH greater respect, things will improve and the seeing of your granddaughter will become a non issue.

EDit: Did not see the post about nursery school until now. Who pays for that?

Honestly, I think you are in this far too deep. I realize it's your grandchild; I realize this is upsetting. You have to stop making accusations about the child's mother - you don't like her, she doesn't like you, that's a given. Unfortunately this is between her and your son. I know it's difficult but you have to step back.

The mother has custody - the mother gets to make these decisions right now.

Doesn't your son have a voice in this?

I didn't realise stepping in when two parents are squabbling over a child of the familiy was going in 'too deep'. We don't normally interfere, we just advise when asked. As for accusations about the mother, I simply said it as it was - she goes out four times a week and staggers back drunk... not an accusation, I've seen her fall down her mother's path next door several times late at night (when she's woken us with the noise). Maybe I didn't put that across well enough. We're not evil parents who've taken control and spew vile at a poor, unfortunate girl, we've always been very civil despite what she's done.

Yes, my son has a voice, but I can't speak for him here, only myself. He was at the end of his tether with her when he asked us for help. You seem to think this was the wrong thing to do!

I think he has to learn to stand up for himself - you are being pitted against the mother whether it's with your consent/knowledge. And, yes, stepping in when you have no legal right to do so when "squabbling" over a child is getting in too deep. I'd be next door doing everything I could to see that child, including eating grass and apologizing for THEIR bad behavior. You are excusing and enabling your son. He left the grandchild with you as a "treat" for you? This is a child, not a puppy.

HE needs to step in, present proof and get a change in custody.

When the Police are called by either party I don't see anyone being "civil." Anyone ever turn around and walk away so the child isn't subjected to this bad behavior?

And, again, your son needs to grow a pair - sorry to be so blunt but that's how I see it. He's at the end of his tether when all he has to do to resolve this is to walk into a Courtroom? Hope nobody important to him ever dies - he'll NEVER handle that.

And the other thing that no one EVER wants to hear is - was this girl a drunk, unstable, vindictive, semi-crazy (all or any of the above) when your son was having either unprotected or inadequately protected sex with her?

Wow. I guess I have missed a lot here. "Asking", I think the idea of mediation is a very good one and a less costly alternative if the son & his ex are willing to sit down together to hammer out an agreement.

In today's society, the majority of couples are forced to work to make ends meet. The ones who are still together, whether married or living together, work FT and manage to work out their daycare arrangements, whether with family, friends, a private facility, or a public one. So, I don't see why when any couple splits up, they can't work together to do the same thing. Frankly, unless I am missing something else, the ex-gf should be perfectly capable of working full time too. I am sorry but I don't believe the ex should expect the father of her child to support her if she has made the unilateral decision to be a stay at home Mom.

I really think joint custody is the way to resolve the money issues and any problems that seem to occur with visitation rights. Each party is financially responsible for their child. Period. If either party defaults or attempts to manipulate the situation, they can be reeled in easier with a legal agreement rather than an informal one.

As far as Grandma getting too involved and seeing the situation from only one point of view, yes, well, that is what usually occurs when something like this happens. We see it all the time here and in other areas of our lives. People get frustrated and look for advice. Virago started her OP by saying she "just needed to vent". She was also asking if anyone had been through this too and/or had some non-violent advice to offer. I think you guys are being a tad tough on the lady. Maybe I am tired or off my game today but I don't care if there is more to the story or if she is sticking her nose where it doesn't belong. I would like to see her come back & use this site. It won't happen if we whip her with a wet noodle. (Where the heck did that expression come from anyway?).

Virago, I hope your son gets things resolved by legal means and you all get to enjoy his daughter again. Good luck!

Lemming,

Virago did ask for advice. My advice is that the son needs to behave much more responsibly, like an actual father, and, generally, there needs to be more respect and less vitriol.

I agree it's unclear why the father is not spending half time with his daughter and equally unclear why mother is not working part time. If she could find just the right job, she could work between 9:30 and 2:30, or about 20 hours per week, given the nursery school schedule.

A week contains 168 hours. That leaves 40 hours to work, 40 hours to sleep, and 88 for the everything else. The son should be able to find more time for his daughter than he has so far. Otherwise, there is really no grounds for complaint.

The son has to take his responsibility and duties. When her son has the child during his visits he can allow his mother to see the child.

The grandmother needs to be talking to her son to make things happen.

As far as Grandma getting too involved and seeing the situation from only one point of view, yes, well, that is what usually occurs when something like this happens. We see it all the time here and in other areas of our lives. People get frustrated and look for advice. Virago started out her OP by saying she "just needed to vent". She was also asking if anyone had been through this too and/or had some non-violent advice to offer. I think you guys are being a tad tough on the lady. Maybe I am tired or off my game today but I don't care if there is more to the story or if she is sticking her nose where it doesn't belong. I would like to see her come back & use this site. It won't happen if we whip her with a wet noodle. (Where the heck did that expression come from anyway?).

Virago, I hope your son gets things resolved by legal means and you all get to enjoy his daughter again. Good luck!



Maybe your viewpoint after 120 posts and mine (and others) after a combined total of 50,000 posts is different.

I think sugar coating this situation in which a CHILD is a pawn in a adults' war has to be addressed for just what it is.

Whip with a wet noodle? Hardly. Tell it like I (speaking only for myself) see it is something else.

Did you read the post? The Police had to be called. The OP has no standing in this fight. This is her son's battle, not hers, and maybe if it were handed back to him he would handle it.

There is a child being played as a pawn here.

I also note no legal advice was asked for. That's why this is in the other family and people (relationship) category. On the legal boards the strict advice would be (and nothing else) - the son has to get a Court Order concerning any/all of these issues. No personal advice, nothing else.

I think sugar coating this situation in which a CHILD is a pawn in a adults' war has to be addressed for just what it is.

Whip with a wet noodle? Hardly. Tell it like I (speaking only for myself) see it is something else.

Did you read the post? The Police had to be called. The OP has no standing in this fight. This is her son's battle, not hers, and maybe if it were handed back to him he would handle it.

There is a child being played as a pawn here.

I also note no legal advice was asked for. That's why this is in the other family and people (relationship) category. On the legal boards the strict advice would be (and nothing else) - the son has to get a Court Order concerning any/all of these issues. No personal advice, nothing else.

Of course the child is being used as a pawn. Do I think you and Asking are right in your evaluation of the situation? Yes. Do I think the OP is wearing blinders and won't listen to a word either of you say? Yes. You are a very smart woman. I know you can differentiate between someone you can really get through to and someone you can't. As soon as I saw the wording the neighbor girl "fell pregnant" I knew this was going to be a one sided affair. You can ask questions and try to use reason with this OP, but she isn't going to budge because she believes she is in the right and nothing anyone says here is going to change that. THAT was my point in posting what I did. I felt directing her to find a good barrister will only help the situation. He/she will be in a face to face situation and will deal with the entire family directly and will be able to verbally delineate what each player's role is. ;)
You and I both know that simply because this wasn't posted under the "legal" forum it doesn't negate a response advising someone to go get legal help.


Maybe your viewpoint after 120 posts and mine (and others) after a combined total of 50,000 posts is different.
I have noticed over the past couple of years the "experts" have used this line quite often. Judy, I remember when you were a newbie. How else did I know to say "MT" to you on another thread? Please don't assume that the person you are speaking with knows less than you do simply because they have a smaller number of posts and they don't have the title of "Expert".

You and I both know that simply because this wasn't posted under the "legal" forum it doesn't negate a response advising someone to go get legal help.

I have noticed over the past couple of years the "experts" have used this line quite often. Judy, I remember when you were a newbie. How else did I know to say "MT" to you on another thread? Please don't assume that the person you are speaking with knows less than you do simply because they have a smaller number of posts and they don't have the title of "Expert".


You missed my first point entirely - I was addressing why personal advice was posted here instead of strictly legal advice. On the legal board it would have been strictly legal. Posting on the legal board pretty much precludes the personal advice. It doesn't work the other way around.

I am not assuming anyone knows more or less than I do, has more or less education or experience, nor have I ever said that. What I do know is that those of us who have posted many, many times have a better sense of where a thread is going - answer the same or similar question about five hundred times and you have a completely different viewpoint. The ex-female partner is always hysterical, vindictive, irresponsible; the ex-male partner is always violent and has a drinking problem. That's just how the situation is presented.

I am well aware that the majority of the people who post legal questions only want their actions or thinking to be ratified - they don't want to know the legal answer. They want to hear that they are right.

And some legal advice surprises me but this isn't a legal thread and so I didn't comment. You said: "He won't be responsible for paying her A FREAKING DIME if he can get Joint Custody order from the courts." From my reading of UK law the non-custodial parent still pays child support to the custodial parent when there is a joint custody order. The money doesn't go to "her" (the ex). It is for the support of the child.

I am also somewhat surprised by your public scolding of people (experts or not) who give answers which don't agree with yours. I would never deny you the right to express your opinion, whether I agreed with it.

I'm amazed that you remember when I was a "newbie." I joined in 2007; you joined in 2010. Did you post under another name in the past?

Virago, I hope you haven't left this web site permanently. If you are reading these posts, this link might help your family:

UK Divorce : Child Custody Law : Joint Custody (http://www.ohhoo.com/custody.php)

Virago, I am in England and my understanding is that grandparents have little recourse in law at the moment.

There is some information here:

Paternal Grandparent's Rights - Separated Dads (UK) (http://www.separateddads.co.uk/paternal-grandparents-rights.html)

The present coalition government has promised a review on this to strengthen grandparents rights but time will tell what and when will change.

For now I think the best thing you can do is encourage your son to get his own arrangements legally formalised so that you can see your grandchild when the father has her.

Virago, I am in England and my understanding is that grandparents have little recourse in law at the moment.

There is some information here:

Paternal Grandparent's Rights - Separated Dads (UK) (http://www.separateddads.co.uk/paternal-grandparents-rights.html)

The present coalition government has promised a review on this to strengthen grandparents rights but time will tell what and when will change.

For now I think the best thing you can do is encourage your son to get his own arrangements legally formalised so that you can see your grandchild when the father has her.


Seeing the grandchild when the father "has her" is not a given - the mother may very well NOT want the grandmother to visit and may raise issues (as previously discussed) in Court. If the Court agrees that the grandparent is problematical I see supervised visitation so that the grandmother CAN'T see the child.

I'm not saying it's fair or right; I'm saying I've seen it.

I don't have an answer.
I'm in the same spot, but it's my daughter, who has just had what I can only call a mental break... has cut me off from them. My grandkids are 10 and 12. They have a good father, I think the kids are safe, but nobody in her milieu seems to have noticed that these kids have been deprived of a loving grandmother for no apparent reason.
I'm trying to write something in a birthday card... and I am at a loss what to say. Needless to say I cry over this several times a day.

I don't have an answer.
I'm in the same spot, but it's my daughter, who has just had what I can only call a mental break... has cut me off from them. My grandkids are 10 and 12. They have a good father, I think the kids are safe, but nobody in her milieu seems to have noticed that these kids have been deprived of a loving grandmother for no apparent reason.
I'm trying to write something in a birthday card... and I am at a loss what to say. Needless to say I cry over this several times a day.

You should type this into the box at the top of the page and that will start a new thread just for you and your problem.

This thread has not been posted to (until now) for a week or two.
You will get a better response by reposting in the box that says "Ask your question or search"