A bunch of Canadian Liberal Party thinkers got togther to discuss various issues... a "thinkers conference" . One of the issues they discussed was the state of the national health care program .

The solution to the myriad of problems facing their system ? Well;according to reporting in the 'Montreal Gazette :


In a morning session on health care the conference was told that Canadians and their governments must face up to some hard facts and have "an adult conversation" about the future of the country's health care system.The advice came from David Dodge, the past governor of the Bank of Canada and former deputy finance minister who said medicare costs will inevitably rise in coming years at a greater rate than government revenues and the country's gross domestic product, and require some unpalatable choices to be made.Choices he suggested include new taxes specifically dedicated for health care or a steady reduction in the scope and quality of services provided by the public health system that would require people to either pay for private care themselves or suffer ever greater wait times for service in the public system."These are stark and unpalatable choices that we face with respect to health care, but there is no magic solution," he said. "We absolutely must have an adult debate about how we deal with this. Finding solutions in this area is extraordinarily difficult, but it is imperative."
Carbon tax a hot topic at Liberals' conference (http://www.montrealgazette.com/business/Carbon%20topic%20Liberals%20conference/2735249/story.html)

Ah yes... new taxes isn't it always the way ? Maybe they should listen instead to President Obama who swears that his "magic solution" will cut taxes and reduce the deficit.

Why don't they just use part of the carbon tax to pay for health care and kill many birds with one stone? Think about it, you have extra revenue for health care via the carbon tax. With the exorbitant prices for fuel people will drive less leading to cleaner air and healthier citizens. And with fewer people who can afford to drive there will be fewer doctor visits in an already overburdened system. Either that or Canadians can car pool to the doctor and have group office visits.

They could think about the solution used in New Zealand and add an extra charge to the postage, sort of a stamp tax.

It is not as bad as the media paints it out to be.

What are you going to believe... the truth or your lying eyes ?

You have no idea what your talking about tomber.

It is not as bad as the media paints it out to be.

Joe, what about Alty who's H&H was so low that we would have given her a transfusion here in the states but she had to wait over 2 weeks for an appointment for a simple procedure and a month for a CT scan?

Both of those procedures would have been done within a week here in the states... most likely immediately with her background.

We know our system is flawed, but you have to admit yours isn't perfect either.

It isn't as important if I know what I 'm talking about . Does David Dodge, the past governor of the Bank of Canada and former deputy finance minister know what he's talking about ?

No, he doesn't either. Just because somebody used to be the government of bank of canada means squat. Or deputy finance minister, means squat.

FORMER, bank of canada, former deputy finance minister.

Does not really make the story true. Also it is also based on opinion.

I am happy with my Canadian Health care, and have had no problems. It all depends on the province as well, on the delivery system of the health care.

I tell you what though I am a proud Canadian and love my Country and for Americans and American interest groups to pick apart our system to scare gullible Americans into believing their system is better is the biggest crock of them all.

J9, personally, everybody has good and bad experiences.

Truth be known, it all depends on the doctors, staff, hospital and where you are.

I can tell you that yes there may be flaws in our system too but I will take Canada health care system over American health care.

Along with that. There has been certain situations , etc... with my family and has been nothing but quick action but that is from doctors who do the care and push for things to get done.

I have seen people go into ER, and would have a CT scan done the very same day. That is fact.

Specialist appointments made immediately and tests done immediately. MRI scans done within a short time and other exams and tests.

But can you afford it ? Sounds like you are going to need deep pocketsfor the government to pick.

I tell you what though I am a proud Canadian and love my Country and for Americans and American interest groups to pick apart our system to scare gullible Americans into believing their system is better is the biggest crock of them all.

I think you got it in one there JH, there is a an awefull lot of "the grass is greener here" coming from the US on health care and the statistics don't back it up. Every country has its nighmare stories and its successes. I don't want to rain on their parade but it seems to me that if the system wasn't broken someone would not want to reform it.

I think there must be a lot of low self esteem in America because they are always telling the rest of us how good they are.

The problem Clete is that the Canadian system has been touted here by the left as a system we should model our's after .I'm sorry ,when I see government ministers coming here for care and former gvt ministers telling us that unless they get a large cash infusion from the taxpayers then their system will collapse like a house of cards ;then it doesn't exactly reinforce this perception .

I think it is a matter of national pride that is making them myopic to the obvious flaws .

the problem Clete is that the Canadian system has been touted here by the left as a system we should model our's after .I'm sorry ,when I see government ministers coming here for care and former gvt ministers telling us that unless they get a large cash infusion from the taxpayers then their system will collapse like a house of cards ;then it doesn't exactly reinforce this perception .

I think it is a matter of national pride that is making them myopic to the obvious flaws .

Why are these ministers or former government ministers getting care in the states? Hmmm, so they can get a head of the normal Canadian. Because these ministers makes 300, 000 or more dollars a year and can afford to get ahead of the Normal Canadian and are willing to pay for care to get ahead of the normal Canadian. IT is not necessarily better care or quicker care. These Ministers making so much money off our taxes and putting into their own pockets and using it too treat themselves to care else where. Who is paying for that we are as taxpayers. As far as I am concerned ministers who do that should lose any perks and any entitlement and should not be allowed to be treated any different then any other Canadian and not waste our money for treatment they can and should get here in Canada.

I think it is a matter of national pride that is making them myopic to the obvious flaws .

I think that there is altogether too much focus on flaws and benefits, what has been lost is the basic concept of care and responsibility. Our respective lifestyles that made us more prone to disease and therefore the need of health care. No more do we just suck it up and get on with it. I remember when I had no need of a doctor from year to year but those days are long gone and I am pleased that my government sees it as it's responsibility to ensure that I at least have access to basic health care. Now if I have to pay a small basic charge for enjoying that service, it is not too much to ask and if I want more then there is health insurance, but the idea that we should be allowed a free ride during the short time we are low risk, but expect that the medical services are there waiting for us is a very foolish notion.

What ever happened to the idea of public good or that it is undesirable that society should have large numbers of untreated sick in its midst. This is the twenty first century, are you guys stuck in an eighteenth century time warp over there where you can't think a thought that didn't first pass through the mind of Jefferson and co.

I think that there is altogether too much focus on flaws and benefits, what has been lost is the basic concept of care and responsibility. Our respective lifestyles that made us more prone to disease and therefore the need of health care.



We all should take responsibility for our own health and our own well being. At the same time, I do not feel or think that people purposely run themselves to the ground or not take care of themselves on purpose so they can have the care, and nor do I think people think well if I get sick there will be free care there to take care of me, or us anyway.

My whole family would be out in the streets and bankrupt if we did not have the system we have here in canada. There are certain health care or conditions that need to be treated and it is not about lifestyle or not taking care of ourselves.

So blessed to be in Canada. (;
I honestly do not know what my family would do if we were under the American health care umbrella.

So blessed to be in Canada. (;
I honestly do not know what my family would do if we were under the American health care umbrella.

Understand where you are coming from JH, I certainly couldn't afford the drug regime my doctor prescribes if I lived in the US

Our respective lifestyles that made us more prone to disease and therefore the need of health care.

Consider this... the reason we require the additional health care is because health care has become so good and available that people are living longer. Much of the disease being treated are related to simply getting old.

but the idea that we should be allowed a free ride during the short time we are low risk, but expect that the medical services are there waiting for us is a very foolish notion.

It is hardly a free ride now where young people trying to start a life are expected already in this country to subsidize ,through their tax contributions, the existence of retirees ;many of whom are perfectly capable of a self sufficient existence .

The problem in all the Western nations is that we have expanded the safety net for the truly needy for people who could easily manage without it. A middle class safety net is not required except in a nanny-state.


My whole family would be out in the streets and bankrupt if we did not have the system we have here in canada. There are certain health care or conditions that need to be treated and it is not about lifestyle or not taking care of ourselves.


You would then find it remarkable that the vast majority of Americans under the current system are not out in the streets and bankrupt even under what Clete mistakenly calls an eighteenth century time warp .

Even the most exaggerated numbers that are thrown out there represents no more than 16% of the US population . The new overhaul addresses at best 4% of the US population .

Surely you aren't telling me that you would fall into a gap in the US that 96% of Americans manage to avoid ? Are you so dependent on the state for your existence ? I always saw the Canadian and the Aussie as someone made of rugged sterner stuff and never before saw them as sheeple.

For the people touting the Canadian system as perfection in exicution... explain the rationing, massive delays for needed procedures... and the fact that YOUR PrimeMinister came HERE to the USA for a Heart procedure rather than deal with the Canadian System, explain the thousands of Canadians that come south to Pay cash for things they can't get under the Canadian System that they NEED.

Sorry, but if you need something NOW... you need it NOW. Sorry you have Cancer, we might be able to schedule you in, say in about 8-12 months from now... how is that... eh?

Sorry, The Canadian system along with the European system leave a LOT to be desired from the perspective of someone that needs treatment NOW or they risk death.

I've not been in a Canadian system... But I have inlaws that are... I've seen the European system first hand, and have many in-laws and friends who have as well, and many that died in it from gross stupidity build into the system.

99% of the people that tout someone else's system over our own... have never seen it for themselves... they only believe propaganda spewed by others who have never seen it either, or choose to spread lies about how good it is.


Now our system isn't perfect... but thinning the population by rationing needed care when its needed isn't in the publics interest.

You can't treat needed emergency care like elective surgery. Cancer, or Heart problems are NOT as low priority as boob jobs. Emergency care is needed NOW... not rescheduled 6 months in the future.. Or Sorry, we hit our quota for emergencies this month... please go home and bleed/ die at your own residence please.

So blessed to be in Canada. (;
I honestly do not know what my family would do if we were under the American health care umbrella.
I hear you brother. I echo your sentiments.:)

So, you love the Canadian system so much... move to Canada.


But you forfit your right to return here to our system when you find out what its really like.


But oh... you've never actually seen socialized medicine first hand have you? I've going to bet not... and likely never even traveled abroad and certainly never lived where they have it for any amount of time.

Spead more propaganda about a system you know absolutely nothing about... like half of congress is doing... hell the speaker of the House never even read the Bill...

She said... "We need to vote for this bill so you can find out whats in it."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoE1R-xH5To Got her on video... of course the DNC will claim she never said it.

So, you love the Canadian system so much....move to Canada.I'm here now!

I'm here now!

Then exactly why in the hell are you arguing about why WE need the crappy system you have.

I don't have to wait for anything like you do in many cases. WE don't ration care... medicine, or make people wait absurd ammounts of time for treatment.

And your own leaders admit the Canadian system is going to collapse without massive influxes of money.

Don't get me wrong.. Canada isn't a bad place and you have plenty of nice people... but conversely there are things I really dislike about it.

Actually I have several In-laws in Montreal, I get my input from their experiences under the Canadian system. They aren't happy with it but lack the Money to come south and pay cash. I've only traveled the far eastern part of Canada, I was particularly enamored with Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island was beautiful but a tad rural for my tastes.

Surely you aren't telling me that you would fall into a gap in the US that 96% of Americans manage to avoid ?

In a logical world Obamacare would be considered major overkill considering those numbers. But then some of us have known all along it was never about providing health care for those who need it.

You would then find it remarkable that the vast majority of Americans under the current system are not out in the streets and bankrupt even under what Clete mistakenly calls an eighteenth century time warp .

Even the most exagerated numbers that are thrown out there represents no more than 16% of the US population . The new overhaul addresses at best 4% of the US population .

Surely you aren't telling me that you would fall into a gap in the US that 96% of Americans manage to avoid ? Are you so dependent on the state for your existance ? I always saw the Canadian and the Aussie as someone made of rugged sterner stuff and never before saw them as sheeple.

Tom let's address your misquoting of my words, the eighteenth century time wrap refers not to present day health care but the idea that men in the eighteenth century had a ability to define the circumstances that twenty first century man should live under and that therefore a government should not legislate for the welfare of its citizens

16% of a population is a significant number, you are suggesting that you didn't mind if 16% of your population had the potential to be bankrupted by your existing system and that it is even all right if 4% remain at risk just so long as you don't have to help out a little.

I can't speak for Canadians but Australians are made of sterner stuff, in fact so much so that we don't allow our citizens to be placed at risk unnecessarily, we don't shirk our responsibilities to our fellow citizens, but then our founders had a slightly different ethic and a century of hindsight when they founded our Commonwealth, they took the word seriously and our governments have taken it seriously ever since therefore we are not sheeple following blindly after long lost concepts but brumbys running free in the high country of public responsibility

Your safety net doesn't let anyone through ? I find that difficult to believe .The inherent inefficiency of a bureaucracy tells me that is probably not true.

your safety net doesn't let anyone through ? I find that difficult to believe .The inherent inefficiency of a bureaucracy tells me that is probably not true.

Perhaps we don't suffer from the same level of inefficiency in bureaucracy, not to say some parts of it aren't inefficient, but we actually do have a safety net on top of the coverage so that when expenses are excessive there is help available, the only people who can fall through the cracks are those who want to be rugged individualists and pay for it themselves
Medicare Safety Net - Medicare Australia (http://www.medicareaustralia.gov.au/public/services/msn/index.jsp#N1003C)
Department of Health and Ageing - Pharmaceutical Benefits Safety Net Arrangements (http://www.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/health-pbs-general-pbs-phbensna.htm-copy2)

You see Tom there is a lot to be said for a single payer option, although our system isn't entirely single payer because there is insurance and there may be a gap payment but Medicare picks up most of the tab and either pays the doctor or hospital directly or rebates the cost on presentation of the bill. The insurance companies are free to compete, the doctors are free to compete and the patient gets on with being treated without the hassle

Montreal is a small city in Quebec. It is not all of canada. So your argument falls flat Tom.

I don't think the Libz have a chance of getting elected. They tried running on a carbon tax last time and fell flat on their face. The new leader isn't much more popular and the Tories are much more in tune with average Canadian's views on issues such as law and order and taxes.

I don't think the Libz have a chance of getting elected. They tried running on a carbon tax last time and fell flat on their face. The new leader isn't much more popular and the Tories are much more in tune with average Canadian's views on issues such as law and order and taxes.

Very true.

Personally I don't know a lot about Canadian healthcare except what you see in the TV ads. And we should all know by now that if it's in a TV ad, it's probably a lie or some exaggerated far-stretched version of the truth.

Does this mean I support Obama, God no! I have spoken with a friend who used to live in England and she loves the universal healthcare system there. But how do they pay for it? 17.5% sales tax!

Would rather pay higher taxes.. Then worry about not having health care coverage.

17.5% might not seem like a lot for a pack of gum or a pair of shoes, but just think about buying a car! 17.5% on a $20k vehicle is $3500! Taxes on a $300k home... $52,500!!

Does this mean I support Obama, God no! I have spoken with a friend who used to live in England and she loves the universal healthcare system there. But how do they pay for it? 17.5% sales tax!

All these things are relative, you have to look at the entire tax system and what they get in return. I could complain that a person in the US is taxed less than I am if I just look at the rates but then I don't need to buy expensive health insurance, but actually a person in the US isn't taxed less than I am because I haven't paid income tax in years. This doesn't mean I'm not taxed

That is England, not Canada. Plus each province has different tax rates.

Would rather pay higher taxes.. Then worry about not having health care coverage.

So.. you would rather Politicians determine if you get a treatment or not, rather than your Doctor?

Incidentally, can you name a single Federal agency that is efficient, responsive. And isn't a black hole for tax dollars. And can you name a federal agency that MAKES more money than they cost?


Sorry, I've spent an inordinate amount of time in and around Government entities and fascilities the last 25 years. Nobody that has seen what I have seen can look at ANY of them as being capable of fixing their own problems much less everyone else's too.

So..you would rather Politicians determine if you get a treatment or not, rather than your Doctor?I can say with 100% certainty that you have no idea how our system operates.

I can say with 100% certainty that you have no idea how our system operates.

SO your government has NOTHING to do with your health care system... and they don't impose any rationing at all, has NOTHING at all to do with who works in any part of it... yet SOMEHOW its nationalized and taxed by the Canadian Government, is that what the Canadian News tells you?

SO your government has NOTHING to do with your health care system....But that's not what you wrote is it. Here you chose to write something else and make that the argument. One cannot continue discussions with you if you continuously do this.

Just noticed... we have another Wolverine here!!

I do not think anybody can continue any discussions. In their eyes they know it all. I could say more but it is all self explanatory.

It astounds me how the Canadians that frequent this forum defend their health care system. Since I am not Canadian (thank goodness) I cannot comment except from what I have heard first hand from Canadians that I worked with over the years. In the large cities the system works relatively well albeit slow at times for tests or procedures that we up till now have considered routine. The problem comes when you get to the small towns in the provinces of the west. Health care has been nearly non existent. Clinics are open maybe one or two days a week because of the lack of doctors and nurses. If you need a simple surgery you must go to one of the major cities where you are placed on a waiting list. Again, this is not my opinion, but words spoken by Canadians about their system. Sadly Nobama and congress is forcing us into this sort of rationing system that will place those of us over the age of 60 toward the bottom of the list for any surgery because we are not as productive as people under 40. Is that a better system than one in which we are responsible for paying for our own health care out of our own pocket? That debate will rage on for a long time, With everyone having an opinion on it. But is sure is fun watching the fight.

The problem comes when you get to the small towns in the provinces of the west. Health care has been nearly non existent. Clinics are open maybe one or two days a week because of the lack of doctors and nurses. If you need a simple surgery you must go to one of the major cities where you are placed on a waiting list. Again, this is not my opinion, but words spoken by Canadians about their system.

That is simply untrue. I live in a very small rural area and the health care is astounding. Simple surgery does not take long. Tests do not take long. There is no lack of doctors here. Clinics are open all week, 5 days a week. Yes, it is only your opinion. I am a Canadian speaking the truth about my experience. I am out in the west and the care is a lot better here. I have lived all across canada from the far east coast, to central canada to the west coast.

Your completely wrong. By the way I am glad and happy not to be American myself.

I guess Canada may be looking at healthcare reform also:

http://www.cma.ca/multimedia/CMA/Content_Images/Inside_cma/Media_Release/2010/PostBudget2010_en.pdf





The poll, conducted for the CMA by Ipsos Reid, asked Canadians if they agreed or disagreed that health care would eclipse other public spending priorities. Results found that 59% of respondents said they would. When pressed as to how the sustainability crunch in health care spending should be addressed, most (91%) said making the health care system more efficient and effective was the best way to slow down growing health care costs. Two-thirds (66%) said rewards and penalties to encourage healthy living could help slow down growing health costs.






G&P

Well that is a poll, where was it conducted? How many people took part? Etc. Etc. Sorry this Canadian and many others do not want to adapt to an American style system. We want to continue with the system we have here. Simple.

By CMA; Canadian doctors. I would assume they know what they are talking about when it comes to Canadian healthcare. No system is perfect: healthcare costs are rising in Canada as well as here in the US; despite the differences in the way healthcare is delivered.



G&P

Well that is a poll, where was it conducted? How many people took part? Etc. Etc. Sorry this Canadian and many others do not want to adapt to an American style system. We want to continue with the system we have here. Simple.

I know, NK says it all the time. It still doesn't account for the number of Canadians seeking care here and the growth of private care facilities in Canada which I've documented here a number of times. Apparently a lot of Canadians aren't as enamored with it as you and NK.

I don't understand why you have a need to convince us that we should be unhappy with our healthcare system. Are you that bored? Can't stand to see someone happy?

I don't know about anyone else but I'm happy that you're happy... I've said it before. Why are you trying to convince us you're all happy when the evidence says otherwise?

I don't see evidence of the evidence.

You're pretty good at searching my posts, find it. It's there.

Your job seems to be to find all the unhappy people in the world and all the lunatics in order to prove some point. The fact is that if some politician here were to run on the platform of privatizing healthcare he/she wouldn't get very far, there would be a serious lack of support.

NK, I’m not interested in playing your games, I said I’m happy you’re happy and I mean it. In fact, I couldn’t care less what Canada does with their health care system. Like most Americans I just don’t want ours to be like yours. It’s not my problem that you’re overly sensitive to having it’s shortcomings pointed out as an example of what we don’t want.

That is simply untrue. I live in a very small rural area and the health care is astounding. Simple surgery does not take long. Tests do not take long. There is no lack of doctors here. Clinics are open all week, 5 days a week. Yes, it is only your opinion. I am a Canadian speaking the truth about my experience. I am out in the west and the care is a lot better here. I have lived all across canada from the far east coast, to central canada to the west coast.

Your completely wrong. By the way I am glad and happy not to be American myself.

That's not what my inlaws in Montreal tell me... and that's not a backwater city they live IN Montreal, not a suburb. WHen my wife's aunt needed surgery for a rather bad case of diverticulitis... she had to wait 6 months to have it. In the USA if you need it, you get it, within days when its elective... immediately when its serious.

Canadians might be used to waiting in line for stuff when they are sick... we here in the USA have learned that's neither desired or acceptable. You only HAVE to wait when you have an inefficient system that can't keep up with need or demand.

And my in-laws in Canada number 12, in 4 different families. I'm not hearing this from one idividual, but from all of them.

Hello again, smoothy:

I'm sure there's rationing of health care in Canada. But, why do you think there ISN'T health care rationing here? We DO, of course, ration health care. Our rationing is based on one's ability to pay, whereas Canada's rationing is based on one's ability to wait.

At least in Canada, someone is seen by a doctor eventually. Here, if you don't have any money, you DON'T see a doctor. Our system is fine if you have money. It's not so fine if you don't.

Now, you can argue that our system of rationing is better because it's based on capitalism, the free market, and the right stuff. But, to put down the Canadians because they ration AT ALL, is the proverbial pot calling the kettle black.

excon

Here, if you don't have any money, you DON'T see a doctor.

That, is a bald-faced lie.

That, is a bald-faced lie.Hello again, Steve:

Chill out dude. I may mis speak, sometimes, but I ain't no liar. You're right. A poor person can see a doctor in the emergency room. I should have been more precise and said that if you're poor, you don't get health care.

Now THAT ain't no lie.

excon

Hello again, smoothy:

I'm sure there's rationing of health care in Canada. But, why do you think there ISN'T health care rationing here? We DO, of course, ration health care. Our rationing is based on one's ability to pay, whereas Canada's rationing is based on one's ability to wait.

At least in Canada, someone is seen by a doctor eventually. Here, if you don't have any money, you DON'T see a doctor. Our system is fine if you have money. It's not so fine if you don't.

Now, you can argue that our system of rationing is better because it's based on capitalism, the free market, and the right stuff. But, to put down the Canadians because they ration AT ALL, is the proverbial pot calling the kettle black.

exconWHO rations health care here? Don't tell me I don't get mine rationed because I'm white...

Now You made a statement YOU have to prove... because its patently False... and it's a talking point the left uses all the time.

YOU said " Here, if you don't have any money, you DON'T see a doctor. " which is total Bullsh*t. Emergency rooms are not and have not been allowed to turn away people for lack of insurance or money, PROVE otherwise.

If you have a serious illness... "eventually" isn't going to cut it.

Cancer, heart attack... etc... there are a LOT of situations "Eventually" isn't acceptable for.

Canadians might be fine with dying for the "greater good" of a socialist system. I'm not, nor are MOST Americans. Those who like the Canadian system so much are welcome to move there to get it... they however lose any "right of return" once they find out reality is not what is advertised. Many Canadians never knew another system or remember a different one. Of course THEY won't see the problem, because they don't know a better system to compare to.

Chill out dude. I may mis speak, sometimes, but I ain't no liar. You're right. A poor person can see a doctor in the emergency room. I should have been more precise and said that if you're poor, you don't get health care.

Now THAT ain't no lie.

Still not true and you know it. You forget I have first hand experience with my adult daughter who didn't have a penny when she was diagnosed with AIDS. You don't get any poorer than that and she has always had health care - including dental - since. I don't know about in California where she is now, but she had first rate doctors here.

Still not true and you know it.Hello again, Steve:

Must been that last hit...

Yup, I mis spoke again, I should have said that if you're poor, you get medicaid. If you're a member of the working poor, you don't get health care...

Now, before you say that health care is available at the ER, I'm going to call YOU a liar. We've had this discussion before. You say that going to see a doctor at the ER when you're sick is the same thing as getting health care. I say it's not. Plus, if you say the working poor get health care, because you know someone who's poor and they get great health care, I'm again, going to call YOU the liar.

excon

Hello again, Steve:

Must been that last hit...

Yup, I mis spoke again, I should have said that if you're poor, you get medicaid. If you're a member of the working poor, you don't get health care...
Now, before you say that health care is available at the ER, I'm gonna call YOU a liar. We've had this discussion before. You say that going to see a doctor at the ER when you're sick is the same thing as getting health care. I say it's not. Plus, if you say the working poor get health care, because you know someone who's poor and they get great health care, I'm again, gonna call YOU the liar.

excon
Still total Bullsh*t...

My brother years ago got downsized... right after he started his new job he had a ruptured appendix... he wasn't yet covered under his new employers insurance... he had no money...

was he tossed out on the street to die like you claim here... no, they operated on him... when he had complications that meant he had to be fed intravieniously for a month... he got it...

And contrary to what YOU claimed yet again following Democrat party talking points which are pure propaganda and false... you DO get needed care even IF you aren't insured, OR on Medicaid.


Why YOU and the left THINK you should get top tier care without paying a dime for anything is typical Socialist mindset. Basic care is all anyone who is unwilling to pay for deserves.

I suppose you complain Soup Kitchens don't serve prime rib and lobster too?



Doctors spend a lot of time in school, a lot of money to go to school... and why people on the left think they should get everything free while they overvalue their own time is beyond understanding.


When was the last time YOU worked for free, or paid someone else's bill when you were out?

Do the poor deserve new cars... a new free house... free airfares to the French Riviera? Will YOU pay for it for them? I know I won't.


Ever go to an emergency room... want to know how many "Poor" people all have their own cell phones... ever notice how those cost far more than basic service in your house... see their misplaced priorities?

And contrary to what YOU claimed yet again following Democrat party talking points which are pure propaganda and false....you DO get needed care even IF you aren't insured, OR on Medicaid.Hello again smoothy:

Then the 35 million Obama is going to cover is just a waste of money, because all those people NOW get the greatest health care in the world... Is THAT what you're saying?

So, the idea to cover them is really just a secret commie plot to send the country into ruin? What IS the point of covering them, if they already have good care? Maybe a secret commie plot to "take over" the rest of the country - although I don't see how insuring all these people is going to do that.

Really, smoothy. People DIE here in this country because they don't have access to health care. This law is going to help that.

I know. I know. You're going to stick with your commie BS.

excon

Hello again smoothy:

Then the 35 million Obama is going to cover is just a waste of money, because all those people NOW get the greatest health care in the world... Is THAT what you're saying?

So, the idea to cover them is really just a secret commie plot to send the country into ruin? What IS the point of covering them, if they already have good care? Maybe a secret commie plot to "take over" the rest of the country - although I don't see how insuring all these people is gonna do that.

Really, smoothy. People DIE here in this country because they don't have access to health care. This law is gonna help that.

I know. I know. You're gonna stick with your commie BS.

excon

Exactly... a TOTAL waste of money... THEY have money to eat out... they have money for cell phones... they have money for cable TV, they have money for video games... they have money for everything but what they should buy first.

"Really, smoothy. People DIE here in this country because they don't have access to health care. This law is gonna help that."

Total Bulls*t... Prove it... If people were thrown out on the street from hospitals to die... the left wing news would be all over it... so that claim should be real easy for you to prove. With 30 million (12 million of whom are illegals)... there while be hundreds of thousands of deaths in front of hospitals by your assertations.

Because if you can't back that lie up with some evidence... then read into what that makes you.

And because some DNC official blowhard makes that claim, even Dumbo Ears Obama... its still a bold faced lie.

And ANY person who does or ever has worked in a hospital knows the LAW is they HAVE to treat them.


Funny how if YOU was forced to work for free... you'd be screaming slavery... or forced servitude. Yet you expect Doctors to do it.

Expect MANY doctors to close up shop rather than work like that... If I was a doctor... I'd take a hiatus... rather than work for less than free. Because they still have bills and rents to pay... no income is better than having to pay to work.


And we are talking FEDERAL law that requires them to take anyone who walks into a ER... not state or local laws.

- Montreal is a city in the province of Quebec.

- Canada has 10 provinces and 3 territories. So to say that experiences in Montreal speak for the rest of canada is just unbelievable.

- Each province has the responsibility to deliver health care to the citizens.

- Quebec government has always wanted to do things there own way, be there own distant country and etc etc... To say there changes they want in health care, and also to be arrogant enough to think the rest of the country should follow suit because of one province. It does not work that way, sorry.

- So what, Montreal had bad experiences. That does not speak for the rest of canada.

- Nor do the americans know enough about Canada to know a lot. Tend to be so self absorbed in their own stuff and own issues that they have no clue what is going else where.

- On the other hand I think a lot of us, knows more about the united states because we do pay attention to the world around us. Not just focus on our own selves all the time.

- Canada has 10 provinces and 3 territories. So to say that experiences in Montreal speak for the rest of canada is just unbelievable.

This organization (http://www.timelymedical.ca/) thinks there is a coast to coast need for private care.


the americans... Tend to be so self absorbed in their own stuff and own issues that they have no clue what is going else where.

Is that a universal talking point outside of the U.S. I imagine it must be printed in textbooks across Europe and Canada as I've read it almost verbatim more times than I can count. Can we get a little more original with our insults?

It does not matter what organization thinks what, what matters is what Canadians think.

It is not an insult it is the truth. There is a big difference.

It does not matter what organization thinks what, what matters is what Canadians think.

And as I said, if you love it then great, but the evidence still shows a lot of Canadians don't feel the same way.


It is not an insult it is the truth. There is a big difference.

As if ignorance is a distinctly American trait...

And as I said, if you love it then great, but the evidence still shows a lot of Canadians don't feel the same way..Hey speech, if I post a website that shows an american group that favours universal healthcare does that now prove that a majority of Americans want that? Is that we play that game?

Hello again, smoothy:

I'm sure there's rationing of health care in Canada. But, why do you think there ISN'T health care rationing here? We DO, of course, ration health care. Our rationing is based on one's ability to pay, whereas Canada's rationing is based on one's ability to wait.

At least in Canada, someone is seen by a doctor eventually. Here, if you don't have any money, you DON'T see a doctor. Our system is fine if you have money. It's not so fine if you don't.

Now, you can argue that our system of rationing is better because it's based on capitalism, the free market, and the right stuff. But, to put down the Canadians because they ration AT ALL, is the proverbial pot calling the kettle black.

excon

Facts?


Go to any inner city university training program and I guarantee you that on every ward there multiple inpatients that have no insurance or the hospital / taxpayor is paying for it. Leave the keyboard behind and experience real life- go to Cook county in chicago or Charity in New Orleans or Kings county in New York or Grady in Atlanta. They get world class cutting edge medical treatment that can't even be imagined in countries with socialized medicine.

Also include the Shriner's hospital, St Jude Hospitals - why not donate?



G&P

Montreal is a city in the province of Quebec.

- Canada has 10 provinces and 3 territories. So to say that experiences in Montreal speak for the rest of canada is just unbelievable.

And here I thought it was a universal system in Canada .It is a system where provinces determine the level of care ? Sort of like the United States then, where each state determines the level of care the Medicaid system provides... or at least they did before Obamacare.
To tell you the truth ,I suspect here in NY the truly needy are going to get gypted because our social safety net is generous.

Facts?

They get world class cutting edge medical treatment that can't even be imagined in countries with socialized medicine.

G&P

This is an indication that you think the rest of the world is stupid and inferior to the US, there are many medical innovators in other parts of the world. The US health system is ranked 37th by the World Health Organisation behind such places of socialised medicine as France or perhaps the whole of Western Europe, Australia, Canada and ranks 14th on the scale of preventable deaths, 24th on life expectancy 95th in fairness of the financial contribution and only first in health expenditure per capita.

What does it tell us, that cutting edge that benefits the few you imagine you have available to you as a justification for the high cost of health care is actually delivering outcomes you would expect in Slovenia. All you are doing is keeping the doctors and insurance companies rich. I am glad I live in a system in which the delivery of any procedure isn't dependent upon the whim of an insurance company deadhead.
The WHO also made this comment

The authors also note that "it is difficult to disregard the observation that the slow decline in U.S. amenable mortality has coincided with an increase in the uninsured population, an issue that is now receiving renewed attention

WHO ?

They don't control for factors that have nothing to do with MEDICAL CARE - such things as obesity, ethnicity, smoking rates, homicide rates etc. things that have a big influence on mortality and life span rates but are not a good measure of actual medical care. In a measure of medical care, such as cancer survival rates, even the British medical journal, Lancet, has factual evidence that the US healthcare system is better.

As one who has been working in the US healthcare field for more than 20 years, If you think that people without the ability to pay or don't have insurance, don't get medical care, go to any hospital, any clinic, any health department and ask how much care is given free, or written off. Ask any ER doctor or nurse how many people, without any insurance ARE seen and taken care of.



G&P

and here I thought it was a universal system in Canada .It is a system where provinces determine the level of care ? Sorta like the United States then, where each state determines the level of care the Medicaid system provides....or at least they did before Obamacare.
To tell you the truth ,I suspect here in NY the truely needy are going to get gypted because our social safety net is generous.

There is a universal standard for Canada. There are laws each province is supposed to abide by. If they do not comply then they will get into a lot of trouble.

The province, Quebec is a unique situation on its own, but as said earlier. There are good hospitals, bad hospitals, good doctors and bad doctors. Just because people in Montreal quebec has had problems does not indicate that the whole country is the same.

As far as the social net, you guys in the state have none. What safety net do you guys have?

As far as the social net, you guys in the states have none. What safety net do you guys have?

It is fairly obvious isn't it? They rely on welfare or the charity of others, I don't this think is much different to a third world country

WHO ?

They don't control for factors that have nothing to do with MEDICAL CARE - such things as obesity, ethnicity, smoking rates, homicide rates etc. things that have a big influence on mortality and life span rates but are not a good measure of actual medical care. .

G&P

What you seem to ignore are the facts as documented by an independent organisation, in any case I thought we were discussing medical care. You want to discuss removing some of the causes of ill health, then start with your big corporations in food, tobacco, power. You want to say that your ethnicity causes you to have bad statistics, how come a place like Australia which is home to every race on Earth is higher up the scale than you are. It isn't ethnicity, but life style that affects health. Unless you are making a specific comment about particular races, ethnicity has no place in the argument. As far as mortality is concerned, certain other factors come into play, such as gun ownership, drug addiction, unemployment.

You miss the point. If someone dies due to heart disease in country A and does not in Country B, you have to control for confounding factors: tobacco use, cholesterol levels, age, high blood pressure, diabetes, family history. If there are more of these factors in Country A rather than country B then it is no surprise that Country a has higher rate of and deaths due to heart disease. That rate has nothing to do with actual medical care. You have to compare apples to apples, which the WHO does not.

I guess you are in favor of the government making lifestyle choices for you - rules for what you can eat or how much or what you can drink and you dare not smoke or have a waist above a certain size etc...

What ever happened to personal responsibility and choice?
Is it right for someone not to play an active role in their own health?
No one put a gun to your head and told you to smoke, eat fast food, and spend most of your time not moving around, so when you have metabolic syndrome why should you expect another taxpayor to pay for the lifestyle you led?

That is why costs are going up, the majority of healthcare dollars spent here or in socialized medicine are paid for by someone other than the person receiving the service.

G&P




G&P

High Blood Pressure Statistics (http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4621)



Non-Hispanic blacks are more likely to suffer from high blood pressure than are non-Hispanic whites.
Within the African-American community, those with the highest rates of hypertension, are more likely to be middle aged or older, less educated, overweight or obese, physically inactive, and to have diabetes.
In 2006 the death rates per 100,000 population from high blood pressure were 15.6 for white males, 51.1 for black males, 14.3 for white females and 37.7 for black females.





And yes, ethnicity does make a difference - a factual medical difference.



G&P

I guess you are in favor of the government making lifestyle choices for you - rules for what you can eat or how much or what you can drink and you dare not smoke or have a waist above a certain size etc...

G&P

Where do you get this stuff from? You have been listening to insurance company propaganda. The government doesn't make life style choices for me, it supports whatever choice I make but it does endeavour to have me make the right choice through information. I am probably personally paying for some wrong life style choices when I was younger but the government says nothing about that in it's approach to providing health care. Unlike your insurance companies it does not discriminate for pre-existing conditions.

The reality is you just don't get it because you live in a society which has a wrong idea of what freedom is really about. Freedom and Liberty is about every person having an equal opportunity to enjoy life to the fullest. Freedom isn't about every person doing his damnest to climb over the top of every other person.

Hey speech, if I post a website that shows an american group that favours universal healthcare does that now prove that a majority of Americans want that? Is that we play that game?

What part of me acknowledging - for the third time in this post alone now - that some like it and some, don't you get? I'm not misrepresenting Canadians or their health care system, don't misrepresent me.

NK Clete
Turns out you have less an understanding of the US system than I have of the Canadian .

I think that someone from Quebec should demand the same services the other provinces get. In fact;if anyone is denied any treatment or drug they should demand it because it's one of those unalienable rights you claim everyone has.

The truth is that here in the US nobody is denied needed food, housing ,education, or medical care . The safety net is designed however for the needy. What you think is needed is a larger safety net to cover the middle class and in the case of medical and "retirement" a universal safety net regardless of means.

That is unsustainable and you know it . Every western nation under that system will collapse under the burden eventually ;especially given the demographic trends of the West

The truth is that here in the US nobody is denied needed food, housing ,education, or medical care . Hello tom:

Black is white and white is black... I don't know about you, but in MY city, I see homeless people. I see hungry people. I see sick people... Maybe YOUR city is better than mine. Or maybe you just don't want to see those people.

The TRUTH is NOT in the possession of right wingers.

excon

Hello tom:

Black is white and white is black.... I dunno about you, but in MY city, I see homeless people. I see hungry people. I see sick people.... Maybe YOUR city is better than mine. Or maybe you just don't wanna see those people.

The TRUTH is NOT in the possession of right wingers.

excon

Hospitals send homeless to new after-care program | hospital, bushay, patients - Life - The Orange County Register (http://www.ocregister.com/articles/hospital-241433-bushay-patients.html)

Hospitals send homeless to new after-care programHello again, dad:

Yes, there ARE programs... Does that mean you don't see any homeless people in your city? You don't have any of 'em on your off ramps with signs begging for money? You don't see 'em sleeping in your library's and in your doorways? You think everybody in your city goes to sleep at night with a full stomach? You don't think there are poor people without health care in your city?

Is THAT what you're inferring by linking me to the article? I don't know about you, but even after reading the article, I'm not convinced... That's because, I believe my lying eyes.

excon

Hello again, dad:

Yes, there ARE programs... Does that mean you don't see any homeless people in your city? You don't have any of 'em on your off ramps with signs begging for money? You don't see 'em sleeping in your library's and in your doorways? You think everybody in your city goes to sleep at night with a full stomach? You don't think there are poor people without health care in your city?

Is THAT what you're inferring by linking me to the article? I dunno about you, but even after reading the article, I'm not convinced... That's because, I believe my lying eyes.

excon

For shame. I thought you would find it interesting reading. It had bits about both sides including patient dumping etc. It seems to be more real world then a lot of hit pieces. And no there aren't homeless where I live. Heck there are more animals then people.. lol.

Hospitals send homeless to new after-care program | hospital, bushay, patients - Life - The Orange County Register (http://www.ocregister.com/articles/hospital-241433-bushay-patients.html)

Mmm, maybe Toronto's homeless (and some of them disabled) should come down there. Queen sized beds, TV, ultimate food experience. We have soup kitchens in Toronto and the hospices are full, but they do get cots to sleep on, and 3 meals a day, but I don't think TVs to watch, unless there is a common room in the Scot's mission.

Tick

A bunch of Canadian Liberal Party thinkers got togther to discuss various issues ....a "thinkers conference" . One of the issues they discussed was the state of the national health care program .

The solution to the myriad of problems facing their system ? Well;according to reporting in the 'Montreal Gazette :


Carbon tax a hot topic at Liberals' conference (http://www.montrealgazette.com/business/Carbon%20topic%20Liberals%20conference/2735249/story.html)

Ah yes ....new taxes aint it always the way ? Maybe they should listen instead to President Obama who swears that his "magic solution" will cut taxes and reduce the deficit.

Here we go again, you know I am in healthcare and I don't see a problem and I haven't got blinkers on. I take care of seniors in their homes because, if they can live in their homes, nursing homes is not an option for them. I drive them to appointments and I don't see any wait lists for chemo in Kingston or Oshawa, two of the biggest cancer centres in my area. MRIs, hey, no problem, just walk in, catscans, the same. Dialysis three times a week for clients who are pretty badly off with kidney failure, no problem.

So why don't you listen toto the (oops) common people when they say there is no problem with the Canadian healthcare system.

Montreal Gazette, gosh, that article wasn't in the Toronto Star.

Tick

Black is white and white is black... I don't know about you, but in MY city, I see homeless people. I see hungry people. I see sick people...

I read tom's post and didn't see any denial of that, just the mention that our safety net is designed for those needy, not the middle class. I know I've said it many times, if that's who we need to help then let's help them, but the Dems "social justice" as in Obamacare is and was never about helping those who need it (http://www.breitbart.tv/howard-dean-of-course-health-care-law-is-redistribution-of-wealth/).


The TRUTH is NOT in the possession of right wingers.


It darn sure isn't coming out from the other side (http://hotair.com/archives/2010/04/03/house-democrat-all-thats-missing-from-the-tea-party-are-the-robes-and-hoods/)...

Here we go again, you know I am in healthcare and I dont see a problem and I havent got blinkers on. I take care of seniors in their homes because, if they can live in their homes, nursing homes is not an option for them. I drive them to appointments and I dont see any wait lists for chemo in Kingston or Oshawa, two of the biggest cancer centres in my area. MRIs, hey, no problem, just walk in, catscans, the same. Dialysis three times a week for clients who are pretty badly off with kidney failure, no problem.

So why dont you listen toto the (oops) common people when they say there is no problem with the Canadian healthcare system.

Montreal Gazette, gosh, that article wasnt in the Toronto Star.

tick

Yes, working in health care myself.

Ex I stand by what I said. The fact that there are homless doesn't negate the fact that the services are there for them if they chose to use them .Maybe the issue is a poor public information system where they don't know what public services are available . Or perhaps they make the choice to stay out of the public housing for whatever reason .

So the bottom line is your argument that there are homeless is a strawman because I never said there weren't homeless. I say with the services /safety net available and an efficient distribution system that admittedly is not there , there need not be.

Where do you get this stuff from? You have been listening to insurance company propoganda. The government doesn't make life style choices for me, it supports whatever choice I make but it does endevour to have me make the right choice through information. I am probally personally paying for some wrong life style choices when I was younger but the government says nothing about that in it's approach to providing health care. Unlike your insurance companies it does not discriminate for pre-existing conditions.

The reality is you just don't get it because you live in a society which has a wrong idea of what freedom is really about. Freedom and Liberty is about every person having an equal opportunity to enjoy life to the fullest. Freedom isn't about every person doing his damnest to climb over the top of every other person.

When government taxes certain things and not other things, the government does influence your choices. Things like, gas, or cigarettes or alcohol. How about taxes on carbon usage or fat content in food - is this government allowing you freedom to make choices without the force or penalty of taxes? Is that type of government really about the freedom of its citizens?

Speaking of freedom, our society wants the freedom to do whatever they please but not the responsibility that comes with it. If individual A chooses to smoke and /or eat in excess, thus becoming obese, or does not exercise on a regular basis, they are free to do so but do they accept the responsibility of poor health and higher health insurance premiums that comes with those choices? Should individual B, who chooses to lead a healthy lifestyle, have to pay higher premiums in order to subsidize the freedom of individual B' poor health choices.

As to your last statement, I and most Americans would not characterize freedom that way. A certain, ahem liberal, ideology may.


G&P

Hello again, dad:

Yes, there ARE programs... Does that mean you don't see any homeless people in your city? You don't have any of 'em on your off ramps with signs begging for money? You don't see 'em sleeping in your library's and in your doorways? You think everybody in your city goes to sleep at night with a full stomach? You don't think there are poor people without health care in your city?

Is THAT what you're inferring by linking me to the article? I dunno about you, but even after reading the article, I'm not convinced... That's because, I believe my lying eyes.

excon


I do see these folks. I donate to Salvation Army, to God's Pantry, to church, to goodwill. I've bought food for those on the side of the road. In my line of work , healthcare, there is care that I give that I know I will not get paid for. I, my wife, my kids, we do those things because we see it and because of Matthew 25:40. I will not leave it solely to government to take care of the wrong things we see.



G&P

As to your last statement, I and most Americans would not characterize freedom that way. A certain, ahem liberal, ideology may.

G&P

What I said to you is that every person should have an equal opportunity to enjoy life to the fullest and you call this liberal ideology. I suspect it was the very basis of what americans hold so high, their revolution and constitution. I seriously think that after two hundred years some have lost sight of the original objective. What is implicit in my statement is the need to respect the rights of others in your society not trample them down and take advantage of them, because this denies them equal opportunity. I would rather have a "liberal" ideology than the selfish capitalist ideology of laizze faire. What we have found is the activities of some have to be regulated, and what do we find even in your own society equal opportunity had to be regulated into existence in order to exist and those who would exercise economic power to excess had to be restricted. I suspect you also regard this as a "liberal" ideology unsuited to an american society. In other words; let the minorities remain slaves and the exploiters and criminals rip every one off

What i said to you is that every person should have an equal opportunity to enjoy life to the fullest and you call this liberal ideology. I suspect it was the very basis of what americans hold so high, their revolution and constitution. I seriously think that after two hundred years some have lost sight of the original objective. What is implicit in my statement is the need to respect the rights of others in your society not trample them down and take advantage of them, because this denies them equal opportunity. I would rather have a "liberal" ideology than the selfish capitalist ideology of laizze faire. What we have found is the activities of some have to be regulated, and what do we find even in your own society equal opportunity had to be regulated into existence in order to exist and those who would exercise economic power to excess had to be restricted. I suspect you also regard this as a "liberal" ideology unsuited to an american society. In other words; let the minorities remain slaves and the exploiters and criminals rip every one off

Exactly

It does not matter what organization thinks what, what matters is what Canadians think.

It is not an insult it is the truth. There is a big difference.

If YOU are happy with it great (in fact I am glad you are getting what you consider sufficient service where you live) I do believe in getting what you pay for. But a lot of other Canadians aren't. Or they wouldn't be spending huge sums of cash to get services here in the USA they can't get in Canada, or can't wait for or don't want to wait for. And that is true among much of the border... not just in New York, and it's not just Quebec.

It may not be an option for those living far from our borders or lacking the money to take advantage of it. But those doctors here they come to are grateful for the extra income I'm sure, whatever their personal reason for coming.

smoothy, it isn't that they can't get the what they want in Canada, it's that they don't want to wait for what they can get. They also have to be quite wealthy to make that decision, and it usually is a life threatening condition such as heart disease that is putting them over the border. If you are wealthy and can make that instant decision, thenn that is your prerogrative to do so.

When we lived in the States and just started up our own business, just the two of us, we couldn't get health insurance and I had a baby. That was okay, $700 put me in delivery, no fetal monitors and I was 39. I was out the next day with my son. Then, at three he started having seizures, they thought he had meningitis. It cost my mom, from Canada, $5000 US to come bail him out at the hospital for two day stay. Back to Canada for sure and under OHIP coverage was all I wanted if he was going to have further problems.

Then at l7 he was diagnosed with a heart condition and now at 27 has a defibrillator, all covered by OHIP,

So I can't complain and I am just a normal healthy Canadian who hopefully will not have to scrape money together to get a quicky operation in the US.

My point is smooth, I know for a fact that the only Canadians who have surgery across the border can afford to do so, but then on the other hand, there are some procedures that OHIP will cover for them in the U.S. So it's a win win situation.

Tick

See, that's part of my point... if it's a serious or life threatening situation, WHY are they making you wait? That's EXACTLY when you need treatment, and you need it now.

Here you would get it, NOW. Even if you had no insurance at all.

I'm not saying its cheap, paying cash... and not all of them ARE rich. Many are using savings to pay for it, and are willing to do it because HERE they CAN get it, while at home in Canada they are told to wait months they may not survice. Or that will seal their fate, Cancer being a perfect example of waiting sealing your fate, even if immediate death right that moment might not be. Beating cancer is mostly about finding it fast, treating it quickly and aggressively.

Wait months and it grows even worse, maybe metastisizing from something easily treatible, to something untreatible... I.E. Stage 4 cancer.

That's not the only case... just one example of where time is everything.


I'm not arguing the Canadian system is essentually worthless...

What I am arguing is that its seriously lacking when people are in the most dire need of care in a timely fashion.

I have to disagree. That if it is emergency situation that it will be taken care of. You do not have to wait for emergency surgery at all. That is a crock...

If it is life threatening then it is taken care of right away. There would be no time to go to the states. It is the non emergency surgery that will send people else where if they want it.

I have to disagree. That if it is emergency situation that it will be taken care of. You do not have to wait for emergency surgery at all. That is a crock...

If it is life threatening then it is taken care of right away. There would be no time to go to the states. It is the non emergency surgery that will send people else where if they want it.My wife's aunt had to wait 4 months to have surgery for diverticulitis in Canada... she was in so much discomfort she was bedridden for that time... at HOME no less.

While she was a citizen of Canada... she wasn't native born... and she was over 60, so not of any real value to the Canadian Goverments eyes.

That's not a crock... that is reality. And Diverticulitis can very well be a fatal condition... PARTICULARLY when it is causing problems that severe.

Yeah many people live with it years, but none suffer like THAT without being allowed needed surgery except in Canada. You might be operated on by an incompetent Dr. for that in Italy... but you wouldn't have to wait months for it. And yes... my father in law died of complecations and misdiagnossis, and 5 surgeries in 3 months... the last 4 in 3 weeks time. If it was in the USA... it would be Malpractice... but with socialized Medicine... its exceptionally hard to file suit much less provide enough proof to win when THEY can make the evidence disappear.

He did actually have it... they misdiagnosed it until it became an intestinal blockage and more severe.

Those are examples of my actual relatives that had problems... not news stories or claims by third parties unrelated to the patient.


And we are NOT comparing small remote towns in the Northern Territories to USA major cities. That would be unfair.

Montreal is not a small town. Nor is the City in Italy I also referred to as examples.

You keep bringing up montreal.. Montreal is not the whole country of canada.

You keep bringing up montreal.. Montreal is not the whole country of canada.

Montreal is part of Canada... NOT the USA. And its NOT the worst, or poorest city in Canada. I honestly have no idea who holds title to that distinction, though I am curious who does.

Yeah I do understand the animosity other parts of Canada may have with Quebec... yeah we did hear about them wanting to secede and all.

But hey... we don't think much of Camden , NJ but we are stuck with it too. Same with Sanfrancisco... most of the USA thinks its populated by fruits and loons... and until it slides into the Ocean its part of the USA. (I'm not holding my breath waiting for that to happen).

[QUOTE=smoothy;2302704)

While she was a citizen of Canada...she wasn't native born...and she was over 60, so not of any real value to the Canadian Goverments eyes.


[/QUOTE]

That's a hard statement to make. As soon as immigrants arrive in Canada, they are GIVEN HEALTHCARE BENEFITS even before they become citizens. I know this isn't your point, but smoothy, if she paid her taxes, whether she was an immigrant or not had nothing to do with real value. What the heck does that mean ? Are you saying because she was over 60, but wasn't born in Canada, then the government thought she was worthless? I don't think so.

Canada is a pretty wide country, smoothy, we have cities which are thousands of miles away from each other between Ontario and British Columbia, not all medical centres are furnished the right way or have proper funding. We are lucky in the eastern Provinces, which I think are the richest, to have state of the art hospitals, state of the art children's hospitals, well equipped cancer centres.

Before you start casting stones, why don't you stop readingthe propaganda and drivel and come up and explore these options yourself. Most of you can sit down there on your computers and site articles written by people not qualified to even talk about healthcare. They are a drop in the bucket.

tick

Thats a hard statement to make. As soon as immigrants arrive in Canada, they are GIVEN HEALTHCARE BENEFITS even before they become citizens. I know this isnt your point, but smoothy, if she paid her taxes, whether or not she was an immigrant or not had nothing to do with real value. What the heck does that mean ? Are you saying because she was over 60, but wasnt born in Canada, then the government thought she was worthless? I dont think so.

Canada is a pretty wide country, smoothy, we have cities which are thousands of miles away from each other between Ontario and British Columbia, not all medical centres are furnished the right way or have proper funding. We are lucky in the eastern Provinces, which I think are the richest, to have state of the art hospitals, state of the art children's hospitals, well equipped cancer centres.

Before you start casting stones, why dont you stop readingthe propaganda and drivel and come up and explore these options yourself. Most of you can sit down there on your computers and site articles written by people not qualified to even talk about healthcare. They are a drop in the bucket.

tick

My point is when you have someone other than your doctor, deciding who gets what and if they even get it (because they will allow X number of procedures that year)... someone gets screwed. They prioratize who gets the limited resources and who gets screwed. And someone will when demand excedes ability to deliver. Which Obviously is the case if there is ever a waiting list.

Obviously an elderly immigrant housewife and widow is less important than a much younger Natural Born Canadian who has the right party affiliations.

That's how the world works... and Canada isn't exempt from it, and it does happen anyplace anything is rationed anywhere.

So my wife's aunt is now an Anti-Canadian propagandist?

Care to extablish a little proof of that? Because actually I know her in real life, and she has NO reason to lie or exagerite... its not in her nature. And if she wanted to leave Canada sho would... she does hold more than a Canadian Passport, just not an American one. She stays because her family is all there.

You like everyone else on this thread however I know only from this site. You could really be the Canadian Prime Minister in real life... or anyone else with an internet connection. Not a swipe... but on one hand, real person I know, other hand, someone on a computer telling me something different than people I know say as well as other sources who are NOT anti-Canadian.

And No... I am not Anti-Canadian.

.





So my wifes aunt is now an Anti-Canadian propagandist?

Care to extablish a little proof of that? Because actually I know her in real life, and she has NO reason to lie or exagerite...its not in her nature. And if she wanted to leave Canada sho would....she does hold more than a Canadian Passport, just not an American one. She stays because her family is all there.

.

So where did I say this ? Is that what you got out of what I said. You are putting words in my mouth that weren't there and turning it around to say that I think she is a propagandist? I don't ever hear words like that where I come from. She is younger then me. I am third generation Canadian. Sixty eight this year and working passed retirement. And she probably worked hard all her life too.So why would I say she was anything different in this world we live in then me?

Tick

so where did I say this ? Is that what you got out of what I said. You are putting words in my mouth that werent there and turning it around
That's why that person is on my ignore list.

That's why that person is on my ignore list.I think I might follow your suit. I have no idea why our system is of their concern, or why I am defending it.

Tick

Conversely Canadians on this board are very free with their opinion /critique of our system... and that goes well beyond our healthcare .

so where did I say this ? Is that what you got out of what I said. You are putting words in my mouth that werent there and turning it around to say that I think she is a propagandist? I dont ever hear words like that where I come from. She is younger then me. I am third generation Canadian. Sixty eight this year and working passed retirement. And she probably worked hard all her life too.So why would I say she was anything different in this world we live in then me?

tickLast paragraph of post #102 by you. I got this information directly FROM my Canadian in-laws... so if that's reading propaganda, then that would make them propagandists by your own words. I trust what THEY say more than what any newspaper might write. Newspapers are highly biased to the reporters and editors beliefs, and do frequently fabricate stories to push an agenda.

The Washington Post, and New York Times have both been caught doing that... and for TV news... Dan Rather at CBS was caught doing it as well. No I can't provide Canadian equivalents... that news would rarely make it this far south.

Individuals are more direct and honest about their experience. Years of personal direct experience has shown me that.

And for those praising the Canadian health system... exactly how many of you have had experience with ANY system (and where was it) that doesn't establish quotas or rationing of any sort in recent years.

If I need something here... I never wait more than a few days for an appointment to get that test... and that's working around MY schedule, I could usually get those within 24 hours of my doctors request, if I was more flexible. And only because they don't do them in-house.

I do get to see a doctor the day I request it when I have any concerned.

I've had surgeries the day of the injury... and in less pressing cases within several days.

The only waiting lists we have in the USA is for organ transplants. Because obviously demand far excedes supply by donors. Not one artificially created by some accountants budget.


And no.. the insurance carrier does not say... we can only provide X number of that procedure this month... you have to go on a waiting list for next month. The lawyers and courts would have a field day if they did. And rightfully so.


Do I think OUR system is perfect? No, there is always room for improvement... but I think it is far better than the Canadian System, or the European system. I'd rather be in a hospital here than anywhere in Canada or Europe. Because I know I'd get treated right away rather than have to find out if they are allowed to do more of that procedure now or I have to wait to get it. Or that they will do it the cheaper way, rather than the better way (sometimes those are the same... others they are not).

There is very little chance I might ever end up in a Canadian hospital... but I spend enough time in Europe that risk is very real.

last paragraph of post #102 by you. I got this information directly from my canadian in-laws....so if thats reading propaganda, then that would make them propagandists by your own words. I trust what they say more than what any newspaper might write. Newspapers are highly biased to the reporters and editors beliefs, and do frequently fabricate stories to push an agenda.

The washington post, and new york times have both been caught doing that.....and for tv news....dan rather at cbs was caught doing it as well. No i can't provide canadian equivalents...that news would rarely make it this far south.

Individuals are more direct and honest about their experience. Years of personal direct experience has shown me that.

And for those praising the canadian health system.....exactly how many of you have had experience with any system (and where was it) that doesn't establish quotas or rationing of any sort in recent years. there is no rationing or quotas.

if i need something here....i never wait more than a few days for an appointment to get that test...and thats working around my schedule, i could usually get those within 24 hours of my doctors request, if i was more flexible. And only because they don't do them in-house.

I do get to see a doctor the day i request it when i have any concerned. me too, imagine that.

i've had surgeries the day of the injury...and in less pressing cases within several days.

The only waiting lists we have in the usa is for organ transplants. Because obviously demand far excedes supply by donors. Not one artificially created by some accountants budget. not artificially created here either.


and no..the insurance carrier does not say....we can only provide x number of that procedure this month...you have to go on a waiting list for next month. The lawyers and courts would have a field day if they did. And rightfully so. that does not happen here.


do i think our system is perfect? No, there is always room for improvement.....but i think it is far better than the canadian system, or the european system. I'd rather be in a hospital here than anywhere in canada or europe. Because i know i'd get treated right away rather than have to find out if they are allowed to do more of that procedure now or i have to wait to get it. Or that they will do it the cheaper way, rather than the better way (sometimes those are the same...others they are not). not true.

there is very little chance i might ever end up in a canadian hospital.....but i spend enough time in europe that risk is very real. thank God i live in canada.

thank God i live in canada.

And all I can Say is thank God I live in the USA.

As long as we are happy with what we got and where we live...

I have a GROUP of people that will contest your claims, My In-laws are a big family, all of whom grew up and have their own families and kids now as well. Who have remained in Canada, for now...

Funny how their experience just happens to match fairly closely what is reported about the system. OUTSIDE the Canadian media.

People in North Korea and Burma are Happy with what they have. Because that's all they know. No Canada is NOT equal to North Korea or Burma in any way, but if they can be happy, its not hard to understand how Canadians can be happy with their Health Care system, if that's all they have known.

And for those who DO like it and live there... great, you are happy with it... I'm happy for you. I however do not want to trade what I have for that.

It is not all I know. All my fathers side of the family live in the united states. They are all American. Go figure. Your family lives in Montreal. Canada is a lot bigger then Montreal. I have lived all across our Great country... our country is really big. So to compare the whole country because of one city... Well does not make sense. I can base all my stories on things I have heard from my own family living in the states. That is the same you do with your family based in canada.

Hmmm...

It is not all I know. All my fathers side of the family live in the united states. They are all American. Go figure. Your family lives in Montreal. Canada is a lot bigger then Montreal. I have lived all across our Great country... our country is really big. So to compare the whole country because of one city... Well does not make sense. I can base all my stories on things I have heard from my own family living in the states. That is the same you do with your family based in canada.

Hmmm....I will take the word of people I know personally, because I will know their character. And they aren't ALL in Montreal (but most are, and that isn't the only place they have lived.

And if there are no quotas, not waiting lists and the system is so absolutely perfect, WHY are so many Canadians spending their money for medial procedures and testing in the USA? Its not only the Wealthy.. and besides, why take the time, cost and effort to travel to another country if you can get the same care for free in your own? Wealthy people don't get that way by throwing all their money away on stupid things. I know several multimillionares. And while they buy nice stuff, "Tight" would be a good description of how they are with money.

They won't fly to Paris to pay three times as much for Levis jeans they can buy in town for a fraction. And they won't go to a different country to pay for something that's no better than they would get for free at home. Its not just poor people that are value concience. And I have no reason to believe Canadians are any different.

Like I said... You might be happy with your system, and that's what matters to you, I accept that. You don't have a lot of choice unless you are willing to go south and pay for it.

But quotas and waiting lists for many Canadians are well documented as they are in the UK system as well. Sure some people are happy and never get caught up in them... but quite a few do.

And here... being told sorry, our budget says you have to wait for "X"... means a lawsuit for that provider or insurance company is a done deal.

And do not confuse being denied a treatment that's not deamed needed or effective... I am talking procedures that are very real and needed and being told... you can have this... but you have to wait for "X" number of months before you can have it done.

And nobody has yet explained Why the Canadian Premier would pay to fly HERE for heart surgery if the Canadian system was so perfect? And that he would have been covered in, or should have been in any case.

Quotes from them...
Allowing his words to speak as loudly as his actions, Danny Williams, who is said to be recovering in Miami from his surgery (which according to this story took longer than expected), had explained his decision simply: "This was my heart, my choice and my health."

"I did not sign away my right to get the best possible health care for myself when I entered politics," Williams said.

Paraphrased from.. http://voices.washingtonpost.com/checkup/2010/02/canadian_premier_has_heart_sur.html

whom nobody can claim is a right wing newspaper.

And if there are no quotas, not waiting lists and the system is so absolutely perfect, WHY are so many Canadians spending their money for medial procedures and testing in the USA?
a) no one ever said it was absolutely perfect, you said that. No system is perfect.
b) procedures done in the US are paid from our healthcare system, except for the ultra-rich who organize it themselves.

I am from Montreal, born there, spent 20 years there, parents and much family are still there. My mother had knee surgery and hip replacement in Mtl, I had no complaints in the way any of it was handled. Je peut même te parler en français si tu veux, je suis parfaitement bilingue.

a) no one ever said it was absolutely perfect, you said that. No system is perfect.
b) procedures done in the US are paid from our healthcare system, except for the ultra-rich who organize it themselves.

I am from Montreal, born there, spent 20 years there, parents and much family are still there. My mother had knee surgery and hip replacement in Mtl, I had no complaints in the way any of it was handled. Je peut même te parler en français si tu veux, je suis parfaitement bilingue.



And as you quoated in (a) I'm not claiming ours is perfect either... but quotas,, when issued, on ANYTHING, ALWAYS have a way of screwing the people who are NOT connected, while those with the right friends avoid them. That's a universal truth.

(b) Doctors HERE aren't being paid from the Canadian system. I called a friend in upstate New York and they asked their doctor. Its cash and carry.



And yes... I can still read enough French to know what you said... even if I've forgotten most of it over the years since I last used it. If I studied it a bit and got my proficiency back to at least conversational level... I could add that to the langauges I understand well. Which is more than one right now, depending on your definition of proficient... can be three, I'm fluent in Italian... while I can't respond in good spanish.. I do undertand spanish depending on the dialect and origin of the speaker, Understand written spanish fairly well, and get just enough Portuguese to get the drift of a coversation most times... Used to be fluent in french but didn't use it for over 25 years and forgot most of it. Honestly not sure how much I forgot and how much I remember of the French.


Not related to the Canadian system... but the lawmakers here so gung ho to ram this down our throats don't think much of it themselves... because they ALL exempted themselves from having to have it. THAT speaks volumes

a). Je peut même te parler en français si tu veux, je suis parfaitement bilingue.

Well, I guess that threw a small wrench into the mix. Lets see how he replies to this one. The only time I can see what he posted is when someone quotes him. That's fine with me !

Tick

I speak English and American

English and American, hmmm. I thought it was English and Spanish in the States. Nice try.

Well anyway, way off topic. Goodnight folks.

Done with the health care debate good luck to my family in the States and all the americans.

well, I guess that threw a small wrench into the mix. Lets see how he replies to this one. The only time I can see what he posted is when someone quotes him. Thats fine with me !

tickI consider the iggy bin to be for people not mature enough to grasp the concept their opinion isn't the only valid one.

I have nobody on ignore, never have and never will.

What is it you see young children do... "la la la..I can't hear you" with fingers in their ears? The iggy bin is the internet equivalent of doing that.