The FACTS are on my side, then and now.Hello again, Steve:

I agree with you, in the short term, you WON the talking points debate. In the longer term, however, we got what was WANTED and needed for generations. THOSE are the facts.

excon

Hello again, Steve:

I agree with you, in the short term, you WON the talking points debate. In the longer term, however, we got what was WANTED and needed for generations. THOSE are the facts.

Wanted by who?

Wanted by who?

The followers of Sol Alinsky, of course. These days they're called Progressives.

The followers of Sol Alinsky, of course. These days they're called Progressives.You mean this guy? Saul Alinsky - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saul_Alinsky)
How does he fit in to anything? 99% of the population have no idea who he is.

Wanted by who?Hello Steve:

I'm not talking specifically about THIS law, because THIS law isn't exactly what was wanted. It's a step in the right direction. But, even the wingers in congress said health care reform was wanted. I understand that this isn't the way they would have accomplished it. But, I also understand, that when they had a chance to accomplish it, they didn't even try.

Nonetheless, in terms of the idea of reforming health care, Obama ran on it, and won. Evidently SOME people wanted it.

excon

You mean this guy? Saul Alinsky - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saul_Alinsky)
How does he fit in to anything? 99% of the population have no idea who he is.Hello NK,

He's the guy, Glenn Beck says, that is the author of the left's guiding principles. Now, I never read him, but if he supports the Constitution like I support the Constitution, then he's my man.

excon

You mean this guy? Saul Alinsky - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saul_Alinsky)
How does he fit in to anything? 99% of the population have no idea who he is.

And 99% of the population has no idea of the radical legislation excon just got. Saul's blueprint Rules for Radicals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_for_Radicals) is his relevance.

Hello Cats:

I just read the link that NK posted. I see nothing dangerous about his thinking. Then I read the post that you linked me to. You're talking to a 60's radical here, so what I read seems rather mild to me. In fact, it kind of looks like what the tea partiers are doing.

excon

And 99% of the population has no idea of the radical legislation excon just got. Saul's blueprint Rules for Radicals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_for_Radicals) is his relevance.Nothing wrong there, what do you find so radical?

Hello again, smoothy:

So, the fire department owns it, and it pays for all that stuff. Really? Is THAT what you think? It doesn't dawn on you to ask who owns the fire department? The fact that you hold events to raise money for your department, doesn't clue you in that your community owns the fire department.

Now, the word "community" has no legal bearing, so I suggest that there's another entity that owns the fire department, and that's probably your county. But, that's ok. We don't have to identify the particular entity that's responsible for the bills. Identifying it as COMMUNITY owned is good enough for my argument.

That's because a COMMUNITY owned fire department is SOCIALISM at work on the local level. Now, because your community needs to have bake sales and bingo to pay for your fire department only means that the entity that owns it, like your county, is going broke. It doesn't change the fact that you pool your risk against fire. Pooling risk is Socialism.

Socialism WORKS for you and your community. That would be unless you tell me that your fire department and your police department are PRIVATELY owned. Because that's the ONLY alternative to community owned. There ain't no in between.

Again, smoothy my friend, I know you don't understand what I just said. It's ok.

excon

Socialism Steals from people who earn it to give to those who won't.

Socialism is never good for everyone, only good for the takers.

And these fire Departments ARE NOT owned by the community... in fact.. since you are unaware of it obviously. Most of America doesn't reside in an incorporated town or city. EVERY ONE of these Fire Departments I mentioned get everything they have without any tax money... the Fire Dpeartment owns its own equipment... no town, City or County.

Where in the hell to you get off thinking the community owns everything... or even has the right to.

IF the community owned it.. then the community would legally be required to pay wages... insurance... workmans comp... etc to every fireman.

ANd for those not in a town or city... exactly what right do any of those towns or cities have to lay claim to anything outside their limits?.

I'll tell you. None at all. And Incidentally... I am one of those multitudes who spent most of his life... NOT residing in any Town or City.

EVERY ONE of these Fire Departments I mentioned get everything they have without any tax money....the Fire Dpeartment owns its own equipment...no town, City or County. IF the community owned it..then the community would legally be required to pay wages....insurance...workmans comp...etc to every fireman.Hello again, smoothy:

You ARE a good tea partier. You have NO clue about government, taxes, the Constitution, how things work, or how to make them better. The only thing you know is what Fox News tells you.

I cannot continue to discuss these weighty issues with somebody who thinks the fire department owns itself.

excon

I cannot continue to discuss these weighty issues with somebody who thinks the fire department owns itself.



There's you mistake right there, ex, you think we are discussing weighty issues rather than any old BS that any one of us decides to spout.

What I have observed, whether it is there, or here, is that politics consists of running commentaries on the events of the day with weighty issues being buried as rapidly as possible behind a façade of look what we have done for you.
:D

There's you mistake right there, ex, you think we are discussing weighty issues Hello again, clete:

Some people are here to pass the time of day. I'm here to save the world.

excon

Hello again, clete:

Some people are here to pass the time of day. I'm here to save the world.

excon

Hey, Ex, I used to be Superman but I don't remember passing my mantle to you. To paraphase a famous saying let the world save the world.

But seriously no one listens to what we might think, we would have to fill our little blogs with forbidden words for it to even be read outside of this site, you know the words, ex, Jihad, Bomb, Target, Osama,.

Hello again, smoothy:

You ARE a good tea partier. You have NO clue about government, taxes, the Constitution, how things work, or how to make them better. The only thing you know is what Fox News tells you.

I cannot continue to discuss these weighty issues with somebody who thinks the fire department owns itself.

exconQuite full of yourself aren't you... ever get out of your liberal town into the real world?

I live in a city... my local fire department owns itself... it has its own mortgage on the firehouse and the property, it owns its own trucks... pays its own bills. The City doesn't pay it. THe City doesn't own it.

Just because the Collective owns you and everything in your town doesn't mean the rest of the world operates like that. It certaily doesn't in my part of the world.


And something else... No homeowners Collective (association) takes any money from me... or tells me what I can and can't do either on my property. I paint my house the collor I want... I plant whatever I feel like planting... and nobody can tell me otherwise.

I know NOT living in a communist Commune is a foreign concept to you... but give it a try.

Here is the perfect suggestion to add to the health care bill.

This is from a very real restaurant in PA... in my old stomping ground.

Hello again, smoothy:

You ARE a good tea partier. You spread the tea party lies. FOX News told you that you would go to jail if you didn't buy health insurance. It's a LIE. It ain't so. It ain't even close.

But, keep going cause I don't have anything else to do today except to put tea partiers in their places. You said it above. You can't fix stupid.

excon

Here is the perfect suggestion to add to the health care bill.

This is from a very real restaurant in PA.....in my old stomping ground.

Great idea, you could extend it to sending illegals to jail and then it will be a short step to incarcerate the entire nation, tell me, when you get there, where will you house them and who will look after them. Think on this though
According to the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS): "In 2008, over 7.3 million people were on probation, in jail or prison, or on parole at year-end — 3.2% of all U.S. adult residents or 1 in every 31 adults."[
So if I read the statistics right, the jail and courts system is already failing as an incentive to uphold the law so why would you think it might work for health care insurance evaders, or the unemployed

Hello again, smoothy:

You ARE a good tea partier. You spread the tea party lies. FOX News told you that you would go to jail if you didn't buy health insurance. It's a LIE. It ain't so. It ain't even close.

But, keep going cause I don't have anything else to do today except to put tea partiers in their places. You said it above. You can't fix stupid.

exconStay happy in your little fantasy world... because that's exactly what they have in that bill. I suppose you've actually read it...

Or are you like Nancy Pelosi... who never read a word of it?

Stay happy in your little fantasy world....because thats exactly what they have in that bill. I suppose you've actually read it....

Or are you like Nancy Pelosi....who never read a word of it?Ok then, provide proof that they will send you to jail since you've read it.

Great idea, you could extend it to sending illegals to jail and then it will be a short step to incarcerate the entire nation, tell me, when you get there, where will you house them and who will look after them. Think on this though
According to the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS): "In 2008, over 7.3 million people were on probation, in jail or prison, or on parole at year-end — 3.2% of all U.S. adult residents or 1 in every 31 adults."[
So if I read the statistics right, the jail and courts system is already failing as an incentive to uphold the law so why would you think it might work for health care insurance evaders, or the unemployed

What would I do... here is another suggestion... same people.

I have NO sympathy for the illegals. Nor the terrorist prisoners.

I'd do the same for both. Push them out over their own country. I am sick of the lazy bums ignoring OUR laws... wasting OUR tax dollars.

Hello again, smoothy:

Yeah, we're not done. The prisoners in Gitmo haven't been found guilty of ANYTHING. There's been no trials. Of the 600 that your man Cheney said were "the worst of the worst", 400 of 'em have been let go.

Now, you would murder the ones that are left. And you somehow think that makes you better than them. It doesn't.

excon

Hello again, smoothy:

Yeah, we're not done. The prisoners in Gitmo haven't been found guilty of ANYTHING. There's been no trials. Of the 600 that your man Cheney said were "the worst of the worst", 400 of 'em have been let go.

Now, you would murder the ones that are left. And you somehow think that makes you better than them. It doesn't.

excon

Boy you are full of it today.

Newsflash... they ARE terrorists... I suppose Osama Bin Laden hasn't been found guilty of anything either... nor have any other innocent terrorists that your Messiah Obama has been having killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. Gee... that Makes Obama a Murderer by your logic since none of them have been convicted of any crime.


Enemy Combatants are NOT entitled to a criminal trial... only left wing loons believe that.

I suppose all the Japanese that attacked peral Harbor were all innocent too, because YOU didn't give them a trial. Same with Adolf Hitler.


You have to live on the west coast... because NOBODY that lives near NYC or Washington DC... except for Moron in the whitehouse believes they are inncoent.

And its clear you were never a target of those TERRORISTS... which they are regardless of what YOU claim.

You must have voted for that lunatic and communist Nancy Pelosi... because not even New Yorkers are that out of touch with reality.

Smooth,
Still waiting for the health care bill text that says people will go to jail.

Sincerely,

NK.

smooth,
Still waiting for the health care bill text that says people will go to jail.

Sincerely,

NK.

He made the claim saying its not in there as a penalty... he has to provide the evidence that its not. I'm still waiting for THAT evidence.

THat Bill was a lefty bill after all... the lefties that support it should know where everything is and be able to back it up if its so damned good.

Hello again, smoothy:

I found an empty page. That's where it WOULD be if it was there, but it isn't. Want to see it?

excon

Hello again, smoothy:

I found an empty page. That's where it WOULD be if it was there, but it isn't. Wanna see it?

exconSo... you know every word that's in it... there is a penalty section for those NOT volunteering to get this wonderful piece of crap.

Post that section... you have essentually just stated there is no penalties for those who decide they don't want it, and its not on a blank page. Cut and paste is sufficient.

Here is what the health care law says about the penalty for not carrying insurance.

2) SPECIAL RULES.—Notwithstanding any other provision of law—
''(A) WAIVER OF CRIMINAL PENALTIES.— In the case of any failure by a taxpayer to timely pay any penalty imposed by this section, such taxpayer shall not be subject to any criminal prosecution or penalty with respect to such failure.
''(B) LIMITATIONS ON LIENS AND LEVIES.—The Secretary shall not—
''(I) file notice of lien with respect to any property of a taxpayer by reason of any failure to pay the penalty imposed by this section, or
''(ii) levy on any such property with respect to such failure.

Hello again, smoothy:

It's appropriate that you finally posted a billboard. That IS where you get your information. I can't argue with billboards or slogans. It ain't satisfying.

I've tried to teach you a few things, like who owns your fire department, but you ain't interested in learning. You're interested in spouting the latest slogan.

So, like many of our arguments, I'm going to end it here. Don't worry, I'll jump in here and there to point out your errors in the future. But, you won't get me involved into a "did so - did not" argument as this one has devolved into. That's what 4 year olds do.

excon

Post that section....you have essentually just stated there is no penalties for those who decide they don't want it, Hello again, smoothy:

Error. Error.

You said people will go to jail. We said they wouldn't. You said that means there is NO penalty. Can't argue with stupid.

Error. Error.

excon

Typical liberals... say anything you want... pretend you can twist everything around to suit whatever you want it to... like Bill Clinton and "it depends on what the definition of the word IS is."

You have no respect for the constitution as far as Americans rights... but want to give rights denied to Americans to Islamic Terrorists who don't even have green cards...

You believe in freedom of speech only when its you that have something to say, but wish to silence anyone who disagrees with you.

Funny how the same people Bashing Bush about dreamed up stuff a year and a half ago get so indignant when their Lord and saviour Obama is called out on his very real actions.


Example... Dan Rathers fabricated story about something that never happened so they falsified reports to back up the story they dreamed up.

But then... some Obama worshippers still believe it. Even If CBS has admitted it was a total fabrication.

^^
This is Smoothy skating around the fact that he was caught lying about the jail time for not paying health reform taxes by repeating the same old neo-con talking points. LOL!

Let me put this to rest . The Senate passed the Senate Finance Committee version of the bill which had language prohibiting jail time for health care "tax " delinquencies . This version was passed by the House and a follow up reconcilliation bill was also passed.

Unless I am mistaken ,the additional reconcilliation bill says that a maximum monthly penalty of $174 and No jail terms, no additional penalties, no property liens for non-payment. They're all EXPLICITLY PROHIBITED in the bill.

Yes the House version could've had them by omitting specific language prohibiting jail time . But the Senate settled that issue. They could not have passed it otherwise.

let me put this to rest .Thanks but I settled it a few posts before this.

Dingy Harry Reid informed us of the real value of Obamacare, it is the most important thing we've done for the world (http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/94191-reid-healthcare-law-is-the-most-important-thing-for-the-world).

Yes, securing freedom, rebuilding Europe after WWII, landing a man on the moon - all of these pale in comparison to forcing Americans to buy health insurance and bankrupting the country. The world surely can't live without Obamacare.

Reid is in legacy mode. I think he know's he's toast in November.

Reid is in legacy mode. I think he know's he's toast in November.Hello again, tom:

I guess we'll be paying our doctor in chickens (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZezfjWox5s) then.

excon

He's still toast (http://hotairpundit.blogspot.com/2010/04/nevada-senate-poll-harry-reid-loses.html) according to the polls. And what's wrong with bartering, it's actually big business in this country.

And what's wrong with bartering, it's actually big business in this country.Hello again, Steve:

It's a perfect right wing health care program. I'll bet she'll propose it too, cause she ain't backing down.

Seriously, though. Let me ask you this.. IF Obamacare is socialism, why doesn't the government, who just "took over" the health care system, simply tell the insurance companies to lower their premiums?

excon

Did you miss or just forget where I pointed out the Senate is taking up premium regulation since Obamacare failed to bend the cost curve? Maybe if they knew what was in the bill before voting on it they wouldn't still be fixing the most important thing this Senate has ever done for the world.

Bu the way, exactly what part of health care will the feds not have their hands on under Obamacare?

Did you miss or just forget where I pointed out the Senate is taking up premium regulation since Obamacare failed to bend the cost curve? Hello again, Steve:

Actually, it's YOU who missed my point. I see that the senate is taking up new regulation. Thanks for pointing it out. That's exactly why I asked you, if Obamacare IS socialism, and he really did "take over" health care, like you righty's said he did, the senate wouldn't have to do anything, right? Obama, tyrant that he is, could just TELL the insurance companies to reduce their premiums. No?

excon

Why don't you ask someone who's been calling it socialism and I'll stick to my own arguments.

^^
This is Smoothy skating around the fact that he was caught lying about the jail time for not paying health reform taxes by repeating the same old neo-con talking points. LOL!

Go pound salt...

Did you even read the bill, with all the crap its loaded with...

The IRS will be the enforcer... and we all know when the IRS is involved... your right to be presumed innocent goes right out the window. Which the Democrats are fine with as long as THEY aren't the one on the objecting end of whatever the issue might be.

Hello again, tom:

I guess we'll be paying our doctor in chickens (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZezfjWox5s) then.

excon

Actually I love bartering... when you are able to to it, its great. It's the last great way to avoid giving the blood suckers (local, state or federal) a cut of your hard earned money (or property).

Actually I love bartering...Hello again, smoothy:

Me too. But, I'd have to give my doctor 347 chickens for my colonoscopy. I ain't got that many.

excon

Hello again, smoothy:

Me too. But, I'd have to give my doctor 347 chickens for my colonoscopy. I ain't got that many.

exconBetter get busy breeding them. The way Obamas spending money and driving down the dollars value in the world... it will be easier to carry those chickens than carry enough cash to pay for it, which will not be worth the paper its printed on at this rate. Think about the Iraqi Dinar, and the Italian Lira before the devaluation post war as two examples.


Cash can be tracked (if you use a bank at all)... stuff can't, unless its stuff like cars that are registered and have serial numbers.

Not practical to hide everything from the man... but its great to hide as much as you are able from the taxing authorities.

Pelosi's prophetic words are still coming true, Cato has revealed another ugly mandate in Obamacare (http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2010/04/26/costly-irs-mandate-slipped-into-health-bill/).


Most people know about the individual mandate in the new health care bill, but the bill contained another mandate that could be far more costly.

A few wording changes to the tax code’s section 6041 regarding 1099 reporting were slipped into the 2000-page health legislation. The changes will force millions of businesses to issue hundreds of millions, perhaps billions, of additional IRS Form 1099s every year. It appears to be a costly, anti-business nightmare.

Under current law, businesses are required to issue 1099s in a limited set of situations, such as when paying outside consultants. The health care bill includes a vast expansion in this information reporting requirement in an attempt to raise revenue for an increasingly rapacious Congress.

In a recent summary, tax information firm RIA notes the types of transactions covered by the new 1099 rules:


The 2010 Health Care Act adds “amounts in consideration for property” (Code Sec. 6041(a) as amended by 2010 Health Care Act §9006(b)(1)) and “gross proceeds” (Code Sec. 6041(a) as amended by 2010 Health Care Act §9006(b)(2)) to the pre-2010 Health Care Act categories of payments for which an information return to IRS will be required if the $600 aggregate payment threshold is met in a tax year for any one payee. Thus, Congress says that for payments made after 2011, the term “payments” includes gross proceeds paid in consideration for property or services.

Basically, businesses will have to issue 1099s whenever they do more than $600 of business with another entity in a year. For the $14 trillion U.S. economy, that’s a hell of a lot of 1099s. When a business buys a $1,000 used car, it will have to gather information on the seller and mail 1099s to the seller and the IRS. When a small shop owner pays her rent, she will have to send a 1099 to the landlord and IRS. Recipients of the vast flood of these forms will have to match them with existing accounting records. There will be huge numbers of errors and mismatches, which will probably generate many costly battles with the IRS.

Tax CPA Chris Hesse of LeMaster Daniels tells me:


Under the health legislation, the IRS could be receiving billions of more documents. Under current law, businesses send Forms 1099 for payments of rent, interest, dividends, and non-employee services when such payments are to entities other than corporations. Under the new law, businesses will be required to send a 1099 to other businesses for virtually all purchases. And for the first time, 1099s are to be sent to corporations. This is a huge new imposition on American business, costing the private economy much more than any additional tax that the IRS might collect as a result.

There appears to have been little discussion before this damaging mandate was slipped into the health bill and rammed through Congress, but a few business groups did raise concerns. Here’s what the Air Conditioner Contractors of America said:


The House bill would extend the Form 1099 filing requirement to ALL vendors (including corporate) to which they pay more than $600 annually for services or property. Consider all the payments a small business makes in the course of business, paying for things such as computers, software, office supplies, and fuel to services, including janitorial services, coffee services, and package delivery services.


In order to file all these 1099s, you’ll need to collect the necessary information from all your service providers. In order to comply with the law, you would have to get a Taxpayer Information Number or TIN from the business. If the vendor does not supply you with a TIN, you are obligated to withhold on your payments.

Private transactions are the core of a market economy, and the source of America’s growth and prosperity. Now the federal government is imposing a vast new web of red tape on perhaps billions of these growth-generating private exchanges.

For what purpose? So the spendthrift Congress can shake a few extra bucks out of private industry? The business sector is the generator of America’s high living standards, but most federal legislators just see it as a kitty to be raided or a cow to be milked dry.

I’m stunned that there wasn’t a broader debate before such a costly mandate was enacted. If it goes into effect, it will waste vast quantities of human effort in filling out forms, reworking computer systems, collecting and organizing data, and fighting the IRS. The struggling American economy can’t afford anymore suffocating tax regulations. This mandate is a giant deadweight loss. It should be repealed.

Ok, what clueless, anti-business moron slipped that one in? I suppose that's another reason we'll need those 17,000 new IRS agents, to process the billions of new forms received every year. Perhaps if we still had anyone doing investigative journalism on something besides Tea Partiers we might have known this BEFORE the vote. This is a nightmare.

But Obama is the Lord and Saviour... he never ever tells a lie... just ask any democrat.

Pelosi's prophetic words are still coming true, Cato has revealed another ugly mandate in Obamacare (http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2010/04/26/costly-irs-mandate-slipped-into-health-bill/).



Ok, what clueless, anti-business moron slipped that one in? I suppose that's another reason we'll need those 17,000 new IRS agents, to process the billions of new forms received every year. Perhaps if we still had anyone doing investigative journalism on something besides Tea Partiers we might have known this BEFORE the vote. This is a nightmare.

Certainly sounds like a nightmare, we used to have that sort of paperwarfare here under our old sales tax legislation but we solved it with a next tax on everything and did away with the paperwork. There are smarter ways to both do business and collect revenue when you are not stuck in a time warp but you have to hand it to them what a brilliant employment creation program now all you have to do is legalise immigration and put them to work shuffling forms