I have some question/comments on Child masturbation.
I was shocked a few days ago when I walked in to my adopted daughters room to ask her a question and was greeted with pjs off and hands very busy in the nether regions. This totally throw me for the biggest loop of my life. I know she has had 6 very messed up years. She started living with us at the age of 6. I always wondered why she had the heavy covers on her in the middle of summer and why she just seemed like a very sweaty sleeper. I now have my answer but in my upbringing, the only time that portion of your body is to be touched is to clean it and wipe after going bathroom at least until you marry. Speaking about sex makes me uncomfortable and now this going on under my roof is even more disturbing. I do not understand how a child masturbating can be accepted as a society norm. We already know that she may never develop a sense of right and wrong or be able to distinguish between them. She has been in counseling for over 2 yrs and we do not see any significant positives from it yet. She is self destructive defiant and becoming very verbally abusive to my biological children. She has had many problems at school throwing things to actually threatening the life of one child with scissors to the child throat and even physically hitting staff.
What can be done to help her? We are begging for some answers. Should we seek new a psychiatrist and counselor?

How old is your adopted daughter ?

As for masturbation, young men masturbate and no one finds anything wrong with it; adult men masturbate. At least you won't have to worry about her becoming pregnant for the time being.

She does sound to be out of control though, but I don't think masturbating has anything to do with that.

If counselling hasn't helped then you have to seek a better source such as pyschological counsellling.

Tick

First, have you discussed this with her therapist? How can you suggest that she needs a change if you haven't done so? If you are concerned about the lack of progress have you discussed that with the therapist? From what you have said, this is a troubled girl who may need years of therapy.

Second, I think you need some counseling. Your attitude towards child masturbation is so 1950s. You need to change that attitude and your general comfort level about discussing sex before you traumatize your other children and send them to therapy.

You really left out some very important details. Like your adopted daughter's age and some details about why she is the way she is.

As you can note, yes, children developing sexual habits, TV shows showing increased sexual use, just read the numbers of children 12 and younger having sex on a regular bases.

Yes society has accepted children being sexual and if you try to go against the flow of society you are called names.

If you have "old fashion" morals and values you are considered wrong now a days.

First off, I stand strong, tall and proud of my morals. I am not going to apologize for my view on sex. I am opened minded to almost anything. But child masturbation being normal? NO I never did it, my kids never did it. I spoke with my brothers and sisters and none of their kids ever did it that they know off. They are very liberal with they children.
Second, Television in our home is strictly censored. It does not matter what a persons stance is on something anymore, everyone is wrong to someone.
Third, She is the youngest at 9 yrs. My children have high self esteem and seem to be secure in who they are, what they wish to do with their lives. They have promised God to not have sex till they are wed.
Her life has been a war. I realize that it may take years of therapy. My husband and I have spoken on several occasions with the therapist and the Dr on the lack of progress. Nothing changes and their only response is to give it time. She lost her brother when she was 3. They were taken away from their mom for neglect. Her brother and her were split. Although I did run in to his adopted mom and she would like to set up some time for them to be together but he also has the same problem. But his only is when his sister is around. Her stipulations are that they will not see each other until they are both mentally stable. The family they were removed from has many mental instabilities. Everything from schizophrenia and bipolar to aspbergers and other forms of autism to physical, mental and sexual abuse. So as you can see, this not just a simple undertaking. To top it all off, her IQ is off the chart. I just keep wondering if there is any one out there that is better equipped to handle the counseling then where we are at right now.

I think may help you all understand me a bit better.
I was raised in a strict Catholic family and I have Aunts and great Aunts That are nuns.

First, there is a big difference between morals and acknowledging natural behaviors. I'm not saying you should give up your morals, but if you think that masturbation in children is abnormal then you are in for a rude surprise. I suggest you do some research on this issue.

I'm not going to say you aren't being truthful that you never did it, because I believe you truly believe that. However, especially for girls, this is very common. For girls, the act of "wiping" is usually how they learn that touching that way can be stimulating. With boys its more word of mouth since the action is not as natural. So I suspect that you have experimented when you were very young but have repressed the memory.

I also wonder if you really believe that, with your repressed sexuality and strict households your kids are actually going to be honest with you about this? I'm sure your kids have decided to save sex for being wed, just as I'm sure that they mean with another partner.

But that is neither here nor there. I would suggest that you ask for a copy of this girl's medical records and take them to another therapist and ask if they think that she is getting the proper treatment.

I think may help you all understand me a bit better.
I was raised in a strict Catholic family and I have Aunts and great Aunts That are nuns.

You know I would have bet on that!

I respect your Catholic views. I too am Catholic and understand what the expectations of the Church are.

But it is a very normal thing for kids to explore their bodies, and do the things that feel good.

But 9 years old is young to be doing it.

Yes, it is a "sin" in the eyes of God, as you have been taught. But we are not perfect, and puberty is a confusing time.

And as far as the other children that you mentioned, how can you be so sure that none of them were not doing "self gratification"? No offense, but odds are that someone else was doing it.

It is very common, yet not admitted to by all that do it. Probably a top confession, however.

I know that this is upsetting for you.
Hopefully someone will help her with her past.

God bless you both.

I have to agree with JMJ here. I too am Catholic, however, I have had Child Development and Child Psychology classes. This is very common and rarely do the children tell their parents as they are embarrassed.

Exploration of their bodies is normal and natural. Although we are taught it is a sin, children do this and it is very natural. It is all part of the growth process.

jmjoseph agrees: I agree, yet wonder why girls and women were excluded. Oversight? Don't be shy tick.

Me shy, JM ? Don't think so if you read my responses to people asking about sexuality. I probably didn't mention girls and women because I assumed it was a given. I can clearly remember me exploring my body when I was five. . It is a way of touching and knowing and learning what sexuality was all about.

That was in the 40s, JM, when one's own sexual behavior was not discussed, one didn't hear their parents discussing sex and absolutely you were lucky if your mom told you about menstruation.

So, no, JM, tick is not shy. Tick went full speed ahead without asking questions and learned all the good parts first.

Tick

Thank you all. I just wish I knew where to find her some indepth help. As for her medical record... The guardian (who was he biological aunt, why in the world would a court put a child that had been removed for neglect, in the care of a woman who had two, children removed from her care for gross neglect and abuse?) The aunt would not tell us who her doctor was but we had tracked it down and it seems that she only went to the dr a few times while in the care of her aunt. There are times when I watch the news and just want to shut the world out so my kids will not see how hateful this world has become but yet I know its not practical. But the wish that the worlds people can just live in peace and harmony is still there.
As the time has gone by that she has been with us, I see how she was never taught the basics of living. She still struggles to get dressed and not rip her clothes in the process, she would go through one toothbrush a week(she chewed them to clean her teeth), she did not even know how to wipe her behind. Heck, she had never been to the dentist even. If everything she has said about her life is true, the aunt and uncle that had her, should be in prison. She suffered from failure to thrive when she came her and is still small for her age. I used to have infinite patience but there are times when I find myself having to check the frustration I feel.

I'm a Lutheran preacher's kid and grew up with all of the same restrictions and warnings you did. We knew our parents loved us and we did not feel repressed, but did those restrictions keep us from exploring our bodies? No. Even babies and toddlers will touch themselves in places that their parents frown on. Why? Because the little ones don't understand there is a difference between pleasure while stroking an arm and pleasure while stoking private parts. Pleasure is pleasure. They do it because it feels good.

God put that sensitivity there for a good reason, to encourage us to enjoy nudity and sex, and to be eventually interested in adding to the human race.

I'm wondering if your adopted daughter has been sexually touched by an older child or an adult, so that she wants to continue for herself the pleasure that someone improperly gave her. Yes, sexual abuse can give pleasure to the abused child and changes how that child forever after thinks about sex and sexual pleasure.

Thank you all. I just wish I knew where to find her some indepth help.
Would you be willing to give us a general idea of where you live? I'm a professional counselor and might be able to direct you a bit.

If that's no good, please go to the reference department at your local public library. One of the reference librarians should have available a directory for your county or township or area listing social services and child psychologists and child management specialists. The last one is what you really need to find.

Or if there is a college or university near you, that may have a psychology department that offers clinical services to the community.

Or call Catholic Charities in your area or Lutheran Social Services to get a social worker to advocate for your daughter.

Since our health insurance does not pay for mental, the state of Michigan picks up the tab since our income is low but not low enough to get any other help from them. Lol It's the community mental health dept that referred us to Bethany Christian. We started with home based but there was just too many distractions and we felt that she may feel freer to talk in the private setting. I totally agree that she may have been sexually abused. My 14 yr old was being groomed by her father who was just released from prison so she clammed up again. She also goes to Bethany but she does not seem happy with her therapist. Now her dr there, is more then willing to try different meds but our 9 yr olds is very reluctant.
I had a conversation one time in a grocery store of all places. This woman was trying to decide what to make for dinner and I made a suggestion and our conversation just skyrocketed from there. It turns out she is a psychiatrist. She feels that my 9 yr old had basically locked herself behind a wall and can not see the light at the end of the tunnel. So to speak. She had never went through the state for payment before but is willing to do it for my child. I have not tried catholic social services, never really thought about them but will give them a call Monday. Thank you.
You know now that I really think about it and remember back, I did do the curiosity of having to see a male and do remember touching myself on one occasion but then I felt extremely shameful. Right now, sex is almost nonexistent between my husband and I because our bedroom shares a wall with my 19 yr old and grandson. Honestly, I can't wait for her to graduate and get an apartment. Love them but I struggle to not do the parenting with him. It would not be good for me to do it.

Are you in Easter Michigan or Western? I may have a suggestion for you.

Gr

Well, now, my old stomping grounds!! I graduated from FHC and lived in Ada!

Have you tried Pine Rest? They have, or had, a wonderful children's program. Inpatient AND outpatient.

You know now that i really think about it and remember back, I did do the curiosity of having to see a male and do remember touching myself on one occasion but then I felt extremely shameful.

You felt extremely shameful because of your strict upbringing. I'm not criticizing here just explaining. But do you want your children to feel the same shame?

I do not want them to feel that it is appropriate out of wedlock.

Contact Pine Rest.

I also think that Ferris State has a psychology program where in depth counseling is free or on a sliding scale basis. These students "practice" under a licensed psychologist/psychiatrist and can sometimes be better than going to a regular psychologist.

I do not want them to feel that it is appropriate out of wedlock.

You are mixing up sexual intercourse with personal exploration. If you want to you teach them that sex is something meant to be shared by two people who have committed themselves in marriage go ahead. But I would also teach them that its natural to experiment with their bodies and nothing to be ashamed about. But once they understand about their bodies they need to exercise self discipline in waiting.

First off, I stand strong, tall and proud of my morals. I am not going to apologize for my view on sex. I am opened minded to almost anything. But child masturbation being normal? NO I never did it, my kids never did it. I spoke with my brothers and sisters and none of their kids ever did it that they know off. They are very liberal with they children.

Honestly, I doubt your kids, or any of your nieces or nephews, have any desire to tell their parents if they're masturbating. It's a very private activity, and one that society teaches is wrong from a very young age.

I doubt you told your parents about your one remembered instance of self-exploration. I know it's not something I ever felt comfortable discussing with my mother.

I'm sure you remember telling your children not to touch themselves when they were younger. You'd see a child with their hand in their diaper and tell them not to do that, and possible swat them on the hand. You catch a child with their hand near their crotch and tell them not to touch themselves there.

That's something that gets remembered, even if only subconsciously. Young children have no way of rationalizing that there is a time and place where touching might be OK. All they know, is that they're told that touching themselves is a bad thing.

I'm not saying that you're wrong for parenting that way. Only that it makes it unlikely that they would tell you if they were masturbating. Not only would it be uncomfortable for them to talk about sex with you, but they have learned that it's something they should be embarrassed about.


Now her dr there, is more then willing to try different meds but our 9 yr olds is very reluctant.

It sounds like her problems are all psychological, not psychiatric. Which means, since there is no imbalance to be corrected, medication will likely do no good. She needs to see a good psychologist, not a psychiatrist, that can help her work through her problems. Medicating a psychological problem is just treating the symptoms without figuring out the cause. It would be like giving cough syrup to someone with lung cancer. It accomplishes nothing, and only gives the problem time to grow.

If her doctor is more interested in medicating her, than sitting down with her and trying to work through her issues, then you're better off finding another doctor.

Also, talking to a child psychologist about how to approach your daughter about masturbation, wouldn't hurt. It's never a bad idea to get a second opinion, especially from a professional.

Even if this was viewed as normal by my husband and I,there would still be a privacy issue. My 11 and 14 yr old do not want to share the bedroom with her if she is going to be doing this. There is not the space in our home to be able to let her have her own room so that she could do this. As for her doing it in the bathroom, no way that is disgusting.
The doctor is being very conservative where it comes to the meds with her, but my 14 yr old dr is not. I feel that she has to be able to let the love in and see the light at the end of the tunnel before we can make any significant breakthroughs.

I feel that she has to be able to let the love in and see the light at the end of the tunnel before we can make any significant breakthroughs.

That may be how you FEEL, but it's not how she feels. You see, she has 6 years of abuse and neglect behind her. That's going to take many years to change. 3 years won't do it as it took twice this long to cause the damage.

What you "feel" and what will work are two totally different animals.

That may be how you FEEL, but it's not how she feels. You see, she has 6 years of abuse and neglect behind her. That's going to take many years to change. 3 years won't do it as it took twice this long to cause the damage.

What you "feel" and what will work are two totally different animals.

I think you need to reread. The comment you quoted was about her 14 yr old, her biological child, not the 9 yr old adopted child. The 14 yr old is one of her bio children who "have high self esteem and seem to be secure in who they are, what they wish to do with their lives." (see post 5).

I respect and am grateful for all the answers and help. But there is still the comfort level of my other children involved in all this. They are not comfortable being the room with her when she does this in the middle of the night. Heck she will not even take a bath with out my youngest in there to talk to through the shower curtain.

They are not comfortable being the room with her when she does this in the middle of the night.
Aren't they sleeping in the middle of the night? How do they know what she's doing?

Hi, I have a 2 year old daughter that touches herself down there. One time, I was at the shoe store and I didn't notice she had her hands in her pants. Needless to say, people laughed and I told her "no". She hasn't been doing it in public, because I taught her to do it in private. It's not like she is masturbating she probably has an itch or just feels curious.

The point is teach her to do this in private.

Also another thing, how you said something about this being wrong out of wedlock--- now you can be proud of your morals but good luck with that. It's really silly to think that way--- kids are having sex at a very very early age. I'm not telling you to give her condoms when she's 16, I'm just saying teach her right now about masturbation and how that it's a private thing.

I would also take her to a child psychologist because he will also get to know why she is masturbating- whether it is out of curiosity or sexual abuse in the past [not sure how her past it].

Well anyway, good luck, I wish your child well and a long and healthy life.

Oh I'd also like to add, you should be a little more calm because when children get older the bigger the problems. If you remain a clam, and a understanding parent it'll be easier for you in the future, and all your children will be a lot more open with you. I know I'd want that with my daughter, rather than being anti this, anti that and have her afraid to open up to me.

.... just sayin'.

I respect and am grateful for all the answers and help. But there is still the comfort level of my other children involved in all this. They are not comfortable being the room with her when she does this in the middle of the night. Heck she will not even take a bath with out my youngest in there to talk to through the shower curtain.

You need to talk to her and explain that she needs to confine that behavior to when she's alone.

If she needs someone to talk to when she's taking a bath, then maybe she's either afraid of being alone, or just afraid of being alone in the bathtub. That's something she should get over with time.

You've had her half the time she spent being emotionally damaged. It's going to take a lot longer before she starts really healing. The best thing you can do, is talk to her and show her that you love her every chance you get. Encourage her to talk to you about her past, and anything else she may want to talk about, but don't pressure her to do so. Let her know that knowing about her past won't make you love her any less.

If I had to guess, I'd say that she's embarrassed or ashamed of things that happened to her. You need to help her understand that none of it was her fault, and you're not going to get mad at her for things she had no control over.

A common abuse technique is to tell the victim that no one will love them if they know what happened. When told to someone as young as your daughter was, that may stick with her for the rest of her life. You need to keep that in mind and be sure to let her know that you still love her whenever she tells you anything even remotely painful about her past.

Little things, like expressing pain and joy, are probably very hard for her. Emotionally abused children usually hide behind anger and/or indifference. They get mad when they're upset, and pretend that nothing matters when they care about something.

Just love her.

I would also take her to a child psychologist because he will also get to know why she is masturbating- whether it is out of curiosity or sexual abuse in the past [not sure how her past it].

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She has been seeing one for over two years now along with a councilor, but we have not seen any change in her attitude or actions. I would assume we would see some sort of something by now, even if it is slight. That is why we are wondering if we need new dr and councilor.

hheath541, The indifference is frequent from her.

the indifference probably means that she's had a lot taken from her in the past. Not even just physical objects. She probably learned that caring about something was the most quick way for it to be gone, rather it was a belonging, an event, a person, or something as simple as an emotion.

one of the simplest forms of abuse, is to take away the cause of happiness as soon as the emotion is noticed. Favorite toys disappear forever. Participation in anticipated events becomes forbidden. Friends and family members suddenly, and without explanation, disappear from their lives. Any sign of happiness is answered with anger and punishment.

as a result, it's learned that it's best not to show happiness, which often leads to not showing other emotions. Happiness results in punishment of some sort. Sadness results in more punishment, or teasing. It's safer to just not react to things, because it might just hurt less if no one else knows you care.

I would suggest being very careful how you punish her. If you take away toys or privileges, always make SURE you return them. If she has a favored toy or harmless activity, like reading or drawing, make taking it away as punishment the LAST resort. Don't punish her for being upset over losing something temporarily by taking away more things, use time out or some other seclusion technique.

you can still punish her for misbehaving, and SHOULD do so. Lack of punishment is just as bad as the wrong type of punishment. No matter what type of punishment you decide on, you need to make it clear that it's only temporary, and make sure she has a clear timeline on when to expect the punishment to end. Leaving it open-ended will make her thing you don't intend for it to end.

she's probably lost a lot in her short life. She needs to learn that she can trust you not to take away the security she now has, even if that security is just a routine or object.

you'll probably have to look harder than usual to figure out what she sees as important. Is there anything she hides in, or under, her bed or other personal space? Is there an activity she does that she tries to hide from you or gets upset when she has to stop? Is there something she gets upset about, and probably tries to distance herself from, when it's challenged (like demanding that another child 'take' it and insisting that she doesn't care, or it doesn't matter, anyway)? It will probably be something she gets angry about, because anger is a 'safe' emotion, when someone else shows an interest in it or tries to take it from her.

don't be upset if she doesn't seem to be grateful for things. Being grateful shows that she care about something. It'll take her a long time to learn that it's OK to care about things. She will probably never be someone who jumps up and down and squeals for joy, or even verbally expresses thanks, when receiving a gift. Her signs will be a lot subtler.

she's probably really quiet at birthdays and christmas. She sits off to the side, opens one gift, then moves onto the next without much comment, expression or outward excitement. The gifts are placed on the floor around her, or in a small, neat, stack off to the side, and then pretty much ignored for the rest of the day. When she does say thank you, it's quiet and sounds more reactionary than real.



OK, I feel the need to add a disclaimer. I'm not a therapist. I can't medically diagnose or treat your daughter. I may be wrong about everything. Or I may not. I can only speak from personal experience and observation.

HHeath, most of what you said really smacks of how my daughter acts. Thank you.
We do use time outs frequently, but we always have to remind her several times that the time does not start till she is quiet, also sometimes she will just stand there even when her time is up. I think that is her way of saying I'm in control not you.
About the gratefulness, She used to cry over everything we got her but now its more of a give me it or else type behavior. She even expected me to go out and buy her everything my girls had. Some of that is very old and can not be replaced and yet when we told her no we can not do that but that as time goes on she will accumulate old stuff and things she will not get rid off, she went off and started destroying their stuff. As for the "take it" responses, yes she had did that a few times, but mostly with my grandson. She has to be watched with him because she tends to get violent towards him and refuses to accept the fact that he is a baby, well toddler now and does not know what all is right or wrong but instead follows and learns from us. If we are rude and mean, then he will learn that. We have been trying to get the point across to her that if he takes something of hers to play with and she does not want him playing with it, come talk to me or dad or try to substitute what he has with something of his. She is getting better with the substituting. My husband and I feel really bad right now because we had her stuffed animals in a garbage bag on the deck because we were flea treating (thanks to a friend, I learned to never let her bring her dog here) well my husband accidentally throw it away a few weeks ago. I gave her my only stuffed animal left from my childhood. She cried. I told her I will let her start picking up some at consignment shops and second hand stores. My only stipulation is that they be machine washable.

I am worried that because of everything that she has went through, she may be developing an unhealthy relationship with food. The reason I worry about this is because she had started eating 3 or 4 helpings and I asked her why she was still eating. Her response was that she still felt empty. So I explained to her what she should feel when she is full and how she probably feels after eating all that. I told her to listen to her body, it will tell her when she's full and if it does not then to let me know and we will get her mind off food and do something fun or just cuddle and watch TV. We also started only healthy snacking and limit carbs, fats and sugars. The healthy snacking stands for almost everyone. My husband is really the only one allowed to eat what he wants since his BMI is only 4% and he eats like a horse. (If any one knows any surefire ways to put some weight on him, let me know) I worry about this because I was a fat kid and do not want to see any of the kids go through the teasing and humiliation that I had. But yet I try to not make a big deal out it like my grandmother and aunts did with me and my sister. It made us want to eat more.
Manners, morals, responsibility and respect are what we strive for the kids to learn.

She might be staying in the corner as a way to punish herself. You don't punish her as harshly as she's used to, and she feels like she deserves more. When she did something bad she was made to feel afraid, belittled, and worthless. Since your punishments don't do that, she feels like she needs to punish herself further. Doing something bad means she's worthless, so she's doing her best to make herself feel that way. It's the only punishment she fully understands.

When she insists on staying in time-out, try to gently correct the behavior. Go over to her, hug her, and try to gently lead her back to the rest of the family or what she was doing. Don't force her. If she insists on staying after that, let her. Over time she'll start to fight it less and tart taking herself out of time-out. When she does that, don't make a big deal out of it, just acknowledge that she's back and continue what you were doing.

I have gotten more of an understanding from you hheath then what I have gotten from her dr and therapist. And it's a counseling night tonight. I wish my 14 year old would open up and tell us if her sperm donor touched her or not. He was just released from prison for doing that to his stepdaughter and mine was the one who blow the whistle on him when he was grooming her and helped her to speak up to the police. These two girls seem to spur each other on and feed off the other. I know what has made my 14 yr old the way she is, her sperm donor. But sometimes its easier to deal with the younger one. When I come home and my 14 yr old is fighting with my 18 yr old I sometimes wish I could crawl in a hole and out wait the fall out. I have been trying to get the two councilors to do one family session a month. I really think the girls need to learn how to accept each other and stop fighting. They fight more then me and my brother did and he use to do beat on me for kicks but it always a " you played football with him and you knew he would be rough" reaction. So you, sometimes I feel that my house is warzone with all the estrogen.

Sounds like you need to find new doctors for both of them. Look for a therapist who's willing to take both of them, and will be willing to have separate and group meetings.

If either of them are on meds, you should look in to what they are supposed to be treating and decide if it's actually needed, or helping. Medicating a psychological problem can sometimes shut down the receptors in the brain that make it possible to deal with them in other ways. Psychiatric medication targets certain receptors in the brain to block hormones and enzymes that lead to emotional imbalance, anger, depression, and other issues caused by hormone imbalances. If the problem isn't an imbalance, then all medication is doing is blocking the brains ability to process and feel those emotions.