I repeatedly come across the argument that we shouldn't judge.
If we follow that strict reasoning, wouldn't that make being a judge in a court of law a sin
For a Christian? After all, a judge's job is to judge-isn't it?


"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye" (Matthew 7:1-5)


http://www.obeygod.com/judgenot.html

We have to look and take the entire bible as one context, not merely look at one verse,

We see in the Old Testement God setting up judges over us.
And we also see that as a Chrsitian if someone does wrong against us, we are to go to them, go to them with witnesses and in the end if they don't correct the wrong we are to take them in front of the entire church. Who would review the complaint and take action.

The church for the Christian was suppose to be taking care of the issue.
So in fact we do judge facts, we do call our brothers and sisters into correction for their actions.

What we can not do is try to decide their motives or salvation of others, Also Christ was always direct that he addressed a heavenly kingdom, not a earthly one.

And the bible also tells us that God ordains and sets the rulers over us, which judges would be part of that.

It is like with Paul and the area for women to be quiet, but yet we know as a fact that there were women leaders in the early church. One has to temper any one verse with all the other verses and get a idea of the overall goal.

Simply put, we all jugde. There isn't a person in the board, or on this earth who hasn't judged someone a time or two.

This very thread is judging judges who judge. Im not trying to sound cute, its just a fact. You can't avoid sin. Thank God for Jesus.

Simply put, we all jugde. There isnt a person in the board, or on this earth who hasnt judged someone a time or two.

This very thread is judging judges who judge. Im not trying to sound cute, its just a fact. You can't avoid sin. Thank God for Jesus.


I agree with everything you said except the part that I am judging the judges and sinning by asking this rhetorical question for the sake of discussion. Please notice that I said nothing pro or con about the judges. The scripture I posted is one that others use to support the idea that one should never opine about another person's conduct. That of course isn't a biblical concept and is a misinterpretation of what the scripture means.


Hope that clears up the misunderstanding.


: )

Hmm.. what's the alternative? How do we deal with the miscreants of society?

I agree with everything you said except the part that I am judging the judges and sinning by asking this rhetorical question for the sake of discussion. Please notice that I said nothing pro or con about the judges. The scripture I posted is one that others use to support the idea that one should never opine about another person's conduct. That of course isn't a biblical concept and is a misinterpretation of what the scripture means.


Hope that clears up the misunderstanding.


: )

Touché

I repeatedly come across the argument that we shouldn't judge.
If we follow that strict reasoning, wouldn't that make being a judge in a court of law a sin
for a Christian? After all, a judge's job is to judge-isn't it?


"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye" (Matthew 7:1-5)


http://www.obeygod.com/judgenot.html
In the Bible God appointed judges, when the Hebrews were lost in the desert, to keep orderly law. If it has something to do with upholding justice and righteousness then it's okay. Otherwise there would be no courthouse or judges today. What the Bible means is that you are not to judge people like for instance, "She is such a tramp! Did you see how he or she was flirting in front of their dates." Like that for instance. I hope this makes sense to you. Because I honestly tried to explain at my best.

The answer is NO. Being a judge is about laws that are here in the land. Being a judge here on earth is no sin. We are to obey the laws of the land. Judges are appointed here on earth. Judges are given that right to judge to uphold justice. God has appointed everyone of these people. Kings, judges, leaders.

Joe

In the Bible God appointed judges, when the Hebrews were lost in the desert, to keep orderly law. If it has something to do with upholding justice and righteousness then it's okay. Otherwise there would be no courthouse or judges today. What the Bible means is that you are not to judge people like for instance, "She is such a tramp! Did you see how he or she was flirting in front of their dates." Like that for instance. I hope this makes sense to you. Because I honestly tried to explain at my best.

I understand. What you are saying is that we shouldn't misjudge people.

Hmm.. what's the alternative? How do we deal with the miscreants of society?

Are you not judging these people you speak of by calling them "miscreants"? Who is to say WHO is the miscreant and who is not?


If it has something to do with upholding justice and righteousness then it's okay. Otherwise there would be no courthouse or judges today.

Is that so? And who is the judge of what is justice and what is righteous? When there was a law against prayer and those who prayed were judged and sentanced to death, were the judges justified?

Are you not judging these people you speak of by calling them "miscreants"? Who is to say WHO is the miscreant and who is not?



Is that so? And who is the judge of what is justice and what is righteous? When there was a law against prayer and those who prayed were judged and sentanced to death, were the judges justified?


The Nuremberg trials. Do you feel that those judges were in no position to evaluate who were guilty and who weren't guilty of wrong conduct?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Trials

Are you not judging these people you speak of by calling them "miscreants"? Who is to say WHO is the miscreant and who is not?
I have no problems calling miscreants those who have broken the laws established by our peers (government that we elected, etc). Maybe that's not the right term or the term you like but I'm not hung up on the exacts "judge not" words of the bible. People who have 'hurt' others should be punished for it.

The Nuremberg trials. Do you feel that those judges were in no position to evaluate who were guilty and who weren't guilty of wrong conduct?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Trials

Whether it be leading the Nazis or jaywalking... a crime is a crime.. a sin is a sin.. a judge is a judge.

What makes that judge have any more right to judge than the one who resides over a jaywalking case?

I have no problems calling miscreants those who have broken the laws established by our peers (government that we elected, etc). Maybe that's not the right term or the term you like but I'm not hung up on the exacts "judge not" words of the bible. People who have 'hurt' others should be punished for it.

Have you ever hurt someone? Have you ever broken a law established by our peers or our government?

Were you punished for it? Were you punished for every time you hurt someone or broke a law?

Oops

(someone can delete this if they have the power)

Have you ever hurt someone? Have you ever broken a law established by our peers or our governement?
Were you punished for it? Were you punished for everytime you hurt someone or broke a law?Yes; I think (I've never been in court as an accused); not sure which "it" you are referring to but I have been punished for bad deeds; of course not no one is.

Ok so where were you going with this?

For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.(Matthew 7:1-5)
I think that is more the point. I am prepared to be judged by others in the manner I judge them. If you read the whole context of the quote, I think the implied "sin" is in creating a double standard. It is a reminder that we will all be measured by the same yardstick and I am glad of that too. And it is an invitation to stick to cleaning your own backyard too - not a bad idea. Or be sure you don't live in a glass house when you throw that stone LOL. I believe in fairness and that is as fair as it comes.

I actually live my life so that its both possible and comfortable to maintain that both-directions judgement balance. It took me a long painful path to get there so I understand those who have not yet arrived too, which is why I make efforts to couch my judgements in the most compassionate of terms as possible. I remember what it was like being off my moral compass and it was bad. And on any given day, I could be making a mistake too so I see others like that and treat them as kindly as I hope to be. Judgement does not harm others, actions do. I contend that actions that damage others are wrong and so therefore is the judgement that spawned it.

Judgement is an unavoidable and necessary part of living. I support the kind of judgement that is used as discernment to add to awareness or to protect life by containing harm. I abhor judgement that attempts to hide bigotry, is used to subjegate others or doesn't measure up to reality on a world stage. Unfortunately when it comes to the US criminal justice system, we have yet to learn how to contain harm-makers without harming them back and to that I say shame on us. We really haven't risen much past the eye for an eye arrangement in the last couple of milleniums. And you know what that gets us, lots of blind people. Not to be confused with blind justice - which is a metaphor LOL oddly enough for the quote that started this whole discussion-- Fair treatment!

Besides, the judging you speak of Starman is to the law of the land, not to some moral code of any religion and in this country those two are rightfully separated. It goes almost without saying though, that correct judgement still prevails (hopefully) and incorrect judgement still diminished (hopefully) since that system was also devised with substantial checks and balances to prevent injustice thereby proving that judgement can be both good and bad, accurate and inaccurate.

Yes; I think (I've never been in court as an accused); not sure which "it" you are referring to but I have been punished for bad deeds; of course not no one is.

Ok so where were you going with this?

Well, I don't really know where I am going with this lol But to continue rambling aimlessly...

Many people will say (and to quote a brilliant man), "Only God can judge me."

However, at the same time, they will turn around and say, "Well, that person did this and that so he deserves to be judged."

But who is to say what is right and what is wrong? What is judgable and what is not? What makes someone a miscreant worthy of judgment?

Some may say it's the law... well, there is no law against ingorance and yet, we judge ignorant people almost every day.

Some may say it's the 10 commandments... well, there is no commandment against a 40-year-old man having sex with a 10-year-old girl... but show me one person who thinks that person shouldn't be judged.

I agree with you Jizzle. Many of the laws set forth by our courts are for protection: of minors, of people entering a contract, etc. Not all eventuallities are covered in the bible.

And this is kind of interesting, what Starman and Val are talking about:

For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.(Matthew 7:1-5)

So if a murderer is not judgmental of murderous acts/tendancies of others, will he not be judged for his own murderous acts/tendancies?

And if you say, well this doesn't apply for murder... well, then we are back to wo is the judge of what is "too bad" to not be applicable my the words of Matthew?

And this is kind of interesting, what Starman and Val are talking about:

For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.(Matthew 7:1-5)

So if a murderer is not judgmental of murderous acts/tendancies of others, will he not be judged for his own murderous acts/tendancies?

And if you say, well this doesnt apply for murder... well, then we are back to wo is the judge of what is "too bad" to not be applicable my the words of Matthew??

Actually, no declaration of human rights as arose during the European Age of Enlightenment and as repeated in the USA Constitution and put forth by the United Nations would ever have existed without humans judging certain conduct, such as skinning people alive, cutting off limbs as punishment, savage whippings, wife abuse as evil if the judgment which some claim that we are not entitled to would not have been made.


http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html



http://score.rims.k12.ca.us/score_lessons/growth_of_democratic/

I repeatedly come across the argument that we shouldn't judge.
If we follow that strict reasoning, wouldn't that make being a judge in a court of law a sin
for a Christian? After all, a judge's job is to judge-isn't it?

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye" (Matthew 7:1-5)

http://www.obeygod.com/judgenot.html

I suspect that you know the answer to your question, because you have a pretty good handle on the scriptures.

The judgement that Jesus warns against in his Sermon on the Mount is not related to the administration of justice in properly constituted courts of law set up to administer the statues of a nation, but deals solely with our unauthorised social interactions, many of which, if we are unwise, will cause divisions between relatives, friends, and neighbours.

Jesus seems to be very particular in directing his remarks to fault finders; those who set themselves up as judges and denounce the failings of others, particularly when they themselves have failings that require their time and energies to overcome to make of themselves better persons, less sinful persons, and nicer persons.

While Jesus was teaching the people, publicans and sinners came to hear Him; "and the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying: This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them." The Sadducees and Pharisees were finding fault saying, "How is it that this man as great as He pretends to be, eats with publicans and sinners?" They condemned Jesus because of the company he kept. Jesus said to them, Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. Yet, if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

There is a principle here that enables us to live in peace with most other people. If we would have peace we must replace enmity with forbearance, which means to refrain or abstain from finding fault or from condemning others. We have the power to do this if we really cherish in our hearts the ideals of Christ, who said: "Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift." (Matt.5:23-24)

Note that the Saviour did not say if you have ought against him, but if you find that another has ought against you.

Adding as it were the final layer on the principle of forgiveness on the principle of abstaining from broadcasting the sins of others and of using them as a weapon against them (perhaps to make ourselves seem better than they - the great sin of Pride) Jesus taught For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Jesus teaches that no one who stands at the Judgement Bar of God needing and expecting forgiveness has a hope of receiving it unless they have forgiven others as a principle of their daily lives. Regardless of how justified we believe we are in harbouring grudges against someone who has offended us, we are directed by our sovereign Lord to let it go, and not only let it go, but to forgive them. He does not say that they need to ask or seek forgiveness from us, only that we should give it. He adds a warning that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven.

To go back to your question, yes, it is the job of a judge to judge. But it is not the job of the rank and file of God's church and kingdom to pronounce judgement against each other.


M:)RGANITE