Hello,

Just as a backgrounder, I have placed my original post in quotes at the bottom. The one thing I should add is that we contacted the original alleged creditor (GMAC), who was reasonably nice, but told us that they no longer held the debt and couldn't provide us with any verification.

This past week I sent a fax to the credit agency, Canadian Bonded Credit Limited (CBCL) requesting that they fill out the "DEBT COLLECTOR DISCLOSURE STATEMENT", very slightly modified from the one in the sticky at the top of this forum.

Last night I had a conversation with "George" from CBCL, and this is a short summary: It started very cordial with him offering to let us pay out the debt for 2/3 of its value ($650). I probably would have gone right ahead if they hadn't originally been so unkind to my wife and harassed us subsequently by phone. However, I simply said that I wanted him to fill out the form I faxed, and that I had no intention of paying a debt I could not verify was valid. George told me he could not do that because they were only collecting on behalf of GMAC and that we would have to call GMAC for verification [note: see above for GMAC's take on this]. I questioned him on this, told him that GMAC did not hold this debt and he claimed absolutely that CBCL had not bought the debt but were only collecting on behalf of GMAC.

It ended up going back and forth a little with him saying he couldn't/wouldn't provide proof of the validity of the debt but that I should pay because this was 'a serious matter, and you are dealing with a collection agency'. In the end I stated that I had no intention of paying a debt I could not verify, requested again that he provide proof of the debt, and that until CBCL does so they should cease and desist all contact with us.

SO, what is my next move? Is it true by Canadian/Ontario law that the onus is on CBCL to provide proof of the validity of the debt. If so, should I just await their next move or should I do something more proactive?



I must state as a final point that the money is not the issue here -- we are fortunate to be in a position where we could pay it (although we are not swimming in money, we have reasonably good employment). My point here is more principle. They were like savage pitbulls at first and I don't want to give any money to these awful people or their corporation. On the other hand, if I am in for a long, drawn out legal battle and might be liable to pay additional fees, perhaps I am better just cutting my losses. Any thoughts?




Original post:

"Hello,

Myself and my wife have always prided ourselves on living within our means, minimizing debt, and our (up to now) excellent credit rating. This isn't to say that we are swimming in cash or have no debt, just that we have always managed it appropriately.

This has been rocked a little since my wife received a call today from Canadian Bonded Credit that was very threatening and nasty, regarding a supposed debt of $900 owed to GMAC. Apparently, about 5-6 years ago, following a split-up with a former partner in which he returned a leased car, there was a subsequent bill of $900 that has not been paid. The horrible collections woman ludicrously accused my wife of moving and changing her name to avoid the debt (of course, marrying and moving in with a new husband couldn't possibly account for this!).

We have spoken to her former partner (with whom we are friendly and who happens to run a car dealership), who assured us that when he returned the car everything was sorted out. What is more, we have never heard anything about this debt, and my wife has really not been that hard to find. Furthermore,I find it hard to believe it was on our credit bureau 12 months ago when we were approved for our mortgage by BMO at a very good rate.

So here are our quandries:

1. Credit bureau ratings. How can we find out if this is on our credit bureau and if it is there, how do we get it off? How can we prove that we were never given any information about this debt, and even if we can, will that remove it?

2. Do we really owe the $900? We are in the process of trying to contact GMAC, but I am wondering, since this is around the 6-year point, if this is one of those debts that has been sold to the collection agency for pennies after the SOL has run out. If paying this now is only going to make the nasty credit collecters richer then I'm really not prepared to do that, especially since they made my wife so incredibly upset. On the other hand, if it is genuine debt owed to GMAC then I would be willing to pay it if they can show us that it is truly owed and that they tried to reasonably inform my wife of the debt.

I guess the final question is practicality. Even if the debt is bogus or past the SOL, will paying it get rid of any nasty entries on our credit bureau? We don't have any extra money hanging around, but on the other hand, our good credit is worth $900 to us. Can we pay the collection agency this supposed debt on the condition that they ensure this entry is wiped out from our credit bureau information?

Any assistance would be most appreciated."

One way to end the argument with them, is this.

I will tender payment in full upon verification and validication of this debt, this means, that you provide the original contract for my inspection. No contract no debt. Failure to provide the requested items means you have no valid claim against me.

Just a thought>

I stand by my original response to your previous posting (you really should have just added this rather then start a new thread).

The only thing they can do is take you to court. In court they will have to produce documentation of the debt. If they can't the case will be dismissed.

I stand by my original response to your previous posting (you really should have just added this rather then start a new thread).

The only thing they can do is take you to court. In court they will have to produce documentation of the debt. If they can't the case will be dismissed.


I guess my only problem with this approach is that I might then be liable for court fees, payment of their legal fees etc. which I imagine will be much more than the $950 they say we currently owe. Are they duty-bound to provide this documentation BEFORE taking me to court? Or, at the very least, if it goes to court and I argue that I was willing to pay as soon as they gave me this documentation, will I then not be liable for their court costs?

Thanks

(and my apologies if I should not have started a new thread)

Oh, and having read my original posts I should clarify that we spoke to GMAC twice -- the first time they were jerks and the second time they were nice but could provide very little info or verification.

In the American judicial system there is a process known as discovery. This is where the plaintiff turns over all relevant documents to the defendant. So, in an American court, they would have to turn over proof of the debt before going to court. They might even have to do so before getting a court date.

Hello,

Just as a backgrounder, I have placed my original post in quotes at the bottom. The one thing I should add is that we contacted the original alleged creditor (GMAC), who was reasonably nice, but told us that they no longer held the debt and couldn't provide us with any verification.

This past week I sent a fax to the credit agency, Canadian Bonded Credit Limited (CBCL) requesting that they fill out the "DEBT COLLECTOR DISCLOSURE STATEMENT", very slightly modified from the one in the sticky at the top of this forum.

Last night I had a conversation with "George" from CBCL, and this is a short summary: It started out very cordial with him offering to let us pay out the debt for 2/3 of its value ($650). I probably would have gone right ahead if they hadn't originally been so unkind to my wife and harrassed us subsequently by phone. However, I simply said that I wanted him to fill out the form I faxed, and that I had no intention of paying a debt I could not verify was valid. George told me he could not do that because they were only collecting on behalf of GMAC and that we would have to call GMAC for verification [note: see above for GMAC's take on this]. I questioned him on this, told him that GMAC did not hold this debt and he claimed absolutely that CBCL had not bought the debt but were only collecting on behalf of GMAC.

It ended up going back and forth a little with him saying he couldn't/wouldn't provide proof of the validity of the debt but that I should pay because this was 'a serious matter, and you are dealing with a collection agency'. In the end I stated that I had no intention of paying a debt I could not verify, requested again that he provide proof of the debt, and that until CBCL does so they should cease and desist all contact with us.

SO, what is my next move? Is it true by Canadian/Ontario law that the onus is on CBCL to provide proof of the validity of the debt. If so, should I just await their next move or should I do something more proactive?



I must state as a final point that the money is not the issue here -- we are fortunate to be in a position where we could pay it (although we are not swimming in money, we have reasonably good employment). My point here is more principle. They were like savage pitbulls at first and I don't want to give any money to these awful people or their corporation. On the other hand, if I am in for a long, drawn out legal battle and might be liable to pay additional fees, perhaps I am better just cutting my losses. Any thoughts?




Original post:

"Hello,

Myself and my wife have always prided ourselves on living within our means, minimizing debt, and our (up to now) excellent credit rating. This isn't to say that we are swimming in cash or have no debt, just that we have always managed it appropriately.

This has been rocked a little since my wife received a call today from Canadian Bonded Credit that was very threatening and nasty, regarding a supposed debt of $900 owed to GMAC. Apparently, about 5-6 years ago, following a split-up with a former partner in which he returned a leased car, there was a subsequent bill of $900 that has not been paid. The horrible collections woman ludicrously accused my wife of moving and changing her name to avoid the debt (of course, marrying and moving in with a new husband couldn't possibly account for this!).

We have spoken to her former partner (with whom we are friendly and who happens to run a car dealership), who assured us that when he returned the car everything was sorted out. What is more, we have never heard anything about this debt, and my wife has really not been that hard to find. Furthermore,I find it hard to believe it was on our credit bureau 12 months ago when we were approved for our mortgage by BMO at a very good rate.

So here are our quandries:

1. Credit bureau ratings. How can we find out if this is on our credit bureau and if it is there, how do we get it off? How can we prove that we were never given any information about this debt, and even if we can, will that remove it?

2. Do we really owe the $900? We are in the process of trying to contact GMAC, but I am wondering, since this is around the 6-year point, if this is one of those debts that has been sold to the collection agency for pennies after the SOL has run out. If paying this now is only going to make the nasty credit collecters richer then I'm really not prepared to do that, especially since they made my wife so incredibly upset. On the other hand, if it is genuine debt owed to GMAC then I would be willing to pay it if they can show us that it is truly owed and that they tried to reasonably inform my wife of the debt.

I guess the final question is practicality. Even if the debt is bogus or past the SOL, will paying it get rid of any nasty entries on our credit bureau? We don't have any extra money hanging around, but on the other hand, our good credit is worth $900 to us. Can we pay the collection agency this supposed debt on the condition that they ensure this entry is wiped out from our credit bureau information?

Any assistance would be most appreciated."
The debt will never be removed off the credit bureau once it is put there. I will stay there for the 7 years against your name and record.

So here I am again, still dealing with this...

About six months ago we were sent a letter by CBCL offering to make the debt go away if we paid a portion (about $400). I refused to do so on principal (they never provided the information I requested).

Today we received what they claimed was the "final" threatening letter. I recognize that it is now well beyond the statute of limitations, but I am also concerned that the credit agency can make a negative post on my wife's credit and it will affect us from NOW, not from when the debt was incurred. Along these lines, I found this on another site:

"Debts remain listed on your credit report for six years from the date of the last collection activity"

So, is this true -- if they decide to put this on our credit report now will it affect us for the next six years? Alternatively, since this occurred more than six years ago, even if they "report" us now will it have no effect since it is six years past the original date the debt was incurred?

I hope this isn't too confusing.

Thanks