My daughter is 20 yrs old. I was divorced from her mother for 3 years. I'm recently re-married. My daughter is very manipulative and has caused major damage towards my wife and new family. She wants me to leave my wife so that she can control me the way her mother did for 20 years in a very abusive marriage. I've tried to talk to my daughter about her behavior but she refuses to listen to my feelings. She has created an environment of hostility towards my new family that has my wife very uncomfortable with dealing with my daughter moving forward. I'm left with a choice of cutting the communication with my daughter or lossing my wife whom I love and my new family. In a very covert and sneeky way my daughter has systematically manipated the name of "father" to get what she wants. I do love my daughter but I'm tired of the games. I divorced her mother but it is like I have to divorce my daughter to get free of the cycle that she seems to have embraced from living under the same roof and learning all of this bad behavior for all these years. I feel totally helpess. I need to know how deal with this. I have my wife up in arms telling me that she wants me to be strong and not let my daughter do this to us. I'm trying to convince my wife that we need to choose our battles with these types of people and not let them get to us. My wife believes the only way for her to stop manipulating is for me to not deal with her at all. As long as my daughter feels she has an opening it will not stop. The irony is if I was to loose my new wife over this I will resent my daughter more and not want to ever talk to her again. Advice ?

You've tried to "choose your battles" and it hasn't worked.

You stated the solution:
1. My wife believes the only way for her to stop manipulating is for me to not deal with her at all.
2. As long as my daughter feels she has an opening it will not stop.

Your wife is correct. You will be used and manipulated as long as you allow it. Stop allowing it if you value your marriage. Don't deal with your daughter at all.

Thanks for the advice. I'm there and that is what I have to do. Understand the situation has been touchy because I wanted to believe that things could improve. As soon as I give and inch she takes a mile, the whole time I'm hearing all the drama of why she is entiled to act the way she does. I'm one of those people that tries to fix eveything. I had to have the realization that if this continues down this path I will loose my wife and end up a miserable regretul man. I've read enough material on maniluating people and borderline people to write my own book. The issue is that when it is your own daughter it is difficult. The interesting fact is that as soon as all the legal battles my ex waged against me finacially were defeated by my lawyer is when my daughter came around again. So he is the million dollar question. When and how do I deal with her again in my life ? Is the statement do not deal with her again meaning never ? Or is it until she appologizes and respects me and my family ? Or will that ever even happen ? My experience with these people is that they never change and eveything is someone else's fault. I'm not weak. I'm not being wishy washy. I want to know what to expect. I have delt with the abusive speech and emails of how "she" really feels for 3 years. My thinking is she needs to start looking in the mirror not pointing to others.

I was married for 20 years to a Borderline wife that all but convinced me I was nuts. Then I finally got the courage to leave her and get divorced. She used every trick in the book to destroy me including using my children who are both adults (20-23). I met the most beautiful (inside and out) woman that I just adore and she also has two children. We fell in love and were married and are very very happy. However all of the legal battles were between my ex and I and somehow we were able to compartmentalize this in our relatioship and get through it. The issue is my 20 year old daughter is a clone of my ex and has caused damage in my marriage. So I literally have to cut the cord with her and stop dealing with her or I will be divorced again. Giving this backdrop here is my question.
How can I deal with all this drama ? I'm the one in the middle here and something has got to give. I honestly believe my marriage is one in a million and love my wife to death but the emotional roller coaster is freaking killing me. Not to mention I'm trying to work and re-establish everything I lost and raise two new children from my new marriage. I know, the experts say I should have waited to re-marry. However was I supposed to let the best thing that ever happened to me get away over a group of manipulating people. My first marriage was a literal prison but now that I'm free from it I'm in a emotional prison of the damn psycological warfair that has been waged against my new family. So it all goes back to my ex will not be happy until I'm not happy.

Hi newday, talk about overcoming advertsity, wow ! You managed to find a lovely new woman, fell in love, new family and you are happy. So you cut ties with your daughter, that's okay, when she is older she may regret her ways. You do what you have to get through this.

Drama. Well we all have some. You have more then most it seems. All I can say is keep a straight head. Can you move away to put distance between you and the ex ?

Start a new life in another State or country?

Ms tick

<threads merged>

If you know what you're dealing with - a Borderline or Narcissistic personality then you know that it is incredibly difficult to have a relationship with them. Your daughter has had the perfect model for her behavior - her mother - and now they are both trying to abuse, bully and manipulate you.

Sadly, there is only one thing that you can do. Limit contact as much as possible. Your new wife and family are your priority now. There is very little that you can do for your daughter as she has already shown you that she will cause as much trouble as she can whenever she can.

Your daughter is an adult and has her own life to live now - as do you. Do not repeat the cycle of abuse that you allowed yourself to suffer with your ex wife. You now have a choice. Yes, you will be the bad guy, and you will have to endure hearing about what a 'bad father' you are from them - but in the end it is your life and you need to choose what is good for you - your new wife.

She is right. You must limit contact as much as possible. If this means cutting yourself off from your daughter then so be it. You must be in control of any communication with her and not allow her to poison your new family. It's sad, but you must make the break from her like you did your ex wife. There will always be regret, but at least you will have been very clear about where your priorities lie. Your priority is your emotional and mental health.

In my resolve to break the horrible cycle of abuse from an abusive marriage where the adult children have sided in the camp of my ex-wife I'm left with the emotional baggage and psycholigical effects of the whole divorce and marriage relationship. Being the one that made the choice to leave I'm now the bad person for pulling the plug. To make it even more interesting I decided to move on and get re-married to a woman that has boundless wisdom and strength that has overcome a very similar past. My own guilt of leaving my children who are adults to fall victim to a continued future with my ex and ex's family to further the abuse that runs free in this camp has left me confused. My un realistic idea that divorcing their mother could foster a environment to have new chance at a healthy relationship at this point of less than 3 years from the initial separation has come crashing down. So what is my question ? I have to cut all communication with the people that have taken advantage of me for over 20 years this I know. How do you get these adult children of mine to see me the right way ? All they see is their father is devoted to a new woman that they have made sure would be the devil in their eyes. My new wife is totally supportive of me however is very much justified in her dislike of the behavior that has attacked her husband (me) and also her and our family. In this new marriage I cannot let the dysfunction of my past filter in to my new life or I will be right where I was with new faces very soon. Sometime I wonder if I deserve a new marriage and to be happy ? Or a better point does my new wonderful wife deserve to see her husband have to go through all of this pain. Will I crack and end up resenting my new wife for her and I "staying" away from my children not out of us being selfish to have a new life but to protect the marriage and the woman I love. I cannot believe that I'm the only person that left a situation like this and had to divorce the whole family to not go insane. My main question is how do I stay healthy and know I made the correct choices when I made so many stupid mistakes it appears for so long.

Wow, pretty tough on there.

Understand, at this point you are still teaching your adult children how to act. They need to know at this point in their life that if they cross boundaries set forth by society, they will not be tolerated to participate in your life any further.

This is a powerful lesson they need. It has gone from "Daddy" to "Father" at this point... when one realizes that their father is there of his own free will and nothing more... that individual will grow up and appreciate you for a man and not just another TEET at which they can suckle from.

Yes, you hold your ground and you let your kids know that they are to act as adults and with respect or they can run off to the other camp and find someone else to play the role of "Daddy"

Don't be an enabler, teach the tough lesson...

A) it is your job
B) your kids will thank you later for showing them that they are in fact adults

The Wife and her family? You have to write them off... Act is if they no longer exist, the Abuse is still working on you. Besides, your kids need your attention. Who's lesson do you want them to learn? Her lesson of sickness and abuse? OR Your lesson on how adults interact with each other in a healthy society?

My new wife and I have had a really bad time dealing with my adult children through the divorce proceedings and now after all the legal battles are over. They are very manipulative and very like their mother who is borderline. This is the backdrop of my question. I hate the "behavior" of my adult children. I still "love" them or at least I believe I do. My new wife hates them to the point where it makes me feel threatened. I think she is totally justifed in her feelings for the things my daughter in specific has done and said. I know women are more emotional than men and maybe this is because she is angry right now. The questions is what about when my daughter gets married or has children ? Will my wife always go back to the time that my daughter acted wrongly as her excuse for her to not see her ? I feel she will. I feel the marriage to my new wife will always be difficult for me because although my children will probably never accept my new wife and her children I will always be the one in the middle feeling like crap. My wife can say well they caused this. She will be correct. So do I continue the marriage under these circumstances or has too much bad blood have already occurred ? In other words when a man and a woman fall in love they have children typically and the problems that occur in life are "theirs" to go through. In my case I have my new family and those challenges plus "my" problems that caused problems for my wife and subsequently my marriage. Please understand when my children are out of the picture totally we have the best marriage and relationship. I'm her children's step dad and life is good. I'm trying to measure her "feelings" against the possibility that she is manipulating me into forgetting I have children of my own due to to her wanting me 100% for herself and her children. In other words she is finished with my adult children so I'm pretty much left with a choice of her and this life with her kids or divorce if I was to attempt to have a relationship with my daughter or son. Now my daughter is a master manipulator and she has no respect for myself or my wife. She deserves to be cut off at this point. My wife see's me as a softy that always melts for my children. I really have woke up on my own that I need to stop this cycle or I will loose my second wife. After 20 years of being in a borderline marriage I'm bound to have some areas that need growth. My new wife is looks at me like the lifelong overweight person that joins weight watchers at the age of 65 to loose 200 pounds. In other words she loves me for who I'am but I will not change and stop letting my children abusing me. I know I can. I'm a little slow I'm just pissed off that my new wife is the one telling me these things and I can't be smart enough on my own to know how to deal with these monsters I created. In others words although my wife is 100 % correct in her attitude will she use this as a stumbling block for the rest of my life whenever my children pop up. In other words after WWII many people hated the Japanese for pearl harbor. They still eat at japanese steak houses and drive japanese cars. Maybe not the best analogy but to never deal with my children again no matter how terrible they are is unrealistic. I just need to be a father to them at this point and be a good example to them moving forward. Thanks.

Ok this is my last ? For a while. At the age of 43 and re-married after 3 years since 40 of a extremely nasty divorce that left me totally destroyed I have to ask the question. I used to be a happy guy. Before marriage the first time I was always happy I felt adrenaline going up and down my spine all the time. Everything excited me in a good way. Very optimistic is a good way of putting it. The first wife sucked the life from me but I managed to fight back and rebound and begin living again. I met my current wife and we were smitten with each other and still are. The issue is I'm so sad over all the damage that my ex caused that she so skillfully made sure that I was the blame for. In other words she projected her insane thinking onto me and our children. So how to get happy again. My new wife despises all of them and justifyably so. I think after being married to a borderline person that manipulated the children that are now adults one should move away and live alone somewhere. The fact that I'm trying to live a new normal life with a new family will always come under ridicule from my children who do not have normal thinking. The issue is I love my new wife. I really do. So if there is some advice that can get me over this hump please respond. I'm really trying to move on mentally.

Maybe you needed to heal yourself a bit more before "jumping" back in.

All of your questions need to be combined in order to get a clear picture of what is going on and I have requested that that be done.

I think you jumped into remarriage too quickly - you obviously have issues from your first marriage that are not resolved.

I have no idea what the "Japanese cars/Pearl Harbor" reference means, by the way.

My late husband had been married before, bitter divorce, dragged on, bitter relationship with his "ex," problems with his relationship with his daughters.

IT WAS NOT MY PROBLEM - I NEITHER LIKED NOR HATED HIS FIRST WIFE. I was not the cause of his divorce, didn't meet him until years afterward. I never said a bad word about the woman, never, and to the stepdaughters I was their father's wife - if they liked me, fine (and they did) but if they had not, well, I didn't marry them. I was somewhat of a friend to them but it boiled down to - I was their father's wife.

Is that your situation or is there a reason for all of the resentment that's going on - to be quite frank.

I have no idea why everyone is running your life but you. You need to get a handle on things, determine your priorities and then act on them.

You need to decide what you want and then take charge.

>Multiple Threads Merged<

I would assume that if your wife is the intelligent woman you claim she is then if your kids did an about face she would support your decision to be in their life.That is not to say she would have a relationship with them.She has no reason to and it isn't necessary.

It sounds as if you have made great strides toward protecting yourself from your kids abuse.I would keep my distance from them until they understand exactly what it is you expect from the relationship.

Be clear about what your expectations are.
It is not enough to say "You must respect me".Be specific.Site examples of when they crossed the line and make it clear that you won't take it anymore.

Allowing kids to have whatever they want and giving in to their whims creates spoiled children.Sadly, many spoiled children take that sense of entitlement into adulthood and become selfish ,uncaring adults who's only agenda and concern is for their own wants and desires.

We do our children a grave injustice when we do not give them lessons in accountability.
As adults they have one flawed relationship after another because they have no sense of others feelings.They have become so desensitized over the years of spoiling they are morally bankrupt.

Twenty is not too late to learn that you don't get by in this life by walking over people to get what you want.
Stand firm in your convictions and be sure they understand why you are taking the action you are.

Don't worry about your wife having a relationship with them right now.Trust is earned and once it is lost it is hard to get it back.
She may come around eventually but if she does not that should not prevent you from having a relationship with your kids,in the future ,when they prove they are deserving of a relationship.. Just don't fall back into their trap and manipulations.

I would like to know when OP met wife #2 and if she played a part in divorce from wife #1.

One question I have: could we specific examples of what the exwife and/or daughter are doing/have done that are so "manipulative" or "controlling"?

You keep saying that your exwife is "borderline"... borderline what? Depressed? Bi-polar?

One question I have: could we specific examples of what the exwife and/or daughter are doing/have done that are so "manipulative" or "controlling"?

You keep saying that your exwife is "borderline"....borderline what? Depressed? Bi-polar?

Borderline personality disorder. BPD.

I needed a little more info than what the initials mean and found this site: Borderline Personality Disorder - AOL Health (http://www.aolhealth.com/conditions/borderline-personality-disorder-major-1?flv=1)

Since the OP is a male...

A Shrink for Men (http://shrink4men.wordpress.com)

Sometimes we get a little miffed over always being used in examples as THE abuser

There is a difference in turning your back on someone and allowing yourself to be controlled and manipulated. Just because I'm a father does not mean I deserve to be taken advantage of. Children need to obey their parents and respect them first. There is a normal chain of command that works in normal society and also family relationships. The issue's we are having today is there are too many parents that have the mindset that they owe their children something but at some point a child becomes an adult and needs to have age appropriate behavior. The fact that I waiting to get divorced until my children were over 18 should say a lot of the type of person I'am

There is a difference in turning your back on someone and allowing yourself to be controlled and manipulated. Just because I'm a father does not mean I deserve to be taken advantage of. Children need to obey their parents and respect them first. There is a normal chain of command that works in normal society and also family relationships. The issue's we are having today is there are too many parents that have the mindset that they owe their children something but at some point a child becomes an adult and needs to have age appropriate behavior. The fact that I waiting to get divorced until my children were over 18 should say a lot of the type of person I'am

I agree with you newday, this is not a 'normal' family dynamic, and there are a number of difficult choices involved. There are people that have had no experience with the manipulation and control you describe, and may think that your daughter's behavior is just simply a matter of adjustment by all parties. Sadly, it is not so.

Your daughter is an adult and is capable of making her own choices now. She can choose to adjust to your new situation, or not. She has chosen to make your life difficult and although you can be understanding, ultimately, you cannot allow this to affect the new life you are forging. That is your choice.

Thank You Gemini , the sad fact is very few understand how bad living with a BPD type person is and the effect they have on everyone around them. If you take a person like my ex and then add a little religion just to be dangerous and then you might begin to imagine the horrors I've delt with. Many people still think maybe Hitler just need some counseling. People that never went through this do not know about the dark side of the human mind. They read and write on these cute sites and reada few books and think they know.

They read and write on these cute sites and reada few books and think they know.
This *cute site* as you refer to us has helped countless people and I believe you have been given quality opinions.

You may not agree with everyone but that is the nature of this open type of forum.

I would remind you that people here volunteer their time for no pay and often no gratitude.

You did come here after all and people did spend time answering you,I for one feel a tad insulted when you dismiss us as a *cute site*,it has a very derogatory ring to it.

I have found this site very helpful and as you can see I'm using it. I have tried others in the past and did not find them useful.
The world is full of many arm chair psychologist indeed and we need to take any advice and weigh it with many factors.
The point I was trying to make is if you read material on the boderline personality disorder and begin to understand how some people have lived then you can comment on why certain actions must be taken to protect yourself from these types of people. I'm truly sorry for offending you. It was not intentional.

There is a difference in turning your back on someone and allowing yourself to be controlled and manipulated. Just because I'm a father does not mean I deserve to be taken advantage of. Children need to obey their parents and respect them first. There is a normal chain of command that works in normal society and also family relationships. The issue's we are having today is there are too many parents that have the mindset that they owe their children something but at some point a child becomes an adult and needs to have age appropriate behavior. The fact that I waiting to get divorced until my children were over 18 should say a lot of the type of person I'am

I do agree with you in some aspects! I just think that some of your comments such as if you were to divorce your new wife, you could never forgive your daughter. It seemed like you already did choose your wife over your daughter. And, waiting till she was 18 to get re-married? Really? U thinks that makes a difference. I get it! Here in USA, once you are 18, you are an independent adult but that still does not affect your daughter's emotions and feelings towards you!

The way you criticized your daughter is still wrong. She might be at fault but you still should never talk bad about her especially to the public. That is between you and her! and you do need to DEAL with the problem than put all the blame on her and wash your hands clean! You as a father needs to try to work it out, if she does not budge, give her space to realize her mistakes...

And all the people who says about her having narcistic personality, really? U know her enough to say that? I believe one of the problems this world faces is that fathers not being around!

One more point. If you go online and look up spousal abuse more time than not you will find that men are the abusers. The law firms and court systems are being trained finally to recognize relationships in which the wife is actually the abuser. The husband becomes a co-dependant enabler of the bahavior and the children become very confused individuals. Once the pattern is in place it is very difficult to reverse. The main issue is that abusive people typically do not know they have a problem so they do not seek help. If they seek help they somehow convince the therapist that they are not the problem. These people can trick almost anyone. I have seen this first hand in many situations with my own dealings with these people.

One more point. If you go online and look up spousal abuse more time than not you will find that men are the abusers. The law firms and court systems are being trained finally to recognize relationships in which the wife is actually the abuser. The husband becomes a co-dependant enabler of the bahavior and the the children become very confused individuals. Once the pattern is in place it is very difficult to reverse. The main issue is that abusive people typically do not know they have a problem so they do not seek help. If they seek help they somehow convince the therapist that they are not the problem. These people can trick almost anyone. I have seen this first hand in many situations with my own dealings with these people.

Abusers are classic manipulators,that is part and parcel of their ability to charm their victim back into believing in them again and again.
The good news is there is a life after abuse and as a survivor myself I can assure you,it only gets better.

Like seriously dude... If you were the victim of abuse, I do symphasize with you! Nobody deserves to be treated like that!! However, your wife is out of the equation right? I mean you are re-married to someone else, I know it is difficult but for your daughter's sake, you should put that behind you. Besides, this is about what is between you and your daughter! Your wife was abusive and manipulative? Well, you should really get some professional help to get over it otherwise, you might not be able to have a relationship with your daughter all. You cannot categorize your daughter being like that! She is her own person and it seems like you are taking your feelings down on the wrong person.

I am not going to talk about your wife because that is not your main concern here. Your main concer in is your daughter.

I think you should definitely communicate with her rather than having a negative point of view on her actions and thoughts. If there are no changes, you should give her time and let her adjust to the changes. If you still act with mercy and kindness towards her, she will not feel much threatened. She needs her space which does not mean you can just point fingers.

You are a grown adult and you need to be able to sit your wife down and let her know that your daughter is a part of you and she needs to respect that. I do not think either your new wife or your daughter should create problems.

That is where you draw the line, and make boundaries. If you feel like there is no way your wife and your daughter can get along, then have a separate relationship with each of them.

Your daughter is 20 and I'm guessing she's living with you? You can help her find a place and help her to settle and still find time for her. Just father and daughter time! Your relationship with your new wife should be separate so each person, (both your daughter and wife can breathe and have personal space so conflict could be avoided.)

About the abusive thing with ex-wife. If it something you still have not moved on with and is effecting you, you really need to get help. Just because she's your ex-wife does not mean she's the past, she's still your daughter's mother so both of you guys need to respect each other and be able to communicate in peace!!

People that have not had direct experience with BPD/NPD often have difficulty understanding the toxic and pervasive extent of the abuse and its effect on every area of your life. (I used to be like you and shared your opinion that communication would solve all problems.)

These people do not respect 'peace' or 'communication' or other people's boundaries. At all! Ever! They take advantage of 'mercy' and 'kindness' and use it against you.

I would also suggest that if the OP were a woman and had been seriously abused by her husband, that you would not just tell her to 'get over it' and 'get some help'.

If you re-read the OP's post, you will find that he has already offered hinself on a silver platter to his Ex-wife and daughter, with little result except an intensification of the abuse.

No-one is suggesting he disown his daughter. We are simply suuggesting he create stronger boundaries and limit his contact until she can get her behavior under control. It's called tough love.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Gemini54 again.

Well Spoken Gemini... I'm not sure I would have been so eloquent so I'll just compliment you on your post.

The point about this threaded discussion is that people are able to express their opinions, just as you are.

I expressed an opinion about your post because I felt that you were limited in your understanding of the OP's position. You responded. That is a normal part of any discussion on this Forum and it is up to the OP to make up his mind whose opinion he wants to follow.

I might add that the OP is the one that has stated that his wife suffers from BPD and that his daughter is also exhibiting similar traits. I have taken my lead from his comments. No one is suggesting that he discontinue loving his daughter or disown her, but they are suggesting he place priority on saving his new marriage and create boundaries relating to his interactions with her.

The OP needs to show his daughter that he loves her, but that he won't take any $hit from her. That is the challenge.

Finally, I'd like to add that although I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist I have had a decades experience dealing with people that have BPD and NPD, so I do speak with some understanding - although I am still learning.

Finally, I'd like to add that although I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist I have had a decades experience dealing with people that have BPD and NPD, so I do speak with some understanding - although I am still learning

Lol... BPD and NPD (neither of the personality disorders) does not tie for one to be manipulative and controlling. NPD patients usually put too much pressure on themselves to make situations go their way, if something is out of their reach, they take it out on themselves not others. They feel their knowledge should be beyond their control. Most of the patients who reach this stage is due to prior conditioning such as extreme pressure to succeed either from outside sources such as parents, jobs, or inner dedication such as self dedication which becomes an obsession. (Not a stereotype: but it is common among second generation Asian Americans, certain foreign groups, and first generation college students especially among inner city kids; those listings are based on statistical analysis). BPD as well does not make the patient to be manipulative or cunning! When they are on their highs, it usually does not affect others in a negative way but still, they are not able to get things done; since, the expectations are unrealistic such as (ex: building a house within certain time) and when they are low, they view others are the cause to their problem, are very aggitated, and becomes depressed! BPD 1 and 2 deals with the stages of "high and low." If the child is manipulative, controlling, and cunning to get what she wants, most likely, she possess Anti-social personality disorder.

Lol... even though anti-social means one is not social (introvert), anti-social personality disorder does not tie to that.

I am just stating it from the symptoms! However, if that is the case, she herself needs to be evaluated by a psychologist not us (lol... ).

" No one is suggesting that he discontinue loving his daughter or disown her, but they are suggesting he place priority on saving his new marriage and create boundaries relating to his interactions with her."

I totally agree with you on forming a boundary. However, limiting interactions is not forming boundary; he still can speak to her on daily basis or however he does, but he needs to separate his new wife from his daughter and should not cave into whatever she says. If she becomes out of control because he does not listen to her commandments or whatever, then give her space! That should be the last option though...

I strongly believes she just feels threatened due to his new wife.

Did she act out the same way to her father before he became involved with the new women? His wife might have BP but that does not necessarily mean his daughter could have it too, that is an over generalized statement. It is true BP is inherited but that is not something the father should judge since, he is only judging based on the recent issues. The daughter is acting out (right after he gets re-married) so, just assume "Oh, she probably have BP like her mother!"?? Seriously, how rational is that??

The only thing we could conclude is she is being manipulative and controlling which is based from the father's statements.

I'm still waiting for examples of how the daughter is "manipulative" and "controlling." This clearly is putting a strain on his new marriage, yet he can't tell us anonymously what's going on?

Wow ! I never expected all of this. First off I'm not qualified to diagnose my daughter and label her with a borderline personality disorder. I was simply in the context of this forum using terms to explain to some of the people that it appeared understood what I was trying to say. My hope and prayer for my daughter is that she becomes a strong successful woman, I will never disown my daughter never have. I want to learrn what I could in a healthy way to deal with her and not let myself be manipulated. As far as examples of the manipulation ? Well there are many. I'm simply at this point wondering what it is that folks are trying to determine from examples. Is it that they do not believe that things have occurred to justify me trying to learn how to deal with a 20 year old that totally disrespects her father since middle school ? If I gave a really good example would they then look at what I have been struggling with and give me new advice because they "believe or see the situation now". The point is some people have wisdom and compassion and some do not. Some people have a desire to argue endless points when they forget what they are arguing about. So let me break it down. There are many emotional and psychological disorders. It matters to some what box to put a person into. What matters to me is living a healthy life and caring for the loved ones around me and to see them act and behave in a manner that is socially acceptable. My daughrer resents that her father has a new wife and is struggling to cope with the fact that her mother is very unstable and is caught in the middle and she has played us both to her advantage in many cases. So I want to learn how I can have boundries that make sense so I do not make the same mistakes.

Newday,

We ask for examples so that we can get a better picture of what is going on. It may help us in giving you more accurate advice.

I would like a Moderator to look at all of this.

I'm watching closely. ;)

Wow ! I never expected all of this. First off I'm not qualified to diagnose my daughter and label her with a borderline personality disorder. I was simply in the context of this forum using terms to explain to some of the people that it appeared understood what I was trying to say. My hope and prayer for my daughter is that she becomes a strong succesful woman, I will never disown my daughter never have. I want to learrn what I could in a healthy way to deal with her and not let myself be manipulated. As far as examples of the manipulation ? Well there are many. I'm simply at this point wondering what it is that folks are trying to determine from examples. Is it that they do not believe that things have occured to justify me trying to learn how to deal with a 20 year old that totally disrespects her father since middle school ? If I gave a really good example would they then look at what I have been struggling with and give me new advice becuase they "believe or see the situation now". The point is some people have wisdom and compassion and some do not. Some people have a desire to argue endless points when they forget what they are arguing about. So let me break it down. There are many emotional and psychological disorders. It matters to some what box to put a person into. What matters to me is living a healthy life and caring for the loved ones around me and to see them act and behave in a manner that is socially acceptable. My daughrer resents that her father has a new wife and is struggling to cope with the fact that her mother is very unstable and is caught in the middle and she has played us both to her advantage in many cases. So I want to learn how I can have boundries that make sense so I do not make the same mistakes.

Newday! First of all, you are so... right about the topic diverging from what you actually needed. It is difficult in a thread because for some reason, one would feel like supporting one's views.

After reading this, I feel like I understand what the dilemma is. The acutal problem you stated just seemed like you are just focusing all the negatives associated with your daughter and your new wife is the one who had to point it out to you. However, after reading this, I feel like I truly understand you.

Well, I just want to say that you are a great father for being around but, do not let her take advantage of you. I do feel sorry for her that she has to go through all this especially with an unstable mother and now she has to share her father with somebody else. But, she have no right to treat you like that! You should clearly state what your expectations are and the respect you deserve! She has to understand that she is an adult and have to form her own life than holding on to you but also explain to her that you do love her and will be there for her. Tell her the instances where she manipulated you and got away with it. She might think she is clever and you do not understand that you are being manipulated. Often, stating the cause and problem alerts the "abusers" to realize that the victim is in control now. (sorry but I still hate using that word, "abuser" to describe your daughter). You have to stand up not due to pressure from your wife, but for yourself and make her realize what she is doing. Most importantly, explain to her how she is manipulating you! Tell her how it is affecting you; you never know, she might not even realize she is doing it and might be sympathetic with you!

If she is still inconsiderate and disrespectful, tell her when she's ready to act as a mature adult and change her behavior, she is more than welcome to see you again. Although, this is your last resort. If she does not change her behavior, this is all you could do!

I read that she has been doing this to you since sixth grade? Well, you are the father and she is the daughter when it comes down to it. A father is not just a friend but also an authority figure, I just do not understand why you did not address this then and take charge. I know it is the past but over time, she probably unconsciously think it is the norm to treat you like this because she was never taught not to do so.

Anyway, this is the present and I am sure that you can make a difference in her by being supportive but also being firm and putting your feet down!

This thread has turned absurd, Newday, sorry you are the focus of this unfortunate debacle of a thread. Usually it is not like this.

It is very evident by your post that the Ex-wife had been undermining your parental efforts early on, and that is sad. Your 20yo Daughter never learned to respect you from the early stages in life.

Yes, you are doing a very good thing by demanding that the Daughter respect you and the life you are building post BPD/NPD.

This is one lesson that many many parents neglect to give their children... they seem to think that the child will just fly out of the nest on their own when many times if the nest is warm and well stocked with food and an Xbox or Wii, the child will just stay put. In Nature, the mother bird "pushes" the baby birds out of the nest.

Some Aging human females need to be needed and therefore are reluctant to push the last child to leave the home... and empty nest is a scary thing for a ~45 year old woman with a 33 year old mindset...

Yes, the daughter needs this very powerful lesson in life... Just because you are her father does not mean anything at this point in both your lives. (Sorry AcidAngel) If the Adult Child cannot learn to behave respectfully, you can no longer spank her, you can no longer send her to her room, you can no longer put her in time out... These repercussions are what we place on "children" when they act out. An Adult of any Gender needs to learn real quickly that if they are disrespectful in society, they will be shunned... and who better to teach that lesson than a father?

HolyAngel17, Thanks. I want you to know I read your various post and never was upset. I does not matter to me if you are old or young. The point is that you are trying to understand and for that you should be commended. I sense that you want to do the right things and when you have some knowledge you want to help others with it. Just understand that do not depend on anyone but yourself to promote your learning. In other words a smart person like yourself will gain much wisdom quickley by doing some homework on whatever it is. I will tell you though that the Bordeline Personality person is a tough one to put your mind around just by reading. I would almost venture to say that the people that understand the most lived with a person that had some of the traits.

Definitley "newday"! I do...

This thread has turned absurd, Newday, sorry you are the focus of this unfortunate debacle of a thread. Usually it is not like this.

It is very evident by your post that the Ex-wife had been undermining your parental efforts early on, and that is sad. Your 20yo Daughter never learned to respect you from the early stages in life.

Yes, you are doing a very good thing by demanding that the Daughter respect you and the life you are building post BPD/NPD.

This is one lesson that many many parents neglect to give their children.....they seem to think that the child will just fly out of the nest on their own when many times if the nest is warm and well stocked with food and an Xbox or Wii, the child will just stay put. In Nature, the mother bird "pushes" the baby birds out of the nest.

Some Aging human females need to be needed and therefore are reluctant to push the last child to leave the home....and empty nest is a scary thing for a ~45 year old woman with a 33 year old mindset....

Yes, the daughter needs this very powerful lesson in life......Just because you are her father does not mean anything at this point in both your lives. (Sorry AcidAngel) If the Adult Child cannot learn to behave respectfully, you can no longer spank her, you can no longer send her to her room, you can no longer put her in time out.......These repercussions are what we place on "children" when they act out. An Adult of any Gender needs to learn real quickly that if they are disrespectful in society, they will be shunned....and who better to teach that lesson than a father??


Very interesting you seem to have a lot of insight into what I have delt with. One point is for those that like examples. My daughter comes into my home for a 1 week visit that turns into three, I sit down with her and discuss what her plan is for employement and normal living things and her response is I just need this next few months to spend time with you dad. Keep in mind I have a family as well and a full time job and I work from home most of the time when I'm not traveling. So I tell her this is not acceptable. She needs to have a age appropriate routine and job. The whole conversation flips to I'm counting the days she has been here and it is my wife that wants to get between the relationship of me and my daughter. So as you can see where normal rational thinking works with most people these types of personalities are able to triangulate their way into getting their own way because most people have too many other things to deal with and just do not want to put their foot down with these people. Now after the blow out I'm still typing on this site and stressed and I can assure you she is fine and will act like nothing ever happened. If anyone saw the movie Obsessed recently they will know how the woman that was stalking the man in the movie would do something the man would clearly correct and try to deal with. The woman would come right back the next day and act like nothing happened and think he loves her. How does this relate ? Most normal people think like I did for years to deal with the people with love and talk it out. Well I went to over two years of marriage counseling only to finally get divorced. Why ? My ex who by the way has a huge influence over my daughter literally convinced the couselor that I was crazy. I came to every session and participated and listened. The Borderline personality (in my opinion) is highly adapted to change their personality as they see fit to work in a current setting to get what they want. Some might say this is a split personality. I tend to think this not correct. Borderlines may have mood swings but their personality is fairly constant. They are constantly working those around them covertly to make sure they have control. Plus they project whatever their warped thinking dreams up to the people around them. That is why some people call these types of people crazy makers.

Have you answered what part your second wife played in your divorce from your first wife - if any? I see that as important.

My second wife play no role in the divorce of my wife. My marriage was over for 5 years prior to separation due to financial problems and then I still in the last two years went through marriage counseling and decided to get divorced. I met my wife after all of this occurred. Because my wife was waging a legal battle against me she refused to sign any papers until she ran out of money. Money that she could have used for our children's college. My divorce dragged on and I was legally divorced after. My ex tried to accuse me of meeting multiple women during the marriage and was always acusing me. I was never unfaithful to my wife while we were together. She told both of my children that I new my new wife prior to leaving her and this was all lies.

Sorry I'm sorry the marriage was over 5 years prior and I could not afford to get divorced for financial reasons. Plus I decided to stay there for my children which I'm not sure if this was the best choice. I waited until they were over 18.

My second wife play no role in the divorce of my wife. My marriage was over for 5 years prior to seperation due to financial problems and then I still in the last two years went through marriage counseling and decided to get divorced. I met my wife after all of this occured. Due to the fact that my wife was waging a legal battle against me she refused to sign any papers until she ran out of money. Money that she could have used for our childrens college. My divorce dragged on and I was legally divorced after. My ex tried to accuse me of meeting multiple women during the course of the marriage and was always acusing me. I was never unfaithful to my wife while we were together. She told both of my children that I new my new wife prior to leaving her and this was all lies.

Please don't feel that you need to justify yourself. You're the one that lived with your Ex and now have to deal with your daughter. You're the one that had to put up with the lies, drama and manipualtion on a daily basis. I repeat what I said previously, that it's actually very difficult to understand the extent to which these disorders affect you, unless you live with them. And, in the end there is no living with them because it's crazy town on a daily basis.

The question you are asking is how to deal with an insecure, manipulative and demanding daughter who is creating havoc in your new marriage. Whether she has BPD/NPD is somewhat irrrelevant as she seems to have modelled her behavior on her mother's.

I'd like to share some of my experience...

My husband has daughters who are younger than yours (15 & 17), but similar. His ex wife has NPD and can be trusted with nothing. The daughters behave like their mother. We have dealt with my husband's daughters by being extremely firm, very clear about the rules in our household and by not putting up with any $hit whatsoever. After many years we have achieved a tenuous level of stability. My husband adores his daughters but is adhamant that it is their responsibility to manage their behavior and to be reasonable and respectful in our household. Firm persistence in our actions and responses seems to be the key rather than a lot of talking, as they only hear what they want to hear anyway.

We have noticed that any change tends to set off the manipulative, dramatic and controlling behavior, so I imagine that the change of you remarrying has destabilised your daughter and introduced another element into the equation - your new wife and her family. It's really important that she supports you to manage your daughter and for her not to take anything that she does (or says) personally. In my case, I had to work SO hard at curbing my tongue - it was a massive challenge at which I failed many times.

My husband and I have succeeded (somewhat) by being really united in our approach. His girls know that he loves them (despite what their mother tells them!) and they also know that he loves me and that our relationship is of paramount importance. They no longer try to sabotage it and we hope in the end that we will be a good example to them for their own relationships.

I don't know whether my husband's girls will grow out of their behavior, or whether you daughter will. Who can tell? What I do know is that we are not doing them any favours by tolerating bad behavior.

You now have the opportunity to do the things that you were unable to do when you were with your ex-wife. Tell you daughter you love her. Set limits. Be clear about what your boundaries are. Work with your new wife to manage your daughter. Don't be afraid to be tough. There will be resistance and recriminations but persistence is the key.

My husband has.......
Wait! @!
You are a woman??

I new there was a reason... ;)

Wait!!@!!
You are a woman??!?!?!?!

I new there was a reason.......;)

A reason for what Mr Ham? The 'great' advice I give - heh heh.

Woman's intuition don't you think?:p

My daughter joined the military. She is supposed to go to bootcamp in Jan 2010 (Coast Guard) I've been told that the military can help her learn respect and discipline. I hope they are correct.

My daughter joined the military. She is supposed to go to bootcamp in Jan 2010 (Coast Guard) I've been told that the military can help her learn respect and discipline. I hope they are correct.

Well that's going to be a challenge - for them and for her!

I think it is kind of comical. To think of how she will try to manipulate a drill sergeant. I personally feel she will or at least try.

This hot off the press from the ex. This is in response in me not giving in to my daughters latest outburst in which she told me that she wants nothing to do with me and my family because she was put in her place for not wanted to work at age 20 for 3 months before she goes to bootcamp. She wants to sit in her Pj's on the internet all day on Facebook.

This is from my ex
K... Our son was a love child. Our daughter thought out/planned. Yeh, as achristian,committed husband you f,d up,bur as YOU SAID,YOU WEREDIVORCING ME NOT YOUR KIDS... One of the reasons I fell in love w. u.is because I thought you had a big heart and would be a good dad... U wereclosest to?Your daughter. How can you b so cruel and write your own flesh and bloodoff when she needs you the most? How can you stand be for a holy God and bhave this way? Shame on u, racca!

WOW I think I need to sign off

My daughter joined the military. She is supposed to go to bootcamp in Jan 2010 (Coast Guard) I've been told that the military can help her learn respect and discipline. I hope they are correct.
My be the best thing.

This will be one of those times in life...

... "When I was 17 my Dad was the dumbest person on the face of the planet, When I was 23 I was amazed to find out how much he had learned in 5 short years........"

Badumpump

This hot off the press from the ex. This is in response in me not giving in to my daughters latest outburst in which she told me that she wants nothing to do with me and my family because she was put in her place for not wanted to work at age 20 for 3 months before she goes to bootcamp. She wants to sit in her Pj's on the internet all day on facebook.

This is from my ex
K...Our son was a love child. Our daughter thought out/planned. Yeh, as achristian,committed husband u f,d up,bur as YOU SAID,YOU WEREDIVORCING ME NOT YOUR KIDS...One of the reasons I fell in luv w. u.is because I thought u had a big heart n would b a good dad....U wereclosest to?Your daughter. How can u b so cruel n write ur own flesh n bloodoff when she needs u the most? How can u stand b 4 a holy God n bhave this way? Shame on u, racca!

Well, you should be used to the outbusts by now! Just ignore it. They always bring God into it. It's just the old aren't you an awful father, 'making you feel guilty' trick.

My be the best thing.

this will be one of those times in life......

....."When I was 17 my Dad was the dumbest person on the face of the planet, When I was 23 I was amazed to find out how much he had learned in 5 short years........"

Badumpump

Badabump indeed.

Thread cleaned up and re-opened.

We all have opinions, and there is no reason to knock those of others.

I will be brief, as a parent, your children follow your rules in your house, and if they cannot they can leave. 20 is to old to coddle for any reason, and if she cannot act in a respectful manner, she has to leave. I really don't care what problems she has as there is consequences to pay for bad behavior. To keep your home in order, sorry but the ladies (new wife, and daughter) should be kept apart, but doesn't mean you and her cannot have quality time together as she tries to grow up and find her way, but never at your home if she cannot behave, so that means you Dad, must lay the rules down, and enforce them. Its really that simple, but means, knowing how she is, nip the bad stuff in the bud before it even gets started. If she gets pizzed, thats just to bad as she is an adult, and should have her own thing going, anyway. Tough love its called.

Ignore the ex, thats the past, and is over.

Glad she is going to the army, but believe nothing until you see it, as honestly, it smells of another way to get you to back off, and I suspect you feel that way to.

Eventually I hope she does grow up, and see that its better to get along with her dad, and be in his life and just enjoy the time you have together.

Stay on her, you are her dad, even when your TEACHING her. Its a lifetime job with no short cuts.

Someone was asking for examples of the manipulation and dynamics between my daughter and I. Rather than my daughter pick up the phone and call to discuss she has had various people try to contact me. If I have given anyone the feeling that I enjoy or see this as a game I appologize. I do not mind if this closed as well since many have given me good advice. I really appreciate the help. I felt very alone and this has really helped me look within myself to see where I need to change to help my daughter. Also to be a good man and father and husband.

I will close this thread by your own request, but hope we helped somewhat in giving you some suggestions and support. Hope it works out, and you update us as to what's going on in your life.

Thanks for sharing.