Hello all:

Recently I have been struggling with the idea of abstinence. I have been with my boyfriend for a year and we have been intimate with each other. He is the only man I have been with.

I have been told my whole life that "sex before marriage is a sin!" "you MUST wait until marriage or else you will get pregnant, get an std, cause serious emotional pain, ruin your future marriage!"

Most of my life I have abided by this view, until being with my boyfriend. But recently I have been drawing closer to God, and the fact that me and my boyfriend have sex was something I wanted to seriously reconsider and research. So I looked it up in the Bible. I looked up every verse I could possibly find that had to do with sex, sexual immorality, and marriage.

And surprisingly, I have not found ONE word saying you must wait until marriage to have sex. Rather, there are many many verses talking about sexual immorality (Acts 15:20; 1Corinthians 5:1; 6:13, 18; 10:8; 2 Corinthians 12:21; Galatians 5:19; Ephesians 5:3; Colossians 3:5; 1 Thessalonians 4:3; Jude 7).

Generally, sexual immorality is referred to as sex with relatives, animals, those of the same sex, sex as a religious ceremony/worship, and sex with strangers/casual sex.

So I'm going to throw out this theory, and I'm sure there will be many of you screaming about it, but what if the Bible in all it's glory isn't saying you absolutely HAVE to wait until marriage, but rather that it is much MUCH better if you do? Avoid sexual immorality such as sleeping around with everyone, abusing your body in sex with people you should not be having sex with, etc?

I just know there is never a commandment stated "Wait until marriage to have sex." Just a lot of verses about avoiding sexual immorality. Keeping your body as a temple. Is having sex with someone you are deeply in love with and committed to a sin? I just don't see it in the Bible.

Also: in the Old Testament, there are commands that a woman must be a virgin before marriage. Isn't this a tradition so the father would know without a doubt his children were carrying on his lineage? Because heredity and lineage were of the utmost importance in ancient times. There is never a word saying the male must be a virgin before marriage.

I'm looking forward to hear your comments! :-)

P.S.
I believe God views sex as an intimate, binding act between two people.
I never mean to say that sex should be viewed as anything less than that.
Which is why, most definitely, the best way to go is to wait until marriage.
But if two people are going to get married, is it wrong to have sex before the official government signing of papers or the family ceremony?
Just wanting to hear people's thoughts!

I think when we meet the right person and we are in love ,that it is a gift from God.
I don't think a paper sanctions that.Commitment comes from the heart and a marriage is a contract made in love not law.
There is a huge leap between promiscuity and giving yourself wholly to one person.
I do not think it is a sin.

Of course there is nothing wrong with sex before marriage. People don't need a license to have sex, which is all the notion of marriage ever was anyway. It's an anachronism that belongs with all the rest of the garbage in the bible.

If you want to find moral teaching the last place to find it is in a book written by ignorant Middle Eastern sheepherders who thought the earth was flat and feared they didn't know who their true fathers were, which is why they adopted their repressive anti-sex moral code. They also thought that slavery and genocide were moral, just to show you how wacko they were.

I realize this is the Christian board,but we seem to have similar value systems I would like to comment on this.

I think the reason why the Almighty sent the rule sex before marriage as something disliked and/or prohibited is ;

For one thing it leads to so many social problems, single parenthood- which is one of the hardest things considering the hard work it takes to earn a little money and it is all gone in an instant and we want the best for our kids.
Another thing is that many babies are abandoned whether into the social system or they are neglected while living at home with the parents because they were/are not ready for a baby or never wanted that much of a commitment.
These babies grow up to be sometimes messed up adults and what happens to them?They either destroy their lives or others or spend parts of their lives in jails,detention centres. I am not generalizing, some do survive hard family lives and come out better than some well looked after kids too.
The diseases related to promiscuity or having multiple partners, one of them being AIDs.
Abortions because many couples are ready to have a relationship but do not want the burden of a baby.

When we look at the bigger picture, casual sex does lead to a lot of problems which has far reaching consequences which I think is the reason that such a moral standard is required of the believers.

Of course there is nothing wrong with sex before marriage. People don't need a license to have sex, which is all the notion of marriage ever was anyway. It's an anachronism that belongs with all the rest of the garbage in the bible.

If you want to find moral teaching the last place to find it is in a book written by ignorant Middle Eastern sheepherders who thought the earth was flat and feared they didn't know who their true fathers were, which is why they adopted their repressive anti-sex moral code. They also thought that slavery and genocide were moral, just to show you how wacko they were.

Hi Cadillac:

I totally get what you are saying, but the majority of stuff written about sexual immorality, that a lot of Christians base their views on, is in the New Testament, which was written by fairly educated men around 46-70 AD, definitely not ignorant people. I'm not talking so much about the Old Testament, which was written by the Middle Eastern sheepherders :-)

Also, EVERYbody in that time thought the earth was flat and found it important to know who their father was. And, most everybody also thought slavery and genocide were moral. Slavery and genocide have been part of nearly every culture.
Honestly, the Old Testament does have a lot of rules and guidelines that seem odd to us, but in those ancient times, they were very progressive and a good way to keep people from making bad choices, to keep an upright society. I know that some of it seems harsh and unfair, but this was all before the atoning blood of Jesus came to make those stringent rules unnecessary.

I myself sometimes am left wondering "Why was God so cruel in those ancient times? Why did he call for a girl to be stoned simply because she was found to not be a virgin when she got married?"
I don't pretend to understand it completely, but I trust God and know ultimately He has, and had, our greatest good at heart.
It takes a leap of faith, that's for sure.
I appreciate your comment though, Cadillac!
Wishing you a beautiful day,
Ashriel

p.s. maybe I'll start a separate thread here in Christianity about the angry, violent, rule-enforcing God of the Old Testament versus the loving, compassionate one of the New Testament. I've often wondered about that. :-)

Ash,

Sweetie, you know as a Christian I could never advise you to do something that God said NO to. The Bible is clear as crystal on the issue. God says what he means and he means what he says.

I battled this when I was a young woman in my 20's and madly in love.( or so I thought) I wanted it to be OK. I even sought other so called believers who would tell me it was OK. I knew the ones to consult and the ones NOT to consult.. ha.

I believe and have experienced when you go outside of God's word you only harm yourself. There are many reasons not to have sex before you marry. People will give you many reasons you SHOULD have sex outside of marriage. But if you believe that God made you, knows you intimately and is only looking out for your good then you are going to have to trust Him in this matter.

It isn't the answer you wanted but according to the Bible... it is the correct one. AND.. one last thought. Obedience to the word of God always brings blessing... evidently. Disobedience always brings regret or worse.

Personally I see nothing wrong with sex before marriage. If you're in love, aren't sleeping around, then where in the bible is that wrong?

A marriage certificate doesn't make you any more committed then you are now, it's just binds you together legally.

Of course, if you're really this worried about it, just get married. Problem solved. :)

Personally I see nothing wrong with sex before marriage. If you're in love, aren't sleeping around, then where in the bible is that wrong?

A marriage certificate doesn't make you any more committed then you are now, it's just binds you together legally.

Of course, if you're really this worried about it, just get married. Problem solved. :)

Yes, and what is a "marriage" anyway? What makes it so? Must it be legally sanctioned in your jurisdiction to count? What about a civil marriage, no priest or pastor involved, do they count? Why if marriage has this important Christian meaning to it (i.e. to legitimize sex, which is all it does in this religion and others)?

It's all nonsense and crazy. Listening to what some religious nuts thought 2000 years ago and saying we have to follow it today.

I have debated deleting Cadillac answers since he is misleading people greatly, He is not a christian and giving people non christian answers.

He tells you what the world believes and teaches and not what the bible teaches.

I have debated deleting Cadillac answers since he is misleading people greatly, He is not a christian and giving people non christian answers.

He tells you what the world beleives and teaches and not what the bible teaches.

Are you afraid of the possibility that some people may change their minds about what they believe?

Yes, and what is a "marriage" anyway? What makes it so? Must it be legally sanctioned in your jurisdiction to count? What about a civil marriage, no priest or pastor involved, do they count? Why if marriage has this important Christian meaning to it (i.e., to legitimize sex, which is all it does in this religion and others)?

It's all nonsense and crazy. Listening to what some religious nuts thought 2000 years ago and saying we have to follow it today.

I can only assume that marriage back then meant a lot more then it does now.

Nowadays people get divorced at the drop of a hat, yes, even Christians.

So, you can have multiple sex partners because you married all of them.

How is that any different then pre-marital sex? If you don't stay with the one person
Does it really matter if you had a piece of paper saying that you're legally bound to
Each other?

I have debated deleting Cadillac answers since he is misleading people greatly, He is not a christian and giving people non christian answers.

He tells you what the world beleives and teaches and not what the bible teaches.

Fr_Chuck,

I actually agree with you. I even suggested that if someone really wanted to answer the question and wasn't a Christian than they should at least say so up front. I was given a big fat reddie for THAT thought by an "expert" on AMHD. Lol It was just my opinion but apparently it wasn't a popular one.

Are you afraid of the possibility that some people may change their minds about what they believe?

Caddy,

I can only speak for myself... I'm not afraid someone will change their mind about what they believe. NOT AT ALL. I just think when someone posts a question on the Christian board and they specify they want a christian answer, that you should let them know up front that what you have to offer for an answer.. isn't "Christian" or in any way biblical.

I can only assume that marriage back then meant a lot more then it does now.

Nowadays people get divorced at the drop of a hat, yes, even Christians.

So, you can have multiple sex partners because you married all of them.

How is that any different then pre-marital sex? If you don't stay with the one person
does it really matter if you had a piece of paper saying that you're legally bound to
eachother?

Alty,

The God of the Bible says not to have sex before marriage. Even if we as humans don't see the importants of a piece of legal paper between couples, God apparently DOES. Divorce is another issue and there are guidelines for Christians concerning divorce too.

According to the Lord it all matters to him. I think Christians and Non Christians take it too lightly. I know I have.

Ashriel,

Look up all the references to "fornication".

Now look up the definition of "fornication".

You now have your answer.

Gal,

EXACTLY! The thing is when we have are will set on something we want... we have a tendency to want to rewrite the Bible or pull it out of context or say it has no validity because the book is so old and outdated. But God's mind still hasn't changed on the issue of sin. I have to remind myself of this too.

Ashriel,

Look up all the references to "fornication".

Now look up the definition of "fornication".

You now have your answer.


Actually, my Bible doesn't have the word "fornication" in it.
It talks a lot about "sexual immorality" instead.
I have the NIV version.

Actually, my Bible doesn't have the word "fornication" in it.
It talks a lot about "sexual immorality" instead.
I have the NIV version.

Too bad you are using a less reliable Bible, but fornication is certainly included under "sexual immorality".

I agree with ClassyT. I believe God created intimacy to be shared between a husband and a wife. It was designed by Him to be something beautiful to share with your husband/wife. What happens if a person thinks that each boyfriend or girlfriend is "the one" and they share sex with them. It is no longer beautiful or special.

Hebrews 13:4 (NIV) says that Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.

We can't go around trying to make the Bible say what we want it to just to accommodate our needs. Sexual immorality covers everything from sexual immoral thoughts to the act itself outside of marriage.

We can always depend upon God to give us the RIGHT answer if we will only ask Him and then wait. He is known for His perfect answers that line up with His Word. When in doubt, always, always ask God. Rita

I really don't think a piece of paper should be the definition of marriage. Alty was right, Even when people do get married, they can fall out of love very quickly and divorce. Does that mean that their sex was a sin? If two people are wholly devoted to one another, God will recognized that as well. Sure sometimes people will "re writed the bible"
But guess what? Every denomination of christianity interprets the bible differently in one way or another, that may conflict with another way of believeing. Everyone re-writes the bible.

Too bad you are using a less reliable Bible, but fornication is certainly included under "sexual immorality".

Ummm... less reliable Bible?
I'm choosing to ignore that statement. What exactly is a reliable version to you? Original Greek scrolls?

:confused:

Ashriel, the problem with organized religion is that everyone thinks their way is the only way.

You have to follow your own path. If that path includes the bible, then fine, you have to decide what it says, just like everyone else.

Everyone on this site, everyone you meet will tell you what they think they bible says.

This is the reason that I believe in God but don't follow the bible.

Ashriel, the problem with organized religion is that everyone thinks their way is the only way.

You have to follow your own path. If that path includes the bible, then fine, you have to decide what it says, just like everyone else.

Everyone on this site, everyone you meet will tell you what they think they bible says.

This is the reason that I believe in God but don't follow the bible.

This sounds strange to me.

Quick! Tell me what you know about Yaweh or Jesus WITHOUT referencing the Bible. What other source do you have?

This sounds strange to me.

Quick! Tell me what you know about Yaweh or Jesus WITHOUT referencing the Bible. What other source do you have?

What other source?

My beliefs, that's what.

I believe that God, along with science, created the earth, but after that he just sat back and watched.

He doesn't interfere with his creation. Why would he, he's God.

I've read the bible, I went to Catholic school for 10 years and that was enough to convince me that it's just a well written (although often contradictory) book written by men and what they believe.

The ten commandments, for instance, are a great reference, good rules to live by. Sadly, the majority of people break at least one if not more in their lifetime.

Heck, Christians break a commandment every time they go to church and worship in a building with statues of Jesus on the cross. Or do you not know that commandment?

Still confused? I'm a Deist.

What other source?

My beliefs, that's what.

I believe that God, along with science, created the earth, but after that he just sat back and watched.

He doesn't interfere with his creation. Why would he, he's God.

I've read the bible, I went to Catholic school for 10 years and that was enough to convince me that it's just a well written (although often contradictory) book written by men and what they believe.

Give ma a scrap of evidence to prove this statement.

The ten commandments, for instance, are a great reference, good rules to live by. Sadly, the majority of people break at least one if not more in their lifetime.

Have you not read that our God forgives those who ask for forgiveness?

Heck, Christians break a commandment every time they go to church and worship in a building with statues of Jesus on the cross. Or do you not know that commandment?

Still confused? I'm a Deist.

I'm not confused. You are.

You attended a Catholic school, read the Bible, etc, and you claim they did not influence your beliefs, or influence your thinking?

Without the Bible you would have no idea of what Yaweh or Jesus are like. You might be only dimly aware that there even IS any god of any kind.

You could, of course, look at the universe and realize that there had to be a creator though you would know nothing about His character.

As to your reference to statues, I am one of millions of Christians who do NOT worship in a building with statues, candles, etc.

I'm not confused. You are.

You attended a Catholic school, read the Bible, etc, and you claim they did not influence your beliefs, or influence your thinking?

Without the Bible you would have no idea of what Yaweh or Jesus are like. You might be only dimly aware that there even IS any god of any kind.

You could, of course, look at the universe and realize that there had to be a creator though you would know nothing about His character.

As to your reference to statues, I am one of millions of Christians who do NOT worship in a building with statues, candles, etc.


The bible has nothing to do with my beliefs, believe what you want.

You're going off topic.

I will not discuss my beliefs with you, or why I believe what I do.

I have no desire to argue about who's right and who's wrong. Believe what you
Want, that's your right, as it is my right to believe what I choose.

This is the same old song and dance. We've been her before and gotten no where,
So why go there again?

I'm not confused. You are.

You attended a Catholic school, read the Bible, etc, and you claim they did not influence your beliefs, or influence your thinking?

Without the Bible you would have no idea of what Yaweh or Jesus are like. You might be only dimly aware that there even IS any god of any kind.

You could, of course, look at the universe and realize that there had to be a creator though you would know nothing about His character.

As to your reference to statues, I am one of millions of Christians who do NOT worship in a building with statues, candles, etc.

It sound like he/she is a deist. What's so strange about that? The founding fathers of the US were mostly deists, which is one reason they were able to put together a fairly decent government. You don't need to believe in Yahweh or whatever you call it to believe in a god.

It sound like he/she is a deist. What's so strange about that? The founding fathers of the US were mostly deists, which is one reason they were able to put together a fairly decent government. You don't need to believe in Yahweh or whatever you call it to believe in a god.

You keep making the false claim that the fathers of the US were mostly Deists.

I have posted more than once the religious affiliations of the founding fathers, and there were only two or three Deists among them. Get your facts straight.

Off topic, of course.

You keep making the false claim that the fathers of the US were mostly Deists.

I have posted more than once the religious affiliations of the founding fathers, and there were only two or three Deists among them. Get your facts straight.

Off topic, of course.
Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine were definitely not Christians. They were all too smart for that. Deists at best.

Ashriel my belief is that our bodies, our souls, our minds, and our spirits are the temple of God, regardless of human religious labels we may call ourselves in the end it is our beliefs and our dedication to God, as we still belong to Him and Him alone, as we were all created by Him. So who knows if there were actually scriptures that were also directed to men to also keep themselves pure. As it could have been written there long ago and no longer present since the bible has gone through numerous of changes, additions, alterations, and deletions, and continuously being rewritten throughout the centuries for various reasons.

Sex goes beyond the being physical, as it is also deeply spiritual, souful, and psychological. When two people choose to have sex, their spirits are now intertwined. The world will pressure you and say that it does not matter, but it does matter and it can also come with a cost for both man and woman as God will judge us equally as we all must follow the Ten Commandments and is considered a sin.

Most of the 8 bibles I have use the word fornication which is sex before marriage.
In the bible it says that fornication is immoral before God.
That is do believe.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Ummm...less reliable Bible?
I'm choosing to ignore that statement. What exactly is a reliable version to you?? Original Greek scrolls?

:confused:

Why are you choosing to ignore that statement? Do you think that all translations of the Bible are equally valid? The fact that you are asking the question about sex before marriage not being in the Bible shows that version of the Bible that you use does NOT translate the original Greek word "porneia" to "fornication" - which predominantly means sex before marriage, but can include other forms of illicit sexual behaviour.

Instead it uses the term "sexual immorality". I personally think that this phrase is a bad choice for the translation as what is considered sexually immoral can vary greatly between individuals and societies and even changes with time. This leads to people like you thinking that it is OK to "throw out this theory" of premarial sex when it is strictly against God's plan for humankind.

We have the commandment of adultery, and if you review
(Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart)

The Word of God teaches us the laws of sin. Review this video:
The Way of the Master (http://www.wayofthemaster.com/hbks.shtml)

The disciple Paul feared, lest by any means as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. (1 Corinthians 11:3)


Have you been beguiled, would be the question to answer..

The word adultery IS found in most if not all majorly accepted version of the bible as sndbay pointed out.
That also includes the word fornication or fornicate.
The bible does say that sex before marriage is a sin.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

The word adultery IS found in most if not all majorly accepted version of the bible as sndbay pointed out.
That also includes the word fornication or fornicate.
The bible does say that sex before marriage is a sin.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Adultery is defined as being married, and having sex with someone other than your spouse. I'm not married and neither is my love, so we cannot be defined as adulterers.

So if I'm having sex with the man I'll be with forever, the first man I've ever had sex with, the person I am committed to for life, I find it hard to think that is wrong. And no, we aren't financially and economically recognized as legally married.

I totally believe sexual immorality is wrong. I believe adultery is wrong. I believe twisting the wonderful creation of sex to anything less than a celebration of love and intimacy is wrong.

There was a time a long time ago that I met up with random guys and went too far with them, almost to sex but not quite. That was incredibly wrong, disgusting, and immoral. That was taking sex and throwing it into the dirt, using it as something lustful and selfish.

I believe there is evidence that God views the sexual act itself as the marriage. When two people come together and have sex for the first time, with each other, they are married in the eyes of God. They have become one flesh.

In Biblical times, during Jewish wedding ceremonies, sex was marriage. All that needed to be worked out were the legal and financial consequences.

I have been praying and reading the Word and thinking about this a lot.
I know that I don't want to move in together with my love before we get married. Because I want that to be something special in our marriage. But then I think, perhaps sex should be something that is special in marriage as well? But what if we are already married in God's eyes because we have had sex?

I don't know, I'm mostly just really confused about this.
On the one hand, I can't feel bad about having sex with the love of my life, just because our situations don't allow for marriage right now.
On the other, I want to make our future marriage the best it can be, and perhaps waiting for the signing of the papers, making a marriage in the eyes of the government, would be best. Waiting until we have spoken those words of commitment, forever.

And, we have tried waiting, and it was incredibly difficult. Going from two people who give freely, 100% of themselves to each other, to holding back, is difficult.

Okay, question for the Christians on this board and no, I'm not trying to stir the poo, I seriously don't know and would like your views on this.

Back when the bible was written there were no legal documents to pronounce marriage, so what did a couple have to do to be considered married?

Was a ceremony performed, Were there witnesses? Was something signed, or did they just pronounce their intentions toward each other and that was that?

I think that this is something to keep in mind. After all, in today's world marriage is more of a legal thing, something people do in order to combine assets, raise children with the same last name, etc. etc. Many times religion doesn't even enter into it, so what about those people who aren't married before God but married in a courthouse? The definition of marriage is very important here.

So, what does the bible mean when it says no sex before marriage? What constitutes marriage?

Okay, question for the Christians on this board and no, I'm not trying to stir the poo, I seriously don't know and would like your views on this.

Back when the bible was written there were no legal documents to pronounce marriage, so what did a couple have to do to be considered married?

Was a ceremony performed, Were there witnesses? Was something signed, or did they just pronounce their intentions toward each other and that was that?

Scripture has it written in Luke 2 that Caesar Augustus, enforced that all the world should be taxed. So man was registered according to their land, lineage, and family. This type of registering was held record to all families, and included the family plus birth of Christ Jesus.

Before the time frame of the NT, what is written of according to scripture is the laws of God. And a wife was betroth

The priesthood was known to the Levites, and all tribes were not to marry outside their own lineage. (However this was a problem, and was so called a curse for not doing the Will of God)

We can also read of weddings, and invitations to a wedding, that examples there was a gathered celebration, with witnesses ect..

I hope this will help in someway to answer the question in mind.





I think that this is something to keep in mind. After all, in today's world marriage is more of a legal thing, something people do in order to combine assets, raise children with the same last name, etc. etc. Many times religion doesn't even enter into it, so what about those people who aren't married before God but married in a courthouse? The definition of marriage is very important here.

So, what does the bible mean when it says no sex before marriage? What constitutes marriage?

I trust God would recognize a joining of two, as to lie with one another as the scripture does say. But it does say to build a house or live as one joined.

HOWEVER what constitutes sin or adultery? If you are seriously looking to the scripture and word of God then we have to reference: (Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart)

I believe there is evidence that God views the sexual act itself as the marriage. When two people come together and have sex for the first time, with each other, they are married in the eyes of God. They have become one flesh.


This is not true.

Deuteronomy 22:13 If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her,

Shows that a couple are considered married before they have sex with each other.

Also if what you assert was true, then fornication (sex before marriage) would not exist, but as shown in many of the previous responses, many translations of the Bible use the word fornication and describe God detesting it.



I know that I don't want to move in together with my love before we get married. Because I want that to be something special in our marriage. But then I think, perhaps sex should be something that is special in marriage as well?? But what if we are already married in God's eyes because we have had sex?


It appears that you place sharing a house together more highly than sharing yourself. Surely the most important and special thing that a husband and wife can give each other is each other in body, mind and spirit? There is no perhaps about it!



On the one hand, I can't feel bad about having sex with the love of my life, just because our situations don't allow for marriage right now.
On the other, I want to make our future marriage the best it can be, and perhaps waiting for the signing of the papers, making a marriage in the eyes of the government, would be best. Waiting until we have spoken those words of commitment, forever.


Why doesn't your situation allow for marriage right now?
And yes, speaking the words of commitment, publicly and in front of God is what constitutes a marriage, a covenant between two people.

(Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart)

Then every man I know has committed adultery.

As for the rest, yes, that is what I was looking for. Does the courthouse marriage count though?

Deu 22:28-29 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

Then every man I know has committed adultery.

True, and is why God send HIS begotten Son to show us the way.



As for the rest, yes, that is what I was looking for. Does the courthouse marriage count though?

Count to whom?

The Church = NO

To their family? =

To mans law? =

To them? =

Edit: Let me add there is one judge in the end..

Alty,

It depended on their cultures. Even back in Jesus time when He met the woman at the well and told her to call her husband. She replied I don't have one. He told her that was a true statement because she has had 5 of them and the man she was with at that time wasn't her husband. I believe every culture has had a way to marry whatever the process was. I absolutely believe that a courthouse marriage is just as valid as a church marriage. In our culture today having a legal document is how we define a legal marriage. If the courts are happy with it... I believe God considers it valid.

classyT,
I do not believe that.
I do not believe that a godless marriage is in God's favor.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

classyT,
I do not believe that.
I do not believe that a godless marriage is in God's favor.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

What defines godless to your statement?

I recently attended a beautiful ceremony done by a Catholic notary, who was certified by state law to perform weddings. The ceremony was done with God's presences, and blessing requested, and the bride and groom wrists were joined by two braided ribbon in which both mother of the bride, and mother of the groom, had draped prior from their necks. Every prayer, scripture, and song that was heard came from the heart of both bride and groom. AND all were gathered together to witnesses what God joins from within their hearts to be one.

It is very important to understand that neither fornicators nor adulterers will
enter the kingdom of heaven,1 cor6:9-10 In today's world, the term fornication
is rarely used and immorality between unmarried people is commonly accepted as a lifestyle. But immorality, however commonplace, is a sin that will keep millions of people out of heaven, unless they repent. Paul also said this is a sin against the body.
1Cor. 6;18-20 "So run away from sexual sin. Every other sin people do is outside their bodies, but those who sin sexually sin against their own bodies. You schould know that your body is a temple for the Holy Spirit who is in you. You have received the Holy Spirit
from God. So you do not belong to yourself, because you were bought by God for a price. So honor God with your body". You should check yourself to see if you have the "Holy Spirit" in you, if you are reading
the bible, it sounds like you do not understand what it is telling you.

I pray the Lord will give you understanding of His Word.

Maggie 3

It is very important to understand that neither fornicators nor adulterers will


Maggie 3

You realize that this is nearly half of the worlds population AT LEAST. That's a lot of discrimination for a God who loves us so much.

Matthew 7:13&14" Enter though the narrow gate. The gate is wide and the road is wide
that leads to hell, and many people enter through that gate. 14, But the gate is small and the road is narrow that leads to true life. Only a few people find that road."

I guess it won't be crowded in heaven unless one repents before their time runs out.

Maggie 3

Matthew 7:13&14" Enter though the narrow gate. The gate is wide and the road is wide
that leads to hell, and many people enter through that gate. 14, But the gate is small and the road is narrow that leads to true life. Only a few people find that road."

I guess it wont be crowded in heaven unless one repents before their time runs out.

Maggie 3

This is why I don't know if I even believe in God.
Quoting the bible does NOTHING for me.
PEOPLE wrote it. And PEOPLE change it.

Bet it feels good knowing that there's "more room for you"

I don't think heaven can even BE crowded, it's supposed to be infinite.

To each their own.

I choose to believe in God, He gave me an
Offer I could not refuse.

Maggie 3

sndbay,
What you described was not a Godless marriage to my way of thinking.
God was invited to be present there.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

sndbay,
What you described was not a Godless marriage to my way of thinking.
God was invited to be present there.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

From what scripture says we are to obey the laws of our governement, which would include obtaining a marriage licence for legel permission. Would God count the marriage or joining of two by this legel process, the answer would be yes.

What you are saying in a godless ceremony or marriage has more to do with the individual's belief then whether the marraige counts. The marriages does count but their lives are absence from hope of salvation without God in their lives.

Do you see a difference? We can't discern the marriage as wrong when it follows the law of governement. What is in discernment is their belief not to include God in their lives and at the wedding.

I respect your beliefs, I really do, but keep in mind that the bible was written a very long time ago, a very different time then today.

How can you hope to follow the rules of that time when it has no basis on present day circumstances?

Back then they had slaves, we don't now. Back then, if your were pregnant and not married you were stoned to death, not now. The living conditions, the way they treated women, slaves, everything has changed.

How can you take the preachings of a book that is 1000's of years old and apply it to life now?

How can you take the preachings of a book that is 1000's of years old and apply it to life now?

Because no matter what life was then or what life is today, it's not the best that is possible.. There is a better life.. a perfect life ahead.. A life that Our Father the Creator of the world prepared for us from the foundation of the world. The Word of God is the promise of all that Our Father has given us, what we need in FAITH to obtain HIS hope for us to inherit the Kingdom of God.

Without the hope given in forgiveness, without the love of God, and without eternal life, How would we have any hope for that better life or eternal life?

Because no matter what life was then or what life is today, it's not the best that is possible.. There is a better life.. a perfect life ahead.. A life that Our Father the Creator of the world prepared for us from the foundation of the world. The Word of God is the promise of all that Our Father has given us, what we need in FAITH to obtain HIS hope for us to inherit the Kingdom of God.

Without the hope given in forgiveness, without the love of God, and without eternal life, How would we have any hope for that better life or eternal life?

That's were our beliefs differ. I don't believe in a God that intervenes with the humans or the earth that he created. I do believe that God had a hand in creating this world, but then he walked away, left us to our own devices.

I also don't believe that the bible is the word of God, it was written by men that claimed that God spoke to them. If someone did that today they'd be locked up in an Asylum.

I don't hope for a better life after this one. I hope for a great life now, while I'm alive and able to enjoy it. I don't think God would put us here to prove something to him. I don't see how the God of the bible, the loving God you all believe in, could make his creations suffer as much as he does. That's why I'm a Deist.

I also have to point out that your God, the God of the bible, is supposed to be a very forgiving God, so wouldn't he forgive someone that had sex before marriage?

This is why organized religion is not for me, because it makes no sense.

ohsohappy, & Altenweg
Time does change, but God amd His Word does no change. That's why we can depend
On Him. Phil. 2:19 & 11 "So that every knee will bow to the name of Jesus--
everone in heaven, on earth, and under the earth. 11 And everyone will confess that
Jesus Christ is Lord and bring glory to God the Father."

Maggie 3

ohsohappy, & Altenweg
Time does change, but God amd His Word does no change. Thats why we can depend
on Him. Phil. 2:19 & 11 "So that every knee will bow to the name of Jesus--
everone in heaven, on earth, and under the earth. 11 And everyone will confess that
Jesus Christ is Lord and bring glory to God the Father."

Maggie 3

That's why you can "depend on him" because you believe in the bible. I don't.

That's neither here nor there though, seeing as that's not the question the OP asked.

Surely you do have to take into consideration that 2009 is very far removed from the time of the bible.

There are writings in the bible about punishing a slave. Should we adhere to those writings as well? Wouldn't it be hard, seeing as there are no longer slaves?

I have at least 10 friends and a whole lost of relatives that would have been stoned to death, because of the bible.

Either you follow it to the letter or you make allowances. I think that sex before marriage is not clearly defined in the bible, also, the times back then were very different. The year, the people, the way we live, that has to be taken into consideration.

You wouldn't follow the advice of a book written in the 1950's because those concerns, the things they wrote about, no longer apply to our lives in 2009. Same thing with the bible. In my opinion.

I don't know the book, chapter and verse but somewhere it says in the KJ version "That if a man deflowers a virgin let him mary her"

My view is if two people in love and that are going to spend their lives together then they are already married.

letmetellu,
Perhaps so, but not legally.
Fred

letmetellu,
Perhaps so, but not legally.
Fred

But the OP isn't talking about legal marriage, she's talking about spiritual marriage, the joining of two people that love each other and know that they'll be spending the rest of their lives together.

No, there is no legal document saying that they're married.

I thought this was about spirituality, belief, God. God doesn't enter into legalities, or does he?

Altenweg,
Well... that depends on how you look at it.
Perhaps I should have said licit.
I believe that in God's eyes a marriage that does not include Him spiritually is illicit.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I don't know the book, chapter and verse but somewhere it says in the KJ version "That if a man deflowers a virgin let him mary her"

My view is if two people in love and that are going to spend their lives together then they are already married.

I agree. Also with Altenweg.

I think there needs to be flexibility with God's word, because we do live in completely different times. I think there are specific, all-encompassing messages in the Bible that cross cultures and time frames, and those are the things we need to focus on as Christians. Loving God with every part of us, loving others with every part of us, and being the people God made us to be.
I believe that as long as we operate in love, truth, compassion, and wisdom, we are following the right path. As long as we know Jesus and His great sacrifice for us, and we try to mirror that great love in our own lives, I think we are getting it right.

I honestly believe that the tendency of Christians to get caught up in legalities and rules and who's right and who's wrong, and which denomination is OK and which is misled, causes many people to be turned off completely to God and causes us to miss what life is really all about: Loving others. Jesus didn't walk around spouting rules and regulations. He walked around healing the sick, feeding and loving the poor in material and spirit. He walked around giving hope and joy to those who didn't have any.
That is my goal in life.
And I continue to seek God everyday, and seek His good for my life.
As far as sex before marriage, and homosexuality, and drug/sex/alchohol addictions, and prostitutes, and the hopeless and aimless, I am choosing Jesus' way, the way of loving all and respecting all. And making the choices in my life that reflect that.

Ashriel,
So me what God says is iron clad.
If He says fornication is a sin (as he does say it) then it is a sin.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I agree. Also with Altenweg.

I think there needs to be flexibility with God's word, because we do live in completely different times. I think there are specific, all-encompassing messages in the Bible that cross cultures and time frames, and those are the things we need to focus on as Christians. Loving God with every part of us, loving others with every part of us, and being the people God made us to be.
I believe that as long as we operate in love, truth, compassion, and wisdom, we are following the right path. As long as we know Jesus and His great sacrifice for us, and we try to mirror that great love in our own lives, I think we are getting it right.

I honestly believe that the tendency of Christians to get caught up in legalities and rules and who's right and who's wrong, and which denomination is ok and which is misled, causes many people to be turned off completely to God and causes us to miss what life is really all about: Loving others. Jesus didn't walk around spouting rules and regulations. He walked around healing the sick, feeding and loving the poor in material and spirit. He walked around giving hope and joy to those who didn't have any.
That is my goal in life.
And I continue to seek God everyday, and seek His good for my life.
As far as sex before marriage, and homosexuality, and drug/sex/alchohol addictions, and prostitutes, and the hopeless and aimless, I am choosing Jesus' way, the way of loving all and respecting all. And making the choices in my life that reflect that.

Sorry about the incomplete greenie, I was trying to do it from my iPod, didn't work so well
Anyway what I was trying to say is that I agree completely. Especially about the part where you said
I honestly believe that the tendency of Christians to get caught up in legalities and rules and who's right and who's wrong, and which denomination is ok and which is misled, causes many people to be turned off completely to God and causes us to miss what life is really all about: Loving others. . This is what turns me off the most. I get this impression that either I do things the way that these religions say that I have to (which most interpret differently anyway) Or I "go to hell" Pretty sure that's not the way God runs things. I think it's the way people try to run things to make others conform to their exact beliefs.
If God didn't want diversity in the world, then why would he create it?
If God discriminated against Homosexuality, then WHY would people be BORN homosexual? Why would God make someone that way just to deny them his Kingdom? Would a kind and loving God do that? I don't believe so.



Sure it can be argued that "God created Diversity so that we can find our way to the right path on our own" but I think that's a load of BS.


I think that God created Diversity in beliefs and religion and opinion so that we can learn from one another and be able to believe or practice in whichever way is best for us. He gave us the choice of HOW to worship and believe.
He also gave us Free will, and by doing that, means that he KNOWS that people won't always do what's considered "good" NOBODY ALWAYS DOES THE RIGHT THING. Everyone has screwed up in one way or another.
I believe that if we really truly live with love in our hearts and try to make the world a better place, then God will forgive us of such Trivial things. That's why he sent Jesus in the first place right?
You can't tell me that He sent his Only son to die for us, so that we will be forgiven of our sins, just so he can send us to hell, or deny us Heaven.
Kind of a Double standard Don't you think.

OhsoHappy,

Unfortunately God is NOT the author of confusion so he didn't create diversity in beliefs or sin. It is what it is. I don't mean to be unkind. I know what you mean or what you are trying to say. It is just that the Bible teaches otherwise. The Bible says There is a way that seems right to a man but the end is death. ( spirtual death)

I won't tell you that The Father sent his son so die for us just so he could deny us heaven. BUT I will tell you what the Bible says... If thou shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead... you will be saved. ( you are NOT denied heaven)

I am a sinner saved by the blood of the Lord Jesus and not to continue IN sin but to be convicted and repent when I do. I still sin sometimes. It is a truth for everyone... and the Bible asks this question to everyone... What will YOU do with the Christ? It is a choice to go to heaven or hell. No double standard at all... :)

ohsohappy,
The way we are born is the result of the consequenses of this world as are earthquakes, volcanoes, monster storms and such.
Contrary to what some believe they are not acts of God.
I understand what is being said about different denomination beliefs.
In my case I tell no one that they are going to hell for I really don't know for sure who is going where and neither does anyone else.
That is the job of God ONLY.
So I think it is very wrong for anyone to say so and so is damned.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

That is true... we are not the judge of someone's heart. Only the Lord knows.

classyT,
Thanks,
Fred

I would add that God's Word has shown us the division between right and wrong. It was shown from the beginning by what Adam and Eve accepted from satan. And the actions of man continue to example what is written of the human man. Watch all actions to see right or wrong.

God does permit man's delusion in the liberty to choose and that liberty includes ignoring HIS presence and HIS helping hand if you choose. However God is surely there for the asking if the heart wants it. AND the prince of this earth, satan, is there to do his evil temptations.

~in Christ

Ash,

A verse in 1 corinthians 6:18

Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body.

I believe you said your Bible didn't actually say fornication. So I used a version like your Bible... it is still done against your own body. God hasn't changed his standard.

The Lord Jesus (the Bible records) is the SAME yesterday, today and forever.

Loving God with every part of us, loving others with every part of us, and being the people God made us to be.
I believe that as long as we operate in love, truth, compassion, and wisdom, we are following the right path. As long as we know Jesus and His great sacrifice for us, and we try to mirror that great love in our own lives, I think we are getting it right.

Certainly appears in the light of what Christ has offered, and not of darkness.



I honestly believe that the tendency of Christians to get caught up in legalities and rules and who's right and who's wrong, and which denomination is ok and which is misled, causes many people to be turned off completely to God and causes us to miss what life is really all about: Loving others.

Agree



Jesus didn't walk around spouting rules and regulations. He walked around healing the sick, feeding and loving the poor in material and spirit. He walked around giving hope and joy to those who didn't have any.
That is my goal in life.

I would have to say Jesus did give to some parables in teaching, as well as everything you have mentioned. (Mark 2:4 And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine)

Luke 8:10 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

I think people forget that Christ HIMSELF washed the feet of HIS disciples for a huge example.



And I continue to seek God everyday, and seek His good for my life.

Amen



As far as sex before marriage, and homosexuality, and drug/sex/alchohol addictions, and prostitutes, and the hopeless and aimless, I am choosing Jesus' way, the way of loving all and respecting all. And making the choices in my life that reflect that.

A great choice..

1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps

His image and steps are righteousness

2 Peter 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of HIM in peace, without spot, and blameless.

sndbay,
I also agree much with what Ashriel posted.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

The Bible is a fantastic work of myth and fiction that was written by multiple authors to try and put their own spin on things.
God is the only one that can judge you, his so called "disciples" have nothing to do with your relationship with God or your choices. We were given free will for a reason, it is Man that puts boundaries on us.

CraftyD,
That is your opinion and perhaps what you believe but I disagree 100%.
I and about 2 billion others believe that the bible is the inspired word of God.
There is much evidence that it is the inspired word of God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Crafty,

If you understood just how RIGHT on the bible is concerning prophecy... you'd be a little embarrassed. It is true that men actually wrote the Bible, but when you study it... you begin to realize... ain't NO way it isn't God's written word. No book could predict what it has and have it come to pass 100 percent. The odds against it happening are staggering. And then of course there is the JEW! The prophecies about that race alone are amazing. What other country became a nation in a day? ( after 2000 years of not having one) all that and more the Bible foretold and it happened to a T!

BUT... and it is a big deal to God... Without FAITH IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE HIM BECAUSE HE THAT COMES TO THE LORD MUST BELIEVE THAT HE IS AND IS A REWARDER OF THEM THAT DILEGENTLY SEEK HIM.

So even if I could somehow PROVE to you how accurate the Bible is... it takes faith to believe. Heck, the Lord Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead and many jews stood and watched. MOST left unbelieving... it is ALL about faith.

ohsohappy,

Of all the miracles the Lord has done... the virgin birth appears in MY mind to be very believable. I mean he parted the Red Sea and millions of hebrews walked across to the other side... the bible records NONE of them were lost. The Lord aloud a donkey to talk for heaven sakes... stopped time, turned regular water to wine and sent a perfect food called mana down from heaven to feed the Hebrew children in the wilderness... NOT to mention creating the earth and mankind and throwing the stars in the sky kind of like an after thought. Believing the virgin birth and Jesus walking on a water hard to swallow?. please that is KID STUFF. Lol Again, it takes faith and I believe EVERY single word of the Bible! :)

I have to ask. If God is so involved in our every day lives, cares so much, where are the miracles now?

So many magnificent miracles in the bible, but then poof, it all stops.

Why?

I have to ask. If God is so involved in our every day lives, cares so much, where are the miracles now?

So many magnificent miracles in the bible, but then poof, it all stops.

Why?

Out of greens but a question that begs for an answer to be sure.

Alty,

He does still perform them. I have seen and heard about pastors and people praying over someone who has cancer and have been told they have less than 6 months and then because of prayer they have been healed. So individually or as the body of Christ.. it does happen.
BUT:
Here is the thing, the Lord isn't dealing with the Jewish nation right now because they rejected him. ( he deals with all of us, Jews, and Gentiles individually... but I'm speaking of as a nation).. but after this "Grace Period" or the Church period is over, God will again start dealing with the nation of Israel again. There will be all kinds of miracles during the tribulation. AND never forget that the Jews had no land for over 2000 years... because of rebellion, because they rejected the messiah but the Bible predicted they would become a nation again. And they did.. May 14, 1948 a nation born in a day... another prediction, another miracle. ALSO you should read how Israel was able to protect their land and win the 6 day war in the 60's. WOW was the war EVER fixed! Miracle after miracle. You should read some of the accounts written by men who aren't even Christians! Yes, God is still in the miracle business!

The bottom line is this.The Bible was written by men as a book of law to control people.
Does it have valuable and wonderful lessons ,yes!
God knows your thoughts,I have a strong faith but my faith tells me I am not a sinner because I am with a man I have loved for 12 years and we make love without the benefit of a piece of paper.
We had a commitment ceremony and that was all we needed.
We were out at a tree and we made our vows.Sinners?
I am a sinner but not because of the love I have for my man and my choice in expressing it.
God brought us together.
Just my thoughts.

artlady,

I'm glad you found love. I REALLY mean that. Some people have been married for YEARS and are not loved or in love. Please know I'm not judging you... not at all. But I don't think the Bible is trying to control anyone though. In fact, it actually teaches that we are fallen sinful humans and that natured we are born with can't be controlled or can't be cleaned up even.

classyT,
You have made some very excellent points.
AND as other posts have shown even the evidence will not change their made up minds just like those who walked away unbelieving when Jesus performed His miracles.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

classyT,
You have made some very excellent points.
AND as other posts have shown even the evidence will not change their made up minds just like those who walked away unbelieving when Jesus performed His miracles.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I would believe Fred, if there was evidence.

I simply can't believe that there is a God that cares.

Your bible teaches that God loves all his children. Well, what about Just Looking, a member on our site. She's a wonderful person, never harmed anyone but two nights ago, her ex-boyfriend decided that he'd make every waking moment of her life a living hell. He beat her, stabbed her, left her for dead. She survived, but not because of God, because of her cell phone and her strength.

If we are in fact God's children then, if he has the power to stop our pain, why doesn't he?

I'm tired of hearing that God has great plans for us, that the pain is necessary so we can have eternal life in the kingdom of God. If that's true then there is a hell, we're living in it now.

No, I can't believe. Did God create the world? I believe he did, but after that he walked away. We're his little ant farm, he created our habitat then left us to fend for ourselves. That's what I believe.

The bible, good book, great stories, very inspirational, the men that wrote it had great imaginations, and yes, there are lessons to be learned. To take it literally, adhere to every rule and regulation, that's just not possible. If every word in the bible is to be followed then God set everyone up for failure. There's no way that anyone could be good enough to live up to His standards.

That's just the way I feel.

Altenweg,
I believe that God does love us all His way, unconditionally.
But His way is a way that also includes the attribute of divine, perfect justice.
That's God's justice not mankind's.
The many prophesies in the bible that are still coming true in this day and ages are evidence that many still seem to ignore.
I think that if there were many more evidences they would also be ingnore by those whose mind is made up just as those in Jesus day did.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I think that if there were many more evidences they would also be ingnore by those whose mind is made up just as those in Jesus day did.

You are right in some ways, but not all.

If there was indisputable proof of a caring loving God, I would believe. I have a searching, questioning mind, if such proof was shown, I'd have to rethink my beliefs.

I didn't come to my beliefs without a lot of research, soul searching and common sense. That doesn't mean that I'm stuck on my belief and not willing to accept others as a possibility.

The reason I believe what I believe is because of the lack of proof to believe something else.

Trust me Fred, I'm not a close minded person, even though I am German. ;)

If there was indisputable proof of a caring loving God, I would believe. I have a searching, questioning mind, if such proof was shown, I'd have to rethink my beliefs.



Altenweg,

I am alittle baffle by your statement of proof wanted. From what I have studied the religion of Deism was of the Gentiles. There were five common notions known.

1. There is one Supreme God.
2. He ought to be worshipped.
3. Virtue and piety are the chief parts of divine worship.
4. We ought to be sorry for our sins and repent of them
5. Divine goodness doth dispense rewards and punishments both in this life and after it.

What changed that idea was a theory of knowledge based on experience. John Locke who was not deist, turned the theory to natural theology and to arguments based on experience and nature.

Matthew Tinal argued against special revelation "God designed all mankind that should at all times know, what God wills them to know, believe, profess, and practice; and has given them no other means for this, but the Use of Reason. This was termed the Deist bible based on experience or human reason.

A modern definition today is the recognition of a universal creative force greater than that demonstrated by mankind, supported by personal observation of laws and designs in nature and the universe, perpetuated and validated by the innate ability of human reason coupled with the rejection of claims made by individuals and organized religions of having received special divine revelation.

Each of these even the newer interpretation have a foundation of knowing a greater force then man. Example meets that of proof in a God.

So is it that you believe there is a God, but don't believe He is a caring God? What is the reasoning behind your thoughts?


Off thread..

It is off thread.

I'll start another to answer your question so we don't hijack this one. :)

I'll post the link when I'm done.

Here it is. :)

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religious-discussions/why-believe-deism-402598.html

You are right in some ways, but not all.

If there was indisputable proof of a caring loving God, I would believe. I have a searching, questioning mind, if such proof was shown, I'd have to rethink my beliefs.

I didn't come to my beliefs without a lot of research, soul searching and common sense. That doesn't mean that I'm stuck on my belief and not willing to accept others as a possibility.

The reason I believe what I believe is because of the lack of proof to believe something else.

Trust me Fred, I'm not a close minded person, even though I am German. ;)

Hay kid a Shultz here ! I thought Germans were excellent cooks with immaculate house's who liked to tip a few :cool:

Hay kid a Shultz here ! I thought Germans were excellent cooks with immaculate house's who liked to tip a few :cool:

I can cook, but I hate it. My house, right now, is a mess, I give up, they win. ;) Tipping a few, well, cheers! :)

I agree with you, the bible doesn't come out and say don't have sex before marriage but I believe that it is a sin. When it talks about marriage all together, the bible says virgin someitmes instead of women or man. Its in a passage about marriage, I think one of the corinthians

i agree with you, the bible doesnt come out and say dont have sex before marriage but i believe that it is a sin. when it talks about marriage all together, the bible says virgin someitmes instead of women or man. its in a passage about marriage, i think one of the corinthians

If you read post #32 and #33 you will see that the Bible actually does say not to have sex before marriage. The definition of fornication is sex between two unmarried people.

Matthew 15:19
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

The above is from the King James Bible. As you can see, it groups fornication with adultery and other sinful acts.

I know that there are some translations of the Bible that use "sexual immorality" in place of "fornication" but this doesn't change the fact that fornication is part of "sexual immorality".

As I stated in post #33, the use of "sexual immorality" in some translations is a poor choice as many people choose to define "sexual immorality" according to their own interpretation in order to justify their own desires, rather than the original intent of the word.