In these days of being green, or one technology being greener than another, have we forgotten bigger issues in the rush to control the emission of greenhouse gases

Power plant will put lives at risk, experts warn (http://www.smh.com.au/environment/power-plant-will-put-lives-at-risk-experts-warn-20090821-etsl.html)

What would you trade lower emissions or your health? It seems the people of South-western Sydney are not being given that choice. They live in an area already heavily polluted because of prevailing conditions, and yet the NSW Government, supposed protector of the people, and whose health budget is already struggling, has fast tracked the development of a large gas fired generation facility right in their back yard. Why site it there you might ask? It's right where the gas is produced, DuH! Why would you site it anywhere else, unless of course you recognised that fortuitious economics is not the only consideration?

Questions to ponder and reply if you have answers

Are there times when green is not green, just ugly brown?

Should development decisions be in the hands of Treasury boffins who live a long distance from the project? (this project was undoubtedly regarded as a project of state significance)

Should such decisions have been taken out of the hands of local authorities?

Are we just watching the death throws of a government which has lost touch with its roots?

Has paranoia over carbon emissions clouded our judgement?

Yep them tree huggers come up with new and better only to find out it isn't better.

I don't think it is a matter of clouded judgment many of the people pushing for them things don't have good judgment for it to get clouded

Are there times when green is not green, just ugly brown?

Yes, cap and trade for instance. Or perhaps how Democrats here refuse to allow any more offshore drilling or in ANWR, but don't mind underwriting offshore drilling... in Brazil (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203863204574346610120524166.html), long considered a leader in going "green."


Should development decisions be in the hands of Treasury boffins who live a long distance from the project? (this project was undoubtedly regarded as a project of state significance)

I'm a huge fan of local control.


Should such decisions have been taken out of the hands of local authorities?

Again, I'm a huge fan of local control.


Are we just watching the death throws of a government which has lost touch with its roots?

Here or in Australia?


Has paranoia over carbon emissions clouded our judgement?

Not mine, I don't fall for all that "emotionalizing (http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/amcelhinney/2009/08/19/exclusive-lies-revealed-greenpeace-leader-admits-arctic-ice-exaggeration/)" of environmental issues.

I have to ask though, what kind of "gas" fired plant? Natural gas is the cleanest burning (http://www.naturalgas.org/environment/naturalgas.asp) of the fossil fuels.

Again, I'm a huge fan of local control.



Here or in Australia?


I have to ask though, what kind of "gas" fired plant? Natural gas is the cleanest burning (http://www.naturalgas.org/environment/naturalgas.asp) of the fossil fuels.

I specifically quoted an instance in New South Wales, Australia and I was referring to a lame duck state government. The plant is a coal seam gas plant but I don't consider this any different to natural gas, but this signals a warning that what might be a greener alternative, might not be a cleaner alternative. Large coal fired generators are usually sited at some distance from residential developments but this development is sited in the midst of well established and rapidly developing residential areas on the fringe of a large urban area.


There are many questions which come back to paranoia about climate change driving governments to throw common sense out the window when approving so called green projects, not to mention the political extremes of a "liberal" or "socialist" government desperately clinging to power after many years of botched decisions. These things have parallels in other places because the underlying thinking is the same. The answer to a drought was to build a desalination plant, now not needed, the answer to that same drought was to implement draconian water restrictions now extended to the entire state which is bigger than Texas by the way, the answer to a burgeoning population and urban sprawl is to build an inner city metro, not to mention the swinging door of party leadership and corruption allegations. This is a government which was green before it was fashionable to be so.;)

I understood you were referring to your government there, I was being facetious. Anyway, I'm still confused, the article you cite states it is a "gas-fired plant." I admit I don't know what a "coal seam gas plant" is, when it's "gas-fired" here it's typically natural gas which is what I use to heat my home. I can understand not wanting an old-school coal plant in a metropolitan area, that just doesn't make sense these days.

I understood you were referring to your government there, I was being facetious. Anyway, I'm still confused, the article you cite states it is a "gas-fired plant." I admit I don't know what a "coal seam gas plant" is, when it's "gas-fired" here it's typically natural gas which is what I use to heat my home. I can understand not wanting an old-school coal plant in a metropolitan area, that just doesn't make sense these days.

You may be unaware that the latest approach to mining coal for electricity generation is not to extract it from the ground but to extract the gas from the coal seam. Coal Bed Methane - Mineral Fact Sheets - Australian Mines Atlas (http://www.australianminesatlas.gov.au/education/fact_sheets/coal_bed_methane.jsp)The gas produced is similar to what you call natural gas, the difference is it didn't come from an oil or gas well. What they typically do with coal seam gas is locate a generator somewhere near by to avoid the transshipment costs although it is becoming a large export industry here as well as feeding into the gas pipeline network.

The region surrounding Sydney, the largest city, is a coal producing area with large deposits particularly to the south west and south and it just happens that that is the direction the urban sprawl has travelled. So what was once far removed from the city is no longer "rural", but suburban

Seems most of the CBM here is put right in the pipeline. I'm in a huge natural gas production area and we have no coal nearby so the subject never comes up around here. The only mention I ever hear of coal is in the work of clean coal technology (http://science.howstuffworks.com/clean-coal.htm) which itself may just be more ugly brown instead of green.

There are many questions which come back to paranoia about climate change driving governments to throw common sense out the window when approving so called green projects, not to mention the political extremes of a "liberal" or "socialist" government desperately clinging to power after many years of botched decisions. These things have parallels in other places because the underlying thinking is the same.

There is also an underlying political philosophy that green fits into perfectly ;that only broader statist solutions are the cure-all for the problems of the day.
The left is at work overtime now because as the President's chief of staff of known to say ;you can't let a crisis go to waste.

The latest and perhaps most cynical manifestation of this to date by the Obots is the redefining of the symbolic significance of the attacks on 9-11.

They are in the process of turning 9-11 into a celebration of ethanol, carbon emission controls, and radical community organizing, The President signed a law in April turning September 11 into a "National Service Day" . This effort is being coordinated out of the White House with groups like Green the Block ,Green for All and the Hip Hop Caucus.


From policy creation to community implementation, the Green the Block campaign wants to see access and opportunity created for all Americans, to build prosperity and a healthier planet for future generations," said Rev. Lennox Yearwood, Jr. of the Hip Hop Caucus. "The first milestone for Green the Block will be on our National Day of Service, September 11, 2009, where we will organize Green the Block service events around the country in coordination with the President's initiative, United We Serve."



The White House - Blog Post - Green the Block - Live Chat @ 3pm EDT (http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Green_The_Block/)

Sen. Schuck Schumer said.
"Sept. 11 should not only be a day for mourning - it should be a day to think about our neighbors, our community and our country,"

"We can take a tragic day in our nation's history and turn it into a force for good," ..."We can make it a day on which we can give back in remembrance of those who lost their lives."

The bill the President signed triples the size of Americorp ,which of course is spending taxpayers money to buy additional volunteers to the tune of an extra $6 billion . In other words ;it becomes another paid government job. Volunteerism is a wonderful thing.Millions of Americans do it every day without a cent of taxpayer money;and do not expect to have a National Day of recognition for their efforts.

It was my understanding that originally MLK Jr birthday was going to be designated National Service Day. But the left decided to switch it to 9-11 and to hijack the meaning of the day.

But the meaning of the day is lost anyway on a CIC who thinks that the attack was an issue of a failure of empathy .

We must also engage, however, in the more difficult task of understanding the sources of such madness. The essence of this tragedy, it seems to me, derives from a fundamental absence of empathy on the part of the attackers: an inability to imagine, or connect with, the humanity and suffering of others. Such a failure of empathy, such numbness to the pain of a child or the desperation of a parent, is not innate; nor, history tells us, is it unique to a particular culture, religion, or ethnicity. It may find expression in a particular brand of violence, and may be channeled by particular demagogues or fanatics. Most often, though, it grows out of a climate of poverty and ignorance, helplessness and despair.
The Political Scene: Making It : The New Yorker (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/07/21/080721fa_fact_lizza?currentPage=all)

Guess it doesn't matter that OBL came from one of the richest families in the world ,or that most of the hijackers were not from poverty and ignorance, helplessness and despair ;but rather middle class and college educated .

On the ground what happened was not a matter of volunteerism. What happened on the ground was the courage of America's first responders ,the police ,the firemen ,the EMT on full display. If there is a need for a day of recognition on Sept 11, it should be reserved for them;and for the heroes of the day who saved thousands of lives who would've been lost without their efforts .

What they have already done (or haven't done?) with 9/11 and the WTC site is a national disgrace. I must have been asleep or it was never reported here about turning 9/11 into some pathetic "green" National Service Day. That is not going to go over in the heartland once folks realize what's happened. In fact, I can foresee protestations that could make these health care town halls pale in comparison.

The only mention I ever hear of coal is in the work of clean coal technology (http://science.howstuffworks.com/clean-coal.htm) which itself may just be more ugly brown instead of green.

Hey guys don't hijack the thread.:mad:

Ah, yes, the hope of the planet and the union movement, clean coal technology, the business as usual solution, otherwise known as sequestration, or let's defer the problem and maybe it will go away. This , of course, completely ignores that coal is an export industry for the big producers. Pumping CO2 back into the wells it came out of may buy time but I think it's little like trying to put the genie back in the bottle. While we are fooling around with this we aren't putting our energies to producing some more innovative technology. We could be really innovative and find a use for the components of CO2 so that the problem is dealt with. Growing plants with it is also a short term solution.

No attempt to hijack the thread Clete, taking over 9/11 for some green celebrations is clouded judgment over carbon emissions.