I've been wondering about this for some time now... Why do Catholics have statues of virgins, of a man on the cross representing Jesus when God said that we should not praise idols? Because that's how I see, it, idols!

The Israeli once made a golden cow to represent God, and He was not pleased the least. Instead, he was angry at them and wanted to kill them. (Exodus 32:10)

The short answer: We have statues of the people we look up to not unlike having a picture on the wall of a long dead grandparent.

Here is some more detail that you might be interested in reading: Do Catholics Worship Statues? (http://www.catholic.com/library/Do_Catholics_Worship_Statues.asp)

Thanks for answering Rick! (I haven't seen you around for a long time heh!:))

I'll take a look at the link you provided. :)

I'm around... but "invisible" - lurking in the shadows :)

LOL! I haven't seen you posting that is to say. Now now, I don't want to hijack my on thread, :eek: Cya then! :) I'll have a look at the link. There's pretty much to read...

Unknown008,
Yes Rick provided some excellent links to ponder with.
An idol is something that is worshiped such as in paganism.
Catholics do not worship statues just as people in a city park do not worship the statue of some person or hero that has been placed there.
The statues you might see in a cathedral are representative of saintly people held in high esteem.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Hi, Unknown008!

My own, personal view on this, is that statues and any other representations of things or people in the form of statuary, paintings, ornaments, altar decorations and ornaments, chancel decorations and ornaments, rosaries, etc. that are placed in and around church buildings, in cemeteries, etc. can also be viewed as works of art. They most often are used as remembrances, commemorations and things to have to help us to be "in touch" in some tangible way with the things that we might believe as a matter of faith.

Works of art can be and are reflections of something that has happened in the past, how people feel or felt about something, how people might perceive things to be in their "world", or in the "world" of others and many other things.

Centuries ago, people in many different faiths didn't have cameras, t.v. or any of the other modern ways was "capturing" something, other than writing it down, so that it would stand the test of time. So, creating works of art, was a way of being able to have something that would last into the future so as to help generations in the future to be reminded of an historical event; somebody that should be remembered and thought about because of what that person taught and/or believed; to be reminded of the reasons as to why people of any certain faith might believe what they do and why they do things the way that they do in the practice of their faith, etc.

How people created their art because a matter of custom and tradition.

Examples of what a couple works of art within the Christian tradition might represent:

Paintings, pictures and statuary of praying hands is a reminder of a way to pray, and also to pray.

Paintings, pictures and statuary of Jesus hanging on the cross, are reminders of the suffering that Jesus went through to redeem us from our sins. In many denominations, Jesus is shown on the cross, but represented in such a way as showing that he had power over sin and death.

What those things represent, will also vary, depending on the belief of the individual.

Different denominations have different traditions that they like to continue over time. This is even true between different congregational bodies within a single denomination.

Thanks!

The point is that, here, not only do Catholics kneel to the statues (which I just read that is does not necessarily mean that they worship the statue) but they do also mention the name of for example, Virgin Mary, look after us... etc. The fact that they strike the statues, give them offerings, pray to them is what makes me think that they are worshipping idols.

Then maybe not all Catholics are like that, as I understand from the link given by Rick, and thanks again for that. I did think all Catholics were the same everywhere (silly me). The link made things clearer, as well as your answers. But I also think that in my country, there are some, is not most, catholics who are 'extremists'.

Unknown008,

An idol is something that is worshiped such as in paganism.


Fred an idol is something that takes the place of God, this is why the people were told not to make images, because God didn't want them using someoneelse's image when they were relating to him. Today people have many idols but this whole statue thing has missed the point, the relationship is supposed to be one on one with God, there isn't supposed to be anyone else in the picture. Just another case of tradition nullifying the Word of God.

In this case the Catholic Church threw away one of God's commandments

Fred an idol is something that takes the place of God, this is why the people were told not to make images, because God didn't want them using someoneelse's image when they were relating to him. Today people have many idols but this whole statue thing has missed the point, the relationship is supposed to be one on one with God, there isn't supposed to be anyone else in the picture. Just another case of tradition nullifying the Word of God.

In this case the Catholic Church threw away one of God's commandments

Fred's answer was perfectly understandable. You have managed to twist it into something it was never intended to be. Obviously, the Catholic Church did not "throw away one of God's commandments". Equally obviously, you have a thing re the Catholic Church. One would think, in the 21st century, the canard about Catholics worshiping statues would be finally put to rest. Apparently not in your world.

Fred's answer was perfectly understandable. You have managed to twist it into something it was never intended to be. Obviously, the Catholic Church did not "throw away one of God's commandments". Equally obviously, you have a thing re the Catholic Church. One would think, in the 21st century, the canard about Catholics worshiping statues would be finally put to rest. Apparently not in your world.

In my "world" the question does not arise because I am not confronted with these images when I go to a place of worship, but I do know people who find it confronting.

The reality is there are many "cunards" that are not lain to rest because the Catholic practice continues unabated. The only "thing" I have regarding the Catholic Chrurch is they didn't introduce me to Jesus

in my "world" the question does not arise because I am not confronted with these images when I go to a place of worship, but I do know people who find it confronting.

The reality is there are many "cunards" that are not lain to rest because the Catholic practice continues unabated. The only "thing" I have regarding the Catholic Chrurch is they didn't introduce me to Jesus

The word is "canard", not "cunard". Good grief! How revealing is that! Spare us your nonsense. Nobody's listening. Good night.

Good grief! How revealing is that! Spare us your nonsense. Nobody's listening. Good night.
Canard "to half-sell a duck" I am not selling you any ducks or ocean voyages for that matter.

I know that you are not listening, this, of course, is the problem, no one is listening. It is just business as usual!

this, of course, is the problem, noone is listening. It is just business as usual!

Lol. You got THAT right! Sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Nice to see you have a sense of humor.

Canard "to half-sell a duck" I am not selling you any ducks or ocean voyages for that matter.

I know that you are not listening, this, of course, is the problem, noone is listening. It is just business as usual!

Well, I'm not listening either but I'm reading all these posts... I was thinking like you did paraclete. But the other arguments were pointed out, and now I understand. The point is that, they must never put these statues prior to God. If they keep them as a matter of art, then that's fine. But the moment that they put some 'importance' or 'consideration' in they so that they also consider these statues as powerful beings who can also save them apart from God, then that becomes a violation of the ten commandments.

And please, stop creating a thread if that's in reply to a post in here. I don't want the mods (Fr-Chuck) to have too much work, I quite know what being a mod requires, and please, make it easier for everyone. The thread is here, so post in here so that people can understand what's going on, OK?

The conversation however is good, keep it coming :)

So, paraclete, do you also condemn ALL the Christian churches that have a cross in them?

And please, stop creating a thread if that's in reply to a post in here. I don't want the mods (Fr-Chuck) to have too much work, I quite know what being a mod requires, and please, make it easier for everyone. The thread is here, so post in here so that people can understand what's going on, ok?

The conversation however is good, keep it coming :)

The main thread remains the same, we have the ability to put a heading on a reply and I use that facility when appropriate, like this has nothing to do with the main thread. As far as Chuck doing some work, he took on the job.:D

Nice to see you have a sense of humor.

Yes I do, and what I notice is that this is a fairly humourless place, everyone takes themselves and the subject so seriously, like their world will end if they get it wrong.

But then that's religion for you, but do you know Scripture says; God Laughs.:D

So, paraclete, do you also condemn ALL the Christian churches that have a cross in them?

I don't spend my time condemning anyone but I do have opinions about the difference between Christianity and religion. What was it Paul said, he hoped to save some?

Religious people cannot stand for anyone to have an opinion which is contrary to theirs, this is why they crucified Jesus. There are some who would say that the methodology employed in our christian churches today is just a continuation of pagan practices and in some places it is more apparent than others.

Consider this
Jesus sort the lost
Jesus preached the Kingdom of God
Jesus avoided preaching in buildings
Jesus didn't take a salary for his ministry
Jesus prayed on mountain tops not in Churches
Jesus went to the people, not demanded the people come to him

I've been wondering about this for some time now... Why do Catholics have statues of virgins, of a man on the cross representing Jesus when God said that we should not praise idols? Because that's how I see, it, idols!

The Israeli once made a golden cow to represent God, and He was not pleased the least. Instead, he was angry at them and wanted to kill them. (Exodus 32:10)

Catholics hold that to worship a statue to be a sin, just as Protestants do, (see Ex. 20:4-5 and Ex. 32:31). However, a symbol of our Christian faith is no more idolatry than for a Protestant to put the Christian 'fish' symbol on the bumper of their car. Come to think of it I thought I saw Southern Baptist preacher Jones kneeling in front of his car the other day. The car had one of those fish symbols on his bumper. I wonder if he was praying to the fish symbol so that the car would levitate or was he trying to start his car? What do you think – silly isn't it? There are no statues in Catholic Churches that are worshiped.

And then there is the first book of Chronicles, chapter 28 where David built Sole a Temple; “And for the altar of incense, he gave the purest gold: and to make the likeness of the chariot of the cherubims spreading their wings, and covering the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All these things, said he, came to me written by the hand of the Lord that I might understand all the works of the pattern.” (V18-19) David's plan clearly included statues of angels. Oops! Did David mess up? Maybe instead of starting the Kingdom of David he was worshiping pagan idols – you, think David was guilty of polytheism? After all there were 'two' statutes of angels. You know two is more than one and 'poly' means many (which is more than one) – hence David was a polytheist? Why would Christ want his linage starting with David if he was an evil polytheist? Or maybe symbols used to remind us of our heavenly goal is OK? Or should we through the fish back?

But, if we were to search Scripture further we'd see where statues were used by Moses. Oops again! We see in Exodus, 25 verses 18–20 “ Thou shalt make also two cherubims of beaten gold, on the two sides of the oracle. 19 Let one cherub be on the one side, and the other on the other.” God spoke to Moses and TOLD him to build the statues. Was Moses like our good Southern Baptist preacher, standing behind the tabernacle trying to get the Hebrews started on their journey or was he worshiping the cherubs? Maybe keeping heavenly visions of our hope is better than a fishy bumpersticker – you reckon?


JoeT

But, if we were to search Scripture further we’d see where statues were used by Moses. Oops again! We see in Exodus, 25 verses 18–20 “ Thou shalt make also two cherubims of beaten gold, on the two sides of the oracle. 19 Let one cherub be on the one side, and the other on the other.” God spoke to Moses and TOLD him to build the statues. Was Moses like our good Southern Baptist preacher, standing behind the tabernacle trying to get the Hebrews started on their journey or was he worshiping the cherubs? Maybe keeping heavenly visions of our hope is better than a fishy bumpersticker – you reckon?

JoeT
Joe God told Moses to decorate the Arc of the Covenant, a place for God's habitation. It wasn't Moses idea and he did not tell Moses to duplicate it everywhere he went. So God did not sanction statues in the Church by decorating the Arc, it was a one off for God's pleasure.

As to bumper stickers they are someone trying to say something like identifying themselves with Christ, Just like a priest or a nun carries a crucifix, an outward sign and maybe an offensive one if your reaction is any indication. If you find that Southern Baptist offensive, maybe he finds your statues offensive

Joe God told Moses to decorate the Ark of the Covenant, a place for God's habitation. It wasn't Moses idea and he did not tell Moses to duplicate it everywhere he went. So God did not sanction statues in the Church by decorating the Arc, it was a one off for God's pleasure.

If as you say, Moses decorated the Ark – which is the residence of God - then Catholics decorate their Church is following good precedence. You see, in the Church is an equivalent to the tabernacle which is filled with the 'Real Presence of God'. So then, it would be wrong not to put statues?


As to bumper stickers they are someone trying to say something like identifying themselves with Christ, Just like a priest or a nun carries a crucifix, an outward sign and maybe an offensive one if your reaction is any indication. If you find that Southern Baptist offensive, maybe he finds your statues offensive
Crucifixes are carried to take them from place to place – not to be an outward sign.

It was never indicated that the bumper sticker was offensive – that was your take on my comment.

JoeT

JoeT777, my point was clearly stated through the whole thread. I said that the Catholics that I saw, they prayed in the name of the statue, virgin Mary for example, another would be 'notre dame de Lourdes' or 'notre dame de la paix' (I'm in more of a francophone country), etc.

I think that if the statues are mean for an 'artistic' purpose, then it's not idolatry. It becomes it when one considers that the statue (or other similar representation) is divine.

The thing about the car and the priest, I think that he may be putting his car in the hands of God, so that God protects him during his journeys by car, that is understandable, unless he said he worshipped his car.

Also, neither Moses nor David worshipped, nor loved, nor glorified these cherubims as far as I know. If they did really, then would you please say the verses?

If as you say, Moses decorated the Ark – which is the residence of God - then Catholics decorate their Church is following good precedence. You see, in the Church is an equivalent to the tabernacle which is filled with the ‘Real Presence of God’. So then, it would be wrong not to put statues?


Crucifixes are carried to take them from place to place – not to be an outward sign.

It was never indicated that the bumper sticker was offensive – that was your take on my comment.

JoeT

Joe God doesn't live in temples or houses made by men. When the curtain was torn in the Temple at Jesus death God departed from the temple. Now he resides in the temple of the body with each believer so he has no need of a decorated house, these places are for us not God.

The idea that the Church is equivalent of the tabernacle is a false teaching one of the many perpetuating the Old Testament ideas of religion, don't you know the meaning of Emmanuel "God with us"?

Joe God doesn't live in temples or houses made by men. When the curtain was torn in the Temple at Jesus death God departed from the temple. Now he resides in the temple of the body with each believer so he has no need of a decorated house, these places are for us not God. Where in the New Testament does it say that “God Departed?”


The idea that the Church is equivalent of the tabernacle is a false teaching one of the many perpetuating the Old Testament ideas of religion, don't you know the meaning of Emmanuel "God with us"?
How is that so? Yes Emmanuel is with us. But actually I was referring to Christ's promise to being with us; “And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.” Christ ascended to heaven yet he promised to be with us ALWAYS. This is why in Matthew we join with Christ in His' real presence', “Take ye and eat. This is my body… Drink ye all of this. For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins.” (Christ's 'real presence' among his faithful - Matt 26) John, in chapter 6, tells us Christ said, “He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me: and I in him.” The 'real presence of Christ'.

The place where the 'real presence' of Christ', the Eucharist, is reserved is called a tabernacle. It serves the same function as Moses' tabernacle, e.g. the residence of God. To stand before the Tabernacle is to stand before Christ; as promised ALWAYS with us.

JoeT

Where in the New Testament does it say that “God Departed?”


How is that so? Yes Emmanuel is with us. But actually I was referring to Christ’s promise to being with us; “And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.” Christ ascended to heaven yet he promised to be with us ALWAYS. This is why in Matthew we join with Christ in His’ real presence’, “Take ye and eat. This is my body… Drink ye all of this. For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins.” (Christ’s ‘real presence’ among his faithful - Matt 26) John, in chapter 6, tells us Christ said, “He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. 56 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. 57 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me: and I in him.” The ‘real presence of Christ’.

The place where the ‘real presence’ of Christ’, the Eucharist, is reserved is called a tabernacle. It serves the same function as Moses’ tabernacle, e.g. the residence of God. To stand before the Tabernacle is to stand before Christ; as promised ALWAYS with us.

JoeT

Traditions of men, Joe, Christ didn't say anything about the eucharist, he said take and eat, not reserve, or preserve. Just man trying to put God back in the Box again.. Christ in us the hope of glory, not Christ in a box

paraclete,
The Catholic Church did not throw away a Commandment.
Your opinion is very wrong.
Catholics do not worship statuues, only God.
Your dislike of the Catholic Church is showing just as it has on other boards over the years.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

paraclete,
The Catholic Church did not throw away a Commandment.
Your opinion is very wrong.
Catholics do not worship statuues, only God.
Your dislike of the Catholic Church is showing just as it has on other boards over the years.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Hi Fred

4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God,

Is this familiar to you Fred

Suggest you have a look at this comparison and tell me where did the commandment go?http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm

The reality Fred is what I am about is truth, as to worship you should examine what constitutes worship but I would have thought praying to a saint in front of a statue wold constitute worship

As far as Catholics are concerned, fine, disciplined people but their hierarchy has a lot to answer for. Open your eyes Fred

Hi Fred

4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God,

Is this familiar to you Fred


And I'll add this is also in Deut 5: 8, 9 :)

I hope I'm not offending anybody. I'm just pointing out that I know (and have seen) catholics that did worship a statue. I want to know whether that is the same in other countries too.

traditions of men, Joe, Christ didn't say anything about the eucharist, he said take and eat, not reserve, or preserve. Just man trying to put God back in the Box again.. Christ in us the hope of glory, not Christ in a box

How then do you explain John 6:37-68. So, we attribute this to the tradition of God and are to immediately relegate it the world of “profiting nothing?” Is it really all that hard a thing? It was for some in Christ's time, I guess real truth can be a hard in our time?

JoeT

paraclete,
Yes I am familiar with that passage, but it DOES NOT apply to what The Church believes of does.
My eyes were open many years ago when I started studying The Church and later left Protestantism to become a member of The Church for I DID find there the truth and not hate and bigotry as I formerly had been exposed to.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

paraclete,
Yes I am familiar with that passage, but it DOES NOT apply to what The Church believes of does.


You see Fred, I don't know of any instance where Scriputure doesn't apply to what the Church believes, but apparently you do.
So I have to ask;
What Gospel do they preach where you live?
Did Jesus die to redeem us?
Perhaps someoneelse is capable of saving us?

paraclete,
To answer your questions...
The Catholic Church teaches the gospels found in the Holy Bible that The Church originally put together as inspired by the Holy Spirit and provided same for the world.
Jesus was born, lived, taught by word and deed, died and rose from the dead to save us.
We are saved by the grace of the triune God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[QUOTE=paraclete;1947511 I would have thought praying to a saint in front of a statue wold constitute worship[/QUOTE]

Then you would be wrong. This is the problem with coming off half-cocked without having educated oneself about the matter: One tends to fall prey to all sorts of shallow mistakes because one hasn't taken the time to inform oneself.

Christians have always distinguished between worship and veneration. Worship (proskunesis, in Greek) is reserved for God alone. Catholics don't worship saints; Catholics venerate saints. Veneration is, in fact, a very good thing. Catholics worship only the Holy Trinity.

The corpus on a crucifix is there as a bulwark against docetism--that heretical view which holds that Christ wasn't really fully human. It is there to remind us that Christ really did become human and really did suffer and die for us. An empty cross--a cross without a corpus or figure of Christ--doesn't signify anything uniquely Christian since many thousands of people were crucified by the Romans. It isn't the cross that we worship, nor is it the cross that saves; it is the man-God upon the cross we wish to call to mind. Yes?

Statues and icons are placed in churches as a reminder that we are part of the communion of saints, participants in the divine liturgy alongside all those who have worshiped God and served him throughout the ages. These matters have been the subject of theological discussion since the very beginning of Christianity. Interestingly, the sort of iconoclasm you appear to advocate isn't itself Christian in origin: It has it's origins in Islam and was imported into certain strands of Christianity after the rise of Islam in the Middle East.

If you are unable to tell the difference between veneration and worship, then I suggest that the problem is yours, not Catholics'. Millions of Catholic and Orthodox Christians have had no trouble with it at all for two thousand years.

Akoue,
For about 30 years I did have trouble with worship vs veneration of statues. But when I started studying Catholicism it was one of the first things I learned to know the difference.
Then veneration of saints such as Mary, Peter, James and John rather than worship came next.
My road to Rome was rough and rocky at times, particularly from the fact that I was raised Luther in a very Lutheran family.
But I did find that the more I learned about the truth of Catholicism vs what I had been formerly taught was very must a marvelous spiritual journey.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Akoue,
For about 30 years I did have trouble with worship vs veneration of statues. But when I started studying Catholicism it was one of the first things I learned to know the difference.
Then veneration of saints such as Mary, Peter, James and John rather than worship came next.
My road to Rome was rough and rocky at times, particularly from the fact that I was raised Luther in a very Lutheran family.
But I did find that the more I learned about the truth of Catholicism vs what I had been formerly taught was very must a marvelous spiritual journey.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

All roads to spiritual truth are rough and rocky at times. I'm glad you found the road that works for you. We're all seekers and, as the good book says, "...there are many mansions in my Father's house".

Fred:

I was raised Catholic and reintegrated, so to speak, in a fighting hole after a short falling-out; then I settled in the land of the Southern Baptist. To survive, I learned to rely on our 2,000 years of Catholic history for answers for the 'once saved always saved' crowd. This may be the reason for my 'in-your-face' manner.

I've been told by Protestant converts that the single most difficult hurdle is the adoration of Mary – I never understood why. Since you're a convert, can you shed any light? These same converts also tell me that statues and the Crucifixes seem 'different' but easily understood. Consequently, the objection over the veneration of statues by non-Catholics seems to be simple demagoguery. More to the point, the argument seems to be used to validate pigeonholing Catholics as pagans or some 'sub-Christian' group, not sophisticated. Do you get the same impressions? Your insight would be valued and appreciated.

JoeT

JoeT,
Yes I do get the same impressions from some.
I did not have much trouble with the veneration of Mary once I understood the communion of saints and veneration of our saintly brothers and sisters who have gone before us.
One of my digest hurdles to get over was brothers and sisters of Jesus and that Mary was NOT ever virgin.
For a long time. Even after I became a Catholic I had the attitude that if He did have them as blood siblings it made no difference to me; Jesus was still my Lord and savior.
I grew from that to accepting that maybe Joseph did have children by a former wife.
And I needed to grow in understanding from that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Hmm, you gave some point there Akoue. Would you mind explaining further about veneration and worship? I mean, like showing how they really differ in the way they are carried out.

Thanks, the discussion is very interesting! :)

And to fall back, one also looks at the Orthodox Church, which I often do in questions like this. We know there was one basic church till the East and West separated @ 1000 AD. So by looking at the things the two churches share in common we see tradition and teachings that are not as much "church" but practice from this eariler time. The use of symbols and other icons are very common and one only has to enter a Orthodox Church to find that a Catholic church has very few compared to the Eastern practice.

Fred:

I was raised Catholic and reintegrated, so to speak, in a fighting hole after a short falling-out; then I settled in the land of the Southern Baptist. To survive, I learned to rely on our 2,000 years of Catholic history for answers for the ‘once saved always saved’ crowd. This may be the reason for my ‘in-your-face’ manner.

I’ve been told by Protestant converts that the single most difficult hurdle is the adoration of Mary – I never understood why. Since you’re a convert, can you shed any light? These same converts also tell me that statues and the Crucifixes seem ‘different’ but easily understood. Consequently, the objection over the veneration of statues by non-Catholics seems to be simple demagoguery. More to the point, the argument seems to be used to validate pigeonholing Catholics as pagans or some ‘sub-Christian’ group, not sophisticated. Do you get the same impressions? Your insight would be valued and appreciated.

JoeT

JoeT,

Course you didn't ask me why as far as the adoration of Mary but I will tell you why.for me. Because she was a mere woman... a woman who had to be saved by grace. Oh she found favor in the eyes of God and she was chosen to give birth to our Lord over other woman, but she was a sinner nevertheless and her son.. the Lord Jesus had to wash her sins away just like he did mine. I feel the same way about any mere man being elevated to a higher status. This doesn't mean that I don't look up to Godly men, but for most non Catholics all of our adoration goes to the ONLY one who deserves to be adored... the Lord Jesus Christ.

You stated to survive you lived on 2,000 years of catholic histroy. I would suggest to survive you should have lived on and ONLY on the word of God. Jesus said he was the 'bread of life" and he was the Word made flesh. I believe in the absolute infalliable word of God. That is the BIBLE. Anything outside of it...is NOT God's written word to us. It is just history. Doesn't mean we can't learn things from history, it is just that it ISN"T the BIBLE.

I know, I know.. you didn't ask ME the question. But I just could feel it in my bones that you were dying to know what I thought. :D (I'm gifted that way)! :)

JoeT,

Course you didn't ask me why as far as the adoration of Mary but I will tell you why.for me. Because she was a mere woman...a woman who had to be saved by grace. Oh she found favor in the eyes of God and she was chosen to give birth to our Lord over other woman, but she was a sinner nevertheless and her son..the Lord Jesus had to wash her sins away just like he did mine. I feel the same way about any mere man being elevated to a higher status. This doesn't mean that I don't look up to Godly men, but for most non Catholics all of our adoration goes to the ONLY one who deserves to be adored...the Lord Jesus Christ.

You stated to survive you lived on 2,000 years of catholic histroy. I would suggest to survive you should have lived on and ONLY on the word of God. Jesus said he was the 'bread of life" and he was the Word made flesh. I believe in the absolute infalliable word of God. That is the BIBLE. Anything outside of it...is NOT God's written word to us. It is just history. Doesn't mean we can't learn things from history, it is just that it ISN"T the BIBLE.

I know, i know..you didn't ask ME the question. But i just could feel it in my bones that you were dying to know what I thought. :D (i'm gifted that way)! :)

Of a mere woman never is it said that all generations will call her blessed:
In all of the New Testament how many mere people were described as, “blessed art thou”? I'll tell you; two and only two. One nurtured an infant Church; the other nurtured an infant God.

Luke 1

42 And she cried out with a loud voice and said: Blessed art thou among women ... 45 And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be ...

Matthew 16

17 And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. ...

Mary, the Tabernacle that held the person of God:

The person of Christ has two natures, that of God and man. Mary, God-bearer (theotokos) gave birth to the Person of Christ, who had one soul and one, body, the second person in the Triune is man. Thus, Mary is the Mother of God. To focus on Christ we find ourselves looking through the lens of Mary's life. Everything In Christ's Messianic Law and prophesies. God only reveals himself from behind a veil of the Tabernacle in the Old Covenant. Each article of the Tabernacle can be seen portray some aspect Christ's life. As an example, we see his teaching the “way of the truth” as narrow as the Tabernacle's gate, the light of Christ is symbolized by the Menorah, the Apostles were unleavened and represented the Shewbread. The Holy of Holies contained the veil that separated the Ark from the inner court. It contained the incense altar, the table of the Bread of Presence (12 loaves), the menorah, It was. Mary was the sanctuary housed the Ark of the Covenant, (Cf. Ex. 25-31 and Ex. 36 – 40). Every furnishing including the Mercy Seat in the Holy of Holies itself is of God.

Mary's womb becomes encompasses God; the Tabernacle as seen behind the Alter. What once was made holy by God must remain holy; this was the Law of the chosen people. The Tabernacle now empty cannot. Thus this Woman that bore Christ cleansed of original sin, the new Eave. The verse, Jeremiah 31:22 How long wilt thou be dissolute in deliciousness, O wandering daughter? For the Lord hath created a new thing upon the earth: A WOMAN SHALL COMPASS A MAN shows us we must conclude that Mary was Immaculate. Mary was protected as it were, from experience the original sin of Adam. How does one COMPASS Christ the man without COMPASSING the God that is Christ? At the moment God was infused, and conceived, Mary's Womb would have been spiritually clean; as clean as the ritual cleansing of the Tabernacle of Moses. Thus Mary's womb became the dwelling place of God, a Holy of Holies. This Tabernacle would have remained pure as did Mary in her of life celibacy.

Christ, the New Covenant, was placed in the Ark of the New Covenant, the womb of Mary. (Cf. Luke 1, Rev 11:19, Rev 12:1) God was infused into Christ at the moment of conception, within the womb of Mary, Christ, whose two natures is God and man. Thus after the proper time, Christ was born of Mary as according to “Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb and shalt bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name Jesus. 32 He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father: and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. 33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end.” (Luke 1: 31-33) Eventually, He passes through the veil. Christ becomes the Menorah (light) of the world, whose Word fell on the Altar of Incense to raise as a pleasing scent to God.

Christ, the Jewish Messiah, was born in the Tabernacle, so too was the Church of Jesus Christ born in the womb of Mary. And when He hung on the Cross, giving up the ghost he gave a loud cry. “And the veil of the temple was rent in two, from the top to the bottom.” With his death was the beginning, the birth of the newly commissioned Church, built on Peter. As promised to be with us always, Christ is truly present; being sacrificial lamb of both the Old Testament and the New. As He cried on the Cross, the Holy Spirit conceived the Church of Jesus Christ. In we see sacrificial exposure of the bread (Apostles) to the Face of God (Cf Matthew 16). As Christ adopted an earth father, so did the Mystical Body of Christ, His Church, adopt an earthly father, 'father', 'papa', the 'Pope', a fisher of men.

We call Mary's protection from original sin the “Immaculate Conception.” Mary is granted a singular privilege or grace being preserved from all stain of original sin at birth. The Church holds that at the moment her soul was infused into her body she was granted this Grace. There is no “scriptural proof” However, Genesis 3:15 suggests that Mary will will “crush” the head of the serpent. In Luke 1:28 we hear that Mary is “full of grace.” Tradition holds that Origen believed that Mary had a special advantage in grace. St. Chrysostom.

Ever Virgin:

Antiquity also held that that tradition held Mary is the Mother of God, attested to by the Council of Ephesus in 431AD. She is perpetually virgin, immaculately conceived, and assumed into heaven. The Nazarene woman, Mary, was born without ever knowing original sin being “FULL OF GRACE.” Her conception and birth was kept free from the stain of original sin and remained pure throughout her life.

Mary's Immaculate Conception:

The Virgin Mother of God would not be conceived by Anna before grace would bear its fruits; it was proper that she be conceived as the first-born, by whom "the first-born of every creature" would be conceived. They testified, too, that the flesh of the Virgin, although derived from Adam, did not contract the stains of Adam, and that on this account the most Blessed Virgin was the tabernacle created by God himself and formed by the Holy Spirit, truly a work in royal purple, adorned and woven with gold, which that new Beseleel made. Pope Pius IX ineffabilis Deus, December 8, 1854

Mary was Ever Virgin:

You say that Mary did not continue a virgin: I claim still more, that Joseph himself on account of Mary was a virgin, so that from a virgin wedlock a virgin son was born. For if as a holy man he does not come under the imputation of fornication, and it is nowhere written that he had another wife, but was the guardian of Mary whom he was supposed to have to wife rather than her husband, the conclusion is that he who was thought worthy to be called father of the Lord, remained a virgin. St. Jerome, Against Helvidius 383 c.

Roman Catholic beliefs:

"We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful." Pope Pius IX Ineffabilis Deus, December 8, 1854

So you see, Mary is far from a meager woman because of her humble obedience she is our hope.



JoeT

JoeT,

I understand your belief system. When I said she was a MERE woman, I only meant to imply that she needed to be saved just like me. I know she was blessed and how awesome for her to be chosen to give birth to our Lord. I don't take it lightly... I just don't adore or worship her for it. AND she isn't my hope at all. She was an obedient servant who found great favor with God. While that is admirable, MY HOPE is always and forever placed in the Lord Jesus Christ and his finished work on the cross.

James and Jude were the Lord's half brothers. I know, I know... you aren't buying THAT either.

I believe that Mary WAS a virgin when she gave birth to the Lord Jesus. ( and this truth in some so called Christian churches is now being given up completely!) So SEE we CAN agree on some things. AND I believe we BOTH agree that the Lord Jesus was fully God and fully man. So we should celebrate the things we do have in common.

In time you will see the error of your ways grumpy Joe and when you do... I will be here for you.. lol lol ( yes, I think I'm funny) :)

Unknown,

I agree we are not to worship anything other than the Lord Jesus Christ. And no matter how "Gody" or "spirtual" something may appear we aren't to make an idol and worship it. These so called visions or pictures of Mary that appear on a wall or whatever... THIS is an example of nonsense and people putting hope in something they can see. Oh and dare I say... going to see the POPE as if he is somehow closer to the Lord Jesus Christ than the average believer baffles me. He is worshipped as someone HOLY... it is nuts and clearly NOT the mind of our LOrd.

Thanks for the responses, though that took quite some time! Lol ;)

Now that you mention the pope, I don't even quite understand the system, and don't want to know. The simple fact that when the pope is chosen, black smoke will be 'discharged by the chimney' is strange to me... Wouldn't it rather be white, to show purity?

Anyway, I consider the pope as any other man. It's just one man chosen out from other man, all sinners. I may have respect for him, but not to the point of 'worshipping' him. We should focus on God, and God only (well, that's what I believe).

I'm also wondering about something... If someday, 'you' become pope (I know that the chances for that are extremely small, if not impossible), would you be adoring yourself, worshipping yourself? That would be quite... stupid I should say.

Ok, I'll take it that the pictures and statues of Mary are only decorations as far as they remain decorations. In another perspective, a cross, the 'fish', etc are symbols to show that one is christian, no more.

And I'm still waiting for the 'veneration' v/s 'worship'... what makes them different from each other, if you please (those who mentioned it)

Divine worship is our reverence or homage paid to God and God alone. This is a worship of ‘latria’, a Greek word that has taken on the meaning of a servant petitioning and expressing supreme honor given God and God alone. Adoration would be the type of honor that is called ‘dulia,’ a Greek word that means the honor that is due men who have served God. When praying to a saint, it is an indirect petition to God; it’s understood that God’s will is the agent that responds. The adoration given Mary is termed ‘hyperdulia’, a supreme honor.

St. Thomas Aquinas describes it best in paraphrasing St. Augsutine:
Augustine says (De Civ. Dei x), that "the homage due to man, of which the Apostle spoke when he commanded servants to obey their masters and which in Greek is called dulia, is distinct from latria which denotes the homage that consists in the worship of God." St. Thomas (II-II:103:3) (St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica)

As some might find the difference between ‘worship’ and ‘adoration’ strange, I find it equally strange that God’s holiness lived in the lives of the saints would be ridiculed. The holiness found in these individuals should be held as an example and called on to pray for us.

There must be a misunderstanding someplace, because Catholics consider the Pope to be a man, the Pope considers himself to be a man, and a sinner. The Church doesn’t ‘worship’ him, nor does he worship himself.

JoeT

JoeT,

I ridicule NO person ( I hope I didn't anyhow)... nor do I give them adoration or worship. I wouldn't bow to them nor would I pray to them. They are but people who needed salvation just like me.

I'm glad the Pope considers himself a man and a sinner for he IS. Perhaps the misunderstandings are because of the way people seem to worship him and the fact that he allows it by letting them bow before him. I don't know? Maybe I'm way out of line or wrong. In my mind it goes beyond paying respect because he represents Christianity and is considered a religious figure. I met a Pastor that I think a lot of at a book signing. I admire him aa a strong Pastor and teacher of the word and I was happy to shake his hand. But there is NO way I would bow to him, or kiss his ring or call him HOly Father. So that is why I suppose we non catholics are a little baffled.

Personally, as a Christian woman, I ADMIRE the apsotle Paul. Oh, I admire all of the apostles but he has a special place in my heart for all he suffered to preach the gospel. He understood Grace like no other Apostle. I guess I am extra careful where I place my "supreme honor". As much as I admire Paul,I'm not sure I would use those two words and more importantly... I don't think Paul would want me too. He was a servant of Jesus Christ. AlL praise, honor, worship and goes to the only one who is truly worthy... the Lord Jesus Christ.

It's good that you admire the Apostle Paul. Your admiration is a form of adoration. Catholics call on the Apostles, saints, and angels in heaven to pray God for us. I'm no specially brave soldier who can march through life, alone, without spiritual pathfinders. Being a sinner, on occasion, I find it necessary to muster all the help heaven can assemble. “Call now, if there be any that will answer thee, and turn to some of the saints.” (Job 5:1)

I suspect that part of the difference in our faiths is that Catholics, like many others, believe in a living faith. That is we celebrate life, both natural and spiritual. When death comes it doesn't separate us from those in the Kingdom of Heaven. Catholics believe in a community of saints that binds the faithful on earth with those souls in purgatory and those in heaven. Perhaps you don't hold to the same tenants but you may recall the Apostles Creed:


“ I believe in God the Father Almighty Creator of Heaven and earth And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord; (3) Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, Suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead ; He ascended into Heaven, sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Ghost, 9) The Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints The forgiveness of sins, 11) The resurrection of the body, an life everlasting." (Emphases is mine)

We believe that those faithful here on earth (the Church Militant) are in communion with our prayers with those in purgatory, the Church Suffering, and in communion with our prayers with those in Heaven, the Church Triumphant. This is a communion of the body of One Church transcending death through a spiritual unity in Christ. Thus, we hold that the saints can intercede with their prayers, and we hold the necessity of indulgencies, and the veneration of the saints. “… you are come to mount Sion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to the company of many thousands of angels, And to the church of the firstborn who are written in the heavens, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the just made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new testament, and to the sprinkling of blood which speaketh better than that of Abel.” (Heb 12:12)

St. Thomas answers the issue of whether to pray to the saints.


Article 2. Whether we ought to call upon the saints to pray for us?:

... Further, the saints who are in heaven are more acceptable to God than those who are on the way. Now we should make the saints, who are on the way, our intercessors with God, after the example of the Apostle, who said (Romans 15:30): "I beseech you . . . brethren, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and by the charity of the Holy Ghost, that you help me in your prayers for me to God." Much more, therefore, should we ask the saints who are in heaven to help us by their prayers to God.( St. Thomas Aquinas, The Summa Theologica, III, supp, 72)

Article 3. Whether the prayers which the saints pour forth to God for us are always granted? :

It is written (2 Maccabees 15:14): "This is he that prayeth much for the people, and for all the holy city, Jeremias the prophet of God": and that his prayer was granted is clear from what follows (2 Maccabees 15:15): "Jeremias stretched forth his right hand, and gave to Judas a sword of gold, saying: Take this holy sword, a gift from God," etc.

Further, Jerome says (Ep. contra Vigilant.): "Thou sayest in thy pamphlets, that while we live, we can pray for one another, but that when we are dead no one's prayer for another will be heard": and afterwards he refutes this in the following words: "If the apostles and martyrs while yet in the body can pray for others, while they are still solicitous for themselves, how much more can they do so when the crown, the victory, the triumph is already theirs!"

Further, this is confirmed by the custom of the Church, which often asks to be assisted by the prayers of the saints. (St. Thomas Aquinas, The Summa Theologica, III, supp, 72)

JoeT

Joe,
I firmly believe is the communion of saints.
Fred

Okay, thanks for pointing those points out. :)

I'm a little confused too about Mary though... You previously said that supreme worship 'latria' is given to God alone, which is partly expressing supreme honour, and then Mary also gets supreme honour, though it is called differently, hyperdulia :confused:

I think it is okay to pray for others, for example asking for their protection and well being, etc. Conversely, it seems to me that some Catholics sort of 'exaggerate'. I know that's a poor claim because I cannot generalise, but I would like to know how you think about the people who practice around you. :)

The difference between hyperdulia and latria is the degree of honor. We know that it is God’s will that causes the response to the prayer. On the other hand, the saints can only act as an agent of God, and Mary, being a saint, is due honor with dulia. However, having carried Christ for nine months, Mary is given hyperdulia for her unique closeness to Christ.

I can’t speak for anybody but myself, but I think you’ve gotten the wrong impression about Catholics ‘praying’ to the saints. If they were in fact praying TO Mary expecting her to act through her will, then criticism would be in order. Don’t confuse devotion to the memory of a saint with the 'worship' of a saint.


JoeT

JoeT,

Why go through someone else when I can enter the throne of God myself. When Jesus died on the cross the veil was torn... This side of the cross we have the AWESOME privilege of going straight to the FATHER. Now, I LOVE for other Christians to pray for me or with me. And we are told to do this in the Bible. In the book of James we find the sick can call for the elders to anoint them with oil and lay hands on them when they pray. But see, they need to actually be ALIVE physically to do this. No where are we instructed to talk to the dead. In fact it was forbbidden in the OT. You remember the story of King Saul and the witch of Endor... not a good outcome there for Saul.

Here is something to consider Joe, how do you know anyone other than the Lord Jesus can hear you? I mean, I don't see anywhere in the word where the dead in Christ even know what is going on in individual lives. They are men and women who have died NOT gods. We get a glimpse in Revelation of silence in heaven when the Lord opens up the judgment bowls and the like but other than that... there is nothing to suggest they are even able to hear us.

Now, I just re read your post... you are saying that catholics don't pray to the dead saints? Well, now I am really confused because I thought they did. Some that I know do...

We could take it a bit further and say why pray at all, doesn’t an omnipotent God know what’s in our hearts and minds; doesn’t he already know the forthcoming events and our needs? The answer is yes. So why pray at all?

The answer isn’t so much what you pray for as it is why you pray. St. Gregory says we’re to call on God humbly and thus should turn to the saints to pray God for us. Since saints are in heaven nearest to God, then by Divine order they would be the most humble. “And since our return to God should correspond to the outflow of His boons upon us, just as the Divine favors reach us by means of the saints intercession, so should we, by their means, be brought back to God, that we may receive His favors again. Hence it is that we make them our intercessors with God, and our mediators as it were, when we ask them to pray for us.” Asking the saints to pray God for us is also following the Divine Order of the Universe, i.e. God’s goodness doesn’t come from a ‘softhearted’ weakness in His mercy, but rather a forgiveness in the His plan of redemption. It is the Holy Spirit that desires that the saints pray for us and in us so that prayer becomes knowledge of His Love for us. “Likewise, the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity. For, we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit himself asketh for us with unspeakable groanings, (Rom 8:26) Praying is to come to know God and His mercies. We ask the saints to pray for us to experience their meekness, thus learning the practice of an unassuming nature of our spiritual and physical afflictions.

Don’t mistake prayer as tokens for God’s great vending machine of Divine Mercies – it simply doesn’t work that way. Prayer is speaking to God. Speaking to God results in knowledge of God; not favors, wishes, or dreams apple plumbs.

It is written (Psalm 140:2): "Let my prayer be directed as incense in Thy sight": and a gloss on the passage says that "it was to signify this that under the old Law incense was said to be offered for a sweet smell to the Lord." Now this belongs to religion. Therefore prayer is an act of religion. St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica II-II, 83.

Now you've confused me, how does one ask a dead saint to pray? And wouldn't a 'dead' saint reside in ---that bad place--- not in heaven? Why would I ask somebody in hell to pray for me? See, Catholics don't have 'dead' saints; they are all spriitually alive!

JoeT


JoeT

JoeT,

Lol. Now Joseph you knew what I meant. Of course they are spiritually alive but that doesn't mean they are all knowing. I see know indications from scripture that they know us individually. I wouldn't pray to my Grandmother who I believe is "spritually alive" and with the Lord Jesus and she DOES know me.

I have no clue who St. Gregory is... but I think he might be confused. Because the BIBLE says I can come BOLDLY to the throne of grace in the book of Hebrews. Boldy would suggest with confidence, without hesitation or inhibition. Not once in the BIBLE does it say to turn to the saints in heaven that are close to God. I do have a High Priest though that the Bible says LIVES to make intercessions for me... that of course is my Savior.

Joe, I appreciate your posts. You are one informed catholic. I just strongly disagree on this issue.

classyT,
The saints in heaven have become on with God as Jesus said and prayed.
Therefore they know what is going on far, far better than anyone living in this mortal life does.
And as God told Job, we should converse with the saints.
I do on occasion to ask them to pray for me, but most of my prayers are to the triune God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

If they were in fact praying TO Mary expecting her to act through her will, then criticism would be in order.

That explains everything! That confirmed that the Catholics I know are in the wrong path. The extremists I know have photos of 'Mary' all over their home, only statues of virgins, one virgin for peace, another for whatever other names they call them. I'm sort of relieved that not all Catholics pray to saints.


I have no clue who St. Gregory is...

Nor me lol! :p


not once in the BIBLE does it say to turn to the saints in heaven that are close to God.


And as God told Job, we should converse with the saints.

I too have never seen such a thing in the bible. Now, I haven't read the whole thing yet, but would you please tell which chapter and verse in Job. I know it's quite a lengthy book. :o

That explains everything! That confirmed that the Catholics I know are in the wrong path. The extremists I know have photos of 'Mary' all over their home, only statues of virgins, one virgin for peace, another for whatever other names they call them. I'm sort of relieved that not all Catholics pray to saints.

Based on our conversation here, I’m quite sure you’ve drawn the wrong impression. If they are Catholic it’s likely they don’t worship statutes of ‘virgins.’

FYI - Pope St. Gregory I ("the Great")

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: St. Gregory the Great (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06780a.htm)


I too have never seen such a thing in the bible. Now, I haven't read the whole thing yet, but would you please tell which chapter and verse in Job. I know it's quite a lengthy book. :o

So’s you don’t have to read the whole thing;

“Call now, if there be any that will answer thee, and turn to some of the saints.” (Job 5:1 - NEW ADVENT BIBLE: Job 5 (http://www.newadvent.org/bible/job005.htm) )

JoeT

“Call now, if there be any that will answer thee, and turn to some of the saints.” (Job 5:1 - NEW ADVENT BIBLE: Job 5 (http://www.newadvent.org/bible/job005.htm) )

JoeT

That is a very bad translation of that verse which reads
"Call now if you will but who will answer you, to which of the holy ones will you turn" (NIV)
And taken out of context, Job is being questioned about which gods he might turn to for there were no saints available, so this verse cannot sanction intercession to the saints. It is clear from this verse that Job will find help in God alone

It is interesting that shortly after the warning is given
"I myself have seen a fool taking root":)

classyT,

And as God told Job, we should converse with the saints.



Very poor bible reading, translation, and interpretation there Fred. How could God tell Job to converse with the saints when there were no saints. You should go back and read Chapter 4 and 5 to see who is speaking and what the context is. You will find that the spirit is telling Eliphaz that consulting "holy ones" is futile and he is relaying this to Job. Help comes from God alone.

Paraclete,

I actually have read Job several times and I never got the any indication from any verse that we should pray to a saint at anytime. And my next line was going to be.".there WERE NO SAINTS" but I see you made that point for me.

And consider the story of King Saul and how the Lord forbid talking to the souls who had passed on. Saul wanted to speak to Samuel a prophet of God... Saul sought out the witch of Endor to bring Sameul back. Notice that Samuel didn't appreciate it either... he wanted to know why he was being disquieted. And things went really bad for King Saul right after the incident.

The Lord Jesus wants and desires a relationship with us. He doesn't need a third party to help out. From everything I have read the Lord wants ME to talk to him directly, daily. That is why the veil was ripped top to bottom... So I could BOLDLY come to the throne of Grace... with confiendence.

That is a very bad translation of that verse which reads
"Call now if you will but who will answer you, to which of the holy ones will you turn" (NIV)
and taken out of context, Job is being questioned about which gods he might turn to for there were no saints available, so this verse cannot sanction intercession to the saints. It is clear from this verse that Job will find help in God alone

It is interesting that shortly after the warning is given
"I myself have seen a fool taking root":)

It's not a bad translation at all. I think the problem you're having is in the narrative of Job. Job isn't talking at all. Let's take a look at the verse, “Call now, if there be any that will answer thee, and turn to some of the saints.” (Job 5:1 - Douay-Rheims)

In the previous chapter Eliphas is mocking and, in a roundabout way, accuses Job of some impropriety, after all God doesn't punish the innocent; right? Don't those who hold the once-saved-always-saved doctrine believe that God never inflects suffering on the innocent? Eliphas continues mocking Job, by saying try and call; see who answers you. Contemptuously Eliphas asks to see which of the saints he will turn to for comfort since none seem to answer.

And why not mock Job? I'd answer that we are sometimes asked to suffer along with Christ in His name. And Job does so patiently, steadfast to his trust in God.

In an attempt to make Job confess his sins, Eliphas reminds him that only a fool would be so obstinate. So, as here, we have the fool calling those suffering innocently, a fool. Who, turns out to be the bigger fool in the end of the story of Job?

But, just to make sure we haven't infected our Catholic understanding on verse 1 of Job let's look at how some of the other translations render the same verse; especially now that we understand the narrative.


Job 5:1Call now, if there be any that will answer thee; and to which of the saints wilt thou turn? (King James Version)

[OH no! it's in the KJV version. Those rascally Catholics must've snuck that in there too! No doubt it's a Catholic plot – let's look at the NIV]

Job 5:1 "Call if you will, but who will answer you? To which of the holy ones will you turn? (New International Version )

[Good? - no saints here. But, who are the 'holy ones'?]

Job 5:1"Call now, is there anyone who will answer you? And to which of the holy ones will you turn? New (American Standard Bible (NASB)

[Opps we got holy ones here too. 'Holy ones' could be saints? See Job 15:15 – but then we must recognize this translation renders the same way – 'pray to the saints'. ]

Job 5: 1 Eliphaz continued, "Call out if you want to, Job. But who will answer you? Which one of the holy angels will you turn to? (New International Reader's Version )

[The NIVRV only changes saints to 'holy angels' nothing new here except that still generally conforms to Catholic understanding of the verse.]

Job 5: 1 "Call if you will, but who will answer you? To which of the holy ones will you turn? (Today's New International Version)
[TNIV version is more of the same, but, the punctuation seems helpful – at least, it does if you like the Catholic rendition of this verse]


But, let's continue to see if we can find more scriptural evidence to praying or supplicating to the saints; we have Jacob who after fighting an Angel prays to him. "Jacob prevailed over the Angel, and wept and made supplication to him." (Hosea 12: 4). Furthermore we see that Paul teaches to 'communicate' with the saints.


Rom 12:11-13 In carefulness not slothful. In spirit fervent. Serving the Lord. Rejoicing in hope. Patient in tribulation. Instant in prayer. Communicating to the necessities of the saints. Pursuing hospitality.

Not just an offhanded prayer, but prayers that are 'reverent', 'hopeful', 'patient', that is “He does not say, Bestow upon, but share with the necessity of the saints, to show that they receive more than they give, that it is a matter of merchandise, because it is a community. Do you bring in money? They bring you in boldness toward God. Given to (Gr. pursuing) hospitality. He does not say doing it, but given to it, so to instruct us not to wait for those that shall ask it, and see when they will come to us, but to run to them, and be given to finding them.” (St. Chrysostom, Homily 21)

Then of course we have Paul again who sends his three deacons to the Corinthians who minister to the saints. Paul turns his conversation in Chapter 16 to the “collections that are made for the saints.” How would such a verse be rendered with regard to praying to the saints?

And I beseech you, brethren, you know the house of Stephanas, and of Fortunatus, and of Achaicus, that they are the firstfruits of Achaia, and have dedicated themselves to the ministry of the saints: (1 Cor 16:15 ) “And that they flourished in good works also, he declares by what follows, saying, They have set themselves to minister unto the saints.” (St. St. Chrysostom, Homily 44)

JoeT

paraclete,
"There were no saints"??
Jesus said there were saints. I believe Him and not you.
He even said that they were living and not dead.
Matthew 22: 31. "But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken to you by God, saying,
32. `I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
33. And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

paraclete,

32. `I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

Fred look at the Scripture you have just used, what does it say? There is no focus on the dead here, no focus on the "saints", follow Jesus, Fred, not the flawed sayings and teachings of men

paraclete,
What Jesus said applies to all saints since Adam and eve.
Fred

paraclete,
What Jesus said applies to all saints since Adam and eve.
Fred

There were no saints until Jesus made them so, Adam and Eve were not saints but examples of how not to live

Fred and Joe,

Of course all that had faith and died physically are NOW with the Father. But back before Jesus death and resurrection they were NOT with the Father in heaven. This is just one of the many things the death and resurrection of the Lord did. The Lord Jesus himself was able to march all of those OT believers in the presence of the Father. Before that time, they were in the same place as the unbelievers only they were in a resting place and a great gulf separated them from those that were in torment. We get a picture of this when Jesus spoke about a CERTAIN beggar man named Lazarus and the rich man.

I agree that "positionally" they were all saints before the death of the Lord Jesus but until He made the atonement for them on the cross they could not be with the Father. The blood of the animals covered them until HIS blood could make full atonement and wash them. Until that happened, they absolutely were NOT in the presence of the MOST HIGH GOD. So your theory of them being with the Father and therefore CLOSER to him... could not possiibly be so.

Again I will ask, when the writer of HEbrews says we NOW may come boldly to the throne of Grace and enter into HIS presence to speak to HIM... why would we need to humbly ask a "saint" who has already passed to interceed for us? Can't find that scripture ANYWHERE in the BIBLE. I can't find one scripture to suggest they know us individually and are able to HEAR anything we say. From everything I can find... "spritually and postionally" speaking I am just as close to the Father and have access to HiM as anyone who has passed from this life into heaven. See, Christ is IN ME. Can't get much closer than that.

NOTE: Joe... I KNOW the Lord is not the God of the dead but the LIVING! But that doesn't mean the onces that passed on can HEAR US! They are NOT GOD.

I view the scripture of Job 5:2-3 saying how foolish it is to think your envy for the saint would cause you to call on them. And God's wrath would be concerning this foolish deed.

REFER:
Job 5:2-3 For wrath killeth the foolish man, and envy slayeth the silly one. I have seen the foolish taking root: but suddenly I cursed his habitation.

The hungry for the truth or fruitfulness can be swallowed up, because it was taken out of thorns. The intrepretation of these verses must be watched carefully.
REFER:
Job 5:5 Whose harvest the hungry eateth up, and taketh it even out of the thorns, and the robber swalloweth up their substance.

Instead we seek God for all the righteousness of HIS truth. HIS power does great things, marvellous things beyond any amount.

REFER:
Job 5:8 I would seek unto God, and unto God would I commit my cause

Hmm.. my bible is in French, (no worries) but it says angel instead of saints in Job 5:1, also in Rom 12:11-13. However in 1 Cor 16:15, here it says brothers... :confused:

Also, I agree with sndbay with what is in the context in Job 5:1-5. The first verse is like sarcasm asking to call and realise that he could call, but no one would answer.

Wait... does that mean you are arguing that you (JoeT and acura) do pray to the saints?

In chapter 5 of Job we do see the contempt for praying to the saints being stated by Eliphas. Eliphaz, Baldad and Sophar are three friends of Job. Eliphaz was a sage, Baidad and Sophar were well regarded Arabian leaders. But, Eliphas is mocking Job (maybe goading is a better word), in an attempt to get Job to confess his sins. It's obvious from the narrative that Job's neighbors are worried that the curse placed on Job will also visit them. But, Job is patient in his suffering – which is the moral of the story. Also see CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Job (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08413a.htm)



Chapter 1. Job's virtue and riches. Satan by permission from God strippeth him of all his substance. His patience.
Chapter 2. Satan, by God's permission, striketh Job with ulcers from head to foot: his patience is still invincible.
Chapter 3. Job expresseth his sense of the miseries of man's life, by cursing the day of his birth.
Chapter 4. Eliphas charges Job with impatience, and pretends that God never afflicts the innocent.
Chapter 5. Eliphaz proceeds in his charge, and exhorts Job to acknowledge his sins.
Chapter 6. Job maintains his innocence, and complains of his friends.
Chapter 7. Job declares the miseries of man's life: and addresses himself to God.
Chapter 8. Baldad, under pretence of defending the justice of God, accuses Job, and exhorts him to return to God.
Chapter 9. Job acknowledges God's justice: although he often afflicts the innocent.
Chapter 10. Job laments his afflictions and begs to be delivered.
Chapter 11. Sophar reproves Job, for justifying himself, and invites him to repentance.
And finally,
Chapter 42. Job submits himself. God pronounces in his favour. Job offers sacrifice for his friends. He is blessed with riches and children, and dies happily,
Source: NEW ADVENT BIBLE: Job (http://www.newadvent.org/bible/job000.htm)

If verses 2, 3 and 4 in chapter 5 of Job are meant to show the folly of praying to an intercessor then there is a conflict with the entire book of Job; God appears to be schizophrenic. This is apparent when God dresses down Eliphaz for his foolish advice to Job. God tells Eliphaz to go to Job and have intercede on his behalf.

…he [the Lord] said to Eliphaz the Themanite: My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends, because you have not spoken the thing that is right before me, as my servant Job hath. Take unto you therefore seven oxen and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer for yourselves a holocaust, and my servant Job shall pray for you: his face I will accept, that folly be not imputed to you: for you have not spoken right things before me, as my servant Job hath. (Job 42:7-8)

JoeT

Wait... does that mean you are arguing that you (JoeT and acura) do pray to the saints?

Yes I do pray to saints, and to Mary, but I don't worship saints or Mary.

What we have to remember is, that it is an honour to serve God.

A saint would be thankful and would humble themselves to serve! It is not that they are given honour by what they did, but they were honoured to do what was necessary.

Have you ever said your welcome to someone, and let them know it was a honour to help them. (humble yourself)

Refer:
1 Peter 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

What we have to remember is, that it is an honour to serve God.

A saint would be thankful and would humble themselves to serve! It is not that they are given honour by what they did, but they were honoured to do what was necessary.

Have you ever said your welcome to someone, and let them know it was a honour to help them. (humble yourself)

Refer:
1 Peter 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

How does this affect our conversation - that Catholics pray to saints? I missed the significance.

JoeT

How does this affect our conversation - that Catholics pray to saints? I missed the significance.

JoeT

It all goes back to why you pray to them. Why you have hope of them helping you.

In chapter 38 of Job, God has told Job to get up, and to stop listening to those that know nothing. Will you believe God and trust God?

Hmmm... interesting... good points sndbay. :)

But, let's continue to see if we can find more scriptural evidence to praying or supplicating to the saints; we have Jacob who after fighting an Angel prays to him. "Jacob prevailed over the Angel, and wept and made supplication to him." (Hosea 12: 4).


Hosea 12:3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God 12:4 Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto Him: He found him in Bethel, and there He spake with us

(he wept Jacob) by which former histories are supplemented by later Divine inspiration.
(God found Jacob) (Jehovah spake)

Genesis 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.






Furthermore we see that Paul teaches to 'communicate' with the saints.


Rom 12:11-13 In carefulness not slothful. In spirit fervent. Serving the Lord. Rejoicing in hope. Patient in tribulation. Instant in prayer. Communicating to the necessities of the saints. Pursuing hospitality.
JoeT

Those saints to communicated to are as written and interpretated in Romans1:7

Romans 12:12-13 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.

Distributing means communicating
REFER
Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Hey thanks for shedding more light onto that sndbay. :)

Hey thanks for shedding more light onto that sndbay. :)

It is an honour to serve God

~In Christ

It all goes back to why you pray to them. Why you have hope of them helping you.

In chapter 38 of Job, God has told Job to get up, and to stop listening to those that know nothing. Will you believe God and trust God?

Yeah, He is referring to the three ninnies, and their friends, that keep giving him bad advice, those who “darken My words”. Considered any other way and you've butchered the entire narrative.

In this story we have the three antagonists, Job, and God. The antagonists want Job to confess to something he didn't do, they want Job to give up his patience and trust in God, they don't want Job to persevere in his faith. God then turns around, sets things right with Job and chastises the antagonists.

It's a classic story, in which praying to the saints plays an important role. Take that out and Job's trials mean nothing.

JoeT

It’s a classic story, in which praying to the saints plays an important role. Take that out and Job's trials mean nothing.

JoeT

I disagree

Remember Elijah's teaching,

And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken.


REFER:
Jeremiah 33:3 Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.

I disagree

Remember Elijah's teaching,

And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken.


REFER:
Jeremiah 33:3 Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.

I'm not calling on the name of 'gods'

JoeT

Added Note: PS. – maybe there is more to your statement than meets the eye. Those being called on in prayer are saints, i.e. adopted sons of God. Taking your comment here at face value, you'd be suggesting that the saints are really pagan gods. Is this what is being said?

In chapter 5 of Job we do see the contempt for praying to the saints being stated by Eliphas. Eliphaz, Baldad and Sophar are three friends of Job. Eliphaz was a sage, Baidad and Sophar were well regarded Arabian leaders. But, Eliphas is mocking Job (maybe goading is a better word), in an attempt to get Job to confess his sins. It’s obvious from the narrative that Job’s neighbors are worried that the curse placed on Job will also visit them. But, Job is patient in his suffering – which is the moral of the story. Also see CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Job (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08413a.htm)



Chapter 1. Job's virtue and riches. Satan by permission from God strippeth him of all his substance. His patience.
Chapter 2. Satan, by God's permission, striketh Job with ulcers from head to foot: his patience is still invincible.
Chapter 3. Job expresseth his sense of the miseries of man's life, by cursing the day of his birth.
Chapter 4. Eliphas charges Job with impatience, and pretends that God never afflicts the innocent.
Chapter 5. Eliphaz proceeds in his charge, and exhorts Job to acknowledge his sins.
Chapter 6. Job maintains his innocence, and complains of his friends.
Chapter 7. Job declares the miseries of man's life: and addresses himself to God.
Chapter 8. Baldad, under pretence of defending the justice of God, accuses Job, and exhorts him to return to God.
Chapter 9. Job acknowledges God's justice: although he often afflicts the innocent.
Chapter 10. Job laments his afflictions and begs to be delivered.
Chapter 11. Sophar reproves Job, for justifying himself, and invites him to repentance.
And finally,
Chapter 42. Job submits himself. God pronounces in his favour. Job offers sacrifice for his friends. He is blessed with riches and children, and dies happily,
Source: NEW ADVENT BIBLE: Job (http://www.newadvent.org/bible/job000.htm)

If verses 2, 3 and 4 in chapter 5 of Job are meant to show the folly of praying to an intercessor then there is a conflict with the entire book of Job; God appears to be schizophrenic. This is apparent when God dresses down Eliphaz for his foolish advice to Job. God tells Eliphaz to go to Job and have intercede on his behalf.

…he [the Lord] said to Eliphaz the Themanite: My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends, because you have not spoken the thing that is right before me, as my servant Job hath. Take unto you therefore seven oxen and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer for yourselves a holocaust, and my servant Job shall pray for you: his face I will accept, that folly be not imputed to you: for you have not spoken right things before me, as my servant Job hath. (Job 42:7-8)

JoeT
All you have proven here is that Fred has offered us a foolish interpretation of the words in Job

all you have proven here is that Fred has offered us a foolish interpretation of the words in Job

Not that it matters but Fred didn't offer the verse first in this discussion. It's been the accepted interpretation of Job since Christ founded the Catholic Church. It teaches that it is proper to honor certain relics, and to pray for intercession and invocation of saints. The Council of Trent (http://history.hanover.edu/texts/Trent/trentcom.html)

I think Fred is quite wise to follow a real authorty; however there are a few others here that foolishly substitute their own authority over, and interpretation of Scripture.

JoeT

Not that it matters but Fred didn’t offer the verse first in this discussion. It’s been the accepted interpretation of Job since Christ founded the Catholic Church. It teaches that it is proper to honor certain relics, and to pray for intercession and invocation of saints. The Council of Trent (http://history.hanover.edu/texts/Trent/trentcom.html)

I think Fred is quite wise to follow a real authorty; however there are a few others here that foolishly substitute their own authority over, and interpretation of Scripture.

JoeT

Whoever offered us that interpretation of the verse in Job has made a foolish interpretation, I don't care how much tradition is involved or how much authority they or you think they have

whoever offered us that interpretation of the verse in Job has made a foolish interpretation, I don't care how much tradition is involved or how much authority they or you think they have


I offered this line (Job 5:1) first to explain how in Job's day it was common to pray to saints. Apparently it's the first sound exegesis you've seen. You might want to study it; I've attached it here just for your understanding. I realize it might be difficult, but you'll see, it doesn't take distorting other portions of the bible to make our understanding sound and logical.



In chapter 5 of Job we do see the contempt for praying to the saints being stated by Eliphas. Eliphaz, Baldad and Sophar are three friends of Job. Eliphaz was a sage, Baidad and Sophar were well regarded Arabian leaders. But, Eliphas is mocking Job (maybe goading is a better word), in an attempt to get Job to confess his sins. It's obvious from the narrative that Job's neighbors are worried that the curse placed on Job will also visit them. But, Job is patient in his suffering – which is the moral of the story. Also see CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Job (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08413a.htm)



Chapter 1. Job's virtue and riches. Satan by permission from God strippeth him of all his substance. His patience.
Chapter 2. Satan, by God's permission, striketh Job with ulcers from head to foot: his patience is still invincible.
Chapter 3. Job expresseth his sense of the miseries of man's life, by cursing the day of his birth.
Chapter 4. Eliphas charges Job with impatience, and pretends that God never afflicts the innocent.
Chapter 5. Eliphaz proceeds in his charge, and exhorts Job to acknowledge his sins.
Chapter 6. Job maintains his innocence, and complains of his friends.
Chapter 7. Job declares the miseries of man's life: and addresses himself to God.
Chapter 8. Baldad, under pretence of defending the justice of God, accuses Job, and exhorts him to return to God.
Chapter 9. Job acknowledges God's justice: although he often afflicts the innocent.
Chapter 10. Job laments his afflictions and begs to be delivered.
Chapter 11. Sophar reproves Job, for justifying himself, and invites him to repentance.
And finally,
Chapter 42. Job submits himself. God pronounces in his favour. Job offers sacrifice for his friends. He is blessed with riches and children, and dies happily,
Source: NEW ADVENT BIBLE: Job (http://www.newadvent.org/bible/job000.htm)

If verses 2, 3 and 4 in chapter 5 of Job are meant to show the folly of praying to an intercessor then there is a conflict with the entire book of Job; God appears to be schizophrenic. This is apparent when God dresses down Eliphaz for his foolish advice to Job. God tells Eliphaz to go to Job and have intercede on his behalf.

…he [the Lord] said to Eliphaz the Themanite: My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends, because you have not spoken the thing that is right before me, as my servant Job hath. Take unto you therefore seven oxen and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer for yourselves a holocaust, and my servant Job shall pray for you: his face I will accept, that folly be not imputed to you: for you have not spoken right things before me, as my servant Job hath. (Job 42:7-8)

JoeT



JoeT

I offered this line (Job 5:1) first to explain how in Job’s day it was common to pray to saints. Apparently its the first sound exegesis you've seen. You might want to study it; I’ve attached it here just for your understanding. I realize it might be difficult, but you’ll see, it doesn’t take distorting other portions of the bible to make our understanding sound and logical.


JoeT

Do you actually have any idea what Job's day might have been like? Job was, it appears, a contemporary of Abraham. He lived in a time when there was sparse population, few believers and he was the priest of his household. There were no saints to pray to. If he prayed to anyone other than Father God it would have been to lesser deities described in a correct translation of the text as holy ones. The passage actually says that Job won't get any help from that source. I suggest you take to reading the whole of Job to place it all in context

The saints didn't exist in Job's day so what you are suggesting is he was into some sort of ancestor worship or paganism. Hardly likely. Using the Old Testament to justify concepts which arose after Jesus death and the New Testament was written is not a great idea. What you are trying to do is justify a Catholic viewpoint for which there is no Biblical confirmation.

paraclete,
In that verse Jesus was talking about saints who passed this life centuries before he was born.
AND I agree with Joe, and Jesus and the bible
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Jesus and the bible
Peace and kindness,
Fred


Then read HIS WORDS of the bible



1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

As the underline shows, this applies to those who truely believe in the Son of God.

John 15:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us

Confidence that is trust in Christ.

1 John 15:15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

"IF" is the underline truth that can rest in HIS glory for every man's heart and mind of choice. "IF" we know HE hears us.
Truth of God's Will

2 Corinthians 2:8 Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.

Hebrew 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.


Fred, those of us here are saying follow Christ.. Ask yourself, if we are wrong to follow Christ ? Are we wrong is having confidence and trust in Christ? Where does the bible tell us to put our trust?

It teaches that it is proper to honor certain relics, and to pray for intercession and invocation of saints. The Council of Trent (http://history.hanover.edu/texts/Trent/trentcom.html)

JoeT

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

This scripture is proof that indicates Mary and saints cannot be mediators.

The Scriptures also tell us that Jesus Christ Himself is interceding for us before the Father, "Therefore He is able to save those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them"

REFER:
Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore HE is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by HIM, seeing HE ever liveth to make intercession for them.


The Council of Trent should have considered the HOLY SPIRIT because scripture says the Holy Spirit makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God. And let us remember the saints are spoken of in refer: (Romans 1:7) as all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints

REFER:
Romans 8:25-26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

It's a classic story, in which praying to the saints plays an important role. Take that out and Job's trials mean nothing.

JoeT

You've rendered me speechless with these two statement. Lucky for you, I can still type. :D You missed the entire point of Job if THAT is what you got out of it.

However, once again I am enlightened on why catholics believe the way they do.

BUT:
Psst. JoeT... incidently, My Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ DID NOT start the catholic church. I submit to you that the catholic church is a MAN made institution or "religion". The ONLY religion that the Lord put his stamp of approval on was Judism. Christianity is NOT a church, not a religion, NOT a denomination. It is believing that Jesus WAS God ( and fully man too), lived a sinless life, he died to redeem mankind, and he rose again so that we ( those that believe) could be justified... ( just as if we had NEVER sinned). It is faith in THIS that puts us into the body of Christ ( the church) and ONLY this. Just sos YOU know... :) If you want to know how the "church" should behave, please read the Apostle Pauls' epistles. In them, you will find NO mention of Peter being the first POPE, no mention of Mary being something MORE than an obedient servant to the MOST HIGH,and certainly NO mention of praying to ANY saint.

IN fact, I would challenge you to find any prayer... to a SAINT as an example for US in the OT or NT. ( not some Catholic bible) The Lord Jesus HIMSELF... taught us how to pray. Please also refer to the Apostle Paul's prayers.. not a ONE to a "saint". Now please refer to the OT... how many prayers to a saint is recorded? There is ZIPPOOOOO. In fact, the Jews were instructed NOT to talk to the dead (physically speaking) and I refer you once again to the first King of Israel, who went to the Witch of Endor to speak directly to the prophet of God.. SAMUEL. First Samuel, WAS NOT AMUSED by the disturbance, he was spirtually alive, the so called "witch" was scared spitless and Saul ended up a dead man. You are CORRECT in thinking God isn't.. how do you put it? "Schizophrenic". He does NOT tell a person to pray to the physically DEAD... not now, not EVER. For what power do they have.. Are they God? Are they all knowing? Please... all a "saint" is... is a person who had faith in the Lord Jesus Christ... and his finished work. They cannot do ONE thing. I submit to YOU, that Mary and any other so called "saint" ( because I don't believe Catholics even know what a SAINT is... do you understand that I am a considered a SAINT according the NT)? Was nothing more than a sinful man or woman in need of a savior AND had faith in the LORD and his finished work at calvary.

This is one of the ways we "rightly divide" the word of God. Does it line up with other scripture... like the one you insist is in Job? No it does not. Peter, ( the catholics personal favorite) was the one who wrote that NO scripture was for PRIVATE interpratation.

Now do I think you are going to say... "wow that ClassyT has a point"? NOPE!. I don't. But I still had to speak up... ( or type up ) just the same. :)

Peace and Kindness,

Tess

Amen Tess. And on that note, because this thread has digressed into... Maybe it is time that one of the moderators step in and close it!

You've rendered me speechless with these two statement. Lucky for you, I can still type. :D You missed the entire point of Job if THAT is what you got out of it.

My rendering was in reference to praying to saints - the proposition being discussed here.


IN fact, I would challenge you to find any prayer... to a SAINT

The connection of the faithful in the Church of Jesus Christ spans across the gulf of death and includes both those on earth and in heaven. See the requested scriptural examples of saints interceding, being prayed to, and the faithful told to pray that they intercede for them:



Bless the Lord, all ye his angels: you that are mighty in strength, and execute his word, hearkening to the voice of his orders. Bless the Lord, all ye his hosts: you ministers of his that do his will. Bless the Lord, all his works: in every place of his dominion, O my soul, bless thou the Lord. (Psalm 103:20-22)

The angles and saints are asked to raise their voice in prayer in praise at God’s command. These angles and saints are ‘ministers’; they minster to His Church.



Praise ye the Lord from the heavens: praise ye him in the high places. Praise ye him, all his angels, praise ye him, all his hosts. (Psalm 148)

Why do we praise the angels and saints if they are dead, unable to assist those in the Mystical Body of Christ on earth?



Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Sosthenes a brother, 2 To the church of God that is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that invoke the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place of theirs and ours. 3 Grace to you and peace, from God our father and from the Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor 1:1)



By all prayer and supplication praying at all times in the spirit: and in the same watching with all instance and supplication for all the saints: (Eph 6:18)



From whom the whole body, being compacted and fitly joined together, by what every joint supplieth, according to the operation in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body, unto the edifying of itself in charity. (Eph 4:16)



Now the vision was in this manner. Onias, who had been high priest, a good and virtuous man, modest in his looks, gentle in his manners, and graceful in speech, and who from a child was exercised in virtues holding up his hands, prayed for all the people of the Jews: After this there appeared also another man, admirable for age, and glory, and environed with great beauty and majesty: Then Onias answering, said: This is a lover of his brethren, and of the people of Israel: this is he that prayeth much for the people, and for all the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God. ( 2 Mac 15: 12-15)



And Peter answering, said to Jesus: Rabbi, it is good for us to be here. And let us make three tabernacles, one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. (Mark 9:4)

Why make a booth for Moses and Elias? They are saints in heaven, ministering to the head of the Body of Christ.



And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. (Apoc. 5:8)

The saints in heaven intercede for the faithful on earth with prayers to Christ.



And another angel came and stood before the altar, having a golden censer: and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints, upon the golden altar which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel. (Apoc 8:3-4)

JoeT

Amen Tess. And on that note, because this thread has digressed into... Maybe it is time that one of the moderators step in and close it!

Hey! No no no! I think that the thread is still in line with the main topic, about statues, and pictures representing saints to which catholics pray. I find the conversation very interesting. I would like that the thread remains open. It is as interesting for me to know how catholics think about it too.

If however, the thread were to close, I would like to thanks all of you in here; sndbay, Tess, paraclete, Rick, Clough, Chuck, donn, JoeT, Fred, Athos and Akoue.


And Peter answering, said to Jesus: Rabbi, it is good for us to be here. And let us make three tabernacles, one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. (Mark 9:4)

Why make a booth for Moses and Elias? They are saints in heaven, ministering to the head of the Body of Christ.

Here, Peter saw Moses and Elias, and thought that they were physically there with them. Anyway, if you go on reading, Peter finally did not make the tabernacles.



Bless the Lord, all ye his angels: you that are mighty in strength, and execute his word, hearkening to the voice of his orders. Bless the Lord, all ye his hosts: you ministers of his that do his will. Bless the Lord, all his works: in every place of his dominion, O my soul, bless thou the Lord. (Psalm 103:20-22)

Praise ye the Lord from the heavens: praise ye him in the high places. Praise ye him, all his angels, praise ye him, all his hosts. (Psalm 148)

Here you'll see that it dos not only include these, but also the sun, moon and stars. Does that mean that you are praying to them? My opinion is no. I think that these are meant to express your gratitude, by saying that even the other creations of the Lord have to be thankful to God.


By all prayer and supplication praying at all times in the spirit: and in the same watching with all instance and supplication for all the saints: (Eph 6:18)

Strange, my bible talks about the 'people of God' here instead of the saints. Could someone confirm please?


And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. (Apoc. 5:8)

And another angel came and stood before the altar, having a golden censer: and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints, upon the golden altar which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel. (Apoc 8:3-4)

Here the prayers concerned are of the saints, not to the saints... :confused:

Since this has turned into a Catholics defending their practices or praying to "saints" statues, pictures etc vs no Catholics trying to figure out why and how it is justified. Aall I can say about this is that as far as I am concerned there is no place in the bible where God condones prayer/worship to anyone or anything except to HIM! Anybody that tries to pray to/through someone/something other than God is sadly mistaken. We are not even suppose to pray to Jesus.
To me it is kind of like going to my brother to ask him for something that only my father has the power to grant. Kind of dumb!
Are Catholics wrong when it comes to their idol/statue fetish? No one can know for certain except the Father and we will not be privy to that bit of information until the Rapture and Judgment day!

Strange, my bible talks about the 'people of God' here instead of the saints. Could someone confirm please?


Sure,

REFER:
Eph 6:18-19-20 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

Because of what (And for me) and (all the saints) were up against at that time, SEE REFER:
Acts 9:13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:

Since this has turned into a Catholics defending their practices or praying to "saints" statues, pictures etc vs no Catholics trying to figure out why and how it is justified. Aall I can say about this is that as far as I am concerned there is no place in the bible where God condones prayer/worship to anyone or anything except to HIM! Anybody that tries to pray to/through someone/something other than God is sadly mistaken. We are not even suppose to pray to Jesus.


AND

Most do not understand what is meant by: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit

Off Thread (but true)

Since this has turned into a Catholics defending their practices or praying to "saints" statues, pictures etc.

I'm not defending anything, I'm explaining. There's a world of difference. Specific questions were asked, and specific answers were given. The original proposition asked why Catholics believe a certain way. If a Southern Baptist or a Lutheran answered the question about Catholic faith you’d get a distorted view of the Truth, wouldn't you?

I don't see how we are out of bounds here.

JoeT

Here, Peter saw Moses and Elias, and thought that they were physically there with them. Anyway, if you go on reading, Peter finally did not make the tabernacles. The example wasn't so much to show what was done, but that the Apostles and Christ 'communed' with the saints. Whether the tabernacles (tents) were built wasn't as important as the fact that God sent saints to intercede on His behalf.


Here you'll see that it dos not only include these, but also the sun, moon and stars. Does that mean that you are praying to them? My opinion is no. I think that these are meant to express your gratitude, by saying that even the other creations of the Lord have to be thankful to God.

Good grief, no it doesn't mean the moon and sun prayed. You're absolutely right; it's a metaphor to say that all of God's creation prayed.


Strange, my bible talks about the 'people of God' here instead of the saints. Could someone confirm please?

The King James Version uses 'saints'. The Vulgate uses 'sanctis' (saints): per omnem orationem et obsecrationem orantes omni tempore in spiritu: et in ipso vigilantes in omni instantia et obsecratione pro omnibus sanctis:

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints,
King James Bible
Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
American King James Version
Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
American Standard Version
With all prayer and supplication praying at all seasons in the Spirit, and watching thereunto in all perseverance and supplication for all the saints,
Douay-Rheims Bible
By all prayer and supplication praying at all times in the spirit; and in the same watching with all instance and supplication for all the saints:
Darby Bible Translation
Praying at all seasons, with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching unto this very thing with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints;
English Revised Version
With all prayer and supplication praying at all seasons in the Spirit, and watching thereunto in all perseverance and supplication for all the saints,
Webster's Bible Translation
Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching for this purpose with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
World English Bible
With all prayer and requests, praying at all times in the Spirit, and being watchful to this end in all perseverance and requests for all the saints:
Young's Literal Translation
Through all prayer and supplication praying at all times in the Spirit, and in regard to this same, watching in all perseverance and supplication for all the saints –

Source: Ephesians 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; (http://scripturetext.com/ephesians/6-18.htm)

The Greek lexicon (same link) uses the Greek word 'hagios': hag'-ee-os: sacred (physically, pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially, consecrated) -- (most) holy (one, thing), saint. I can't explain why your bible reads differently.

I think most of the translations agree – we're talking about 'saints'.


Here the prayers concerned are of the saints, not to the saints... :confused: The point here was that the saints were presenting God with prayers. Whose prayers were they? They were already in heaven and didn't need to petition God. It's more than reasonable to understand that the petitions presented were those of the Church Militant (from people on earth).

Catholics hold that our faith in Christ is nourished in the Church. The Church teaches from both the Holy Scriptures and Apostolic Tradition, those things taught by the Apostles. Furthermore Catholics hold that Holy Scripture is a special case of Apostolic Tradition. Accordingly, Catholics hold that both Scripture and Tradition must be in harmony. The doctrine of the Church teaches praying to the saints (capital 'T' is usual to distinguish between those customs formed in various regions or Catholic rites) I've only cited a few cases on this thread – it's usually not appreciated by those who self-interpret the bible and hold that authority as the only authority in such matters.

In this case a council was held in the mid 1500's that has become known as the Council of Trent. This Council was an affirmation of earlier Councils dating back to Christ. It clearly states that from antiquities, that the saints are to be honored or venerated.


ON THE INVOCATION, VENERATION, AND RELICS, OF SAlNTS, AND ON SACRED IMAGES.

The holy Synod enjoins on all bishops, and others who sustain the office and charge of teaching, that, agreeably to the usage of the Catholic and Apostolic Church, received from the primitive times of the Christian religion, and agreeably to the consent of the holy Fathers, and to the decrees of sacred Councils, they especially instruct the faithful diligently concerning the intercession and invocation of saints; the honour (paid) to relics; and the legitimate use of images: teaching them, that the saints, who reign together with Christ, offer up their own prayers to God for men; that it is good and useful suppliantly to invoke them, and to have recourse to their prayers, aid, (and) help for obtaining benefits from God, through His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, who is our alone Redeemer and Saviour; but that they think impiously, who deny that the saints, who enjoy eternal happiness in heaven, are to be invocated; or who assert either that they do not pray for men; or, that the invocation of them to pray for each of us even in particular, is idolatry; or, that it is repugnant to the word of God; and is opposed to the honour of the one mediator of God and men, Christ Jesus; or, that it is foolish to supplicate, vocally, or mentally, those who reign in heaven. Also, that the holy bodies of holy martyrs, and of others now living with Christ,-which bodies were the living members of Christ, and the temple of the Holy Ghost, and which are by Him to be raised unto eternal life, and to be glorified,--are to be venerated by the faithful; through which (bodies) many benefits are bestowed by God on men; so that they who affirm that veneration and honour are not due to the relics of saints; or, that these, and other sacred monuments, are uselessly honoured by the faithful; and that the places dedicated to the memories of the saints are in vain visited with the view of obtaining their aid; are wholly to be condemned, as the

Church has already long since condemned, and now also condemns them. Moreover, that the images of Christ, of the Virgin Mother of God, and of the other saints, are to be had and retained particularly in temples, and that due honour and veneration are to be given them; not that any divinity, or virtue, is believed to be in them, on account of which they are to be worshipped; or that anything is to be asked of them; or, that trust is to be reposed in images, as was of old done by the Gentiles who placed their hope in idols; but because the honour which is shown them is referred to the prototypes which those images represent; in such wise that by the images which we kiss, and before which we uncover the head, and prostrate ourselves, we adore Christ; and we venerate the saints, whose similitude they bear: as, by the decrees of Councils, and especially of the second Synod of Nicaea, has been defined against the opponents of images. The Council of Trent The Twenty-Fifth Session (http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct25.html)


JoeT

sndbay,
What's the problem?
I do read and believe what Jesus said. It has nothing to do with statues ot icons of any sort.
If it did you would be at fault with carrying pictures in your purse or wallet or even having a photo album.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

1 Peter 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

All faith and righteousness through Christ Jesus

All grace and mercy through Christ Jesus

All light and renewing of the Holy Ghost shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour

All hope of salvation and eternal life through Jesus Christ

All prayer and supplication in the spirit/ stand fast in one spirit

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1 Corinthains 5:3-4-5 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

All prayer and supplication, in the Spirit has been gifted the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. (Romans 8:15)

~In the spirit of Lord Jesus Christ Amen

Praising or praying in front of a painting, statue, animals, other persons, or any other objects. That is all idol worship. There are no "ifs", "ands", or "buts" about it.

"Do those who disbelieve think that they can get away with setting up My servants as gods beside Me? We have prepared for the disbelievers Hell as an eternal abode." 18:102

"It has been revealed to you, and to those before you that if you ever commit idol worship, all your works will be nullified, and you will be with the losers." 39:65

"You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above..." Exodus 20:3-6

You made me remember of that verse of Exodus 20:3-6. That may very well answer the question of acura


sndbay,
What's the problem?
I do read and believe what Jesus said. It has nothing to do with statues ot icons of any sort.
If it did you would be at fault with carrying pictures in your purse or wallet or even having a photo album.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Golden_Girl,
YES there are if, ands and buts about it.
Many people kneel before an alter when the pray to God, I do.
If I should happen to kneel before a statue of Jesus when I pray to Him there is no difference.
If I am before a statue of a Saint such as Mary, the mother of God, and ask her to pray for me to her son there is no difference.
If you look at a picture of your grandfather and it brings back memories of him and you think of him there is little difference.
Please do NOT accuse me or other Catholics, or of other denominations who pay before statues of idolatry.
It is not idolatry unless someone is praying TO a statue.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Oh, acura, my most sincere apologies if you feel accused. I don't want you to feel like that. My first question was about why catholics prayed to statues, which I considered as idolatry. Please, do not feel accused. I just want to know more, of how other people around the world feel about it. I know nobody here can change your mind about something, be open minded, and let us continue the discussion peacefully.

Oh how wrong? In being 'mistaken,' such as you say, Catholics finds themselves in the company of the saints and doctors of the Church. This was true since the ascension till today, and through all the tomorrows.

St. Jerome wrote a rebuke to Vigilantius asking who had started to spread heretical views. In part of the rebuke we see the following discussion of praying to the saints:


If the Apostles and Martyrs, while still in the body, can pray for others, at a time when they must still be anxious for themselves, how much more after their crowns, victories, and triumphs are won! One man, Moses, obtains from God pardon for six hundred thousand men in arms; and Stephen, the imitator of the Lord, and the first martyr in Christ, begs forgiveness for his persecutors; and shall their power be less after having begun to be with Christ? The Apostle Paul declares that two hundred three score and sixteen souls, sailing with him, were freely given him; and, after he is dissolved and has begun to be with Christ, shall he close his lips, and not be able to utter a word in behalf of those who throughout the whole world believed at his preaching of the Gospel? And shall the living dog Vigilantius be better than that dead lion? ("Contra Vigilant.", n. 6, in P.L., XXIII, 344). CHURCH FATHERS: Against Vigilantius (Jerome) (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3010.htm)

Saint Augustine of Hippo also discuses praying to the saints:


'There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for the dead who are remembered. For it is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended." Sermon 159, 1

St. Augustine:


" This it was that the blessed martyrs did in their burning love; and if we celebrate their memories in no mere empty form, and, in the banquet whereat they themselves were filled to the full, approach the table of the Lord, we must, as they did, be also ourselves making similar preparations. For on these very grounds we do not commemorate them at that table in the same way, as we do others who now rest in peace, as that we should also pray for them, but rather that they should do so for us, that we may cleave to their footsteps; because they have actually attained that fullness of love, than which, our Lord has told us, there cannot be a greater.." St. Augustine, Tractate 84 (John 15:13) CHURCH FATHERS: Tractates on the Gospel of John (Augustine) (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701084.htm)

St. Augustine again:


" Faustus' love of evil-speaking has made him forget his own creed; or perhaps he spoke in his sleep about ghosts, and did not wake up even when he saw his words in writing. It is true that Christians pay religious honor to the memory of the martyrs, both to excite us to imitate them and to obtain a share in their merits, and the assistance of their prayers. (Against Faustus 20, 21) CHURCH FATHERS: Contra Faustum, Book XX (Augustine) (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/140620.htm)

St. Augustine again:


" For the souls of the pious dead are not separated from the Church, which even now is the kingdom of Christ; otherwise there would be no remembrance made of them at the altar of God in the partaking of the body of Christ, nor would it do any good in danger to run to His baptism, that we might not pass from this life without it; nor to reconciliation, if by penitence or a bad conscience any one may be severed from His body. For why are these things practised, if not because the faithful, even though dead, are His members? Therefore, while these thousand years run on, their souls reign with Him, though not as yet in conjunction with their bodies. And therefore in another part of this same book we read, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from henceforth and now, says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; for their works do follow them. Revelation 14:13 The Church, then, begins its reign with Christ now in the living and in the dead. For, as the apostle says, Christ died that He might be Lord both of the living and of the dead. Romans 14:9 But he mentioned the souls of the martyrs only, because they who have contended even to death for the truth, themselves principally reign after death; but, taking the part for the whole, we understand the words of all others who belong to the Church, which is the kingdom of Christ. (The City of God 20, 9) CHURCH FATHERS: City of God, Book XX (St. Augustine) (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/120120.htm)

It wasn't until a certain monk, of the schismatic type, do we find any objection to 'praying to the saints'.


JoeT

Closed, those that will not understand or even try to understand that Catholics don't pray "to" statues merely don't want to accept the truth, They have been brain washed by their own denomiations too much.

Catholics have tried to explain to you these are only icons or symbols to help them focus or remind them.

But then when a person is taught one thing by their church they often don't want to hear the truth, since that may make them perhaps question other things.

I will end this in, Catholics do not pray to statues or icons