French pool bars Muslim woman for 'burquini' suit

By MARIA DANILOVA, Associated Press Writer Maria Danilova, Associated Press Writer

PARIS – A Muslim woman garbed in a head-to-toe swimsuit — dubbed a "burquini" — may have opened a new chapter in France's tussle between religious practices and its stern secular code.
Officials insisted Wednesday they banned the woman's use of the Islam-friendly suit at a local pool because of France's pool hygiene standards — not out of hostility to overtly Muslim garb.
Under the policy, swimmers are not allowed in pools with baggy clothing, including surfer-style shorts. Only figure-hugging suits are permitted.
Nonetheless the woman, a 35-year-old convert to Islam identified only as Carole, complained of religious discrimination after trying to go swimming in a "burquini," a full-body swimsuit, in the town of Emerainville, southeast of Paris.
She was quoted as telling the daily Le Parisien newspaper that she had bought the burquini after deciding "it would allow me the pleasure of bathing without showing too much of myself, as Islam recommends."
"For me this is nothing but segregation," she said.
The issue of religious attire is a hot topic in France, where head-to-toe burqas or other full-body coverings worn by some Muslim fundamentalists are in official disfavor.
France is home to western Europe's largest Muslim population, estimated at 5 million, and Islam is the nation's second religion after Roman Catholicism.
A 2004 law banning the wearing of Muslim head scarves at public schools sparked fierce debate. That legislation also banned Jewish skullcaps and large Christian crosses in public classrooms.
French lawmakers recently revived the issue of Muslim dress with a proposal that the burqa and other voluminous Muslim attire be banned.
President Nicolas Sarkozy, a conservative, backs the move, saying such garb makes women prisoners.
The "burquini" covers the arms to the wrists and the legs to the ankle and has a hood to cover neck and hair.
An official in charge of swimming pools for the Emerainville region, Daniel Guillaume, said the refusal to allow the local woman to swim in her "burquini" had nothing to do with religion and everything to do with public health standards.
"These clothes are used in public, so they can contain molecules, viruses, et cetera, which will go in the water and could be transmitted to other bathers," Guillaume said in a telephone interview.
"We reminded this woman that one should not bathe all dressed, just as we would tell someone who is a nudist not to bathe all naked," he said.
Guillaume said France's public health standards require all pool-goers to don swimsuits for women and tight, swimming briefs for men — and caps to cover their hair. Bathers also must shower before entering the water.
Guillaume said Carole had tried to file a complaint at a local police station, but her request was turned down as groundless.

Carole told the daily Le Parisien she would protest with the help of anti-discrimination groups.
Emerainville Mayor Alan Kelyor said he could not understand why the woman would want to swim in head-to-toe clothes.
"We are going back in civilization," he said by telephone. Women have fought for decades for equal rights with men, he said. "Now we are putting them back in burqas and veils."
The suits have a clear market.
Women "jump on the occasion so they can swim with their families. Otherwise, they end up staying on the beach and watching," said Leila Mouhoubia, who runs an online site from France that specializes in the sale of Islamic swimsuits. Sales, she said, are strong.
"I think it's forbidden (in France) because it presents an image of the Muslim woman (and) they have prejudices against Muslims," she said by telephone. "They want women to be undressed."
Mouloud Aounit, head of the anti-racism group known as MRAP, said the decision to ban Carole from the pool appeared fair, since pool authorities were observing regulations. But Aounit lamented that the incident was likely to fuel religious tensions.
"The rules must be the same for everybody, regardless of the color of their skin or their religion," Aounit said. "The concern I have is that this case will again lead to stigmatization of the Muslim population in France."
The all-body suits, worn regularly by some women in Muslim countries, are growing popular in the West. They can be seen on female Muslim lifeguards on Australian beaches, in the United States and various European countries, from the Netherlands to Sweden — which OKed them after two women won discrimination cases last year.
__________
Associated Press Writers Rod McGuirk in Sydney, Australia, Melissa Eddy in Berlin, Germany, Malin Rising in Stockholm, Sweden, Ian MacDougall in Oslo, Norway, and Toby Sterlin in Amsterdam, the Netherlands contributed to this report. (This version CORRECTS headlines to "French pool" sted "Paris pool.")

Copyright © 2009 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.

French pool bars Muslim woman for 'burquini' suit - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090812/ap_on_re_eu/eu_france_burquini_banned)

I am no particular friend of the Muslim community. But to me, this smacks of religious descrimination.

I have known cases where Muslims have manufactured cases of religious descrimination in order to push a political agenda. But somehow this doesn't have that sort of feel to me. It feels like a targeted policy meant to exclude certain people. And it's not like the French don't have a long history of religious descrimination, but using other excuses to pull it off. (The Dreyfus Affair comes to mind, but that is just one case of many.)

Can anyone explain why baggy clothing might be considered a hygene issue where tight clothing wouldn't? And if not, can anyone explain why the pool would have such a policy in place OTHER than to exclude certain people? Are there some facts that the article does not make me aware of?

I hate to say it, but I agree with the Muslims on this one based on my reading of THIS ARTICLE.

Comments please?

Elliot

ET, I think I am going to have to agree with you on this one. If anything they should allow baggy clothes. Have you ever been to disney world and all the old fat french guys are wearing banana hammocks. They don't seem to hygienic to me. Also I attached a picture of a burquini.

Guillaum sounds as if he could make diamonds if he ate coal.

Do they have written, published studies to support the pool rules? Because, if more chlorine must be added to the water to accommodate the swimwear then it is a problem. If no more germs are present in the burquini than in a swimsuit with exposed skin then it does constitute discrimination.

The discrimination, if that is what we're dealing with, is not only religious but also sexist in my mind. Germs, then are not the problem, expectations are.

I would honestly consider wearing something like that to swim in. not because I'm muslim, because I'm not, but because I burn easily and sunscreen always feels greasy.

I see no reason why an outfit like that would contain any more germs than a speedo.

Of course it's discrimination but the French do it so well. The French discriminate against everyone who is not French, must be hundreds of years of living next to the English.

It's part of the not made here syndrome, it wasn't a french idea, so.

I come from a place where people wear what they want to go swimming, some cover is required but after that. This is such a beat up and a non event.

I'm not sure how they can claim it's a hygiene issue... but then we are talking about the French. Do they not chlorinate the pools in France? How many French urinate in the pool?

I don't see any need to ban burqas, that does smack of religious discrimination. On the other hand, at least the French aren't throwing Islamic women under the bus like Obama did in Cairo.

The buruqini is made of swimsuit material,it isn't like the women wear it around town like regular clothes before swimming in it.

This is discrimination pure and simple. And if I can't wear baggy swim suits I'd rather not go into the pool. Me in speedos is not a pretty picture.

Then again... there are some people who don't look good in baggies either

http://fatboy.cc/images/Ted%204.jpg

ROTFLMAO

Was that a picture of Ted Kennedy?

I really see no difference between a burkini (as pictured in Spitvenom's post #2) and a wetsuit that might be used by a surfer.

So, yeah... as I thought. This is descrimination.

Elliot

ROTFLMAO

Was that a picture of Ted Kennedy?

Yup ;the paragon of health who's model of universal health care is lurking in the Senate waiting to be sprung once the House version is dissected .
Dissecting the Kennedy Health Bill - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124536864955329439.html)

It specifically exempts him and hs cronies in Congress from participation ;leaving them the option of continuing their gold plated tax payer subsidized options.

Most people in a speedo is not a pretty picture. I think the burquini looks quite fashionable actually. Much nicer than what some bathing beauties used to wear...

http://www.fashion-era.com/images/Edwds1890-1915/beauties.jpg

Sounds like france has some really weird hygene laws.
But I do not see that as discrimination. It does appear to have some baggy sections (parts of the hood and that overlapping skirty bit).
The Hood could easily be redesigned to fit like a swimcap and the skirty bit shortened a fair bit. It would still cover everything.
Of course, it would be better if french health authorities would stop being so anal and just ditch those ridiculous hygene laws. Here in Australia we have no such regulation against baggy clothes. Board Shorts/ Swim trunks are very popular over here. Speedos are gross, especially with really gross fat old men with their boners visible through the speedos walking around(no offense intended to anyone, I'm sure gross fat middle aged men are wonderful people too) I seriously doubt that baggy swimmers has any effect on my physical health, but speedos can have a serious effect on my mental health. (What has been seen cannot be unseen)

of course it's discrimination but the French do it so well. The French discriminate against everyone who is not French, must be hundreds of years of living next to the English.

It's part of the not made here syndrome, it wasn't a french idea, so.

I come from a place where people wear what they want to go swimming, some cover is required but after that. This is such a beat up and a non event.

I prefer swimming in what god gave me (no this insnt a religious post !). :eek:

Ms tick

I prefer swimming in what god gave me (no this insnt a religious post !). :eek:

ms tick

So do I. G-d gave me enough money to buy a swimsuit. :cool:

So do I. G-d gave me enough money to buy a swimsuit. :cool:

:p I am glad you and I can agree on something so basic. Have a great day ET !

Tick

I just went to a water park this weekend and many muslim people were wearing just there regular head to toe burkas they had worn all day. No one had one of theseburkinis and I wish they did have them because I am sure the cleanliness of the water was affected by the clothes. Many people dressed head to toe had an odor, (because it was exceptionally hot and humid and anyone fully dressed would smell), all to be rinsed off in the pools and water slides. Not to mention the residual dyes and laundry detergent.

ROTFLMAO Was that a picture of Ted Kennedy?Hello El:

That wasn't YOU making fun of the fat guy, was it?? Nahhh. Even you aren't that brave.

excon

Hello El:

That wasn't YOU making fun of the fat guy, was it??? Nahhh. Even you aren't that brave.

excon

Yeah, it was.

What... should I be afraid that the CIA's going to send a copy of this to Ted Kennedy and he's going to send his goon squad after me?

Anyone who lets a picture like that into the public venue DESERVES to be laughed at.

There are reasons that I don't have any pictures of myself in swim trunks.

Elliot

There are reasons that I don't have any pictures of myself in swim trunks.

Elliot

I guess you don't have any pics of yourself in speedos, then !

Tick

Im sure you all look sexy in speedos.

Don't wear speedos, never have.

Just to bring this back on topic somewhat.

France's tussle between religious practices and its stern secular code.

A 2004 law banning the wearing of Muslim head scarves at public schools sparked fierce debate. That legislation also banned Jewish skullcaps and large Christian crosses in public classrooms.
This law also banned the wearing of ANY religious symbols in any public place, not just Muslim, but as ever this particular minority appears to be the most vocal.

This is not Religious discrimination, but adherence to their laws.

Now if you want to adopt a new country than you should abide by their statute laws.

Australia has the right attitude. Their PM was quoted as saying pretty much the same.
After all there's certain things you cannot hide, like race, but religion is a personal choice that should not be pushed on others, this includes Christianity..

I honestly believe that France has the right idea about this and is attempting to integrate all aspects of it's society with no overt boundaries.

You think that it's OK for a government to restrict openly displaying religious symbols as if they are something to hide ? I think only a state promoting its own brand of secular worship would resort to such rights repression.

You think that it's ok for a government to restrict openly displaying religious symbols as if they are something to hide ? I think only a state promoting its own brand of secular worship would resort to such rights repression.

You are right Tom we don't restrict them here although I personally think their unwillingness to assimulate is an affront and an insult, I can give them a little slack but it is weird to see women dressed that way in our streets and it is the women not the men who make themselves obvious so it is discrimination against women and we should not allow it to be practised. We do not see the men wearing their traditional dress

I guess you dont have any pics of yourself in speedos, then !

tick

Hey, my family are members and donors of Heritage for the Blind. I have no intention of CAUSING blindness in others.

Now if you want to adopt a new country than you should abide by their statute laws.


Curly,

Judaism has a concept that states "Dinah d'malchuta dinah", which means "The Law of the Land is the Law." Basically, that means that we have to follow the laws of the lands in which we live.

There's a caveat to this Jewish Law, though.

If the law of the land is discriminatory toward Jews (ei: the Inquisitions, forced conversions, or laws that REQUIRE us to break Jewish Law in order to be compliant) we are not required to follow that law of the land. The best choice, of course, would be to leave and go elsewhere, where we are permitted to practice our religion in peace. But there have been times in history when travel to a new location was either restricted or was just not feasible. In those cases, we did what we could to follow Jewish Law to the best of our ability, even in secret.

(The Morano Jews aka "the Conversos" of Spain in the 1490s were a perfect example... Jews who outwardly followed the laws of the land, but who practiced their "illegal" religion in secret and in violation of the law of the land.)

So here's the question: do these laws in France which prevent Muslims from wearing burkinis and traditional headress and Jews from wearing yarmulkas in public schools constitute discriminatory acts against Muslims and Jews preventing them from practicing their religions?

Because if they are, then the concept of "Dinah d'malchutah dinah" goes right out the window. The idea that we need to follow the local laws TO THE EXCLUSION of following our religion changes the equation, in my opinion.

The best choice, as I have said before, is for people to move elsewhere, so that they can practice their religions in peace. But if that isn't possible, for whatever reasons... well then, one must do what one must do even in a hostile land.

Elliot

So here's the question: do these laws in France which prevent Muslims from wearing burkinis and traditional headress and Jews from wearing yarmulkas in public schools constitute discriminatory acts against Muslims and Jews preventing them from practicing their religions?

I think you are picking things up incorrectly here.
It's NOT aimed at Jews or Muslims or any one Religion, but ALL of them.
France is a proudly secular state and wishes to remain so in public at least. This does not impinge on the rights to practice religion at all, just the public display of such.

What is practised in the privacy of your own home is entirely your choice.

I'll put a slight spin on this for you.
Would you find it acceptable if your own county started enforcing strict Shira law, as there was a large Muslim community?

Please don't get me wrong.
I am NOT a racist, but I don't understand why some groups "demand" special rights to live in their ADOPTED countries.
After all the same latitude would NOT be shown to us if it where the obverse..

Interestingly enough ;the French in fact cave in on issues of Sharia law in the "banlieus" Muslim ghettos (French police rarely enter these enclaves ,and when they do their cars are torched. ) .

And of course ;here and in France ,Sharia financing laws are becoming encorporated into our laws.

Face the facts ;soon France and much of Europe will be dominant Muslim and their desperate quest to remain secular excluding all external displays of religion will go .

I think you are picking things up incorrectly here.
It's NOT aimed at Jews or Muslims or any one Religion, but ALL of them.
France is a proudly secular state and wishes to remain so in public at least. This does not impinge on the rights to practice religion at all, just the public display of such.

What is practised in the privacy of your own home is entirely your choice.

I'll put a slight spin on this for you.
Would you find it acceptable if your own county started enforcing strict Shira law, as there was a large Muslim community ??

Please don't get me wrong.
I am NOT a racist, but I don't understand why some groups "demand" special rights to live in their ADOPTED countries.
After all the same latitude would NOT be shown to us if it where the obverse..

So, let me get this straight... if I want to have a public display of lighting a Menorah in Central Park (as the Chabad hassidic group does every year) during Hannukah, you would have a problem with that public display?

If I walked in to a court house somewhere and someone tried to force me to take off my yarmulka, you'd be okay with that because I am making a "public display" of my religion?

I'm curious, Ben... when did the freedom of religion guaranteed by the 1st Amendment become only a right to practice in private? When you say that France is interested not in preventing the practice of religion, just the PUBLIC practice of religion, you are essentially saying that France is prohibbiting public religious practice.

Is the right to free speech only allowed to be practiced in private as well? Or does the US Constitution SPECIFICALLY give us the right to practice free speech in public, along with freedom of assembly, and freedom of the press?

When did the right to freedom of religion, including religious practices that you disagree with, suddenly become a right that can only be practiced in privacy? Isn't the whole point of the 1st Amendment that it specifically allows for religious practice IN PUBLIC?

Ditto for the Muslims and their mode of dress. Or the Hassidic community and their mode of dress.

Now... I understand that we're not talking about the USA. This is taking place in France. Our laws don't apply there. But you made comments about what you believe SHOULD be done here. And I disagree with that STRONGLY.

The "freedom" to hide my religion away in my home or to keep it private is no freedom at all.

Elliot

You are right Tom we don't restrict them here although I personally think their unwillingness to assimulate is an affront and an insult, I can give them a little slack but it is weird to see women dressed that way in our streets and it is the women not the men who make themselves obvious so it is discrimination against women and we should not allow it to be practised. We do not see the men wearing their traditional dress

I think the way muslim women dress goes way beyond a preference for them. There are certain laws in their religion that demand that they (women) dress the way they do. Men, however, can expose more flesh when out in public.

paraclete, you may think it is weird and an insult but we do have to respect their beliefs to a certain extent, as we do here in Canada, we being multinational on our streets and in our public venues. I, for one, don't find it insulting and also find that it is being relaxed somewhat in their young people as they assimilate into our society.

If we are all going to live together in harmony, then we must all realize that a little give and take must be observed in all things, IMO.

Gosh, in our enlightened age some of us can't even tolerate seeing a new mother nursing a baby in public even when she observes all the proper techniques not to be too obvious. Some people find that an insult and an affront.

Tick

Elliot, I'm sorry, but I think we misunderstand each other.

The point I was trying to make is the fact that certain minorities demand special treatment simply because they are different. Do other religious groups make these demands or are as vocal as the Muslims?
What France is attempting to do is level the playing field as it where.
I certainly agree with your Jewish quote of "Dinah d'malchuta dinah".

Hi Ben,

I don't see how women wearing burkinis to go swimming equates to them making demands of any sort.

Yes, Muslims do have a habbit of doing that sort of thing, and when they do, I'm the first one to criticize it. For that matter, when Mexican illegals do it here, I'm the first one to jump on the bandwagon to criticize it.

But I don't see how you can say wearing a burkini (and not trying to force anyone else to wear one) equates to demanding special treatment.

Elliot

Elliot, I'm sorry, but I think we misunderstand each other.

The point I was trying to make is the fact that certain minorities demand special treatment simply because they are different. Do other religious groups make these demands or are as vocal as the Muslims ??Hello:

I'm not sure the discussion can be brought down to a common denominator...

In fact, I think there are certain minorities HERE in the US that demand special treatment because they're different. They get it too... But, what difference does it make it they're a minority or not? Should the majority demand special treatment because they're different than the minority?? No! Neither group should get special treatment...

Oh, by the way.. The majority who demand special treatment HERE in the US, are the Christians... They want the government to OK THEIR stuff in the public square, but nobody els's. To justify it, they call the US a Christian nation... How obtuse?

excon

Here's an interesting turn in this discussion

Swimmers are told to wear burkinis - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/6034706/Swimmers-are-told-to-wear-burkinis.html)

British pools are holding special Muslim swimming sessions and women are REQUIRED to wear the burkini.

People PEE in swimming pools!! It's a more like a public toilet than a pool! There's nothing hygenic about pools. That's why they have chlorine in them.

people PEE in swiming pools!!! it's a more like a public toilet than a pool! there's nothing hygenic about pools. that's why they have chlorine in them.

So... does that mean you support the rights of Muslims to wear burkinis in the pool or support the French officials in banning it?

So... does that mean you support the rights of Muslims to wear burkinis in the pool or support the French officials in banning it?

Oh! I support the muslims. I was just trying to say that pools are already dirty.. nothing can make them more dirty.

here's an interesting turn in this discussion

Swimmers are told to wear burkinis - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/6034706/Swimmers-are-told-to-wear-burkinis.html)

British pools are holding special Muslim swimming sessions and women are REQUIRED to wear the burkini.

That's the sort of thing that I'm referring to.

Now if this was MALE only swimming there would be uproar!!

That's the sort of thing that I'm referring to.

Now if this was MALE only swimming there would be uproar !!!

Here's my opinion of this:

I have no problem with Muslims wearing Muslim dress to the pool, in the pool or around the pool.

I have a huge problem with the government telling Muslims that they cannot wear their Muslim garb to the pool, in the pool or around the pool.

I have a huge problem with the government telling anyone else that they have to wear Muslim garb to the pool, in the pool or around the pool even if theyr aren't Muslim.

When I go away to kosher hotels, I often see separate swim hours for men and women as well as mixed swim time. There are also dress codes that generally adhere to Jewish Law for entering or leaving the pool area... mostly because the guests at such hotels EXPECT that a kosher hotel will abide by such laws. That's why they go to kosher hotels in the first place. I have no problem with that. The people going to the pool know beforehand what the rules are, the pool is run by the HOTEL which is a private organization. But again, that is within what is appropriate for PRIVATELY OWNED SWIMMING POOLS.

When it comes to city, state or federally-run locations, the government has no right to force a religious dress code (or lack thereof) on anyone. If someone wants to wear a burkini in the pool, the government neither has the right to stop them, NOR the right to force OTHERS to do the same.

So while France has gone too far in one direction, England, it seems, has gone too far in the opposite direction.

Elliot

Curly,



The best choice, as I have said before, is for people to move elsewhere, so that they can practice their religions in peace. But if that isn't possible, for whatever reasons... well then, one must do what one must do even in a hostile land.

Elliot

Elliott I have said it all along it is better that these people remain where they are, where their religion is the law of the land. They show no respect by trying to change the law of the land they migrate to. And if they cannot respect the law of the land then return home. Assimilate or Go this must be the war cry