Baptism of John, “preaching the baptism of penance, unto remission of sins”

Versus

Baptism of Christ, " baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost"

On another thread concerning baptism a few interesting questions came up:

1) Did Jesus’ baptism have the same effect as John's baptism?
2) Would John’s baptism meet the requirements of your Church?
3) Was John’s baptism salvific? Would the recipients of John’s baptism need to be re-baptized?
4) Was John’s baptism related to the Old Testament TaNaKH, a Jewish immersion?
5) What are the effects of the New Testament baptism?
6) As a norm is it possible to enter heaven (the Kingdom of God) without a literal baptism?
7) What are exceptions to the norm?
8) Does baptism make the recipient a member in the body Church?
9) If the baptized individual changes denominations, is the individual re-baptized?
10) Can I have multiple baptisms? If so why? If not why?

One more question, do you see any element connecting the response to these question one to the other.

JoeT

Here is basically everything I believe about baptism.

What Does the Bible Say About Baptism? - AN OUTLINE OF BIBLICAL BAPTISM (http://www.bible-truth.org/baptism.htm)

Here is basically everything I believe about baptism.

What Does the Bible Say About Baptism? - AN OUTLINE OF BIBLICAL BAPTISM (http://www.bible-truth.org/baptism.htm)

How do you explain the contradiction that "Baptism does not save nor necessary for salvation," with Christ's warning to Nicodemus, "I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God?"

JoeT

Thanks for the start of the thread, I seldom start them myself.

Yes I ask this but without going into denominational names ( and please lets not do that) I was required to be baptised about 4 times, I had to be into one church because I was as a infant, the next church did it "in Jesus name" but the next church did not accept baptisms by that church and they had to do it, using the works, Father , Son and Holy Spirit. Then another church required you be dunked three times at the saying of each word.

To each of them if you were not baptised by their formula they did not accept it. That is why I asked it, since about 1/3 or so of the denominations today I doubt would accept Jesus baptism, because it was not in his name or in the name of the trinity and John was not a member of any specific denomination ( some require it to be their denomination only)

It is necessary as a symbol of your faith but baptism itself does not save you.

Thanks for the start of the thread, I seldom start them myself.

yes I ask this but without going into denominational names ( and please lets not do that) I was required to be baptised about 4 times, I had to be into one church because I was as a infant, the next church did it "in Jesus name" but the next church did not accept baptisms by that church and they had to do it, using the works, Father , Son and Holy Spirit. Then another church required you be dunked three times at the saying of each word.

To each of them if you were not baptised by thier formula they did not accept it. That is why I asked it, since about 1/3 or so of the denominations today I doubt would accept Jesus baptism, because it was not in his name or in the name of the trinity and John was not a member of any specific denomination ( some require it to be thier denomination only)

Really, Dunked three times?

Add:But, would you consider each baptism valid, remitting all sins each time?

JoeT

It is necessary as a symbol of your faith but baptism itself does not save you.

You might have missed the point of my question. John 3 Christ tells Nicodemus that he MUST be baptized in order to get into the Kingdom of God. Doesn’t this contradict that’s baptism is a symbol? Christ said YOU MUST.

JoeT

Baptism is a spiritual thing Jesus was referring to like the condition of the repentant heart and his faith. Water baptism is the outward acknowledgment of the inner rebirth. So Jesus telling Nicodemus he has to be born again with the water and the spirit is a spiritual thing.
The actual dunking in the water is the ceremonial part of it.

Water baptism is clearly a FIGURE or TYPE of something which already took place in the heart of the believer the moment he/she was saved (1 Pet. 3:21). Water baptism is the ordinance representing the identification of the Christian with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

You are "crucified" (standing upright in water), you are "buried" (immersed into the water), and you are "resurrected into life" (raised out of the water). Water baptism then, is a picture of spiritual baptism as defined in Rom. 6:3-5 and 1 Corinthians 12:13. It is the outward testimony of the believer's inward faith. A sinner is saved the moment he places his faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Baptism is a visible testimony to that faith.

http://www.biblebelievers.com/DeMichele1.html

But he told the man twice - once figuratively; then flat out. He didn't say "be born upright". How could baptism be a visible testimony - it doesn't leave any marks like circumcision, which was an external testimony and an external grace. Isn't there anything internal in baptism? Does this mean you "faith" yourself into the Kingdom of God?

JoeT

Baptism is an internal repentance and turning away and then you follow it up with physical testimony of water baptism.
Why does there have to be some visible mark? It is a physical testimony to your inward faith.

Christ Himself requires it to enter the Kingdom of God, there are no exceptions indicated in the verse – there is no “less and except” so to speak; there is no “figuratively” spoken clause.

Acts 2:38 clearly indicates that its for the remission of sins as you stated; in Acts 22:16 Be baptized, and wash away thy sins : in Acts 5:25 sqq. Because "Christ loved the Church, and delivered Himself up for it: that he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the washing of water in the word of life: that he might present it to Himself a glorious Church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.“ Not a spot or wrinkle, not actual sin or original sin washed away to be made holy: an infusion of supernatural graces that renders the recipient an adopted son of God. After all, what was Paul writing about in his epistle to the Romans.

JoeT

So Gods hand is too short if somebody accepts God and then dies within days before they are able to get baptised?

Thanks for the start of the thread, I seldom start them myself.

yes I ask this but without going into denominational names ( and please lets not do that) I was required to be baptised about 4 times, I had to be into one church because I was as a infant, the next church did it "in Jesus name" but the next church did not accept baptisms by that church and they had to do it, using the works, Father , Son and Holy Spirit. Then another church required you be dunked three times at the saying of each word.

To each of them if you were not baptised by thier formula they did not accept it. That is why I asked it, since about 1/3 or so of the denominations today I doubt would accept Jesus baptism, because it was not in his name or in the name of the trinity and John was not a member of any specific denomination ( some require it to be thier denomination only)

What has been learned in this for yourself? I ask this because I feel things happen again and again for us to gain our knowledge in what God is pressing as important. You obviously continued to questioned within your heart of faith each baptism, and trusted in man.

We should remember what Christ said about coming to HIM when we thirst (John 4:10)

Because it is also written traditions of man can spoil us (Col 2:8)

In Faith I rest upon Christ, knowing that in Baptism those who bear witness of what is taking place within our spirit, and body. Scripture tells us refer: Bear Withness in Heaven1 John 5: 6-7 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; [not by water only,] but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is Truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Bear Witness on Earth
1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Full Well Knowing
Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

This was shown in the Baptism of Christ (who was watching and who was pleased)
1 John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

I share this with you in hopes of HIS words being the instruction of truth and faith, to follow HIM and deny yourself in following man.

`in Christ

1 Peter 3:20-21 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

What I trust in this written word, is that One Baptism is as important as One Faith and One Lord.

One Lord ( Shepherd and Bishop of our souls)

One Faith (justified by the body and blood of Christ)

One Baptism (New man who put on the body of Christ) begotten again.

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Those who do not have faith that they can not walk in newness of life(righteousness/a circumcised heart/ dead to sin) then they can be those who are double minded and do not rest in Christ and HIS worthyness to set us free from sin.

Christ blood on the cross voided out the curse of sin. No longer are we held to sin but at liberty to chose life with Christ in righteousness. (set Free) Rejoice in the law of Faith..

Should each dividual chose to walk in doubt and in sin, then they remain under the law. Being with the law that can bring them unto Christ when they do decide to circumcise their hearts in ONE Faith.

The fulness of Christ in what scripture refer in strong meat does not come to infants, and in fact the babes of this world will give suck to milk. Christ said to His mother cry for those that give suck, because those who are weak and not of fulness in Christ.

Hebrews 5:11 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

I share this not to put a stumbling stone before anyone but to show that God is the power and dominion. It is trusting in Christ that we can rest, and Faith in Christ that sets us free.

How do you understand “freed from sin” Does this mean after baptism you are freed from original and actual sin; or once baptized there is no more sin; or once baptized sin committed isn't held against you?

JoeT

Col 1:1-2-3 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Did you answer my question? Please explain if you did; I don't understand the relevance to the question.

JoeT

How do you understand “COLOR="darkred"]freed from sin”

Liberty to walk in the spirit, and righteously.Kept by the power of God as it is written. (1 Peter 1:5)



Does this mean after baptism you are freed from original and actual sin;

Christ once and for all, paid the price on the cross to set us Free from the curse of Adam. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity,and in baptism we are begotten again by Christ to be what God had created us to be, in HIS image .. Righteousness...



or once baptized there is no more sin; or once baptized sin committed isn't held against you?

JoeT


1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Did you answer my question? Please explain if you did; I don't understand the relevance to the question.

JoeT

Do you believe the Word of scripture written in post #16?

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

So, are you saying that transgression is not acountable, otherwise what we know as 'once saved always saved'?

JoeT

If you don't believe your transgressions are forgiven then you do not agree with Bible verses that say Jesus took all our sins and God forgives our sins?

Do you believe the Word of scripture written in post #16?

Yes, but I don't see the relevance to the question how you view “freed from sin”. I think this is because there is a fundamental difference in how we view original sin and the efficacies of baptism.

JoeT

If you don't believe your transgressions are forgiven then you do not agree with Bible verses that say Jesus took all our sins and God forgives our sins?

I didn't say sins couldn't be forgiven. I interpreted the remarks to say that once baptized transgressions were no longer held accountable - once saved always saved.

JoeT

You still have to ask for forgiveness and learn from your mistakes and your sins.
Its not an EZ pass of once saved always saved.

The fundamental difference in understanding that no man can enter the Kingdom of God until he has been baptized is found in the 'once saved always saved' reading of 'freed from sin'. Catholics hold that Romans 5 that original sin, “sin entered into this world and by sin death; and so passed upon all men” is how man is dead (man being both body and soul – a dead man is a man dead physically as well as having a soul that is dead – not in communion with God [that is “sin death = spiritual death]). Romans 6 shows how that original sin becomes dead in man through Christ, “old man is crucified with him” (the “old man” being the man with original sin and as such is dead). Lastly, we have Romans 7 which Paul tells us what is left after baptism, (a redemption from the consequences of sin, i.e. death), is concupiscence, “But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.” Concupiscence is a strong desire to sin. Our redemption is in the formation of the conscience overcoming that desire to sin which derives its creation in the graces bestowed in baptism. Sanctifiaction is dervied in the fight against concupisence, if not then there is no free will. So, where is 'once saved always saved'?

JoeT

You just summed it up and there is no once saved always saved in the sense you are speaking of.

You just summed it up and there is no once saved always saved in the sense you are speaking of.

As I recall, you were a proponent of “once saved always saved?”

Regardless, am I right to presume that a physical baptism is a must?

JoeT

No I was not a proponent once saved always saved.

I was a if your name is written in the book of life God isn't erasing it BUT MANY people CLAIM they are saved when possibly they are not. Therefore their once saved doesn't apply.

Like you buy a counterfit ticket for an event.
You go to the event and you find out you were wrong. You NEVER had a legitimate ticket to begin with.

So as I said in the sense you are using once saved always saved NOPE I do not believe in once saved always saved.

What I trust in all that is written is the worthyness of Christ, and the truth of what HE brought to us.

The sufficiency of Christ's body and blood is far more then what most men can comprehend, because of the enormous, the vast, the huge, the immense greatness that God is.
As written, God thundereth marvellously with his voice; great things doeth he, which we cannot comprehend.

It is also written refer: Eph 3:17-19 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.


Romans 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

In the beginning of creation, we were as written refer: Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

This was what was before Adam, and NOW we are again begotten in Christ to the liberty of choice, to walk in the spirt and not the lust of flesh.

Comprehend the reality of the valued life and death in what our Father has giving in HIS begotten Son to die for us.

We can again be in the likeness of what we once were created to be. "IF" we hold to ONE LORD...ONE FAITH...ONE BAPTISM One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


Is it possible to sin or be beguiled by satan? YES
That is what Paul said was his fear.

What I trust in all that is written [in scripture] is the worthiness of Christ, and the truth of what HE brought to us.
As I trust in the infallible Magisterium of the Church to teach the truths the Apostles taught that are found therein.


The sufficiency of Christ's body and blood is far more then what most men can comprehend, because of the enormous, the vast, the huge, the immense greatness that God is.
As written, God thundereth marvellously with his voice; great things doeth he, which we cannot comprehend.

Believing in the sufficiency of Christ's body and the truth found in Scripture then too we can believe in Christ's words, “except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me: and I in him. ” (John 6: 54 sqq) What's of concern here isn't God's frightful omnipotence, His omnipresence, the vastness, the bigness, His perfect justice, but rather our impotence, our absence of faith, our lecherousness, covetousness, our cupidity, that hinders his real presence found in scripture.


It is also written refer: Eph 3:17-19 That Christ mIn the promise also of God he staggered not by distrust: but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God:ay dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.


In the promise also of God he staggered not by distrust: but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God: Romans 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
But also for us, to whom it shall be reputed, if we believe in him that raised up Jesus Christ, our Lord, from the dead, (Romans 6:24)

In the promise also of God he staggered not by distrust: but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God: In the beginning of creation, we were as written refer: Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. [/QUOTE]
And that promise can't be realized without being “born again of water and the Holy Ghost”.



We can again be in the likeness of what we once were created to be. "IF" we hold to ONE LORD...ONE FAITH...ONE BAPTISM One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. ...That is what Paul said was his fear
Pope John Paul II said "fear not;"all is accomplished through the body and blood of Christ offered daily.


JoeT

Like you buy a counterfit ticket for an event.
You go to the event and you find out you were wrong. You NEVER had a legitimate ticket to begin with.

I like that analogy, at least on some levels I can agree with you.

JoeT

Joe, Have you intended damage to my posting by the quote done in #30 shown differently then what was posted in #29 ?


Post #29

We can again be in the likeness of what we once were created to be. "IF" we hold to ONE LORD...ONE FAITH...ONE BAPTISM One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


Is it possible to sin or be beguiled by satan? YES
That is what Paul said was his fear.

Joe, Have you intended damage to my posting by the quote done in #30 shown differently then what was posted in #29 ?


Post #29

Not exactly, it's called using an ellipsis ( … ). Ellipses are used (among other things) to indicate omitted words in a quotation It's a common practice to remove lesser important comments to avoid excessively long citations. I didn't wish to address the intervening comments so I didn't include them. Plus there was a link to your comment. It would be obvious to any casual reader that there was no intent to misquote you. BUT, be that as it may, I apologize if you took it that way.

JoeT

Fr_Chuck, et al:

I was poking around on the internet and ran into, The Great Catechism (Part III, The Sacraments) by St. Gregory of Nyssa; circa 380 A.D. I thought that when you came up for a breath you might appreciate that a trine baptism may have been widely used in various regions. “But the descent into the water, and the trine immersion of the person in it, involves another mystery. For since the method of our salvation was made effectual not so much by His precepts in the way of teaching as by the deeds of Him Who has realized an actual fellowship with man, and has effected life as a living fact, so that by means of the flesh which He has assumed, and at the same time deified , everything kindred and related may be saved along with it, it was necessary that some means should be devised by which there might be, in the baptismal process, a kind of affinity and likeness between him who follows and Him Who leads the way. Needful, therefore, is it to see what features are to be observed in the Author of our life, in order that the imitation on the part of those that follow may be regulated, as the Apostle says, after the pattern of the Captain of our salvation.”

After a little more poking around I found that a trine immersion may have been practiced by the Apostles. Tertullian (De Corona 3), St. Basil (On the Holy Spirit 27), St. Jerome (Against the Luciferians 8), all write of similar practices. However, while adding much the same St. Thomas Aquinas in his The Summa Theologica reminds us that one immersion has been ordained by the Church.

“Whether trine immersion is essential to Baptism?: On the contrary, Gregory wrote to the Bishop Leander: "It cannot be in any way reprehensible to baptize an infant with either a trine or a single immersion: since the Trinity can be represented in the three immersions, and the unity of the Godhead in one immersion."

“I answer that, as stated above washing with water is of itself required for Baptism, being essential to the sacrament: whereas the mode of washing is accidental [essentially inherent] to the sacrament. Consequently, as Gregory in the words above quoted explains, both single and trine immersion are lawful considered in themselves; since one immersion signifies the oneness of Christ's death and of the Godhead; while trine immersion signifies the three days of Christ's burial, and also the Trinity of Persons.”

“But for various reasons, according as the Church has ordained, one mode has been in practice, at one time, the other at another time. For since from the very earliest days of the Church some have had false notions concerning the Trinity, holding that Christ is a mere man, and that He is not called the "Son of God" or "God" except by reason of His merit, which was chiefly in His death; for this reason they did not baptize in the name of the Trinity, but in memory of Christ's death, and with one immersion. And this was condemned in the early Church. Wherefore in the Apostolic Canons (xlix) we read: "If any priest or bishop confer baptism not with the trine immersion in the one administration, but with one immersion, which baptism is said to be conferred by some in the death of the Lord, let him be deposed": for our Lord did not say, "Baptize ye in My death," but "In the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

"Later on, however, there arose the error of certain schismatics and heretics who rebaptized: as Augustine (Super. Joan., cf. De Haeres. lxix) relates of the Donatists. Wherefore, in detestation of their error, only one immersion was ordered to be made, by the (fourth) council of Toledo, in the acts of which we read: "In order to avoid the scandal of schism or the practice of heretical teaching let us hold to the single baptismal immersion."

From St. Thomas's quote we can safely extrapolate that two immersions would not be permitted. I don't have any direct knowledge, but would imagine the Church today accepts trine baptism, although it doesn't appear to be common. You certainly don't hear much of it around here - and I live in the land of the Baptist. So, the next time I speak out with a provincial ignorance it would be appreciated if you would help remove the foot from my mouth.

JoeT

Acts 1:4&5 Qnce when He was eating with them, He told them not to leave Jerusalem.
He said, "Wait here to receive the promise from the Father which I told you about. John baptized people with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit".
Notice in this passage Jesus spoke of two baptism, one already experienced and the
Other future; thus carefully making it clear that the baptism with the Holy Ghost is not baptism with water but a totally different experience.
Acts 1:8 He began His instructions by reminding them that even before His crucifixion
He had told them that they were to receive the promise of the father which is the
Baptism with the Holy Spirit. He had promised that the Holy Spirit would come to fill the
Void created by His being no longer with them in the flesh, and that in the Spirt He
Would be even closer to them after His earthly departure. In a real and wonderful
Way this than if Jesus remained physically with them and they continued to see, hear,
Touch or converse with Him in the flesh. The reason for this was that they would receive
Power after the Holy Spirit had come upon them.

Here is a part of the answer.
Blessing,

Maggie 3

Joe,
In a Catholic Church in northwestern Montana I and others witness a baptism of a child who was dunked three times with the priest saying "In the name of the Father (dunk), The son (dunk) and the Holy Spirit (dunk).
I did not question it. Rather I thought it was a neat way to do it.
Also I do firmly believe that baptism by itself does not save but it is necessary if one it to be saved with an also necessary working faith and the grace of God.
I was baptized in a Lutheran ceremony. 35 years later when I became a Catholic I was told that the Lutheran baptism was licit and therefore a second baptism was not necessary.
However, I could have been, but the priest would then say during the ceremony. "Fred, if you are not properly baptized, I baptize you in the name of the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit."
I opted not to have a second baptism for it was not necessary.
I do find it very interesting the confusion concerning baptism in various denominations.
In the 30,000 + denominations out there I wonder how many different baptisms that there are when I and many others believe that there is only one way (in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) that is valid.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Maggie: I agree, one of the primary purposes of the New Testament baptism is for a spiritual connection with the Holy Spirit. A joining, as it were, in spirit with God.

Fred: I had never heard of 3 immersions at a baptism (that's why I find them so unique), but of course all of the baptisms I've ever attended (most of which were for infants) were Catholic and were poured over a fount. I have built Southern Baptist Churches in the past. Large pools with steps were installed behind the podium for an immersion to take place – but I never witnessed one. I understood these baptisms were single immersions.


JoeT

Three immersions aren't in the Bible.
People do that on their own for their own reasons/purposes

As I trust in the infallible Magisterium of the Church to teach the truths the Apostles taught that are found therein.


Believing in the sufficiency of Christ's body and the truth found in Scripture then too we can believe in Christ's words, “except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me: and I in him. ” (John 6: 54 sqq) What's of concern here isn't God's frightful omnipotence, His omnipresence, the vastness, the bigness, His perfect justice, but rather our impotence, our absence of faith, our lecherousness, covetousness, our cupidity, that hinders his real presence found in scripture.

JoeT

His real presence found within the book John was told to eat in Revelation so that he would prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings according to the Word that was made Flesh to walk on earth.


Different thread...but I will reply
The Catholic church gives the glory to a different rock, so is their spiritual drink and meat that of their rock?

1 Cr 10:1-2-3-4 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Three immersions aren't in the Bible.
People do that on their own for their own reasons/purposes

Do you think they may not believe in three being ONE? I find it strange, rather then by the doctrine of Christ.

Notice in this passage Jesus spoke of two baptism, one already experienced and the
other future; thus carefully making it clear that the baptism with the Holy Ghost is not baptism with water but a totally different experience.
Maggie 3

Maggie, I trust this also shows how God holds the power to bring forward what was, and is HIS will being done.

Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

I think if the church doesn't accept your water immersion baptism it is because it is THEIR doctrine they are emphasizing rather than your heart being right with God

I think if the church doesn't accept your water immersion baptism it is because it is THEIR doctrine they are emphasizing rather than your heart being right with God

Why? What do you base this on.

Based on that God isn't about Churches doctrines. Do you see anywhere in the Bible where it says you need to get rebaptized if you go to join another church?

Based on that God isn't about Churches doctrines. Do you see anywhere in the Bible where it says you need to get rebaptized if you go to join another church?

I wasn't referring to 'rebaptism,' I would argue against it.

Do you think they may not believe in three being ONE? I find it strange, rather then by the doctrine of Christ.

I thought you once said baptism wasn’t necessary to enter the Kingdom of Heaven? If I’m correct then why do you refer to ‘doctrine of Christ?’ Do you see the contradition? If there is no need for baptism, then that is the doctrine of Christ.

JoeT

What else is there?

I don't think you answered my other question. Say somebody comes to God and repents and all then he is going to get baptised next week but he is in a fatal accident what do you think happens to him? Is God's arm so short he can not save?

I am not saying baptism is not important but I believe that God knows your heart and intent

#7 in the OP.

Obviously, the thief who repented (on the cross) could not be baptised, but was promised Paradise. There must be oppportunity.

Unless I have been mis informed, it was required for a Rabbi to be baptised by a Priest (High Priest?) before he began his ministry. This would explain the baptism of John as it relates to Jesus. John's baptism was unto repentance, while NT baptism signifies a completed work in the life of the believer.

The Baptism of the Holy Ghost is a subsequent experience to salvation.

In the new birth, the Life of Christ enters the believer, and if nurtured by the believer will eventually choke out the old (sinful) life.

The beilievr is expected to refrain from sin. However, John writes these words to all believers:

I Jn 2:1
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
(KJV) (emphasis mine)

If baptism isn't necessary then how do we explain away what Christ said to Nicodemus, "unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." I don't see much wiggle room.

JoeT

I told you being born again of the water and the spirit is a spiritual thing Jesus was referring to and the actual baptism is ceremonial to testify to your inner rebirth.

You get baptised because you desire to follow Jesus and it is an outward sign.

Its not that baptism isn't necessary to follow but that baptism itself does not save you.

I think that three immersions taking place during baptism is a symbol ot the three person of the trinity.
I only witness it one time and have been to many baptisms during my 76 years here.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

JoeT777
Baptism is a spiril experience and its effect is power in our life. The keynote of baptism
With the Holy Spirit was to be power. This was a different kind of power than they had
Received when they first believed on Him. "As many as received Him, to them gave
He power to become the sons of God" ( John 1;12) This is power received through
Conversion. It is the power of legal right or authoriry to become something:
In this case, a son or daughter of God. In Acts 1;8 Jesus spoke of a different power.
In the Greek, this word used by Jesus is "dunamis" meaning dynamite." Ye shell receive
power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and shall be witnesses unto me both
in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria and unto the uttermost parts of the
earth." This particular kind of power-the power of enablement-is present in some degree in both conversion and sanctification. Its fullness, however, is received after the baptism
With the Holy Ghost has become an integral part of one's life and one continues to walk in the Spirit. It is a power that enables one to become like Jesus in a dimension that is
Not possible before receiving the Holy Gost. First, it is an explosive power to witness
Not of something but of a person, the Lord Jesus Jesus Christ said, "Ye shall be
witnesses of ME". Second, it is a power to be a witnesses wherever one is.
He doesn't have to "go" somewhere in order to witness-he is a witness anywhere he is.
The power of enablement is what the disciples wanted. Christ's physical presence
With them had generated this kind of power. At times they had healed the sick, cast
Out devils, won men to their Lord and done His great works. But this power was a fleeting experience in there lives. They had not been able to maintain the dynamics of it.
Then came the promise of the Lord, "Ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost
is come upon you."

Blessings, Maggie 3

In the new birth, the Life of Christ enters the believer, and if nurtured by the believer will eventually choke out the old (sinful) life.

The beilievr is expected to refrain from sin. However, John writes these words to all believers:

I Jn 2:1
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
(KJV) (emphasis mine)

So true!

This is why baptism should be done once you confess belief in Christ with all your heart. Baptism is the putting on of Christ (Gal 3:27) who will dwell within you in righteousness. And why we are told to sin no more, because Christ does not dwell in sin. You are baptized being buried into death with Christ (Romans 6:4)

1 Corinthains 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

I thought you once said baptism wasn't necessary to enter the Kingdom of Heaven?

JoeT

Joe, we must not judge, or prevent the soul of man. (1 Th 4:15) Because we do not know their hearts and what was intentional and not intentional. I trust those "asleep in Christ" are in question by what was taught to them, and not by what they followed, if it is indeed Christ they held in confession of Faith.

Those dead in Christ are raise first (1 Th 4:16), and they are those that are baptized, that do confessed Faith in One Lord One Faith One Baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Eph 4:5-6)

I have continued to say that it is the Law of Faith, holding in ONE LORD One FAITH One BAPTISM, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

We know the will of God was for all to come unto HIM, and God has shown how HE brings forth HIS will to be done.
1 Cr 10:1-2-3-4 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

The hope for all in Christ
1 Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Its not that baptism isn't necessary to follow but that baptism itself does not save you.

Knowledge in doing the will of God, or being obedient to HIS will is necessary. And scripture does say that Baptism NOW doth also save us.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

However, to question the final judgement for eternal life concerning anyone, this should not be done.
We are servants in Christ, and as Christ told HIS disciples, the last shall be first and the first last: for many are called, but few chosen.
Not all do the same path in life, but what of that which is within the heart of "Faith" and not on what your flesh body did, or is doing, or has done.

An dividual can be as that man next to Christ on the cross, who confessed faith, and it was at his last moment of life.

Was he baptized? probably not, but was he circumcised by the law of God? Who knows.. Did he show that he was circumcised of the heart? YES

Is this man shown to be one of the last in a multitude of men to answer God's call? YES

Baptism of John, “preaching the baptism of penance, unto remission of sins”

Versus

Baptism of Christ, " baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost"

On another thread concerning baptism a few interesting questions came up:

1) Did Jesus' baptism have the same effect as John's baptism?
2) Would John's baptism meet the requirements of your Church?
3) Was John's baptism salvific? Would the recipients of John's baptism need to be re-baptized?
4) Was John's baptism related to the Old Testament TaNaKH, a Jewish immersion?
5) What are the effects of the New Testament baptism?
6) As a norm is it possible to enter heaven (the Kingdom of God) without a literal baptism?
7) What are exceptions to the norm?
8) Does baptism make the recipient a member in the body Church?
9) If the baptized individual changes denominations, is the individual re-baptized?
10) Can I have multiple baptisms? If so why? If not why?

One more question, do you see any element connecting the response to these question one to the other.

JoeT
1) Did Jesus' baptism have the same effect as John's baptism?
2) Would John's baptism meet the requirements of your Church?
3) Was John's baptism salvific? Would the recipients of John's baptism need to be re-baptized?
I think the Bible makes it plain (Acts) that John's Baptism isn't sufficient for the Christian
4) Was John's baptism related to the Old Testament TaNaKH, a Jewish immersion?
quite probably, it is a ritual repentance or entering into something new
5) and following
What are the effects of the New Testament baptism?
New Testament Baptism is a public acknowledgement of Christ and that you are dead to all that has gone before. Some Churches might baptise you into their church and in such an instance you should be rebaptised if you go to a new church but as a general rule you only need one immersion Baptism. Baptism isn't necessary for Salvation but to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. The Kingdom of Heaven isn't just a future thing but also the here and now. It is symbolic of leaving the Kingdom of Satan and entering the Kingdom of Heaven.You can be rebaptised if you feel you have fallen away and need to make a new commitment at that level but generally repentance is what is required. You might want the symbolic death to sin again

Wow,
What a load of questions.
My answer is what I believe and that is that infants should be baptized and that one baptism, if does properly, is enough.
Also that baptism by itself does not save, but baptism is necessary fro salvation.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

Is this a catholic belief that baptism is necessary for salvation? Just curious.

) Did Jesus' baptism have the same effect as John's baptism?
2) Would John's baptism meet the requirements of your Church?
3) Was John's baptism salvific? Would the recipients of John's baptism need to be re-baptized?
4) Was John's baptism related to the Old Testament TaNaKH, a Jewish immersion?
5) What are the effects of the New Testament baptism?
6) As a norm is it possible to enter heaven (the Kingdom of God) without a literal baptism?
7) What are exceptions to the norm?
8) Does baptism make the recipient a member in the body Church?
9) If the baptized individual changes denominations, is the individual re-baptized?
10) Can I have multiple baptisms? If so why? If not why?

One more question, do you see any element connecting the response to these question one to the other.

JoeT,

I will attempt to answer these questions or most of them anyway. I know you are chompin at the bit to know what I think. ;)

1. No. The baptism of John was not the same as Jesus. When someone is baptized as a believer in Christ.. it is symbolic of the Lord's death, burial and resurrection. It is an outward expression of an inward change.

2. No. Johns baptism was to repent for the kindgom of God was at hand. He had no knowledge that the Lord Jesus would have to die and be resurrected. It doesn't stand for the same thing.

3. Only if those that John baptized accepted the Lord as their savior, Yes they would need to be re baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

4. Not sure. John Baptized so that people could repent from their sinful living. He preached the gospel of the Kingdom. That is not the same gospel that we preach this side of the cross.

5. It is a step of obedience to the Lord and it shows the world you want to die to your flesh and live for the Lord Jesus

6 &7 I absolutely believe that there will be people in heaven who never got baptized. Salvation comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Sometimes a person may be saved all alone and has no time for someone to baptise them. Or perhaps doesn't understand they should be baptised . Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. It is NOT a requirement for salvation. But is something the Lord ask that we do for him.

8. The only thing baptism does is to express to the world that you belong to Jesus and want to live for him. You became part of the body of Christ the day you received him as lord and savior. This action has nothing to do with what church you attend or whether you are a member and you do NOT become part of the body of Christ during baptism.. that was already done.

9. If you were baptised by true believers after you accepted the Lord Jesus as your savior and you understood what you were doing... no you do not need to be baptized again.

10 I see nowhere in the word where multiple baptisms are necessary. The only time I would have it re done is if I didn't understand it the first time because I was a small child or maybe the church had wrong doctrine... like didn't believe Jesus WAS God. Something of that nature. Otherwise 1 baptism oughtta do you.

classyT,
Thanks for YOUR opinion on those questions.
But I still believe that baptism is needed for salvation as the bible so indicates.
Fred

Fred,

LOL... well now if it was just MY opinion it wouldn't mean too much would it? Ya know what they say about opinions doncha? Not good. Ha ha... anyway, I actually believe that is what the Bible teaches. I know many people do not. That's OK... I never have changed anyone's mind so far. :)

Peace and Kindness,

Tess

ClassyT ,

I view the bible telling us to put on Christ. Follow Christ, Walk having the Spirit of Christ.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Snd,

Me too! :)

But I still believe that baptism is needed for salvation as the bible so indicates.
Fred

AGREE.. Why else would God have told us that even all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea.

Again it is because they too put on Christ , the same spiritual meat and drink, that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

I trust we need to all put on the ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. It is the truth of being one with Christ.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

sndbay.
I agree, "I trust we need to all put on the ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. It is the truth of being one with Christ"
Fred

Sorry to pull out that thread again. I would like to say that I agree onto the last few posts if the baptism implied is water baptism and add a few things since I have some spare time.

I say that because there is also the baptism by the Holy Spirit. (this was already said in the middle pages of this thread itself)

Baptism by immersion is not necessary, but if one does not baptise by immersion, it will be disobeying to God. (I don't know, however, if people who were not baptised were saved or not, dead people rarely talk, but if one knows that God told them to baptise, then he has to)

Baptism by immersion is not necessary, but if one does not baptise by immersion, it will be disobeying to God.

I am one to say, I trust we have to be baptized, and that baptism must be done by the body submersion in water. (immersed completely) We should not go according to man's doctrine, nor should be think man is baptizing the individual. The baptism is done by the SPIRIT, and witnessed by heaven and earth "ONE"

1 John 5:7-8-9 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in ONE. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.



(I don't know, however, if people who were not baptised were saved or not, dead people rarely talk, but if one knows that God told them to baptise, then he has to)

Baptism is necessary as witnessed, and if we believeth not, we have made God a liar. WHY? because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
(1 John 5:10)

I said that it was not necessary because I'm not sure. I'm still not fully 'convinced'. I am wondering what happens to those that happen to know God, but die before they have the time to get baptised.

I, however, personally believe that I have to get baptised (I haven't yet, but plan to next week, I saw this thread weeks ago, but finally decided to have a look, and it was interesting!). I have thought over and over, and came to that conclusion.

I was told, for those saying that baptism must be done for infants, that baptism follows the acceptance of Christ, and an infant does not yet understand that. It has to be done when the person is fully aware of what he is doing, the symbol of it, and the purpose of it.

There have been testimonies, where people said they saw angels 'clapping' in front of them when they raised from the water, instead of the people who were gathered. (hence that God and the angels are pleased when they see we're getting baptised)

Ok, I would like to know, if possible what happens to the people I mentioned in the first paragraph of this post, if you please.

Ok, I would like to know, if possible what happens to the people I mentioned in the first paragraph of this post, if you please.

Unknown008,

I am no judge, and God's Will is done by HIS spiritual power to arouse and invigorate the spirit. If anyone judges, they would be judging God and HIS actions.

I believe One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all, has everything in HIS hands.

God's assurance is that everyone is called, and even previously all were baptism. Refer:

1 Corinthians 10:1-2-3-4 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Scripture warns us not to tempt Christ, that all is an ensample to us.

Unknown008 and sndbay,
Are you saying that people who were not baptized by immersion but otherwise are not baptized at all.
If so I very much disagree with that.
There is NO proof that John the Baptizer completely immersed his people.
Yes they stood in a river, but water could have been poured over their heads.
I was baptized in a Lutheran church, and I strongly resent it if someone says that I was not baptized for I know that the Holy Spirit does dwell within me.
I strongly say that Jesus Christ is the Messiah. Lord and Savior, the Son of God and God the Son.
As the bible tells us I could not say that if it were not but for the will of God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Unknown008 and sndbay,
Are you saying that people who were not baptized by immersion but otherwise are not baptized at all.
Fred

Once Again and posted previously I am no judge.

Also previously posted I believe in the record God witnessed to us of HIS SON in baptism. To say it is not told of us to follow HIS footsteps in baptism, is to call God a lier.

FRED, when people questions their own path, they should take their heart felt questions to the LORD in prayer. Allow the Spirit of truth to led you. Stand still to listen, and surrender man's will to instead do the will of God.

Ok, got a teaching today on baptism, to prepare us and clearing all doubts concerning it.

There are in fact 4 occurrences of baptism, yes 4. I knew only two at first, but there are four.
1. Baptism of repentance (Marc 1:4)
2. Baptism of suffering (Marc 10: 38, 39)
3. Baptism of the christian (Matt 28:19)
4. Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:5)

However, only two concern us, namely the baptism of the christian and that of the Holy Spirit.

And acura, to answer your question, it is found in Matt 3:16

And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him

If Jesus went up out of the water, that surely means that he was immersed with it, right?

Also, Acts 8: 38, 39

38: And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

39: And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Also, if you look for the word baptism wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism), you'll see that its roots are from the greek word "baptizo", which means to immerse.

There is also scripture that compares Baptism to the like figure of the flood of Noah which destroyes evil. And the water of the flood was enough to submerge people.

1 Peter 3:20-21 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Not like the baptism John the Baptist did in forgiveness, NOW it is the good conscience toward God by a death to evil, and raising of life in righteousness by a quickened spirit.


And scripture compares baptism with Christ putting to death the flesh but quickened by the Spirit. We are buried with Christ in our own baptism. The flesh is dead to sin (evil).

(1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit)

Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
(Romans 6:1-2-3)

For he that is dead is freed from sin. (Romans 6:7)

Unknown,

I believe one SHOULD be immersed because of the examples in the word. But I don't believe it is required for salvation so I'm not going to be dogmatic about it.

This is kind of off thread but I was raised in a very fundemental assembly and was there until my late 30's. When they remembered the Lord on Sunday they passed around one loaf of bread and everyone partook and then one glass of wine and everyone drank out of it. It didn't bug me too much until some of the older people started leaving pieces of the bread floating in the wine glass. Now, I'm telling you... it was gross.

The reason I mention it... is because they were insistant we must all drink from one glass because that is how they did it at the last supper. I don't get too hung up on that kind of thing in my old age... if someone wants to be baptized and they aren't completely immersed I believe the Lord will still honor it. It is about the heart and obedience MORE than anything else.

There is Scriptural testimony of baptizing of the young. “And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying: If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and abide there." (Acts 16:15) It's unlikely that this woman would have left the children behind, no more likely than a Jew would have left his male children uncircumcised on day 9.

At the feet of Paul and Silas the magistrate cried, “what must I do”. "And they preached the word of the Lord to him and to all that were in his house. Himself was baptized, and his entire house immediately" (Acts 16:33) It would have been a strange household not to have had children. Further evidence testifies that Paul “baptized the household of Stephanus" (1 Corinthians 1:16), as a Jewish father is obliged to circumcise his 8 day old son.

The relation to circumcision is clear to the Jew? Circumcision wasn't that unusual a ritual in Abraham's antiquity. Brit milah literally means Covenant of Circumcision. Baptism was not unique to the Jewish custom, a great many in the near east practice some form of circumcision. It seems that certain classes of Egyptians did it, as did some Indian tribes. What is unique is that God gave Abraham the commandment to circumcise (Cf. Gen. xvii, 11 and Lev. Xii,3) The Jewish ritual had both spiritual and hygienic purposes not to mention a unique marking of the male body. To the Jew in Abraham's time, Moses' time and the Jew in Christ's time it a physical of a spiritual connection with God. Brit milah was an obligation both for the father and for the child. Not only was the child to be circumcised on the eighth day of the child's life birth, but failing the father and child suffered a spiritual separation. The child would continue to suffer spiritual excision, (unable to enter the Kingdom of God to come – one of the most server punishments in the Jewish culture,) until as an adult he could be circumcised. I'm told the ritual that accompanies the brit milah is a solemn occasion with prayers and blessings recited with the child receiving his Hebrew name. The Jew did not take circumcision lightly; it marked them spiritually and physically as a member of the Jewish community and a future member of the Kingdom of God. It joined their manhood to God. (Cf. If there is interest Judaism Judaism 101: Birth and the First Month of Life (http://www.jewfaq.org/birth.htm#Brit))

The important points here are that circumcision is a Divine convent applied to ALL Jews. Consequently when Paul writes, “In whom also you are circumcised” we understand that God is doing the circumcision in baptism. And equally important is that this is “a circumcision not made by hand in despoiling of the body of the flesh: but in the circumcision of Christ. Buried with him in baptism: in whom also you are risen again by the faith of the operation of God who hath raised him up from the dead.“ Clearly Paul is equating baptism with the definitive mark of circumcision; circumcision that is called baptism, obligatory to both father and child. Every Jewish ear in the crowd would have understood. Baptism is spiritual joining of man to God and until accomplished one suffers the penalty of kareit, (separation). For child and adult alike “he hath quickened together with him, forgiving you all offences: (Col. iii, 11-13)

These biblical testimonies are culturally engrained in Paul's day and it was not necessary to explain them in detail, similar to an American's claim to 'rights' as a cultural understanding of our God given freedoms. It was culturally understood that circumcision, vis-à-vis baptism, included the young. I'm not under any delusion that biblical references include a mandate to run out and baptize our children, but our Christian Tradition, like the Jewish traditions, recognizes the severe dangers to the mortal soul for both the child and his parents. The Roman Catholic Church urges all parents to baptize their children. Why not baptize the children?

JoeT

Joe,
What you said is true.
There is also the biblical case where a great crowd of Jews were ALL baptized.
It is hard to imagine a large crowd of Jews in that day and age with no children in it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

At the feet of Paul and Silas the magistrate cried, “what must I do”. "And they preached the word of the Lord to him and to all that were in his house. Himself was baptized, and his entire house immediately" (Acts 16:33) It would have been a strange household not to have had children.

And I edify what you have said in the name of Christ Jesus, who's word is truth, and not what you have offered to this thread.

Refer:Acts 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed [their] stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

The stripes were what was laid upon them in prison, they were casted into prison and the jailor was given charge of them. They later at midnight prayed, sang praises to God. Then by the hand of God a great earthquake, and all the doors of the prison opened. This all caused the prisoners to believe, and so yes all were baptized.

The meaning of all his in concordances = greek 846, themselves and used being applied to what has previously been mentioned or when the whole discourse is looked at.






Further evidence testifies that Paul “baptized the household of Stephanus" (1 Corinthians 1:16), .

Stephanas household is the inhabited of the structure known as Christian convert of Corinth. (A converted Christian has confessed their belief in Jesus Christ)




The Roman Catholic Church urges all parents to baptize their children. Why not baptize the children?


The will of man is spoken and being taught. And we do understand the will of the parent is that their children would come to know the Lord Jesus. However we have to surrender our will to do the will of God.

The Word spoken by scripture is that one thing hinders baptism, and that one thing is that they by their own liberty confess the begotten Son of God, Jesus Christ. (This is the will of God)

WHY Not baptize infants? because the truth was shown in Jesus walk on earth, and as an infant HE was brought before the house of God in a dedication of thankfulness. He later surrendered to suffer baptism. How old was Jesus when baptize?

Unknown,

I believe one SHOULD be immersed because of the examples in the word. But I don't believe it is required for salvation so I'm not gonna be dogmatic about it.

This is kind of off thread but I was raised in a very fundemental assembly and was there until my late 30's. when they remembered the Lord on Sunday they passed around one loaf of bread and everyone partook and then one glass of wine and everyone drank out of it. It didn't bug me too much until some of the older people started leaving pieces of the bread floating in the wine glass. Now, I'm tellin ya ....it was gross.

The reason I mention it ...is because they were insistant we must all drink from one glass because that is how they did it at the last supper. I don't get too hung up on that kind of thing in my old age....if someone wants to be baptized and they aren't completely immersed I believe the Lord will still honor it. It is about the heart and obedience MORE than anything else.

I agree that baptism does not save. It is accepting Christ in our heart as lord and saviour which does.

I know that immersion is the actual tradition. I would understand too that if one is not completely immersed, the Lord will still honour it. That would be the case when one cannot be immersed totally, like for example, an handicapped would not be easily taken for water immersion, nor would a person suffering from a serious disease. But one who can spare the time for this, complete immersion is preferred. That's my opinion anyway, :)

And yes, Joe and Fred, the bible did not explicitly mentioned the baptism of infants.

If you look in Matt 28:19, you'll see that Jesus told his disciples to go through the nations, and make them disciples of God, and then baptise them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

I wonder how can an infant who doesn't understand yet his/her purpose on earth be a disciple... :rolleyes:

And what sndbay said is another reason. Jesus waited for so many years (30 years) to get baptized. Why not at his birth?

I agree that baptism does not save. It is accepting Christ in our heart as lord and savior which does.

How do we explain away what Christ said to Nicodemus, "unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Are these different waters? If so, whose 'water' would it be? How would you render 'water' in this verse?

Baptism, according to Christ's words (not this Catholic's word), is necessary to enter the Kingdom of God.


I wonder how can an infant who doesn't understand yet his/her purpose on earth be a disciple... :rolleyes:

Compared to adults, infants are not very smart, are they? They can't even care for themselves, need to be feed, put to sleep, etc. The infant cannot survive without the care of adults. You might say they are 'primitive' humans – not quite human (that's an inside joke for people who had kids)? In any event there is a vast distance between the intellect of an infant and an adult. I wonder what the distance between the intellect of an adult and God is? To an omnipotent God, wouldn't the distance between an adult and an infant approach zero, that is relative to the distance between an adult and God? So, couldn't you say that baptism of any person (adult or infant) would be 'infant baptism' when viewed by God?

JoeT

How do we explain away what Christ said to Nicodemus, "unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Are these different waters? If so, whose 'water' would it be? How would you render 'water' in this verse?

Baptism, according to Christ's words (not this Catholic's word), is necessary to enter the Kingdom of God.
Look back to my answer, and look at the verse of Matt 28:19. You have to accept Christ in your heart, then you get baptized. So, if you get baptized, that must mean that you have accepted Christ in your heart. Baptism is a symbol, the physical symbol for Satan, that you have accepted Christ ion your heart. I believe that being born again is more 'spiritual' and you have to make it 'physical', and that's through baptism.


Compared to adults, infants are not very smart, are they? They can't even care for themselves, need to be feed, put to sleep, etc. The infant cannot survive without the care of adults. You might say they are 'primitive' humans – not quite human (that's an inside joke for people who had kids)? In any event there is a vast distance between the intellect of an infant and an adult. I wonder what the distance between the intellect of an adult and God is? To an omnipotent God, wouldn't the distance between an adult and an infant approach zero, that is relative to the distance between an adult and God? So, couldn't you say that baptism of any person (adult or infant) would be 'infant baptism' when viewed by God?

Joe, I believe that there is some point, when a child understands the meaning of God, how important He is in his life, what He did for him, then he is able to be baptized. Accepting God depends on the individual only. I know it was of good intention that parents baptized their children when they are still very very small, but the choice of the infant was not made. He is just being baptized, without knowing the significance of it.

I hope this made sense to you.

Unknown008,
I disagree.
Baptism is far more than a mere symbol.
Baptism is a command instituted by Jesus Christ and therefore a sacrament. Bringing the grace of God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I hope this made sense to you.

No, it doesn't.


Look back to my answer, and look at the verse of Matt 28:19. You have to accept Christ in your heart, and then you get baptized. So, if you get baptized, that must mean that you have accepted Christ in your heart. Baptism is a symbol, the physical symbol for Satan, that you have accepted Christ ion your heart. I believe that being born again is more 'spiritual' and you have to make it 'physical', and that's through baptism.

We look at Matt 28:19 we don't see 'accept in your heart'; instead it commands the Apostles to “[Go] therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.” Why would the ruler of the Kingdom of God command his Apostles to do something they don't need to do, i.e. baptize? In contrast, when you look at John 3:3, we see no ambiguity – none. Christ says, nobody enters except by water and the Spirit. Excuse the pun here, but this is a sink or swim adjuration. Again in verse 5, “born again of the water and the Spirit.” How can man be born again by water, unless these are the waters are the waters of Baptism? Christ, and the Jews of his day would have immediately connected waters to “Mikvah” (MIK-vuh) the Jewish cleansing ritual, “[Litugical]. Gathering. A ritual bath used for spiritual purification. It is used primarily in conversion rituals and after the period of sexual separation during a woman's menstrual cycles, but many Chasidim immerse themselves in the mikvah regularly for general spiritual purification. See Search Results (http://www.jewfaq.org/cgi-bin/search.cgi?Keywords=mikveh) and Mikveh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikveh)



Joe, I believe that there is some point, when a child understands the meaning of God, how important He is in his life, what He did for him, then he is able to be baptized. Accepting God depends on the individual only. I know it was of good intention that parents baptized their children when they are still very very small, but the choice of the infant was not made. He is just being baptized, without knowing the significance of it.

The graces conveyed in baptism are real and efficacious; remaining for life. They consist of the following:

The remission of all sin, original and actual
Remission of temporal punishment
Infusion of supernatural grace, gifts, and virtues
Conferral of the right to special graces
Impression of a character on the soul

So, to withhold such graces would not be following Christ; “But Jesus said to them: Suffer the little children, and forbid them not to come to me: for the kingdom of heaven is for such.” Matt 19:14

JoeT

Joe,
When it come to baptism that is my very special favorite passage, "But Jesus said to them: Suffer the little children, and forbid them not to come to me: for the kingdom of heaven is for such.” Matt 19:14
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Unknown008,
I disagree.
Baptism is far more than a mere symbol.
Baptism is a command instituted by Jesus Christ and therefore a sacrament. bringing the grace of God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Yes, baptism is a symbol, but also a command. I never said the contrary. This applies to the quote of Joe hereunder too. I was only wondering earlier what happened to the people that didn't have time to baptize and they were dead. For example, if one was seriously ill, terminal cancer. What happens if he accepts God, and wants to get baptized but died before being able to do it? That was what I was wondering. I didn't say that baptism is not important. Since it is a command, disobeying to that forbids us the entrance to be saved.


We look at Matt 28:19 we don’t see ‘accept in your heart’; instead it commands the Apostles to “[Go] therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.”Why would the ruler of the Kingdom of God command his Apostles to do something they don’t need to do, i.e. baptize?

Doesn't that mean that they have to learn about God? And once you know God, if you believe in Him, you will have to accept Him in your heart. Notice that they had to teach before they baptize the nations. If that was not the case, then any non-believer could merely take the baptism, without actually knowing or accepting God.


In contrast, when you look at John 3:3, we see no ambiguity – none. Christ says, nobody enters except by water and the Spirit. Excuse the pun here, but this is a sink or swim adjuration. Again in verse 5, “born again of the water and the Spirit.” How can man be born again by water, unless these are the waters are the waters of Baptism? Christ, and the Jews of his day would have immediately connected waters to “Mikvah” (MIK-vuh) the Jewish cleansing ritual, “[Litugical]. gathering. A ritual bath used for spiritual purification. It is used primarily in conversion rituals and after the period of sexual separation during a woman's menstrual cycles, but many Chasidim immerse themselves in the mikvah regularly for general spiritual purification. See Search Results and Mikveh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

John 3:3 : Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

John 3:5 : Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

I just found something... in verse 3, He says "see" and does not mention water.
In verse 5, I interpret that as being: After being born again (spiritually, that is in your heart, in v3) then to take: the physical baptism, that is water baptism, and the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I am not saying that you have to get baptized by water, then by the Holy Spirit, but you have to be born again first, then do both.

I just search 'Chasidim', I ended up with Chasidism and your search link said that it was a sect...


The graces conveyed in baptism are real and efficacious; remaining for life. They consist of the following:

The remission of all sin, original and actual
Remission of temporal punishment
Infusion of supernatural grace, gifts, and virtues
Conferral of the right to special graces
Impression of a character on the soul

So, to withhold such graces would not be following Christ; “But Jesus said to them: Suffer the little children, and forbid them not to come to me: for the kingdom of heaven is for such.” Matt 19:14

I did not say withhold those graces. I said that baptism is a personal choice. One cannot be baptized through the choice of another one. Once one is ready to get baptized and gets baptized, he will get those graces, even if it took some time. During that time, that one was being taught.

I will ask again, : Jesus himself waited for so many years to get baptized. Why not at his birth?

I know that Jesus said that, and this is because children are innocent, they do not know yet whether they are right or wrong (although it is less and less the case today, but it is still present). He said that because often, adults know what they are doing is wrong, but yet, they do it.

Unknown008,
Several different Churches believe that a person will be considered baptized if they have desired to be so but die before the ceremony actually takes place.
The Catholic Church is one of those that so believe.
The reason is because of the person's good INTENT and the infinite and perfect love and mercy of God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Unknown008,
Several different Churches believe that a person will be considered baptized if they have desired to be so but die before the ceremony actually takes place.
The Catholic Church is one of those that so believe.
The reason is because of the person's good INTENT and the infinite and perfect love and mercy of God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

That's how I feel too, and explains why I said that 'baptism is not necessary'! Phew, you at last saw my point! Thanks Fred! :)

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

I agree that baptism does not save. It is accepting Christ in our heart as lord and saviour which does.

I know that immersion is the actual tradition. I would understand too that if one is not completely immersed, the Lord will still honour it. That would be the case when one cannot be immersed totally, like for example, an handicapped would not be easily taken for water immersion, nor would a person suffering from a serious disease. But one who can spare the time for this, complete immersion is preferred. That's my opinion anyway, :)

And yes, Joe and Fred, the bible did not explicitly mentioned the baptism of infants.

If you look in Matt 28:19, you'll see that Jesus told his disciples to go through the nations, and make them disciples of God, and then baptise them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

I wonder how can an infant who doesn't understand yet his/her purpose on earth be a disciple... :rolleyes:

And what sndbay said is another reason. Jesus waited for so many years (30 years) to get baptized. Why not at his birth?

Unknown,

I believe in dedicating my baby or infant to the Lord Jesus. I did it privately in my home while rocking them to sleep. It was just a prayer to the Lord so he knew I wanted to raise my boys to know HIM. I used a promise in His word that says those who honor HIM.. HE will honor. I asked for him to honor the fact that I would teach them how to become born again and I would bring them up to both love and fear HIm.

I get your issue with baptizing infants and yet I understand why many Christians do it. It is a sign to the Lord they will raise their children to follow Christ. BUT It isn't an act of the infants will, nor is it their decision. And ultimately every person has to make their own decision concerning Christ. My boys are not ultimatically in the body of Christ because I am. They have to ask the Lord to be their savior, I can't do it for them.

In the NT... you will read in one of Paul's letters that he had baptized some brothers entire household. Many assume there could have been small children or infants in that family. I don't know?? I personally waited until my children understood what was happening, and WHY. But baptism isn't necessary for salvation, however it is an obedient step AFTER salvation. That is what I can glean from the word. Many will disagree.

I wanted to be immersed and I wanted my children to be too. It is a "picture: of dying to one self and coming up out of the water to live for Christ. ( outward expression of an inward change) I just don't get dogmatic about it. If someone tells me they Love Jesus, they live for him, they walk in the Spirit and they were only "sprinkled" during baptism.....i guess i figure that is between them and the Lord Jesus.

The Lord Jesus wasn't baptized until he was ready to begin his earthy ministry. BUT HIS baptism in NOT the same as ours. When John the baptist baptized he preached the gospel of the Kingdom...not the gospel of salvation ( not Paul's gospel)....and JOHN had NO understanding or knowledge of the Lord Jesus' death, burial and ressurection. Which is what our baptism and Christianity is all about. Those our my thoughts....what say you?

FRED,

Jesus surely DID say to bring the little children to him. when I was a little girl around 4 years we had a Bible for children and I could "read" that story outloud EVERY word. Of course it was just memory because I couldn't really read. I LOVED it. And I still do. Children are precious to our savior and it takes child like faith to come to him. It is a lesson for all of us... :) We as christian parents and grandparents need to take serious consideration to this passage in scripture! What a wonderful picture of his love and his interest in our children's lives!! :)

Review please, and edify by the Word of God


1 Peter 3:20-21 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:


Who says baptism does not save us? Do you not see and hear the Word of God ?

Tell me where scripture tells us that baptism does not save.


Without baptism how would we put on Christ? How would we be buried in Christ?

Please tell me, for I have been told the ONE BAPTISM is the same spiritual body as one with Christ.



Psalm 143:11-12 Quicken me, O LORD, for thy name's sake: for thy righteousness' sake bring my soul out of trouble. And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant.



But baptism isn't necessary for salvation, however it is an obedient step AFTER salvation. That is what I can glean from the word. Many will disagree.


Review:

The meaning of word quick (Acts 10:42)
zao 2198 = living water, having vital power in itself and exerting the same upon the soul

Who will be judged ?

Acts 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

DEAD
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

QUICK (or) the QUICKENED = by spiritual power to arouse and invigorate
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

If Christ will judge the quick and the dead, who are they? Are they baptized?

Unknown008,
Please do not misinterpret what I said.
I do strongly believe that baptism is necessary.
But IF there is a situation where a person intends to be baptized but dies before it can happen that intent is considered by the love and mercy of God as a baptism.
So you see that baptism is necessary either way.
Baptism by itself does not save but it is necessary for salvation.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

I don't think the Lord makes exceptions for anyone. If baptism is required for salvation, then it is required for salvation. But it isn't required... Jesus finished the work on the cross. I'm not suggesting that baptism isn't important or something the Lord wants us to do. But the bible says that salvation is of the LORD. He is the only one that can save us.

Think about it. It takes another person to baptize us. The Lord finished the work... we are to accept it as a free gift. I don't want to have to rely on another human being to get me to heaven. No person can baptize themselves. Baptism has nothing to do with salvation. It has to do with obedience. But we have been around this mountain before and neither of us have changed our minds. One of us is wrong... glad it ain't me.! ;)

...But [baptism] isn't required...Jesus finished the work on the cross. I'm not suggesting that baptism isn't important or something the Lord wants us to do. But the bible says that salvation is of the LORD. He is the only one that can save us.

Look into the very last chapter of Matthew. What's said there? This Chapter tells of Christ's last few words before ascending to His Kingdom in Heaven. Christ warrants and commissions the Apostles with His vested powers, “teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.”

Focus the entire story of Christ on this moment, you know it as well as I do. But focus the meaning of the beatitudes, communion, confession, His sermon on the mount, His healing miracles, and all His teachings on this very last moment with the Princes of His Kingdom on Earth; men He tutored for some three years or four years. What does he say – “have a nice day”? “It's not really necessary but I want you to traipes around the county dunking people?“ NO! NO! He said, “baptize them in the NAME of the “Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.” WHY! Why would Christ say such a thing? Surly, you've got to see some importance? Wouldn't you think baptism is a little more than a 'good thing' given what he told Nicodemus (Cf. John 3:3)? I challenge you to explain these contradictions to your own satisfaction. No need to argure one side or the other here, just foucus and prayerfully reflect on these questions for awhile. There is only one universal answer, one truth, which has been taught for 2.000 years.


JoeT

.

Think about it. It takes another person to baptize us. The Lord finished the work ...we are to accept it as a free gift. I don't want to have to rely on another human being to get me to heaven. No person can baptize themself. Baptism has nothing to do with salvation. It has to do with obedience. But we have been around this mountain before and neither of us have changed our minds. one of us is wrong....glad it ain't me.!!! ;)

ClassyT,

Scripture says Christ was baptized by the Spirit of God descending. Baptism is perform by the Spirit of God.. It takes no mans hand to baptize.. You could be led into a pool of water of your own surrendered will, to do the Will of God . No greater witness then God (1 John 5:5-9)

Mark 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him


Acts 8:38 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

He is always with you..
Hebrew 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

ClassyT,

Scripture says Christ was baptized by the Spirit of God descending. Baptism is perform by the Spirit of God. It takes no man’s hand to baptize. You could be led into a pool of water of your own surrendered will, to do the Will of God. No greater witness then God (1 John 5:5-9)

Explain why Christ Commissioned His Church to ‘go baptize’ in Matthew chapter 28? Can you explain why this is?

You’re right; always “the testimony of God is greater.” He commanded His Captains to go Baptize; and by extension, commands us to be baptized. If baptism is a meaningless symbol surly you can show how this verse is meaningless also. By all means, look to the credibility of the testimony!

JoeT

JoeT,

I see the importance!! I don't say it isn't important Joe. I have been baptized and my children as well. BUT it does NOT save us. Do you understand that the Lord Jesus Christ was talking to the JEWISH nation! Did you ever read where the Lord Jesus even talked ABOUT salvation, the bride of Christ, or church or GRACE period. NO! He didn't. Do you understand that in the 4 Gospels you will never find HOW TO BE SAVED or how salvation WORKS. Not even John 3:16 is the Gospel. Do you Know that the dicsiples had NO clue there would be a period of Grace and that Gentiles would be part of the Church! They didn't understand why he died on the cross and were shocked he rose again! Although Jesus told them it would happen. But he never explained the period of Grace.. he never explained his BRIDE! He didn't explain exactly how being born again REALLY took place. They were ALL baffled. For a JEW to turn from JUDISM and be baptized because they believed that JESUS WAS the messiah... was ALL that was necessary at that point. Peter had NO knowledge of anything MORE than Jesus setting up his earthy kingdom. That is why PETER when he is talking to the Jews in Acts tells them ( the JEWS of HIS time)to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins! Peter believed that Jesus was coming back to set up the kingdom in HIS life time. He had NO knowledge of Paul's Gospel of Grace! You better believe those Jews needed to just that... but the flip side is when the Lord revealed the Gospel of Grace to Paul (the apostle to the Gentiles.) That is when the writings started to be written directly to the CHURCH or the body of Christ. Paul's gospel was and IS.. If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shall believe in thy HEART that God raised him from the dead... THOU SHALT BE SAVED. Paul baptized families... but he understood it was the finished work of CHRIST and HIS shed blood that SAVED.
So... baptism IS important... it is an outward expression to the world of an inward change. It just doesn't save me. What can wash away my sins?. nothing but the blood of Jesus!

There are NO contradictions in the word IF you understand how to read it... who it is written DIRECTLY to... who the person is SPEAKING about.. what is happening in that period.

I don't consider baptism just "good thing" It is what the Lord asked us to do... not for salvation though. He also asked us to partake in the Lord's supper or communion to remember HIM and his death. I do that as well. WHY? Not to save my soul but because he asked me to.


I know, I know... I didn't change your mind. But you can't blame a girl for trying!

edit: you can't blame a girl with multiple natures from trying... ( yes, I'm making fun of myself and you for saying that earlier today. See?. all my personalities have a sense of humor!)

JoeT,

I see the importance!!! I don't say it isn't important Joe. I have been baptized and my children as well. BUT it does NOT save us. Do you understand that the Lord Jesus Christ was talking to the JEWISH nation! Did you ever read where the Lord Jesus even talked ABOUT salvation, the bride of Christ, or church or GRACE period.? NO! he didn't. Do you understand that in the 4 Gospels you will never find HOW TO BE SAVED or how salvation WORKS. Not even John 3:16 is the Gospel. Do you Know that the dicsiples had NO clue there would be a period of Grace and that Gentiles would be part of the Church! They didn't understand why he died on the cross and were shocked he rose again! Although Jesus told them it would happen. But he never explained the period of Grace..he never explained his BRIDE! He didn't explain exactly how being born again REALLY took place. They were ALL baffled. For a JEW to turn from JUDISM and be baptized because they believed that JESUS WAS the messiah...was ALL that was necessary at that point. Peter had NO knowledge of anything MORE than Jesus setting up his earthy kingdom. That is why PETER when he is talking to the Jews in Acts tells them ( the JEWS of HIS time)to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins! Peter believed that Jesus was coming back to set up the kingdom in HIS life time. He had NO knowledge of Paul's Gospel of Grace! You better believe those Jews needed to just that...but the flip side is when the Lord revealed the Gospel of Grace to Paul (the apostle to the Gentiles.) That is when the writings started to be written directly to the CHURCH or the body of Christ. Paul's gospel was and IS..If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shall believe in thy HEART that God raised him from the dead...THOU SHALT BE SAVED. Paul baptized families...but he understood it was the finished work of CHRIST and HIS shed blood that SAVED.
So...baptism IS important...it is an outward expression to the world of an inward change. It just doesn't save me.! What can wash away my sins????...nothing but the blood of Jesus!

There are NO contradictions in the word IF you understand how to read it....who it is written DIRECTLY to...who the person is SPEAKING about..what is happening in that period of time.

I don't consider baptism just "good thing" It is what the Lord asked us to do...not for salvation though. He also asked us to partake in the Lord's supper or communion to remember HIM and his death. I do that as well. WHY? not to save my soul but because he asked me to.


I know, i know....i didn't change your mind. But ya can't blame a girl for trying!

edit: you can't blame a girl with multiple natures from trying....( yes, I'm making fun of myself and you for saying that earlier today. see?....all my personalities have a sense of humor!)

I can only surmise it was the old-you.

JoeT

Note: You lost me in the suppositions and ill formed rationality.

Never-the-less I firmly believe that Jesus command about baptism is extremely important for salvation.
As I have said before, baptism by its self does not save, but it is a necessity along with faith and doing as Jesus instructed us all to do.
Considering all that is written in the bible about baptism I find it to be a great mystery that there are folks who do not believe that it is a necessity.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I should have been more clear on that point... baptism is not necessary in the sense that a believer intending to get baptized did not have time to get baptized. I do believe that we have to get baptized, because we have to obey our God, and it forms part of our journey towards Christlikeness. Disobeying to God (not getting baptized, here) is going against God.

Sorry, sndbay,


It takes no mans hand to baptize..

I have not seen anywhere in the scripture where water baptism was performed alone. Jesus went to John Baptist, Philip baptized the eunuch, etc... :confused: I do understand that it is the Spirit of God which baptize us by the Holy Spirit.

Unknown008,
Your point id well made.
God uses his followers, us, often to do His work.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Explain why Christ Commissioned His Church to 'go baptize' in Matthew chapter 28? Can you explain why this is?

You're right; always “the testimony of God is greater.” He commanded His Captains to go Baptize; and by extension, commands us to be baptized. If baptism is a meaningless symbol surly you can show how this verse is meaningless also. By all means, look to the credibility of the testimony!

JoeT


Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.


Matthew 29:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
29:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

Joe, 1st we are all brothers and sisters, and I love you all. We are not to be denominations in Christ, but instead we are to be perfect, and have unity in Christ. We are the many members of one body, and that one body is Christ. Christ dwells in us. It is not the structured building but it is the fellowship of members that walks in the spirit.

2nd His disciple were told to go teach all nation (what are they to teach?) The gospel, the prinicple doctrine Jesus Christ, the milk for babes as Paul called it. And in teaching, the principle doctrine includes baptism with the confession of the begotten Son of God.

NOW if we review Mark 1, it is the principle doctrine being spoken. (Mark 1:1)
But let us Refer (Mark 1:9 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost) Who is HE? He will baptize you!

The symbolic water washing is claimed by John the Baptist's teaching to come.. But HE, will baptize you! = It is not John ..

How else could it be written all were Baptized by the same spiritual Rock, and that Rock is Christ Jesus REFER (1 Cr 10:2-3-4 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ)


Christ is always with us. HE is THERE
unto Moses = In the mist of Moses and what was taken place, and those brought out of captivity, Christ was there with them and did baptism them.





Sorry, sndbay,

I have not seen anywhere in the scripture where water baptism was performed alone. Jesus went to John Baptist, Philip baptized the eunuch, etc... :confused: I do understand that it is the Spirit of God which baptize us by the Holy Spirit.

Who would baptize John the Baptist?

I am comforted in knowing Christ is always with us, and it is He who sent the HOLY SPIRIT to comfort us.

Christ leds the way, we just have to follow. Both spiritually and phyical, both bodies. Applying: ONE FAITH ONE LORD ONE BAPTISM, = (completeness) ONE GOD, and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


Fred,

I don't think the Lord makes exceptions for anyone. If baptism is required for salvation, then it is required for salvation. But it isn't required......Jesus finished the work on the cross. I'm not suggesting that baptism isn't important or something the Lord wants us to do. But the bible says that salvation is of the LORD. He is the only one that can save us.


I agree with Fred on this ClassyT,

# 1 ONE FAITH
# 2 ONE LORD
# 3 ONE BAPTISM

Awareness throughtout scripture the spiritual significance of number three.

Three. Denotes completeness, as three lines complete a plane figure. Hence, three is significant of Divine perfection and completeness. The third day completes the fundamentals of creation-work. The fourth, fifth, and sixth days are the counterpart and repetition of the first, second, and third, and correspond respectively. The number, three, includes resurrection also; for on the third day the earth rose up out of the deep, and the fruit rose up out of the earth.

AND of course, the trinity of Father Son and Holy Spirit is shown in three = ONE

It takes no mans hand to baptize.. You could be led into a pool of water of your own surrendered will, to do the Will of God . No greater witness then God

You said that, concerning water baptism.


I have not seen anywhere in the scripture where water baptism was performed alone. Jesus went to John Baptist, Philip baptized the eunuch, etc... :confused:I do understand that it is the Spirit of God which baptize us by the Holy Spirit.

I said that, concerning water baptism.


Who would baptize John the Baptist?

I am comforted in knowing Christ is always with us, and it is He who sent the HOLY SPIRIT to comfort us.

Christ leds the way, we just have to follow. Both spiritually and phyical, both bodies. Applying: ONE FAITH ONE LORD ONE BAPTISM, = (completeness) ONE GOD, and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

And you said that.

This tend to be more about baptism by the Holy Spirit to me, not water baptism. :(

I can only surmise it was the old-you.

JoeT

Note: You lost me in the suppositions and ill formed rationality.

LOL LOL LOL... sorry but that was funny. "Ill formed rationality"... my husband would REALLY like that statement.

Oh well, what you people call ill formed rationality... I call PROFOUND and exceedingly deep! :D

[QUOTE=sndbay



I agree with Fred on this ClassyT,

[/QUOTE]

I know you do... sigh... ok. You can both be wrong! :D

You said that, concerning water baptism.



I said that, concerning water baptism.



And you said that.

This tend to be more about baptism by the Holy Spirit to me, not water baptism. :(

Unknown008 I am not positive about what you are asking.. but I think the question is what was the baptism of John compared to what you believe is the HOLY SPIRIT.

What we have for awareness is that scripture tells us whether it was John the Baptist of water baptism or whther it is the commanded baptism by Christ, Both are the same baptism, because both are the spiritual baptism done by the spirit of God.

Both were witnessed by heaven and earth because they are
Heaven= Father+Word+Holy Ghost, and Earth = Spirit + Water + Blood

The Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

Our Father gave record of this in Christ, and Our Father did testified that what Christ suffered in baptism, He was well pleased with. Our Father clearly testified (both) suffered baptism as the ONE baptism.

" ONE Baptism " is the spirit of God quickening the body. BECAUSE Without a good conscience toward God we could not be buried in Christ. The flesh body has to put on Christ.

(1 Cr 10:2-3-4) will confirm the same spiritual Rock was Christ in baptism, even for those before Christ's ever walked on earth.

Ok, I'll repeat my question once more:

I have not seen anywhere in the scripture where water baptism was performed alone. John the Baptist baptized Jesus, Philip baptized the eunuch, etc...

But you said that "It takes no mans hand to baptize.. "

I don't understand that because water baptism is performed by someone, by a human being, as in the examples I said previously.

Ok, I'll repeat my question once more:

I have not seen anywhere in the scripture where water baptism was performed alone. John the Baptist baptized Jesus, Philip baptized the eunuch, etc...

But you said that "It takes no mans hand to baptize.. "

I don't understand that because water baptism is performed by someone, by a human being, as in the examples I said previously.

Okay I know, but I ask you then WHO? WHO would baptism John the baptist? Who if you need the helping hand of man would led John into water to be baptized himself?

Or do you think John was not baptized?

And who baptized the people who followed Moses out of captivity that were in the red sea and baptized?

Ok, I don't know my bible much, but I would think that the parents of John the Baptist would be the ones, Zechariah or Elizabeth...

About Moses, I just carried out a search, the bible does not mention who actually baptised them. :(

Ok, I'll repeat my question once more:

I have not seen anywhere in the scripture where water baptism was performed alone. John the Baptist baptized Jesus, Philip baptized the eunuch, etc...

But you said that "It takes no mans hand to baptize.. "

I don't understand that because water baptism is performed by someone, by a human being, as in the examples I said previously.

The question is dead on! Every baptism described in Scripture is of water. Go back to my post no 83 and follow the link to Mikveh See Search Results (http://www.jewfaq.org/cgi-bin/search.cgi?Keywords=mikveh) and Mikveh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikveh)

John’s baptism was a Mikveh. It required running water, but we don’t have any writing whether baptism of this type ‘required’ submersion. It seems it depended on the reason for the Mikveh.

Baptism in the Church requires both matter (water) and formula ("in the name of the Father and ...") If not then why Matt 29? Do you think that Christ was ignorant of his own Jewish faith?


JoeT

Ok, I don't know my bible much, but I would think that the parents of John the Baptist would be the ones, Zechariah or Elizabeth...

About Moses, I just carried out a search, the bible does not mention who actually baptised them. :(

There is the verse of Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

The change that took place is shown in Acts 1:5, and probably what you are questioning.

It still remains fact that scripture tell us even when John was baptizing of water, it was the witnessed presence of God. It was Our Father who sent his servant John out as the greatest prophet, calling people to come into water to be baptism. It is all done by the hand of God, do you agree

Joe, then what would you say for:

Acts 1: 5 :for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

Acts 11:16 : Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Thanks for pointing that out, a typo of me :o

There is the verse of Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

The change that took place is shown in Acts 1:5, and probably what you are questioning.

It still remains fact that scripture tell us even when John was baptizing of water, it was the witnessed presence of God. It was Our Father who sent his servant John out as the greatest prophet, calling people to come into water to be baptism. It is all done by the hand of God, do you agree

Yes, I agree with that. I will take it as water baptism is done by the servants of God, people. I cannot deny something that is not even mentioned in the bible. I do know that when we are baptised, we need witnesses, I mean from heaven and earth. I'm not overlooking the fact that you already said that there is no greater witness than God.

Baptism in the Church requires both matter (water) and formula ("in the name of the Father and ...") If not then why Matt 29? Do you think that Christ was ignorant of his own Jewish faith?


JoeT

As it would also be for any being baptized today.. Water/Holy Spirit.. Confession of faith in the begotten Son of God /Blood.. and Spirit/ One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

In the name of Father Son and Holy Spirit

Yes, I agree with that. I will take it as water baptism is done by the servants of God, people. I cannot deny something that is not even mentioned in the bible. I do know that when we are baptised, we need witnesses, I mean from heaven and earth. I'm not overlooking the fact that you already said that there is no greater witness than God.

Sincerely what you are comfortable with and can REST on..


~in Christ/Faith

Joe, then what would you say for:

Acts 1: 5 :for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
And so it was, John TRULY baptized with water, and sometime after the ascension they were baptized by the Holy Spirit. Juat as Luke tells us, the matter however isn’t water but fire. “John answered, saying unto all: I indeed baptize you with water: but there shall come one mightier than I, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to loose. He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire” (Luke 3:16 - my emphasis )

St. Chrysostom explains it best:


But why does Christ say, You shall be baptized, when in fact there was no water in the upper room? Because the more essential part of Baptism is the Spirit, through Whom indeed the water has its operation; in the same manner our Lord also is said to be anointed, not that He had ever been anointed with oil, but because He had received the Spirit. Besides, we do in fact find them receiving a baptism with water [and a baptism with the Spirit], and these at different moments. In our case both take place under one act, but then they were divided. For in the beginning they were baptized by John; since, if harlots and publicans went to that baptism, much rather would they who thereafter were to be baptized by the Holy Ghost. Then, that the Apostles might not say, that they were always having it held out to them in promises John 14:15-16, (for indeed Christ had already discoursed much to them concerning the Spirit, that they should not imagine It to be an impersonal Energy or Operation, (ἐ νέργειαν ἀνυπόστατον) that they might not say this, then, He adds, not many days hence. And He did not explain when, that they might always watch: but, that it would soon take place, He told them, that they might not faint; yet the exact time He refrained from adding, that they might always be vigilant. Nor does He assure them by this alone; I mean, by the shortness of the time, but withal by saying, The promise which you have heard of Me. For this is not, says He, the only time I have told you, but already I have promised what I shall certainly perform. What wonder then that He does not signify the day of the final consummation, when this day which was so near He did not choose to reveal? And with good reason; to the end they may be ever wakeful, and in a state of expectation and earnest heed. Homilies on the Acts of the Apostles, Homily 1 CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 1 on the Acts of the Apostles (Chrysostom) (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/210101.htm)

Just so you know it wasn’t criticism; I do it out of the constant habit of correcting my own spelling.

JoeT

Does that mean you disagree with your previous post, saying that :


Every baptism described in Scripture is of water

And I would like to have the answer from the opposite opinons concerning Baptism does NOW SAVE..

If you feel is does not SAVE, then what about scripture that says it does?

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Comments on this post #106 classyT agrees: You are correct.. even the Lord Jesus had John baptize him...
____________________________________
Acts 1: 5 :for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

Acts 11:16 : Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Then what took place here and why?(without the hands of man)

Does that mean you disagree with your previous post, saying that :


Every baptism described in Scripture is of water.

JoeT



Unknown008, I agree with Joe,

Every baptism in scripture is done of water. Whether you are led to water by John the Baptist, or led by the disciples, all were bapized by the spirit of God and water. ( and eventually that was shown of the early day baptism)

That is exactly why I trust that man can led you to water of baptism or preach baptism of the Holy Spirit, but it take no man hands to baptize of the Holy Spirit..


Let me example this another way, and I hope Joe will find it meets his approval as well.

The church priest takes the infant to baptize them with water, so they were led to the water of baptism. It is only by the hand of God, known as the spirit of God, that baptizes with the Holy Spirit. The scripture in Acts have exampled that, by the word of our Lord, the Holy Spirit would be given by the hand of God.

I believe the spirit of God does manifest the revealed truth within the infant when God Wills. And the Holy Spirit is not given until the confessed belief of the begotten Son, Jesus Christ .

That is also why I believe infants should be dedicated to God as infants, and led to water of baptism at an older age.. when the reveal truth and quicken spirit by the Holy Spirit can offer the newness of life, and putting a cap on the old nature.

The intention of the church is good, but God is patient to manifest forbearance in accordance to HIS Will.

Edit: to add, it is also why Peter said the Gentiles who received the Holy Spirit must still be baptized of water..

Unknown008, I agree with Joe,

Every baptism in scripture is done of water. Whether you are led to water by John the Baptist, or led by the disciples, all were bapized by the spirit of God and water. ( and eventually that was shown of the early day baptism)

That is exactly why I trust that man can led you to water of baptism or preach baptism of the Holy Spirit, but it take no man hands to baptize of the Holy Spirit..


Let me example this another way, and I hope Joe will find it meets his approval as well.

Wait wait wait. I was talking of water baptism, as the 'part' water baptism. I was referring only to the part of baptism, which is water baptism. I know that only Jesus baptizes by the Holy Spirit, and I have clearly said that in previous posts. I was only saying that water baptism is done by man, the baptism of the Holy Spirit by Jesus. Baptism, as a whole, does require both baptism by water and baptism by the Holy Spirit.


The church priest takes the infant to baptize them with water, so they were led to the water of baptism. It is only by the hand of God, known as the spirit of God, that baptizes with the Holy Spirit. The scripture in Acts have exampled that, by the word of our Lord, the Holy Spirit would be given by the hand of God.

I believe the spirit of God does manifest the revealed truth within the infant when God Wills. And the Holy Spirit is not given until the confessed belief of the begotten Son, Jesus Christ .

That is also why I believe infants should be dedicated to God as infants, and led to water of baptism at an older age.. when the reveal truth and quicken spirit by the Holy Spirit can offer the newness of life, and putting a cap on the old nature.

The intention of the church is good, but God is patient to manifest forbearance in accordance to HIS Will.

Edit: to add, it is also why Peter said the Gentiles who received the Holy Spirit must still be baptized of water..

I do agree with that.

And I would like to have the answer from the opposite opinons concerning Baptism does NOW SAVE..

If you feel is does not SAVE, then what about scripture that says it does?

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

If you're referring to me as well, I'll say that I first believe that we are saved when we accept Christ as our Lord and Saviour. The only thing that made me stumble on that is the case when someone does not have time to get baptised (although he was on the point to do so) and dies. Is he saved? You already answered that too, nobody except the Lord knows.

Wait wait wait. I was talking of water baptism, as the 'part' water baptism. I was referring only to the part of baptism, which is water baptism. I know that only Jesus baptizes by the Holy Spirit, and I have clearly said that in previous posts. I was only saying that water baptism is done by man, the baptism of the Holy Spirit by Jesus. Baptism, as a whole, does require both baptism by water and baptism by the Holy Spirit.

A sacrament is an exterior** action ('work' in your vernacular) of an interior change instituted by God. Baptism is a sacrament. Christ mandated baptism – see Matthew 28. The interior change is the spiritual graces that work with the free will and conveyed by the Holy Spirit.

As stated above (Question 62, Article 1), sacraments derive from their institution the power of conferring grace. Wherefore it seems that a sacrament is then instituted, when it receives the power of producing its effect. Now Baptism received this power when Christ was baptized. Consequently Baptism was truly instituted then, if we consider it as a sacrament. But the obligation of receiving this sacrament was proclaimed to mankind after the Passion and Resurrection. First, because Christ's Passion put an end to the figurative sacraments, which were supplanted by Baptism and the other sacraments of the New Law. Secondly, because by Baptism man is "made conformable" to Christ's Passion and Resurrection, in so far as he dies to sin and begins to live anew unto righteousness. Consequently it behooved Christ to suffer and to rise again, before proclaiming to man his obligation of conforming himself to Christ's Death and Resurrection. St. Thomas Aquinas , The Summa Theologica III, 66,2 SUMMA THEOLOGICA: The sacrament of Baptism (Tertia Pars, Q. 66) (http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4066.htm)

As stated before, a sacrament has two parts, matter and form. The matter is water, the form is “In the name of the Father… etc.”

There aren't 'two baptisms' – one symbolic by a priest, another done by the Holy Spirit. Rather only one baptism with both water and Spirit as stated by St. Chrysostom, “Whom indeed the water has its operation; in the same manner our Lord also is said to be anointed, not that He had ever been anointed with oil, but because He had received the Spirit.”

JoeT

I'm still confused... in all the cases that I have seen, there is one moment for baptism by water, and another distinct moment by the Holy Spirit. Why not both at the same time, making one whole baptism?

If you're referring to me as well, I'll say that I first believe that we are saved when we accept Christ as our Lord and Saviour. The only thing that made me stumble on that is the case when someone does not have time to get baptised (although he was on the point to do so) and dies. Is he saved? You already answered that too, nobody except the Lord knows.


This is why Christ was not baptized at birth, but rather was taken and presented to the Lord.

Luke 2:23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord)

No one seems to acknowledge the fact that this is written.

I'm still confused... in all the cases that I have seen, there is one moment for baptism by water, and another distinct moment by the Holy Spirit. Why not both at the same time, making one whole baptism?

That's what I said. One baptism - the rite and the spiritual change

JoeT

But that's what I was saying too Joe... :(

I'm still confused... in all the cases that I have seen, there is one moment for baptism by water, and another distinct moment by the Holy Spirit. Why not both at the same time, making one whole baptism?

I trust it is done that way when the individual follows Christ/The Word. Confessing the begotten Son, surrendering to God's will, and baptism by water and Holy Spirit.


Edit: to add

1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

In the name of Father+ Son + Holy Spirit

but that's what i was saying too joe... :(

Oops

This is why Christ was not baptized at birth, but rather was taken and presented to the Lord.

Luke 2:23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord)

No one seems to acknowledge the fact that this is written.

How do you know the reason why Christ wasn't baptized at birth? He was circumcised on the proper day. Then why isn't circumcision required for salvation? The reason why he was baptized by John was to institute baptize as an entry into the Messianic Kingdom.

How do you know the reason why Christ wasn't baptized at birth? He was circumcised on the proper day. Then why isn't circumcision required for salvation? The reason why he was baptized by John was to institute baptize as an entry into the Messianic Kingdom.


The reason Christ was baptized by John was to suffer it as fulfillment of surrendering to do the Will of God in righteousness

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer [it to be so] now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

Circumcision was the covenant of blood OT, and we today are circumcised of Christ

Col 2:9 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ

Baptism was not ordained until John the Baptist was sent by God as the great prophet calling to the people to come be baptism. (John was Christ's cousin only 6 months older the Christ at his birth)

Luke 7:29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.


Why does the church baptize babies? Do you feel they do it because of the change from circumcision and so baptism replaced it? I don't, Because circumcision still take place by the heart of worship and faith in Christ.

Help me understand why Christ, the Messianic Lord of the Kingdom of God, would need to 'surrender to do the Will of God'.

The reason for Christ's baptism was to fulfill the Old Testament law and prophesy; as He said, “I have come not to destroy, but to fulfill the law". Paraphrasing St. Chrysostom, it's here we see the reasons for John indulgence. It's here and during Christ's passion do we see the doors to the Church open, the veil rent, and the Holy of Holies exposed to man. Offering Himself as the manna of life, Christ eclisped the renewal baptism that merely renovated Jew's soul, transforming Baptism to the rebirth of a new spirit of Christian soul. “Not until then, assuredly, were either the heavens opened, nor did the Spirit make His approach. Because henceforth He leads us away from the old to the new polity, both opening to us the gates on high, and sending down His Spirit from thence to call us to our country there; and not merely to call us, but also with the greatest mark of dignity. For He has not made us angels and archangels, but He has caused us to become sons of God, and beloved, and so He draws us on towards that portion of ours.” (St. Chrysostom, Homilies on Matthew, Homily 12 - my emphasis) It's in this verse of Matthew that we are “born again”. Unless a man Baptism, “he has not salvation … For when the Saviour, in redeeming the world by His Cross, was pierced in the side, He shed forth blood and water; that men, living in times of peace, might be baptized in water, and, in times of persecution, in their own blood. (Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 3:10). Christ instituted Baptism so that we will become the adopted sons of God in a personal call to a real salvation in an eternal life.

JoeT

I agree that God is involved in every valid baptism but also is the hand of man and it must be done as Jesus instructed in the name of the Father and the Son and The Holy Spirit. And with water.
Also that an entire household can be baptized as has been done many times over the ages. That's mom, dad and the kids.
That is what I believe and the reason is that the bible tells me so.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Help me understand why Christ, the Messianic Lord of the Kingdom of God, would need to 'surrender to do the Will of God'.

JoeT

Joe,

What I believe is that Our Father in Heaven sent HIS begotten Son.(the soul of who Christ was). And Christ Jesus was born of blood and water. The blood of man that walked this earth was born of HIS mother Mary, and the spiritual body that He was was born of water the Holy Spirit. As a flesh man, Christ walked the same path that we are to walk doing the Will of the Father. As the Son of God given to die for our sin, Christ was raised to sits on the right hand of the Father.

Acts 2:32-33 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.


For us to follow Christ

Matthew 20:3 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

May God reveal the spirtual body of awareness

John 7:38-39 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

We had no hope of the Holy Spirit until Christ gave up the Spirit on the cross from His flesh body.

1 Corinthains 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Understand that is how by the baptism of the Holy Spirit, that our Inward Bodies can be renewed daily.

Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man

2 Corinthians 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man

May the Spirit rest within ~in Christ

You must ynderstand that Jesus answer to Nicodemus was to the question of being born a second time. Nicodemus had ask how that could be. Jesus response had nothing to do with baptism. Born of the water (natural birth) born of the spirit (second birth). I went to seminary and was taught that it referred to baptism but when yopu put it in proper context as to the question being answered, it is an entirely different matter. Is baptism important? Yes, but to use this passage as proof is to take it out of context.

I'd like to respond to something said by SNDBAY. It was the statement "The blood of man that walked this earth was born of HIS mother Mary...". It is a well known fact that the childnever carries the blood of the mother but always the blood of thwe Father. This was one of the reasons a Virgin birth was essential. The flesh was from Mary but the blood was the blood of the Father (God, Himself). So the blood that was shed for the sins of mankind was north human blood but Divine.

I'd like to respond to something said by SNDBAY. It was the statement "The blood of man that walked this earth was born of HIS mother Mary...". It is a well known fact that the childnever carries the blood of the mother but always the blood of thwe Father. This was one of the reasons a Virgin birth was essential. The flesh was from Mary but the blood was the blood of the Father (God, Himself). So the blood that was shed for the sins of mankind was noth human blood but Divine.

I don't think it is biologically correct to say that the blood of a child is derived from the father. I would suggest that both flesh and blood of the child comes from the mother. The father contributes DNA which triggers embryonic growth.

What we can say however, is that if believing in the Trinity we become obliged to hold Mary Immaculate as imperative to Christianity (beyond papal decree). The Holy Trinity is God the Father, God the son, and God the Holy Spirit; three Persons in a perfect unity as one essence of God. Christ is One Person with two natures perfectly joined, God/Man. Christ is God (uncreated) born of woman, i.e. man. Consequently, Christ is wholly God and wholly man, God/man. The prophecies of the Old Testament tell of God's plan that the Messiah is God (uncreated) born of a virgin woman (creature). Thus, the only way He can be wholly God, and perfectly a whole man, is to be born of woman who is the new Eve before her fall – sinless, i.e. the Immaculate Mary. Therefore we can view Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant. Deny the Blessed Virgin Mary as Immaculate is to deny Christ as either God or man and fails to acknowledge Him as Theandros. Consequently, a sublime faith brings us to the improbable; a woman with child who is the perfect union of both God and man, Mary literally full of grace.

JoeT

Where do we read that baptism is a "symbol" and is something not to be taken literally? We are baptized because Jesus commanded it (Matt. 28:19), and after his death, disciples and apostles practiced this very thing. If baptism were nothing but a "higher level" of belief, as it seems some would have us believe- then why is there ALWAYS a distinction made between BELIEVING and BEING BAPTIZED? (Acts 18:8, etc.)Even though that argument alone could hold it's own- Acts 8:35-39 clarifies everything for reader, and leaves no room for error. I believe God knew beforehand, (being the all knowing God that He is),. that confusion might eventually occur as to what "baptism" really is. (as seems to be the case today) Therefore He graciously provided for us the account of the Ethiopian being baptized. And we read that he received Jesus in his heart and became symbolically baptized... I think not. Sorry for the sarcasm-- but look at this step by step process of baptism taking place in Acts 8. You will find after reading the account that there is no denying what took place on this occasion. Therefore, what we find and read in Acts 8 provides the Christian with a reference point for what we should do today. There is a physical action taking place. It is FULL immersion under water. (as he came up out of the water vs. 39) Now scripture like Romans 6 gives us some clarification as to why God thought it appropriate to use the physical act of baptism as an agent unto salvation, as does 1 Peter 3:21. It makes sense. The action of baptism represents Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, NOT a symbol representing a symbol.