I was meeting with my small group the other night and the discussion turned to grace or the law. My argument is found in MT 5:17-19 where Jesus is speaking and says that he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it.
Another person cited Galations3:11 and Ga3:23-25 which seems to indicate that the we are no longer bound under the Law.
What say you?

We are no longer bound by the law other than the 'law' of love one another as I have loved you which the 10 commandments covers.

There is the law of do not eat pork, do not wear mixed fabric-(ex: 60% cotton 40% rayon-), do not travel more than x miles on the Sabbath, etc...

I was meeting with my small group the other night and the discussion turned to grace or the law. My argument is found in MT 5:17-19 where Jesus is speaking and says that he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it.
Another person cited Galations3:11 and Ga3:23-25 which seems to indicate that the we are no longer bound under the Law.
What say you?


From what I understand we, as Gentiles, should have the Law written on our hearts. The law is what made man guilty of sin by causing him to see "sin" according to God's measurement of a "right standing" with Him. Also, we can not do away with the Law or the Old Testament's teachings since there are things that must first be fulfilled. (Luke 24:44 He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.")

Jesus would often refer to the Old Testament when asked questions about what he thought. When He was asked by someone what they must do to inherit eternal life, Jesus replied by asking the man, what does the Law of Moses say.

Also, when He was asked what the greatest commandment was, He once again quoted scripture from the Old Testament Law.

The Law forced man to recognize "sin" . Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.(20) Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. (21) But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. Romans 3:27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. (28)
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

Here Paul is writing this message after Jesus had already returned to Heaven. We are not to do away with the Law but keep it.
Romans 3:31 - Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Also, I think this verse sums it up. (John 1:17 - For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.)

The Law condemns us as sinners, Christ was and is the "answer" to our sin problem. They go hand-n-hand. Hope this was not confusing! Rita

I was meeting with my small group the other night and the discussion turned to grace or the law. My argument is found in MT 5:17-19 where Jesus is speaking and says that he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it.
Another person cited Galations3:11 and Ga3:23-25 which seems to indicate that the we are no longer bound under the Law.
What say you?

Donn -

This is clearly an interest of yours because I have heard you mention this before. With that in mind, I am personally eager to understand this statement of Christ better. I hope to be able to answer this in greater detail over the next few days. Allow me to pose a few questions to stir the question up a little more.

First off, how I would try to answer this question is by observing the context in which Jesus made this statement. Who was his audience? Why did he make this statement? Were people thinking that his teaching was so radical that it appeared he was trying to destroy the Old Testament?

Secondly, what did Jesus mean when he said that he came to fulfill the law and not to abolish it? We are quick to see that he didn't abolish it but what is meant by fulfill it?

Thirdly, donn, the apparent issue before you if you have concluded that the law is still in effect, is that all of the law is in effect. That means if your neighbor blasphemes God you are to stone him. If you were to catch someone working on the Sabbath, you are to stone him. Some people prefer to pick which laws are observable now but the law was given as one entire body, to be observed by the nation of Israel in its entirety... not just the laws concerning foods and clothing, but the moral laws like stoning people guilty of breaking the laws.

I'm sympathetic to your question so don't think that I am trying to make you feel bad about posting it. I personally do not think that the law is in effect for Gentiles at all. I do think that the law is in effect for the Jews but I would want to clarify why I think that it is and in what sense it is.

But why don't you provide some additional comments relating to what I have posted here if you don't mind. I will continue to research this and come back.

Thanks, donn.

Guess I did not make myself clear in my original post. I am strictly talking about the law of Moses or the ten commandments All other laws seem to me to have been made by man to subdue man. But then again I could be wrong. I am still a babe in the Lord. A mere mortal who sins every day. But under grace I have forgiveness for my sins.

The Bible says Moses laws is now summed up by Love one another and put God first.
If you look at each one of the 10 commandments it is clear that if you love one another and put God first there is no way you can break any one of them

Gal. is talking about the do's and don'ts laws that we have mentioned. I do believe God made those laws as well because people back then didn't have the knowledge of food poisoning and how diseases are spread. God also gave them as a significance of the importance of purity like not mixing fabrics.

What say I?
As I understand the passage that follows we ARE to obey the Law of the 10 Commandments and it is by the grace of God that we are forgiven when we sin and fail in we are repentant and ask for forgiveness.
Matthew 5: 17. "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill.
18. "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished.
19. "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20. "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.
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It IS the whole passage that needs to be understood not just the first part of it.
:)Peace and kindness,:)
Fred

Guess I did not make myself clear in my original post. I am strictly talking about the law of Moses or the ten commandments All other laws seem to me to have been made by man to subdue man. But then again i could be wrong. I am still a babe in the Lord. A mere mortal who sins every day. But under grace I have forgiveness for my sins.

Hey again, Donn. I'm a little unclear about your clarification. To avoid confusion, let's assume we are only talking about the Law of Moses (which included the 10 commandments). The Law of Moses is a very extensive series of laws that prescribe how Israel was to live: their personal lives in relationship to one another, their religious life as it related to the temple, etc. The entire body of laws is better known as the Law of Moses. Included in that law are prescribed ways to sacrifice, laws about morality and what to do when someone has broken them, etc.

Donn, when Jesus said that he did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it, he meant the Law of Moses. As I asked in my earlier post, what did Jesus mean by fulfill? My take is that the law had built into it a certain amount of obsolescence. For example, the sacrifices and the priestly system are described in Hebrews as being the shadow of the things to come. But now that the embodiment of this sacrificial and priestly system has been fulfilled in Christ (since he is both the sacrifice for sin and the great high priest), there is no longer a need to go on sacrificing.

As I look at the context of Matthew 5, a few things come to mind as I consider what Jesus said. He has just finished speaking of the Beatitudes. He then moves to talking about being Salt and Light. When he finishes talking about not abolishing the law but fulfilling it, he goes on to say "For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." What I think Jesus is doing is in this section is making a point that the Pharisees have had a very minimal view of the Old Testament law. Their practice of observing the commandments amounted to what Jesus calls a "relaxing of the commandments." They made it "easy" to be a religious person because their vision of righteousness was attainable. But the Commandments of God—rightly understood—forced people to see that real goodness and righteousness was so much more difficult to practice because we are morally broken people. That is why Jesus contrasts the teachings of the Pharisees with true righteousness, because they had really confused the real righteousness of God with their own teaching. And if you were to observe their teaching, you would be "righteous." But Jesus says to the crowd that if their righteousness did not surpass that of the Pharisees, they will never enter the kingdom of God. The righteousness Jesus was talking about was an authentic righteousness; one that truly feared God and kept his law out of a respect and admiration for God—and kept the law not to obtain a righteousness of his own but out of his commitment to follow the Lord.

I still haven't even addressed what abolish meant but this is just some of my thoughts so far.

. I personally do not think that the law is in effect for Gentiles at all. I do think that the law is in effect for the Jews but I would want to clarify why I think that it is and in what sense it is.
.

Jakester,

This is am important issue. I trust the Gentiles who are Ham's lineage, and his son Canaan, were the nations of Egypt that had difference ordinances that God was aware of according to (Lev 18:3)But I also trust what God said about making the Gentile clean and we are not to call them unclean. It was such an important fact about "man" in Acts 10:28..and not about food being clean.

The meaning and facts concerning what are ordinances, statutes, law, and the commandments should be defined. I trust, if everyone were taught the individual meaning, they might look at what is meant in scripture pertaining to law in a sightly different way.

The ordinances of the altar were changed by the blood of Christ.( refer: Eze 43:18) (refer: Col 2:14 )

If the meaning was established and understood, I trust what Hebrews 9:9-10 is saying about what was would be better recognized as a major difference to what was and is today refer: 9what was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Hebrews 9:11-12 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].

And my belief in law, is that the LAW of Faith is what we are to accept and boast in joy of heart. (Roman 3:27)(Romans 3:28)What was the law of sin (Lev 7:37) brings us to Christ... But if someone wants to say they are a sinner and not justified in Christ then they are a transgresseth, who is under the law of sin, and not in Christ. (1 John 3:4)

Gal3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

The only time you have left the schoolmaster of the law, is when you are begotten again in Christ Begotten in HIS image of righteousness which was the likeness of Holy Spirit dwells in us.

No longer begotten of man... It is my understanding that Christ came so that we can follow HIM and be begotten again, being born again of the spirit ](Gal 4:33), unto a new man (Col 3:10). The newness of life we are dead in Christ by baptism, thus buried and able to raise has HE did in the glory of the Father (Romans 6:4)

I was meeting with my small group the other night and the discussion turned to grace or the law. My argument is found in MT 5:17-19 where Jesus is speaking and says that he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it.

Absolutely true Jesus did fulfil the law. Just as He and John fulfil all righteousness in baptism.
According to what is written it is now our turn to fulfil not lust of the flesh but put on Christ Jesus in righteousness. (Gal5:7)

Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.




Another person cited Galations3:11 and Ga3:23-25 which seems to indicate that the we are no longer bound under the Law.


Those no longer under the law of sin "if" they are walking in the spirit of Christ. (Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. )

That does not mean the law of sin is no longer a schoolmaster to others, because they have the law to bring them unto Christ.




What say you?

~in Christ we have the Law of Faith as children of God

Worthyness of Christ to set us free from sin, and wash us clean of sin. (do you believe or hold stedfast to "Faith in Christ"

Eph 4:4-7 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

THIS has turned into a very interesting discussion with questions and interesting answers.
I'm following it much paritcularly in wonder about what others think about the sacraments established by Jesus Christ.
Sacrament = something set aside for a specific holy purpose.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I was meeting with my small group the other night and the discussion turned to grace or the law. My argument is found in MT 5:17-19 where Jesus is speaking and says that he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it.
Another person cited Galations3:11 and Ga3:23-25 which seems to indicate that the we are no longer bound under the Law.
What say you?

Many hold that as each Covenant is proclaimed by God, the older Covenant ended; its sometimes referred to as dispensationalism. To list a few, there is an Edenic, Antediluvian, Civil Government, and Patriarchal promises or covenants in Genesis. The most recognized is the Mosaic Law which leads us to the New Covenant. Some dispensationalist catalog as many as 8 dispensations.

But, Christ proclaims he didn't come to destroy the law or the law givers (Cf. Matthew 5: 17-19). How is this explained? Pope Pius XII suggested “ by the death of our Redeemer, the New Testament took the place of the Old Law which had been abolished; then the Law of Christ together with its mysteries, enactments, institutions, and sacred rites was ratified for the whole world in the blood of Jesus Christ." (Mystici Corporis Christi, Pope Pius XII, 29) The Pope says that 'the law' is replaced by the New Testament.


His Holiness Benedict XVI takes up this very issue in his book, “Jesus of Nazareth.” He looks closer at what Pope Pius XII wrote, more particularly what wasn't said. What's not addressed here is the Old Covenant is abolished or replaced; Pope Pius XII refers only to the “Old Law.”

When giving the sermon on mount, Christ interjected a one letter word that immediately raised the eyebrows of the Jews. He used the word I in conjunction with the Law and the Prophets. “Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled. He therefore that shall break one of these least commandments, and shall so teach men shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But he that shall do and teach, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matt 5:17-19) But, the last I checked neither heaven nor earth has passed. That's because Christ didn't have any intention of terminating the Old Covenant nor the Law (at least not in the way dispensationalist think of it). To hold otherwise would throw the very next verse into a shambles by telling the Pharisees that they will never see the “Kingdom of Heaven.”

Any Rabbi worth his salt would never interject the word “I” in the same breath with the Law. To do so was sacrilege. Christ talked with “authority” causing alarm. (Cf. Matt 7:28, Mark 1:22, Luke 4:3.2) “The “I” in his message, which gives everything a new direction… consist[ing] of following Jesus.” (Pope Benedict XVI, Jesus of Nazareth, pp.107-114). In every discourse with the Pharisees regarding the law we stand before the “I” of Jesus.

Pope Benedict teaches that the Law of Moses is made of two basic codes: casuistic law and apodictic law. Casuistic law is built on legal precedent and includes such things as freeing slaves, injuries inflicted on man or beasts, restitution for theft etc. Those codes that were casuistic were subject to criticism on ethical grounds and were intended to change during as rules typically change in historical settings. On the other hand, the apodictic codes found in the Law of Moses are Divine and as such are immutable. Apodictic law should be the rule by which casuistic laws are judged.


It's here that Pope Benedict makes the salient point: Moses' Law and the fundamental permanency of the Law are connected. “The fundamental norm in the Torah, on which everything depends, is insistence upon faith in the one God (YHWH): He alone may be worshiped. But now, as the Prophets develop the Torah, responsibility for the poor, widows, and orphans gradually ascends to the same level as the exclusive worship of the one God. It fuses with the image of God, defining it very specifically. The social commandments are theological commandments, and the theological commandments have a social character – Love of God and love of neighbor are inseparable, and love of neighbor, understood in this context as recognition of God's immediate presence in the poor and weak, receives a very practical definition here. “All of this is essential if we are to understand the Sermon on the Mount correctly. Within the Torah itself, and subsequently in the dialogue between the Law and the Prophets, we already see the contrast between changeable casuistic law, which shapes the social structure of the given time, and the practical norms constantly have to be measured, developed, and corrected. “ (Ibid, pp.125-126)


Pope Benedict continues saying that there is no precedence in Christ's abolishment of the caustic code, but as the Messiah he adds to the Torah providing “social orderings with their fundamental criteria” of the New Testament. The radical movement that Christ made was to remove that element of the law which was casuistic and relegate it to the realm of right reasoning. (Ibid, pp.125-126)


Thus we don't find a radical on the Mount or a liberal rationalist on the Mount, rather we find an interpreter of the Torah perfecting the Law; “I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill” So, it was the “I” in Christ that perfected the Law replacing it with the Lamb of God and the New Testament. So, there is no discontinuity in Divine Covenants, no dispensation, no stop and start; but rather the law is no longer written in a book, but in the heart. The tenets are still there, but are obeyed as a good wife obeys her husband, from the heart.


JoeT

So, there is no discontinuity in Divine Covenants, no dispensation, no stop and start;but rather the law is no longer written in a book, but in the heart. The tenets are still there, but are obeyed as a good wife obeys her husband, from the heart.
JoeT

Refer: Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


If one takes what is written in scripture, and applies the knowledge that is given by the Word that was made flesh, and we then hear the Word of God/hearing Christ, then their heart has followed Christ, and they have not followed man known in himself.

Hear the Word of God = Christ

Romans 3:19-20 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin

Romans 3:23-24 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

We are the lost sheep that Christ came to save and justify. When we believe in HIM (One Lord) and follow HIS calling of salvation (One Faith) to do as the Holy Spirit guides us to do (One Baptism). We are then begotten again, not of man but as a child of God in Christ Jesus (1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead)

So boast in the joy to be righteous..and being justified not by law, or by works of man, but boasted in faith of Christ (the law of faith) as in the glory of God the Father who sent HIS begotten Son the Grace of God.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Refer: Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Yes we establish the law, the same law, in the heart.

It's the distinction between the Covenant and the law contained within the covenant. God's Covenant is immutable; the law on the other hand is mutable. That's why each of your citations refers to THE LAW not to the Covenant itself.

'Covenant' can be construed as laws but normally its used to refer to a body of laws. Lets take an example like subdivision covenants. Such covenants form a relationship between the developer who established the covenants and the homeowner who buys a lot in the subdivision. Furthermore, these same subdivision covenants also forms reciprocatory relation among the neighbors in a cooperative relationship for living and prospering in the subdivision. A similar relationship is formed between God and man in the Covenants of Moses do they not? Did Christ come to destroy these, or as He said fulfill them?

The Old Testament Covenants holds this same nuance in meaning. Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, in his book “Many religions, one covenant” holds that “The relationship is therefore completely asymmetrical, because God, for the creature, is and remains the “wholly Other”. The covenant is not a two-sided contract but a gift, a creative act of God's Love.” God's act of love adds yet another dimension to 'covenant'. God's covenant becomes more than law, more than reciprocity, more than a spiritual love for “here God, the King, receives nothing from man; but in giving him law, he gives him the path of life.” This Holly ordinance becomes far more than direction, it brings a bridal love and a patristic relationship. So the Covenant of the Old Testament isn't 'simply' a set of laws it's a loving living, real live relationship (a.k.a. Covenant) between the immutable God and a mutable man.

Throughout the New and Old Testaments we find that the 'Law' while somewhat vague most always refers to those ordinances given by Moses and the Prophets. Any long married couple knows that that early in the relationship there are rules by which each spouse must relate to the other. (I'd like to stop and tell “knot raising” stories here, but Mrs. T is looking!). It goes something like, “don't mess with my side of the closet, I don't care if it smells like something is dead in there”; or “stay out of my Kitchen or you'll be embossed with this 'no. 10' printed on the backside of my frying pan!” I think you get the gist. Years down the road these rules are no longer written or even verbalized, they can be communicated with 'THE LOOK'. I don't think I need to explain 'THE LOOK.' Years later still, no rules are necessary, none whatsoever, you 'know' what your spouse wants, needs, or desires. And it's at this stage, you start finishing each other sentences, even in the privacy of the home – essentially becoming ONE. The point being that the rules, laws or ordinances found in marriage are same types as those found in the Covenants. Some are Divine, some are prophetic and some are mere preferences all aimed at the good of society.

When the laws are no longer applicable, or needed, and they continue to be enforced they become burdensome, oppressive, and are no longer focused toward the good of the community. It's these laws Christ perfected, they still exist, and they simply don't need to be enumerated for the good of the community. And as Matthew 5 tells us Christ came to perfect the LAW fulfilling every jot.


JoeT

Yes we establish the law, the same law, in the heart.

When the laws are no longer applicable, or needed, and they continue to be enforced they become burdensome, oppressive, and are no longer focused toward the good of the community.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Gal 3:24-25 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.




It’s these laws Christ perfected, they still exist, and they simply don’t need to be enumerated for the good of the community. And as Matthew 5 tells us Christ came to perfect the LAW fulfilling every jot.
JoeT

Hebrews 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

The law has always been perfect according to scripture, yet the law made no human perfect. Christ came to justify us where the law could not. In the law of Faith, we can rejoice!

Hebrew 10:9-10 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

I was meeting with my small group the other night and the discussion turned to grace or the law. My argument is found in MT 5:17-19 where Jesus is speaking and says that he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it.
Another person cited Galations3:11 and Ga3:23-25 which seems to indicate that the we are no longer bound under the Law.
What say you?

Babe in the woods here too :)

I think of it like this: there is the law, and if the law is broken, then there is justice.

We know the law[s], and we know we break them [ we are sinners ], and our punishment as sinnners is Hell, an eternity away from God.

God knows this, and He knows that none can follow the law 100% of the time, and therefore we all are to be punished, but Jesus Christ "fulfilled" the demands of the law [ righteousness with God ] by dying and rising for our sins.

Galatians reminds us of this. We are not bound by the law that damns us, because we rely on the Grace of God.

Before we come to God we try to be "good" and follow the law to the "t." But none is THAT righteous :eek:

After God's grace, I follow the law because I want to please God, to respect God, it helps me love others. :)





G&P

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Which is precisely my point, why then would Christ continue to teach the Law if in fact he was the end of the Mosaic Law.


Gal 3:24-25 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Again you make my point. The Law is taught by the masters. A good student takes it to heart. The Mosaic Law after it was perfected by Christ, now resides in the heart of the faithful.


Hebrews 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

You’re reading my mind:

For the law brought nothing to perfection: but a bringing in of a better hope, by which we draw nigh to God. And inasmuch as it is not without an oath (for the others indeed were made priests without an oath: But this with an oath, by him that said unto him: The Lord hath sworn and he will not repent: Thou art a priest for ever). By so much is Jesus made a surety of a better testament. And the others indeed were made many priests, because by reason of death they were not suffered to continue: (Heb 7:19-22)

You do see it don’t you; the law of the Prophets can only bring hope and hope resides in the heart - but the Law remains nonetheless. The Law of the Prophets resides in the heart, like the bride we obey out of love for God - not because there is an ordinance.


The law has always been perfect according to scripture, yet the law made no human perfect. Christ came to justify us where the law could not. In the law of Faith, we can rejoice!

Yes the law has always been perfect “according to scripture,” but not according to men. Christ came to fulfill the Law, did you not read the verse?

JoeT

JoeT,
Thanks much for that.
Now I understand it much better.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Excellent, and very helpful, posts, JoeT. I second arcura's "Thanks much for that".

Yes the law has always been perfect “according to scripture,” but not according to men. Christ came to fulfill the Law, did you not read the verse?

JoeT

Joe what I acknowledge is that Christ fulfil baptism, And He fulfil the law.
Do we baptize today? YES
Do we acknowledge the law? YES
Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


Both were shown by Christ to be followed and done. One difference is the law did not justify us, so the better hope was Christ because faith in HIS body and blood does justify us. What was the ordinances of the law offered both gifts and sacrifices, that were done in a remembrance of sins every year by the priest.

However the ordinances of the altar were changed by the blood of Christ. ( refer: Eze 43:18) (refer: Col 2:14 ) Christ set us free from the curse, Christ washed us clean once and for all. Our souls are placed in HIS hands as Christ is the ONE LORD of (Eph 4:5) 1 Peter 2:25 For you were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls

Christ changed the ordinances that were done because of the curse of Adam, and the conscience of evil
Hebrews 9:9-10 what was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Baptism fulfil by Christ, now is the removal of evil conscience. ONE BAPTISM of (Eph 4:5)
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.


One Faith of (Eph 4:5) Matthew 28:18-19 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


Romans 3:26-27 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Unless each individual holds stedfast ~in CHRIST by ONE LORD ONE BAPTISM ONE FAITH, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all ... Then each individual remains under the schoolmaster of the law of sin..

Joe what I acknowledge is that Christ fulfil baptism, And He fulfil the law.
Do we baptize today? YES
Do we acknowledge the law? YES
Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Both were shown by Christ to be followed and done. One difference is the law did not justify us, so the better hope was Christ because faith in HIS body and blood does justify us. What was the ordinances of the law offered both gifts and sacrifices, that were done in a remembrance of sins every year by the priest.

However the ordinances of the altar were changed by the blood of Christ. ( refer: Eze 43:18) (refer: Col 2:14 ) Christ set us free from the curse, Christ washed us clean once and for all. Our souls are placed in HIS hands as Christ is the ONE LORD of (Eph 4:5) 1 Peter 2:25 For you were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls

Christ changed the ordinances that were done because of the curse of Adam, and the conscience of evil
Hebrews 9:9-10 what was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Baptism fulfil by Christ, now is the removal of evil conscience. ONE BAPTISM of (Eph 4:5)
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.


One Faith of (Eph 4:5) Matthew 28:18-19 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


Romans 3:26-27 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Unless each individual holds stedfast ~in CHRIST by ONE LORD ONE BAPTISM ONE FAITH, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all ... Then each individual remains under the schoolmaster of the law of sin..

Right at the moment I can't show how each of your scriptural references are either taken out of context or wrongly interpreted but let me address Romans 3:31; maybe this willl help you see the point.

Without the Magisterium of the Church you've failed to see Paul's quintessential point. This verse proves that “THE LAW” continues and rightly resides in the heart, even more so than some of the verses I offered previously. Remember too not ONE jot shall pass till heaven and earth pass, (Matt 5:17)

St. Chrysostom seems shed the best light on Romans 3:31. The purpose of the law is to make man righteous. But, a law held externally, that is done simply out of rote, habit, or fear has no power to make man righteous. We can burn all the flesh in the land, wash our hands from minute to minute till they're raw, or burn incense until every man, women, and child has inflamed sinuses with little effect of making us holy. This was what Christ was telling the Pharisees, simply following one of these LAWS isn't redemption. However, faith can do just that, the law is the effect of faith. Once faith takes hold, it establishes the LAW; it establishes it in the heart. “Faith is not opposed to the Law,” rather the law is 'perfected'. What Christ said he came to do in Matthew.

… For here he shows that the faith, so far from doing any disparagement to the Law, even assists it, as it on the other hand paved the way for the faith. For as the Law itself before bore witness to it (for he says, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets), so here this establishes that, now that it is unnerved. And how did it establish? He would say. What was the object of the Law and what the scope of all its enactments? Why, to make man righteous. But this it had no power to do. For all, it says, have sinned: but faith when it came accomplished it. For when a man is once a believer, he is straightway justified. The intention then of the Law it did establish, and what all its enactments aim after, this has it brought to a consummation. Consequently it has not disannulled, but perfected it. Here then three points he has demonstrated; first, that without the Law it is possible to be justified; next, that this the Law could not effect; and, that faith is not opposed to the Law. For since the chief cause of perplexity to the Jews was this, that the faith seemed to be in opposition to it, he shows more than the Jew wishes, that so far from being contrary, it is even in close alliance and co&#246;peration with it, which was what they especially longed to hear proved.( Source: CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 7 on Romans (Chrysostom) (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/210207.htm))

But most injurious to scriptures is your conclusions that, ”Unless each individual holds stedfast ~in CHRIST by ONE LORD ONE BAPTISM ONE FAITH, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all... Then each individual remains under the schoolmaster of the law of sin.. ” Yes we believe in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, but to suggest that law is sin does Christ an injustice; because he came to fulfill (to make complete, or to perfect) the LAW. But, what you've said is that Christ perfects sin! Do away with THE LAW, and you've done away with Christ, his sacrifice, and our redemption through him. THE LAW looks to the authority of THE LAW GIVER, so too does our faith. Thus Paul rightly says, “Do we then, destroy the law through faith? God forbid! But we establish the law.”

JoeT

but to suggest that law is sin does Christ an injustice; because he came to fulfill (to make complete, or to perfect) the LAW.

The result of my conclusions is written in the Word of God=Christ=Holy Spirit has refer:
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law
Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

So if one is a sinner, he has been told this by the law. If he continues to sin, the law continues to tell him this.



But, what you've said is that Christ perfects sin!

No I did not... I have said Christ washed us clean of sin. (Christ has begotten us again.. refer 1 Peter 1:3)

I am saying as scripture tells us the law of sin gives us knowledge of sin refer: Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
The Schoolmaster... Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.



When ~in Christ, Gal:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Romans 8:1-2 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are ~in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Christ has made it possible for the law to fulfil our righteousness and to have Christ dwell within us.

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The result of my conclusions is written in the Word of God=Christ=Holy Spirit has refer:
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law
Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

So if one is a sinner, he has been told this by the law. If he continues to sin, the law continues to tell him this.



No I did not... I have said Christ washed us clean of sin. (Christ has begotten us again.. refer 1 Peter 1:3)

I am saying as scripture tells us the law of sin gives us knowledge of sin refer: Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
The Schoolmaster... Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.



When ~in Christ, Gal:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Romans 8:1-2 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are ~in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Christ has made it possible for the law to fulfil our righteousness and to have Christ dwell within us.

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

So then when asked, as the OP asked, are we “no longer bound under the Law,” you would agree to the answer; we are still bound under the Law, as it were, bound with the chains of love for God?


JoeT

So then when asked, as the OP asked, are we “no longer bound under the Law,” you would agree to the answer; we are still bound under the Law, as it were, with the chains of love for God?
JoeT



Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Romans 6:9 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Joe, when is a woman no longer bound to her husband in marriage?

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Gal 3:23-25 But before the faith came, we were kept under the law shut up, unto that faith which was to be revealed. Wherefore the law was our pedagogue in Christ: that we might be justified by faith. But after the faith is come, we are no longer under a pedagogue.

Given the security of the commandments we were ‘kept’ under the Law. St. Chrysostom likens being kept as the walls of a fortress form the ‘KEEP’, keeping us comfortable to preserve the Jew for Faith. So, the law forms right reasoning as a tutor forms the mind of the student of physics. The physics teacher enumerates, laws from Newton, Copernicus, Einstein, etc. to students who are bound to their desks, they reside in the classroom as opposed to being in the word. But, now – on graduation day – we come to the realization that our faith is to be operated in the world. This doesn’t mean that the laws of Newton or Einstien no longer work – what goes up continues after gradation to come down (this is especially true of egos). Similarly, the student in Christ graduates receiving faith learns from the law to operate that faith in the real world . What goes up with faith comes down with salvation. Source: CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 3 on Galatians (Chrysostom) (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/23103.htm)

Hey – it just occurred to me, since I’m gaining mass, maybe with the Protestant new physics, I can conclude I’m lighter!! Wow, taking your advice I can do away with those nasty diets and get lighter, you think?

St. Chrysostom renders the verse this way, “But now that faith has come which leads to perfect manhood we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.”


Romans 6:9 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Being free of sin doesn’t mean we can be free of Divine LAW. An astronaut in space is free of gravity, but not the laws of gravity; he continues to orbit around a celestial body.


1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
And how does this affect THE LAW?


Joe, when is a woman no longer bound to her husband in marriage?

Until death. Or, when she says, ‘get out of my space’ or, ‘leave me alone’ or, 'mow the lawn'. Whichever causes your death first.

JoeT

Gal 3:23-25 But before the faith came, we were kept under the law shut up, unto that faith which was to be revealed. Wherefore the law was our pedagogue in Christ: that we might be justified by faith. But after the faith is come, we are no longer under a pedagogue.

This scripture clearly establishes the Law in Christ or Law of Faith that comes by One LORD, ONE Faith, One Baptism
Gal 3:23-24-25 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. KJV



St. Chrysostom renders the verse this way, “But now that faith has come which leads to perfect manhood we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.”

Scripture say we are born again incorruptible by the Word of God which is Christ refer:
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

We have by One Baptism, (which is done in confession of Faith) put on Christ refer:
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.



Being free of sin doesn't mean we can be free of Divine LAW. An astronaut in space is free of gravity, but not the laws of gravity; he continues to orbit around a celestial body.

Free of the curse of sin, wash clean of all sin, buried in Christ, and Christ will not dwell in sin. Refer: Romans 8:10 And "if "Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.



Until death.


Exactly bound until death.. Just like we are bound to the law of sin until we are baptized. Refer: Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Baptism is done once a person does confess faith in Jesus Christ Refer: (1 Peter 3:21)

One LORD, One FAITH, One BAPTISM.. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

~in Christ


*************

1 Peter 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Gal 3:23-24-25 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. KJV

The Law Moses cannot save for all men sin and are incapable of being perfect in the law, “ but faith when it came accomplished it… The intention then of the Law it did establish, … it has not disannulled, but perfected it. Here then three points he has demonstrated; first, that without the Law it is possible to be justified; next, that this the Law could not effect; and, that faith is not opposed to the Law.”

One thing I’ve learned about Scriptures is that all scripture must be in harmony with itself and that Tradition must be in harmony with scripture and scripture must be in harmony with itself. That is to say is that God is not schizophrenic. He doesn’t tell you one thing and me something else.

Do away with the Law what do we do with the biblical Jew, the Jew in Israel – they are still around you know? Paul tells us about the glory of the sons of Abraham (the Jew). Absent the Law they become derelict and God becomes a deserter? So, “Who are Israelites: to whom belongeth the adoption as of children and the glory and the testament and the giving of the law and the service of God and the promises: Whose are the fathers and of whom is Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all things, God blessed for ever. Amen. Not as though the word of God hath miscarried. For all are not Israelites that are of Israel.” (Rom 9:4-6) Lose the Covenants of Noah and man is submerged in the last count, water down the covenant of Noah and attenuate God?

But now in Christ Jesus, you, who some time were afar off, are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and breaking down the middle wall of partition, the enmities in his flesh: 15 Making void the law of commandments contained in decrees: that he might make the two in himself into one new man, making peace, Eph

I say then: Have they so stumbled, that they should fall? God forbid! But by their offence salvation is come to the Gentiles, that they may be emulous of them. Rom 11:11

With your rendition of a dead law what do you make of the apparent contradictions in Paul’s epistle to the Romans? Failing to understand the primary thrust of Paul’s message to the Roman’s we fail to see a binding externalization of the Law termed Judaizing. Given the grace of faith, we see a Law that can be internalized, placed in the heart, called Christianity. Noah

Kill the Law, and you can’t be born again,


Exactly bound until death.. Just like we are bound to the law of sin until we are baptized. Refer: Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

But, not exactly, especially if you’re referring to Romans 7: 1-4

"Know you not, brethren (for I speak to them that know the law) that the law hath dominion over a man as long as it liveth? 2 For the woman that hath an husband, whilst her husband liveth is bound to the law. But if her husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3 Therefore, whilst her husband liveth, she shall be called an adulteress, if she be with another man: but if her husband be dead, she is delivered from the law of her husband: so that she is not an adulteress, if she be with another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also are become dead to the law, by the body of Christ: that you may belong to another, who is risen again from the dead that we may bring forth fruit to God."

Paul considers the un-baptized Jew as being “married” to the Mosaic Law and is ‘bound’ to it for life. The only way to escape the former ‘binding of the Law’ is to be resurrected into the body of Christ. A far different meaning from your rendition. The Law lives. We have Christ’s own words, which can’t be contorted, they’re plain, and simple, “Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets.” God rules! Through the law of the Prophets.

But Pope Paul VI sums it best:

“Thus the Church of Christ acknowledges that, according to God's saving design, the beginnings of her faith and her election are found already among the Patriarchs, Moses and the prophets. She professes that all who believes in Christ-Abraham's sons according to faith are included in the same Patriarch's call, and likewise that the salvation of the Church is mysteriously foreshadowed by the chosen people's exodus from the land of bondage. The Church, therefore, cannot forget that she received the revelation of the Old Testament through the people with whom God in His inexpressible mercy concluded the Ancient Covenant. Nor can she forget that she draws sustenance from the root of that well-cultivated olive tree onto which have been grafted the wild shoots, the Gentiles. Indeed, the Church believes that by His cross Christ, Our Peace, reconciled Jews and Gentiles, making both one in Himself.

The Church keeps ever in mind the words of the Apostle about his kinsmen: "theirs is the sonship and the glory and the covenants and the law and the worship and the promises; theirs are the fathers and from them is the Christ according to the flesh" (Rom. 9:4-5), the Son of the Virgin Mary. She also recalls that the Apostles, the Church's main-stay and pillars, as well as most of the early disciples who proclaimed Christ's Gospel to the world, sprang from the Jewish people. “Pope Paul VI, NOSTRA AETATE, OCTOBER 28, 1965

JoeT

Did Jesus Christ establish any new Laws??
I think He did such as "suffer the little children to come unto me and FORBID THEM NOT"
I think that there are others such as Chrsitian Baptism and the Holy Eucharist including "Love one another as I have loved you."
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

Did Jesus Christ establish any new Laws???
I think He did such as "suffer the little children to come unto me and FORBID THEM NOT"
I think that there are others such as Chrsitian Baptism and the Holy Eucharist including "Love one another as I have loved you."
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

How about "34 A new commandment I give unto you: That you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another." (John 13) ? Sounds command like to me?

JoeT

Thanks Joe,
So do those I mentioned sound like laws or orders to me.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Do away with the Law what do we do with the biblical Jew, the Jew in Israel – they are still around you know?


Never did I say, do away with the Law.. Those who do not hold faith/One Faith in Christ are bound to the law, those who do not confess faith in Christ/One Lord, and those who are not baptized/One baptism.

Jer 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.


death to the body and sin comes by Law of Faith which is One LORD One Faith, and One Baptism ..We become circumsized of the heart, a seal of the righteousness of the faith..
Isa 51:7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.





With your rendition of a dead law what do you make of the apparent contradictions in Paul's epistle to the Romans?

Joe, it is not a dead law.. I never said dead is the law...

Whether a person is bound to the law, is whether the body is dead to sin, buried in Christ. Once we are baptized our body of flesh is buried and dead in Christ, we have a good conscience toward God.




if you're referring to Romans 7: 1-4
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also are become dead to the law, by the body of Christ: that you may belong to another, who is risen again from the dead that we may bring forth fruit to God."

This is exactly what I have said...
Look at your refer of dead to the law by my same refer.. It meaning is not that the law is dead but that we can be dead to the law by being ~in Christ .


What differs from what we believe is the body being dead to sin. I am dead to sin, I live to be all God created me to be, and I walk in the spirit of life. It is a confessed liberty of choice because it is what Christ redeems and delivers to us. My conscience is in doing God's will, and following Christ. And I can do this with HIS hand of power and authority over me. No longer bound to the law of sin, but the law of faith in Christ the spirit of life

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Thanks Joe,
So do those I mentioned sound like laws or orders to me.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

This is the challenge the Judaizers were up against. Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) (http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm) Most all of these are found in our Old Testament, in the Pentateuch. I think it’s interesting given the topic here. In fact the entire site is a gold mind of different Jewish customs.

To answer your question, yes these should be held as commandments though it is very difficult at times. But, don’t forget, the first, “to Love God” seems to hold the most weight.

JoeT

JoeT,
Yes, I do believe that to love God does carry the most weight of all the commandments.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

JoeT,
Yes, I do believe that to love God does carry the most weight of all the commandments.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred, a circumsized heart, that is a seal of the righteousness in faith, does hold love in the grace of God

John 1:16 And of HIS fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

HIS Own Purpose and Grace

2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness(Genesis 1:26)

An image of Righteousness

`in Christ

sndbay,
I praise God for the grace of God he has given us out of His infinite and perfect love and mercy.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I believe the Apostle Paul was crystal clear on the subject. The body of Christ is NO longer under the Law of Moses. That does NOT mean that the principles of the Law are null and void. We can learn from them but we are no longer under them. The whole purpose for the law is to show us just how fallen of creatures we are. NO ONE other than the Lord Jesus could keep it.

I am actually quite amazed at the number of Christians who believe that we are under the law of Moses. I thought this was basic Christianity 101 here. IN fact I would even go so far as to say that the law and grace do NOT mix... it causes great confusion we you mix them up. Now, do I mean you can commit adultry... no! Murder? NO! Sin is sin. But as far as keeping the sabbath... I do NOT! I am free to eat pork, etc. There is lots in the law of moses... not just the 10 commandments.

We are under the law of the Ten XCommandments
That is what I believe.
Fred

Fred,

Do you keep the sabbath? The body of Christ are NOT under the 10 commandments. They are an excellent guideline but we are actually called to a higher standard. It is not only a sin to commit adultry but we find under grace that even lusting after someone in your heart is the same as adultry. We live under grace and should we break a commandment such a lying... we have an advocate with the Father... we confess it and move on. No animal sacrifrice is necessary. :)

classyT,
Jesus says the we must obey the commandments,
I believe He meant that.
Fred

Review: Hebrew 10:26-27 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

This is saying that wilful sin is an insult to God, because Christ set you free from the bondage of sin. (Do not forget that Christ purged us from sin, Do not count HIM unworthy to purge us from sin)

2 Peter 1:9-10 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall

sndbay,
What you posted is true.
But...
It does not change the fact that Jesus tells us the we must obey the Ten Commandments, plus the 2 Great Commandments which covers them all.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

sndbay,
What you posted is true.
But....
It does not change the fact that Jesus tells us the we must obey the Ten Commandments, plus the 2 Great Commandments which covers them all.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred, I have posted many time on this thread what scripture tells us of the law. And I will say it again, we are not justified by the law. DO NOT make void the word of God by saying Christ changed the law.. Christ did not change it. The law is the schoolmaster that brings individual unto Christ. It teaches how to be righteousness, and how to walk as Christ walked. We are to follow HIS footsteps, by walking as HE walked.

Romans 3:23-24 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

However we must establish the law? YES YES YES
Refer:

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


Hear the Word of God = Christ Those individuals that consider themselves sinner, and do sin, are told by the law that they have committed sin. They are under the law as sinners of the law. REFER:

Romans 3:19-20 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin

Those who are called and have answered the calling, are those individual that walk in the spirit. BEGOTTEN AGAIN.. They have been baptized, buried and dead in Christ. The body is then dead to sin, they have put on Christ. They live to be all God created them to be in HIS likeness. A conscience that is good towards doing the will of God. They have HIS hand of power over them which dwells in righteousness to led them.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

No bondage to sin, set free in liberty of love to do the will of God as HIS servant would be in godliness.

Remember this is the new covenant

Hebrew 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them

The promise to us

Hebrews 10:17-18 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more
Offering for sin.

However when we answer to this liberty of grace with a circumcised heart.

Hebrews 10:19-20 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh

Confessed to follow One Lord in Christ as the shepherd and Bishop of our souls

Hebrews 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God

Let us hold stedfast in truth, in ONE Faith

Hebrew 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

The One Baptism that can wash us and gift us with the good conscience toward God and bury us with Christ, putting on Christ to dwell in us. Dead to sin!

Because it is written: those that are of works of sin (do evil, do insult God) and under the curse of those sins (live in darkness), are there because they did not continue in all things that are written in the law. (Law of Faith + Law of sin)

Gal 3:10-11 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Before Faith comes, before confessed love of Christ in One Lord, before baptism is established by the individual confess faith in Christ, and does accomplished the helping hand of God REFER:

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin

Our minds are to obey the law of Faith, and our body is to obey the law of sin. Keeping us in godliness and walking in the spirit of life. That is why God writes it into our hearts and minds, Remember this is the new covenant!

450donn,

You are both right.

In Mt. 5 Jesus is teaching the Law. After all, He was "born under the Law"

Gal 4:4-5
4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5 to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.
NIV

The Kingdom of Grace was not established until Jesus fulfilled the Law on the cross when He said, "It is finished". At that time the Law was completely fulfilled by Him , in contrast to Adam and all his descendants except the "second Adam" Who was born of God.

The Law which was given on Mt. Sinai was given to show sin and never to be construed as a way of salvation... unless , of course, a person kept every part perfectly, without fail, as Jesus told the disciples in Mt. 5 :20
20 "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. "
NIV

The Law was meant to bring death to all who would claim to be righteous enough to please God. If you look up the place where God gave the Law, it was just after the people said something to Moses to the effect of "Just tell us what God wants us to do, and we'll do it" .
The Commandments were the only laws written/engraven on stone. It's ministry was death; it brought condemnation.
2 Co 3:7-11
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone , came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
NIV



We are now dead to the Law. That is, it can't condemn those who have died and risen in Christ. It is still holy. It still shows the will of God. But we, who walk by the Spirit of God should not allow it to condemn us:
Ro 8:1-4
8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
NIV



I have found for myself that it seems easier to live under the Law than live according to the Spirit. The Law deals with "outward" things, acts of goodness that we can boast about at least to ourselves. Walking by the Spirit takes close and constant contact with God all day long, every day. I believe this is why most who seek to be in the Kingdom of God try to sneak the Law back into their religion:
Gal 3:1-5
3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4 Have you suffered so much for nothing — if it really was for nothing? 5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
NIV

The law shows us we are all sinners, so we run to Jesus the saver.

Maggie 3

sndbay,
I agree and with Maggie 3.
We are justified by grace but we are still expected to obey the law as best we can
Peace and kindness,
Fred

My minister father always like to remind us that the Law is an SOS (Shows Our Sin) and the Gospel is another SOS (Shows Our Savior).

Wondergirl,
You father is a wise man.
Fred

sndbay,
I agree and with Maggie 3.
We are justified by grace but we are still expected to obey the law as best we can
Peace and kindness,
Fred

To serve the Lord is to obey HIM and do HIS will..

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin

The law shows us we are all sinners, so we run to Jesus the saver.

Maggie 3

Scripture confirms this Maggie

Romans 3:19-20 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin

so

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Thank you sndbay for showing us the scriptures.

Blessings, Maggie 3

sndbay
Right you are again.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

sndbay
Right you are again.
Peace and kindness,
Fred



Thank you sndbay for showing us the scriptures.

Blessings, Maggie 3

in Christ is where the truth is found. It is HIS Word I offer for full assurance, and in praise of HIS glory.


~ in the light of HIS path Peace and Love to you both

sndbay,
Very good!
Fred

I resurrected this thread. Ha ha.

The Apostle Paul calls the law that was written on stones ( HINT: the 10 commandments were written on stone) the ministry of death. Did you get that? The ministry of DEATH! Because that is all it CAN produce. He also says clearly Christians are not under the law AND that the STRENGTH of sin is the Law. My goodness, that is a HUGE statement. Paul would be run out of some of our Churches today with such a radical statement.

We also read that Paul wrote that where sin abounded, GRACE much MORE aboundS ( present tense). Now, does that mean we can sin up a storm and grace will cover it. Yeah! BUT... Paul wasn't finished... he also wrote... God forbid we live like that because it isn't Grace living. He told us that sin would NOT have dominion over us because we are NOT under the law but under Grace. Why doesn't sin have dominion over us? Because we are following the law? NOOOO! Because we are under GRACE.

Paul was clear. If we continue to sin, sin, sin after we are saved it is because we are putting ourselves back UNDER the law. We are trying to get righteousness by being good and by doing right. However we KNOW this doesn't work, it never worked. The law was given to show us just how pathetic we really ARE before a Holy God. BUT if one is enjoying and believing daily, he is under the GRACE of God then right believing will bring about right living. And we won't be able to take credit for any of it. It is the gift of righteousness freely given to us because of the cross, because of HIS wonderful grace. We are called believers... let's start believing!

It is time Christians understood the difference between the Law, which demands righteousness and Grace which supplies righteousness to man.

One last time... the STRENGTH of sin is the LAW!! This is huge and Paul preached it 2000 years ago. Believing right produces right living! When are we going to get this truth. I'm just NOW starting to understand...

What does it mean when we say Jesus fulfilled the Law? Well, the law is about awareness of sin and finding forgiveness. When Jesus died and rose, he completely paid the price for sin that the sacrifices of the Law foreshadowed. There's no more need for the sacrificial system, and no more need to be wondering if every sin has been covered by a sacrifice. Thus, both the purpose and the price of the Law have been fulfilled. This is why we are no longer "under" the Law. We don't need to fear the Law's curse, because grace abounds. Jesus has fulfilled the Law; hence, it has no more effect. Putting ourselves back under the Law after experiencing the fullness of God's grace is a bit like being cured of smallpox and then re-injecting ourselves with it because we miss the fever keeping us warm.