I have many friends who are gay and have not chosen to be that way. I always thought God gave us differences so that we could look past them and accept each other for who we are and not worry about differences or faults. I know it says in the Bible that being gay is a sin, but it always says there is no greater commandment than to love your neighbor as yourself and the love God the Father with everything we are.

No, it doesn't.

When we come to Christ, we come with whatever failings and whatever sins that we have, and we take them to the cross, and it is His righteousness that is imputed to us. But just as we would not expect a person to engages in any other sin to continue in that sin unchanged, if a person is truly changed, then we should expect to see that change reflected in their life. Perhaps not immediately, but the person should start having their desires changed from those of the "old man" to those of the "newman", regardless of what sins we engaged in prior to being saved.

Rom 6:1-2
6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
NKJV

God calls us to change and we see that some in the church in Corinth were homosexuals and were changed after they received Christ.

1 Cor 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
NKJV

For your edification:

Rom 1:18-24
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
(KJV)

Lev 20:13
13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
(KJV)

Deut 23:17
17 There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.
(KJV)

IKing 14:24
24 And there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.
(KJV)

IKing 15:12
12 And he took away the sodomites out of the land, and removed all the idols that his fathers had made.
(KJV)

IKing 22:46
46 And the remnant of the sodomites, which remained in the days of his father Asa, he took out of the land.
(KJV)

II Ki 23:7
7 And he brake down the houses of the sodomites, that were by the house of the LORD, where the women wove hangings for the grove.
(KJV)

Joel 3:3
3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.
(KJV)

Matt 19:4-5
4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
(KJV)

Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
(KJV)

That's the bad news.

The good news is that Jesus saves FROM sin and those bound by perversions can be set free if they want to be.

As a Christ's student I would say the same as my teacher did say to all of us sinners.
Go and sin no more!
We are all God's beloved sons and daughters,but that does not mean that He loves our acts as well.
God's love is not the case here,but it is who do we love more,God or sin?

Yea plan and simple that's as simple as adam and eve

Here is a relevant news article that appeared this morning:

Homosexuality to Heterosexuality: Can the Transition Be Made? - Health - Israel News - Israel National News (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/132425)

There is no such thing as someone being less of a Christian. You either ARE or you aren't. If you are IN Christ how can you be Less in HIM?

The real issue is whether we die to our sinful desires. I don't struggle with homosexuality... I have my OWN sin struggles. I have had times in my Christian walk where I have been on fire for the Lord and times when I chose to live for myself and actually questioned my own salvation or Christianity. When we live to fulfill our sinful desires and we are believers this is normal. We are always in a war.

We as Christians need to come to terms with what God has to say about right and wrong. Not what the world says.. because they will tell you... 'if it feels good... do it". But God says....there is pleasure in Sin for a SEASON. Any sin has some pleasure in it or we wouldn't struggle with it.

So the answer is NO....it just makes you part of the human race. But as Adam7gur posted the Lord's standard is "go and sin No More". We need to die to our sinfull desires.

What comes to mind is that we are not to call any unclean that God has made clean. So once we answer the calling by confessed faith in Christ Jesus, we are to walk as HE walked.

Phl 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Faith in Christ set us free from the curse of law, and the curse of sin. We have been delivered and redeemed by the law of Faith in Christ.

So we are to use causion, and in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let all our requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep our hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. (Phl 4:6-7)

Our Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus stands at the door for those who seek HIM

Phl 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

It's a matter of who we follow, and when we decide to deny ourselves to follow Christ in the Law of Faith

Thank you all for your advice. It makes a lot of sense to me.

There is no such thing as someone being less of a Christian. You either ARE or you aren't. If you are IN Christ how can you be Less in HIM?



ClassyT, I trust you and Tom would agree that there are those that can be double minded? In the book of revelation it was shown how there were 7 churches IN Christ, yet less then what was pleasing to God, 5 of those churches need to repent.

Correct me if I am not on the same page with your thoughts on being less of a Christians..***************************


And that scripture tells us, each is given grace in accordance of measure of the gift of Christ (Eph 4:7)

Would this be a level difference between men in their faith? Yes

Until an individual conforms from the old man of deceit and lust into the newness of life or renewed spirit of mind, they are not yet in the fullness of Christ.

The full measure is in putting on the new man which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. (Eph 4:24)

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.

~In Christ

ClassyT, I trust you and Tom would agree that there are those that can be double minded? In the book of revelation it was shown how there were 7 churches IN Christ, yet less then what was pleasing to God, 5 of those churches need to repent.

Correct me if I am not on the same page with your thoughts on being less of a Christians..***************************

Sndbay,

I for one am not sure what you are thinking of with one being "less of a Christian". One cannot be partially saved, or have enough salvation to get halfway to heaven and be stuck. One is either saved or not saved - that is how I see it.


And that scripture tells us, each is given grace in accordance of measure of the gift of Christ (Eph 4:7)

Would this be a level difference between men in their faith? Yes

Certainly we can have differing level a of faith, but that does not relate to differing levels of salvation. It does not depend upon our faithfulness (thank goodness or I think that we would all be in trouble - myself included), but rather upon HIS faithfulness.


Until an individual conforms from the old man of deceit and lust into the newness of life or renewed spirit of mind, they are not yet in the fullness of Christ.

That is sanctification - growing to be more like Christ. That starts AFTER we are saved, so again it does not make a person more or less of a Christian, or more or less saved, just a person who is more or less mature in the faith, or more or less sanctified.

Sndbay,

One cannot be partially saved, or have enough salvation to get halfway to heaven and be stuck. One is either saved or not saved - that is how I see it.

Agree...

However the statement was being less of a christian is not possible.. The point made was not whether we can be less then saved.

This would be whether all that call themselves Christian can be saved?(We are not saying that or asking)
What is being questioned in my posting is, Can someone call themselve a Christain and be less then what is pleasing to God? I trust they can because of the level of faith. We are not to judge salvation yet we are to discern the action of occurance. (example : are the actions of homosexuality less then Christian?)



It does not depend upon our faithfulness (thank goodness or I think that we would all be in trouble - myself included), but rather upon HIS faithfulness.

We are asked to be faithful, and remain stedfast in faith of Christ Jesus. Yet we can not be puffed up one against the other, for the glory of all is in the Father. As it is written: For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. (1 Corinthians 4:2-4)

Agree...

However the statement was being less of a christian is not possible.. The point made was not whether we can be less then saved.

This would be whether all that call themselves Christian can be saved?(We are not saying that or asking)
What is being questioned in my posting is, Can someone call themselve a Christain and be less then what is pleasing to God? I trust they can because of the level of faith. We are not to judge salvation yet we are to discern the action of occurance. (example : are the actions of homosexuality less then Christian?)

Agreed.

I also want to point out that once you are saved, you cannot lose that salvation.

i also want to point out that once you are saved, you cannot lose that salvation.

Different topic - I agree that you cannot inadvertently l;ose your salvation, but you can subsequently choose to reject it.

Now you'll find out where ClassyT and I disagree ;)

Different topic - I agree that you cannot inadvertently l;ose your salvation, but you can subsequently choose to reject it.

Now you'll find out where ClassyT and I disagree ;)

Yes. There are plenty of Scriptures that warn against falling away and denying the faith, so it is possible to start well and lose out in the end.

I can supply verses, if you want to see them.

I know it says in the Bible that being gay is a sin, but it always says there is no greater commandment than to love your neighbor as yourself and the love God the Father with everything we are.Both of these statements are true. I'm not exactly sure what your real point is. But don't ever impute any of mans' sinfulness to God by saying he "gave us differences" or anything like that. God is not to blame and is not responsible for our sinfulness, whether it be sins of a sexual nature or whatever.

All of us are sinners in some parts of our life.

Who stole a ink pen today, that is still theft, who had bad thoughts about that driver who cut us off.
Who perhaps had unpure thoughts about that young girl, or guy in that skimpy outfit.

We all are sinners, but need to first admit our sin.

Well with the discussion on less saved and you are saved or you are not and all...
What Jenni said is relevant because even though we may struggle with or sins and we may even backslide and come back people do tend to say stuff like they got saved,
They lost their salvation,
They came back to the Lord.
God isn't in heaven with a pencil and eraser erasing our name and rewriting it every time we mess up. So even when we have come to Christ and we haven't gotten rid of our old ways God isn't using that eraser either.

Grr got to spread the rep nohelp :(


But finally someone gets what I was trying to say :P I didn't know how to explain it :) thanks hon!

This is kind of off topic but the Apostle Paul says we are SEALED with the Holy Spirit. Now, how are you going to get UNsealed? It ain't happening. Jesus also says he will never leave us or forsake us. Never means just that... NEVER. God cannot lie.

Yep we are finite and rationalize salvation and other things of God in our finite minds but God is way bigger and transcends our rational limitations.

Well with the discussion on less saved and you are saved or you are not and all....
What Jenni said is relevant because even though we may struggle with or sins and we may even backslide and come back people do tend to say stuff like they got saved,
they lost their salvation,
they came back to the Lord.
God isn't in heaven with a pencil and eraser erasing our name and rewriting it every time we mess up. So even when we have come to Christ and we haven't gotten rid of our old ways God isn't using that eraser either.

Scripture is clear that is is possible to walk away from (reject) salvation, but not to return.

Heb 6:4-7
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
NKJV

A person may backslide, but just backsliding does not mean that a person has ceased to be saved.

This is kinda off topic but the Apostle Paul says we are SEALED with the Holy Spirit. Now, how are ya gonna get UNsealed? it ain't happenin. Jesus also says he will never leave us or forsake us. Never means just that...NEVER. God cannot lie.

He will never leave us - but that does not mean that no one ever leaves Him.

Yes that is true and many people believe they are Christians thus saved that are not... but as far as somebody that is truly God's then their name may never have been there to be erased even though they may have thought it was.
There are at least a couple verses that do say something about the elect being deceived or lead away from the faith so yeah it can happen.

Tom,

And what happens if I walk away from the Lord and go do my own thing?. will HE leave me? He said he wouldn't. There wasn't a condition.. he said NEVER. And believe me.. if I could screw something up like my salvation... I will. I know me.

No, it does not. And folks will pull any kind of scriptures out of the Bible in an attempt to make others conform to their way of thinking, being, and doing. The Bible was not written by GOD, but by humans like you and I. GOD is real! And each of have a right to serve or believe in any way we choose!

Yeah everybody does have a right that is why he didn't make us puppets or robots but that doesn't mean what we believe IS right. There is only one truth and my goal is to figure out what is true to the best I can.
You are going to believe what you believe and so am I.

You can believe God according to your own agenda but in the end if it is wrong then you can't complain.

Tom,

and what happens if I walk away from the Lord and go do my own thing?....will HE leave me? He said he wouldn't. There wasn't a condition ..he said NEVER. and believe me..if I could screw something up like my salvation...i will. I know me.

Psalm 139 says that we can never leave the presence of God, even if we make our bed in hell. He proved that by coming to earth in the flesh to die on the cross for our sins, for those who were in rebellion against Him. So we know that He does not walk away.

But scripture is clear that those He is faithful we are not always. That is why when the covenants were make in the OT, it was not a two way covenant, man covenanting with God and God with man, but it was ONLY God who made the covenant because ONLY He is faithful - we are not.

So man can and may walk away. Will God say that we are lost if we fail - one? Twice, a hundred times? No. But what if a person completely and absolutely reject God, turns away from their salvation, wants absolutely nothing to do with God moving forward. Is that God walking away? No. Will God force Him to spend eternity with Him? Where do we find that in scripture? If God was going to force salvation on anyone, why didn't He do that right from the start?

Tom,

We have discussed this before. If someone has a relationship with the Lord Jesus, not just professes Christianity but talks to him, meditates on His word... KNOWS him how can that person say... " NAAAH.. I choose something else"? I can't wrap my mind around it. It is like me discussing stuff with you and saying... you aren't real or I don't believe that you exsist.. it makes NO sense to me.

HOWEVER having HEAD knowledge of the Lord and professing Christianity but never really receiving HIM.. oh yeah, I can see how you could walk out and choose something else.. or nothing at all because it was NEVER real.

I have many friends who are gay and have not chosen to be that way.
Have you asked your friends why they chose to be something many people hate and revile? If not, please do so. And ask they if they actually did CHOOSE to be homosexual.

At what age did you consciously choose to be heterosexual?

Tom,

We have discussed this before. If someone has a relationship with the Lord Jesus, not just professes Christianity but talks to him, meditates on His word...KNOWS him how can that person say..." NAAAH.. I choose something else"?. I can't wrap my mind around it. It is like me discussing stuff with you and saying ...you aren't real or I don't believe that you exsist..it makes NO sense to me.

I agree that it is hard to comprehend, but I also find it equally hard to comprehend why the majority of mankind rejects Him in the first place. I cannot comprehend how Peter could deny the Lord three times. I cannot comprehend many things that people do, but they do them nonetheless.

That being said, I do think that the number of times that anyone reject salvation after being saved would be very very few, but scripture says it does happen, so who am I to say that it doesn't?

No, it does not. And folks will pull any kind of scriptures out of the Bible in an attempt to make others conform to their way of thinking, being, and doing. The Bible was not written by GOD, but by humans like you and I.

There is too much evidence to the contrary to believe that.


GOD is real! And each of have a right to serve or believe in any way we choose!

Yes you do, and God has the right to dictate what you must do to be saved.

I agree that it is hard to comprehend, but I also find it equally hard to comprehend why the majority of mankind rejects Him in the first place. I cannot comprehend how Peter could deny the Lord three times. I cannot comprehend many things that people do, but they do them nonetheless.

That being said, I do think that the number of times that anyone reject salvation after being saved would be very very few, but scripture says it does happen, so who am I to say that it doesn't?

Well now Tommy boy you know if scripture SAID it.. I'd believe it. I don't think it does say it. I think you need to put it into context! The writer of Hebrews in my humble opinion was NOT talking about true Christians... only those that "tasted" "partook" how many people in our churches today are just like them? LOTS... and LOTSSS... all head knowledge.. that is my take.

Your pal,

Tess

Does being gay make you less of a christian?
I don't think anything makes you less a christian, or less ANYTHING.

God said we are ALL EQUAL IN HIS EYES. We are ALL equall sinners, we are all either christian or not. You can't be 'well, I'm 20% christian, but not 100%"

If you are not 100% christian, I don't believe you are a christian AT ALL.


There. I said my peace (or piece. How ever its suppose to be said) lets see what anyone has to say about that ;) hehe

Well now Tommy boy ya know if scripture SAID it..i'd believe it. I don't think it does say it. I think you need to put it into context! The writer of Hebrews in my humble opinion was NOT talking about true Christians...only those that "tasted" "partook" how many people in our churches today are just like them?

Just like Jesus only "tasted" death on the cross?

Heb 2:8-9
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
NKJV

Does that mean that He did not really die?

Partaking of the Holy Spirit is the same term used by peter to describe the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:4). Is Peter speaking of people who are not really saved?

Tom,

I don't know because I haven't study it out. ( about Peter's terminology and use of the word) Of course the Lord really died, he didn't stay dead though and last time I checked everyone that has died so far has stayed DEAD. ( that is their earthly bodies anyway) So in that way I could see why Paul says he 'tasted" death. These obviously are just my thoughts...

Tom,

I don't know because I haven't study it out. ( about Peter's terminology and use of the word) Of course the Lord really died, he didn't stay dead though and last time I checked everyone that has died so far has stayed DEAD. ( that is their earthly bodies anyway) So in that way I could see why Paul says he 'tasted" death. These obviously are just my thoughts....

But He was really dead and came back to life.

Just like those who taste of the Holy Spirit. Really saved and then cease to be. They tasted of the Holy Spirit just like Jesus tasted of death.

Let me add this. The word tasted is geuomai, which according to Strong's means:

a primary verb; to taste; by implication, to eat; figuratively, to experience (good or ill):

The word "partakers" referring to being partakers of the Holy Spirit is metochos which, again according to Strong's, means:

participant, i.e. (as noun) a sharer; by implication an associate:

I understand your difficulty is seeing how a person could be saved and then turn away from it. I share that difficulty. I find it more difficult to argue that scripture does not say that there are some who do leave the faith after being saved.

i dont think anything makes you less a christian, or less ANYTHING.

god said we are ALL EQUAL IN HIS EYES. we are ALL equall sinners, we are all either christian or not. you can't be 'well, im 20% christian, but not 100%"

if you are not 100% christian, i dont believe you are a christian AT ALL.


there. i said my peace (or peice. how ever its suppose to be said) lets see what anyone has to say about that ;) hehe

Scripture tells us that God is equal, and HIS way is equal for all. Everyone has the same equal way to live in Christ, in Faith of all that is written. The gospel is profitable unto godliness, and (all souls belong to God. Eze 18:4)

It is man that is not equal, nor are his ways equal.

EXAMPLE: Eze 18:25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? Are not your ways unequal?

When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die... However! Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Eze 18:29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? Are not your ways unequal?
********

When you say God does not use a pencil and eraser to what we are doing, I find HIS judgement to be upon righteousness. God certainly cares for each of us, and God does watch over us, and give us reprove and tries us. (That is HIS pencil and eraser...) The book of revelation speaks of those who will be clothed in fine linen, and it is the righteousness of acts that makes us ready as a bride for the wedding. (Revel 19:7)
Those who follow Christ are clothed in fine linen, clean and white.

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

This is kinda off topic but the Apostle Paul says we are SEALED with the Holy Spirit. Now, how are ya gonna get UNsealed? it ain't happenin.

Scripture tells us we could indeed offend the Holy Spirit, or cause sorrow where we were sealed.
Eph 4:29-30 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Scripture says that in the end times when the anti-christ comes with his flood of lies. That for the sake of the elect, this time was shorten, (because if it was not shorten), every flesh would be lost and unsaved. (Matthew 24:22- Mark 13:20)



Jesus also says he will never leave us or forsake us. Never means just that...NEVER. God cannot lie.

Christ has not made us puppets... Jesus does not forsake us... It is our own choices in life that determines tries and reprove. It is our own accountability in faith and love to do HIS will, and denying ourselves to avoid darkness. Scripture says "Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God."

Eph 6:16-17-18 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints

Scripture tells us that God is equal, and HIS way is equal for all. Everyone has the same equal way to live in Christ, in Faith of all that is written. The gospel is profitable unto godliness, and (all souls belong to God. Eze 18:4)

It is man that is not equal, nor are his ways equal.

EXAMPLE: Eze 18:25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?

When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.... However! Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Eze 18:29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
********

When you say God does not use a pencil and eraser to what we are doing, I find HIS judgement to be upon righteousness. God certainly cares for each of us, and God does watch over us, and give us reprove and tries us. (That is HIS pencil and eraser...) The book of revelation speaks of those who will be clothed in fine linen, and it is the righteousness of acts that makes us ready as a bride for the wedding. (Revel 19:7)
Those who follow Christ are clothed in fine linen, clean and white.

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


Hey sndbay :)

I'm a little confused. Do you think I was saying that we as humans are equal with god? That's not what I meant :P hehe. I agree with everythign you say here :P

I think Sndbay meant that he treats all people equal not that we are equal with God.

Sndby is saying that we can grieve God by our actions. Saying that God uses a pencil and eraser to get us doing right... I guess??


I meant pencil and eraser as he already knows if you are saved and therefore isn't erasing your name out of the book of life every time you mess up and rewriting it back in the book of life every time you repent.
Its either there or it isn't

Ahhh that makes sense

i dont think anything makes you less a christian, or less ANYTHING.

god said we are ALL EQUAL IN HIS EYES. we are ALL equall sinners, we are all either christian or not. you can't be 'well, im 20% christian, but not 100%"



Let we try to show the difference in what I mean. ( sin is sin ) does a level of degree exist in sin? NO I trust it does not. However a sinner is one hanging out on a tree, and continues in sin that is sin. Faith in Christ says we are set free from sin, set free from the curse of the law, forgiven and washed clean (no more sin). How do we arrive at being set free? (1 Peter 2:24 Who HIS own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed)

By being a Christian (a christian is faith in Christ) can there be a level of difference in this faith? Yes, as Paul spoke of babes that grow in their faith. (1 Peter 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby)

Until we as a Christian return from being sheep going their own way, to sheep that hear HIS voice, we remain as babes growing to return unto the Shepherd and Bishop of their souls.

The growth of babes leads to them suffering in the flesh that (does stop sin), and that they no longer live the rest of their time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
(1 Peter 4:2-3 )

Then being "IN CHRIST" where their heart is willing to follow. And that the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ would grant them, according to the riches of HIS glory, to be strengthened with might by HIS Spirit in their inner man. Living in the full assurance of the gospel, profit of godliness, and be filled with all the fulness of God. (Eph 3)

It is written that there is a growth in being a Christian.. example (Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat)

The milk is for babes, and in growth we can grow to the strong meat of what is written. (Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil)

Hebrew 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

So I trust we are not all 100 % Christian or at the same degree of faith, until we grow from being the sinner to being IN CHRIST. There is no pride to be shown in this growth because "all glory" is given to our Father who reveals truth. Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ

(Eph 4:13) says we can grow to the fulness of Christ in knowledge to a perfect man. (not a sinner)

Scripture tells us we could indeed offend the Holy Spirit, or cause sorrow where we were sealed.
Eph 4:29-30 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Scripture says that in the end times when the anti-christ comes with his flood of lies. That for the sake of the elect, this time was shorten, (because if it was not shorten), every flesh would be lost and unsaved. (Matthew 24:22- Mark 13:20)



Christ has not made us puppets... Jesus does not forsake us... It is our own choices in life that determines tries and reprove. It is our own accountability in faith and love to do HIS will, and denying ourselves to avoid darkness. Scripture says "Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God."

Eph 6:16-17-18 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints

Snd,

Never said we couldn't grieve the Holy Spirit... I know we can. But we are still sealed with him. Certainly the Lord didn't make us puppets but once you believe the Lord and have a relationship with him... I'm just not buying the thought that we can become lost. There is NO WAY if you really believed... no way you have a relationship. When you KNOW him how can you NOT know him. When you are placed IN HIM... how do you get place OUT of HM?

My Lord said he'd never leave me or forsake me... HE is talking to the believer there and he didn't put ANY condition on it. HE said NEVER and I am very comfortable at taking Him at his word. I won't put a condition there if he didn't.

Snd,

never said we couldn't grieve the Holy Spirit...i know we can. But we are still sealed with him. Certainly the Lord didn't make us puppets but once you believe the Lord and have a relationship with him...i'm just not buying the thought that we can become lost. There is NO WAY if you really believed.....no way you have a relationship. When you KNOW him how can you NOT know him.? When you are placed IN HIM...how do you get place OUT of HM?

my Lord said he'd never leave me or forsake me....HE is talking to the believer there and he didn't put ANY condition on it. HE said NEVER and I am very comfortable at taking Him at his word. I won't put a condition there if he didn't.

I agree with you that grieving the Holy Spirit does not mean that we have fallen away from being saved. But can one fall away from being saved?

Heb 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
NKJV

How can the persons referred to here that have fallen away, be renewed to repentance if they never had it? How can they crucify again the Son of God and put Him to shame if they were never His and never partook of the benefit of the cross?

Snd,

...i'm just not buying the thought that we can become lost. There is NO WAY if you really believed.....no way you have a relationship. When you KNOW him how can you NOT know him.? When you are placed IN HIM...how do you get place OUT of HM?

Once we believe we are, as you said, sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (Eph 1:13) I trust all can at that time, begin their faith as the grain of a mustard seed.

What is also written is that daily we fight the fight, to bare our cross in following Christ. Paul wrote that he feared evil would beguile the mind to cause corruption.

Your own journey in Christ can vary from what is possilbe for others. What is within your heart of convicion with faith, has been granted, and revealed to you by the Father.
Holding stedfast to that love and promise can only be done by the power of God. Your request that you have shown within your heart to God is what you are confessing is your trust, your faith and your love in Christ.

I believe my heart does confess in Christ a willing heart, to live and walk in HIS steps, and live in righteousness without sin. I pray that with HIS strength and HIS will to be done, I can be all He created me to be. Sincerely in Christ's name ..



my Lord said he'd never leave me or forsake me....HE is talking to the believer there and he didn't put ANY condition on it. HE said NEVER and I am very comfortable at taking Him at his word. I won't put a condition there if he didn't.

Christ won't forsake anyone... but man must not forsake HIM. The scripture you have noted goes on to say "So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me." (Hebrew 5:3-5)

Christ is our helper, and if we hear HIS voice the truth we then hear, and can follow HIM.

The hope is not to end in corruption of man as Paul feared but to Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Snd,

You are still putting a condition to what the Lord said. (I think)... if you are a REAL believer than I believe never means never. I certainly haven't always walked what I believed but he never left me. NO not ever!

Wow.. you guys don't even need our help to get off topic :D

(friendly fire, everyone.. friendly fire)

Anyway, I would have to add something to this discussion. The Bible does say to accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior and you shall be saved.

Doesn't this include active homosexuals who have accepted Him?

Tom,

UGH, you and that verse in hebrews! Well we will never come to an agreement here because I do not believe these people were true believers. They tasted, partook, were enlightened then went back to offering SACRIFCES! Now come on! Could YOU do that? NO and why? Because you believe that Jesus finished the job... they didn't believe it. That is my story and I am sticking to it! :)

wow.. you guys dont even need my help to get off topic :D

(friendly fire, everyone.. friendly fire)

Anyway, I would have to add something to this discussion. The Bible does say to accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior and you shall be saved.

Doesn't this include active homosexuals who have accepted Him?

Dr D.

It does say that and I believe it. I believe there are Christians living in all kinds of sin, including homosexuality. But I don't believe they can stay in that condition and be happy. When I am in KNOWN sin... I am MISERABLE because I am not pleasing the Lord, I am grieving the Holy Spirit... you talk about unhappy! I think of that one preacher( what is his name0? That preached against homosexuality and was having a relationship with a man on the sly.. also into drugs. Do I think he was never real? ( well it isn't really my call) but I personally think the guy is saved but when you listen to his testimony on Oprah he was living in hell because of the sin and lies and misery. AND the Bible says (in Hebrews I believe) that there is a sin unto death. Not sure I understand it totally but I don't want to get to that point.

Plus remember the guy in Corinthians who was living in known sin... Paul always recognized him as a believer in Christ too.

However there are many who would disagree with me.

You mean Paul Crouch?

Funny how he "changed his ways" and told everyone that he was living in Hell because of it all AFTER he got caught. (just sayin')

But yes, I would have to agree with you Classy. While the Book teaches us of things that please the Lord, the only real requirement for Christianity is the acceptance of Jesus Christ as your Savior, is it not?

Snd,

You are still putting a condition to what the Lord said. (I think)....if you are a REAL believer than I believe never means never. I certainly haven't always walked what I believed but he never left me. NO not ever!

I really don't feel it is a condition in what Christ promised. It is more help, guidance to overcome sin in our lives. The evil that He experience as a man in HIS walked here on earth and He overcame. Christ shows us the division of good and evil in life. He came to overcome that division, and to help us know the way. It is HIS way that will not forsake us, and the power of God over all. The rest is in HIM, and choice to take HIS rest in a real sense of the word is up to us. Christ does not forsake us, nor does HIS help and way forsake us.

It is man that chooses their own way, and can't suffer the flesh of lust to ive in righteousness that forsakes them. The seed can grow and mature in hope.

Doesn't this include active homosexuals who have accepted Him?
Even inactive ones. God comes to us where we are.

When I am in KNOWN sin...i am MISERABLE because I am not pleasing the Lord, I am grieving the Holy Spirit....you talk about unhappy!!
You/we are in "known sin" every day. There is no day that goes by where you/we do not commit sins that you/we have committed during past days. You/we even commit new ones you/we hadn't thought of before, as situations in your/our life change.

Can one be a committed Christian and turn your back on God? Of course! We have free will. Life and circumstances change. People change. What we once valued, we may give up and even throw out.

You/we are in "known sin" every day. There is no day that goes by where you/we do not commit sins that you/we have committed during past days. You/we even commit new ones you/we hadn't thought of before, as situations in your/our life change.

Can one be a committed Christian and turn your back on God? Of course! We have free will. Life and circumstances change. People change. What we once valued, we may give up and even throw out.

I stand corrected WG... I meant a habitual sin or a sin cycle. I may sin on a daily basis and NOT even recognize it as sin.. I'm taking about something I refuse to give up even though I know it is wrong.

I stand corrected WG...i meant a habitual sin or a sin cycle. I may sin on a daily basis and NOT even recognize it as sin..i'm taking about something I refuse to give up even though I know it is wrong.
Of course, that is true too -- we have our "pet sins" and refuse to give them up.

Yeah that is the distinction.
You are either sinning by doing what you want and not caring
Or you are trying to walk with God but your old ways get in the way.

If you are willfully doing the Frank Sinatra I did it may way thing then you aren't walking with God.

you mean Paul Crouch?

Funny how he "changed his ways" and told everyone that he was living in Hell because of it all AFTER he got caught. (just sayin')

But yes, I would have to agree with you Classy. While the Book teaches us of things that please the Lord, the only real requirement for Christianity is the acceptance of Jesus Christ as your Savior, is it not?

Actually I was thinking of Ted Haggart! I don't know Paul Crouch... gotta Google him. Well anyway as far as I can tell from the scriptures there is only ONE requirement for salvation and that is accepting the Lord Jesus as savior. I do believe we begin to love the things He loves and hate the things he hates. I think it is normal to want to change and have the fruits of the Spirit in your life. But there are many who believe that works is part of it... I don't.

I know that the more I leave my messed up ways *whether they are sin or just stresses that I don't need in my life the more God blesses me with little things and the more I can clearly do what I need to be doing.
Like if I am worrying about what others think or worrying about helping them with a problem when that is not what I need to be doing or letting people hold me back, or going somewhere when I felt God telling me I should be doing something else then I miss out on God's blessing because I am listening and heeding the confusion of the world.
Basically sin is missing the mark and not listening to God. Many people have God so crowded out of their life that they do not even believe it is possible to hear him direct you

Paul Crouch and a lot of other televangelists follow the prosperity and motivational teachings rather than the basics of Gods word.

1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1 John 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

yeah that is the distinction.
You are either sinning by doing what you want and not caring
or you are trying to walk with God but your old ways get in the way.

If you are willfully doing the Frank Sinatra I did it may way thing then you aren't walking with God.

Yeah well that song of ol Blue eyes has unfortunately defined my life at times... that and Robert Goulet's... I got to be me! Ha... not proud of it but it is true!

Christfollower,
So far you have received some good answers.
All of us are sinners to some extend.
They are among the crosses we must bear, work with and repent of in addition to correcting.
Does one particular sin cause a person to be less of a Christian than other sins?
Only if we will not repent of it and work to correct it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)