Recently stated here was the proposition that no one can be saved unless they believe in Jesus.

What happens to a week-old baby who dies?

Did Jesus make an exception for these? Does the baby go to hell?

Children are under the age of countability.
They can not make decisions for themselves so they go to heaven from everything we know. Jesus said to allow the children to come to him because they are innocent and their hearts have not been corrupted yet.
Children can not be held accountable because they haven't learned right from wrong to make a decision as an adult can.

Children are under the age of countability.
They can not make decisions for themselves so they go to heaven from everything we know. Jesus said to allow the children to come to him because they are innocent and their hearts have not been corrupted yet.
Children can not be held accountable because they haven't learned right from wrong to make a decision as an adult can.

Then, the Bible statement is not literal?

What Bible statement is not literal?

If you are talking about salvation by no other way but through Jesus that is referring to adults.

what Bible statement is not literal?

If you are talking about salvation by no other way but through Jesus that is referring to adults.

Where does it say that the statement is only for adults? Are children the age of 9 excluded? They're certainly not adults.

Athos,'
My personal belief is that very young children are treated very mercifully by God.
But I also believe that it is very wise to baptize infants just in case.
Baptism is a saving grace is my belief.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Athos,'
My personal belief is that very young children are treated very mercifully by God.
But I also believe that it is very wise to baptize infants just in case.
Baptism is a saving grace is my belief.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Then, in the case of children, accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior is not necessary?

Children are like gold.No matter what you do to them,baptize them in water or even in ''fire'',they will always be gold.
So in my opinion,why should I worry about children when I can do nothing more to make gold better than it is!

Children are like gold.No matter what you do to them,baptize them in water or even in ''fire'',they will always be gold.
So in my opinion,why should I worry about children when I can do nothing more to make gold better than it is!

You are agreeing, then, that the Bible statement on this issue is not to be taken literally?

Athos,
I believe Jesus said that those who are not for Him are against Him.
Since very young children have are not able to make such a choice I believe that the infinite and perfect love and mercy of God come into play in that regard.
Jesus Is the way so it is He who will decide what to do with very young children who pass this like early on.
No matter what you or I believe about that, I think that Jesus will decide His way at that time.
But because of my belief in God's love and mercy for all I believe He will deal with the very young woth love and mery.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Athos,
I believe Jesus said that those who are not for Him are against Him.
Since very young children have are not able to make such a choice I believe that the infinite and perfect love and mercy of God come into play in that regard.
Jesus Is the way so it is He who will decide what to do with very young children who pass this like early on.
No matter what you or I believe about that, I think that Jesus will decide His way at that time.
But because of my belief in God's love and mercy for all I believe He will deal with the very young woth love and mery.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Ok, then the statement of Jesus is not a literal statement? (Hard to get folks to answer the question).

If the Biblical statement that you are referring to is the belief in Jesus and how that saves us, then I say that the litteral thing about it is ''Love God and love your neighbour''.
I may say that I love God but with my actions I show no love to my neighbour.This means that I do not love God also.If I don't literally say that I love God but with my actions I do love my neighbour then I do love God!
God is fair. He judges all of us(Christians or not) according to what we know and not what we do not know.
No one can blame me for not being able to fly an aeroplane 'cause I do not know how to.
So what do children know?
They know nothing and that's why they are free of everything!
When a child comes to an age of knowing,then this is no longer a child.
Adam and Eve were innocent until they ate the fruit of knowing good and evil.After knowing they were no longer innocent.
If you mean that not only literall Christians will enjoy God's eternal happiness,I say that I believe that also!

All life comes from God alone. Nothing living and no matter at all would exist except for God starting it all.
The fact that a one week old baby dies at all is proof of original sin inherited from Adam(Romans 5:1-19)
Adams sin, which we all inherit, results in death. So we all need salvation from the judgement of that sin. And the little baby gains salvation the same way all of us that are saved do – the grace of God. Grace is not earned or deserved but bestowed upon us.
A one week old baby has no basis on which to believe or not believe and in John 3:36 the primary damning work is unbelief…”he that believes not the Son shall not see life: but the wrath of God is still upon him. In a baby's life, there is no unbelief or willful rebellion or willful acts of disobedience. Scripture always connects condemnation with works of unrighteosness-willful sin. And nowhere in the bible is anyone said to be in danger of hell merely for the guilt of the inherited Adam. Whenever scripture describes persons in hell the stress is on their willful acts of sin.
Romans 1:18 says, “for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness. A baby does not have the ability to 'hold the truth in unrighteousness and thus be subject to the wrath of God.
When David's baby born by Bathsheba died he was coincidentally one week old, yet David said, (referring to the baby) “I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”
When the Israelites came to the promised land, all except Joshua, Caleb and Moses said, “If we fight against the current occupants of the land, they will kill us.” God told Moses that from that point on everyone 20 years of age and over would wander in the desert and never see the promised land. At the end of 40 years all those that had rebelled had finally died. Since those 19 years and younger at the time were allowed to enter the promised land, this is a suggestion, not a proof, that there is an age of accountability and that the age is around 20.
Of course the question about babies and those that never heard (or even Aliens!) is often used to divert attention off the person that isn't a baby and has heard that they themselves need salvation. They are trying to find a loophole in the Law so to speak because if one says that babies that don't know Jesus are saved then it isn't true one must know Jesus to be saved. And the truth is if you're old enough to ask the question and understand it you DO need Jesus to be saved. The real question is, since you aren't a baby and you have heard, will you trust God and accept the freely offered gift of salvation, inviting the Triunity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit to indwell you and cause you to let the old you die as you become a new creature through spiritual birth? Or will you continue to strive after the illusion of being in charge of your life, the “captain” of your soul?
From the beginning, people have been given life and saved by the grace of God. BEFORE the cross, Old Testament people looked forward to a coming redeemer that would save them from their sins and practiced the rituals which were a shadow of what was to come (the substance, that is, Christ)
After the cross, we look back at what was done for us.
In either case we are all still saved by the Grace of God. In Gen 18:25 the rhetorical question is asked by Abraham, “Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?”

A baby or a small child is UNABLE to understand the Gospel. How can a child recognize he is a sinner by nature and God has sent HIS son to save him? Of course babies, small children and anyone unable to comprehend the gospel is going to be in heaven.

as a christian, I believe we should give some biblical references to our beliefs. I can think of ONE off hand and I know there are more... It is in the book of Samuel and I will give a little background so the scripture makes sense:


(David the king of Israel had a child out of wedlock with Bathsheba and because of his sin of hiding it, murdering Bathsheba's husband... God dealt with David. He told David his new baby would die. Now David prayed and prayed that the Lord wouldn't take his son, he fasted for several days but alas.. the baby died. Here is what David had to say)

David noticed that his servants were whispering among themselves and he realized the child was dead. "Is the child dead?" he asked. "Yes," they replied, "he is dead." {20} Then David got up from the ground. After he had washed, put on lotions and changed his clothes, he went into the house of the LORD and worshiped. Then he went to his own house, and at his request they served him food, and he ate. {21} His servants asked him, "Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!" {22} He answered, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, 'Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.' {23} But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.

David is in heaven and so is his child.


But here is MY issue with all of this....A LOT of people who do not want to accept that Jesus is the ONLY way to the Father will be more concerned about babies or people who have never heard the Gospel. But GOD is saying to YOU PERSONALLY....What will YOU do with Christ? Ultimately everyone will stand before the Lord and give an account of THEIR understanding and what THEY did with him. I am pretty sure NO ONE will stand before him pointing the finger saying...."well what about these people or babies."

Jesus once answered Peter who was all concerned about another disciples life and what would become of that person. Jesus said this in John 21:22:

what is that to thee? Follow thou me. ( in other words Jesus was saying... worry about YOU... Jesus is Just and righteous... He will DO what is RIGHT for He is far more compassionate, merciful, understanding than sinful man.)


I'm not suggesting we should not be concerned about others or wonder about these matters. But when it affects OUR decision to believe God and HIS PLAN of salvation... it is foolish.

Homesell,

I do think the Lord has given us examples in his word so I think the Bible is clear on the subject... there are more passages than the one I have given above. I will have to dive in and look... babies are in heaven...

Also, Loved the verse you quoted... Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

If you know our savior at all... you know that is true!

Then, in the case of children, accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior is not necessary?

Yes they can choose to accept Jesus or they can wait to but it is still important that they are brought up knowing about accepting Jesus so they have a good foundation for when they are older so that hopefully they do not stray.

OK.


In order to be saved, and permitted into heaven, you need to be FORGIVEN OF SINS. Only JESUS can do this.

NO, this does not apply to children, because children DO NOT SIN. Jesus said:

Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like an innocent child shall not enter it." (Luke 18:15-17)

I take this to mean, that children already have a place in heaven, and that place in heaven is NOT endangered until they reach the age to where they can honestly CHOOSE between RIGHT and WRONG, and KNOW THE DIFFERENCE>

On a side note, I know there are some christians who believe that man is BORN in sin.

I for one, do not believe that I serve a God so heartless that he would condemn an innocent child simply because his parents didn't have him baptised.

And, may god forgive me, if I find out, in my death, that he DOES condemn children for something that the child has no control over, me and my God will be having some WORDS. (loving words of course!)

We are not born IN sin as some explain but we are born IN a sinful nature that no matter how hard any one of us could have tried from birth on we would sin and fall short because it is in our nature to sin. We are born in a sin nature but it is a bit different than being born a sinner IN sin as if we actually committed a sin.
We aren't born like we sinned simply by being born.

What happens to a week-old baby who dies?If one of the parents is a believer, then there's no question because the scriptures say that the child is sanctified by the believing parent. Now if neither parent is a believer then that's more difficult to answer. Obviously a week-old baby is not consciously guilty of rejecting Christ, although that same week-old baby is born in sin, having inherited Adam's original sin, the same as all of us. So in that case I don't know the answer to your question.

Lol and this is where it starts to seem that a clear answer is impossible to find :)


We all believe something different. As long as we respect eachothers opinions, all is well :)

To get into the really complicated, God says he knows the spirit he put in each one of us and he knows the beginning to the end and what we will choose and do before we even do it so in not limiting God I would say that he would already know if the baby would have grown up to be a serial killer and have an evil hardened heart that rejected him.
But in general I believe babies do go to heaven.
We live in the finite and we can not comprehend the depths of Gods wisdom and why many things are the way they are.

THIS is where I stop agreeing with you nohelp :P sorry. :P no hard feelings.


If God knows all this, WHY give us a choice in the first place? Why not simply obilterate all the evil people and any who are destined to come in the future, and take all of us good people to paradise now? Why wait? Why give us the chance?

Also, if god KNOWS if we are good or bad, why do we need to ask him to forgive us. If he KNOWS we are going to be good, doesn't he already forgive us?

Because he gives us free will. According to what you are saying why even have an earth with ANY people?
The Bible says that he knows the beginning and the end. He lives in infinitely; we live in time. So he does know what we are going to say and do before we even do it. I sort of think of it like a movie that we watch over again. We already know what Mel Gibson or Nicholas Cage is going to say next since we already watched the movie. We didn't make them say what they were going to say but we already knew because we already saw it.

What about my children? I'm not a Christian, I don't believe in the bible, where are my kids going?

Are they guilt free, sin free, golden in the eyes of God, in the eyes of Christians?

I believe they would go to heaven because they are still young and not to the age of countability (and I bet they have love in their heart and not evil hatred)

I believe they would go to heaven because they are still young and not to the age of countability (and I bet they have love in their heart and not evil hatred)

They are young, and they are wonderful kids. They both believe in God, I will let them make up their own minds about the role they want God to play in their lives.

We don't go to church, because I don't believe in Church, but they have gone with their friends. We don't read the bible, because I don't believe that it's important, but they know about the stories in the bible and they know about God. I will not preach to them, it would be pointless. God is a part of their lives, and they do believe. Whatever questions they have, I will find the answer, even if it's against my beliefs.

I guess my questions is, what age are they considered accountable? Is it 18? When are we considered adults in the eyes of God? When are we no longer gold? When do we become tarnished?

altenweg, I believe that when a child, (usually around 8-12) has the UNDERSTANDING of what right and wrong is, and what sin is, and then chooses to sin, he is held accountable.

however, it also varies, because when I was 12, I was very innocent of sin, where as, these days, 12 year olds are having sex and getting drunk.

god is a very flexible god, and he takes circumstances into consideration.

What do Christians consider sin though?

My son threw a rock at a window when he was 6, he knew it was wrong, he knew he shouldn't do it, he did it anyway. Does that mean he's now accountable in God's eyes?

I don't buy it.

This is the problem I have with the bible. If it really was the book of God then wouldn't these things be clear? Instead we're left to interpret what the book means. We all know what happens when you interpret something, it becomes flawed, because man is flawed.

There is not clear writing on when a child is no longer free from sin. There is no age when we say, okay, you now know right from wrong, now you either accept God, follow his way or you're going to hell.

Is it left up to us to determine? I thought the bible told us everything, every aspect of how to live our lives and find eternity with him. This seems to be a grey area.

This same question has to be applied to more than just one-week old babies. What about the indigenous people of southern Africa?

Yes, yes.. missionaries have been sent out there to spread the Word but that wasn't always the case. There have been millions that have lived their entire life without ever having the chance to hear about Jesus Christ. They have certainly sinned but are likely better people than you or I.

Do they go to Hell?

There is a lot of "I believe this..." and "I believe that..." but the reality is that no one really knows. The "Religion" just isn't clear on this.

Everyone has taken it upon themselves to come up with an answer that suits them.. the very thing that some of you have held against others.

There is a lot of "I believe this..." and "I believe that..." but the reality is that no one really knows. The "Religion" just isn't clear on this.

Everyone has taken it upon themselves to come up with an answer that suits them.. the very thing that some of you have held against others.

WEll Dr D. I DID back my belief UP with scripture... it isn't what suits ME... it is all about what GOD has to say. Incidentally, If it was about what suited ME... we'd all go to heaven, and I'd be loaded with CASH right now on this earth.

While I appreciate the humor :) going back to the scripture you gave us.. I don't really see how that shows us anything. Sure David said "I will go to him" so we know that HE believes his child is in Heaven. But we do not know if that is true or not.

What religious parent would NOT believe their dead child was in Heaven or a better place?

Maybe God told him that his child would be in Heaven but it doesn't say that. So maybe David, too, is adjusting his beliefs to suit his needs as a human being.

WEll Dr D. I DID back my belief UP with scripture...it isn't what suits ME...it is all about what GOD has to say. Incidently, If it was about what suited ME....we'd all go to heaven, and I'd be loaded with CASH right now on this earth.

Thankfully it is up to God.

The thing that separates us is this. You wish all people would go to heaven, but you don't believe they will, because of the bible.

I believe that all good people will go to heaven, whether they believe in God or not.

As for the cash, lotto , someone's got to win, it might as well be you. ;)

Thankfully it is up to God.

The thing that seperates us is this. You wish all people would go to heaven, but you don't believe they will, because of the bible.


It is up to God - you are right.

Unfortunately, many people don't like what God has said in His word, the Bible.

It is up to God - you are right.

Unfortunately, many people don't like what God has said in His word, the Bible.

Many people see it for what it is, a book written by man.

At least you can't give me a reddie for my opinion here.

Many people see it for what it is, a book written by man.

We've been through that before. There is overwhelming evidence that it is in fact the word of God, but I guess that I would ask why, if you so dislike Christianity, do you post in the Christianity area (no answer required - rhetorical question).

We've been through that before. There is overwhelming evidence that it is in fact the word of God, but I guess that I would ask why, if you so dislike Christianity, do you post in the Christianity area (no answer required - rhetorical question).

Then why ask the question?

Trying to start another fight Tom, or merely hijacking the thread? :rolleyes:

This thread questions what the bible says, what Christians believe. Actually, it should probably be in religious discussions.

I don't hate Christianity, what I dislike is people that think their beliefs are fact without any proof whatsoever that go around telling others they're going to hell.

Now can you stop hijacking the thread and get back on topic?

Thank you.

Then why ask the question?

Trying to start another fight Tom, or merely hijacking the thread? :rolleyes:

Here we go again...



This thread questions what the bible says, what Christians believe. Actually, it should probably be in religious discussions.

There is a difference between "questioning what Christians believe", and asking for a clarification on what the Bible teaches.



I don't hate Christianity, what I dislike is people that think their beliefs are fact without any proof whatsoever that go around telling others they're going to hell.

I have seen very few people telling others that they are going to hell. I can only think of twice and both times the comment was aimed at me. Perhaps you mistake this for Christians pointing out what scripture says about those who die without Christ going to hell. There is a difference between explaining doctrine and "telling others that they are going to hell".


Now can you stop hijacking the thread and get back on topic?

More accusations, Alty?

Tom, stop hijacking the thread.

The original question is;


Recently stated here was the proposition that no one can be saved unless they believe in Jesus.

What happens to a week-old baby who dies?

Did Jesus make an exception for these? Does the baby go to hell?

Now can we get back on topic please?

Tom, stop hijacking the thread.

Stop posting attacks on others.


Now can we get back on topic please?

Please do

Once again, I will answer with the fact that we can argue ALL our lives, and still not be any closer to a real answer, nor an understanding of each other. So why do we even TRY to have these conversations?

Seriously, if people can't be polite, and accepting and understanding of other peoples opinions and beliefs on this board, STAY OUT OF IT>

once again, i will answer with the fact that we can argue ALL our lives, and still not be any closer to a real answer, nor an understanding of eachother. so why do we even TRY to have these conversations?

seriously, if people can't be polite, and accepting and understanding of other peoples opinions and beliefs on this board, STAY OUT OF IT>

Agreed that people should respect opinions of others, and be respectful and polite.

We should not insist that people "accept" the beliefs of others. That by definition would not be respecting their right to hold differing opinions.

We've been through that before. There is overwhelming evidence that it is in fact the word of God, but I guess that I would ask why, if you so dislike Christianity, do you post in the Christianity area (no answer required - rhetorical question).
"It is in fact ONE'S INTERPRETATION OF the Word of God." And anyone may post on the Christianity board.

"It is in fact ONE'S INTERPRETATION OF the Word of God." And anyone may post on the Christianity board.

1) Actually, no. I don't know if you missed what was being discussed, but it whether there is evidence for the truth of the Bible being God's word. Such evidence from from internal sources, external sources, from Christians, from non-believers, and from those opposed to Christianity. So no, it is not a matter of interpretation.

2) Second, yes, anyone may post - I was just pondering why a person who hates Christianity would want to.

1) Actually, no. I don't know if you missed what was being discussed, but it whether there is evidence for the truth of the Bible being God's word. Such evidence from from internal sources, external sources, from Christians, from non-believers, and from those opposed to Christianity. So no, it is not a matter of interpretation.
So where do those people get their information, and how?

2) I was just pondering why a person who hates Christianity would want to.
She doesn't.

So where do those people get their information, and how?

You need to study the historic record, ancient documents, speak to historians and archeologists, and to experts in the Bible.


She doesn't.

Right. :D :p

You need to study the historic record, ancient documents, speak to historians and archeologists, and to experts in the Bible.
Oh, those guys. Ok. Sure.

Right.
And you are doing what to change her mind?

Oh, those guys. Ok. Sure.

Right - experts.


And you are doing what to change her mind?

I am not trying to change her mind. I don't try to change anyone's mind. All I can do is present the facts. Whether one's mind is changed depends more upon whether they are open to the facts or not.

BTW, it appears that you are following her lead in hijacking the thread.

Shall we get back on topic?

What do Christians consider sin though?

My son threw a rock at a window when he was 6, he knew it was wrong, he knew he shouldn't do it, he did it anyway. Does that mean he's now accountable in God's eyes?

I don't buy it.

This is the problem I have with the bible. If it really was the book of God then wouldn't these things be clear? Instead we're left to interpret what the book means. We all know what happens when you interpret something, it becomes flawed, because man is flawed.

There is not clear writing on when a child is no longer free from sin. There is no age when we say, okay, you now know right from wrong, now you either accept God, follow his way or you're going to hell.

Is it left up to us to determine? I thought the bible told us everything, every aspect of how to live our lives and find eternity with him. This seems to be a grey area.

You as your son's mother,how did you feel about your son throwing a rock at a window?
Deffinetely it did not make you happy,BUT did you throw your son out of your house because he did so?Of course not!
We are humans and we have at least this kind of righteousness even though we all are twisted in our ways.Don't you think our Father has at least this amount of righteousness also?
Things that we do not see in the Bible are written in nature.Isn't nature teaching us as Paul said?
We should be careful with the Bible because many times we idolize the Word of God and God hates it!
God's Word, the Bible is Spirit and not paper and ink!

adam7gur,
Good answer.
Fred

homesell, please stop spamming the board. Thank you.

Well, I think we should welcome anyone to answer as long as they state up front they are NOT Christian. However I could be wrong.

I don't have issues with this personally. I DO have issues with Hijackers and troublemakers but I like other views. I think it is an opportunity to witness.

Well, I think we should welcome anyone to answer as long as they state up front they are NOT Christian. However I could be wrong.

I don't have issues with this personally. I DO have issues with Hijackers and troublemakers but I like other views. I think it is an opportunity to witness.

Agreed. I would personally welcome anyone of any belief, but I think that they if come to the Christianity forums, they must at least be respectful of Christians. If they come on here because they hate Christians and or Christianity and are just here to disrupt the threads, then they'd be best to go elsewhere, because those who behave in that manner are not listening to what is being said, and they impair the rights of others to engage in the discussion.

This same question has to be applied to more than just one-week old babies. What about the indigenous people of southern Africa?

Yes, yes.. missionaries have been sent out there to spread the Word but that wasn't always the case. There have been millions that have lived their entire life without ever having the chance to hear about Jesus Christ. They have certainly sinned but are likely better people than you or I.

Do they go to Hell?

Rom 1:20-21
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
(KJV)

All creation points to the Creator, and mankind has a mind that is capable of reasoning. If he will use that capability, it will lead him to God.

After all, how did Abraham come to know God? He lived in an idolaterous society, and yet he became the "father of the faithful".

I have a counter question for Athos.

Are you trying to justify your own unbelief by posing what you see as an unanswerable question?

Rom 1:20-21
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
(KJV)

All creation points to the Creator, and mankind has a mind that is capable of reasoning. If he will use that capability, it will lead him to God.

After all, how did Abraham come to know God? He lived in an idolaterous society, and yet he became the "father of the faithful".

I know many people who believe in the same God that you do based on that one line right there. However, since they don't believe in Him the same way a "Christian" does, they are damned?

Luckily Abraham lived in the time that he did... because of that, he is saved. Had he lived in today's world, he may still follow the beliefs of his ancestors that the Messiah is yet to come and would not be saved.

Same God of all creation... yet a different eternal life.


[side note]
I don't think anyone's personal beliefs should have ANYTHING to do with where or how they post. That is simply absurd.
[/side note]

Wait no there's more... I should add the anyone coming here attempting to pose something as FACT, should back that up with indisputable proof that such a thing is FACT. For example, despite what my beliefs, your beliefs, or ANYONE'S beliefs are, there simply is no PROOF that the Bible is the Word of God. To claim such a thing, discredits anything else you have to say.

Enough with the childish antics and finger pointing. Can we carry on with a mature discussion on this matter? Unfortunately, unlike other areas of this board, there is no simple answer. It requires discussion to allow people reading/responding to decide for themselves.

You as your son's mother,how did you feel about your son throwing a rock at a window?
Deffinetely it did not make you happy,BUT did you throw your son out of your house because he did so?Of course not!
We are humans and we have at least this kind of righteousness even though we all are twisted in our ways.Don't you think our Father has at least this amount of righteousness also?
Things that we do not see in the Bible are written in nature.Isn't nature teaching us as Paul said?
We should be carefull with the Bible because many times we idolize the Word of God and God hates it!
God's Word, the Bible is Spirit and not paper and ink!

Well in that case God doesn't need us to come to him, because we're all his children and no matter what we do he would never deny us the gift of heaven.

You're right. There's nothing that my son could do that would make me abandon him, even if he turned his back on me. So using your theory, all people will go to heaven, whether they are Christian or not.

I couldn't agree more. :)

John 14:1
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
(KJV)
Jesus was talking to Jews who believed in God

James 2:19
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
(KJV)

Mere belief in God is no better than the devils do.


I Jn 5:10
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
(KJV)

Gal 3:24
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
(KJV)

Study of the Law given in the OT will bring one to the knowlege of Jesus Christ as the Messiah.

There's nothing that my son could do that would make me abandon him, even if he turned his back on me. So using your theory, all people will go to heaven, whether they are Christian or not.

So, if your son was an adult, and you wanted him to move in with you, ylou'd force him to do so whether he wanted to or not?

Go never abandoned us. He came to earth in the flesh so that we could be saved from our sins, and that we would have the opportunity to spend eternity with Him. But most will reject that offer and choose to go to hell, thus condemning themselves. He makes a free offer, but does not force us against our will.

Unfortunately the minority go to heaven.

Well in that case God doesn't need us to come to him, because we're all his children and no matter what we do he would never deny us the gift of heaven.

We don't come to Him; He comes to us, after finding us like a shepherd finds the lost sheep and gently carries it back to the herd.

Unfortunately the minority go to heaven.
Yes, "unfortunately" is right. Some unfortunately think that. And I'll bet you count yourself in that "minority."

So, if your son was an adult, and you wanted him to move in with you, ylou'd force him to do so whether he wanted to or not?
That scenario doesn't make sense and does not speak to the message Altenweg is sending. The proper scenario is if the adult son wanted to move home would she reject him, the answer being no obviously. Why would want to force him to live at home?? What analogy are you trying to make with that?

John 8:43-45
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
(KJV)

Jesus was talking to men, human beings, and he most certainly did NOT consider them to be Heaven bound.

They made the wrong choice and went to Hell. Please make sure you do not do the same thing.

I'm simply pointing out that just because we are humans does not automatically mean we are children of God. See verse below.

John 1:12
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
(KJV)

We are not born sons of God, we become sons of God through grace by faith.

Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
(KJV)

(Off thread, I know, but the OP has gotten several outstanding answers so far.)

That scenario doesn't make sense and does not speak to the message Altenweg is sending. The proper scenario is if the adult son wanted to move home would she reject him, the answer being no obviously.
There's the story of the prodigal son...

Yes, "unfortunately" is right. Some unfortunately think that. And I'll bet you count yourself in that "minority."

Right the minority think that, and that is because God said it is true:

Luke 13:23-28
23 Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them, 24 Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open for us,' and He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know you, where you are from,' 26 then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.' 27 But He will say, 'I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.'
NKJV

That scenario doesn't make sense and does not speak to the message Altenweg is sending. The proper scenario is if the adult son wanted to move home would she reject him, the answer being no obviously. Why would want to force him to live at home??? What analogy are you trying to make with that?

No, it is exactly the right analogy because all men have rejected God by sinning (Rom 3:23), and God calls them to return, desires that they return and God paid the price for their sins so that the way is open for their return. Whether they do is up to them. God does not force us to come, and thus most will not come. For all to be saved would require that God force us against our will to be saved.

So, for everyone to be saved, the analogy would be that she would force her son to live with her using whatever means at her disposal if the son did not wish to.

God desires that they pay the price for their sins
Huh?

Forget the Prodigal Son story then, I guess.

Huh?

Forget the Prodigal Son story then, I guess.

Perhaps you should read the prodigal son story again. Show me where the father sent the police out to drag the son home and force him to stay home.

I missed that.

Seems to me that he decided to return.

Perhaps you should read the prodigal son story again. Show me where the father sent the police out to drag the son home and force him to stay home.

I missed that.

Seems to me that he decided to return.
No, I wasn't referring to that. My point was your comment --


God desires that they pay the price for their sins

We don't come to Him; He comes to us, after finding us like a shepherd finds the lost sheep and gently carries it back to the herd.

Then you don't agree with this passage?

Acts 15:17
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the LORD who does all these things.'
NKJV

I can't imagine this thread will live to see another day...

I stand by what my posts says

No, it is exactly the right analogy because all men have rejected God by sinning (Rom 3:23), and God calls them to return, desires that they return and God paid the price for their sins so that the way is open for their return. Whether they do is up to them. God does not force us to come, and thus most will not come. For all to be saved would require that God force us against our will to be saved.

So, for everyone to be saved, the analogy would be that she would force her son to live with her using whatever means at her disposal if the son did not wish to.

Apparently, there are at least two ways of thinking about infant baptism -- 1) God has commanded that even babies are to be baptised because He will send His Spirit to work faith in a baby's heart, and 2) people should not be baptised until they intellectually understand what baptism is.

The difference seems to limit God, that He cannot work faith in a baby's heart but must wait until it is cognitively ready.

Apparently, there are at least two ways of thinking about infant baptism -- 1) God has commanded that even babies are to be baptised because He will send His Spirit to work faith in a baby's heart,

Where do you get that God commanded that babies are to be baptised? Baby baptism is more of an aknowledgment of THEIR statement that THEY will raise the baby to follow God to the best of their ability. More like people that dedicate their baby instead of baptising.
The baby still has to get baptised for their own sign of their outward aknowledgment of God once they get to be old enough to accept God. So basically a baby being baptized is not a commandment. It is more of a ritual.
How does a baby have faith worked in its heart?

As they grow older through the years they either except or reject God so the faith is there or it isn't. Yeah God can work faith into their heart but it isn't based on whether the parents baptised the baby. Baby baptism is more for affirmation to the parents of their intent to raise the child godly.

I have never said, nor do I believe that anyone but Jesus pays the price for sins.

where do you get that God commanded that babies are to be baptised?
"Go ye therefore...baptize all nations." (Babies are part of "all nations.")


How does a baby have faith worked in its heart?
The Holy Spirit comes along and begins the process of working faith.

Hmmm, I've never been rebaptized as an adult. Am I going to hell?

Most mainstream Christian churches do infant baptisms and accept each other's baptisms, so the person doesn't have to be rebapized if a different church is joined.

Why haven't you been baptised as an adult?
The Bible says repent and be baptised. Meaning that order.
A baby can not repent so as an adult they should affirm their baby baptism.

I don't think not getting baptised sends you to hell so no I don't think that would be what would send you to hell if you were to end up there. The thief on the cross was never baptised.

why haven't you been baptised as an adult?
The Bible says repent and be baptised. Meaning that order.
A baby can not repent so as an adult they should affirm their baby baptism.
My baptism as an infant is sufficient.

why haven't you been baptised as an adult?
The Bible says repent and be baptised. Meaning that order.
A baby can not repent so as an adult they should affirm their baby baptism.


Good point.


I don't think not getting baptised sends you to hell so no I don't think that would be what would send you to hell if you were to end up there. The thief on the cross was never baptised.

Agreed. There is nothing in scripture which requires that you to be saved. We are commended to be baptized as adults, so it is an act of obedience, but there is nothing telling us that babies are to be baptized. There is nothing wrong with doing so, but it will not affect the baby's salvation, nor does it count as believer's baptism.

I agree there is nothing wrong in baptising a baby other than many people who do are following tradition that they really don't understand from a Biblical point.

Why do you say there is nothing in scripture which requires you to be saved?
It is all through the Bible.

Agreed. There is nothing in scripture which requires that you to be saved. We are commended to be baptized as adults, so it is an act of obedience, but there is nothing telling us that babies are to be baptized. There is nothing wrong with doing so, but it will not affect the baby's salvation, nor does it count as believer's baptism.
"which requires you to be saved"?

"which requires you to be saved"?

The context is baptism - nothing that requires you to be baptized to be saved.

Why do you say there is nothing in scripture which requires you to be saved?
It is all through the Bible.

Sorry I meant that requires you to be baptized to be saved.

The context is baptism - nothing that requires you to be baptized to be saved.
Good save!

I also was getting confused over who was claiming what vs claiming what they were claiming the other was stating.

I think I got it now. You both agree you have to be saved and baptism is not necessary for baby's but it is not wrong either.

I think I got it now. You both agree you have to be saved and baptism is not necessary for babys but it is not wrong either.
Babies are commanded by God to be baptized. I was born on Nov. 10th and baptized on Dec. 2nd.

I also was getting confused over who was claiming what vs claiming what they were claiming the other was stating.

I think I got it now. You both agree you have to be saved and baptism is not necessary for babys but it is not wrong either.

Where I suspect that she and I differ is on what the meaning is of a baby baptism. I do not see any significance given to it in scripture. I would therefore see it being like a dedication. I definitely do not see it being equal to adult believer's baptism.

Babies are commanded by God to be baptized.

References?

References?
Already given in this thread.

Already given in this thread.

The only one that I saw you give is:

""Go ye therefore...baptize all nations." (Babies are part of "all nations.")"

That does not command babies to be baptized, or if you assume that, it would mean that non-believers should be baptized also. Is that what you mean to say?

Yeah I would love to know the references other than the ONE she gave already.

MY Bible teaches submersion as an adult after you repent.
Baby baptism is YOUR parents professing THEIR faith NOT yours

That does not command babies to be baptized, or if you assume that, it would mean that non-believers should be baptized also. Is that what you mean to say?

Great catch!!