I was on a thread last night that I was accused of hijacking... I apologize to anyone who thought so. ANYWAY, I was speaking to people who call themselves Christians and realized I wasn't even on the same page as they were. I do NOT believe that all paths lead to God and I do NOT believe that God placed his spirit in each of us. I do NOT believe that he has written his spirit on our hearts.(.I don't know what that even means? ) I can't find any scripture to even suggests such a thing. I believe the Holy Spirit indwells each believer in Jesus Christ. I don't go by what I feel, I only go by what the word of God says. We got on the subject because someone was on the Christian board looking for God and questioned what he had been taught .

I was surprised to see that someone who calls themselves a Christian, advised the OP to read read read all different types of material from Hindu's, Muslims, wiccan... whatever! This was weird to me. When You have truly found the Living God through Jesus Christ our Lord... aren't you suppose to lead them to him through HIS word? In other words... This is Jesus Christ speaking...


I am the way

I am the truth

I am the LIFE

No one comes to the Father BUT by ME! John 14:6


That is the only Christianity I KNOW. Help me out. Do you as a Christian believe other paths.. (other than the Finished work of Christ).. leads to the Father?

I worship nature in all its glory, and therefore, I am worshipping whomever put it all here. Mother Earth, yes. You might say I worship Mother Earth.

We are all here to worship whoever we want, whichever way we feel most comfortable.

Ms tickle

I realize this is anathema to most fundamentalist Christians but, yes, all paths lead to God.

By "paths", I don't mean some of the more bizarre things like the cults that make the news every so often but other non-Christian religions and philosophies like Judaism, Taoism, Buddhism, Islam, etc. etc. all leading to God. Jesus himself, after all, was a Jew.

The Christian Old and New Testaments can be selectively cited to dispute this, but they can also be cited to support this. All depends on how one interprets. In a series of books of almost a million words written over a long period by different authors, interpretations will necessarily vary. Just consider the different ways on these pages between Catholics and Protestants, and even among Protestants.

Each path often has its own Scripture which its adherents believe as strongly as Christians believe theirs. Who can say which is more true? To simply declaim that Christianity is the only path is based on a kind of uncritical belief that is rarely examined. And, even more troubling, is the tendency to "prove" Christian Scripture by citing the Scripture itself - an irrational method comprising a logical fallacy.

This seems to be threatening to some Christians and the reason why is another question entirely.

To not feel what is right, to only follow rules read, is that what Jesus would have done? Why were we given both brains and feelings?

Absolutely not. Scripture is abundantly clear on this point.

Acts 4:10-12
10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.' 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
NKJV

John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
NKJV

And then a serious warning to those who teach otherwise:

Gal 1:6-10
6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. 10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.
NKJV

This is the only place in all scripture where a curse is repeated against anyone for anything. Clearly to suggest that there is any other gospel is considered to be an extremely serious offense by God.

Tess - first off, never apologize for what other people may think... you cannot control what other people think. If you came to hijack the thread, then shame on you ;)

It is logically possible that all paths lead to God. But the obvious question one must ask is, when Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man can come to the Father but through me", was he merely reflecting a warped desire to control people and gain followers? Or did he really convey an objective truth about reality? In other words, was he seriously warped and mistaken about his authority or did he really have the kind of authority that forced men to bow the knee to him in order to see God?

Each road (religious perspective) has its own view as to how people will get to God. Christianity has its own as well but it is not inclusive. Jesus is awfully radical if you are really paying attention to his words. He said no one can come to God but through him. Now, it's a matter of desire to accept that Jesus is the only way. But for the sake of intellectual integrity, no one can say with an objective viewpoint that Jesus is saying the same thing as Buddha, Muhammed, et al. You have to look at Jesus and say "you are wrong" or "you are right." But it takes a lot of courage to say one or the other.

This will go into many many many pages folks. Talk about anethema, this is one to a forum like this.

Tick

Absolutely not. Scripture is abundantly clear on this point.

Acts 4:10-12
10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.' 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
NKJV

John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
NKJV

And then a serious warning to those who teach otherwise:

Gal 1:6-10
6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. 10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.
NKJV

This is the only place in all scripture where a curse is repeated against anyone for anything. Clearly to suggest that there is any other gospel is considered to be an extremely serious offense by God.

This is an extremely telling response. Scripture is cited to prove Scripture - a logical no-no.

And then, in case anyone thinks otherwise, it ends in the usual "curse" - no salvation for you, my friend, if you don't toe the line.

The "curse", of course, is what frightens people who don't have the exposure or the wherewithal to examine and/or discern what is being claimed. It's sad in a way to see this kind of thing in the 21st century as though we still lived in a time where people were susceptible to things that "go bump in the night".

This is the problem with interpreting an ancient series of books written when "gods" were a dime a dozen and when gods competed against each other. "Curses" flew like raindrops.

The worst part is how the essential message of the Bible - a long progression of a people slowly coming to understand truth and goodness and behavior and, yes, love - is totally discarded in favor of a fearful threat of being accursed and damned when "right belief" is stuck in a milieu that no longer exists.

It's a shame that this good book is so badly used to instill fear into people rather than love.

This is an extremely telling response. Scripture is cited to prove Scripture - a logical no-no.

I don't know what you are trying to say there. Scripture is used to validate doctrine. There are many places where Jesus so also. Scripture is also used to clarify the meaning and understanding of scripture - Jesus did that also.

I am not sure what you are exactly claiming that I did wrong.


And then, in case anyone thinks otherwise, it ends in the usual "curse" - no salvation for you, my friend, if you don't toe the line.

So what you are saying is if you teach a false gospel, one other than given in scripture, then you are on your way to hell.

I don't know what you are trying to say there. Scripture is used to validate doctrine. There are many places where Jesus so also. Scripture is also used to clarify the meaning and understanding of scripture - Jesus did that also.

I am not sure what you are exactly claiming that I did wrong.



So what you are saying is if you teach a false gospel, one other than given in scripture, then you are on your way to hell.

Obviously, I am referring to the logical fallacy of proving something by citing the thing to be proved.

Your second comment must be a joke, right? Again obviously, I'm referring to those who say people who don't believe the way you have laid out are "accursed".

Ive always found it interesting when Christianity is taught with the fear of that "curse"... or with the promise of the "reward".

I would like to take a peak into a world where God said to his followers that they must love and obey Him and by doing so they would be eternally damned to Hell. And all the non-believers would go on to a Heaven where they would spend eternity.

The point being that they should love their God regardless of the reward/punishment. THEN, we could see who the REAL Christians are.

Obviously, I am referring to the logical fallacy of proving something by citing the thing to be proved.

I don't see that I did that.


Your second comment must be a joke, right? Again obviously, I'm referring to those who say people who don't believe the way you have laid out are "accursed".

Scripture says clearly that those who teach a different gospel are accursed.

Gal 1:6-10
6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. 10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.
NKJV

If you have an issue with that, take it up with the author.

Tess - first off, never apologize for what other people may think...you cannot control what other people think. If you came to hijack the thread, then shame on you ;)

It is logically possible that all paths lead to God. But the obvious question one must ask is, when Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man can come to the Father but through me", was he merely reflecting a warped desire to control people and gain followers? Or did he really convey an objective truth about reality? In other words, was he seriously warped and mistaken about his authority or did he really have the kind of authority that forced men to bow the knee to him in order to see God?

Each road (religious perspective) has its own view as to how people will get to God. Christianity has its own as well but it is not inclusive. Jesus is awfully radical if you are really paying attention to his words. He said no one can come to God but through him. Now, it's a matter of desire to accept that Jesus is the only way. But for the sake of intellectual integrity, no one can say with an objective viewpoint that Jesus is saying the same thing as Buddha, Muhammed, et al. You have to look at Jesus and say "you are wrong" or "you are right." But it takes a lot of courage to say one or the other.

The only problem with your thesis is that it assumes the words are those of Jesus. Is it possible they are later interpolations? Remember that the Bible, as we have it, comes no earlier than several centuries after Jesus walked the earth. By then, much had occurred in the situation of "Christians". The sect became exclusive as they gained power. Within a short time after gaining political power, they were actually executing those who didn't believe as they did. Do you think Jesus would ever have approved of that approach?

Could the Jesus who gave us the Beatitudes have excluded all those who didn't believe in him? Food for thought.

All paths lead to God only if you find the right road off the wrong path. A person can come to God via Satan worship once they realize the path is wrong and it veers them off onto the right road.

Tickle says she worships Mother Earth that is called Pantheism. Romans 1:25 says something about He gave them over to the desires of the flesh because they worshiped the Creation rather than the Creator.

People use the Jew as an example of justifying that all religions lead to God but God has a special place for Jews and you can't compare that to any false religions.

The Bible talks about how even the very elect can be deceived so how much more people that follow beliefs that are far from God.

The Bible even shows that good intentions do not get you to heaven.

The gospel is not a pick thing to our own self interests

Ive always found it interesting when Christianity is taught with the fear of that "curse"... or with the promise of the "reward".

I would like to take a peak into a world where God said to his followers that they must love and obey Him and by doing so they would be eternally damned to Hell. And all the non-believers would go on to a Heaven where they would spend eternity.

The point being that they should love their God regardless of the reward/punishment. THEN, we could see who the REAL Christians are.

I find it interesting that most people who reject Christianity do so because they disagree with what God said in His word. They believe that they are right and the Bible is wrong. Whereas Christianity believes that we should submit ourselves to God's word, and He is right.

In any case, when push comes to shove, God's word will be the final say.

Could the Jesus who gave us the Beatitudes have excluded all those who didn't believe in him? Food for thought.

That is the GOOD NEWS! He doesn't exclude ANYONE! Whosoever WILL may come! It is a choice! Food for thought.

Whereas Christianity believes that we should submit ourselves to God's word, and He is right.



That is exactly right.

That is the GOOD NEWS! He doesn't exclude ANYONE! Whosoever WILL may come! It is a choice! food for thought.

If we must come to God through Jesus, what about those who never heard of Jesus?

Scripture says clearly that those who teach a different gospel are accursed.

If you have an issue with that, take it up with the author.

Could your interpretation be wrong? Could "Scripture" be mis-translated?

When the "author" posts here, I will take it up with the author. Until then, I will take it up with you.

If we must come to God through Jesus, what about those who never heard of Jesus?

God knows their heart and if they would have served him if they knew. The Bible says that God searches the depth of our souls deeper than we even know ourselves. So I believe if the native in the deepest jungle knew deep down there was something that created him then that is all he can be accountable for.

Obviously, I am referring to the logical fallacy of proving something by citing the thing to be proved.

Your second comment must be a joke, right? Again obviously, I'm referring to those who say people who don't believe the way you have laid out are "accursed".

Hey, Athos - I'll be right back with my comments.

I find it interesting that most people who reject Christianity do so because they disagree with what God said in His word. They believe that they are right and the Bible is wrong. Whereas Christianity believes that we should submit ourselves to God's word, and He is right.

In any case, when push comes to shove, God's word will be the final say.

I believe 100% of what God said in His Word. However, I assure you, our definitions of each of those things will vary greatly.


How can today's Christian be so sure that the Bible you are reading is the same one that was written? And you can't just quote me the verse that threatens anyone to adds to it or takes away from it because that is not proving anything.

If we must come to God through Jesus, what about those who never heard of Jesus?

I don't know. I am willing to let God be God and according to the Bible He is righteous and JUST in all of His ways.

Here is an interesting verse though.. I don't claim to understand it full but I think it is appropriate.

John 1:9

(speaking of Jesus)

That was true Light which lighteth EVERY man that cometh into the world.

I believe 100% of what God said in His Word. However, I assure you, our definitions of each of those things will vary greatly.


How can today's Christian be so sure that the Bible you are reading is the same one that was written? And you can't just quote me the verse that threatens anyone to adds to it or takes away from it because that is not proving anything.

Dr D.

Ummm... if you believe 100 % then why do you have a problem with the verse that says not to add or take away?

Christianity is based on faith not on proof.

God knows their heart and if they would have served him if they knew. The Bible says that God searches the depth of our souls deeper than we even know ourselves. So I believe if the native in the deepest jungle knew deep down there was something that created him then that is all he can be accountable for.

Exactly nohelp! It is ultimately going to be about what YOU did with Christ anyway.

Dr D.

Ummm... if you believe 100 % then why do you have a problem with the verse that says not to add or take away?

Christianity is based on faith not on proof.

I have no problem with the verse. The verse states:



For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

The problem is that people use this to try and prove that the Bible is still in tact as it was originally written. However, this verse is just a warning to those that do add to it or take away from it. It has nothing to do with whether that has actually happened or not.

If we must come to God through Jesus, what about those who never heard of Jesus?

Rom 1:19-21
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
NKJV

The reality is that God condemns no one - they condemned themselves:

John 3:17-19
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
NKJV

Because all have sinned (Rom 3:23), we have all condemned ourselves and all are guilty if being sent to hell for eternity. Jesus came to die on the cross so that those who would receive His free gift might be saved and have their sins washed.

There are those who never heard and is sad and it is up to those of us who know the gospel to get the word out, but what is sadder is those who have heard the gospel, like those living in North America, including those on this board who still reject the gospel.

Could your interpretation be wrong? Could "Scripture" be mis-translated?

When the "author" posts here, I will take it up with the author. Until then, I will take it up with you.

I did not interpret it. I have a copy of the Greek check it out.

The problem is that people use this to try and prove that the Bible is still in tact as it was originally written. However, this verse is just a warning to those that do add to it or take away from it. It has nothing to do with whether that has actually happened or not.

The Bible also says that we should be able to say that we have hidden Gods word deep in our heart. It also says study to show yourself approved. I believe if you really want to know God you will keep searching and then eventually you will know deep down that you have found that peace in your heart and your life.
I believe that as much as man has tried to mess with the Bible Gods truths are there because there are things in it that no man of that time could have thought up on his own and there are things that cross reference that could not have been placed the way they were.

The Bible also says that we should be able to say that we have hidden Gods word deep in our heart. It also says study to show yourself approved. I believe if you really want to know God you will keep searching and then eventually you will know deep down that you have found that peace in your heart and your life.
I believe that as much as man has tried to mess with the Bible Gods truths are there because there are things in it that no man of that time could have thought up on his own and there are things that cross reference that could not have been placed the way they were.

I couldn't agree with you more. "if you really want to know God you will keep searching and then eventually you will know deep down that you have found that peace in your heart and your life." exactly!

God's Truths are evident regardless of the details that people argue about incessantly.

These Truths are also found in other "paths" (trying as I might to bring this full circle and back on topic) throughout the world.

The truth is that the Church had control over the Bible for how long? To assume that it was untouched and not rewritten to manipulate the population with fear seems absurd.

I couldn't agree with you more. "if you really want to know God you will keep searching and then eventually you will know deep down that you have found that peace in your heart and your life." exactly!

The Bible has everything.

2 Tim 3:14-17
14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
NKJV


These Truths are also found in other "paths" (trying as I might to bring this full circle and back on topic) throughout the world.

If that were true, God would not have condemned the other paths. The fact is that the Bible claims exclusivity, and if anyone claims that other paths are equally good, then they are denying the Bible. You cannot have it both ways.


The truth is that the Church had control over the Bible for how long? To assume that it was untouched and not rewritten to manipulate the population with fear seems absurd.

The truth is that the church never controlled it, and we have copies going back so far that we can verify that it has not been altered, more so than any other anicent work.

The only problem with your thesis is that it assumes the words are those of Jesus. Is it possible they are later interpolations? Remember that the Bible, as we have it, comes no earlier than several centuries after Jesus walked the earth. By then, much had occurred in the situation of "Christians". The sect became exclusive as they gained power. Within a short time after gaining political power, they were actually executing those who didn't believe as they did. Do you think Jesus would ever have approved of that approach?

Could the Jesus who gave us the Beatitudes have excluded all those who didn't believe in him? Food for thought.

Athos - your objections are well taken. Anything is possible, but the bible is the only source document that is used to refer to anything Jesus said. You mentioned that he is the author of the Beatitudes but how you do know he really said the things contained there? Logically, if you could argue that the other sections of the bible attributed to things he said were really false, then how do we know that the Beatitudes were attributed to Jesus? I think a lot of our disagreement relating to what we think he said or did not say stems from our own perception of reality and what makes sense according to our worldview. If our worldview is one where there is no judgment for evil and no punishment, then the sections of the bible where Jesus is credited for saying that people will die in their sins or be punished for unbelief will not be attributed to him. We can pick what we will but we have to see that our worldviews often influence what we want to see.

Now, when you refer to the sect that executed those who didn't believe, I'm assuming you are referring to the Crusades. I don't believe Jesus taught that it was right to execute those who didn't believe. He did teach that those who refused to believe in him would perish in their unbelief but that was a matter to be settled between the individual and God... not between me and the unbeliever. God said "vengeance in mine, I will repay." So, I ought to let people be free to be unbelieving or believing and worry about myself. God, in the end, will sort people out.

I hope I addressed each of your points in turn. Let me know if I missed anything.

Sincerely.

All versions of the bible were written long after Jesus passed, and for that matter, all disciples.

The bible, in any version has proven to be an exemplary source of archeological information and that is the only credence I will give it.

Tick

All versions of the bible were written long after Jesus passed, and for that matter, all disciples.

Not possible. The NT was written by disciples. It was all written within a few decades of Jesus' death and resurrection. That is well established.

Not possible. The NT was written by disciples. It was all written within a few decades of Jesus' death and resurrection. That is well established.

Sorry, don't think so, been around a long time and I don't think you are right. They can't even decode the Dead Sea Scrolls properly which is supposed to contain some of the disciples teachings. By the way, The Dead Sea Scrolls are in Toronto, Ontario this weekend !'

Are you an agnostic ?

Recent news report on the bones of St. Peter. Archeologists were finally permitted to examine bone fragments and have determined they are within the normal range that he was supposed to have passed, by carbon dating, but they really done know they are HIS remains and they can't determine that without DNA testing which is impossible to do. Any comments on that one ?

If you can't give me absolute proof the bible is first hand knowledge, then I would say you are blowing through your hat.

Tick

The Bible has everything.
You have no way of knowing this. And that is a silly thing to put your faith into as there is nothing in the Bible that states that this may be accurate.



2 Tim 3:14-17
14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
NKJV

Look at verse 16. "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God.." There were 4 more books that were put into the Bible after Timothy wrote this. And how many other books/letters were written that were NOT included in the Bible.

And WHO had the say so as to which books would be included? The Church.

You cannot say with any accuracy what all Timothy was or was not referring to with the word "Scripture".




If that were true, God would not have condemned the other paths. The fact is that the Bible claims exclusivity, and if anyone claims that other paths are equally good, then they are denying the Bible. You cannot have it both ways.

Again, this is based off the assumption that the Bible is exactly as God had intended it... unscathed by the dirty hands of man.



The truth is that the church never controlled it, and we have copies going back so far that we can verify that it has not been altered, moreso than any other anicent work.

The Bible as we know it wasn't seen until around 300 AD. That's over 200 years after the last book was written. That's a lot of time to manipulate those pages...

The only problem with your thesis is that it assumes the words are those of Jesus. Is it possible they are later interpolations? Remember that the Bible, as we have it, comes no earlier than several centuries after Jesus walked the earth. By then, much had occurred in the situation of "Christians". The sect became exclusive as they gained power. Within a short time after gaining political power, they were actually executing those who didn't believe as they did. Do you think Jesus would ever have approved of that approach?

Could the Jesus who gave us the Beatitudes have excluded all those who didn't believe in him? Food for thought.

So, your saying that Matthew was written later than AD70? Or that Mark was written after AD140/ Or that Luke was written long afterAD 60? Hummm. Please tell us where you get this information. Because my bible clearly indicates differently.

N0help4u agrees: exactly but many people want to follow a wishy washy watered down truth or their own assumptions of what they FEEL as truth

Unfortunately, that is true. However, don't you think that there are those who see and believe the actual Godly Truths.. in the same Spirit in which the Bible was written?

Unfortunately, that is true. However, don't you think that there are those who see and believe the actual Godly Truths.. in the same Spirit in which the Bible was written?


Yes that is exactly what we are trying to say. The Bible says the truth will set you free and when you have been set free YOU KNOW.

If we must come to God through Jesus, what about those who never heard of Jesus?

That is the only reason that Jesus has not returned to claim his church. He is waiting for all people on earth to be given a chance.

Yes that is exactly what we are trying to say. The Bible says the truth will set you free and when you have been set free YOU KNOW.

This is what we all are trying to say here.. the Truth WILL set you free. And when you have the Truth, you WILL know.

The Truth that runs through my veins is the same Truth that runs through yours.

... But many are deceived or do not care to have the truth.

......But many are deceived or do not care to have the truth.

"Christians" and non-Christians alike...

Yep, many sit in the pew week after week thinking they are pleasing God because they fill the pew on Sunday.

Matt 7
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 ¶ Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

There are those who never heard and is sad and it is up to those of us who know the gospel to get the word out, but what is sadder is those who have heard the gospel, like those living in North America, including those on this board who still reject the gospel.

How do you get the word out to the millions who died before Christ was born?

I did not interpret it. I have a copy of the Greek check it out.

Having a copy of "the Greek" or any other copy does NOT mean you did not interpret it.

How do you get the word out to the millions who died before Christ was born?

The millions who died before Christ were under the OLD Testament law so that doesn't apply.

The Bible has everything.


Prove it.

Prove it.

Where do you want him to start that could take pages and pages

Athos - your objections are well taken. Anything is possible, but the bible is the only source document that is used to refer to anything Jesus said. You mentioned that he is the author of the Beatitudes but how you do know he really said the things contained there? Logically, if you could argue that the other sections of the bible attributed to things he said were really false, then how do we know that the Beatitudes were attributed to Jesus? I think a lot of our disagreement relating to what we think he said or did not say stems from our own perception of reality and what makes sense according to our worldview. If our worldview is one where there is no judgment for evil and no punishment, then the sections of the bible where Jesus is credited for saying that people will die in their sins or be punished for unbelief will not be attributed to him. We can pick and choose what we will but we have to see that our worldviews often influence what we want to see.

Now, when you refer to the sect that executed those who didn't believe, I'm assuming you are referring to the Crusades. I don't believe Jesus taught that it was right to execute those who didn't believe. He did teach that those who refused to believe in him would perish in their unbelief but that was a matter to be settled between the individual and God...not between me and the unbeliever. God said "vengeance in mine, I will repay." So, I ought to let people be free to be unbelieving or believing and worry about myself. God, in the end, will sort people out.

I hope I addressed each of your points in turn. Let me know if I missed anything.

Sincerely.

I can't prove that Jesus said the Beatitudes. I never claimed to prove it. I was comparing the sense of those ideas with other ideas attributed to Jesus.

I wasn't referring to the Crusades (no one was executed during the Crusades because they were non-believers). I was referring to the time shortly after Christianity became the state religion and heresy was defined as a capital offense.

Yes, you pretty much missed my entire point.

Not possible. The NT was written by disciples. It was all written within a few decades of Jesus' death and resurrection. That is well established.

How could it possibly be "well established" when the earliest extant copies we have date from several centuries after the events?

The millions who died before Christ were under the OLD Testament law so that doesn't apply.

Huh? What is THAT supposed to mean?

It means your question isn't valid. How do you get the word out to the millions who died before Christ was born?
They did not have to believe in Jesus because they had the Old Testament law to follow.

Where do you want him to start that could take pages and pages

He made the statement. It's up to him to prove it. How he does it is his business.

So, your saying that Matthew was written later than AD70? Or that Mark was written after AD140/ Or that Luke was written long afterAD 60? Hummm. Please tell us where you get this information. Because my bible clearly indicates differently.

Exactly where does your Bible prove the dates you claimed? Do you understand that the earliest copies we have date from the 4th century?

Yeah he made the statement.
So you are saying it is up to him to prove EVERYTHING so with your statement how he does it is his business means that however he chooses to prove EVERYTHING you will be okay with because it is his business?

It means your question isn't valid. How do you get the word out to the millions who died before Christ was born?
They did not have to believe in Jesus because they had the Old Testament law to follow.

All you have done is change the premise. How did those who never heard of the Old Testament make out? Say, the millions of Chinese or American Indians or any other group that lived before Jesus?

yeah he made the statement.
So you are saying it is up to him to prove EVERYTHING so with your statement how he does it is his business means that however he chooses to prove EVERYTHING you will be okay with because it is his business?

What I am saying is pretty clear, I think. I certainly will not be OK with anything he claims because "it is his business". I don't know where you got that idea from.

Like any position, it is incumbent upon him to offer his reasons supporting his position. Then we'll take a look at what he offers. Simple as that. Don't make it unnecessarily confusing. It's pretty simple.

The Bible says that they were in a waiting place, a part of Hades, and before the resurrection Jesus set then free.

The Bible says that they were in a waiting place, a part of Hades, and before the resurrection Jesus set then free.

To begin at the beginning - this part of the thread is about proving the Bible. You cannot prove the Bible by quoting the Bible. First, it was necessary to believe in Jesus - I am the way, etc etc - remember that? Now, recognizing the impossibility of people believing in Jesus who died before Jesus, you come up with another story. Does it never end? Will you come up with something no matter what I ask?

The OP's question is not about proving the Bible. Maybe you should start your own question because your objections are taking the OP's post way off what she asked.

The OP's question is not about proving the Bible. Maybe you should start your own question because your objections are taking the OP's post way off what she asked.

They became off-thread because of the way you and yours took the thread. Don't blame me for responding to what you claimed. Maybe the fault is yours!

I am not blaming you I am simply saying that I think if you want answers it is about time we started a new thread and you are the one with the question.
Not trying to place any blame.

To begin at the beginning - this part of the thread is about proving the Bible. You cannot prove the Bible by quoting the Bible. First, it was necessary to believe in Jesus - I am the way, etc etc - remember that? Now, recognizing the impossibility of people believing in Jesus who died before Jesus, you come up with another story. Does it never end? Will you come up with something no matter what I ask?

Athos,

Those old testament saints are all covered under the blood of Christ. The sacrifices of animals just covered them. They knew NOTHING of the Lord Jesus... and yet he certainly was promised in Genesis 3.

I am not blaming you I am simply saying that I think if you want answers it is about time we started a new thread and you are the one with the question.
Not trying to place any blame.

I never had a question. I responded to the op. Look back and see. Any questions that developed were in response to statements made by others.

Athos,

Those old testament saints are all covered under the blood of Christ. The sacrifices of animals just covered them. They knew NOTHING of the Lord Jesus...and yet he certainly was promised in Genesis 3.

Again, when you make statements like that, it is the most ordinary thing in the world for one to ask - what proof do you have for that?

You started this thread about different paths, and clearly indicated that you thought they were false. Why are you surprised that someone should ask you - Why are they false? That leads to subsequent questions about YOUR claims.

And now you have spent three posts trying to defend your comments. It is off topic. Lets get back on or moderator please close it.

I never had a question. I responded to the op. Look back and see. Any questions that developed were in response to statements made by others.

Oh I thought these were questions you were wanting answered and I thought that you were basically asking Tj3 to prove everything

How could it possibly be "well established" when the earliest extant copies we have date from several centuries after the events?

How do you get the word out to the millions who died before Christ was born?

They became off-thread because of the way you and yours took the thread. Don't blame me for responding to what you claimed. Maybe the fault is yours!

Athos,

You know I tend to get heated sometimes when I am trying to make a point. I guess I did last night. I believe that no one can prove anything... and I believe it is all about faith pure and simple. I mean I think there I compelling evidence but I can't prove it. I don't think anyone can. The Bible says that without faith it is impossible to please God because anyone that comes to him must believe that he IS and is the rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. So it is all about faith.

And now you have spent three posts trying to defend your comments. It is off topic. Lets get back on or moderator please close it.

If you're referring to me, I'd be happy to get back on topic. I wasn't the one who left it.

Athos,

You know i tend to get heated sometimes when i am trying to make a point. I guess i did last nite. I believe that no one can prove anything...and I believe it is all about faith pure and simple. I mean i think there i compelling evidence but i can't prove it. I don't think anyone can. The Bible says that without faith it is impossible to please God because anyone that comes to him must believe that he IS and is the rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. so it is all about faith.

The first honest response all night (thread). Thank you.

As I have tried to make perfectly clear, I have no objection to people expressing their faith. It is when they insist it is the only truth, without a scintilla of evidence, that I simply ask for proof. When they say there is no "proof", it's just what I believe, I respect that.

The Bible says that without faith it is impossible to please God because anyone that comes to him must believe that he IS and is the rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. so it is all about faith.

Anyone that comes to Him must believe that He IS. Its all about Faith.

Unless, of course, you believe that other paths may also lead to God... in which case, you are accursed.

This is where Faith ends and Religion begins.

Religion and the Church is what brought about these teaching of fear. It has taken away from the Truths that God has been showing/teaching us who choose to listen since before even the Bible.

Again, when you make statements like that, it is the most ordinary thing in the world for one to ask - what proof do you have for that?

You started this thread about different paths, and clearly indicated that you thought they were false. Why are you surprised that someone should ask you - Why are they false? That leads to subsequent questions about YOUR claims.

I can't prove a thing... but I do believe the Bible and that is where I get my info. I debated putting the question on a religious discussion but truth is... I think I wanted to hear from fellow Christians because I think we are sooo divided. I know other faiths believe there are other paths to God. What I am troubled by... is what my fellow Christians are saying. I fear I am offending people again which is NOT my motive.

You are right in a sense. The only truth is what we believe in our hearts as the infallible word of God but then that is not the truth of non believers.

You are right in a sense. the only truth is what we believe in our hearts as the infallible word of God but then that is not the truth of non believers.

You got it!

And non-believers to other religions are Christians.

Anyone that comes to Him must believe that He IS. Its all about Faith.

Unless, of course, you believe that other paths may also lead to God... in which case, you are accursed.

This is where Faith ends and Religion begins.

Religion and the Church is what brought about these teaching of fear. It has taken away from the Truths that God has been showing/teaching us who choose to listen since before even the Bible.

Dr. D,

For me it isn't about fear. It is all about trust and faith. Geesh, if I didn't have the Lord to rely on everyday about everything... I would be in fear.

I'm confused by you. I'm not sure of your point. Do you believe all paths evidentually lead to God?

Non believers to other religions are Christians
And the question Classy is asking is why do many Christians believe that non believers that do not believe in Christ are going to heaven when they do not believe in Jesus or follow his teachings.

Non believers to other religions are Christians
and the question Classy is asking is why do many Christians believe that non believers that do not believe in Christ are going to heaven when they do not believe in Jesus or follow his teachings.

THAT is it. I don't understand why Christians think there is another way to the Father other that the Lord Jesus.

And to answer Classy's original question, there is only one path to GOD. No one can honestly say that satan worship will lead to God can they? Or how about those that worship money? (those that seek wealth over everything else) Or the earth?(earth firsters) Or the anything that does not directly speak to God.
It takes an act of faith to believe in God. Without it there is nothing for man to believe in except materialism, or themselves.

THAT is it. I don't understand why Christians think there is another way to the Father other that the Lord Jesus.

It's very simple. Many Christians have a more profound understanding of Christianity than Fundamentalists. It's really as simple as that. They don't limit God to their own beliefs. Good night, all.

They do not limit God to their own beliefs.
Quite the contrary. God isn't about anything goes as many Christians seem to believe.

I was surprised to see that someone who calls themself a Christian, advised the OP to read read read all different types of material from Hindu's, Muslims, wiccan...whatever!
That is NOT what I said. Go back and reread what I said.

It's very simple. Many Christians have a more profound understanding of Christianity than Fundamentalists. It's really as simple as that. They don't limit God to their own beliefs. Good night, all.

LOL... k. thanks Athos. I don't limit God... He can do anything he wants.. but he cannont LIE. Have a good night.

That is NOT what I said. Go back and reread what I said.

WG.

I don't have my contacts in. But I will put my glasses on and go back and read it.What did I say that was wrong. Didn't you say read read read and talk to all types of people of different faiths? I didn't quote you but that was my take.

... and that God is written on all their hearts.

WG.

I don't have my contacts in. But I will put my glasses on and go back and read it.What did I say that was wrong. Didn't you say read read read and talk to all types of people of different faiths? i didn't quote you but that was my take.
You keep changing what I "said." In your original post you said, "...advised the OP to read read read all different types of material from Hindu's, Muslims, wiccan...whatever!" I did not say that. If I cannot trust what you are saying about me only 24 hours later, how can I trust ANYthing you say?

WG,

OK this is what you said...

The main thing is, talk to lots of people -- Hindus, Buddhists, Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, atheists, agnostics, wiccans, Muslims -- and read, read, read! Meanwhile, keep an open mind.

I'm really not trying to be unkind. I just don't know why you would send someone in search of something you have and know how to get to... to talk to people that don't have him. Anyone who rejects Christ... (according to Christ )can't get to the Father.

You keep changing what I "said." In your original post you said, "...advised the OP to read read read all different types of material from Hindu's, Muslims, wiccan...whatever!" I did not say that. If I cannot trust what you are saying about me only 24 hours later, how can I trust ANYthing you say?

I quoted you... lets discuss what you really did say.

I quoted you...lets discuss what you really did say.
"lets discuss"?? Please copy and paste what I really said.

Okay I found it copied and pasted right here

Did I say people have the answers? NO.
Do you have the answers? It seems so. And it scares me that someone is to read the Bible and decide for himself what anything means. Have I read the Bible? Many times? Have I studied the Bible alone and with others? Yes, for over 50 years. Do I have all the answers? No. Is God at work in my life? Yes, through all the people I deal with each day--the Muslims, the Buddhists, the wiccans, the Catholics, the Lutherans, the atheists, the agnostics, and even the Baptists, Methodists, and the Hindus--especially the Hindus because they make fantastic samosas and a more gentle people I will never meet.


Because I meet God in each of those people every day. I get the opportunity to not only see His love in their faces but share His love with each of them.

"lets discuss"?????? Please copy and paste what I really said.

I did... it was the second line... OK... I will do it again... here it goes.. this is YOUR words.


The main thing is, talk to lots of people -- Hindus, Buddhists, Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, atheists, agnostics, wiccans, Muslims -- and read, read, read! Meanwhile, keep an open mind.

I copied and pasted...

I did...it was the second line ..... ok....i will do it again...here it goes..this is YOUR words.


The main thing is, talk to lots of people -- Hindus, Buddhists, Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, atheists, agnostics, wiccans, Muslims -- and read, read, read! Meanwhile, keep an open mind.

i copied and pasted...
Now, tell me how that is the same as what you claimed I had said: "...advised the OP to read read read all different types of material from Hindu's, Muslims, wiccan...whatever!"

okay I found it copied and pasted right here

Did I say people have the answers? NO.
Do you have the answers? It seems so. And it scares me that someone is to read the Bible and decide for himself what anything means. Have I read the Bible? Many times? Have I studied the Bible alone and with others? Yes, for over 50 years. Do I have all the answers? No. Is God at work in my life? Yes, through all the people I deal with each day--the Muslims, the Buddhists, the wiccans, the Catholics, the Lutherans, the atheists, the agnostics, and even the Baptists, Methodists, and the Hindus--especially the Hindus because they make fantastic samosas and a more gentle people I will never meet.


Because I meet God in each of those people every day. I get the opportunity to not only see His love in their faces but share His love with each of them.
Wrong quote, Nohelp.

I can understand what you are saying sort of because God has used non believers and addicts to show me and teach me many spiritual truths
But you go on to make it out like there is no distinction between believers and non believers when you said these things...

Jesushelper is correct. When God created each one of us, He wrote His name on our heart (i.e, conscience).
__________________

Originally Posted by classyT
Jesushelper, we really don't all have God's spirit.

Wondergirl
Yes, we do. We are all His creatures and share His image.

As I said right before that post got closed
God says that if you confess your sins he will forgive them. People that do not aknowledge God do not confess and have remorse and ask God to forgive them and help them at overcoming their sin. They don't even see sin as being sin.

So how is someone who denies Christ fit into what you are claiming?

you go on to make it out like there is no distinction between believers and non believers when you said these things...
That's a stretch.


Jesushelper is correct. When God created each one of us, He wrote His name on our heart (i.e, conscience).
I said that.

Okay so what are you saying about the people who you see God in their faces?

You seem to be defending that they are going to heaven no matter what they believe. But from what you seem to be saying now that is not what you mean. So what are you saying/meaning?

OK... so I didn't say it exactly. I still am confused by what you said to a person in search of something you say you have found.

I can understand what you are saying sort of because God has used non believers and addicts to show me and teach me many spiritual truths
But you go on to make it out like there is no distinction between believers and non believers when you said these things.......

Jesushelper is correct. When God created each one of us, He wrote His name on our heart (i.e, conscience).
__________________

Originally Posted by classyT
Jesushelper, we really don't all have God's spirit.

Wondergirl
Yes, we do. We are all His creatures and share His image.

As I said right before that post got closed
God says that if you confess your sins he will forgive them. People that do not aknowledge God do not confess and have remorse and ask God to forgive them and help them at overcoming their sin. They don't even see sin as being sin.

So how is someone who denies Christ fit into what you are claiming?

This is what I am trying to understand.

okay so what are you saying about the people who you see God in their faces?
What do you think it means?


You seem to be defending that they are going to heaven no matter what they believe.
Heaven was never mentioned, at least not by me.


But from what you seem to be saying now that is not what you mean. So what are you saying/meaning?
I am saying exactly the same thing as last night. You and ClassyT are having a heck of a time even quoting me.

ok...so i didn't say it exactly. I still am confused by what you said to a person in search of something you say you have found.
I haven't the faintest idea what you are saying.

I would like to respond. I have not read everybody post but I have a lot to say. Not here to argue with anybody but just to share my thoughts about all of this and to say a few things about the thread as well.

ClassyT, talks about how she was accused of hijacking a thread. It was I that accused her of doing so. I also admitted privately that I contributed to the problem. It went on for a while and it was not fair to the original poster and stated that. I never once said that all paths lead to God. What I did say is that it is good to question, it is good to research and seek out other ideas and thoughts. Just because we are Christian or believers in Jesus Christ does not mean that it is wrong to look at other religions. For a person who is questioning their faith. I think it is best that he does go through all the steps. Search out other denominations other religions. By being told the bible is the only way, this is the only way. Is pushing people away from God. I think we could be more supportive of people on their journey. Even if it means searching out other books and religions because if they have been left with a great impression by us, and our actions and our words then They will feel more welcomed. They will come back and do you really think that God agrees that forcing people, or preaching or down grading another persons journey or search to be his will. God gave us FREEWILL. Wants us to CHOSE ON OUR OWN. So to force somebody to believe the same way, is going against Gods will.

God created us all. He gave us ALL LIFE. So I do not understand how somebody can say that he did not all give us spirit. If we did not have any spirit, we would not be alive, we would never have been created. Jesus Christ died on the Cross and he said that I will send out a comforter to you. The Holy Ghost ( The Holy Spirit). Each and everyone of us was created by God. We are all part of God and come from God. So his word, his spirit is within each and everyone of us. It is our choice to listen to that inner spirit or not.

God did give us thoughts, feelings, communication. We are all pieces of the puzzle, we are all unique and we all have a purpose. God is within me, and what feels right in my soul/spirit is what will come out. My heart comes from God. He is my Wisdom, he is my Creator and my thoughts and feelings were created by him. We all have the choice to love or not to love. We all have choices to make in this life and we were giving the individuality, we were giving the mind to think, thoughts to share. Not everybody is the same or will agree but how we go about meeting each other and coming together whether we agree on all the wording or not.

Most peoples disagreements or misunderstands are based on a different way of wording things. The thing is the greatest commandment is to love one another. Everyone. Not just people that are in your same belief system.

I believe that God welcomes people to question him. To question religion, to question the world. Books are books. Thoughts are out there, and it does not make a licking difference who reads what as long as the individual finds GOD IN HIS OWN WAY. We all have a journey to make. We can share what we believe, we can tell them about the bible and share the bible. The young man on the other thread was brought up and knows it very well. So he needs to go out and see what else is out there, and he needs to make a decision on his own whether he will come back to his original teachings or not.

By the way, you can have God in your heart. You can have Jesus in your heart and living word in your spirit/soul. That does not nor should limit that person to read other books, to search out the truth on there own even if it means looking at other religions.

God and Jesus was about LOVE, UNDERSTANDING, AND FORGIVENESS. GOD IS WHERE LOVE IS.

Jesus is not for the found but for the lost. Jesus will look and seek out those who are lost but the ones that think or believe that they know everything. Are the ones that are pushing people away from God and I feel that people who are forcing their beliefs on others are actually doing a disservice to that individual and to God. We need to be loving and understanding and gentle.

This is what I believe, it is up to you to chose what you think is best for yourself. Search out other things, guaranteed he will come back.

I haven't the faintest idea what you are saying.

So.. why would you tell someone in search of God to talk to people who do not KNOW God and then instruct to read read read. Read WHAT? I don't understand as a Christian woman... I would expect someone who does not have a relationship with Jesus Christ to say that type of thing.. not someone WITH one. Why lead someone... away from the Father?

so..why would you tell someone in search of God to talk to people who do not KNOW God and then instruct to read read read. Read WHAT? I don't understand as a Christian woman...I would expect someone who does not have a relationship with Jesus Christ to say that type of thing..not someone WITH one. Why lead someone .....away from the Father?

Please read more what I wrote above and maybe you will understand my thoughts on it.

Just because we are Christian or believers in Jesus Christ does not mean that it is wrong to look at other religions. For a person who is questioning their faith. I think it is best that he does go through all the steps. Search out other denominations other religions.
Some time ago, a girl posted a question on one of these boards and said she wanted to find a way to get out of evolution/science class because it was against her Christian faith. I advised her to stay in the class and learn all she could and to get a good grade. The more she knows about something, the better off she will be in arguing against it, if that's what she thinks she needs to do.

I was advising a coworker about getting his short story edited and published. It centered around the Baha'i faith. I knew nothing about that religion, so I dug into studying about it. Did I join their church? No. Did I improve the way he told the short story? Yes. Plus I have his respect more than I did before, and am closer to bringing him into Christianity (if he so chooses). (Baha'i has some similarities, and I know what they are. Do you?)

The same with other religions -- the more one knows about them, the more informed one is and can more reasonably and cogently discuss with someone who believes in one of them. My coworker is Hindu. I've learned a lot about Hinduism by talking with her, listening to her, reading about Hinduism. Have I become a Hindu? No. But I have her love and attention and respect now, and am a lot closer to bringing her to Christianity (if she so chooses) than if I had pounded her over the head with the Old Testament.

Like I had said, talk with others about their religions and learn about those religions. It will give you the best advantage as a missionary to them.

Yes ! A resounding YES ! God Bless You :) All paths DO lead to God ! In my opinion

I would like to respond. I have not read everybody post but I have a lot to say. Not here to argue with anybody but just to share my thoughts about all of this and to say a few things about the thread as well.

ClassyT, talks about how she was accused of hijacking a thread. It was I that accused her of doing so. I also admitted privately that I contributed to the problem. It went on for a while and it was not fair to the original poster and stated that. I never once said that all paths lead to God. What I did say is that it is good to question, it is good to research and seek out other ideas and thoughts. Just because we are Christian or believers in Jesus Christ does not mean that it is wrong to look at other religions. For a person who is questioning their faith. I think it is best that he does go through all the steps. Search out other denominations other religions. By being told the bible is the only way, this is the only way. Is pushing people away from God. I think we could be more supportive of people on their journey. Even if it means searching out other books and religions because if they have been left with a great impression by us, and our actions and our words then They will feel more welcomed. They will come back and do you really think that God agrees that forcing people, or preaching or down grading another persons journey or search to be his will. God gave us FREEWILL. Wants us to CHOSE ON OUR OWN. So to force somebody to believe the same way, is going against Gods will.

God created us all. He gave us ALL LIFE. So I do not understand how somebody can say that he did not all give us spirit. If we did not have any spirit, we would not be alive, we would never have been created. Jesus Christ died on the Cross and he said that I will send out a comforter to you. The Holy Ghost ( The Holy Spirit). Each and everyone of us was created by God. We are all part of God and come from God. So his word, his spirit is within each and everyone of us. It is our choice to listen to that inner spirit or not.

God did give us thoughts, feelings, communication. We are all pieces of the puzzle, we are all unique and we all have a purpose. God is within me, and what feels right in my soul/spirit is what will come out. My heart comes from God. He is my Wisdom, he is my Creator and my thoughts and feelings were created by him. We all have the choice to love or not to love. We all have choices to make in this life and we were giving the individuality, we were giving the mind to think, thoughts to share. Not everybody is the same or will agree but how we go about meeting each other and coming together whether we agree on all the wording or not.

Most peoples disagreements or misunderstands are based on a different way of wording things. The thing is the greatest commandment is to love one another. Everyone. Not just people that are in your same belief system.

I believe that God welcomes people to question him. To question religion, to question the world. Books are books. Thoughts are out there, and it does not make a licking difference who reads what as long as the individual finds GOD IN HIS OWN WAY. We all have a journey to make. We can share what we believe, we can tell them about the bible and share the bible. The young man on the other thread was brought up and knows it very well. So he needs to go out and see what else is out there, and he needs to make a decision on his own whether he will come back to his original teachings or not.

By the way, you can have God in your heart. You can have Jesus in your heart and living word in your spirit/soul. That does not nor should limit that person to read other books, to search out the truth on there own even if it means looking at other religions.

God and Jesus was about LOVE, UNDERSTANDING, AND FORGIVENESS. GOD IS WHERE LOVE IS.

Jesus is not for the found but for the lost. Jesus will look and seek out those who are lost but the ones that think or believe that they know everything. Are the ones that are pushing people away from God and I feel that people who are forcing their beliefs on others are actually doing a disservice to that individual and to God. We need to be loving and understanding and gentle.

This is what I believe, it is up to you to chose what you think is best for yourself. Search out other things, guaranteed he will come back.

Joe,

Wow. That was a great post. I agreed with MOST of what you said and you provided me with what I was looking for. I personally wouldn't send someone on a quest for truth from people that I believe do not have it... but at least you made me understand some of your points that I didn't get last night. I apologize if I offended you and I think using wisdom is always the best way to reach people. I get so passionate sometimes... I don't always use wisdom. I guess my approach is so different from yours that maybe I thought it was yours was"lukewarm". I guess the Lord gave us all different personalities for a reason... thanks for your response. :)

Yes, approach is defiantly different. Different people need to be approached in different ways. The Lord gave us all different personalities for a reason, and I agree. Your welcome and I am glad that I answered some of your questions.

I know that at some point we can all agree on one thing.

I wonder what it is ? :rolleyes:

sorry, dont think so, been around a long time and I dont think you are right. They can't even decode the Dead Sea Scrolls properly which is supposed to contain some of the disciples teachings.

Really? And exactly who are you and what role did you play in the committee that was working on the Dead Sea scrolls - do tell, I can verify your claims.

BTW, I have a copy of the Dead Sea scrolls translation right in front of me.

You have no way of knowing this. And that is a silly thing to put your faith into as there is nothing in the Bible that states that this may be accurate.

I gave the quote - if you don't like it, take it up with the author of the Bible.



Look at verse 16. "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God.." There were 4 more books that were put into the Bible after Timothy wrote this. And how many other books/letters were written that were NOT included in the Bible.

Books that were not put in the Bible are not part of the Bible. Your comment assumes that God did not know the makeup of His own Bible.



And WHO had the say so as to which books would be included? The Church.

No, God.


You cannot say with any accuracy what all Timothy was or was not referring to with the word "Scripture".

Actually, we know quite well. The OT was well defined by then and much iof the NT is defined as scripture within the NT by other books of scripture.


The Bible as we know it wasn't seen until around 300 AD.

I'd love to see your validation for that claim!

How do you get the word out to the millions who died before Christ was born?

Maybe I look older than I am, but I am really much less than 2000 years old, so I did not do anything.

Having a copy of "the Greek" or any other copy does NOT mean you did not interpret it.

Really? So you never heard of "reading"?

Exactly where does your Bible prove the dates you claimed? Do you understand that the earliest copies we have date from the 4th century?

Try 24,000 partial or complete manuscripts, the earliest dating back to the 2nd century.

Athos,

Those old testament saints are all covered under the blood of Christ. The sacrifices of animals just covered them. They knew NOTHING of the Lord Jesus...and yet he certainly was promised in Genesis 3.

Quite right. No one has been saved by any way other than the blood of Christ. The OT ritual sacrifices were prophetic of the coming of the Messiah who would die on the cross, shedding His blood to pay the price for our sins.

It's very simple. Many Christians have a more profound understanding of Christianity than Fundamentalists. It's really as simple as that. They don't limit God to their own beliefs. Good night, all.

So you are claiming that all Fundamentalist Christians are unsaved?

Yes all paths lead to God.
Love.Its that simple.

Yes all paths lead to God.
Love.Its that simple.

You may have missed my earlier reference to scripture. It is simply not possible that all paths lead to God because by saying so, you are denying the Bible and Christianity as a path to God because the God of the Bible claims exclusivity:

Acts 4:10-12
10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.' 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
NKJV

John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
NKJV

And then a serious warning to those who teach otherwise:

Gal 1:6-10
6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. 10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.
NKJV

This is the only place in all scripture where a curse is repeated against anyone for anything. Clearly to suggest that there is any other gospel is considered to be an extremely serious offense by God.

Therefore either you accept the claims of God's word in the Bible that Jesus ALONE is the path to God, or you reject Christianity and look for other paths. In either case, it cannot be true that all paths lead to God.

The Bible as we know it wasn't seen until around 300 AD.


I'd love to see your validation for that claim!!

I'll help. From straightdope.com --

The first officially sanctioned canon of the New Testament was attempted by Irenaeus of Lyon. Irenaeus saw the effect Gnosticism was having on Christianity and feared that the church was splintering into factions. Formalizing doctrinal authority seemed to be the answer. He felt there were two sources of authority: Scripture and the apostles. A work could be accepted as canonical if the early church fathers used it. He never really compiled a list of books, but he did establish the basis for subsequent determinations of orthodoxy.

The work of Irenaeus was solidified by Bishop Eusebius some 150 years later, early in the 4th century AD. Eusebius was a prolific church historian who gave us most of what we know of early church history. He also gave us the first surviving list of New Testament books that matches what we have today, putting them in thematic order as well. Relying on the tradition of the church, Eusebius created what was probably the first Christian Bible as we know it today.

It's very simple. Many Christians have a more profound understanding of Christianity than Fundamentalists. It's really as simple as that. They don't limit God to their own beliefs.

So you are claiming that all Fundamentalist Christians are unsaved?
No, he isn't. Read that again carefully.

Romans 8:28 But we know that to those who love God all things work together for good, to those who are called according to his purpose.
The next question then is, how does someone love God?
John 14:15 If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
That goes for those who know Him!What about all those who do not know Him?
Romans 2:14 For whenever Gentiles, that have no law, do by nature the things of the law, these, not having law, are a law to themselves:

15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing testimony, and their reasonings between one another bringing accusation, or also making excuse

16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men through Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Yes Jesus Christ says I am the way,I am the truth,I am the LIFE,but those words could also been said like this..
The way is I AM,the truth is I AM,the LIFE is I AM when we know that I AM is God's name,meaning that someone who does not know Jesus, walking the way, testifying the truth with the heart and living LIFE by nature, does love Jesus!
1+2=3 but 2+1=3 also!
Where a path leads depends on if by faith or by nature, the commandments of Jesus are kept!

If I met you on the street and I needed a hand,do you reach out?
Love ie' God in action?

It is simply not possible that all paths lead to God because by saying so, you are denying the Bible and Christianity as a path to God because the God of the Bible claims exclusivity:
I have Faith and my faith tells me that Jesus Christ is my savior and I believe that he gets me.He knows my good and my bad and I have only a few worries about seeing him right away.
I may have to do some purgatory time,I'm cool with that.
Never assume you are above anyone,it is not your judgment.

Some time ago, a girl posted a question on one of these boards and said she wanted to find a way to get out of evolution/science class because it was against her Christian faith. I advised her to stay in the class and learn all she could and to get a good grade. The more she knows about something, the better off she will be in arguing against it, if that's what she thinks she needs to do.

I was advising a coworker about getting his short story edited and published. It centered around the Baha'i faith. I knew nothing about that religion, so I dug into studying about it. Did I join their church? No. Did I improve the way he told the short story? Yes. Plus I have his respect more than I did before, and am closer to bringing him into Christianity (if he so chooses). (Baha'i has some similarities, and I know what they are. Do you?)

The same with other religions -- the more one knows about them, the more informed one is and can more reasonably and cogently discuss with someone who believes in one of them. My coworker is Hindu. I've learned a lot about Hinduism by talking with her, listening to her, reading about Hinduism. Have I become a Hindu? No. But I have her love and attention and respect now, and am a lot closer to bringing her to Christianity (if she so chooses) than if I had pounded her over the head with the Old Testament.

Like I had said, talk with others about their religions and learn about those religions. It will give you the best advantage as a missionary to them.

I see what you mean...
1 Corinthians 9:19 For being free from all I made myself servant to all, that I might gain the greater number;

20 and I became to the Jews as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to those under law as under law, not being myself under law, that I might gain those under law;

21 to those without law as without law, not being without law to God, but under law to Christ, that I might gain those without law;

22 to the weak I became weak, that I might gain the weak: to all I became all things, that by all means I might save some.

Maybe classyT means that this blessed behavior comes from someone who does know Jesus and you advising somoene who does not know Jesus to do somehow so,amazes her.
Of course you did not say to that person to relate to all those people to gain them in Christ but only to expend his/hers view.
Yes I see good in many different people, but now that I know Christ I can only point to Him when someone is asking for the way.
But this is not a rule, that we all have to follow.We are all different and we all have our own personal path.God is able to find us wherever we are if we just seek for Him!
Huge subject and I am too small even to express myself.
Thank God it is not up to me , but it is He who deals with it!

I have Faith and my faith tells me that Jesus Christ is my savior and I believe that he gets me.He knows my good and my bad and I have only a few worries about seeing him right away.
I may have to do some purgatory time,I'm cool with that.
Never assume you are above anyone,it is not your judgment.

Artlady,

I really shouldn't speak for Tj3 but I have to say... I don'tbelieve he assumes he is above anyone. Geesh, we are all here born in the same human condition. I believe that the Bibe is clear that unfortunately all paths Do NOT lead to the Father. I only go by what it says because frankly, it be a whole lot easier if they did, that is how MY MIND THINKS. It isn't what God says though. :)

Maybe classyT means that this blessed behavior comes from someone who does know Jesus and you advising somoene who does not know Jesus to do somehow so,amazes her.


Yes. Glad you understood me. It did amaze me and I personally wouldn't do it. But Jesushelper had a point last night and I am willing to let God be God in his or her life. After all, we are all different.

I'll help. From straightdope.com --

First, I am not sure that I would pit something called "straightdope" against credible historical sources, but let's move on...


[I]The first officially sanctioned canon of the New Testament was attempted by Irenaeus of Lyon.

"Officially sanctioned" - Interesting term. This does not mean that the NT did not exist prior to that date. And since the OT pre-existed the NT, the fact is that by the end of the 1st century, the Bible was there, and agreement on what the canonical books were was almost identical to whet we have in most churches today.

No, he isn't. Read that again carefully.

I did - and that is the clear implication. YOU read again carefully.

I have Faith and my faith tells me that Jesus Christ is my savior and I believe that he gets me.He knows my good and my bad and I have only a few worries about seeing him right away.

If "your faith" tells you that there are many way to God, and scripture says there is only one, then your faith is wrong because it contradicts God's word. Now whether YOU are saved, I am not going to say because I don't know your heart, but I do know that the claim that there are many ways to God is a false gospel because God's waord says that it is.


I may have to do some purgatory time,I'm cool with that.
Never assume you are above anyone,it is not your judgment.

There is no purgatory.

And I am not above you or anyone. We are all sinners who have fallen short of the glory of God and need to have the blood of Jesus wash away our sins in order to be saved.

I gave the quote - if you don't like it, take it up with the author of the Bible.

I don't deny the quote that Timothy wrote.. I do question your interpretation that it only refers to the books which the Church has brainwashed so many into believing are the unscathed words of God... untouched by the evilness of man.



Books that were not put in the Bible are not part of the Bible. Your comment assumes that God did not know the makeup of His own Bible.


My comment assumes that of all the works that God inspired, these are the only ones that the Church put into the Bible... as manipulated as they are to serve the "higher" purpose of the Church (ie controlling the nations).



No, God.


No, the Church.



Actually, we know quite well. The OT was well defined by then and much iof the NT is defined as scripture within the NT by other books of scripture.


Of course the NT that we were all given by the church hundreds of years after it was written was combed through as precisely as possible so that it would not contradict itself.




I'd love to see your validation for that claim!!

The Codex Sinaiticus.

And what is your validation that anything existed earlier?

Actually no, the NT we have now is very close to the original versions. And I can't see how they were to be used to control since unlike the Old Testement they are not a group of laws and restrictions. In fact they even said to follow and obey the government over you, which was a variety of governments, many in conflict with each other.

The simple fact is that the NT that we have today was about what was there within 100 years after the death of Christ. A few local churches had some extra writings, a few churches did not have all the other churches did. But they were shared. It was not till latter they were combined in to one writing.

Dr. D,

For me it isn't about fear. It is all about trust and faith. Geesh, if I didn't have the Lord to rely on everyday about everything...i would be in fear.

My point was that so many are taught and believe in God through fear... the fear of Eternal Damnation... the fear of not receiving the gift of Everlasting Life.

This goes back to the idea of another world where God punished those that believed in Him with Eternal Damnation... because loving the Lord your Father should have nothing to do with your selfish desire of Everlasting Life. If that were the case, would you still devout your life to Him (<--rhetorical question as I already know that no one here would ever admit to the rest of us if they wouldn't.. but its food for thought)



I'm confused by you. I'm not sure of your point. Do you believe all paths evidentually lead to God?

My beliefs are the not the point. The point is that there is so much in Religion today that contradicts the Truth and Love of God's Word. Even the Bible itself is quoted to prove these points.

The simple point is there... plain as day. Belief in Him and you shall be saved. But then there is all this fear based fluff, that I believe was added by the Church through the years before the Bible's actual release... "but do this and be cursed.. do that and you'll go to Hell... think like this and God will turn His back on you." What better way to control the huddled masses than to manipulate their own beliefs and use it against them...

I don't deny the quote that Timothy wrote.. I do question your interpretation that it only refers to the books which the Church has brainwashed so many into believing are the unscathed words of God... untouched by the evilness of man.

That sounds to me like you deny that God was able to define His own Bible and was unable to preserve His word. It also sounds like you deny the evidence going back thousands of years which shows that the manuscripts, through to the Bible that we have today has remained transmitted accurately.


My comment assumes that of all the works that God inspired, these are the only ones that the Church put into the Bible...

Since other works are either self-contradictory, or contradictory to the Bible, this would mean that God contradicted Himself, and thus the god that you are describing would be one who makes mistakes.


Of course the NT that we were all given by the church hundreds of years after it was written was combed through as precisely as possible so that it would not contradict itself.


That is your claim which is completely in contradiction with all historical evidence. Anyone can make claims, but that does not make them true.

That sounds to me like you deny that God was able to define His own Bible and was unable to preserve His word.

Soooo... then God removed the freewill of Man long enough to preserve the Bible... and then put it back?



It also sounds like you deny the evidence going back thousands of years which shows that the manuscripts, through to the Bible that we have today has remained transmitted accurately.

It sounds to me that you enjoy making inaccurate claims of historical evidence. My favorite part is when you said "evidence going back thousands of years". Especially when some of the books of the Bible were written less than 2,000 years ago.

I understand your passion but you allow your emotions to get in the way of intelligent conversation.




Since other works are either self-contradictory, or contradictory to the Bible, this would mean that God contradicted Himself, and thus the god that you are describing would be one who makes mistakes.


Again, you are using a book that was manipulated by man as proof that no one works are the inspired works of God.

GOD did not contradict Himself. Man contradicted God.



That is your claim which is completely in contradiction with all historical evidence. Anyone can make claims, but that does not make them true.

Here you go with these crazy generalizations again. "Completely in contradiction with all historical evidence".

Anyway. what "historical evidence" do you have that shows an earlier version of the Bible that was released to the public?

Classyt,
I can't stay away but from now on I'll just answer the questions instead of getting into personal discussions which usually devolve into ad hominem attacks and knocking down straw men.
The answer is NO. There is no other way to the Father but by Jesus Christ.
It is his shed sinless blood that covers our sins. Since all our sins are ultimately against God, God alone can forgive our sins.(For we all like sheep have gone astray). Jesus paying our penalty by dying the death we should have paid(the wages of sin is death)is the method that God has chosen to forgive sins. No other way or religious system has an answer for how sins are to be atoned for because no amount of good works makes up for or counteracts a single sin.

Well, I read through pg 9 and skipped to here, so probably missed something profound.

It is a matter of faith:

Heb 11:6
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
(KJV)

BUT after coming to God, we get a witness:

Rom 8:15-16
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
(KJV)

Having accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior, we receive the TEACHER.

John 14:15-17
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
(KJV)

AND

John 16:13-14
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
(KJV)

THEREFORE, since we have this Spirit of Truth, we become acquainted with the AUTHOR of the Bible.

When you know the author, you have no trouble understanding what He meant. You are no longer guessing.

I want to add one more thing.

Any Christian who says that all roads lead to God has denied the faith.

If that were so, then Jesus made a terrible mistake when He volunteered to be crucified to save us from our sins.

I want to add one more thing.

Any Christian who says that all roads lead to God has denied the faith.

If that were so, then Jesus made a terrible mistake when He volunteered to be crucified to save us from our sins.
So only Christians -- specially chosen Christians -- will be in heaven.

There you go again, taking a truth and turning it around and perverting it to suit your needs. Where did galveston say any such thing?

So only Christians -- specially chosen Christians -- will be in heaven.

First, how many kinds of Christians do you think there are? You either are one or you are not.

Secondly, Jesus is completely exclusive. Yes only those who accept Jesus as Lord and Savior will be in Heaven, understanding that the Old Testament saints are saved by their faith in the promise of God, which looked forward to Messiah.

John 14:6
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
(KJV)

BUT, thirdly, Jesus is completely inclusive.

John 7:37-38
37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
(KJV)

John 6:37
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
(KJV)

All that is required to gain Heaven is to accept the gracious offer from God. What is so difficult to understand about that?

I know where I am going. My wishes are to be cremated and my ashes scattered in the water at my favourite beach in eastern Ontario, Presquille Point. That puts me back in nature where I belong.

Tick

First, how many kinds of Christians do you think there are? You either are one or you are not.
Oh. I've gotten the impression that there is a pecking order. I've been told more than once by fundies here that I am not a Christian. (I use the term "fundies" with much love, since I was born into and grew up in that world.)

All that is required to gain Heaven is to accept the gracious offer from God. What is so difficult to understand about that?
But the acceptance is not of man's doing.

First, how many kinds of Christians do you think there are? You either are one or you are not.

Secondly, Jesus is completely exclusive. Yes only those who accept Jesus as Lord and Savior will be in Heaven
?

I don't believe I will absolutely not be in heaven unless I accept Jesus. I could be destined for hell for that matter, who knows.

I was going to give you a reddie for your post, galveston, but it would have been going against forum basics if I did. As a matter of fact, you should read forum basics before you hand out reddies. You don't do it right. You can't fault someone for their own opinions and that's the reddie you gave me, voicing my own opinion.

Knowing what I do about Jesus who walked on this earth, reading about him, not in scripture, but as a real person, possibly a good man, doing good deeds, loving people, fighting for his truth, why would he not want all good people to be in heaven with him, christian or not ? If he will only accept christians then that is going against everything I have heard of him.


Tick

All versions of the bible were written long after Jesus passed, and for that matter, all disciples.

The bible, in any version has proven to be an exemplary source of archeological information and that is the only credence I will give it.

tick


Altenweg agrees: Same here Tickle.
galveston disagrees: You completely ignore the abundance of fulfilled prophecy.
Unknown008 agrees: Balancer, I have to agree


I guess I am not alone in my opinion, galveston.

Tick

Do you as a Christian believe other paths..(other than the Finished work of Christ)..leads to the Father?

No way no how!

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed KJV


Phl 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

If he will only accept christians then that is going against everything I have heard of him.
Bingo!

Altenweg agrees: Same here Tickle.
galveston disagrees: You completely ignore the abundance of fulfilled prophecy.
Unknown008 agrees: Balancer, I have to agree


I guess I am not alone in my opinion, galveston.

tick
I ask you to prove this several pages back. So far you have ignored me. Why is that? Is it because you have no proof of this? Or are you simply ignoring me? My bible gives the accepted dates for each book contained therein. How about yours?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tickle
If he will only accept christians then that is going against everything I have heard of him.

WG
Bingo!

So what religion are you if you do not believe the Bible?
I know WG said she is/was Lutheran.

I guess the Lutheran Church threw the Bible out the door??

Many verses in the Bible go against that ALL people are going to heaven.

Soooo... then God removed the freewill of Man long enough to preserve the Bible... and then put it back?

I don't know how you came to that conclusion. If I wrote a book, and preserves the copyright and the original manuscript, that would not mean that I would be removing freewill from the whole world, so I am not sure how you extrapolated that to be the case with the Bible.

Why is it such a problem that it should have been so perfectly preserved?

If the evidence showed that it wasn't, then you would say - see it was corrupted, but since we have evidence that it was perfectly preserved, you are trying to argue that to be a problem. Seems to me that you just don't like the Bible - PERIOD.


It sounds to me that you enjoy making inaccurate claims of historical evidence. My favorite part is when you said "evidence going back thousands of years". Especially when some of the books of the Bible were written less than 2,000 years ago.

I understand your passion but you allow your emotions to get in the way of intelligent conversation.

Ah, now the ad hominem arguments.


GOD did not contradict Himself. Man contradicted God.

Agreed. That is why I stick to what the Bible itself says and do not treat book outside of the Bible as God inspired works.


Here you go with these crazy generalizations again. "Completely in contradiction with all historical evidence".

Anyway. what "historical evidence" do you have that shows an earlier version of the Bible that was released to the public?

You may find this enlightening.

Ancient NT Manuscripts (http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/7547/ntmss.html)

Altenweg agrees: Same here Tickle.
galveston disagrees: You completely ignore the abundance of fulfilled prophecy.
Unknown008 agrees: Balancer, I have to agree


I guess I am not alone in my opinion, galveston.

tick

You have multiple personalities??

Many verses in the Bible go against that ALL people are going to heaven.
So only real Christians are going. Right?

I guess the Lutheran Church threw the Bible out the door???

You wouldn't have that Bible in your hot little hands if it weren't for Luther.

You wouldn't have that Bible in your hot little hands if it weren't for Luther.

I'd be real careful about suggesting that God could not do something without a particular man. God is not so limited.

Matt 3:9-10
.. do not think to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.
NKJV

So then why don't you believe it?

I'd be real careful about suggesting that God could not do something without a particular man.
Then God chose Luther to get His book into the hands of the common people.

So then why don't you believe it?
I believe it, but not with the same interpretation that you do, apparently.

Then God chose Luther to get His book into the hands of the common people.

God used many people for that purpose. Ever heard of Wycliffe? King James? Gutenberg... shall I go on?

God used many people for that purpose. Ever heard of Wylcliffe? King James? Gutenberg ... shall I go on?
Who was first?

I believe it, but not with the same interpretation that you do, apparently.

I'd be interested in hearing how you apply your own personal interpretation to these verses to make them say that there are many ways to be saved other than Jesus.

John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
NKJV

Acts 4:12
12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
NKJV

Nlo its not that it isn't the same interpretation it's that you are throwing away a lot of verses.

Luther was not first because he wanted reform from what was first.

Who was first?

God.

I'd be interested in hearing how you apply your own interpretation to these verse to make them say that there are many ways to be saved other than Jesus.

John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
NKJV

Acts 4:12
12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
NKJV

And a whole lot more!

God.
He was the first to translate the Bible into something accessible to the common man?

Luther was not first because he wanted reform from what was first.
Luther was the first to take the power of interpretation away from the RCC by making the Bible accessible to the common man.

He was the first to translate the Bible into something accessible to the common man?

You think that he gave the Bible in a language other than Hebrew to the Hebrews?

Luther was the first to take the power of interpretation away from the RCC and to make the Bible accessible to the common man.

Sorry to tell you this, but the RCC never had the power of interpretation. They only claimed they did.

Sorry to tell you this, but the RCC never had the power of interpretation. they only claimed they did.
Yes, they did. The common man was in thrall to the church for interpretation.

If you believe with your heart and believe with your mouth.

No one can come to the Father except through Jesus
10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

Matt 7:27 And then I will confess unto them that I never aknew them; and they shall bdepart into ceverlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.


You will know them by their fruits

What do you do with those verses??

If God accepts people who reject him into his kingdom then Jesus died for NO reason.

Luther was the first to take the power of interpretation away from the RCC by making the Bible accessible to the common man.

So then why do you not believe what these verses say and mean then?

Yes, they did. The common man was in thrall to the church for interpretation.

They claimed authority that was never theirs.

If you claim that they legitimately had that authority, you'd have to show me where. But nonetheless, even if that were true, Luther was not the first. I mentioned Wyfliffe, and though you may not be aware, he was ahead of Luther by 200+ years. And there were others.

I don't know how you came to that conclusion. If I wrote a book, and preserves the copyright and the original manuscript, that would not mean that I would be removing freewill from the whole world, so I am not sure how you extrapolated that to be the case with the Bible.

Why is it such a problem that it should have been so perfectly preserved?

If the evidence showed that it wasn't, then you would say - see it was corrupted, but since we have evidence that it was perfectly preserved, you are trying to argue that to be a problem. Seems to me that you just don't like the Bible - PERIOD.


God inspired Man. Man wrote the books. The books were collected over time. Centuries later, they were put into one book: The Bible. After Jesus, God never presented Himself to another man. What makes you think that God himself put the Bible together?

And where is this evidence that it was perfectly preserved??



Ah, now the ad hominem arguments.

Don't make silly claims and you won't get silly responses.



You may find this enlightening.

Ancient NT Manuscripts (http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/7547/ntmss.html)

Even if I were to look past the fact that you are using some free, geocities website (that anyone could have put together and typed anything into without a penny from their pocket) to try and PROVE anything to me, this website itself admits that the OLDEST version of the completed NT dates back to 325AD - 350 AD. So what is it that you are trying to say?


NOWHERE in the Bible does it list off WHO and WHAT would placed into God's Word. It was not until 300 years after the death of Jesus that all these books were assembled... but who said what goes and what stays??

Obviously God did not... because nowhere in the Bible does it state what books are to be in the Bible. So, if you claim that God said which books go and which books stay, you are saying that there is SOMETHING ELSE that is the Word of God... this something is what told whoever to put the Bible together as it is today.

Either that or God, Himself, came down with a Bible to deliver to the world.. which again, will go against the Bible itself and implode your entire theory.

You think that he gave the Bible in a language other than Hebrew to the Hebrews?
God used Luther to translate the entire Bible into German in a six-part edition in 1534. Before than only educated churchmen could read it (in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin).

I think we are going off track with Luther and who interpreted the Bible.
Four or five of us have asked WG why she believes all go to heaven when the Bible clearly states otherwise. We have yet to hear the explanation of her interpretation of the verses Tj and I asked about.

God used Luther to translate the entire Bible into German in a six-part edition in 1534. Before than only educated churchmen could read it (in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin).

All the stuff about the origins of the Bible is side tracking HOW do you interpret the verses that Tj3, me and Donn asked you?

You claimed I wasn't answering you on that last post whenever I did answer you but you are totally avoiding the question here.

God used Luther to translate the entire Bible into German in a six-part edition in 1534. Before than only educated churchmen could read it (in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin).

Yes, of course, that's when the printing press was invented !

Tick

God inspired Man. Man wrote the books. The books were collected over time. Centuries later, they were put into one book: The Bible. After Jesus, God never presented Himself to another man. What makes you think that God himself put the Bible together?

You seem to have a very low view of God.



And where is this evidence that it was perfectly preserved??

Why don't you start by looking at a comparison for the Dead Sea scrolls to what we have today.


Even if I were to look past the fact that you are using some free, geocities website (that anyone could have put together and typed anything into without a penny from their pocket) to try and PROVE anything to me, this website itself admits that the OLDEST version of the completed NT dates back to 325AD - 350 AD. So what is it that you are trying to say?

Ho hum - so you read one line and missed everything else. Pretty myopic vision I'd say - have you seen an optometrist? :p


NOWHERE in the Bible does it list off WHO and WHAT would placed into God's Word. It was not until 300 years after the death of Jesus that all these books were assembled... but who said what goes and what stays??

Actually, there are many books in the Bible identified by other books in the Bible as scripture, for example the writings of Paul are scripture:

2 Peter 3:14-17
14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
NKJV

You really need to take more time at doing your research before coming on here making unvalidated claims (and I have yet to see you validate a single claim).

They claimed authority that was never theirs.

If you claim that they legitimately had that authority, you'd have to show me where. But nonetheless, even if that were true, Luther was not the first. I mentioned Wyfliffe, and though you may not be aware, he was ahead of Luther by 200+ years. And there were others.
They didn't know that.

I'll give you this: "Wycliffe was also an early advocate for translation of the Bible in the common tongue. He completed his translation directly from the Vulgate into vernacular English in the year 1382, now known as the Wycliffe Bible."

150 years.

God used Luther to translate the entire Bible into German in a six-part edition in 1534. Before than only educated churchmen could read it (in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin).

And it was translated into many languages centuries before that. Wycliffe translated it into English in more recent times before Luther.

So what? Do you focus your worship on God or on Luther?

As Nohelp4u said, why don't you address the verses that I posted earlier rather than keep going down this rathole with inordinate focus on one man.

They didn't know that.

I'll give you this: "Wycliffe was also an early advocate for translation of the Bible in the common tongue. He completed his translation directly from the Vulgate into vernacular English in the year 1382, now known as the Wycliffe Bible."

150 years.


Apparently YOU didn't know it.

How about addressing those verses that I posted earlier?

yes, of course, thats when the printing press was invented !

tick
Nifty coincidence, doncha think?

[QUOTE=Tj3;1847722

Why don't you start by looking at a comparison fo the Dead Sea scrolls to what we have today.



Ho hum - so you read one line and missed everything else. Pretty myopic vision I'd say - have you seen an optometrist? :p



.[/QUOTE]

That was a really intelligent comment, Tj, kind of immature at best... seen an optometrist ?

As for dead sea scrolls, they are undeciperable, in pieces, the arabs that found them didn't know what they had so they were abused for quite a while until turning them over to the authorities. I am seeing them tomorrow, they are being displayed at the Royal Ontario Museum in Toronto. Wonderful works of art but who can read them to actually know what they contain, Tj ? Of course the Jews lauded the discovery, but Jesus wasn't Jewish.

Tick

That was a really intelligent comment, Tj, kind of immature at best... seen an optometrist ?

Well, if someone is going to look at a whole page and ignore everything but one line, I've got to question their attention to detail, either eyesight or deliberately ignoring the rest of the information.


As for dead sea scrolls, they are undeciperable, in pieces, the arabs that found them didn't know what they had so they were abused for quite a while until turning them over to the authorities. I am seeing them tomorrow, they are being displayed at the Royal Ontario Museum in Toronto. Wonderful works of art but who can read them to actually know what they contain, Tj ? Of course the Jews lauded the discovery, but Jesus wasn't Jewish.
Tick

Take the time to check around - there are a number of translations of the scrolls available - I am looking at one here at my desk. There is technology today which can pick out that which might otherwise not be visible on the manscripts.

You'd be amazed.

Myopic? Maybe that is why the question of the topic here is being evaded?

What is the interpretation of the verses that say not all people are going to heaven if you believe the Bible and say everybody is going to heaven?

Myopic? maybe that is why the question of the topic here is being evaded?

What is the interpretation of the verses that say not all people are going to heaven if you believe the Bible and say everybody is going to heaven?

I think you have a point. Let me post my question back up here again and see if WG or anyone else has the courage to respond:

To WG or anyone else who thinks all paths lead to God:

I'd be interested in hearing how you apply your own personal interpretation to these verses to make them say that there are many ways to be saved other than Jesus.

John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
NKJV

Acts 4:12
12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
NKJV

Tj, there are so many pieces missing in the scrolls, no one knows what they refer to.

Tick

Tj, there are so many pieces missing in the scrolls, no one knows what they refer to.

tick

You really need to check out your facts.

Tj, there are so many pieces missing in the scrolls, no one knows what they refer to.

tick

That doesn't help answer what you believe the interpretation about not all people being saved is to justify your belief that they are.

That doesn't help answer what you believe the interpretation about not all people being saved is to justify your belief that they are.

That wasn't my issue.

Tick

IT IS the issue of the OP's post.

It would be nice if you all want to discuss the origins of the Bible and its history to start a new post.

Do all paths eventually lead to God? That is the original question. Right?

I don't think that I have to reaffirm what I believe, all of you know very well that I'm a Deist.

Having said that, you Christians seem to think that the only way to God is through the bible. I disagree.

I don't believe that the bible is the word of God, yet I do believe in God. I don't believe in "organized" religion, in one mans opinion about a man written book, but I do believe in God.

So, you decide. According to your "Book of God", I'm going to hell. I guess in the end, we'll see who's right and who's wrong.

I think some of you may be surprised.

Peace out.

Do all paths eventually lead to God? That is the original question. Right?

I don't think that I have to reaffirm what I believe, all of you know very well that I'm a Deist.

Having said that, you Christians seem to think that the only way to God is through the bible. I disagree.

I don't believe that the bible is the word of God, yet I do believe in God. I don't believe in "organized" religion, in one mans opinion about a man written book, but I do believe in God.

So, you decide. According to your "Book of God", I'm going to hell. I guess in the end, we'll see who's right and who's wrong.

I think some of you may be surprised.

Peace out.


But you also don't claim you are any religion, Christian or even believe the Bible.

The question is why do Christians believe that anybody goes to heaven and they believe what they want out of the Bible but don't believe it when the Bible has many verses to the contrary. Either they believe the Bible or they don't as Christians.

The Christians who are making the claim seem to be side tracking onto another topic and avoiding the question.

I do believe that many Christians will be surprised as you say.
Matt 7 even says that.

With all due respect, Tj3, you are side-stepping every issue here.


You seem to have a very low view of God.
I have a very low view of men. Man is flawed. We already know this.

You are assuming then that God intervened in the world as He did in the OT, then with His Son in the NT, then no more since the resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ... except to personally piece together the Bible centuries later.

How can you, as a Christian, be so sure of this? The Bible tells you NOTHING about what the Bible is intended to be or how the Bible was intended to be put together. And just to bring this up now, as you argued below, yes... books of the Bible mention other authors of other books... but this IN NO WAY says ANYTHING about how the Bible should be put together! That is just absurd.



Ho hum - so you read one line and missed everything else. Pretty myopic vision I'd say - have you seen an optometrist? :p


I scanned it looking for relevant information pertaining to the discussion at hand... namely: dates. And that is what I had found. And I don't need an optometrist for once I was blind, but now I see.




Actually, there are many books in the Bible identified by other books in the Bible as scripture, for example the writings of Paul are scripture:

2 Peter 3:14-17
14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
NKJV


Again, I understand that this person mentioned that person and his writings. But this says nothing about the Bible instructing WHOEVER on how to construct the pages of the Bible. It doesn't say that the Bible will include: Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, I & II Corinthians, etc... (thats all the order I could remember off the top of my head).



You really need to take more time at doing your research before coming on here making unvalidated claims (and I have yet to see you validate a single claim).

I don't believe I am making any claims other than stating the obvious and challenging what so many Christians have blindly believed for years. You keep speaking of this "evidence" to prove everything but you have yet to supply any... other than a biased piece written by someone with an opinion. That's hardly evidence.



The problem that we will inevitably run into is the same that occurs here over and over again. You, like so many religious types, refuse to really look at these kinds of questions... be it due to pompousness or fear that what you have blindly believed for so long could be faltered.

Therefore, your responses tend to brush off the question rather than tackling it head on... throwing religious dogma around to attempt to defuse the question... or using the same reference which is being disputed as your "proof".

You have no idea what I believe but you continue to attack my beliefs since I am the one answering the questions.

As for what this all has to do with the OP... the translation, interpretation, and understanding of the Bible is directly related to what the Christian knows about what path or paths can/will/do lead to God. And the problem is just that.

Anyway, I have to bow out for today... and the weekend. Tj3, it is a pleasure to discuss with you... I hope you don't dismiss this as anything less.

To the rest of you, happy hunting!

As Nohelp4u said, why don't you address the verses that I posted earlier rather than keep going down this rathole with inordinate focus on one man.
Why don't you answer the question I asked long ago in this thread, and you have successful avoided?

Can you repeat it so we don't have to reread through 20 pages to figure out which question you are referring to?

Ho hum - so you read one line and missed everything else. Pretty myopic vision I'd say - have you seen an optometrist?
Ah, the ad hominems begin.

This isn't going anywhere.
The question was what do you do with all the verses in the Bible that say not all go to heaven?
How do you interpret them or do you just pretend they aren't in there or what?

If you want to repeat your question we can answer that too, but I am not rereading 20 pages to figure out what it was.

With all due respect, Tj3, you are side-stepping every issue here.

Actually, you are hijacking the thread.


You are assuming then that God intervened in the world as He did in the OT, then with His Son in the NT, then no more since the resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ... except to personally piece together the Bible centuries later.

You haven't been reading what I said, have you. I said nothing about the Bible being stitched together centuries later, That is what I argued against.


I scanned it looking for relevant information pertaining to the discussion at hand... namely: dates. And that is what I had found. And I don't need an optometrist for once I was blind, but now I see.

Then you'd better look again.


Again, I understand that this person mentioned that person and his writings. But this says nothing about the Bible instructing WHOEVER on how to construct the pages of the Bible. It doesn't say that the Bible will include: Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, I & II Corinthians, etc... (thats all the order I could remember off the top of my head).

I said that it was an example, so yes it does tell us many of the books, and we have a great deal more evidence in the early church writings that they already knew what composed the Bible by the end of the 1st century.


You keep speaking of this "evidence" to prove everything but you have yet to supply any...

I supply some evidence and you just ignore and deny.


You have no idea what I believe but you continue to attack my beliefs since I am the one answering the questions.

I am not attacking your beliefs so much as your false claims, lack of validation, refusal to provide any validation and your refusal to look at anything which disagrees with what you want to believe.

Ah, the ad hominems begin.

I note that you omitted the smiley face - why was that I wonder.

Yep this thread has been hijacked and nobody wants to answer the original question.

Why don't you answer the question I asked long ago in this thread, and you have successful avoided?

Yes, what was it?

I have a life outside of here, and most of my day has been working at the computer putting together a very lengthy proposal, so if you posted something 20 pages back, I probably did miss it.

Now that one of the thread hijackers has left, let's try this again:

To WG or anyone else who thinks all paths lead to God:

I'd be interested in hearing how you apply your own personal interpretation to these verses to make them say that there are many ways to be saved other than Jesus.

John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
NKJV

Acts 4:12
12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
NKJV

To WG or anyone else who thinks all paths lead to God:

Please quote where I said that.

You didn't say THAT but by with everything what you keep saying you are implying that that is what you believe.

So are you saying that you do not believe all people go to heaven?

Many verses in the Bible go against that ALL people are going to heaven.

So only real Christians are going. Right?

Here is one of the times I asked it.

You didn't say THAT
Then please stop lying (Tj3 too) and saying I did.

Please quote where I said that.

Here:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/do-all-paths-eventually-lead-god-373748-7.html#post1847525

Then please stop lying (Tj3 too) and saying I did.

SO paraphrasing what somebody is claiming is lying?

So only real Christians are going to heaven right?
Real Christians and people that God has mercy on, people that he chooses.
The Bible says the road is narrow and few go to heaven.

To WG or anyone else who thinks all paths lead to God:

I'd be interested in hearing how you apply your own personal interpretation to these verses to make them say that there are many ways to be saved other than Jesus.

John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
NKJV

Acts 4:12
12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
NKJV

Then please stop lying (Tj3 too) and saying I did.

You may want to stop your false accusations of lying now that I posted the link.

The link didn't take me to what she said,
It took me to a bunch of posts that Athos said.
Which post # is it?

The link didn't take me to what she said,
It took me to a bunch of posts that Athos said.
Which post # is it?

This site is strange - it seems to give different post numbers for different people. Here is what she said in what comes up as post #145 for me:


Quote:
Originally Posted by tickle View Post
If he will only accept christians then that is going against everything I have heard of him.


WG Said: Bingo!

You may want to stop your false accusations of lying now that I posted the link.
Again, you lie by misinterpretation and misrepresentation. That is not what was said.

Again, you lie by misinterpretation and misrepresentation. That is not what was said.

It is right on the site and I copied and pasted it directly. Deny if you will, but that does not look good for you.

You may want to stop your false accusations of lying now that I posted the link.
Thus, you are saying only real Christians will go to heaven. No one else.

Yeah I did use that specifically as a quote in my next reply.

So that takes us back to the question that we have been asking What does she do with ALL the verses that say the road is narrow and few enter.

Many will say Lord, Lord and He will answer depart from me you workers of iniquity.

No one can be saved by the will of man.

You will know them by their fruits

etc...

"If he will only accept christians then that is going against everything I have heard of him" means to you God will accept anyone?

Thus, you are saying only real Christians will go to heaven. No one else.

You said BINGO to this statement:

"If he will only accept christians then that is going against everything I have heard of him."

I note that you did not apologize for your false accusations.

Do I believe that only those who are truly Christian go to heaven? Absolutely - scripture says that that is the only way to be saved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tickle View Post
If he will only accept christians then that is going against everything I have heard of him.


WG Said: Bingo!

You didn't say that?

I even reposted it as your quote from your post

So if we are lying about what you are saying why won't you tell us what it is you do believe so that we can quit misrepresenting your words?

I ask again:

"If he will only accept christians then that is going against everything I have heard of him" means to you God will accept anyone?

There will be only real Christians in heaven?

Yeah I did use that specifically as a quote in my next reply.

So that takes us back to the question that we have been asking What does she do with ALL the verses that say the road is narrow and few enter.

Many will say Lord, Lord and He will answer depart from me you workers of iniquity.

No one can be saved by the will of man.

You will know them by their fruits

etc.....

It seems that she wants to waffle around the issue, suggest that people who are not Christian are saved, and when she gets called on it, deny that she said it.

It appears that she does not want to be clear about it. I think that is why she avoids the question like the plague.

I ask yet again:

"If he will only accept christians then that is going against everything I have heard of him" means to you God will accept anyone?

There will be only real Christians in heaven?

I ask again:

"If he will only accept christians then that is going against everything I have heard of him" means to you God will accept anyone?

There will be only real Christians in heaven?

If you are saying that God does not accept only Christians, then yes it opens the door to potential to mean anyone can be saved.

Now if you are not going to have the integrity to apologize, if you don't believe that, then why not stop beating around the bush.

If they are in heaven then yes they would be real Christians because fake ones would not be of God would they?

Why can't you tell us how you interpret the verses we have asked way before you asked that?

And I asked ----

To WG or anyone else who thinks all paths lead to God:

I'd be interested in hearing how you apply your own personal interpretation to these verses to make them say that there are many ways to be saved other than Jesus.

John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
NKJV

Acts 4:12
12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
NKJV

I ask yet another time:

"If he will only accept christians then that is going against everything I have heard of him" means to you God will accept anyone?

There will be only real Christians in heaven?

You obviously do not want to answer the question about what the verses mean so I give up even bothering with this post. We answered that question now even though you STILL refuse to answer our questions that were asked way before you asked that.

I can't be bothered wasting my time asking you about what you believe when it is obvious you do not want to answer what you believe those verses mean. I don't know if I feel like I am beating a dead horse or a dog chasing its tail. You refuse to answer our question but you keep insisting ''and yet I ask another time ----yet we DID answer your question. You have yet to even attempt to answer the ?
I'm out of here until you can answer the original question.

You obviously do not want to answer the question about what the verses mean so I give up even bothering with this post. We answered that question now even though you STILL refuse to answer our questions that were asked way before you asked that.

I can't be bothered wasting my time asking you about what you believe when it is obvious you do not want to answer what you believe those verses mean. I don't know if I feel like I am beating a dead horse or a dog chasing its tail. You refuse to answer our question but you keep insisting ''and yet I ask another time ----yet we DID answer your question. You have yet to even attempt to answer the ?
I'm out of here until you can answer the original question.
I asked first on one of the early screens. Don't put the onus on me. No, you have not answered me.

A simple yes or no for the two questions will suffice.

A simple yes or no will suffice?

So everything is black and white with you?

Or is it that you can't understand or don't like the answer?

Well I see you aren't answering so... later.

A simple yes or no will suffice?

so everything is black and white with you?

Or is it that you can't understand or don't like the answer?

Well I see you aren't answering so.....later.
You can't even answer with a yes or no? (I was trying to keep it easy for you.)

I thought everything is black or white for YOU.

I ask yet another time:

"If he will only accept christians then that is going against everything I have heard of him" means to you God will accept anyone?

There will be only real Christians in heaven?

I already answered, but I noticed that you continue to ignore my question


To WG or anyone else who thinks all paths lead to God:

I'd be interested in hearing how you apply your own personal interpretation to these verses to make them say that there are many ways to be saved other than Jesus.

John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
NKJV

Acts 4:12
12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
NKJV

I interpolated from your cryptic response that your answers to my questions are:

"If he will only accept christians then that is going against everything I have heard of him" means to you God will accept anyone? Tj3 says Yes, that is what that means.

There will be only real Christians in heaven? Tj3 says Yes, Tj3 says Yes, only real Christians will be there. Christians will be there.

What in the world is so cryptic about Tj's reply?

He replied that there is only one way to God through Jesus so yes only real Christians go.

Now you have your answer from Tj so are you ready to reply how you interpret it?

I interpolated from your cryptic response that your answers to my questions are:

"If he will only accept christians then that is going against everything I have heard of him" means to you God will accept anyone? Tj3 says Yes, that is what that means.

There will be only real Christians in heaven? Tj3 says Yes, only real Christians will be there.

Nothing cryptic - it was straightforward. Now,

To WG or anyone else who thinks all paths lead to God:

I'd be interested in hearing how you apply your own personal interpretation to these verses to make them say that there are many ways to be saved other than Jesus.

John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
NKJV

Acts 4:12
12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
NKJV

Nothing cryptic - it was straightforward. Now,

To WG ... who thinks all paths lead to God
Those are your answers?

She never said that.

Those are your answers?

She never said that.

Sigh - we're back to that again - even though the quotes were brought forward.

It is interesting that you keep refusing to clarify what you believe.

Those are your answers?

She never said that.

She never said that

But she never backed herself up with any different answer either.

So we don't know what it is you believe.

Sigh - we're back to that again - even though the quotes were brought forward.

It is interesting that you keep refusing to clarify what you believe.
First, I have to stop you from accusing me of saying what I did not say. When we are clear on that, we can continue.

She never said that

but she never backed herself up with any different answer either.

So we don't know what it is you believe.

And she did say that she agrees that it is not just Christians who will be saved. So the question is only how many different ways that there are to be saved. We know that it is more than one but she refuses to say how many.

And she did say that she agrees that it is not just Christians who will be saved. So the question is only many different ways that there are to be saved. We know that it is more than one but she refuses to say how many.
Goodbye. Unsubscribed.

First, I have to stop you from accusing me of saying what I did not say. When we are clear on that, we can continue.

I quoted you - if you did not mean to say that, then please state open that you withdraw what you said or clarify what it is that you believe.

Goodbye. Unsubscribed.

The ultimate avoidance of an answer!

Yeah she wants to keep going round and round about what she didn't say but refuses to clarify what she means so maybe it is that she doesn't even know what she believes?

Wow, things went sour in a hurry!

WG, sorry you left. I must admit you are confusing because you seem to be straddling the fence.

Alty, if you are still around, I believe there will be all kinds of people in heaven that we didn't expect and missing plenty that we did expect. But according to the Bible ( I have not other authority in Christianity) there will not be one person in heaven that did not arrive via the Lord Jesus Christ and his finished work.

The ultimate avoidance of an answer!

When in doubt I guess the answer is to walk out. I think Jakester had it right... standing up for Christianity and what Jesus said takes courage!

No way no how!

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed KJV


Phl 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Sndbay,

WHOO HOO! WE agree. I knew it could happen. :p

What gets me is that people get mad that Christians believe they are the only ones that go to heaven yet on the other hand they will complain ''what do I want to go to heaven for it sounds boring''. I wonder why people who are not Christian get annoyed that they have to go through Jesus yet they reject Christ yet they dispute Christians claims about non Christians not getting to go to heaven.

What is it they want!

Nohelp,

What they want I think is their OWN way, what they feel comfortable with. It isn't an easy thing to accept that we are lost, wicked, sinful people that cannont stand in God's presence in that condition. It is easier to think we aren't all that bad.

Yeah the fuzzy feel good doctrine.

Hey, I know I get heated on this topic and I have to keep myself in check. But I remember what the Lord said in the letter to the last church in Revelation. ( he was talking to CHRISTIANS) I will paraphrase it by saying he just wanted them to be hot or cold , but lukewarm, wishy washy, fuzzy wuzzy made him want to spew out of his mouth.

I know what I believe and I don't straddle the fence. I guess it isn't real popular.