When Bush was in office, I remember seeing a lot of complaints on this board that Bush was acting like a dictator. People complained that Bush was tapping phones illegally in a violation of their rights when the NSA was listening in on conversations between foreign terrorists and their contacts in the USA. People complained that Bush was violating their rights because the government had the right to monitor electronic records from libraries under the USA PAtriot Act. They complained that Bush was violating their rights by forcing them to go through extra security at airports. They complained about illegal search and seizure when he tracked and froze the bank accounts of terrorists and terrorist-funding organizations. Bush was becoming a dictator, they complained.

Never mind that all this was done legally AND with the interest of protecting the people of the USA from another 9-11-like terrorist attack. Never mind that there has been no recorded case of any US citizen's rights being violated in any way by these laws and actions. Never mind that the actions of the agencies involved were not indescriminant, and no innocents ever got caught up in these actions. Bush was a dictator and a despot who wanted to control every aspect of our lives... or so people complained.

Yet now we have a President who wishes to control what you drive, how much gas you use in your car, what lightbulbs you can buy, how much you can earn, how much bonus money you can take home at the end of the year, and (through new legislation he is proposing) what you can eat and drink and smoke, He controls two of the three largest auto manufacturers, ten of the twelve largest banks, and the largest insurance company. He is trying to take over your medical insurance as well, and may very well be successful at it, which would give him direct control of the sources of about 20% or more of national GDP. He truly is taking control of literally every aspect of your lives.

Yet we hear not a peep from those who claim to have been afraid of Bush because he was a dictator trying to control our lives.

<Wind rustling in the trees>

<crickets chirping>

<owls hooting>

Where are all the complaints of Presidential Dictatorship now?

Hyporites of the world, unite!!

Elliot

That is the same crowd that still believe he is the messiah or the second coming of Christ. Do you actually expect them to bash him? Elliot you must still be smoking that funny tobacco that grows in the woods and is tended by wild eyed gun toting crazies who have no trust in the governments ability to do better for us than we ourselves can do.:D

That is the same crowd that still believe he is the messiah or the second coming of Christ. do you actually expect them to bash him? Elliot you must still be smoking that funny tobacco that grows in the woods and is tended by wild eyed gun toting crazies who have no trust in the governments ability to do better for us than we ourselves can do.:D

No, I don't expect them to bash Obama the way they attacked Bush even though they have more reason to do so now. That's exactly the point I'm trying to make.

And I don't smoke... asthma. :cool:

Elliot

I believe he also wants to control your home thermostat, how much water you can use for a shower, and require energy efficiency inspections before you can sell your home... and control the media.

Don't forget he's considering expanding unlimited detention for detainees, is continuing renditions and spending us into oblivion... all complaints these people had about Bush.


<Wind rustling in the trees>

<crickets chirping>

<owls hooting>

I'm not around much on line but I've been hearing a lot out here in the real world from people who voted for Obama. I hear many of them are having serious second thoughts and concerns and are even now afraid of the changes Obama is making.

I'm not around much on line but I've been hearing alot out here in the real world from people who voted for Obama. I hear many of them are having serious second thoughts and concerns and are even now afraid of the changes Obama is making.

It's a bit late for buyer's remorse from moderates who voted for Obama. All sales are final. No deposit no return. They voted for him, now they're stuck with him. They made their beds, now they have to sleep in them.

Under normal circumstances, I would have no problem with that. These are the consequences of the actions of the people who voted for him. The only problem is that those of us who didn't vote for him and who knew this was going to happen, who warned about this stuff literally YEARS ago are suffering along with everyone else.

Still, if it causes Americans to wake up and smell the coffee so that we can FIX the problems Obama and his ilk cause, it might just be worth it to suffer for a year or two. I'm just afraid that so much of what Obama does is going to be irreparable or else is going to cost so much money that even our kids and grandkids are going to suffer the consequences. A year or two is a long time, especially when the Dems have a fillibuster-proof majority.

Elliot

Don't you guys have anything better to do on a holiday weekend?

Don't you guys have anything better to do on a holiday weekend?

Yep. Spent the day with my kids playing ball and going out for pizza. They're asleep now, and I'm bored. What's your point?

Elliot

That is the same crowd that still believe he is the messiah or the second coming of Christ.

No, just another politician actually. Pretty much like the so called first Christ. A good politician with the ability to lead and inspire people. Certainly no messiah. Its you guys on the right who tend to get caught up in your religious connotations.

What's your point?
The obvious one.

We didn't get into this mess overnight, and we won't get out of it overnight. Give the guy some slack.

The obvious one.

We didn't get into this mess overnight, and we won't get out of it overnight. Give the guy some slack.

Oh no. I sense a "where was Bush's slack" post coming...

Oh no. I sense a "where was Bush's slack" post coming.....
He got elected a second time. That was his slack. He used it up during the next four years.

YUP, he made his mistakes. But it is now time for Nobama to step up and admit that HIS policies and actions are not working too. He needs to stop the blame game one of these days. Or is the anointed one going to keep blaming the right wing for all of his four years?

YUP, he made his mistakes. But it is now time for Nobama to step up and admit that HIS policies and actions are not working too. He needs to stop the blame game one of these days. Or is the anointed one going to keep blaming the right wing for all of his four years?
We're still in process. Give it time. The Repubs took a few years to get us to this place.

The obvious one.

We didn't get into this mess overnight, and we won't get out of it overnight. Give the guy some slack.

Um, no. If we're supposed to base things on the already tired "we didn't get into this mess overnight, and we won't get out of it overnight" mantra, then why is he trying to solve everything at once? He's biting off a helluva a lot more than Americans should have to chew. Where the heck is the results from his first major initiative, stimulus money? We just lost another half a million jobs. Now he's ramming cap and trade and health care down our throats and NONE of it with the promised time for us to review what they're passing. Jesus people, they don't even know what they're passing because they haven't read it. It's past time for Americans to say hell no... he doesn't deserve any slack.

Um, no. If we're supposed to base things on the already tired "we didn't get into this mess overnight, and we won't get out of it overnight" mantra, then why is he trying to solve everything at once? He's biting off a helluva a lot more than Americans should have to chew. Where the heck is the results from his first major initiative, stimulus money? We just lost another half a million jobs. Now he's ramming cap and trade and health care down our throats and NONE of it with the promised time for us to review what they're passing. Jesus people, they don't even know what they're passing because they haven't read it. It's past time for Americans to say hell no...he doesn't deserve any slack.
And if he sat there on his duff and dithered and threw out a panacea now and then, you'd say, "Man, why is that dude taking his sweet time? We don't have time!"

He got elected a second time. That was his slack. He used it up during the next four years.

You don't have to convince me WG. I totally agree.

You don't have to convince me WG. I totally agree.

Exactly

And if he sat there on his duff and dithered and threw out a panacea now and then, you'd say, "Man, why is that dude taking his sweet time? We don't have time!"

LOL, not me, I'm a firm believer in the less time government spends 'fixing' things the better off we are. Nevertheless, he spent the first month or more of his administration preaching unending doom and gloom about the economy when he should have been cheer leading. That's not asking for a panacea, it's part of his job... not unnecessarily saying the exact things to make people more fearful and protective of their livelihoods and assets at a time when they needed a little confidence. He's doing way too much, way too fast at a cost that's unsustainable and we'd all be fools if we say nothing while he ruins this country.

We're still in process. Give it time. The Repubs took a few years to get us to this place.

The Democrats have been in charge of the purse strings for the past 2 1/2 years. Perhaps if they hadn't wasted their promise to rein in spending on seeking revenge against Bush - and acted on his numerous warnings about Freddie and Fannie - we might not be in this position.

come to think of it you didn't know what freedom was, that's because you had too much of it and you didn't value it. But don't worry when the energy efficient light bulbs start exploding and filling your home with deadly vapour you can remember Bush who only did that sort of thing somewhereelse, and when you have to drive an energy efficient vehicle made in China don't worry they have perfected the Volkswagen, but Elliot, old mate, just remember that Obama isn't on the side of your people the way Bush was, so Israel may have to get real about living with the Palastinians, that is, if Obama doesn't invite them to migrate to the US to balance out the hispanics.:rolleyes:

The obvious one.

We didn't get into this mess overnight, and we won't get out of it overnight. Give the guy some slack.

How much slack should we give him?

In 6 months, he's quadrupled the budget deficit, increased spending 3-fold, increased the national debt by close to 10% for this year alone, and another 30-40% over the next 10 years (so far), taken control of 10 of the top 12 banks, 2 of the top 3 auto makers, and the largest insurance company, and has stated his intention of taking over the health system of this country. He has also passed legislation that tells individuals what lightbulbs they can use, how high they can heat their homes, how much gas they can use in their cars, and how much they can breath before being taxed for their exhalations (yes, that is one of the effects of the Cap & Trade bill), as well as introducing legislation abou what foods you can eat, what drinks you can drink and what you can smoke.

How much more slack can we afford to give him?

Elliot

Since January 20 2009, the Dems have been in charge of the Presidency, the House and the Senate. But the cry of the Dems from day one has been that everything that Obama is doing is the fault of Bush... Bush made Obama do it.

NOW, Obama has a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate.

Do we Republicans now have permission to say that anything that Obama does from this point on is HIS and his alone? Can we stop blaming the actions of this Marxist on his predecessor yet?

Or is it all still Bush's fault, even though Obama is in full control of the government at this point?

Elliot

come to think of it you didn't know what freedom was, that's because you had too much of it and you didn't value it. but don't worry when the energy efficient light bulbs start exploding and filling your home with deadly vapour you can remember Bush who only did that sort of thing somewhereelse, and when you have to drive an energy efficient vehicle made in China don't worry they have perfected the Volkswagen, but Elliot, old mate, just remember that Obama isn't on the side of your people the way Bush was, so Israel may have to get real about living with the Palastinians, that is, if Obama doesn't invite them to migrate to the US to balance out the hispanics.:rolleyes:

Clete,

Yesterday Biden made some comments on the Sunday morning news programs in which he essentially gave tacit approval to Israel to take whatever action they deem necessary vis-à-vis Iran. I don't know if that is Obama's policy (probably not), but Biden essentially said that Israel has the right to take whatever action it deems necessary if it sees and existential threat just as the USA would take any action against what it sees as an existential threat. This is the most pro-Israeli-action statement vis-à-vis Iran that any member of the Obama Admin has made to date.

As far as the two-state option is concerned, there is already a de-facto 2 state situation on the ground. The PA already controls the West Bank and Gaza. Israel already recognizes the PA as the de-facto government of the West Bank and Gaza. The conditions for statehood put forth by Netanyahu (recognition and acceptance of Israel's soveriegnty, rejection of the call for the destruction of Israel and disarmament of the PA, and East Jerusalem is NOT to be made a part of the PA state) are all reasonable conditions. Netanyahu has put something reasonable and negotiable on the table. And as we have seen in the past, the Palestinians won't accept those conditions and won't even negotiate on these conditions, which means there will be no Palestinian state. And it won't be Israel that rejects the idea of a two-state solution. It will be the PA. Obama will be as disappointed by the PA leadership as Clinton was by Arafat, who similarly rejected negotiations in good faith.

So I see no problem.

Elliot

When you lose financial freedom, loss of all the other freedoms will follow.

How far are we from that right now?

Obama hasn't turned his full attention to gun grabbing. YET.

OH but that is next on HIS agenda! The dems are practicing snatch and grab at a far faster pace then any political organization in the history of the World. At this pace, we may have just seen the last Independence day celebration of this country!

Actually, Gal, my opinion is that if we lose our gun rights and gun freedoms, all other freedoms will follow. THAT scares me.

Historically speaking, every government dictatorship began with banning weapons in the hands of civillians. In Germany it was the Nurenburg laws. In Japan, only the Samurai were allowed to carry weapons. In China, only members of the Emperial Government were allowed to go armed. In Midevil Europe, weapons were tightly controlled as well, including the size of the bow you could have to hunt for food and swords were illegal for all except the government leadership and their knights. (That's why the Quarterstaff became the weapon of choice of most peasants of the period.) The Soviet Union controlled gun ownership very tightly as well in order to stay in power.

The Founders, in their wisdom, saw this historical fact --- that governments become despotic by first taking the guns out of the hands of the people --- and specifically wrote the Constitution making it illegal for the government to do so here. They knew what they were doing.

Yes, Obama is trying to take control of every part of our lives. He is controlling us financially through his various spending bills and government power grabs of businesses. He is controlling how we travel (and by extension how FAR we travel) by controlling the price of fuel needed to travel and the conditions under which that fuel is used through his Cap & Trade bill. He is trying to control our lifespan, our access to health coverage, and by extension our very bodies with his nationalization of health care.

But as long as he doesn't control guns, he doesn't control US, because there is always the possibility that if he goes too far and grabs too much power in violation of the Constitution, enough people with guns will band together to stop the power grab.

But if he manages to get his hand on guns and eliminate them from the hands of the people... that is when we are really and truly screwed, because then we will no longer have the power to stop him.

Dangerous ground.

Elliot

The gun grab thing is why the situation in Wyoming (I think) is so interesting. Maybe some one more familiar with that will comment here.

There is something new developing that we all need to learn about. Citizens grand juries at the county level. I don't know enough about it yet to say much, but hope to learn as fast as possible.

Gal

It's in Georgia

The citizen's grand jury by the 'birthers' will have the same impact as the impeachment forums run by Dennis Kuchinich.

But for anyone interested here is the website

Barak Obama A.K.A. Barry Soetoro is illegal POTUS (http://www.riseupforamerica.com/)

You people are down right spooky. You going to start stock piling your weapons, grow all your own food, and build your compound?
Paranoid and coo-coo. That is how you are coming across.

QZj8DDGRq78

Also:

"Well, regarding President Obama and guns, he did at one point say he was in favor of the reinstatement of the Federal Assault Weapons Ban (Beck, Hannity, and O'Reilly went nuts for a while about it), but since that died in committee, he has said he will not pursue it any further. Given how irrational that particular piece of legislation was, I can understand some concern (I even had some myself), but since it is dead, we're in the clear for now.

The rest of it seems to be just irrational fear."

You people are down right spooky. You going to start stock piling your weapons, grow all your own food, and build your compound?
Paranoid and coo-coo. That is how you are coming across.

Just exactly who do you mean by "you people?"

NK, what does Bush making a joke have to do with anything and who the heck are you quoting?

And also, what did he mean by this?


"It's not surprising they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

Who sounds "down right spooky" and "coo coo" there?

You people are down right spooky. You going to start stock piling your weapons, grow all your own food, and build your compound?
Paranoid and coo-coo. That is how you are coming across.

I'm paranoid and coo-coo because I support the 2nd Amendment... just as the Founding Fathers did?

Supporting the Constitution is evidence of a mental disorder?

I guess in Obama-land where Obama-mania runs free, it is.

Where I come from, handing all your freedoms and personal responsibilities to the government in the name of "fairness" is off-the-wall crazy. But I guess in Obama-Land that is considered "normal".

Seems to me that the assylum is being run by the inmates... and you don't even recognize it.

One day we are going to wake up in the USSA (United Socialist States of Amerika) and you will wonder why food costs so much and there is so little of it, and why you can't see a doctor because the lines are too long, and why you can't afford to heat your home, and why so much of what you earn goes to the government, and why your car has only a 5-gallon gas tank but you still can't afford to fill it up, and why your car get's 300 miles to the gallon but you can't afford to travel 300 miles, and why you can't get a loan from the bank, and why your pharmacist has all the competence of your postman. You will wonder when the world changed so much and how you could ever have supported this stuff.

And it will be too late for me to say, "Told you so."

But I'm the one who's coo coo for supporting what it says in the Constitution and for having an understanding of its basis in history.

Elliot.

NK, what does Bush making a joke have to do with anything Bush isa president joking about wanting to be a dictator and this thread title talks about presidential dictatorship - you see no link there at all?


and who the heck are you quoting?A comment from another site that I found interesting. I don't like to plagiarize.

And also, what did he mean by this?
Who sounds "down right spooky" and "coo coo" there?Americans sound cooky with their crazy notion that they need to have personal weapons to assure their protection. They are the only industrialized nation on earth that believes this is a requirement.

Just exactly who do you mean by "you people?"

You people that are making these post. What is not clear about that? Which people did you think I was referring to?

Bush isa president joking about wanting to be a dictator and this thread title talks about presidential dictatorship - you see no link there at all?

No, I see a tremendous difference between a president joking about being a dictator and one working toward that end.


A comment from another site that I found interesting. I don't like to plagiarize.

You also apparently don't like to cite the source. The question was "who" were you quoting, your answer just told us the obvious... someone else. I knew that much already.

You people that are making these post. What is not clear about that? Which people did you think i was referring to?

"These posts?" Do you have a problem with being specific? I'm not saying anything "coo coo" or "spooky" and I don't know what all "these posts" are you consider "coo coo." I want to know specifically who you think is "spooky" and "coo coo."

Americans sound cooky with their crazy notion that they need to have personal weapons to assure their protection. They are the only industrialized nation on earth that believes this is a requirement.

I realize you don't get it NK, but it's as simple as simple can get... it is our constitutional right to keep and bear arms. That right is the best guarantee we have of protecting the rest of our rights.

No, I see a tremendous difference between a president joking about being a dictator and one working toward that end. Here's the definition (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dictator): "1 a: a person granted absolute emergency power ; especially : one appointed by the senate of ancient Rome b: one holding complete autocratic control c: one ruling absolutely and often oppressively."
Prove that he is doing that.



You also apparently don't like to cite the source. The question was "who" were you quoting, your answer just told us the obvious...someone else. I knew that much already.It wasn't the source that mattered it was the content - you taught me that. I see you have no answer to the fact that your precious 2nd amendment is in no danger.

I realize you don't get it NK, but it's as simple as simple can get....it is our constitutional right to keep and bear arms. That right is the best guarantee we have of protecting the rest of our rights.
I got that. I also get that you are the only nation that seems to "cling" to it; makes you seem all savage and primitive.

I'm paranoid and coo-coo because I support the 2nd Amendment... just as the Founding Fathers did?

Supporting the Constitution is evidence of a mental disorder?

I guess in Obama-land where Obama-mania runs free, it is.

Where I come from, handing all your freedoms and personal responsiblities to the government in the name of "fairness" is off-the-wall crazy. But I guess in Obama-Land that is considered "normal".

Seems to me that the assylum is being run by the inmates... and you don't even recognize it.

One day we are going to wake up in the USSA (United Socialist States of Amerika) and you will wonder why food costs so much and there is so little of it, and why you can't see a doctor because the lines are too long, and why you can't afford to heat your home, and why so much of what you earn goes to the government, and why your car has only a 5-gallon gas tank but you still can't afford to fill it up, and why your car get's 300 miles to the gallon but you can't afford to travel 300 miles, and why you can't get a loan from the bank, and why your pharmacist has all the competence of your postman. You will wonder when the world changed so much and how you could ever have supported this stuff.

And it will be too late for me to say, "Told you so."

But I'm the one who's coo coo for supporting what it says in the Constitution and for having an understanding of its basis in history.

Elliot.

Yes, that is correct, you are one of the coo-coos. You have a fixation on doomsday scenarios.
I'm just glad I don't live in your head.

Here's the definition (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dictator): "1 a: a person granted absolute emergency power ; especially : one appointed by the senate of ancient Rome b: one holding complete autocratic control c: one ruling absolutely and often oppressively." Prove that he is doing that.

I think Elliot covered that pretty well already. Bush's joke is still irrelevant.


It wasn't the source that mattered it was the content - you taught me that.

Oh really? I doubt you'll find many if any that cite their source more than I do.


I see you have no answer to the fact that your precious 2nd amendment is in no danger.

I don't believe it was I making the argument that it was in danger, but I know what he's said and I know his history of gun control legislation he supports.

I got that. I also get that you are the only nation that seems to "cling" to it; makes you seem all savage and primitive.

Yeah, I'd rather be "savage and primitive" and still have my rights than to be pompous and arrogant.

But I'm the one who's coo coo for supporting what it says in the Constitution and for having an understanding of its basis in history.
And who's going to assemble and organize the mighty militia made up of gun owners? (No one is taking away your rights any longer, by the way.)

All this talk of guns and liberty can only exist in a nation ruled by the gun. In enlightened places people don't need to be armed to feel secure and there is no need for fear of revolution to keep the government in check. You use your Constitution to reinforce your paranoia, I suppose it can only be expected in a nation that has seen two violent revolutions but if you spent more time curbing your opportunists you might find you don't need the gun to enforce freedom

All this talk of guns and liberty can only exist in a nation ruled by the gun. In enlightened places people don't need to be armed to feel secure and there is no need for fear of revolution to keep the government in check. You use your Constitution to reinforce your paranoia, I suppose it can only be expected in a nation that has seen two violent revolutions but if you spent more time curbing your opportunists you might find you don't need the gun to enforce freedom

Ding ding ding, we have a winner folks! Well put paraclete.

I got that. I also get that you are the only nation that seems to "cling" to it; makes you seem all savage and primitive.

I know, it's down right embarrassing.:o

"These posts?" Do you have a problem with being specific? I'm not saying anything "coo coo" or "spooky" and I don't know what all "these posts" are you consider "coo coo." I want to know specifically who you think is "spooky" and "coo coo."

Well, it started getting weird around post 22, followed by 25, 26, 27.

Then it picked back up with posts 36 and 42

Our Congress gave him the permission to do whatever he needed to do to straighten out the mess we made. Even the supreme court got a little worried and stopped the sale of one of the auto makers, or delayed it, Fiat was going to buy it. I lost track of all he has done but we should voice our opinions, not wait for the government to turn 100% Nationalist, or Socialist, same thing. A socialist government has to have a Dictator. I do not think we as the people of the US would put up with a dictator for long. How long will it be before we see in the US streets what happened in Iran?

If our health care is Socialized by what he wants to do, we are in big trouble. Our health care system supports more small businesses than any other business. All those Doctors offices, Medical supply stores, Pharmacies, and on and on. And small businesses are what is keeping America alive. If we take them out, what's left? That's my opinion.

Our Congress gave Obahma the permission to do whatever he needed to do to straighten out the mess we made. Even the supreme court got a little worried and stopped the sale of one of the auto makers, or delayed it, Fiat was going to buy it. I lost track of all he has done but we should voice our opinions, not wait for the government to turn 100% Nationalist, or Socialist, same thing. A socialist government has to have a Dictator. I do not think we as the people of the US would put up with a dictator for long. How long will it be before we see in the US streets what happened in Iran?

If our health care is Socialized by what he wants to do, we are in big trouble. Our health care system supports more small businesses than any other business. All those Doctors offices, Medical supply stores, Pharmacies, and on and on. And small businesses are what is keeping America alive. If we take them out, what's left? That's my opinion.

Well, it started getting weird around post 22, followed by 25, 26, 27.

then it picked back up with posts 36 and 42

I think my other question was "who" specifically do you think is coo coo? Since you specified Elliot does he constitute the entirety of "you people?" Come on, name all the "coo coo" people you're referring to.

I know, it's down right embarrassing.:o

Our constitutional rights of over 200 years are embarrassing? It figures you would find our rights embarrassing. Samuel Adams and Benjamin Franklin didn't think so...


"I. Natural Rights of the Colonists as Men.

Among the natural rights of the Colonists are these: First, a right to life; Secondly, to liberty; Thirdly, to property; together with the right to support and defend them in the best manner they can. These are evident branches of, rather than deductions from, the duty of self-preservation, commonly called the first law of nature...."

"... In short, it is the greatest absurdity to suppose it in the power of one, or any number of men, at the entering into society, to renounce their essential natural rights, or the means of preserving those rights; when the grand end of civil government, from the very nature of its institution, is for the support, protection, and defence of those very rights; the principal of which, as is before observed, are Life, Liberty, and Property. If men, through fear, fraud, or mistake, should in terms renounce or give up any essential natural right, the eternal law of reason and the grand end of society would absolutely vacate such renunciation. The right to freedom being the gift of God Almighty, it is not in the power of man to alienate this gift and voluntarily become a slave... "

Samuel Adams and Benjamin Franklin didn't think so...Dead people... in a society far different than now.

Cozyk likes nothing better than to stir the pot. It is far easier to block her completely than to get upset over nonsense comments from her fingers.

Dead people...in a society far different than now.

Ah, ol' Ben is irrelevant and Sam is good for nothing more than a beer label now? I consider it timeless wisdom, only you would you argue it's just "dead people" in a different society. Let's just toss the constitution and write a new one. I'm sure the brilliant Mr. Obama and his sidekick Ramblin' Joe Biden can come up with something far better.

Gal

it's in Georgia

The citizen's grand jury by the 'birthers' will have the same impact as the impeachment forums run by Dennis Kuchinich.

but for anyone interested here is the website

Barak Obama A.K.A. Barry Soetoro is illegal POTUS (http://www.riseupforamerica.com/)

Not sure Tom, but this may not be the same thing that I heard about at the rally Saturday.

Actually, Gal, my personal opinion is that if we lose our gun rights and gun freedoms, all other freedoms will follow. THAT scares me.

Historically speaking, every government dictatorship began with banning weapons in the hands of civillians. In Germany it was the Nurenburg laws. In Japan, only the Samurai were allowed to carry weapons. In China, only members of the Emperial Government were allowed to go armed. In Midevil Europe, weapons were tightly controlled as well, including the size of the bow you could have to hunt for food and swords were illegal for all except the government leadership and their knights. (That's why the Quarterstaff became the weapon of choice of most peasants of the period.) The Soviet Union controlled gun ownership very tightly as well in order to stay in power.

The Founders, in their wisdom, saw this historical fact --- that governments become despotic by first taking the guns out of the hands of the people --- and specifically wrote the Constitution making it illegal for the government to do so here. They knew what they were doing.

Yes, Obama is trying to take control of every part of our lives. He is controling us financially through his various spending bills and government power grabs of businesses. He is controlling how we travel (and by extension how FAR we travel) by controlling the price of fuel needed to travel and the conditions under which that fuel is used through his Cap & Trade bill. He is trying to control our lifespan, our access to health coverage, and by extension our very bodies with his nationalization of health care.

But as long as he doesn't control guns, he doesn't control US, because there is always the possibility that if he goes too far and grabs too much power in violation of the Constitution, enough people with guns will band together to stop the power grab.

But if he manages to get his hand on guns and eliminate them from the hands of the people... that is when we are really and truly screwed, because then we will no longer have the power to stop him.

Dangerous ground.

Elliot

Hasn't happened down under here. Last time I checked Japan and Germany were doing just fine too. Along with almost the rest of the civilised world where gun control laws are in place.

Meanwhile I noticed another mass shooting in Miami overnight. 12 people was it?? Terrible shame.

But I appreciate the difference in culture and the ingrained train of thought with respect to guns in the US. No probs!

But your effort to insist that us countries with gun control laws are somehow now under complete government control is just downright wrong.

Do you think we are a bunch of idiots down here or what? Completely incapable of defending any right we have because we aren't all walking around with shotguns down our pants?

No one here cares that they can't go shopping with a handgun tucked in their purse just in case they need it to shoot down some lunatic on a shooting spree. They don't care because we don't have the lunatics on the shooting spree to begin with. And we don't buy the BS that we need guns to defend our legal rights.

No, I see a tremendous difference between a president joking about being a dictator and one working toward that end.




Well OK then Steve. It must be time... If you actually feel that Obama is working towards dictatorship then get out the guns. Start a rebellion. Why not nip it in the bud early. Don't let it get to that. After all that is why you have your guns isn't it? Come on. Put your money where your mouth is and start shooting. This dictator wannabe needs to learn you guys isn't going to bend over.

If approximately half the US people oppose Obama as you guys have shown, then that should be more than enough people to start the rebellion now. Stock up your guns and start shooting before the dictator takes them from you. That would seem the logical thing to do if I were you guys.

P.S. I am not being sarcastic. Im trying to follow you guys train of thought.

I realize you don't get it NK, but it's as simple as simple can get....it is our constitutional right to keep and bear arms. That right is the best guarantee we have of protecting the rest of our rights.

I would argue your best guarantee to this is democracy and the election process. For a man of God you really have little faith in human kind and the country you live in if you feel that a killing machine is your best guarantee of protection.

I've said it before but this massive cultural difference you guys share to pretty much the rest of the industrialised / civilised world is something I actually feel sorry for you about.

Or is it all still Bush's fault, even though Obama is in full control of the government at this point?Hello El:

Yes, it is. You don't really expect the momentum to turn around simply because he got some programs underway??

You DO?? Dude! Bush broke it soooo badly, that it's going to take more than a couple months to fix. Give it a little time. Really.

excon

Hello El:

Yes, it is. You don't really expect the momentum to turn around simply because he got some programs underway???

You DO??? Dude! Children have no patience. Most adults learn it. Try it. It's GOOD!

excon

Actually yeah. Come to think of it I remember lots of posts in the past where it has been mentioned that in time Bush will be remembered as one of the great Presidents. After all he kept you safe from all those nasty Muslims. But the general conception was to give it time and Bush's achievement and presidency will be looked at far more favourably than it was whilst he was in power.

They expect us to wait years to appreciate Bush's greatness but they won't give Obama 12 months..?. :confused:

Well ok then Steve. It must be time... If you actually feel that Obama is working towards dictatorship then get out the guns. Start a rebellion. Why not nip it in the bud early. Dont let it get to that. After all that is why you have your guns isnt it?? Come on. Put your money where your mouth is and start shooting. This dictator wannabe needs to learn you guys aint gonna bend over.

If approximately half the US people oppose Obama as you guys have shown, than that should be more than enough people to start the rebellion now. Stock up your guns and start shooting before the dictator takes them from you. That would seem the logical thing to do if i were you guys.

P.S. I am not being sarcastic. Im trying to follow you guys train of thought.These guys have a serious case of keyboard courage. All tough talk on anonymous internet boards but inactive pansies in real life.

Hello again:

The problem is the righty's don't like to see democracy in action unless it's THEIR action. So, they snivel and call names like dictator and socialist and they say noooo a lot.

My 3 year old granddaughter acts more adult than that.

excon

You DO?? Dude! Bush broke it soooo badly, that it's going to take more than a couple months to fix. Give it a little time. Really.
Excon
I am concerned but not ready to start shooting. How about just raising a little verbal H. by writing some letters, directly to Obahma and let him know what we are worried about, see what his answers are and let our representatives know how we are feeling about all this hoopla.

I like Obahma just fine but he is human and "ruler" of our Great Country. That's got to be a power trip like none ever experienced before. He should be tempted if he's normal, but he is very intelligent too. If anyone objected when he steps a little out of line I bet he would step right back in. I think we should write letters and blogs and voice our objections. We have to save health care.
I didn't know they were talking about something as silly as gun control on top of all the things we have to worry about. When did they start that?

Hasn't happened down under here. Last time I checked Japan and Germany were doing just fine too. Along with almost the rest of the civilised world where gun control laws are in place.

Meanwhile I noticed another mass shooting in Miami overnight. 12 people was it??? Terrible shame.

But I appreciate the difference in culture and the ingrained train of thought with respect to guns in the US. No probs!!

But your effort to insist that us countries with gun control laws are somehow now under complete government control is just downright wrong.

Do you think we are a bunch of idiots down here or what? Completely incapable of defending any right we have because we aren't all walking around with shotguns down our pants??

No one here cares that they can't go shopping with a handgun tucked in their purse just in case they need it to shoot down some lunatic on a shooting spree. They don't care because we don't have the lunatics on the shooting spree to begin with. And we don't buy the BS that we need guns to defend our legal rights.

Thank you for speaking up and setting them straight. It's the gun loving, gun toting, rifle in the back window of the truck types I was talking about being embarrassed about. Needing guns to defend our legal rights? Ridiculous,

Well ok then Steve. It must be time... If you actually feel that Obama is working towards dictatorship then get out the guns. Start a rebellion. Why not nip it in the bud early. Dont let it get to that. After all that is why you have your guns isnt it?? Come on. Put your money where your mouth is and start shooting. This dictator wannabe needs to learn you guys aint gonna bend over.

If approximately half the US people oppose Obama as you guys have shown, than that should be more than enough people to start the rebellion now. Stock up your guns and start shooting before the dictator takes them from you. That would seem the logical thing to do if i were you guys.

P.S. I am not being sarcastic. Im trying to follow you guys train of thought.

Exactly, I couldn't have said it better myself.

I would argue your best guarantee to this is democracy and the election process. For a man of God you really have little faith in human kind and the country you live in if you feel that a killing machine is your best guarantee of protection.

I've said it before but this massive cultural difference you guys share to pretty much the rest of the industrialised / civilised world is something I actually feel sorry for you about.

Just want you to know, not ALL Americans are as wacky as it seems by the posts you are seeing here.

Cozyk,

I know you aren't all wacky. Just 50&#37; or so of you :)

In fact I've had a pretty detailed debate with Elliot and others on guns previously. Its here somewhere in the archives. Although I don't agree I've come to accept that our cultures have given us very differing mindsets on guns and freedom. We are at complete loggerheads on the issue and that's fine. Sadly guns seem as much apart of American life as McDonalds or Baseball.

Gun ownership is a right in your country under the constitution, which I'm sure will never be given up. And I kind of agree with Ex when he says that one shouldn't argue for one right whilst at the same time let another right be taken from you. I'm certainly no expert on the US constitution, but it was written in very different times to today and I find it hard to agree that guns should play such a major role in what essentially should be a peaceful country. Again, Elliot will argue that gun ownership is what keeps it peaceful. Again, I completely disagree. I need look no further to the multiple countries I have visited throughout the world with gun control laws that are completely safe and its people free and happy (Japan and Germany included).

Again, I completely disagree. I need look no further to the multiple countries I have visited throughout the world with gun control laws that are completely safe and its people free and happy (Japan and Germany included).

Why is it that you conveniently ignore the crime problems in the UK? They are only one of the latest countries to ban private gun ownership and now only the criminals have guns. Riot sticks are no match for a 9MM.
When you take the gun rights of private citizens only the criminals will have guns.

Why is it that you conveniently ignore the crime problems in the UK? They are only one of the latest countries to ban private gun ownership and now only the criminals have guns. Riot sticks are no match for a 9MM.
When you take the gun rights of private citizens only the criminals will have guns.
What do private gun-owning citizens do to prevent crime? Is there a vigilante group I don't know about? My NRA husband nearly shot a neighbor who came to the door at 11 p.m. to borrow a couple of eggs, and, in a half-awake state, whipped out his pistol from under the mattress when I came to bed one night. (That pistol is no longer loaded and is now in a safe place.) Based on my literature review, gun owners/guns in the home cause far more injuries and death to non-criminals than to criminals.

What do private gun-owning citizens do to prevent crime? Is there a vigilante group I don't know about? My NRA husband nearly shot a neighbor who came to the door at 11 p.m. to borrow a couple of eggs, and, in a half-awake state, whipped out his pistol from under the mattress when I came to bed one night. (That pistol is no longer loaded and is now in a safe place.) Based on my literature review, gun owners/guns in the home cause far more injuries and death to non-criminals than to criminals.

So true, I'm hearing about some "accidental" shooting just about every day. And I hate it when pro-gun people say... Guns don't kill people, people kill people.


Well, then there are too many idiotic people that own guns. If anything regulations should be stricter. I've seen and heard of way too many deaths due to these people.

Why is it that you conveniently ignore the crime problems in the UK? They are only one of the latest countries to ban private gun ownership and now only the criminals have guns. Riot sticks are no match for a 9MM.
When you take the gun rights of private citizens only the criminals will have guns.

The fact that you are an armed society doesn't seem to prevent crime in your country. If guns make people so safe then why is the US ranked higher than the UK in murders per capita not to mention most if not all other crimes?

I don't agree with your argument.

Cosyk
I do not believe gun control has anything to do with our discussion of presidential dictatorship. That shooting in Miami would have happened with or without gun control laws. And with or without gun control laws it was still a crime.

It sure would be nice if someone had a good idea of how to save the health care problem without turning to a Socialist government. What about a plan like Medicare that would give those who needed it healthcare, If they needed more than the basics, buy a supplemental policy. Anyone got any idea's?

What about a plan like Medicare that would give those who needed it healthcare, If they needed more than the basics, buy a supplemental policy.
No one is talking socialism government.

I thought the whole idea already is to frame the healthcare system around Medicare. Those who need health care can buy into one of its plans (and yes, seniors DO pay something for it). If that person wants better/additional coverage, go supplemental with a private plan, just like is done now. Workers who are covered by their employer may continue in that plan, if they wish. There will be choices.

Meanwhile, the health insurance companies are suggesting that people should be subsidized so that they can afford private insurance. But who or what will do the subsidizing?

Well OK then Steve. It must be time... If you actually feel that Obama is working towards dictatorship then get out the guns. Start a rebellion. Why not nip it in the bud early. Don't let it get to that. After all that is why you have your guns isn't it? Come on. Put your money where your mouth is and start shooting. This dictator wannabe needs to learn you guys isn't going to bend over.

If approximately half the US people oppose Obama as you guys have shown, then that should be more than enough people to start the rebellion now. Stock up your guns and start shooting before the dictator takes them from you. That would seem the logical thing to do if I were you guys.

P.S. I am not being sarcastic. Im trying to follow you guys train of thought.


From our Declaration of Independence.


Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security.

We are not at the stage of absolute despotism yet and there are remedies still to change our government to one more our liking within the framework of our laws .


I would argue your best guarantee to this is democracy and the election process.

Yes it is and that is why we have not had that revolution . We are more than happy to work within the system .But gun ownership is part of that social compact. In dictatorships no one is permitted to own a gun.

Well ok then Steve. It must be time... If you actually feel that Obama is working towards dictatorship then get out the guns. Start a rebellion. Why not nip it in the bud early. Dont let it get to that. After all that is why you have your guns isnt it?? Come on. Put your money where your mouth is and start shooting. This dictator wannabe needs to learn you guys aint gonna bend over.

If approximately half the US people oppose Obama as you guys have shown, then that should be more than enough people to start the rebellion now. Stock up your guns and start shooting before the dictator takes them from you. That would seem the logical thing to do if i were you guys.

P.S. I am not being sarcastic. Im trying to follow you guys train of thought.

Here we go with the "you guys" thing again. Which guys? The subject of this post was the silence among those that complained of Bush's tyranny now that Obama is vastly expanding the government's role. That he is doing so can't be denied and the silence among those Bush critics is deafening. That is the point of this thread I believe and what I addressed. I didn't make this about guns, but I'm not shy about defending our rights and the reasons behind them.

I agree that elections and the democratic process are the best and preferred remedy, but not the best 'guarantee.'

I would argue your best guarantee to this is democracy and the election process. For a man of God you really have little faith in human kind and the country you live in if you feel that a killing machine is your best guarantee of protection.

I've said it before but this massive cultural difference you guys share to pretty much the rest of the industrialised / civilised world is something I actually feel sorry for you about.

That's a good point Skell, my faith is obviously not in man and as a believer that is as it should be. I still have to live here on earth however, and I agree with the founders that it is our natural right to have the means to defend our rights, our properties and our families. Weapons have been a part of that for millennia, they've just changed with the times and most of the time they never have to be used. We're not like sitting around waiting on a chance to blow someone away.

These guys have a serious case of keyboard courage. All tough talk on anonymous internet boards but inactive pansies in real life.

LOL, can you say pot calling the kettle black?

Thank you for speaking up and setting them straight. It's the gun loving, gun toting, rifle in the back window of the truck types i was talking about being embarrassed about. Needing guns to defend our legal rights? Ridiculous,

I'm still waiting for you to name names since you were addressing us. But it's nice to know you hold the same condescending attitude as Obama about us bitter gun lovin', bible thumpin' rednecks.

I'm still waiting for you to name names since you were addressing us. But it's nice to know you hold the same condescending attitude as Obama about us bitter gun lovin', bible thumpin' rednecks.

That is indeed how you come across. YOUR words.

That's a good point Skell, my faith is obviously not in man and as a believer that is as it should be. I still have to live here on earth however, and I agree with the founders that it is our natural right to have the means to defend our rights, our properties and our families. Weapons have been a part of that for millenia, they've just changed with the times and most of the time they never have to be used. We're not like sitting around waiting on a chance to blow someone away.So you're saying that your god is OK with armed insurrections? Wow, that no different than militants islamists.

Yes, that is correct, you are one of the coo-coos. You have a fixation on doomsday scenarios.
I'm just glad I don't live in your head.

My "fixation" on doomsday scenarios only exists because these things have happened before... not all that long ago either. We have seen democratic nations turn into dictatorships before, and many have resulted in the deaths of millions. The Nazi Third Reich was born from one of the most openly democratic and enlightened nations in history. Cuba was once the Riviera of Latin America. Lebanon was once the Riviera of the Middle East. All of these were enlightened countries with lots of personal civil rights, and every one of them ended up a dictatorship because people said that it could never happen and ignored those who warned them otherwise.

Kind of like you are trying to ignore me...

The parallels between what happened in those countries and what we are seeing now are quite stark if you take the time to compare them.

But you won't take the time to make that comparison because you are so enamoured of this President and his promises... many of which he has already broken, though you can't see that either.

I am a student of history and a trained professional analyst. You are a drone caught up in the Obama-mania. I work based on logic and fact. You work based on emotion and promisses. I see the patterns emerging from this President and the ways in which it is similar to our past. You see the glow of Obama's visage and are caught up in the cheer-leading.

That is why I seem coo-coo to you. You can't understand how anyone can possibly NOT be enamoured by Obama. But the REALITY of what he is doing doesn't match the glow, and eventually the glow won't be quite so bright, and you'll wonder how you could have missed what is so obvious to others.

Just keep in mind, doomsday scenarios have taken place in our history before. If I am laying out a doomsday scenario, perhaps you should look deeper into whether the scenario is possible and how to avoid it. Just ignoring the possibility is the surest way to make sure that the doomsday scenario comes to pass.

The Jews of Hitler-era Europe were caught off guard by the Third Reich. They had been warned decades earlier of the possibilities of something like what Hitler was planning by the likes of Jabotinsky, Hertzle and others, but they were ignored. "It could never happen here," was what most Jews of Europe said. Even after the Jews of Germany and Austria were thrown in the Death Camps, the Jews of Poland and Hungary continued to say "It could never happen here". They ignored the warnings, ignored the possibility of the doomsday scenario set forth by Theodore Hertzle and Ze'ev Jabotinsky.

At least look at the doomsday scenario before you reject it. Test and analyze to see if the possibility exists before you reject it. ANd if the possibility DOES exist, then at least see if there is anything you can do to prevent or mitigate that risk. But ignore it at your own peril.

See the facts for what they are:

Our President has nationalized 10 of the 12 largest banks in the USA.
He has nationalized 2 of the 3 largest auto makers in the USA.
He has nationalized the largest insurance company in the USA.
He has passed laws that tax you for breathing, control how much energy you use to heat your home, and what lightbulbs you use.
He is attempting to take control of the health care industry through creation of a government single-payer system.
He is in the process of creating legislation that controls the amount of sugars, fats and carbs you eat, and how restaurants prepare the food they sell.
He is creating legislation that caps executive salaries for ALL companies and limits bonuses.
He has increased taxes to the middle class (despite promisses not to do so) along with the rich.
He is increasing welfare programs so as to take the money he gets from the rich and middle class in the form of taxes and redistribute it to the poor.
And he has created a national debt so high that our grandchildren will be paying it off, which essentially makes us, our children and our grandchildren serfs of the state by controlling them through a debt they can never pay off. (This is serfdom at its most basic... debt was how the lords controlled the serfs in the Middle Ages.)

All of these are facts. They are not "scenarios". They are not made up. These things are happening now. Look at them and tell me that you don't see a disturbing pattern in all these actions. Follow that pattern to it's logical conclusion. Do it with an open mind and an eye on history.

Then tell me TRUTHFULLY what you think of the pattern you are seeing.

If you have the guts to look at it truthfully and with an open mind.

But I doubt you do.

Elliot

All of these are facts. They are not "scenarios". They are not made up.
Yes they are made up. For instance explain to me how he taxes your breathing.

[/B]That is indeed how you come across. YOUR words.

Cozy, out of respect for I'll refrain from mentioning how you come across. Still waiting for you to name names however.

Good summary to what is/has happened in the last 100 or so days under the dictatorship of the Nobama administration. Just hope that in 1-1/2 years this insanity can be stopped with a new congress and in 3-1/2 years we can put an end to the total madness in the WH.

Yes they are made up. For instance explain to me how he taxes your breathing.

It is called Cap and Trade!

Yes they are made up. For instance explain to me how he taxes your breathing.

Cap & Trade taxes carbon emissions. Carbon emissions include carbon emitted as carbon dioxide from human resparation. Energy companies are taxed for carbon levels in the air. They pass that tax on to the consumer. Consumers are therefore taxed for what carbon they emit when they breath, as well as what carbon they emit when they heat their homes and drive their cars. We are being taxed for breathing!!

The problem is that you haven't read the Cap & Trade bill. That's why you don't know about this stuff. But don't feel too bad. The members of Congress who voted for it didn't read it eather... they weren't given the time to do so. The bill is 1200 pages long, and they had less than a week to digest the information in it and the 300 pages of revisions that were handed in the night before the vote took place. So it isn't surprising that most people don't know about this stuff. But it IS a fact that we are now going to be taxed for our breathing, nonetheless.

Elliot

What do private gun-owning citizens do to prevent crime? Is there a vigilante group I don't know about? My NRA husband nearly shot a neighbor who came to the door at 11 p.m. to borrow a couple of eggs, and, in a half-awake state, whipped out his pistol from under the mattress when I came to bed one night. (That pistol is no longer loaded and is now in a safe place.) Based on my literature review, gun owners/guns in the home cause far more injuries and death to non-criminals than to criminals.

Results after the first ten years of Texas' concealed carry law:


Texas Land Commissioner Jerry Patterson

When the Texas Concealed Handgun Law took effect in 1996, pundits and naysayers predicted anarchy. Any minute, there would surely be mass violence as armed Texas citizens began roving the streets settling arguments with gunfire. Certainly, several proclaimed, within a year there would be blood in the streets as Texas returned to the days of the Wild West.

Ten years later the facts paint a different picture. Texas under the Concealed Handgun Law isn’t the Wild West, but the Mild West. No recurrent shootouts at four-way stops, no blood in the streets. Quite the contrary, Texans are safer than before.

But why are we safer? Why did the fears of the naysayers fail to materialize?

One of the reasons I authored Senate Bill 60, the Concealed Handgun Law, was because I trust my fellow Texans. Contrary to opinions expressed on almost every editorial page across the state, I knew that when law-abiding Texans’ constitutional right to keep and bear arms was restored with the passage of S.B. 60, they would exercise good judgment and behave responsibly.

Ten years later, and the statistics continue to prove the point.

Since the passage of the Concealed Handgun Law, the FBI Uniform Crime Report shows an 18% drop in handgun murders, down from 838 in 1995 to 688 in 2004. And a 32% drop in handgun murders per 100,000 population, down from 4.5 murders per 100,000 Texans in 1995 to 3.08 per 100,000 in 2004.

If I find more recent stats I'll post them as well.

Cap in Trade taxes carbon emissions.
That's not taxing your breathing.

The fact that you are an armed society doesnt seem to prevent crime in your country. If guns make people so safe then why is the US ranked higher than the UK in murders per capita not to mention most if not all other crimes?

I dont agree with your argument.

It's made us safer in Texas (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/presidential-dictatorship-371576-10.html#post1840292).

PS. Here's the link (http://www.chlpp.com/news.html) I forgot on that previous post.

That's not taxing your breathing.

If they are taxing carbon dioxide emissions, and carbon dioxide emissions come from your breathing, then they are taxing your breathing. Like it or not, that is a fact.

I know it would be easier to ignore that little fact. I know it would be more pleasant to forget that the single largest source of carbon dioxide is human resparation, not industry. But you can't ignore facts.

They are taxing carbon dioxide. You exhale carbon dioxide. Ergo, they are taxing your breathing.

Please, NK, explain to me how Cap & Trade is NOT taxing our breathing.

Elliot

So you're saying that your god is ok with armed insurrections? Wow, that no different than militants islamists.

Think about it NK, what I did was differentiate between my spiritual beliefs and the reality of living in a secular society.

That's not taxing your breathing.


If you don't want to sit down and try and digest all 1200 plus pages of this piece of garbage, then do some research on line and see what experts are saying about it's effects on people/companies in the USA. Even the proponents are saying this piece of trash will take billions out of the economy of this country. This in a time of recession/depression that few alive have ever witnessed before. Raising taxes does not work. More government does not work.

Please, NK, explain to me how Cap & Trade is NOT taxing our breathing.How are they going to measure the carbon dioxide coming out of your body in order to tax you?

Here we go with the the "you guys" thing again. Which guys? The subject of this post was the silence among those that complained of Bush's tyranny now that Obama is vastly expanding the government's role. That he is doing so can't be denied and the silence among those Bush critics is deafening. That is the point of this thread I believe and what I addressed. I didn't make this about guns, but I'm not shy about defending our rights and the reasons behind them.

I agree that elections and the democratic process are the best and preferred remedy, but not the best 'guarantee.'

'You guys' who feel that guns are your best guarantee against the government. You referred to it. Not me!

How are they going to measure the carbon dioxide coming out of your body in order to tax you?

NK, that's just a perfect example of how the "far righties" lose their credibility by exaggerating. They also seem to know how I feel about Obama , Worship? The Messiah?
They use all these "over the top" descriptions that don't apply to me at all.:cool:

Yet now we have a President who wishes to control what you drive, how much gas you use in your car, what lightbulbs you can buy, how much you can earn, how much bonus money you can take home at the end of the year, and (through new legislation he is proposing) what you can eat and drink and smoke, . He controls two of the three largest auto manufacturers, ten of the twelve largest banks, and the largest insurance company. He is trying to take over your medical insurance as well, and may very well be successful at it, which would give him direct control of the sources of about 20&#37; or more of national GDP. He truly is taking control of literally every aspect of your lives.

Yet we hear not a peep from those who claim to have been afraid of Bush because he was a dictator trying to control our lives.


Elliot

I agree these are the same people that insist our rights are not being taken away.
Yet I see it everyday. They have slowly boiled like the frog that is put in the cold water and slowly turn up the heat. He boils to death because he doesn't feel the gradual heating of the water.

They think these changes are for the good but most are just taking away rights so we have more government rule.

Most of the things they want actually are worse than what we have. The CLF light bulb, the cloth bags and many other things have proven to be worse than what we have.

Give it another 7 yrs, things are worse and they will still be saying our rights are not taken away.

NK, that's just a perfect example of how the "far righties" lose their credibility by exaggerating. They also seem to know how I feel about Obama , Worship? The Messiah?
They use all these "over the top" descriptions that don't apply to me at all.:cool:

And you won't specify who you think is coo coo, it doesn't apply to me at all so I'm still waiting for you to name names.

'You guys' who feel that guns are your best guarentee against the government. You referred to it. Not me!!

Did you miss the part where "I said I didn't make this about guns?" I was just responding to others.

Maybe it is sites like this and the media making him into something that he is not that cause Obama to be equated with the messiah and worship

Messiah, The Church of Obama -- Worship, Hope, Change (http://www.messiahobama.info/)

Steve,

Did you not say that Obama was heading towards dictatorship?

And did you not say that the right to bear arms represents your best guarantee against such dictatorships?

It's there in your posts. I don't need to link to them cause you're an honest guy.

I was merely posing the question that IF Obama is heading towards dictatorship, then WHY don't you use your best guarantee against him becoming one?

I'm only trying to follow your logic Steve. Elliot's too. You know? "You guys" :)

Steve,

Did you not say that Obama was heading towards dictatorship?

If you're referring to this (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/presidential-dictatorship-371576-4.html#post1839199) it was to make a point about how irrelevant NK's post was. I certainly have concerns about Obama's power grabs but I'm not out of touch with reality as the BDS sufferers were.


And did you not say that the right to bear arms represents your best guarantee against such dictatorships?

I said it was the best guarantee to protect the rest of our rights... but I added that "elections and the democratic process are the best and preferred remedy." There is a difference.


It's there in your posts. I don't need to link to them cause you're an honest guy.

I was merely posing the question that IF Obama is heading towards dictatorship, then WHY don't you use your best guarantee against him becoming one?

Tom answered (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/presidential-dictatorship-371576-8.html#post1839977) that sufficiently.


I'm only trying to follow your logic Steve. Elliot's too. You know? "You guys" :)


And I'm trying to follow the logic that thinks some long established, well reasoned constitutional rights should be done away with. But more than that, I'm waiting for this to return to the original subject.

Hello Steve:

I don't know if THIS is the point of this post, but I think so...

You guy's, who ordinarily disdain politically correct speech, are sure changing the English language to suit you...

You call democratically elected leaders dictators. You call a coup the Constitutional removal of a dictator who happened to be democratically elected. And, you call hypocrites hyporites.

excon

cozy, out of respect for I'll refrain from mentioning how you come across. Still waiting for you to name names however.

The names would be the authors of the post I listed. I'm not going back to look them up but since you are obsessed with the names, you can do it.

I honestly don't believe that I am coming across as I should. I admit that I get a chip on my shoulder when extremest spout their stuff. I need to step back and regroup.:o

And I'm trying to follow the logic that thinks some long established, well reasoned constitutional rights should be done away with. But more than that, I'm waiting for this to return to the original subject.

I don't think it should be. I've conceded that before. It is too ingrained in your culture.

And Steve it is on original subject.

Elliot asked "and where are all the complains about Presidential Dictatorship now"?

My questions were based on that. If you guys really feel he is a dictator, I was asking what your response would be. And you have given it to me.

I dont think it should be. I've conceded that before. It is too ingrained in your culture.

And Steve it is on original subject.

Elliot asked "and where are all the complains about Presidential Dictatorship now"?

Right, still waiting for those complaints... that's the point. After complaining - generally with no merit whatsoever - about Bush being a dictator, planning to establish a theocracy, canceling the election, destroying our rights, etc. it's awfully quiet now that Obama is doing many of the same things these people were complaining about under Bush. I'm not saying that he's now a dictator, but he is definitely pushing legislation that will have more control over our lives, not to mention the government ownership in private business. You can't deny that. So where are the hypocrites that whined about Bush now? That is the subject of this post.

it's awfully quiet now that Obama is doing many of the same things these people were complaining about under Bush. I'm not saying that he's now a dictator, but he is definitely pushing legislation that will have more control over our lives, not to mention the government ownership in private business. You can't deny that. So where are the hypocrites that whined about Bush now? That is the subject of this post.

I totally agree. I was saying it is awfully quiet now that Obama hasn't done any of the promised changes yet.
Where are the 6 hundred thousand jobs he promised to create?
How many people are out of work because of the changes he made in the auto industry and other businesses?
Where is all this stimulus tax that was suppose to fix things? I have seen some of those changes but as an over all whole NOT
Why hasn't he stopped the war(s) so that ONE more American life didn't end?
What happened to his claim that if he didn't go through with his promises within 100 days he would step down?
Why hasn't anything changed for the better?

I totally agree. I was saying it is awfully quiet now that Obama hasn't done any of the promised changes yet.
Where are the 6 hundred thousand jobs he promised to create?
How many people are out of work because of the changes he made in the auto industry and other businesses?
Where is all this stimulus tax that was suppose to fix things? I have seen some of those changes but as an over all whole NOT
Why hasn't he stopped the war(s) so that ONE more American life didn't end?
What happened to his claim that if he didn't go through with his promises within 100 days he would step down?
Why hasn't anything changed for the better?

I can answer that for them, the answer I keep seeing is it took a while for Republicans to get us in the mess so give him time. Hogwash, I'm not going to sit idly by while the Dems put us in a deeper hole.

Yeah we'll give them time and still
My psychic prediction is the same now as it will prove to be in 5 to 7 yrs... NO change for the better.

You call democratically elected leaders dictators. You call a coup the Constitutional removal of a dictator who happened to be democratically elected.
And you are in a looking glass world .
The actions taken by the Honduran Congress, Supreme Court and military, were taken under the rule of Honduran law .
What Manuel Zelaya was doing in forcing an unconstitutional referendum to give him a lifetime appointment was the illegal coup attempt .

yeah we'll give them time and still
My psychic prediction is the same now as it will prove to be in 5 to 7 yrs... NO change for the better.

Saw an interesting graph yesterday...

http://michaelscomments.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/stimulus-vs-unemployment-june-dots.gif?w=460&h=280


The light blue line represents what the Administration said we'd see if we did absolutely nothing. The dark blue line is what Obama said the stimulus would do.

The red dots, however, are reality (http://confederateyankee.mu.nu/archives/289402.php)...

And yet no one has chimed in about the latest opinion polls on his job. In Ohio alone his approval rating has plummeted 14&#37; in only two months. Think of it, at that rate in only 7 months his job approval rating will be ZERO!!

Hello 450:

Every time I was hired to fix a screwed up company, I started very popular. But, by the time I fixed things, not too many people liked me. But, I wasn't hired to be liked. I was hired to FIX things, and I did.

Is Obama fixing things? It's too soon to tell.

I'm talking simply about the economy, though. He HAS gone a long way to restoring our badly damaged reputation in the world.

excon

Ahhh but the trillion dollar stimulus bill that Nobama said had to be passed in two days otherwise the economy would melt down. What has happened to that? NOTHING!!
Less than 7&#37; of it has been spent now four months later. If HE had all these shovel ready jobs where are these jobs that they promised? I sit here unemployed for going on six months because of the way our government has screwed up the economy. Yes, I blame both parties. But if you look closely at what has happened since congress was taken over by one party it is pretty clear to any clear thinking individual who was mainly to blame.

Ahhh but the trillion dollar stimulus bill that Nobama said had to be passed in two days otherwise the economy would melt down. What has happened to that? NOTHING!!!
Less than 7% of it has been spent now four months later. If HE had all these shovel ready jobs where are these jobs that they promised? I sit here unemployed for going on six months because of the way our government has screwed up the economy. Yes, I blame both parties. But if you look closely at what has happened since congress was taken over by one party it is pretty clear to any clear thinking individual who was mainly to blame.
The stimulus money is available. I'm guessing the state governments are to blame for hanging on to or not even claiming funds. Washrooms are to be rehabbed at our village hall, but nothing has happened yet. County roads need fresh paint on dividing lines. Nothing is being done. Illinois has survived an idiot governor and has a new one now. Maybe I'll give him a call.

Then why is there momentum for a new bucket list when as predicted ,the 1st one is a bust ?

yeah we'll give them time and still
My psychic prediction is the same now as it will prove to be in 5 to 7 yrs.....NO change for the better.

You have psychic predictions?

Hello 450:

Every time I was hired to fix a screwed up company, I started very popular. But, by the time I fixed things, not too many people liked me. But, I wasn't hired to be liked. I was hired to FIX things, and I did.

Nobody is talking about Obama's popularity. We're talking about his effectiveness. We're talking about the fact that what he has been doing is similar to what Bush did in many instances, but on a much larger scale, and yet nobody who complained about Bush is complaining about Obama.

You were hired to fix things, and I'm sure you did a wonderful job at it. But Obama wasn't elected to fix things... he was elected to CHANGE them. Huge difference.


Is Obama fixing things? It's too soon to tell.

Really? OK, what would be the appropriate time to judge whether he's fixing things or not?


I'm talking simply about the economy, though. He HAS gone a long way to restoring our badly damaged reputation in the world.

Excon

Really? In what way?

What I see is a President who has been taking such socialist actions in the US economy that world leaders of socialist countries are complaining that he's acting too socialist. I see him meeting with Russian bigwigs like Putin and getting lectured like a little schoolboy... and just sitting there and taking it. And THEN he goes out and makes speeches at Moscow University about how the USA and Reagan were NOT the impitus for the fall of the Soviet Union and the end of the Cold War. I see him giving interviews about how people like Lech Wallesa were more important to the fall of the USSR than Reagan, even though in a letter from Wallessa, he stated himself tha Reagan was the responsible party. Obama is acting like a pansy on the world stage. He's letting world leaders treat him like a child. He's allowing other countries to dictate the state of our military preparedness. He's trying to negotiate with dictators who have no intention of negotiating in good faith.

Let's not forget that the real reason the Obama went to Russia was to negotiate permission to transport military ground equiment through Russian territory into Afghanistan. He not only failed in that mission (or rather he negotiated a deal with so many caveats that we will never be able to meet them) but he also ended up negotiating a nuclear disarmament treaty that strongly favors Russia over the USA. He folded like a wet towel.

Bush may have been hated around the world. They may have hated him for his military actions in Iraq and Afghanistan. MAYBE. It seems that at least a few leaders followed him. But I'll grant you that he wasn't well liked at all in many circles.

But Obama is a lightweight, and he's proving it over and over again. Oh, sure, all the world leaders like him. They like him the way they like a clown... good for a laugh. He's becoming the laughingstock of the international community for his naïveté, willingness to kowtow, and the quickness with which he becomes an apologist.

Excon, you can look at Obama and say that he's improving our image in the world all you want. The facts on the ground say different.

But I know I shouldn't confuse you with the facts. Let's just give him time to do more of the same... regardless of the consequences of those actions.

Watch what they do, not what they say... and what Obama is doing is both laughable and scary at the same time.

Elliot

The stimulus money is available. I'm guessing the state governments are to blame for hanging on to or not even claiming funds. Washrooms are to be rehabbed at our village hall, but nothing has happened yet. County roads need fresh paint on dividing lines. Nothing is being done. Illinois has survived an idiot governor and has a new one now. Maybe I'll give him a call.

Wondergirl,

So you agree that the stimulus bill was a dud because the money hasn't gone where it was supposed to go... either because of greedy states or because the funds were never properly distributed. Or perhaps they were distributed, but the proposed stimulus projects never happened anyway. For whatever reason, the stimulus failed.

Do you now believe that we should do more of the same? Or are you yet convinced that the stimulus bill was a mistake that wasted money and stimulated nothing... just as we conservatives predicted it would be.

And if it was a mistake, who's fault was that mistake? Does any of the blame for this mistake go to Obama? Or is it someone else's fault?

Elliot

Wondergirl,

So you agree that the stimulus bill was a dud because the money hasn't gone where it was supposed to go... either because of greedy states or because the funds were never properly distributed. Or perhaps they were distributed, but the proposed stimulus projects never happened anyway. For whatever reason, the stimulus failed.

Do you now believe that we should do more of the same? Or are you yet convinced that the stimulus bill was a mistake that wasted money and stimulated nothing... just as we conservatives predicted it would be.

And if it was a mistake, who's fault was that mistake? Does any of the blame for this mistake go to Obama? Or is it someone else's fault?

Elliot
The stimulus bill was fine. The allocation was fine. It's not over yet. The projects will get done. Rome wasn't built in a day. Patience is a virtue. All things come to those who wait. Sit tight and buckle your seat belt. Have faith.

The stimulus bill was fine. The allocation was fine. It's not over yet. The projects will get done. Rome wasn't built in a day. Patience is a virtue. All things come to those who wait. Sit tight and buckle your seat belt. Have faith.

Sorry, I know too much history to have faith. I already know how this plays out. We've already seen it in the Great Depression, and it dragged the economy through 8 years of economic ruin, saved only by a war and the need to put the economy on a wartime footing. We don't have any wars big enough to stress our entire economy and put us into a wartime-production mode. So that little safety net is out the window.

The only faith I have is in the Invisible Hand of the free market. I have absolutely none in the Iron Gauntlet of statism and government-central-planning.

Elliot

Sorry, I know too much history to have faith. I already know how this plays out. We've already seen it in the Great Depression, and it dragged the economy through 8 years of economic ruin, saved only by a war and the need to put the economy on a wartime footing. We don't have any wars big enough to stress our entire economy and put us into a wartime-production mode. So that little safety net is out the window.

The only faith I have is in the Invisible Hand of the free market. I have absolutely none in the Iron Gauntlet of statism and government-central-planning.

Elliot
Obama is a capitalist. Never fear. (It's been only a few months. Why are you so impatient? I bet you used to try to peek into birthday gifts too when you were a boy. Maybe you still do.) We will come out of those 8 years of ruin.

I've just been reading that Obama wants his treaties to take effect BEFORE Congress ratifies them.

Seems kind of dictatorial to me.

Since the issue of guns was raised in this thread this is a timely piece. The state of Texas along with 32 other states (http://www.bizjournals.com/austin/stories/2009/07/06/daily18.html) has filed an amicus brief with SCOTUS in support of a Chicago man that lives in a high crime neighborhood and wants to own a gun for protection. The brief reads in part:


“The right to keep and bear arms under the Second Amendment is not just a ‘fundamental’ liberty interest. In the Anglo-American tradition, it is among the most fundamental of rights because t is essential to securing all our other liberties. The Founders well understood that, without the protections afforded by the Second Amendment, all of the other rights and privileges ordinarily enjoyed by Americans would be vulnerable to governmental acts of oppression

33 states agree with me on the essential nature of the 2nd amendment in protecting our other rights. Where this fits in the subject of this thread is this, in many ways Obama is as excon calls him, an incrementalist. He has a history of supporting anti-gun legislation in spite of his rhetoric in support of the 2nd amendment since he became presidential candidate and now President Obama. He also likes to distract us and sneak in policy initiatives and such in late Friday dumps when it gets lost in the news cycle. He wants you to be watching one hand when you should be watching what he’s doing with the other hand.

Flash back to March when he nominated Harold Koh to be legal adviser to the State Department. Koh was confirmed in late June.


Koh believes that U.S. should “establish a national firearms control system and a register of manufacturers, traders, importers and exporters” of guns to comply with those international obligations.

Specifically, Koh is a supporter of the “Inter-American Convention Against the Illicit Manufacturing of and Trafficking in Firearms, Ammunition, Explosives, and Other Related Materials.” He argues that the Convention requires states “to standardize national laws,” that “the only meaningful mechanism to regulate illicit transfers is stronger domestic regulation,” and that “supply-side control measures within the United States” are essential. The administration has recently announced it will ask the Senate to ratify the Convention (http://blog.heritage.org/2009/05/06/the-second-amendment-vs-international-law/).

Koh delivered a speech on “how to implement back door gun control in the face of a populace who believes that they have a Constitutional right to own a firearm.”

Make your own conclusions... but watch both of Obama's hands.

Right, still waiting for those complaints...that's the point. After complaining - generally with no merit whatsoever - about Bush being a dictator, planning to establish a theocracy, canceling the election, destroying our rights, etc. it's awfully quiet now that Obama is doing many of the same things these people were complaining about under Bush. I'm not saying that he's now a dictator, but he is definitely pushing legislation that will have more control over our lives, not to mention the government ownership in private business. You can't deny that. So where are the hypocrites that whined about Bush now? That is the subject of this post.

Well I suppose it's a two way street. You want to hear people complain about Obama the same way they did about Bush and they want to hear you defend Obama the same way you defended Bush.
After all, as you put it Obama is only doing what Bush did and you defended him. So why now do you have a problem with Obama? Why don't you defend him?

Or are you just as big a hypocrite as the hypocrites that whinged about Bush?

But Obama is a lightweight, and he's proving it over and over again. Oh, sure, all the world leaders like him. They like him the way they like a clown... good for a laugh. He's becoming the laughingstock of the international community for his naivete, willingness to kowtow, and the quickness with which he becomes an apologist.

Excon, you can look at Obama and say that he's improving our image in the world all you want. The facts on the ground say different.

But I know I shouldn't confuse you with the facts. Let's just give him time to do more of the same... regardless of the consequences of those actions.

Watch what they do, not what they say... and what Obama is doing is both laughable and scary at the same time.

Elliot

So you have facts to back up your claims that the world's leaders are laughing at him? Please provide them?

Well i suppose its a two way street. You wanna hear people complain about Obama the same way they did about Bush and they wanna hear you defend Obama the same way you defended Bush.

Afterall, as you put it Obama is only doing what Bush did and you defended him. So why now do you have a problem with Obama?? Why dont you defend him?

Skell, I gave Obama the benefit of the doubt early on. I have acknowledged things he has done right such as continuing some of the Bush policies he said he wouldn't even if in slightly different form. I have acknowledged Bush's mistakes such as his failure to restrain spending and the first porkulus bill. I can be fair about things.

There was an extraordinary amount of foaming at the mouth out of the left over Bush policies that Obama is continuing, did their objections change once a liberal Democrat came to power? What they hated before is OK now? I'm being consistent, my view of what's happening hasn't changed because the party in power did.

Steve I see your point and take in on board other than to say that I'm pretty sure 'reasonable' people gave it a little longer than a few months before they frothing of the mouth started over Bush.

Skell, I gave Obama the benefit of the doubt early on.
It's still early on.

I respect the fact that once in office, Obahma saw that Bush did some things right and swallowed his pride and did what was the best thing to do at the time and continued with the plan. Congress gave him the power to do what he could to avert disaster with the economy. He is not looking to be a dictator so far as I know but circumstances are leaning towards making that job assessible. It has been leaning that way for quite a few years. It's not a sudden change. We have to tell them we have noticed and we care or they will take the easiest path. A letter or two will do it. From each of us. We are the people and we have to stick up for ourselves.

I looked up the definition of Socialism and Nationalism. I never should have done it.

It's still early on.

As Yogi might say... it's getting late earlier these days

They are already giving limp wristed excuses as to why the economy has not begun to even bottom out yet. The stimulus bucket list is a lie if all that is being done with the money is propping up State budgets so they don't have to make needed cuts.
It is a lie if they are only repaving roads instead of building new infrastructure .

Now some Dems claim they need more even as you claim they have not spent the money wisely or in a timely manner .

Look ,the economy will recover with or without stimulus spending . All the spending has done is set up a scenario where the recovery will be sluggish when it comes. How do I know this ? Well ;as Eliot pointed out ;we've seen this show before. It is clear that all the "work projects " of the Depression era did nothing to help the economy recover . In fact it prolonged the depression .I'd even go further and make the claim that had there not been WWII Roosevelt would've left office a complete failure after 2 terms.

Exactly Tom
I said from the get go when I heard some of what the stimulus money was paying for that it wasn't going to benefit anybody as far as more jobs, just the bureaucrats.
Not the small business man or the average worker.

Steve I see your point and take in on board other than to say that im pretty sure 'reasonable' people gave it a little longer than a few months before they frothing of the mouth started over Bush.

Sorry my friend, but as ex would say... BWA HA HA HA!

The foaming at the mouth began the day after the 2000 election and he's still being blamed for things happening today.

Floridagate (http://archive.democrats.com/display.cfm?id=239)

exactly Tom
I said from the get go when I heard some of what the stimulus money was paying for that it wasn't going to benefit anybody as far as more jobs, just the bureaucrats.
Not the small business man or the average worker.

While nice I suppose, we're getting portions of a highway resurfaced. They do that every few years as it is already. Know how our city is spending its 'stimulus' money? We're replacing older traffic signal bulbs with LED's. Save the city some money sure, but the only one it's going to stimulate is the folks selling them the lights. The city traffic dept is certainly not going to add more workers to change bulbs.

While nice I suppose, we're getting portions of a highway resurfaced. They do that every few years as it is already. Know how our city is spending its 'stimulus' money? We're replacing older traffic signal bulbs with LED's. Save the city some money sure, but the only one it's going to stimulate is the folks selling them the lights. The city traffic dept is certainly not going to add more workers to change bulbs.

EXACTLY!
All smoke and mirrors by all these projects going on now. It still is not the average business owner or us nobody Joe's that are benefiting. Even so it comes out of our pocket one way or another.

Obama is a capitalist. Never fear. (It's been only a few months. Why are you so impatient? I bet you used to try to peek into birthday gifts too when you were a boy. Maybe you still do.) We will come out of those 8 years of ruin.


First of all, how impatient were you when Bush was elected in 2000? From the day Bush took office, people complained about how he was ruining the country, how he stole the election and a whole bunch of stuff that was simply not true. How impatient was the left under Bush?

I, on the other hand, am looking at specific actions, policies and statements of Obama and critiquing them.

Second, on what basis are you saying that Obama is a capitalist? He has nationalized 10 of the top 12 banks, 2 of the top 3 auto makers, the largest insurance company, and is trying to nationalize the entire healthcare industry. That is socialism. And that's before you even consider the socialist effects of cap & trade in terms of government-controls over industry. The entire stimulus bill is socialism. He is trying to use government money to create jobs through make-work programs. That is socialism. Government bailouts of companies is socialism. The Welfare programs that are growing under Obama are socialism. On what basis are you saying that Obama is a capitalist? What capitalist action has he taken since being elected President? (Aside from signing a multi-million-dollar book deal BEFORE he took office, which happens to be an ethics violation. That was pretty capitalist of him. But how does that help the country?) What piece of legislation, action, or statement from Obama leads you to believe that he's a capitalist and in favor of free markets?

You are throwing out platitudes about capitalism, Wondergirl, with no hard evidence to back it up.

Wake up, girl. Obama is no capitalist. His father was a socialist economist and senior economic official in Kenya who openly pushed for (and got) a socialist economy, and Obama takes after the old man. (Note how well Kenya's economy is doing under socialism.) Obama's own statements and actions support socialism. He IS a socialist, whether he admits it publicly or not. His actions prove that point.

Now... if you want to argue that socialism is a better system, fine. We can have that argument. But to say that Obama isn't a socialist when every action he's taken so far is pushing a socialist agenda and every statement he's made pushes a socialist agenda, is just plain silly and ignores the facts.

Elliot

First of all, how impatient were you when Bush was elected in 2000?
I'm a Republican and gave Bush every hope to succeed. Plus, he's a good-looking guy :).

President Obama is not a socialist, and is not leading our government into socialism. If you say that, you do not know what socialism is.

Here's some more stimulus nonsense and another Obama jewel in his promise of ending the influence and corruption in Washington, he's spending $18 million on redesigning the Recovery website. The contract went to some Steny Hoyer contributors (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/Hoyer-linked-firm-will-do-Recoveryorg-redesign-50353982.html).

$18 million for a website??

Additionally, "Counties that supported Obama last year have reaped twice as much money (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2009-07-08-redblue_N.htm) per person from the administration’s $787 billion economic stimulus package as those that voted for his Republican rival, Sen. John McCain, a USA TODAY analysis of government disclosure and accounting records shows. That money includes aid to repair military bases, improve public housing and help students pay for college."

No worries though, "There's no politics at work when it comes to spending for the recovery," White House spokesman Robert Gibbs says.

And yeah, it's still early on...

http://hotair.cachefly.net/images/2009-07/rass-pi-070909.jpg

I'm a Republican and gave Bush every hope to succeed. Plus, he's a good-looking guy :).

President Obama is not a socialist, and is not leading our government into socialism. If you say that, you do not know what socialism is.

Sociaslism: Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy. (Socialism. (n.d.). The American Heritage&#174; Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition.)

To repeat:

Obama has taken control of ten of the top 12 banks in the USA
Obama has taken control of 2 of the top 3 car companies in the USA
Obama has taken control of the largest insurance company in the USA
Obama is attempting to take control of the health care system
The House passed the Cap & Trade bill, which regulates and controls industry

In what way is this NOT socialism. If the government substantially owns and controls the auto industry including it's methods of production and distribution, the banks and the methods by which they provide services, the largest insurance company and the methods by which it provides services, and controls the rules under which industry produces it products and health companies deliver their services, how is that NOT socialism?

If you can possibly say that What Obama is doing isn't socialism, then it seems pretty clear to me that you don't know what socialism is. Because what Obama is doing is the TEXTBOOK DEFINITION of socialism.

Elliot

My last post (And yeah, it's still early on... ) originally had an image from the latest Rassmussen poll. I don't know what happened to it, but hopefully here it is again...

Obama has taken control of ten of the top 12 banks in the USA
Obama has taken control of 2 of the top 3 car companies in the USA
Obama has taken control of the largest insurance company in the USA
Obama is attempting to take control of the health care system
The House passed the Cap & Trade bill, which regulates and controls industry

Temporarily, not permanently. Big difference.

Temporarily, not permanently. Big difference.

He's only temporarily taking control of the health care system and Cap & Trade?

He's only temporarily taking control of the health care system and Cap & Trade?
As a "socialistic" move.

Wondergirl, your signature suggestions reminded me of a recent Huffpo blog (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jonathan-daniel-harris/do-it-yourself-ideas-for_b_219888.html) that suggested some fresh ideas for Obama's service project. "Organize a canned food drive at work," "Join local teachers in protesting budget cuts" and "Film a documentary about a local subject." Protesting and filming documentaries are 2 of the first things that come to mind to serve others? How pathetic, lol.

As a "socialistic" move.

So we're headed for a "temporary" socialism?

Temporarily, not permanently. Big difference.

Really? How do you know that?

This is the same President who refused to take back TARP money when offered by the banks because it would take them out of government control. That doesn't sound very "temporary" to me. It sounds like a guy trying to hang on to the power he has grabbed.

Nationalizing health care... is that also supposed to be "temporary"? Is Cap & Trade a temporary law?

This isn't TEMPORARY socialism Wondergirl, and the sooner you wake up to that fact, the sooner you will realize what is really going on here.

Elliot

As a "socialistic" move.

Are you really so blind? Can you not see that this is Obama's big chance to grab as much as he can and NEVER let it go?

There is nothing temporary about his nationalization of these companies. Even if he de-nationalizies the banks, he's going to create so many banking regulations that the government will still be in de-facto control of them anyway. It will still be government control of the banks through regulatory authority. Ditto for AIG and the Auto companies.

And he'll never give up control of health care once he has it. Cap & Trade is a fate accompli in perpetuity if we're not careful.

There is nothing temporary about it. This is PERMANENT damage he's doing.

Elliot

Are you really so blind? Can you not see that this is Obama's big chance to grab as much as he can and NEVER let it go?

There is nothing temporary about his nationalization of these companies. Even if he de-nationalizies the banks, he's going to create so many banking regulations that the government will still be in de-facto control of them anyway. It will still be government control of the banks through regulatory authority. Ditto for AIG and the Auto companies.

And he'll never give up control of health care once he has it. Cap & Trade is a fate accompli in perpetuity if we're not careful.

There is nothing temporary about it. This is PERMANENT damage he's doing.

Elliot
Naw. Relax. It will all be okay. Ssssshhhhh, go to sleep now. Lalalalalalalalalala...

Naw. Relax. It will all be okay. Ssssshhhhh, go to sleep now. Lalalalalalalalalala........

Can you get any more condescending?

That's the problem now, girl.

The American public has been asleep for far too long already!

Speaking of asleep, it sure sounds like the administration hopes we are (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/Put-nothing-in-writing-Browner-told-auto-execs-on-secret-White-House-CAFE-talks-50260677.html).


Carol Browner, former Clinton administration EPA head and current Obama White House climate czar, instructed auto industry execs "to put nothing in writing, ever" regarding secret negotiations she orchestrated regarding a deal to increase federal Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) standards.

Rep. James Sensenbrenner, R-WI, is demanding a congressional investigation of Browner's conduct in the Café talks, saying in a letter to Rep. Henry Waxman, D-CA, that Browner "intended to leave little or no documentation of the deliberations that lead to stringent new CAFE standards."

Federal law requires officials to preserve documents concerning significant policy decisions, so instructing participants in a policy negotiation concerning a major federal policy change could be viewed as a criminal act.

More hope and change from the most transparent administration ever. If this true Browner needs to be gone... now.

Can you get any more condescending?
I was trying to be funny.

I was trying to be funny.
Sadly it is not funny! Far too many people have been lulled into a stupor by the smoke and mirrors put forth in the last 18 or so months by the democratic party. Pretty faces only go so far and if the latest polls in Ohio are to be believed at least some people are finally waking up. Even though it is too late for a lot of aspects of this country that we used to take for granted.

There have been changes we don't want for longer than 18 months. Our mind set is "What is the Government going to do about it" or "Why doesn't the Government stop them?" Seems like we are asking for the Government to run our lives.We are mostly adults, why do we need government to tell us right and wrong decisions. If there is no law against it we just keep on doing it until we destroy ourselves. For instance, we have to have laws to tell us not to use contaminated water in our water bottles, Not to run sewers and garbage into our streams and rivers, Don't sell the medication that might kill people. Be clean about food preparation for the public. No, The government has to pass an enforcible law before we'll stop and do it right and then we can blame the government for not doing it sooner.

Sadly it is not funny! Far too many people have been lulled into a stupor by the smoke and mirrors put forth in the last 18 or so months by the democratic party. Pretty faces only go so far and if the latest polls in Ohio are to be believed at least some people are finally waking up. Even though it is too late for a lot of aspects of this country that we used to take for granted.
We gave Bush two years. Be as gracious for Obama.

There have been changes we don't want for longer than 18 months. Our mind set is "What is the Government going to do about it" or "Why doesn't the Government stop them?" Seems like we are asking for the Government to run our lives.
YOU and I are the government.

There have been changes we don't want for longer than 18 months. Our mind set is "What is the Government going to do about it" or "Why doesn't the Government stop them?" Seems like we are asking for the Government to run our lives.We are mostly adults, why do we need government to tell us right and wrong decisions. If there is no law against it we just keep on doing it until we destroy ourselves. For instance, we have to have laws to tell us not to use contaminated water in our water bottles, Not to run sewers and garbage into our streams and rivers, Don't sell the medication that might kill people. be clean about food preparation for the public. No, The government has to pass an enforcible law before we'll stop and do it right and then we can blame the government for not doing it sooner.
Guess you did not understand my comments. I was speaking of more and bigger government, nationalism of our businesses and socialized health care. Those plans have been in the works for years. But it has not been until the past 18 or so months that an all dumbocratic run congress and now an ineffectual president have they been able to put forth all of their agenda.
When Government takes over business is that not socialism pure and simply. One needs only look to Russia and what happened there to see where we are headed in a New York minute!

YOU and I are the government.

Not if you give up control to them.

Yes, in a republic or a democracy, the people are the government. However, if you give up your rights, including your right to choose, your rights over what you earn, what you produce, what you may consume, etc. then the people are no longer the government. If that happens the government becomes primary and WE become secondary.

That is the risk of not exerting control TODAY and just allowing a President to nationalize stuff... of "giving him a chance" when what he is doing with that chance is to decrease our freedoms.

Your argument hits the nail right on the head. WE are the government... but only as long as we excersize our control over our rights.

Elliot

I was trying to be funny.

Ummm, you failed. Because the problem is that too many people in government are trying to keep us asleep, and it's very serious when they do that.

We gave Bush two years. Be as gracious for Obama.

Which two years were those?

I seem to remember that as soon as he was elected the legality of that election was brought into question IMMEDIATELY. Too many people didn't even let him take office before jumping on the anti-Bush bandwagon. And they certainly never dropped the "Bush stole the election" stuff.

There was NEVER a time during the Bush Presidency when he wasn't just criticized, but viciously attacked. Not even right after 9-11. The WTC and Pentagon attacks muted it a bit, but it NEVER stopped it.

Sorry to tell you this, Wondergirl, but you are wrong. Bush was NEVER given a chance.

Elliot

I seem to remember that as soon as he was elected the legality of that election was brought into question IMMEDIATELY. Too many people didn't even let him take office before jumping on the anti-Bush bandwagon. And they certainly never dropped the "Bush stole the election" stuff.

That's exactly how I remembered it (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/presidential-dictatorship-371576-14.html#post1844562), too.

Thank you for your comments... I just want to say, Dyslexic workers of the world, "UNTIE!"
You might enjoy reading on-line, The Jewish World Review... always interesting... most especially Dennis Prager.

Thank you for your comments...I just want to say, Dyslexic workers of the world, "UNTIE!"
You might enjoy reading on-line, The Jewish World Review....always interesting...most especially Dennis Prager.

Thanks, Danon. I'm a regular reader of JWR, and I love Prager.

Elliot

Thank you for your comments...I just want to say, Dyslexic workers of the world, "UNTIE!"
You might enjoy reading on-line, The Jewish World Review....always interesting...most especially Dennis Prager.

BTW, do you know what you get when you mix a dyslexic, an insomniac and an agnostic?

A person who stays up all night wondering if there's a Dog.

YOU and I are the government.

What? Do we now start calling you Sleeping Beauty? That liberty was lost many many years ago when we kept sending people to Washington over and over again. They got greedy and now we have no say so in our Government. Just look at the last election to be convinced of that point. There are a few states in the East and California with enough electoral votes that the rest of the country is no longer matters. Except to send more flaming liberals to the big east coast cities to bolster their electoral college votes!

now we have no say so in our Government.
I voted in the last election. Did you?

Have you met the president's science czar (http://zombietime.com/john_holdren/)?


Forced abortions. Mass sterilization. A "Planetary Regime" with the power of life and death over American citizens.

The tyrannical fantasies of a madman? Or merely the opinions of the person now in control of science policy in the United States? Or both?

These ideas (among many other equally horrifying recommendations) were put forth by John Holdren, whom Barack Obama has recently appointed Director of the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy, Assistant to the President for Science and Technology, and Co-Chair of the President's Council of Advisors on Science and Technology -- informally known as the United States' Science Czar. In a book Holdren co-authored in 1977, the man now firmly in control of science policy in this country wrote that:

• Women could be forced to abort their pregnancies, whether they wanted to or not;
• The population at large could be sterilized by infertility drugs intentionally put into the nation's drinking water or in food;
• Single mothers and teen mothers should have their babies seized from them against their will and given away to other couples to raise;
• People who "contribute to social deterioration" (i.e. undesirables) "can be required by law to exercise reproductive responsibility" -- in other words, be compelled to have abortions or be sterilized.
• A transnational "Planetary Regime" should assume control of the global economy and also dictate the most intimate details of Americans' lives -- using an armed international police force.

I know, that was a long time ago (just a few years after Roe v. Wade when Ruth Bader Ginsburg thought that ruling would lead to Medicaid funding for abortions because "there was concern about population growth and particularly growth in populations that we don’t want to have too many of"), but scary nonetheless. Indeed Holdren's book said:


Indeed, it has been concluded that compulsory population-control laws, even including laws requiring compulsory abortion, could be sustained under the existing Constitution if the population crisis became sufficiently severe to endanger the society.


Adding a sterilant to drinking water or staple foods is a suggestion that seems to horrify people more than most proposals for involuntary fertility control. Indeed, this would pose some very difficult political, legal, and social questions, to say nothing of the technical problems. No such sterilant exists today, nor does one appear to be under development. To be acceptable, such a substance would have to meet some rather stiff requirements: it must be uniformly effective, despite widely varying doses received by individuals, and despite varying degrees of fertility and sensitivity among individuals; it must be free of dangerous or unpleasant side effects; and it must have no effect on members of the opposite sex, children, old people, pets, or livestock.


Involuntary fertility control
...
A program of sterilizing women after their second or third child, despite the relatively greater difficulty of the operation than vasectomy, might be easier to implement than trying to sterilize men.
...
The development of a long-term sterilizing capsule that could be implanted under the skin and removed when pregnancy is desired opens additional possibilities for coercive fertility control. The capsule could be implanted at puberty and might be removable, with official permission, for a limited number of births.


If some individuals contribute to general social deterioration by overproducing children, and if the need is compelling, they can be required by law to exercise reproductive responsibility—just as they can be required to exercise responsibility in their resource-consumption patterns—providing they are not denied equal protection.

Alrighty then... reach your own conclusions.

Have you met the president's science czar (http://zombietime.com/john_holdren/)?
And what were YOU thinking about back in 1977? Back then, I believed women belonged at home, barefoot and pregnant.

Which two years were those?Hello again, El:

How about the two years AFTER 9/11 and BEFORE he invaded Iraq? The country LOVED him, and the darling left wing media LOVED him... But, I guess you don't remember that stuff. It's OK. That's why I'm here - to remind you of reality.

excon

And what were YOU thinking about back in 1977? Back then, I believed women belonged at home, barefoot and pregnant.

Um, I was 17 and believed in smoking weed and lots of it. I didn't however, co-author a book on issues surrounding marijuana. In 1977 Holdren had held a PhD for 7 years, I think he was fairly sure of his beliefs by then. In 2006 he was one who claimed global sea levels could rise by 13 feet by the end of this century, even though the IPCC claimed it would be more like 13 inches.

Um, I was 17 and believed in smoking weed and lots of it. I didn't however, co-author a book on issues surrounding marijuana.
You would have if you could. You were too busy having the "munchies."


In 1977 Holdren had held a PhD for 7 years, I think he was fairly sure of his beliefs by then.
I'm in his cohort, and was well-educated at the same time as he, and was convinced about the barefoot and pregnant thing--and in fact was just that, barefoot and pregnant. Like any good Stepford wife, my house was spotless and the cupboards were full and the toys were picked up and dinner was cooking.

You would have if you could. You were too busy having the "munchies."

Um, no. I was also working, paying rent and chasing babes.


I'm in his cohort, and was well-educated at the same time as he, and was convinced about the barefoot and pregnant thing--and in fact was just that, barefoot and pregnant. Like any good Stepford wife, my house was spotless and the cupboards were full and the toys were picked up and dinner was cooking.

And I noted that he has recently been just as wacky as in 1977.

I voted in the last election. Did you?
Uh yea! DUHHH
However if you were to look at the election results in an honest light instead of rose colored glasses you would know that the west was totally irrelevant because the big electoral college states of the east had already decided the outcome. We in the far west have not been relevant in any National elections for more than 30 years.

Uh yea! DUHHH
However if you were to look at the election results in an honest light instead of rose colored glasses
I'll look at those election results honestly if you look at 2000's honestly.

What? You still believe that that environmental wacko still was actually elected president?

What? You still believe that that environmental wacko still was actually elected president?
Who?? Be clear.

All I have to say is...

Hello again, El:

How about the two years AFTER 9/11 and BEFORE he invaded Iraq? The country LOVED him, and the darling left wing media LOVED him.... But, I guess you don't remember that stuff. It's ok. That's why I'm here - to remind you of reality.

excon

C'mon, Ex!!

The left wing media LOVED Bush??

Don't try to hand me that shovelful. I watched the news, and starting BEFORE the 2000 election, the left wing media started bashing Bush and hasn't stopped even now.

That MJ is making you senile.

The left wing media LOVED Bush???
Ex is correct. Even I loved him.

The left wing media LOVED Bush???Hello again, gal:

It's true. If the media wasn't in his pocket, he NEVER could have passed the Patriot Act, and he NEVER could have invaded Iraq.

excon

PS> Here's a newsflash. The mainstream media is DEAD. Newspapers are going broke, and the networks are shills for the corporations that own them. The only news today is in the blogasphere.

People need to realize that Obama is not a messiah, but a human being and a politician who is not perfect. Everyone has flaws. I'm no liberal, but my stocks have gone up since he was elected so I'm not going to complain about him as long as the economy recovers. Politicians from both parties need to realize that they will have to both cut spending and possibly raise taxes to get the huge deficit under control even though the right choices won't be popular.

Is excon still in this area?

If so how can I talk at you about a question I had that you had answered earlier?

|



I voted for Bush. I don't know what would have happened if it had gone the other way. Anyone have any ideas how that would have worked out? I didn't want to vote for Bush but it was the lesser of two evils.

Yeah really Kerry is so very very scary.

People need to realize that Obama is not a messiah, but a human being and a politician who is not perfect. Everyone has flaws. I'm no liberal, but my stocks have gone up since he was elected so I'm not going to complain about him as long as the economy recovers. Politicians from both parties need to realize that they will have to both cut spending and possibly raise taxes to get the huge deficit under control even though the right choices won't be popular.

People in this country give their vote the prettiest face, or the person with the gift for gab. If people actually voted on issues and record, Nobama would have never gotten out of the IL house. Consider that idiot alfranken that IL just elected? Can anything be more ludicrous?

Consider that idiot alfranken that IL just elected? Can anything be more ludicrous?
Um, Senator Franken represents MN, not IL. (Glad you are up on your current events.)

People in this country give their vote the prettiest face, or the person with the gift for gab. If people actually voted on issues and record, Nobama would have never gotten out of the IL house. Consider that idiot alfranken that IL just elected? Can anything be more ludicrous?

If they voted for the prettiest face Palin and co. would have got in. Then you would be up sh1t creek.

No Skell.

Check your map. That's where we are NOW.

And this report from the Heritage Foundation.

Democrat representative Peter DeFazio who disagreed with Obama's spending plan was told by the president "Don't think we're not keeping score, brother"

That sounds like Mafia SOP to me.

Gal,
It was a joke. Everybody in the room laughed. You wanted to see a mob connection because that's what you want to see. Put down the hatred a second OK?

I just looked it up, and the count given for the number of Obama czars was 18, at the time that report was written.

We should all be concerned about this.

These czars are appointed by the president and answer ONLY to the president. Not to Congress or the people.

There is NO BASIS IN THE CONSTITUTION FOR SUCH OFFICES.

In this set up, all those reigns lead directly to the Oval Office.

Does the fact that this is the organizational map used by Communism and dictatorships disturb you?

How long are we going to let this stand?

How long are we going to let this stand?Hello gal:

Let me see... You complained about the Drug Czar, WHEN??

I've said it before... When you don't look out for OTHERS rights, your's may be next.

excon

Hello gal:

Lemme see.... You complained about the Drug Czar, WHEN?????

I've said it before... When you don't look out for OTHERS rights, your's may be next.

excon

Nice non-sequiter!

So you DO agree that these appointmants are unconstitutional, right?

And extremely dangerous, right?

Do YOU think Obama (or anyone else for that matter) should be allowed to get away with this?

Politically, what label would you personally hang on him?

Politically, what label would you personally hang on him?Hello again, gal:

He's a liberal who believes the government is the solution to our problems. Do I believe he needs to be stopped?? Only when continuing the illegal programs started by Bush.

excon

Hello again, gal:

He's a liberal who believes the government is the solution to our problems. Do I believe he needs to be stopped??? Only when continuing the illegal programs started by Bush.

excon

So you have no problems with Obama going WAY further to the left than Bush did? WOW!

I think his label would be more like a Socialist with a severe leftward tilt.

I think his label would be more like a Socialist with a severe leftward tilt.Hello again, gal:

I know.

excon

He's leaning left all right. If we don't prop him up, he's going to fall over the line into something worse.
I do not want our country to be a Socialist country. I do not want to be like Canada or the UK. I like Democracy, a Capitalist system and the freedom to be what I want to be. Not in that order.

I'm in Canada and we are more of a democracy than the US (you are a federal constitutional republic), it's a capitalistic system, we have all the freedom a man could want, and we have a great universal healthcare system.

I'm in Canada and we are more of a democracy than the US (you are a federal constitutional republic), it's a capitalistic system, we have all the freedom a man could want, and we have a great universal healthcare system.

Yep. So wonderful that your citizens come to the USA for their health care. So wonderful that your doctors come HERE to work and get paid a decent wage. So wonderful that your own government is trying to find ways to privatize parts of the system because government-run health care costs too much and is too inefficient and patients are dying or losing limbs waiting on lines for care they should already have and WOULD have in the USA even if they couldn't pay for it.

Your lame attempts to paint your health care system as "wonderful" flies in the face of what everyone knows to be true. Your own newspapers report of the failings of your health care system every day. Your own government puts out the statistics that condemn that system.

Elliot

Amen wondergirl! I'm so sick of the Obama bashing! Those of us in the real world can appreciate the changes he is making. After 8 years of an idiocracy we finally have a leader with the balls to protect ALL AMERICANS not just the gun toting, bible thumping, anti choice white majority with fat pocketbooks. (before you pick apart my last statement, I am a single white mother from an upper middleclass family that was raised southern baptist in the Heart of Alabama that can still call a spade a spade) Give him time, you gave the idiot Bush way too much so shut it and deal with the fallout he caused.

Canada is a good place to live but we are not as free as people think. We have almost no right to bear arms, healthcare often involves waiting times of weeks or even months for essential treatment and freedom of speech is greatly threatened by section 13 of the human rights act. This act is used by politically correct left-wing special interest groups to persecute people who are harmless but have unpopular views.

Yep. So wonderful that your citizens come to the USA for their health care.I know, and our government pays for it!
You are one angry man.

Debunking Canadian health care myths - The Denver Post (http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_12523427)

Amen wondergirl! I'm so sick of the Obama bashing!

BUT you have no problem with Bush bashing for the last 8+ years!
How hypocritical is that!

I know, and our government pays for it!
You are one angry man.

Debunking Canadian health care myths - The Denver Post (http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_12523427)

Why don't you for once take your own suggestion
"Pathetic response - please do not post on this board."

450,
What part didn't you like? The facts or me not understanding why Elliot goes to such lengths to try to convince me how unhappy I should be?

He's leaning left alright. If we don't prop him up, he's going to fall over the line into something worse.
I do not want our country to be a Socialist country. I do not want to be like Canada or the UK. I like Democracy, a Capitalist system and the freedom to be what I want to be. Not in that order.

Canada is a Socialist country?? When did that happen?

He's leaning left alright. If we don't prop him up, he's going to fall over the line into something worse.
I do not want our country to be a Socialist country. I do not want to be like Canada or the UK. I like Democracy, a Capitalist system and the freedom to be what I want to be. Not in that order.

You need to get out more if you think people in Canada or the UK are any less free than you.

Have you ever been outside the US?

He's leaning left alright. If we don't prop him up, he's going to fall over the line into something worse.
I do not want our country to be a Socialist country. I do not want to be like Canada or the UK. I like Democracy, a Capitalist system and the freedom to be what I want to be. Not in that order.

That quote of yours reveals much about you, including the fact that you know little about other nations. The USA is not the only model for democracy in the world, in fact from the view of an outsider, it appears to be a very flawed model. Now my own nation, Australia, was also modeled after the American system with a few local twists, and its democratic institutions work much better than yours seem to do. We have a socialist, by american standards, implementation with universal health care, government owned enterprises and so on. Capitalism thrives here without the thieves being fostered by the system and when our politicians do a deal to get legislation through it isn't decorated with pork barrelling in the fashion of the US democracy. Our leader is required to answer to the parliament every day of the session, Whilst this appears like a bear pit at times, there is no part of executive action which doesn't face scruitiny by the electorate

That quote of yours reveals much about you, including the fact that you know little about other nations. The USA is not the only model for democracy in the world, in fact from the view of an outsider, it appears to be a very flawed model. Now my own nation, Australia, was also modeled after the American system with a few local twists, and its democratic institutions work much better than yours seem to do. We have a socialist, by american standards, implementation with universal health care, government owned enterprises and so on. Capitalism thrives here without the thieves being fostered by the system and when our politicians do a deal to get legislation through it isn't decorated with pork barrelling in the fashion of the US democracy. Our leader is required to answer to the parliament every day of the session, Whilst this appears like a bear pit at times, there is no part of executive action which doesn't face scruitiny by the electorate

Good response. Our system down here sure has its faults but as you imply we certainly aren't lacking any 'rights'...

Im just waiting for Elliot to attack our health care system now.

Hi Needkarma

I have been talking to people in Canada for years about their Health Care System. You are the first person I have heard say they like it. I am a Nurse and we often hired temps from Canada. They were the nicest people you would ever meet and all very hard workers. They all said your health care is a nightmare for the elderly and poor.

Here is what your Newspaper had to say about it today. The Chronicle.

Ay, July 23, 2009
Share
COMMENTPRINT
The U.S. government runs Medicaid and Medicare and they are both bankrupt! So now we want the government to run the rest of the health-care business?

Well, first take a look at the government-run system in Canada.
The doctor shortage in Canada is so great that cities run lotteries for a doctor's appointment, and long wait times to see doctors have caused overcrowded emergency rooms. The Canadian Medical Association reports that patients wait more than nine hours to be seen and more than 24 hours to be admitted in Canadian emergency rooms. According to the Canadian Broadcasting Co. the average wait time in Canada for surgery is more than five months. The wait time for a CT scan is two months in Manitoba, and the wait time for a MRI is five months in Newfoundland.
Dr. Richard F. Davis, a cardiologist at the University of Ottawa Heart Institute, described what's happening to patients waiting for coronary bypass surgery. In one year while waiting for this one operation, 71 patients died,
One-hundred twenty-one became too sick for surgery and 44 left to have the operation in the United States. The Calgary Herald reported that 25,000 Calgary residents were waiting for surgery or scans at just four city hospitals. Alberta Health's Web site lists the following surgery wait times: 15 months for hip replacement, 15 months general surgery, 13 months for knee replacement, three months for cardiac surgery and 13 months for an MRI scan.
According to the Acton Institute in Grand Rapids, Mich. since February 2007 Ontario hospitals have sent 421 heart patients, 75 pregnant women or their babies and 25 women with high risk pregnancies to U.S. hospitals to receive care that they could not provide. And that's just Ontario! There are nine more provinces up there!
John Johannsen
Augusta
From the Thursday, July 23, 2009 edition of the Augusta Chronicle

Good response. Our system down here sure has its faults but as you imply we certainly aren't lacking any 'rights'....

Im just waiting for Elliot to attack our health care system now.

Australia's population has twice as many immigrants as we do, Why do you list the aboriginal's as immigrants? Your growth rate is 1.7%. Your interest rate 3% Your government is a constitutional monarchy,democratic federal state system. Your budget was overdrawn more than ours was last march. We caught up and passed you in May. Your inflation rate is 2,5%/year. You export, lots of food products and minerals.

My dream was to spend a year in Australia. A car wreck kiboshed that. I think I would like Australia even if you don't have a "bill of rights" You do have a constitution patterned after ours.

Take good care of your country. Don't let it get in the condition ours is right now. We will pull through this depression and Healthcare problem and be just fine. We have done it before. So when your country has problems, just let us know. I'm sure we would be supportive and loan money too.https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif:-)

Hi Needkarma,,
I have been talking to people in Canada for years about their Health Care System. You are the first person I have heard say they like it. I am a Nurse and we often hired temps from Canada. Really. My sister is a Masters of Nursing and she's married to a doctor with his own practice. I hear differently. You see it matters not if you are old or poor in our country, it's universal healthcare.

[quote=lshadylady;1875044Here is what your Newspaper had to say about it today. The Chronicle.

The U.S. government runs Medicaid and Medicare and they are both bankrupt! So now we want the government to run the rest of the health-care business?

Well, first take a look at the government-run system in Canada.
The doctor shortage in Canada is so great that cities run lotteries for a doctor's appointment[/quote]That is an oft-repeated talking point by those that disseminate misinformation. Let me guess... you listen to that nitcase Glen Beck? These so-called "lotteries" seem to all stems form one article: Gander medical clinic holds doctor draw (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2008/07/07/doctor-draw.html) It was for a clinic in Gander Newfoundland, population 9951. The same type of situation alsio happens in rural communities in the US. Here, you even need to airlift mediacal resources to communities that have nothing: U.S. Health Care Gets Boost From Charity - 60 Minutes - CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/28/60minutes/main3889496.shtml)

Hi Needkarma,,
I have been talking to people in Canada for years about their Health Care System. You are the first person I have heard say they like it. I am a Nurse and we often hired temps from Canada. Really. My sister is a Masters of Nursing and she's married to a doctor with his own practice. I hear differently. You see it matters not if you are old or poor in our country, it's universal healthcare.


Here is what your Newspaper had to say about it today. The Chronicle.

The U.S. government runs Medicaid and Medicare and they are both bankrupt! So now we want the government to run the rest of the health-care business?

Well, first take a look at the government-run system in Canada.
The doctor shortage in Canada is so great that cities run lotteries for a doctor's appointmentThat is an oft-repeated talking point by those that disseminate misinformation. Let me guess... you listen to that nitcase Glen Beck? These so-called "lotteries" seem to all stems form one article: Gander medical clinic holds doctor draw (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2008/07/07/doctor-draw.html) It was for a clinic in Gander Newfoundland, population 9951. The same type of situation alsio happens in rural communities in the US. Here, you even need to airlift mediacal resources to communities that have nothing: U.S. Health Care Gets Boost From Charity - 60 Minutes - CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/28/60minutes/main3889496.shtml)

Really. My sister is a Masters of Nursing and she's married to a doctor with his own practice. I hear differently. You see it matters not if you are old or poor in our country, it's universal healthcare.

That is an oft-repeated talking point by those that disseminate misinformation. Let me guess...you listen to that nitcase Glen Beck? These so-called "lotteries" seem to all stems form one article: Gander medical clinic holds doctor draw (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2008/07/07/doctor-draw.html) It was for a clinic in Gander Newfoundland, population 9951. The same type of situation alsio happens in rural communities in the US. Here, you even need to airlift mediacal resources to communities that have nothing: U.S. Health Care Gets Boost From Charity - 60 Minutes - CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/28/60minutes/main3889496.shtml)

I am glad to hear something good. I live in a small city in NYS about 90 miles from the border.Our Government stepped in and closed many of our busiest clinics this last year. I live near the hospital and the Helicopters flying in and out transporting patients to a big city hospital gets nerve wracking at times. As a patient, I would rather stay close to home and if I need specialist that is not here, drive to another hospital. That kind of thing has me anticipating nightmares. I need a more positive attitude.:-)

Rural living has its benefits... and its drawbacks. Hope you feel fine for a good lond while.

To Skell;

You need to get out more if you think people in Canada or the UK are any less free than you.

Have you ever been outside the U


I have been to Canada. That's all. I read a lot!
:-()

That quote was funny when Mark Twain's emmissary did a reading on TV years ago.

Don't try to guess the type of person I am

NK,

Do you even realize the pattern you are following?

When I say that the Canadian health system has many problems, you deny it. When you hear from Canadians who say that the Canadian health system has problems (Like Earl237 in post number 207) you ignore them. When others tell you what Canadian health professionals have told them, you tell them that you personal experience is different from theirs. When someone cites a news article on the issue, you say that the newspaper itself is either biased or is giving information out of context.

You just can't admit that there are people other than you who have major issues with the Canadian system. YOU are not the only person in Canada, and others have a very different experience than you do.

As a point of interest, people between the ages of 7 and 50 generally don't see the difference in care between a nationalized health care system and a private system. That's because unless they are particularly unlucky genetically, prone to accidents or are unlucky enough to catch a really bad disease, they don't spend all that much time dealing with doctors. UNDER 7 and OVER 50, you spend much more time dealing with doctors. The children, of course, don't know the difference, it's their parents who have to deal with it. It's the folks who are over 50 who tend to have more experience with the medical profession.

I don't know how old you are, NK. But I suspect that you are not yet 40. Nor are you chronically ill. So the fact is that you don't really have enough direct experience to know just how bad your country's medical system is. That is why your personal experience differs so widely from the statistical information coming out of the Canadian government. Simply put, you don't HAVE ANY EXPERIENCE dealing with medicine in Canada... or anywhere else. You are a young, healthy person with little need for doctors as part of your day-to-day life. You have admitted as much yourself elsewhere in our conversations. You have told me yourself that you haven't had that much experience dealing with medical issues.

Good for you. I hope that trend continues.

Not so good for those who are older than you or not as lucky as you are, and have to spend more time dealing with doctors. People who DO have more experience than you do in dealing with the Canadian health system have much less faith in it than you do.

BTW, I heard a story just yesterday from a woman currently living in the USA, but who grew up in Canada. She was talking about her sister, still in Canada, who just found out she's pregnant. Her OB-GYN appointment was set for 10 months from now.

Read that again.

Her preganancy OB-GYN appointment is set for 10 months from now... a month after the baby is due.

Now, I'm sure that this mistake will be easily fixed. Probably just a phone call to the doctor's office or the local medical administration office will take care of it. I'm sure that even the bureaucrats in Canada can figure out that this makes no sense, and will do everything they can to fix this error. They'll get her into her doctor's office in a reasonable amount of time.

But if there weren't queues in the first place being set up by bureaucrats, this error would never have happened at all. If people didn't need to get permission from someone else to see their doctor this never would have happened in the first place.

Something like this happening one time is comical, worthy of a good laugh. But when such errors become systemic, it becomes a waste of time and money and slows the entire medical system even more. It reduces the amount of time that medical administrators have to actually deal with supplying health care. Every minute, every dollar spent on fixing little humorous errors like this one is a minute and a dollar not being spent taking care of people.

And THAT is one of the basic, fundamental problems with government-run nationalized health care.

Private companies make mistakes too. But every mistake comes out of their bottom line, so managers work very hard to minimize mistakes. In government-run systems, there is no bottom line to worry about, so efficiency isn't an issue for them. And mistakes continue to happen because there is no incentive to minimize them.

Any government-run system has this basic flaw. That is why government-run systems tend to lose money quickly... like Medicare and Medicaid and Social Security and even the Postal System in the USA. They are all inefficient, and therefore they are money losers and end up providing poor services. Not because they are bad people, but because the system itself is flawed by its very nature. It cannot be efficient if it is run by the government.

Elliot

Any government-run system has this basic flaw. That is why government-run systems tend to lose money quickly..Hello again, El:

Does the government RUN highway paving? Or does the government just pay for private contractors to do it?

Our system isn't going to be run by the government... You're spiffing...

excon

Hi elliot,

- No, no system is perfect but you are trying to paint us as something we are not.
- yes I'm over 40
- my parents are both over 70, no issues with them getting healthcare.. ever
- This board being on the web reaches an international audience yet the medical questions being asked on the health boards are overwhemnigly by americans, canadians would simply go see their doctor.
Also you want to paint me as *lucky* guy in my system. Other than earl (who seems to be canadian or american depending on the day) you seem to hear positives from us yet you try very hard to convince us that we should be unhappy with our system - you are one very negative person.

Gander medical clinic holds doctor draw[/url] It was for a clinic in Gander Newfoundland, population 9951. The same type of situation alsio happens in rural communities in the US.

We have lotteries for doctor visits? By the way, I'm still waiting for your response to the latest Canadian survey (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/when-did-luxury-items-become-right-371667-12.html#post1873932).

We have lotteries for doctor visits? By the way, I'm still waiting for your response to the latest Canadian survey (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/when-did-luxury-items-become-right-371667-12.html#post1873932).I was referring to the US rationing resources in rural areas which is what was happening in Gander.

About the survey - everyone should have a look at it, it doesn't reflect very badly on our system at all. Yes we have some work to do in some areas but canadians are generally satisfied. Of course the answers to the privatized healthcare questions came with no financial strings attached so the answers aren't reflective of how it would affect all families at different income levels.

Hi elliot,

- No, no system is perfect but you are trying to paint us as something we are not.
- yes I'm over 40
- my parents are both over 70, no issues with them getting healthcare..ever
- This board being on the web reaches an international audience yet the medical questions being asked on the health boards are overwhemnigly by americans, canadians would simply go see their doctor.
Also you want to paint me as *lucky* guy in my system. Other than earl (who seems to be canadian or american depending on the day) you seem to hear positives from us yet you try very hard to convince us that we should be unhappy with our system - you are one very negative person.

Then how do you explain the statistics that Speechless cited? If you are the common experience, how do you explain that over 50% of your country's population wants to see a change to a more privatized system?

Elliot

Then how do you explain the statistics that Speechless cited? If you are the common experience, how do you explain that over 50% of your country's population wants to see a change to a more privatized system?

ElliotRead my reply before you post.

Then how do you explain the statistics that Speechless cited? Hello again, El:

Surprise, surprise... You think we should swallow your crap because it came from YOU?? Dude! Life don't happen that way.

I don't know why you think YOUR statistics are golden, and ours are ka ka. Why do you think right wing websites speak the truth, but all others lie?? You HAVE drunk the koolaid. That's the only explanation... But, of course, we KNEW that.

excon

Actually excon check out the survey speech linked to, it isn't too damning at all.

Actually excon check out the survey speech linked to, it isn't too damning at all.

It's also not as rosy as you make it sound.

Ok.

And this one is interesting...

In your opinion, if Canadians were allowed to purchase private insurance for health
services already covered under medicare, do you [agree] that this would:
public, agree or strongly agree:

Result in shorter waiting times: 63% (32% strongly)

Lead to a shortage of doctors and nurses in the public system, as they leave to
work in a new private system: 62% (36% strongly)

Create a two-tier system where those who can afford to pay will get better
treatment than those who can’t: 59% (41% strongly)

Improve access to health care services for everyone: 57% (33% strongly)

Result in increasing costs of health care: 56% (26% strongly)

Lead to improved quality in health care services: 55% (26% strongly)

Add the boom in private practice and the scenario in Canada isn't as rosy as you want us to believe.Hello Need:

It looks like the surveyor designed the survey to come up with answers the surveyor wanted. That's why I don't believe it.

excon

Everyone is way off subject here.

The main question in the OP has to do with HOW Obama is going about to get his way.

It is clear that he wants to force changes through without regard to Constitution or reasoned debate.

Read my reply before you post.

I did. And that is why I posted this:



Do you even realize the pattern you are following?

When I say that the Canadian health system has many problems, you deny it. When you hear from Canadians who say that the Canadian health system has problems (Like Earl237 in post number 207) you ignore them. When others tell you what Canadian health professionals have told them, you tell them that you personal experience is different from theirs. When someone cites a news article on the issue, you say that the newspaper itself is either biased or is giving information out of context.

You just can't admit that there are people other than you who have major issues with the Canadian system. YOU are not the only person in Canada, and others have a very different experience than you do.



In other words, you never responded to the poll numbers. You just denied them as if they didn't exist.

So I again ask, if yours is the common experience of most Canadians, how do you respond to those statistics?

Elliot

Hello Need:

It looks like the surveyor designed the survey to come up with answers the surveyor wanted. That's why I don't believe it.

excon

Ex, it wasn't a Fox News poll, it was THE health care survey in Canada.

How do you respond to those statistics?

ElliotThe ones from Steve survey link that say that the majority of Canadians:
a) agree that they are getting quality health care
b) that 93% agree that it is the responsibility of every Canadian to take care of their own health through prevention of illnesses and injuries, and by leading a healthy lifestyle. (personal responsibility - we must all be conservatives, oh my!! )
c) did not need to use personal savings to care for a family friend
d) did not experience any adverse effects or events as a result of care received in Canada’s health care system

Steve didn't show those because he did not want to.

ex, it wasn't a Fox News poll, it was THE health care survey in Canada.

Isn't that put out by the Canadian government?

Would the Canadian government deliberately create survey questions that make its own program look bad?

Is that the argument you are trying to make excon? That the Canadian government put out a survey that is designed to trash the Canadian Government's own health care system?

Is that the argument you are trying to make excon? That the Canadian government put out a survey that is designed to trash the Canadian Government's own health care system?Hello again, El:

Nope, Steve did his own selective reporting to skew the results. S'ok. Need pointed it out.

But, I can tell when I'm handed a pile of crap, even if it's described as kosher sandwich.

excon

Simple truth straight forward -no bull- I appreciate your truth.
Fact is I cannot trust Obama. He sees evil Americans, disassociates himself with Americans to other countries, and apologizes for our evil around the world ; trying to impress leaders we wouldn't want to govern us (or even their own people), kissing up to them, seeking their approval. All those countries want is for Obama to be a fool so that their vain imaginations can perpetuate their reign over their people, without fear of truth and justice for all. His appearances in other countries reinforces their belief that Americans are evil and stupid, when Americans are able to enjoy the pursuit of happiness. Americans have actively aided the entire world in bringing the quality of life we cherish and have invoked hope to our entire world. Truth America is the ##1 country who believes and employs "green technologies" why are we chastized about this. Americans had the best the quality of life (our quality made other peoples countries have better quality of life), we believe in honor and compassion. Everyone Obama chooses to be a part of his government only see Americans as people who don't understand what is good for them, and that Americans need to be guided to their vision. Remind yourself of this when you see their actions and the things they say and then do. "God damn America" Obama has shown he has no faith in us, why should we believe him to do better for us than we. Look at him brow beating his own Democrats to vote for things against all better judgment. Do it his way do it now, His power trip, his rushing got us into a mess already, and he don't care. In the Obama view they see disgust in America, they choose to see racism-and use it to control people - or people will be perceived as racists ( in fact if they want to abolish racism, they would not play race cards, but encourage unification, not hire a racist judge and emphasize talk about the horror she endured being Latina). They say transparency- but they say they don't have to tell us anything important, they have it handled. They take what has been said and done and re-write history like Orson Well's 1984. President Obama said in his speech last night that when he was elected that more than 700,000 jobs were lost each month, that actually happened after his election. He "inherited the problem" he said and the tasks he has done has created a better economy now as we rise up out of this recession. Well, every thing I have seen and read indicates the exact opposite. Obama said un-employment is at 8.5%, perhaps you are one of them - or maybe you are un-employed and not counted, like me. Unemployment is honestly at almost 14%! Fact the un-employment rate figures do NOT count a very large percentage of the unemployed that needs a job. It does not count people still looking for work who have run out of un-employment like me. It does not count the full-time people who had to take a part-time job for just anything. It does not count all the people who have been cut back to 30 hrs a week to keep their job. It also does not count the 2nd wage earner, or the retiree who has given up looking for work and now stays with the family. Nor does it count first time out of school people looking for work, or your average young un-married college student, or the people who have had to go back to school. Nor people on medical leave who have no job to return to. Neither does it count the people on extended leave, or who are asked to take un-paid vacation, vacation, etc. What's even scarier is that business production is at such a low level that it cannot even sustain the employees there are now at 30 hrs a week. All the economic growth that was over the last 10 years was equally leveled in less than 6 months this year. WHY DOSEN'T the OBAMA ADM. Choose to count the factual truth and actually do something about this. FACT the stimulus was money dolled out for government growth ,to do emergency assistance to states for their first year- after that there is no more. Fact the same stimulus is a about 5% real infrastructure rebuilding to create jobs, the rest were pet projects by congressmen, which is so wrapped up in red tape and stipulations that it will be a long time until your average employee is employed. Fact so much of the stimulus funds are going other than America (outside) and/ or earmarked for outsider jobs. Where did I find this info , gov reports, and factual based news articles - not the Times or CNN or even ABC that slant everything. Oh, by the way I am apparently counted as one of the people screaming out for health care reform- even though I don't want it. I have no freedom to say that I don't want it because I am unemployed and my kids are on the state medical plan. Soon all the choices we make will be much simpler for us - as there won't be many. I do not see the heart of an American as evil. Americans saw hope, faith practiced charity,and we believed in justice for all. If we choose to allow these few to choose for us then we are probably really making our last choices.

Hello again, El:

Nope, Steve did his own selective reporting to skew the results. S'ok. Need pointed it out.

But, I can tell when I'm handed a pile of crap, even if it's described as kosher sandwich.

excon

He cited the report. He linked to the summary report put out by the CHA. In what way did he cherry pick the results?

And assume that he did cherry pick the results and only showed you SOME of them. Does that make the results themselves invalid? Are the results themselves wrong?

Sorry, excon. There is a bullsh!t sandwitch coming down the pike, but it ain't from Speechless or Tom or me.

Elliot

[QUOTE=ETWolverine;1875378]NK,

Do you even realize the pattern you are following?

ETWolf

Good answer! Wish I had said that. But I was nice. New member.You were 100&#37; right. Your pregnant friend in Canada, according to that newspaper article, will have to be sent to the US for care. She had better find someone who practices midwifery.

What will happen when our health care system degenerates to that point? Where will she go then. We are soon to be on our own I guess.

One of the benefits of our Health care system is the number of small businesses, and some big businesses, that are off-shoots of the healthcare system. I would guess a very large number of them if you stop to think. What is going to happen to them? Right now we have a lot of Doctors to see patients within a week or two or immediately in an emergency(generally a 2 hr. wait for minor emergency) They need and use lots of supplies and equipment. The supply companies flourish. If we no longer have these Doctors seeing so many patients, what will happen to the small business people? What will happen to the economy? I go to business school online and I asked that question in class on a live iConnect feed. The professor said very sadly "We will not have many of them anymore".

Obahma is an idealist. He really believes this will work. Well it didn't work for the Medicare medication problem. I fought to not have that benefit. I had my own partial coverage and paid the rest myself and I was okey with it. But, I was not allowed to keep it. The Insurance Company dropped seniors from their coverage. The pharmacist said ,"You better get it, they will fine you if you don't and it will cost twice as much." So I buckeled. I had to quit taking some medications after I had to buy groceries instead. It cost me more to get that benefit than it did without it, but that's because I fall somehere in the high middle for cost of medications. They sit up there on the Hill in Washington pretending to know as much as a Medical Doctor, and write laws about how we can all have free medical care and they believe we will get it. They will. They are in a unique position to get the best. We aren't. I'm not an important person and I don't have the money for premium healthcare. I have nearly the best supplemental insurance and I am covered 100% because I know it is important and I choose to spend my money that way. Now they will interfere and, being old, even though I have a young heart and mind, I will soon have a hard time getting medical care.:-/

The ones from Steve survey link that say that the majority of Canadians:
a) agree that they are getting quality health care
b) that 93% agree that it is the responsibility of every Canadian to take care of their own health through prevention of illnesses and injuries, and by leading a healthy lifestyle. (personal responsibility - we must all be conservatives, oh my!!!!)
c) did not need to use personal savings to care for a family friend
d) did not experience any adverse effects or events as a result of care received in Canada’s health care system

Steve didn't show those becasue he did not want to.

This just goes to show that no matter what anyone puts in front of you if it doesn't fit your view then it's irrelevant. I purposely chose a survey as official as it could be so I wouldn't be impugned. I acknowledge the pros and cons in the report, which I have linked to twice for all to see for themselves, but it does NOT paint the rosy scenario you want us to see. It DOES point to problems. I repeat:

57% of the public believe they receive quality care, that's less than 6 in 10. Less than half of the public believe the quality of Canadian health care will improve over the next five years including only 37% of doctors, 46% of pharmacists, and just 33% of nurses.

49% of the public, 81% of doctors, 78% of pharmacists, 81% of nurses and 71% of managers believe timely access has worsened.

63% (32% strongly), believe being allowed to purchase private insurance would "Result in shorter waiting times." 57% (33% strongly) believe it "Improve access to health care services for everyone." 55% (26% strongly) believe it would "Lead to improved quality in health care services."

I'm glad it works for you, but apparently a lot Canadians aren't as enamored with it as you are and don't believe it will get better. Can you acknowledge that or not?

Hello again, El:

Nope, Steve did his own selective reporting to skew the results. S'ok. Need pointed it out.

But, I can tell when I'm handed a pile of crap, even if it's described as kosher sandwich.

I suppose I could have pasted the whole report but since I linked to it - twice - folks can read it for themselves. I did however print a couple of answers regarding being allowed to purchase private insurance that don't help my argument, that it would:


Create a two-tier system where those who can afford to pay will get better
Treatment than those who can't: 59&#37; (41% strongly)

Result in increasing costs of health care: 56% (26% strongly)

NK says it's all good and apparently some is and some isn't. He wants us to acknowledge the good (and I am), you guys needs to acknowledge the bad.

Australia's population has twice as many immigrants as we do, Why do you list the aboriginal's as immigrants? Your growth rate is 1.7&#37;. Your interest rate 3% Your government is a constitutional monarchy,democratic federal state system. Your budget was overdrawn more than ours was last march. We caught up and passed you in May. Your inflation rate is 2,5%/year. You export, lots of food products and minerals.

My dream was to spend a year in Australia. A car wreck kiboshed that. I think I would like Australia even if you don't have a "bill of rights" You do have a constitution patterned after ours.

Take good care of your country. Don't let it get in the condition ours is right now. We will pull through this depression and Healthcare problem and be just fine. We have done it before. So when your country has problems, just let us know. I'm sure we would be supportive and loan money too.https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif:-)

I don't know where you get your statistics but until this recession (not depression) our budget was in surplus, unemployment is not a serious problem and aboriginees aren't immigrants they are indigenous and make up about 2% of the population and account for much of the social problems, welfare, etc. Yes our government has been handing out stimulus packages just as others have, but our recovery will be swift because the world needs what we have to sell, that alone is worth thinking about. We don't need you to loan money to us we have the ability to print our own, The US Dollar is not negotiable currency here as it is in many countries. Our immigrant population statistically may be large but we don't have the annual influx you do and those that come here do so legally for the most part and so contribute skills to the economy not day labour

On the subject of health care I would just like those on the other side of the big pond to consider this. We can see a doctor in most cases within 24 hours although it may take longer to see a doctor of our choice. Emergency room waits weren't longer than an hour until H1N1 hit now because of panic they are longer. Specialists of course always have a waiting list. This costs a 1.5&#37; tax impost for the uninsured and about$AUD200 a month a family for insurance. The benefit of insurance is to reduce the waiting time for elective surgery and bypass the public hospital system. Pharmueticals are regulated by the government which keeps costs within reason.
Your president may be trying to help your people in a similar way remember you can't get it without paying for it somewhere, but our system hasn't destroyed enterprise in the medical profession, just put a cap on the costs. Like many countries we struggle to train enough doctors to meet the demand

On the subject of health care I would just like those on the other side of the big pond to consider this. We can see a doctor in most cases within 24 hours although it may take longer to see a doctor of our choice. Emergency room waits weren't longer than an hour until H1N1 hit now because of panic they are longer. Specialists of course always have a waiting list. This costs a 1.5% tax impost for the uninsured and about$AUD200 a month a family for insurance. The benefit of insurance is to reduce the waiting time for elective surgery and bypass the public hospital system. Pharmueticals are regulated by the government which keeps costs within reason.
Your president may be trying to help your people in a similiar way remember you can't get it without paying for it somewhere, but our system hasn't destroyed enterprise in the medical profession, just put a cap on the costs. Like many countries we struggle to train enough doctors to meet the demand

What is H1N1?

There are some very clever people in this world, and now that the emphasis is on health care, why can't they think of something better? None of our plans are perfect, but why ditch the whole thing. How many people in the US get good health care? Most of the population. The obesity and heart disease is something else entirely. We eat too much and that is our own responsibility. There is more education and research needed on that subject.

NK says it's all good and apparently some is and some isn't. He wants us to acknowledge the good (and I am), you guys needs to acknowledge the bad.It is mostly good. There is some bad. The survey is an opinion survey - it's not 40 million people without health insurance or going bankrupt due to medical costs. You can't seem to make that difference.

It is mostly good. There is some bad. The survey is an opinion survey - it's not 40 million people without health insurance or going bankrupt due to medical costs. You can't seem to make that difference.

And if YOU believe that there are 40 million US citizens without health care I have a bridge for sale you might be interested in!
When did this world change from believing that people work for what they earn to people believing that someone else should give them everything for free?