The guy who demo'd my bathroom, installed cement board, then tile has done some things that I question -

He did not caulk the cement board seams before putting up tile
He did not fill new tub to test it before tiling. By the time the plumber came half of the tile was on the wall so there was no "testing" done. The drain did not hold water, the ceiling below is damp, as well as the top half of the wall in room below. Paint is cracking and feels spongy. I am having plumber come by to adjust drain and tell me what to do about ceiling and walls. Do I need to open up asap and replace asap so as not to get mold? (The main reason for the demo in the first place, but not the same cause of mold.)

The tile work is level, he says, but not straight vertically especially, and the grout lines are inconsistent in width. He says the walls were not plumb, but the tile is level. He did not run any kind of string while tiling nor use chalk, etc. nor lay out the tile beforehand for either floor or tub surround.

He grouted all the corners as well as the line where the first row of tiles meets the tub. Grout only.

Do I put clear caulk over the grout? Leave it alone - dig it out?

There are many reasons I am not happy but for now I am just trying to ensure that I don't have problems down the line.

I always thought caulk goes in the corners and tubline - but there is grout there now.

This is a bathroom and tub/shower that is heavily used by my four children.

Advice?

Thanks

Hi Kimberly:

He shouldn't have filled the cement board seams with caulking... he should have placed a mildew-resistant mesh tape and the wall tile adhesive he is using to install the tile at the seams.

The plumber is responsible for testing the tub water and waste... has nothing to do with the tile guy except that they should have coordinated things a little better, perhaps...

Now.. some use grout at corners and between tub and tile... some use caulking/silicone. I started learning the grout method... moved on to the caulking/silicone method as I became convinced that different materials contract/expand at different rates and buildings settle... so think this the best method. However, I also know from experience that there are an awful lot of older jobs out there where the caulking is still standing up in between these materials without issue... but things were done differently then... for sure!

What material is the tub made from.. Fiberglass, acrylic, or cast iron... each needs to be set differently and will make a big difference in long term here, so let me know... O.K.

MARK

Mark -

Hello, thank you!

The tub is an american standard acrylic, I think, with some kind of insulating factor in the walls. Looks quite basic - bought at Home Depot, the next best to the cast iron, which I replaced because it was uncleanable and trashed.
Honestly, I don't know how he installed the tub - the plumber, regretably perhaps, was not involved. It seems solid and stable, but we don't know yet.
Thank you for your input. So I will leave the grout as is and no caulking needed at this time, if I understand you correctly. I feel a little better - fingers crossed.

K

Hmmm...

An Americast tub is extremely flexible compared to the old cast iron tubs. I would have definitely caulked/siliconed between the first row of tiles and the tub. In fact, the manufacturer calls for a sealant as well. You can look up the installation instructions for your tub at:

www.americanstandard-us.com

Americast tubs are NOT supposed to be set in mortar... voids warranty, but they do require that a STRINGER board be installed end to end of the tub (you can't see it as it under the tub). See if the plumber can see that stringer board when he opens up the ceiling. If not, you will have other isues in the future!

Finally, if the tiles are not straight VERTICALLY throughout the install... EXCEPT at the corners, perhaps, because the walls are out of plumb then the guy is definitely a HACK as any decent tile guy will make plumb lines and install tile so it is straight everywhere.

Any chance you can post a picture of this work..? Was a plumbing permit or building permit issued for the job (I'm betting not! ).

Letr me know...

MARK

He did not caulk the cement board seams before putting up tile

Actually, it's alkali resistant mesh tape, not mildew resistant tape, they don't get caulked, they get taped and thinsetted, tile adhesive (mastics) should not ever be used in a tub with a shower for any reason. I really hope that prior to installing the cement board, that your isntaller used some sort of moisture barrier over the wall framing and overlapping the flange of the tub, either 4 mil plastic sheeting or 15lb roofing felt. Your cement board is 100% NOT waterproof, only 100% not affected by water. It will very happily allow water to pass right through. If a moisture barrier was not used, you can expect to have plenty of issues. Grout sealer does not water proof the grout either.


The tile work is level, he says, but not straight vertically especially, and the grout lines are inconsistent in width.

My guess is that he may have tried to cheat some grout lines or the tile came from different calibers. When tile comes out of the kiln and cools, it's all marked with the dye lot, but they don't all cool down to the same size. They are sorted into similar size groupings known as and marked as "calibers" 2 tiles, same lot, but different calibers can vary in size by 1/8" or more.

Out of plumb walls mean the grout lines from one wall to the next would be wider or narrower to maintain tile at the same level, still no excuse, though, there are tile industry standards for tolerances on the framing.


He grouted all the corners as well as the line where the first row of tiles meets the tub. Grout only.

Do I put clear caulk over the grout? Leave it alone - dig it out?


Those areas should only ever be caulked. Grout will always crack out of those areas. Long ago, when surrounds were formed by using cement over metal lath, you had essentially a monolithic cement structure within the house and the inside corners could be grouted because the entire surround acted as one structure independent of the house. With cement board, each panel is going to react with the wall to which it's attached. For this reason, it gets caulked. This is why what used to work does not work now. When walls are floated, they can still be grouted.

Caulk will only perform as well as it's base. Caulk over cracking, unstable grout will fail in short order, so remove the grout prior to caulking. Fill the tub with water prior to caulking the tub line and allow it to remain filled with water during the curing time of the grout. If your children are young, keep the door locked to prevent any tragic accident.


Any chance you took pictures during the renovation and can post them here or provide a link to them?

I can email some pictures. Haven' t yet saved them to a folder or link... guess I'm not sure how to do that at the moment.

Will get back to you - I appreciate your help.
K

An easy photo sharing option is to create a free account at Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket (http://www.photobucket.com) and upload your photos there. Once you do that, you can post a link to your online photo album.

Or you can just post them here under the go advanced feature at the text box when posting. Here, click GO ADVANCED, then click MANAGE ATTACHMENTS then click BROWSE and upload your saved pics. Then click SAVE CHANGES and all will post here.

Let us know..

MARK

21405

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Here are a few.

Lack of spacers and experienced caused the problem way more than out of plumb wall. Did you watch him do the install, bet he started in a corner didn't he.

Spacers or starting in a corner have nothing to do with it. Did his breath smell of alcohol or did he make his way through your home with the assistance of a white cane or a highly trained dog? All I can say about those pictures is :eek::eek::eek:

I've never seen anything so horrible. Really. Whoever did this needs to reimburse you for the tile, the installation labor you paid and the cost of someone else to demo the job to redo it. Another thing, caulk will not bridge a gap that large at the tub/tile intersection. It should have been no more than 1/8". Do you know the financial limit for small claims court in your jurisdiction?

Yeah...

No excuse on this guys part... inexperienced guy pretending to be experienced... shame!

And I'm also betting that he started in the corner trying to use as many full tiles as possible. I'll also bet that the grout line at the tub goes from thin to even thicker as you go around from one end of the tub to the other... ;) These are very common beginner mistakes!

That large grout line will crack as soon as you fill the tub with water and will eventually be a problem when you try to caulk over it and the caulking turns black because mold/mildew grew in behind the grout and simply can't be removed after the fact!

Any word from the plumber on the installation of the tub and that leak you mentioned..?

Let me know...

MARK

Honestly, I don't know how he installed the tub - the plumber, regretably perhaps, was not involved.

K

Did the same person that laid the tile install the tub? Sounds like you had a jack of all trades (master of none) do all the work. I guessing this person was not associated with a reputable company. The money you saved by having a do it yourselfer do the job, may indeed cost you a fortune in the end. I do truly hope you get this fixed at installers expense(one of the worst tile jobs I've seen.). Please let us know how things work out.

Thank you all - the plumber comes tomorrow or Thursday and I will let you know...

Yeah...

No excuse on this guys part....inexperienced guy pretending to be experienced...shame!!

And I'm also betting that he started in the corner trying to use as many full tiles as possible. I'll also bet that the grout line at the tub goes from thin to even thicker as you go around from one end of the tub to the other...;) These are very common beginner mistakes!

That large grout line will crack as soon as you fill the tub with water and will eventually be a problem when you try to caulk over it and the caulking turns black because mold/mildew grew in behind the grout and simply can't be removed after the fact!

Any word from the plumber on the installation of the tub and that leak you mentioned...??

Let me know...

MARK

Yes, the grout line goes exactly as you suggest.
At it's widest it is at least .5 inches near left corner down to about 1/4 inch. Very inconsistent.
That was my concern (one of many) - the grout line will not hold. I've discussed this with installer several times, to no avail.
I did this project (my first ever renovation!) despite a very strained budget because I had mold around the tubline and even on the groutlines of the floor - due to a toilet overflow a couple of years ago.
I was concerned about our health, and resale not to mention the way it looked.

Thanks for your help. I really appreciate the feedback.
Plumber tomorrow or Thursday. Good guy - a pro that I trust.
New tile, new installer, new demo has to be the next step. It is clear.
The project started 3 months ago - we are ready for a second bathroom again but even if everything was sound, none of us will be able to take a shower or bath in peace the way it is.


Be well.

K

Agree, the tile looks sloppy ( grout lines don't line up ) but it is only visual problem. If you use sanded fortified grout, you can go wider with joints. I don't see any missing grout that would suggest it is allowing water through. The leak was probably plumbing related.

I know I am not saying what you want to hear, but: In contrary to the previous advices, I must inform you that we do not caulk new work where tile meets tub. We grout it. If done properly, grout will not crack.

Yes, yellow mesh tape should be applied at seems at the time of tile installation...

Some of the source of cracks in grout may be: unstable floor, weak joists, no ledger support installed, and new framing using wet lumber. All these problems are associated with prep-work and may not be tile-man related...

I know I am not saying what you want to hear, but: In contrary to the previous advices, I must inform you that we do not caulk new work where tile meets tub. We grout it. If done properly, grout will not crack.

I PM'd a few of the Tilesetters I have worked with over the years last night, and they said that the edge between the tub and the bottom course of tile should be caulked with an elastomeric caulk -- In most cases they buy a tube of color matched sanded caulk when they buy their grout for the job.

The reason being that a grouted joint will crack as the tub flexes, particularly composite tubs like the Americast.

Iamgrowler and Milo...

I repeat what I said at my 2nd post...

An Americast tub is extremely flexible compared to the old cast iron tubs. I would have definitely caulked/siliconed between the first row of tiles and the tub. In fact, the manufacturer calls for a sealant as well.

Thanks...

MARK

MARK, I hate to say it but you are incorrect...

I just walked out of my bathroom. There is a "plastic" (acrylic) Kohler Memoir tub, tiled, and grouted. Even though the tub is jetted, there are NO cracks along the edge where "plastic" tub meets cementous grout. It has been that way for two years now.

FYI: there are no cracks because close attention was paid to framing and tub installation to prevent the problem of cracked grout.

I understand caulking may be the way to go in your area but it is not in my area. We consider caulking as the last the option. No new tile work is caulked in my area.

If you've never seen properly installed acrylic tub with grout line along its edge than let me know - I can take a photo of it and post it for you. :D

Cheers...

PS: well, I did take a photo of it... See for yourself...

Hey Milo...

It's not what is acceptable in my area or your area. It is simply a FACT that the manufacturer of the AMERICAST tub REQUIRES a flexible SEALANT be used for this tub no matter if tile or tub surround is used. There's simply is no debating that... ;) You can always check it out at their website.

I have installed tons of tubs over the years with no issues myself... all cast iron, by the way, but as a rule I started using the Kohler color matched grout years ago because sometimes we are remodeling plumbers and we can't always reframe the floors/joists/walls, etc... simply not in the scope of the job sometimes... and there will be flex and give such that the grout line cracks and mildew/mold begins to creep in and that is awful... so as a rule almost everyone I know goes with the flexible sealants today.

In this case, being the HACK tile job that I see and the fact that Kimberly said that the tile guy set the tub as well I will still STRONGLY recommend that the grout get pulled out NOW, before the tub area is used and mildew/mold can set in. Then Kimberly's contractor can install a sanded CAULKING... ;) Sold almost everywhere nowadays!

Remember, we are still waiting to hear what Kim's plumber has to say about the tub installation (remember that leak in the ceiling? ).


Talk soon...

MARK

I PM'd a few of the Tilesetters I have worked with over the years last night, and they said that the edge between the tub and the bottom course of tile should be caulked with an elastomeric caulk -- In most cases they buy a tube of color matched sanded caulk when they buy their grout for the job.

The reason being that a grouted joint will crack as the tub flexes, particularly composite tubs like the Americast.

Mark, tell your tile men to fill up the acrylic tub before they apply fortified grout. Drain water from tub after grout cures and is sealed.

As I found out from my experience, most of tile setters are too cheap to spend extra $30.00 for acrylic ad-mix and use clean water to mix grout with instead. Also, without filled tub during grouting - crack will develop later on.

And on personal note: do not buy / install tubs that flex. You setting yourself up for trouble.

Milo... you keep trying to make this about me and I have tried to point out the facts three times now...

I will state the simple fact one last time... THE MANUFACTURER OF THIS TUB REQUIRES THAT A FLEXIBLE SEALANT BE INSTALLED BETWEEN THE TILE AND/OR THE TUB SURROUND.

Why are you continuing to ignore that..?

MARK

Mark, forward me the instructions...

Here they are Milo:

http://www.americanstandard-us.com/assets/documents/amstd/install/Install_1011.pdf

Page #2, illustration #4 OR page #4, illustration #4... ;)

Here's another... americast whirlpool here... ;)

http://www.americanstandard-us.com/assets/documents/amstd/install/Install_349.pdf

Page #2 and Page #10

All the other americast tubs show the same thing... ;)

Just presenting the facts here... Let me know what you think!

MARK

Milo and Mark, if you two can't play nice, you're both going in time out :p

Grouting changes in plane is a regional difference, mostly done in California where mudwork is prevailing and the tile assemblies act as one monolithic structure vs. what you see elsewhere with cement board wall section meeting and acting independent of the adjoining cement board wall section.

Grouting along the tub as Milo suggested is the same as the caulk should be applied, the difference being that when the water is drained, the caulk compresses but when the water is drained and the tub/wall joint has been grouted, the compressive strength of the grout keeps the tub ledge pushed down as it was when filled with water. However, the grout is by no means remaining sealed to that tub and therefore is not creating a water tight seal against the tub.

The correct answer is that according to industry guidelines ANSI A108.1 Paragraph 3.7.2, which is part of where requirement of movement joints are covered, includes "terminations of tilework where it would abut restraining or dissimilar surfaces" and therefor the joint should be caulked, not grouted.

It's also detailed in TCNA method EJ-171 to give the detail on how they are to be constructed, minimum placements, minimum sizes, etc.


FYI... except in very limited uses, the mixing of an acrylic or latex additive in place of clean water with an already modifed grout or thinset makes for a weaker grout or thinset as there is not enough water content to properly hydrate the portland cement content of the thinset or grout nor enough water to re-emulsify the spray dried polymers within the bag of thinset or grout.


Now if I may, can I invite my plumber along and the 3 of you can debate his pvc liners, Mark's copper pans, and Milo's tar pit pans. :) Got to love those regional variations.

Mark, yes, you are wrong...

Do you have another set of instructions to prove it ? Just cut and paste the important part - don't let me read the whole thing again like an apprentice.

Milo... You are wrong.. AGAIN!

I told you the page and the freakin' image number at both posts..? Do I have to hold your hand and read it to you!.

What the hell are you talkin' about?

Are you missin' BLJACK'S posts as well..? Or Growlers'..? Why are you singling me out??

Calm down, Mark... it is OK to be wrong...

There is nowhere mention of using "caulk" where tile meets tub. If I overlooked it - then cut 'n' paste it here for me. Appreciate it.. :D

You are a blind man Milo...

Jesus! The images are posted at the site and clearly show the ADHESIVE or sealants. Really, now... A RETARD could understand the links and the images I showed you!!

I'll let others decide here since you seem to want to play games!

All others please go to the links provided by me at POST #24... exactly as posted showing you all the images and tell us what you think. Do you see grout in ALL the images or do you see sealants and adhesives..?

Never mind, once again Milo... you are the only one advocating GROUT here.. really, you need to grow up a bit huh.. I thought you were just playin'... now I can see you are just being a JERK!

MARK

Mark, no matter how big letters you use to write your responses, and how bold you make them - you are not correct. Let me know when you calm down. I don't really feel like dealing with emotional person and be called names on this beautiful , sunny, afternoon. If you want to discuss it, let me know when you are ready. In the meantime, Mark, there is nothing wrong with being wrong.. :D

Milo... you are a retard and you just keep proving it here... ;)

How is that you missed this MILO? I tried only to present the manufacturer's recommendations and you made a big deal including discounting these images I showed you the page number and the image number to find..?

Let everyone else decide... does this look like GROUT or CAULKING SEALANT..?

These images are available at the link above just to prove that Milo's just hurting this post... not helping anyone!. :)


Thanks...

MARK

Mark, I think if there is a retard in this Forum - so it is you. Nowhere in the enclosed instructions - that you had me to read twice - does manufacturer calls for "...flexible sealant..." or "...caulk..." as you try to make everybody here to believe. Period. You are wrong - and at the same time, not enough a man to admit it calling people derogatory names in the process.

It is you who incorrectly interprets "sealant" as "flexible caulk" or "caulk"...

No need to apologize for your ignorance - you are already forgiven. :D

FYI: Enclosed is Princeton definition of Sealant:

Milo... can you see the pictures or not?

Kim... sorry to hijack this post... never intended too! The manufacturer, and the other professionals here (except Milo) recommend using flexible sealant (silicone, mildew-resistant caulking, etc... ).

I think it best for you to call American Standard and check with them on this issue! I also think it is a good idea for Milo to call, too!

Good luck!

MARK

:Listening to you guys just makes me certain that I made the right choice to stay the hell out of remodels and stick with new construction and warranty repair.\
Now, to me. If the tub's plastic and will flex it's only good sense to use a caulk that won't crack. In most of our condos, except the pricey ones out on the keys and beach, we used steel tubs. Marks posting manufactures directions. Mi;lo, do you have a issue with those directions? Are installations so different from one coast to another? Since, clearly there can no meeting of the minds here this exchange should end now. You are both good plumbers and I value your opinions bet let's not lose track of why we're here and I don't see the asker getting much out of this.
Regards, tom

Ok guys -
The plumber came. Took out a piece of the ceiling below which was pretty dry at this point ( a week later) but sure enough he found a leak. Something about the gasket installation not quite right... plus the putty. Seem's okay now - but we're still not using the tub/shower. Not feeling at all confident about the caulk/grout issue (not that I want to get that debate started again!) with daily, multiple use, and looking into the possibility of redoing the whole thing. Not sure I can quite wrap my head around that yet, but it is a thought.
I'm grateful for all the valuable input - K

Kim,
Thanks for the update and putting this discussion to rest. Tom

Ok guys -
The plumber came. Took out a piece of the ceiling below which was pretty dry at this point ( a week later) but sure enough he found a leak. Something about the gasket installation not quite right... plus the putty.

Sounds like the drain shoe wasn't properly puttied and tightened -- And it likely leaked at the overflow as well.

All of these are rookie mistakes that can be discovered and corrected by filling the tub up past the overflow and visually inspected *before* the wallboard goes up.


Seem's okay now - but we're still not using the tub/shower. Not feeling at all confident about the caulk/grout issue (not that I want to get that debate started again!) with daily, multiple use, and looking into the possibility of redoing the whole thing. Not sure I can quite wrap my head around that yet, but it is a thought.
I'm grateful for all the valuable input - K

My gut tells me the tile job is likely water tight and would be servicable -- A quick way to tell would be to run the shower for 30 minutes while the ceiling down below is still open and visually check for leaks.

As for the grout/caulk issue at the tub tile transition, a person with a very steady hand and a grout saw (definitely not your tilesetter) could remove the grout and caulk the joint with a good quality elastomeric caulk.

To me, the larger issue is the visual aspect -- If it were me, I'd rip the tile and wallboard out to the bare studs and start all over from scratch with a competent tilesetter who will take the time to furr the walls out with butt strips to correct any deficiencies in the framing.

Starting tile in a corner has nothing to do with uneven grout line.