It has been quite long since anyone posted a question, so here I go.

I love to share good stuff with my friends through emails, especially Christian things which I come across internet. One of my friends, deletes my email when she finds that it contains Christain material. She says that she is not going to follow a structured religion. She says her prayers to God, but not in the name of Lord Jesus. About Christianity, she says that pastors and church leaders do/had sexually expolited people so she can not be a Christian. I explained her that coming to Jesus is having a relationship with Jesus and believing in Him is not a structured religion. Yet she is pretty adamant. I remember her in my prayers for her to come to Lord Jesus. I know that only Holy Spirit can change a person.

Should I keep trying to reach her or am I wasting my time and should "dust off my sandals?".

It has been quite long since anyone posted a question, so here I go.

I love to share good stuff with my friends through emails, especially Christian things which I come across internet. One of my friends, deletes my email when she finds that it contains Christain material. She says that she is not going to follow a structured religion. She says her prayers to God, but not in the name of Lord Jesus. About Christianity, she says that pastors and church leaders do/had sexually expolited people so she can not be a Christian. I explained her that coming to Jesus is having a relationship with Jesus and believing in Him is not a structured religion. Yet she is pretty adamant. I remember her in my prayers for her to come to Lord Jesus. I know that only Holy Spirit can change a person.

Should I keep trying to reach her or am I wasting my time and should "dust off my sandals?".

Keep praying, and keep the door open. Sometimes after the seed is planted, it takes time to come to fruition. We cannot convince a person into salvation. It takes us planting the seed, and the work of the Holy Spirit on the person's heart to bring the person to the point where they are open to receiving the truth of the gospel.

As far as how much to talk to her about it, or to send emails, that is something as a matter of prayer. There is a fine line sometimes between making sure that she knows that you are there to talk when she is ready, and perhaps being seen as an annoyance. Stay in prayer and follow God's guidance on that point.

What does the person mean by structured religion and why is that so offensive to this person? All religions have a set of beliefs that they adhere to, in that respect you could say they are structured. And the fact that someone in a particular religion has done something wrong should have nothing to do with accepting or rejecting a certain religion. Is there anyone who is without wrongdoing in their life?

Religion and Christianity has been structured from shortly after the death of Christ.

One merely has to start reading the writings of Paul to see rules that churches need to follow and how they are suppose to behave.

She is merely making excuses, the actual of others should never be something to stop your faith.
Those who don't want to admit their own desire not to accept something normally attack it by showing those that failed.

That is what I love about the bible, it tells you about how so many failed, but still were used by God or how they were able to change.

Think of which major Old testement prophets or leaders may have married a prostitute, or sleep with his daughters or perhaps had someone killed so he could marry their wife.

Think of which major Old testement prophets or leaders may have married a prostitute, or sleep with his daughters or perhaps had someone killed so he could marry thier wife.

This is a good point. The person's focus should be on the infallible word of God, and on what God has done, not on what fallible men do and have done. We will always make mistakes, but all of us can be forgiven through the blood that Christ shed on the cross.

Sooner or later everybody will run out of excuses. Some it happens when there is a major catastrophe in their lives. Sadly for all to many it will will not be until after death and they are standing before the throne to answer for their actions. All we can do is keep telling our friends about the love and grace of God. It is still up to them to make the decision.

Thank you very much folks. I would not give up on sending emails or telling about Jesus and Christianity to her and my other friends. This is a challenge I am taking up to see how long can they resist Lord Jesus. And let's see which way Holy Spirit works on them. Please remember me in your prayers.

Why are you trying to force religion on her?

I too have friends that send me religious emails, I may read them if they're interesting, but it's just for the read, not because I'm interested in joining.

If it's all about Christianity, church, etc. then it gets deleted and I ask the person to stop. I have my beliefs, I don't need or want someone else shoving theirs down my throat.

If the person insists on sending more, even after I've asked them to stop, then I block their emails.

It's almost like being raped, you've said no but they won't listen or respect it. I have no tolerance for people like that.

That's my take on it.

The more someone bullies (which is what you're doing in my opinion) the more unsavory it becomes. You won't get through this way.

She's made herself clear, why don't you respect her wishes?

Why are you trying to force religion on her?

I don't see anyone trying to force anything on anyone. It is no more forcing it on someone that you would be forcing to give a needy person to accept food that you know that need.

Praying for someopne to be saved is done out of care and love for others.

I don't see anyone trying to force anything on anyone. It is no more forcing it on someone that you would be forcing to give a needy person to accept food that you know that need.

Praying for someopne to be saved is done out of care and love for others.

Tom, she made it very clear that she didn't want any more religious emails but the OP is still going to send them because he believes that Christianity is the only way.

That's forcing.

If I sent you emails about Deism, my beliefs and you request I stop and I don't, that would be forcing you to see my views.

Pray all you want, but stop harassing her.

Also, giving a needy person food, I think we can all agree that food is a necessity. Religion isn't.

Tom, she made it very clear that she didn't want any more religious emails but the OP is still going to send them because he believes that Christianity is the only way.

That's forcing.

Then you and I have a different of forcing. If he went up to her and ordered her at gunpoint to accept his religion, that would be forcing.



If I sent you emails about Deism, my beliefs and you request I stop and I don't, that would be forcing you to see my views.

Did she say to stop? If so, I missed that - I saw that she was adamant about not becoming a Christian and deleting the emails, but I did not see where she said stop. If she did tell him to stop, then I would still disagree that it is forcing, but would agree that it would be best to stop.

As for your example, due to my ministry, I get email such as you are suggesting at a rate of dozens per day. I don't consider anyone is forcing me. Let's not exaggerate.

If your friend continued to drive drunk and told you to stop pestering her about it, would you stop?
Your friend is going down the wrong path in a deep dark forest and thinks that groping in the dark is better than using the flashlight you're offering.

If your friend continued to drive drunk and told you to stop pestering her about it, would you stop?
Your friend is going down the wrong path in a deep dark forest and thinks that groping in the dark is better than using the flashlight you're offering.

You cannot use drunk driving as a comparison.

Driving drunk is not only against the law but proven to be dangerous, even deadly. Religion is a belief, not a fact, it's not proven.

You believe what you believe, but some people's beliefs are different. My beliefs are no less then yours.

I believe that I'm going down the right path as much as you believe you are. Who are you to say I'm wrong? Who are you to say that I should follow you?

The OP's friend has beliefs, just not his. Continuing to send emails about his beliefs when she's told him she's deleting them, doesn't share his beliefs, well that's harassment.

What part of no do you not understand?

You're probably wasting your time and should dust off your sandals. But I will say this ; remind her that we're all sinners. That even includes clergy who've molested little boys, etc. Like the bumper stickers say, "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven." Anyone who cannot fathom that is not going to appreciate Christianity and it sounds like your friend falls into that category. One of Satan's most powerful tools is to exploit the inherent sinfulness of Christians (who, like everyone else inherited Adam's Original Sin and thus the propensity to sin of their own accord) and use that to turn people off to Christianity.

You cannot use drunk driving as a comparison.

Driving drunk is not only against the law but proven to be dangerous, even deadly. Religion is a belief, not a fact, it's not proven.

I disagree, and a while back was prepared to provide evidence of it reality to you, but you were not interested.


You believe what you believe, but some people's beliefs are different. My beliefs are no less then yours.

I believe that I'm going down the right path as much as you believe you are. Who are you to say I'm wrong? Who are you to say that I should follow you?

People can believe many things and believe them sincerely, but it does not make all beliefs true.


The OP's friend has beliefs, just not his. Continuing to send emails about his beliefs when she's told him she's deleting them, doesn't share his beliefs, well that's harassment.

I share emails with people all the time who do not share my beliefs and they share emails with me. I consider it conversation and exchange of views, not harassment. But I guess that is all in a person's perspective.

I disagree, and a while back was prepared to provide evidence of it reality to you, but you were not interested.

That was a year ago, when will you get over it?

Also, like I've said over and over again, I'm willing to listen, you just aren't willing to provide the info. There's a difference Tom.

It's funny how you always bring this up. Why? Don't you have anything else?

Will you ever let it go? I doubt it, but I will no longer respond to that, I won't beat a dead horse, it's pointless.


People can believe many things and believe them sincerely, but it does not make all beliefs true.

Exactly! Follow your own words Tom. Just because you believe doesn't make your beliefs true.

All you can do is believe.


I share emails with people all the time who do not share my beliefs and they share emails with me. I consider it conversation and exchange of views, not harassment. But I guess that is all in a person's perspective

If they accept the emails then it's fine. Read the OP again. His friend told him she deletes all religious emails he sends, that she's not interested in his faith. He came here asking if he should continue to shove his beliefs down her throat (before you say it, yes, I know, those weren't the words he used but it amounts to the same thing).

If the person is okay with getting the emails then fine, send them, all the more power to you. But the OP's friend isn't, yet he's decided to continue. That's harassment Tom, like it or not.

I'm more surprised that she hasn't deleted the friendship. If someone can't take no for an answer they won't be in my life for long. No means no. Do you have a problem understanding that?

That was a year ago, when will you get over it?

Truth does not fade with time.


Also, like I've said over and over again, I'm willing to listen, you just aren't willing to provide the info. There's a difference Tom.

Not true. I have never said that I am not willing to provide the information. What I indicated was that I am not going to waste time if someone decides to prejudge the information before seeing it.


Exactly! Follow your own words Tom. Just because you believe doesn't make your beliefs true.

I do and I agree. Just because I belieev it does not make it true. There must be more to the Christian faith to make something other than an empty belief - and there is.


All you can do is believe.

That may be true for you - I don't follow a blind faith.


If they accept the emails then it's fine. Read the OP again. His friend told him she deletes all religious emails he sends, that she's not interested in his faith.

I delete many emails also, and from some sources, almost all of them, but periodically one catches my eye. Who knows. The Holy Spirit may yet be working on her heart and I hate to see anyone go to hell.

If the person is okay with getting the emails then fine, send them, all the more power to you. But the OP's friend isn't, yet he's decided to continue. That's harassment Tom, like it or not.


I'm more surprised that she hasn't deleted the friendship. If someone can't take no for an answer they won't be in my life for long. No means no. Do you have a problem understanding that?

You keep saying that, but once again, did she say "no". Where did you read that she did? Deleting emails does not mean that the person has sent a cease and desist order. That is something for the person who knows her to best be in a position to assess.

You keep saying that, but once again, did she say "no".


She says that she is not going to follow a structured religion. She says her prayers to God, but not in the name of Lord Jesus. About Christianity, she says that pastors and church leaders do/had sexually expolited people so she can not be a Christian. I explained her that coming to Jesus is having a relationship with Jesus and believing in Him is not a structured religion. Yet she is pretty adamant.

Read between the lines Tom, you should be good at it, you do follow the bible after all.

As for going to hell, we'll see. I'm just as confident about my beliefs as your are about yours.

Read between the lines Tom, you should be good at it, you do follow the bible after all.

She is adamant about not following Christianity - so where does she say cease and desist?


As for going to hell, we'll see. I'm just as confident about my beliefs as your are about yours.

That is the point that I made earlier beliefs, no matter how sincere and strongly held, are not necessarily true.

That is the point that I made earlier beliefs, no matter how sincere and strongly held, are not necessarily true

And will your belief stand the test of time?

If you wanted to kiss me and I told you I didn't want to be kissed, that I don't like being kissed, that kissing is not something I do, would you still kiss me? After all, I didn't say no, not outright.

That's what the OP is doing to his friend. She doesn't want religion, she doesn't want religious emails, but he'll continue to do what he wants because he wants to.

There's a word for people who don't take hell no for an answer.

And will your belief stand the test of time?

It has lasted for the past several thousand years, and for me personally for several decades, and the more that I look into the details, the more amazed that I am at the incredible amount of evidence to validate the Christian faith.



If you wanted to kiss me and I told you I didn't want to be kissed, that I don't like being kissed, that kissing is not something I do, would you still kiss me? After all, I didn't say no, not outright.

No, my wife would be pretty upset with me :D

But to the point, that is not remotely the same. We are not talking about some 16 yr old boy trying to get a thrill from a girl in a parked car. We are talking about a situation where a person can choose to read, or choose to delete email, and has not said to stop, and where those emails could make a difference between eternity life, and eternity in hell.


There's a word for people who don't take hell no for an answer.

Where did she say "No"?

No, my wife would be pretty upset with me

Your wife would be the least of your worries. ;)


We are talking about a situation where a person can choose to read, or choose to delete email, and has not said to stop

Friends often find it hard to flat out tell their friend that they don't like what they're doing and they want it to stop.

What she has already said speaks loud and clear, if you listen.


those emails could make a difference between eternity life, and eternity in hell.

That's not what the OP's friend believes, that's what you believe.

I realize that as a Christian you don't understand the OP's friend; point of view. I do.

We're not going to agree on this Tom.

If the OP continues what he's doing I'm sure things will come to a head soon. Hopefully, when she screams no, he'll listen. Apparently she's being too subtle, even though I read it loud and clear.

When asked how best to evangelize St. Francis said, “Preach the Gospel at all times; when necessary, use words. I understand this to mean evangelization is done best by living out one's Catholic faith; it's the example that says volumes.

JoeT

I understand this to mean evangelization is done best by living out one’s Catholic faith; it’s the example that says volumes. Joe, I agree with you.

Your wife would be the least of your worries. ;)

Well, we will never know, because I would not have any interest in any case!



Friends often find it hard to flat out tell their friend that they don't like what they're doing and they want it to stop.

It depends upon the relationship. Since it appears that neither you nor I are involved in that relationship between those two friends, it seems to me that those who are, are best placed to make that call as to the intent of her comments. I am happy to leave it with him.

You apparently feel that you can judge the situation without knowing that important detail. I don't agree.

Well, we will never know, because I would not have any interest in any case!

Well, my attempt to lighten the mood didn't work well, did it?

Tom, really, you wouldn't have a snowballs chance in hell. That's not a belief, that's a fact, they're what I deal with.

I have to agree with alten, and joe. Continuing to send emails she has no desire to receive, let alone read will accomplish nothing other than to convince her even further that christians are pushy and are only out to make everyone believe what they believe. The best way to influence her opinion is to live by example. Show her with your actions that not all christians are the same, instead of preaching to her at every opportunity.

If you still want to send her emails you can just remove overtly religious messages. Anything that ends with anything along the lines of "forward this message and you will be saved," "if you don't forward this message you are denying god," or scripture verse of any kind is probably a bad idea. I find that most of the religiously-toned emails I get have the same impact if you just remove the last line or two, which is usually the ONLY part that has a religious message. Since your friend prays, I doubt she would be offended by emails mentioning prayer.

Now, just to address a personal quibble. Tj3, there are many religions that are much older than christianity. If you place so much worth in how long a religion has been alive, then christianity is losing. Hinduism, shamanism, judaism, and many forms of paganism (just to name a few offhand) have been around for hundreds, in some cases thousands, of years longer than christianity. The followers of those religions will tell you just as certainly as you are telling us that there has been proof through it all that their religion is true. The length of time a particular belief system has been around says more about the strength of the believers and the ability of the message to last through time than the validity or truth behind it.

Well, my attempt to lighten the mood didn't work well, did it?

Oh Alty, apparently you did not see my response to your original "joke". Oh well.

It would help the mood if you would converse with us a bit more, rather than just assume that we know nothing and then come down on us if we don't agree with you.

I'd love to sometime have a chance to really have a good open discussion with you, without the "barbs". I've tried, but it takes two.

Now, just to address a personal quibble. Tj3, there are many religions that are much older than christianity. If you place so much worth in how long a religion has been alive, then christianity is losing. Hinduism, shamanism, judaism, and many forms of paganism (just to name a few offhand) have been around for hundreds, in some cases thousands, of years longer than christianity.

First, Christianity is an extension of Judaism, and this religion goes back to the time of creation, so I am not sure how much older you can get than that. Christianity is simply a term given to those who follow the religion that started with Adam and Eve, carried on through the Jewish nation. It prophesied the coming of Christ, and those who followed the Messiah when He came were called Christians.


the followers of those religions will tell you just as certainly as you are telling us that there has been proof through it all that their religion is true. The length of time a particular belief system has been around says more about the strength of the believers and the ability of the message to last through time than the validity or truth behind it.

No one would follow any religion if they did not think it to be true. The question is whether there is evidence of its validity.

I do not see any point in continuing to send these emails.

Personally, I receive these emails all too often and it frustrates me to no end.

Especially those ones that try to entice you to pass it on like

"if you want to stand up for what you believe in, pass this on..."
"if this story touched you in any way, pass it on..."
"if you are not afraid to let the world know you believe..."

Of course, this is just another example of how religion tries to use fear, guilt, and shame to "entice" people to believe in what THEY believe in.

Your friend is just deleting these emails anyway... what good do you REALLY think you are doing?

People will not come to know God, whichever one it may be, just because they are on yours, or any one else's, email distribution list.

Dr. J, I had to spread the rep, but I agree.

You know what, Triund, keep sending the emails, no harm done, she's deleting them anyway.

Will she be ticked that your refuse to listen, probably, but she can keep her beliefs and you can pretend that you're getting through.

It's a win win.

Oh Alty, apparently you did not see my response to your original "joke". Oh well.

Yes I did, and then I tried to make another to keep the mood light and you stomped on it.

No worries, I tried, I should know better by now, but apparently I still believe that maybe, just maybe, we can have a discussion without you constantly going for the jugular.

We'll never agree Tom. I honestly think you're intimidated by me and that's why you won't even give an inch.

After all, I'm a woman, how dare I question you? :rolleyes:

What you fail to understand is that I'm an educated woman. I'm not some twit without a mind. You have to do more then just tell me "I believe so it is" because that won't work on me.

I've said it before, I'm not a sheep, I refuse to be a sheep. I follow the path that makes the most sense to me, not the one everyone else is following.

I'll unsubscribe to the thread, let you all continue your ramblings.

Good luck everyone.

Triund, how would you feel if she, or another friend of yours, began sending you emails reciting from the Book of Mormon? Or passages from the Tao Te Ching?

Yes I did, and then I tried to make another to keep the mood light and you stomped on it.

As I said, it is a matter of perspective. Some people always seem to see the worst in others and interpret everything they say in that manner. So for some folks, it would not matter what I said.


No worries, I tried, I should know better by now, but apparently I still believe that maybe, just maybe, we can have a discussion without you constantly going for the jugular.

You must be mis-reading the message - it is you always going for the jugular. Stop going for the juglar and try to see, How will you know until you stop doing it. Heaven knows I have tried to have a respectful discussion with you time and again.

If you think it the other way, put down your hatchet now and start talking to me like another human and let's see where it goes.


We'll never agree Tom. I honestly think you're intimidated by me and that's why you won't even give an inch.

You wish. :p


After all, I'm a woman, how dare I question you? :rolleyes:

You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about that. I never said or implied anything along this lines, but it seems to make you feel good to put down men who disagree with you. I can only ponder why. Does that make you feel good?


I'll unsubscribe to the thread, let you all continue your ramblings.

As you wish. The discussion was going along quite amiably until you decided to start throwing barbs.

Anytime you decide for real that you wish to discuss something respectfully, I will never close the door on you.

This person has been hurt by the Church, there are many such persons. All you can do is pray for her salvation and be a friend. Don't try to change her views or confront her, you only need to tell a person the gospel once after that it is up to them

As I said, it is a matter of perspective. Some people always seem to see the worst in others and interpret everything they say in that manner. So for some folks, it would not matter what I said.

You must be mis-reading the message - it is you always going for the jugular. Stop going for the juglar and try to see, How will you know until you stop doing it. Heaven knows I have tried to have a respectful discussion with you time and again.

If you think it the other way, put down your hatchet now and start talking to me like another human and let's see where it goes.


Wrong.

Tom, you really are blind to the way you treat people.

Do you ever stop stating the same thing over and over and over again?

I don't have a hatchet. I'd love to discuss things with you. How many times have you proven it's not possible? I do have a shield because that's what's required when dealing with you.

Tom, really, it takes two to communicate. Two! You just want to preach, that's not communication.

Every time I post you pick apart what I say and twist it to suit you. Yes, I've done the same, when in Rome...

Then you bring up past posts because you have nothing new. Do you really think that constantly trying to rehash the past is the way to open communication?

Now you'll quote me, pick apart what I've said then claim that you're innocent, didn't have anything to do with it, it's all me.

You're very predictable. I'll just sit back and wait.

As for the thread moving along fine until I came. Yes, I agree. I came in and told all of you that we none Christians don't like having your beliefs shoved down our throats. Of course you don't agree. Of course you're going to get defensive. Does it make it any less true? No.

Really Tom, there's not point in us trying to talk. You won't let the past go and I'm tired of hearing about it. Until you can forgive and forget, listen and learn, there can't be communication, only arguments.

Good luck.

Wrong.

Tom, you really are blind to the way you treat people.

Do you ever stop stating the same thing over and over and over again?

Here we go again. Are you going to try to disrupt and get this thread shut down?


I don't have a hatchet. I'd love to discuss things with you. How many times have you proven it's not possible? I do have a shield because that's what's required when dealing with you.

Alty,

It seems every time that you get on a thread where I am, you go into a personal rant until the thread is shut down. How is that trying to discuss?



As for the thread moving along fine until I came. Yes, I agree. I came in and told all of you that we none Christians don't like having your beliefs shoved down our throats. Of course you don't agree. Of course you're going to get defensive.

You came on here comparing us to rapists.

You came on here comparing us to rapists.

I didn't actually say you're rapists. Did I?

Just like the OP's friend didn't actually say no.

Are you reading between the lines Tom? Isn't that what you accused me of doing?

Interesting.

I didn't actually say you're rapists. Did I?

And I did not say that you did, did I? But you did compare us to rapists.

What is your reason for coming on to threads like this anyway? Hijack and disrupt?

And I did not say that you did, did I? But you did compare us to rapists.

What is your reason for coming on to threads like this anyway? Hijack and disrupt?

I said that not taking no for an answer makes the person saying no feel like she's being raped.

I never did say the word rapist Tom.

What's my reason? To set the record straight, that's all. To point out that bullying someone and forcing them to accept your beliefs is not the way to get anyone to believe. It's wrong, it's a violation, and I for one am done putting up with it.

But of course you'd see at as hijacking and disruptive, because you love to accuse, to stir the pot.

Someone had to come here and stand up for the OP's friend. The woman that doesn't want Christianity but come hell or high water will have it force fed to her.

Hopefully she has some back bone and doesn't put up with it much longer.

Isn't it time for you to report the thread Tom? That's your MO.

Good luck.

I said that not taking no for an answer makes the person saying no feel like she's being raped.

I never did say the word rapist Tom.

Ah, so it is okay to compare us to people who rape as long as you don't use the word "rapist". Is that it?


What's my reason? To set the record straight, that's all. To point out that bullying someone and forcing them to accept your beliefs is not the way to get anyone to believe. It's wrong, it's a violation, and I for one am done putting up with it.

Like you are on here badgering us to accept your views on this matter?


Isn't it time for you to report the thread Tom? That's your MO.

Didn't you say that you were going to unsubscribe? Why not do so and let the discussion proceed amiably as it was beforehand.

Ah, so it is okay to compare us to people who rape as long as you don't use the word "rapist". Is that it?

And it's okay to keep harassing someone that's asked you to stop just because she didn't actually say the word "no"?


Like you are on here badgering us to accept your views on this matter?

Ditto.


Didn't you say that you were going to unsubscribe? Why not do so and let the discussion proceed amiably as it was beforehand.

I've decided to stick around.

You can ignore me if you wish.

One of my friends, deletes my email when she finds that it contains Christain material.

Am I wasting my time

Yes your wasting your time , hello , she deletes them

Can't believe this has gone for nearly 5 pages , oh then again yes I can :rolleyes:

And it's okay to keep harassing someone that's asked you to stop just because she didn't actually say the word "no"?

Nor have we been told that is even the message that she has been giving.


I've decided to stick around.

Then please cease and desist trying to hijack and disrupt the thread. Please participate respectfully.

Try to get this back on track now... here is my prior response on the topic...

Keep praying, and keep the door open. Sometimes after the seed is planted, it takes time to come to fruition. We cannot convince a person into salvation. It takes us planting the seed, and the work of the Holy Spirit on the person's heart to bring the person to the point where they are open to receiving the truth of the gospel.

As far as how much to talk to her about it, or to send emails, that is something as a matter of prayer. There is a fine line sometimes between making sure that she knows that you are there to talk when she is ready, and perhaps being seen as an annoyance. Stay in prayer and follow God's guidance on that point.

Okay.

Here's my prior response;


Why are you trying to force religion on her?

I too have friends that send me religious emails, I may read them if they're interesting, but it's just for the read, not because I'm interested in joining.

If it's all about Christianity, church, etc. then it gets deleted and I ask the person to stop. I have my beliefs, I don't need or want someone else shoving theirs down my throat.

If the person insists on sending more, even after I've asked them to stop, then I block their emails.

It's almost like being raped, you've said no but they won't listen or respect it. I have no tolerance for people like that.

That's my take on it.

The more someone bullies (which is what you're doing in my opinion) the more unsavory it becomes. You won't get through this way.

She's made herself clear, why don't you respect her wishes?

I don't see anyone trying to force anything on anyone. It is no more forcing it on someone that you would be forcing to give a needy person to accept food that you know that need.

Praying for someone to be saved is done out of care and love for others.

I feel sorry for you if you think that there is any way to compare a person expressing love as comparable to a rapist.

I don't see anyone trying to force anything on anyone. It is no more forcing it on someone that you would be forcing to give a needy person to accept food that you know that need.

Praying for someone to be saved is done out of care and love for others.

I feel sorry for you if you think that there is any way to compare a person expressing love as comparable to a rapist.

Tom, read carefully.


It's almost like being raped

When a telephone solicitor calls me trying to sell a product I don't want and I say no, does he have the right to keep pushing?

Praying for someone and continuing to send emails that person has told you she doesn't want, different things entirely Tom.

Pray all you want. Stop sending material she deletes. Respect her beliefs like you expect her to respect yours.

Really, we're just going to go around in circles again.

You can't go one post without dredging up things you said you wanted to leave behind.

Unsuscribing.

I'm taking the high road.

Continue.

Tom, read carefully.

I've read everything that was posted.



When a telephone solicitor calls me trying to sell a product I don't want and I say no, does he have the right to keep pushing?


So did the girl say no?

First, Christianity is an extension of Judaism, and this religion goes back to the time of creation, so I am not sure how much older you can get than that. Christianity is simply a term given to those who follow the religion that started with Adam and Eve, carried on through the Jewish nation. It prophesied the coming of Christ, and those who followed the Messiah when He came were called Christians.

I am well aware of the fact that christianity has it's deepest roots in judaism. I also know that they are not the same religion. Christianity, itself, is just under 2000 years old. It may have roots in judaism, as well as numerous other religions, but it was only been a separate religion reletively short time.

Christianity is, according to merriam-webster, is the religion derived from Jesus Christ, based on the Bible as sacred scripture, and professed by Eastern, Roman Catholic, and Protestant bodies. Christianity and judaism are two very separate and distinct religions. Judaism, as a religion, has been around since about 1500 bce. Christianity has only been around since about 50 ce. To call christianity an extension of judaism is to disrespect both religions as the individual belief systems that they are. It is the equivalent of saying you are your father simply because you came from him.


No one would follow any religion if they did not think it to be true. The question is whether there is evidence of its validity.

I'm not saying anyone would follow a religion they believed to be false. What I'm saying is that almost any believer of any religion will be willing and ready to present evidence of what they see as proof that their religion is true. In the end what you end up with are several people claiming certain events, relics, histories, or places as proof that their religion is truer (and usually better) than other religions. There is no way to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, to the satisfaction of even two separate religions that one is truer than the other. To do so only leads to anger and wars.

To me it makes a lot better sense to just let people find whatever proof they need for whatever religion they choose to follow, and not argue over rather or not the proof is real or what religion is better. There would be FAR fewer wars if everyone just sat back and saw religion for what it is, a personal belief system that happens to be shared by several individuals who choose to gather for religious ceremonies and follow the guidelines presented by the holy books and/or leaders of that belief system. It's not a popularity contest. It's not a race. It's not a test. It's a personal belief system.

I am well aware of the fact that christianity has it's deepest roots in judaism. I also know that they are not the same religion. Christianity, itself, is just under 2000 years old. It may have roots in judaism, as well as numerous other religions, but it was only been a separate religion reletively short time.

In actual fact, Christianity is just fulfilled Judaism. The believers in the Jewish messiah originally met in the same synagogues even. We follow the Jewish Messiah, the one prophecied right from genesis 3:15 onward. And no, it is not based upon other religions. I am not sure where you got your information from.


I'm not saying anyone would follow a religion they believed to be false. What I'm saying is that almost any believer of any religion will be willing and ready to present evidence of what they see as proof that their religion is true.

Most hold their religions to be true by faith alone. And once again just because a person believes something does not make it true.


to me it makes a lot better sense to just let people find whatever proof they need for whatever religion they choose to follow, and not argue over rather or not the proof is real or what religion is better.

There is a difference. If you choose the wrong god, your eternity is at stake. That is not better


it's not a popularity contest. It's not a race. It's not a test. It's a personal belief system.

I agree that it is not a popularity contest, but it is also not just just a belief system. There are real consequences, both here and in eternity for choosing to believe in a false god rather than the one true God.

Why are you trying to force religion on her?

I too have friends that send me religious emails, I may read them if they're interesting, but it's just for the read, not because I'm interested in joining.

I am not forcing a religion on her. I am only sharing with her what I know. If I had lot of information and knowledge about ants, spaceships, seas, galaxies, clothes, politics and so on, I would had shared information about those things with her and my other friends.



If the person insists on sending more, even after I've asked them to stop, then I block their emails.

The day she or others tell me categorically not to send them any email which has Jesus or Christian contents, I would stop it. However, I won't stop praying for them.


It's almost like being raped, you've said no but they won't listen or respect it. I have no tolerance for people like that.


It is not "almost like being raped". Do you know what fanatics from other religions have done and do to convert a person into their religion. And I am not a fanatic yet. Am I heading on the road to fanaticism - I do not think so. Even Christian pastors have done wrong with humans in te name of religion, but that is not the way which is pleasing to Lord Jesus. And they would have to answer for their actions when they see God.


That's my take on it.

Thank you very much for your honest answer. This helped me to get the perspective from the other end.

If I had lot of information and knowledge about ants, spaceships, seas, galaxies, clothes, politics and so on, I would had shared information about those things with her and my other friends. If she said she wasn't interested in ants would you still send the emails about ants to her?

Boy, has this discussion swerved off course!
Triund, I think you are right. As Christians we are called to go and preach the gospel to all the world (MK16:15). If you have someone slam the door in your face (specifically tell you to STOP) and you were to continue, then that would be wrong. However like you have tried to point out to certain people in this discussion no one has ever said stop! So you are directed by the Lord to witness to them. Keep it up unless or until you are told to STOP! And I will continue to pray for your boldness to do it in the face of opposition.

If she said she wasn't interested in ants would you still send the emails about ants to her?

That's the whole issue. People love to talk on any topic and love to get as much info as they can on any topic other than Jesus, the Bible or Christianity.

Boy, has this discussion swerved off course!
Triund, I think you are right. As Christians we are called to go and preach the gospel to all the world (MK16:15). If you have someone slam the door in your face (specifically tell you to STOP) and you were to continue, then that would be wrong. However like you have tried to point out to certain people in this discussion no one has ever said stop! So you are directed by the Lord to witness to them. Keep it up unless or until you are told to STOP! And I will continue to pray for your boldness to do it in the face of opposition.

Thank you, Donn. God bless you.

Triund, how would you feel if she, or another friend of yours, began sending you emails reciting from the Book of Mormon? Or passages from the Tao Te Ching?

When I get emails from my friends who are Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims (Sorry, I do not anyone who is Mormon or others ), I read the emails and if there is anything I can learn, I take it and then delete it.

In actual fact, Christianity is just fulfilled Judaism. The believers in the Jewish messiah originally met in the same synagogues even. We follow the Jewish Messiah, the one prophecied right from genesis 3:15 onward. And no, it is not based upon other religions. I am not sure where you got your information from.

Many rituals and traditions in christianity have their roots in paganism.

Christmas was placed in December to ease the transition from paganism to christianity. Yule, the pagan holiday celebrating the birth of the sun god, was turned into christmas, the celebration of the son of god. Many of the symbols were kept as well. Candles, which later evolved into twinkle lights, were a symbol of the sun gods light. The yule log was kept from the previous year and burned again that year as a symbol of rebirth and the return of the sun god.

Easter started as eostara, the pagan holiday celebrating the roman goddess of fertility. I don't know what connection early christians drew between a fertility celebration and the resurrection of christ in order to commender the day. The symbols of the rabbit and the egg are left over from the pagan fertility rite.

Even the cross itself did not begin with christianity. There are depictions of crosses from thousands of years before christianity. It is thought that they were seen as a symbol of equality, and sometimes of the four cardinal directions.


There is a difference. If you choose the wrong god, your eternity is at stake. That is not better

That is a matter of opinion. Not every religion has an equivalent to hell. Not even every christian believes in hell.

Besides, believers of other religions feel just as strongly that their religion will save them and grant them eternal bliss. Believers of reincarnation, for instance, believe that living a good life now insures that they will be born into a better life in the future, generally culminating in an end to the reincarnation cycle and the right to spend eternity at complete peace within nirvana, the cosmic energy.


I agree that it is not a popularity contest, but it is also not just just a belief system. There are real consequences, both here and in eternity for choosing to believe in a false god rather than the one true God.

I'm just curious, what real consequences would I suffer right now if I didn't believe in the christian gods? And what consequences would I suffer in eternity? And what proof do you have of both?

I'm not being confrontational. I am honestly curious. I have heard many people claim, and even promise, terrible consequences for those who are not christian. I have just never heard anything that convinced me that any one religion has more merit than any other.

I'm just curious, what real consequences would i suffer right now if i didn't believe in the christian gods? and what consequences would i suffer in eternity? and what proof do you have of both?

I'm not being confrontational. i am honestly curious. i have heard many people claim, and even promise, terrible consequences for those who are not christian. i have just never heard anything that convinced me that any one religion has more merit than any other.

First of all, Christianity does not believe in gods, but ONE GOD. So I am not sure if that was a typo or not, but please lets clear that up right up front.
Faith is the belief in things not seen. So if you have faith and believe in GOD. Then you start reading the bible. Many will try and claim it is simply a history book. And while that part is true, it also contains information on how we as believers are to try and live our lives. It also tells us what will happen in the future. You see, reading the bible there are hundreds of prophesies, most of them written hundreds of years before they were fulfilled. But they were fulfilled exactly as foretold in the bible. If you choose not to believe what is written in the Bible, that is your choice and in the end, if we(Christians) are all wrong about this then you will have nothing to loose. But on the other hand, if the bible is all true and in the end comes a judgment time, you will be held accountable as the bible teaches, and be cast into the lake of fire for all eternity. Personally while I am not perfect by any stretch of the imagination I do get down and thank God for my salvation and ask for forgiveness for the mistakes I make each day. It is all and always your choice to make the decisions about Christ. That is one of the most wonderful curses God bestowed on man. The wonderful ability to make our own choices, and the curse of having to make our own choices.

First of all, Christianity does not believe in gods, but ONE GOD. so I am not sure if that was a typo or not, but please lets clear that up right up front.
Faith is the belief in things not seen. So if you have faith and believe in GOD. then you start reading the bible. Many will try and claim it is simply a history book. And while that part is true, it also contains information on how we as believers are to try and live our lives. It also tells us what will happen in the future. You see, reading the bible there are hundreds of prophesies, most of them written hundreds of years before they were fulfilled. But they were fulfilled exactly as foretold in the bible. If you choose not to believe what is written in the Bible, that is your choice and in the end, if we(Christians) are all wrong about this then you will have nothing to loose. But on the other hand, if the bible is all true and in the end comes a judgment time, you will be held accountable as the bible teaches, and be cast into the lake of fire for all eternity. Personally while I am not perfect by any stretch of the imagination I do get down and thank God for my salvation and ask for forgiveness for the mistakes I make each day. It is all and always your choice to make the decisions about Christ. That is one of the most wonderful curses God bestowed on man. The wonderful ability to make our own choices, and the curse of having to make our own choices.

Sorry, I didn't notice the typo. I didn't mean to confuse or offend anyone.

............ Especially those ones that try to entice you to pass it on like

"if you want to stand up for what you believe in, pass this on..."
"if this story touched you in any way, pass it on..."
"if you are not afraid to let the world know you believe..."

Of course, this is just another example of how religion tries to use fear, guilt, and shame to "entice" people to believe in what THEY believe in.

Your friend is just deleting these emails anyway... what good do you REALLY think you are doing?

People will not come to know God, whichever one it may be, just because they are on yours, or any one elses, email distribution list.

I do not forward emails to people because that have the lines like" if you don't send this to five of your friends, you will have misfortune ...and blah blah blah.....". But if the content in the email is good, or music and graphics are good, I forward it. Other than that, the emails I send to people, carry the links to some YouTube video, some website or a clip of a news, story, new resaerch or some incidence which I found on internet, from which I learnt something and enjoy it and feel that my friends should also enjoy that.

The reason for doing is that nobody has enough time to sit down and get every info available. We all share good news and good things with our nears and dears. We give them the headlines of the news and if they are want to know more in detail, they can do more research on that. And that`s why, I share Jesus and stories from the Bible and people`s testimony about Jesus or their lives with my friends who are both Christians and non Christians. I am not bringing horse to water, but rather taking water to the horse, knowing very well that horse will refuse to drink water. But I know that the horse won`t want to die of thirst. That is why I replenish the water in a trough for him. Yet still, if the horse is adamant to die of thirst, then I come out clean and dust off my sandals.

many rituals and traditions in christianity have their roots in paganism.

I would agree if you said that many rituals performed in churches which profess to be Christian have their roots in paganism. But Christianity is defined by what scripture teaches, not by what certain churches or denominations choose to teach or in some cases add to what the Bible teaches. Many such denominations or churches have added pagan or other rituals into their denomination, or added traditions and other doctrines or beliefs not found into scripture into their theology.


that is a matter of opinion. Not every religion has an equivalent to hell. Not even every christian believes in hell.

Christianity once again is defined by what scripture teaches, not by majority vote on what certain people who profess to be Christian teach.


besides, believers of other religions feel just as strongly that their religion will save them and grant them eternal bliss. Believers of reincarnation, for instance, believe that living a good life now insures that they will be born into a better life in the future, generally culminating in an end to the reincarnation cycle and the right to spend eternity at complete peace within nirvana, the cosmic energy.

Many people believe in very strange things like worshiping Elvis. It does not mean all are equally right.



I'm just curious, what real consequences would i suffer right now if i didn't believe in the christian gods?

First of all, there is only ONE God, not gods. If you wish to criticize Christianity, you'd be far more effective if you found out more about what Christianity is beforehand.


and what consequences would i suffer in eternity? And what proof do you have of both?

First, you are taking this thread very much off course and the question that you are asking reaches into a much wider sphere. To tell you briefly, the consequences that you suffer are because of your sin. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. So the fact is that all of us are worthy of suffer the punishment, which in scripture is eternity in the lake of fire.

Too often people claim that God sends people to hell simply for not believing in Him. No, it is not that simple. It is because we first sinned and we are bearing the consequences of our sin, and have condemned ourselves.

What God did is that He came to earth manifest in the flesh, as a man, and went to cross that He might pay the price for us, and all we need to do is to accept that free gift, and this is where believing in Him comes in - and by accepting that gift, the price for that sin is paid and you no longer have to be subject to that penalty. Now, how would you accept a gift from someone that you don't believe exists or you don't believe is capable of doing what He said. So that is where believing in Him is important.

The evidence would take longer, and I am not prepared at this time to pull all that together because I am getting ready for a talk that I am doing tonight. Basically it comes down to the credibility of the source, and the evidence for the credibility of the source being what it claims to be is overwhleming.



I'm not being confrontational. I am honestly curious.

If that is true, might I suggest that you put the guns back in the holster, and instead of entering on the attack, come in and ask questions. There are many of us quite willing to answer questions, but when someone comes on here attacking Christianity and demonstrating very little understanding of it, that does not come across as curious.

First of all, there is only ONE God, not gods. If you wish to criticize Christianity, you'd be far more effective if you found out more about what Christianity is beforehand.

I already apologized for my typo in a previous post. I didn't catch it before and I'm sorry for any confusion or offense it might have created.

I was raised devoutly christian and am well aware that there is only christian god. My fingers merely got ahead of me and added an extra letter.

Triund,
I agree with several who posted on this and Altenweg has made a good point.
Keep the door open but do not try to force religion on your e-mail friend.
Be gentle and kind and keep in mind that Christianity is a religion of attraction the way that Jesus himself set it up.
Prayer to the Holy Spirit id powerful and will work IF the Holy Spirit decides so.
So don't give up. The time may likely come when there will be a knock on your open door attitude.
If a person prays to God it is the beginning of a structured religion.
The holy Bible is full of structured religion.
Does your friend read the bible?
Perhaps your friend is referring more to organized religions has we have many of today.
Gently ask questions for more clarity so you understand better.
Invite questions from your friend about your belief.
Those are some of the paths you might use ti be more helpful and understanding.
Good luck. I pray that your efforts will eventually be successful.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

many rituals and traditions in christianity have their roots in paganism.

easter started off as eostara, the pagan holiday celebrating the roman goddess of fertility.

'Christmas' is likely late Old English word Cristes Maesse, the Mass of Christ, originating around 1038.

I've always heard non-Catholics make the claim that Christmas was a pagan ritual, or that it had its roots are in a pagan ritual. Can you explain how you came to this conclusion? It would seem to me that the argument is a non sequitur; if it's a Feast day or Holy Day celebrating Christ's birth how is related to a pagan ceremony? Are you implying that early really practiced pagan worship? If this is the argument how and when did Christianity come into the picture? Christmas along with Epiphany was added to the least of the Catholic feasts days in the fourth century. Irenaeus (c. 115 A.D. – c. 200 A.D.±) and Tertullian (160 A.D. - extreme old age) omit Christmas from their list of feast days so it can be assumed that the celebration of Christ's birth wasn't as important In the early Church as it is today. That it was established on December 25th is no more significant than the correlation of your birthday with any one of the tens of thousands pagan feast days. I bet if you look, you'll find at least one or two. My birthday falls on the Feast of Epiphany, I wonder if that means I'm a wise man?
Source: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Christmas (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm)

The origin of the word Easter is unknown. The Roman Goddess of fertility was Bona Dea. The name of mythological goddess Bona Dea means "the good goddess". She was the Goddess of healing, virginity, women, as well as fertility. Sometimes called Fauna she was the daughter of Faunus. (don't ask who he is, haven't a clue) How did you get Easter out of Bona Dea? If you're referring to the Teutonic goddess of the rising light of day and spring, her name is Edda. Doesn't seem to fit does it? Easter --> Edda; I can't make the connection with 'Easter'. Do you make this stuff up all the time?

Easter is the celebration of the Chris's resurrection. It was during the Jewish Passover that Christ was crucified, died, was buried, descended into hell, on the third day he rose from the dead.

JoeT

JoeT777,
Well said. I agree.
There is NO pagan connection.
Fred

The origin of the word Easter is unknown. The Roman Goddess of fertility was Bona Dea. The name of mythological goddess Bona Dea means "the good goddess". She was the Goddess of healing, virginity, women, as well as fertility. Sometimes called Fauna she was the daughter of Faunus. (don’t ask who he is, haven’t a clue) How did you get Easter out of Bona Dea? If you’re referring to the Teutonic goddess of the rising light of day and spring, her name is Edda. Doesn’t seem to fit does it? Easter --> Edda; I can’t make the connection with 'Easter'. Do you make this stuff up all the time?

No need to be rude to him. He has a point. Easter is named after the pagan god Ishtar, and the holiday was created by Constantine just after he formed the Roman Catholic denomination. He issued a letter (which was quite anti-semitic) the translation of which I can post here if you wish, which order that the date of the celebration of Easter be moved from the date of Passover (which is what it originally was) in order to avoid being associated with the Jews.


Easter is the celebration of the Chris’s resurrection. It was during the Jewish Passover that Christ was crucified, died, was buried, descended into hell, on the third day he rose from the dead.


I agree that it is the celebration of Christ's death and resurrection, but there is certainly a bit of an ugly side regarding the date of and naming of Easter that, if we are to be honest, we cannot deny.

‘Christmas’ is likely late Old English word Cristes Maesse, the Mass of Christ, originating around 1038.

I’ve always heard non-Catholics make the claim that Christmas was a pagan ritual, or that it had its roots are in a pagan ritual. Can you explain how you came to this conclusion? It would seem to me that the argument is a non sequitur; if it’s a Feast day or Holy Day celebrating Christ’s birth how is related to a pagan ceremony? Are you implying that early really practiced pagan worship? If this is the argument how and when did Christianity come into the picture? Christmas along with Epiphany was added to the least of the Catholic feasts days in the fourth century. Irenaeus (c. 115 A.D. – c. 200 A.D.±) and Tertullian (160 A.D. - extreme old age) omit Christmas from their list of feast days so it can be assumed that the celebration of Christ’s birth wasn’t as important In the early Church as it is today. That it was established on December 25th is no more significant than the correlation of your birthday with any one of the tens of thousands pagan feast days. I bet if you look, you’ll find at least one or two. My birthday falls on the Feast of Epiphany, I wonder if that means I’m a wise man?
Source: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Christmas (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm)

The origin of the word Easter is unknown. The Roman Goddess of fertility was Bona Dea. The name of mythological goddess Bona Dea means "the good goddess". She was the Goddess of healing, virginity, women, as well as fertility. Sometimes called Fauna she was the daughter of Faunus. (don’t ask who he is, haven’t a clue) How did you get Easter out of Bona Dea? If you’re referring to the Teutonic goddess of the rising light of day and spring, her name is Edda. Doesn’t seem to fit does it? Easter --> Edda; I can’t make the connection with 'Easter'. Do you make this stuff up all the time?

Easter is the celebration of the Chris’s resurrection. It was during the Jewish Passover that Christ was crucified, died, was buried, descended into hell, on the third day he rose from the dead.

JoeT

I never said that christmas was a pagan ritual, just that a pagan ritual was displaced to make way for christmas. If you look into the history of christmas, which you obviously have, and the history of christianity's spread to northern europe, specifically england and ireland, you'll notice that christmas essentially came about at around the same time that the catholic church started converting the english isles. In order to hasten the conversion process and eliminate the pagan religions faster the church found ways to twist some of the pagan beliefs, and even holidays, to fit their message. It was a common practice in the early days of christianity. As I stated before, they turned the pagan celebration of the birth of the sun god into the christian celebration of the birth of the son of god. The fact that it now falls on December 25 has more to do with the restructuring of the calendar done by Pope Gregory XIII in 1582. The pagan holiday of yule actually falls on the winter equinox, which generally falls on December 21.
Origin of Christmas (http://www.origin-of-christmas.com/)

The word easter is most likely from Ostara, also called Eostre or Eastre, (sorry, I got the spelling wrong before). No matter which way it's spelled (which depends on which land in which the goddess was worshiped and the particular dialect), she was always a goddess of spring and fertility, among other things. The rabbit and hen were seen as sacred to her, as symbols of fertility and rebirth. Easter is still celebrated on the same day that the ancient, pagan ritual was observed on; the first Sunday after the first fullmoon following the spring equinox (which is why it moves so much from year to year). Christians saw the holiday as a convenient day to celebrate what was first passover and then turned into a celebration of jesus' resurrection. The celebration of spring, which was seen as the rebirth of nature, seemed like the perfect day to celebrate the rebirth of christ. It was also a handy way to settle a debate that had been troubling the church for several years, when to celebrate a previously jewish holiday that was becoming increasingly more christian.
Pagan Roots of Easter Customs: Here Comes Ol? Cottontail?. | Suite101.com (http://paganismwicca.suite101.com/article.cfm/pagan_roots_of_easter_customs)

What is the origin of Easter? - ChristianAnswers.Net (http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t020.html)

The Real Meaning of Easter (http://www.datejesus.com/sermons/easter/)

Easter, the History, Date, and Contemporary Meaning (http://www.godweb.org/easter.htm)


Sorry I have more links for easter than christmas, but the information is more patchy concerning easter because it the conversion from ostara to easter was less seamless than that of yule to christmas. Some of the links under easter have information on christmas as well.

Once again, I don't claim that easter or christmas as pagan holidays or that early christians were worshiping pagan gods. They merely saw a way to convert the northern europeans to christianity by changing the reason behind some of their holidays. It's easier to change the meaning behind a celebration than to outlaw it. The early christians saw nothing wrong with creatively twisting a few words, tweaking a phrase, or adapting native customs if it meant that converting was easier and 'held' better.

No need to be rude to him. He has a point. Easter is named after the pagan god Ishtar, and the holiday was created by Constantine just after he formed the Roman Catholic denomination. He issued a letter (which was quite anti-semitic) the translation of which I can post here if you wish, which order that the date of the celebration of Easter be moved from the date of Passover (which is what it originally was) in order to avoid being associated with the Jews.



I agree that it is the celebration of Christ's death and resurrection, but there is certainly a bit of an ugly side regarding the date of and naming of Easter that, if we are to be honest, we cannot deny.

There’s a difference between being rude and emphatic. Such nonsense as this is just plain simple stupid (FYI, that’s an emphatic statement not a rude one).

Ishtar is the Babylonian goddess of sex not Roman – which way do you want to spin, a pagan Roman holiday or a pagan Babylonian holiday? What relationship would there be between Constantine and Ishtar? And how does Ishtar relate to the fact that the date of Easter is calculated different from that of Passover? The point is that your schismatic man made traditions don’t change the fact that Easter, as we know it today, as it was known in the early Church was a Christian Holy observance of Christ’s crucifixion, death, and resurrection. There is no ugly side to it, because there is simply no connection.

JoeT

What has any of this got to do with the OP's topic. Moderator needs to close this thread as it has drifted way too far off topic!

i never said that christmas was a pagan ritual, just that a pagan ritual was displaced to make way for christmas. if you look into the history of christmas, which you obviously have, and the history of christianity's spread to northern europe, specifically england and ireland, you'll notice that christmas essentially came about at around the same time that the catholic church started converting the english isles. in order to hasten the conversion process and eliminate the pagan religions faster the church found ways to twist some of the pagan beliefs, and even holidays, to fit their message. it was a common practice in the early days of christianity. as i stated before, they turned the pagan celebration of the birth of the sun god into the christian celebration of the birth of the son of god. the fact that it now falls on December 25 has more to do with the restructuring of the calendar done by Pope Gregory XIII in 1582. the pagan holiday of yule actually falls on the winter equinox, which generally falls on December 21.
Origin of Christmas (http://www.origin-of-christmas.com/)

I took the inference as implying that the Christian Feast days were pagan ritual. It's usually couched that way, so I apologize for my bad assumption.

Pantheons, sun gods, moon gods, or goddess dressed in skimpy outfits didn't have anything to do with the establishment of the December 25th as Christmas. It had to do with religious scholars and theologians establishing, as best they could, the Feast day of Christmas. I'd also suggest that Yule folks, logs or equinox didn't have anything to do with it either. The point is that Christmas, as well as Easter, are uniquely Christian Feast days and paganism cannot be legitimately imprinted onto these feast days. One doesn't have anything to do with the other except maybe to share a date on the calendar.


the word easter is most likely from Ostara, also called Eostre or Eastre, (sorry, i got the spelling wrong before). no matter which way it's spelled (which depends on which land in which the goddess was worshiped and the particular dialect), she was always a goddess of spring and fertility, among other things. the rabbit and hen were seen as sacred to her, as symbols of fertility and rebirth. easter is still celebrated on the same day that the ancient, pagan ritual was observed on; the first Sunday after the first fullmoon following the spring equinox (which is why it moves so much from year to year). christians saw the holiday as a convenient day to celebrate what was first passover and then turned into a celebration of jesus' resurrection. the celebration of spring, which was seen as the rebirth of nature, seemed like the perfect day to celebrate the rebirth of christ. it was also a handy way to settle a debate that had been troubling the church for several years, when to celebrate a previously jewish holiday that was becoming increasingly more Christian.

Pagan Roots of Easter Customs: Here Comes Ol? Cottontail?. | Suite101.com (http://paganismwicca.suite101.com/article.cfm/pagan_roots_of_easter_customs)

What is the origin of Easter? - ChristianAnswers.Net (http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t020.html)

The Real Meaning of Easter (http://www.datejesus.com/sermons/easter/)

Easter, the History, Date, and Contemporary Meaning (http://www.godweb.org/easter.htm)


sorry i have more links for easter than christmas, but the information is more patchy concerning easter because it the conversion from ostara to easter was less seamless than that of yule to christmas. some of the links under easter have information on christmas as well.

And they would be all conjecture. They are all based on the speculation that the phonetic similarity creates a link. To my knowledge there is no credible link. One of your references suggested a Babylonian origin, another suggested that it was Teutonic. One said it was both. So which pagan goddess do you prefer?


once again, i don't claim that easter or christmas as pagan holidays or that early christians were worshiping pagan gods. they merely saw a way to convert the northern europeans to christianity by changing the reason behind some of their holidays. it's easier to change the meaning behind a celebration than to outlaw it. the early christians saw nothing wrong with creatively twisting a few words, tweaking a phrase, or adapting native customs if it meant that converting was easier and 'held' better.

I have a different opinion, which was more likely the case, that the Christian Holy day of Easter fell on a certain date which happens to be in the spring coinciding with thousands of pagan societies' worship of spring goddesses. Later folks such as the Paganism/Wicca (your link --- you do see the inappropriateness of the link, don't you?) with vested interests decided they would connect Christianity with paganism. What might their motif be? But, regardless of the motif, to base such theories on a phonic similarity is disingenuous.



What has any of this got to do with the OP's topic. Moderator needs to close this thread as it has drifted way too far off topic!

Why?

JoeT

There's a difference between being rude and emphatic. Such nonsense as this is just plain simple stupid (FYI, that's an emphatic statement not a rude one).

I think you were crossed the line to rude.


Ishtar is the Babylonian goddess of sex not Roman

I said "pagan" not "Roman". Read again.


What relationship would there be between Constantine and Ishtar?

Constantine was trying to make the church a cross between paganism and Christianity so that it would appeal to the pagans under his rule.


And how does Ishtar relate to the fact that the date of Easter is calculated different from that of Passover?

You apparently did not read what I said - it was all clearly explained.


The point is that your schismatic man made traditions don't change the fact that Easter,

Right - the traditions of the Constantine were schismatic, but they are not mine. Constantine stated that his intend was to separate the church from the Jews. I could and will quote excerpts if you wish to carry on.

What has any of this got to do with the OP's topic. Moderator needs to close this thread as it has drifted way too far off topic!

Agreed.

What has any of this got to do with the OP's topic. Moderator needs to close this thread as it has drifted way too far off topic!

I agree, and I apologize. I will move my post to a separate topic, where those who wish to continue the discussion can follow me.

Here's a link for anyone who wishes to follow me there.

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/pagan-roots-christian-holidays-371457.html

Joe,
I agree with you and it is part of one structured religion.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Religion and Christianity has been structured from shortly after the death of Christ.

.


Hinduism goes back about 20,000 years, and is recognised as a religion. To say that Religion has been structured since the birth of Christ ignores several Religions.

Christ was born just over 2000 years ago. You are out by a factor of ten. Or don't you recognise other religions?

It has been quite long since anyone posted a question, so here I go.

I love to share good stuff with my friends through emails, especially Christian things which I come across internet. One of my friends, deletes my email when she finds that it contains Christain material. She says that she is not going to follow a structured religion. She says her prayers to God, but not in the name of Lord Jesus. About Christianity, she says that pastors and church leaders do/had sexually expolited people so she can not be a Christian. I explained her that coming to Jesus is having a relationship with Jesus and believing in Him is not a structured religion. Yet she is pretty adamant. I remember her in my prayers for her to come to Lord Jesus. I know that only Holy Spirit can change a person.

Should I keep trying to reach her or am I wasting my time and should "dust off my sandals?".

If she will give you her ear, I say keep planting the seed whenever you can. I had someone tell me once not to ever bring up salvation or Jesus Christ to him again. In that case, I dusted my shoes but still pray for him. It is funny because every now and again HE will bring up Christianity.. in those instances I am usually careful but I always speak the truth. So I say keep on a plantin... never know how the Holy Spirit will use it!

Pushtumpa,
I think Fr Chuck was talking about the religion of Christianity and not purposely ignoring other religions.
At least that is the way I read it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

This is the Christianity area and discussion is to be on that topic,

From other posts I place Pushtumpa on the troll list myself as one just looking to pick words apart.

He would have known what was being said but perfered to complain

In addition to what Fr_chuck said, there is absolutely NO evidence that hinduism has been around some 20,000 years. (There is no evidence of ANY religious activity beyond 6500 years ago.) Even if you count it as one of the earliest religions, it is still polytheistic(many Gods) while Judaism is recognised by ALL scholars(Bible AND secular) as the first monotheistic(One God) religion.

Jeff,
Right you are.
Fred

If she will give you her ear, I say keep planting the seed whenever you can. I had someone tell me once not to ever bring up salvation or Jesus Christ to him again. In that case, I dusted my shoes but still pray for him. It is funny because every now and again HE will bring up Christianity..in those instances I am usually careful but I always speak the truth. So I say keep on a plantin....never know how the Holy Spirit will use it!

Thanks Classy for sharing your experience with me. The latest update is that she has sent me an email asking me to take her off from my email list. I would not, however, stop praying for her.

And I fully agree with you that we don't know when and how Lord Jesus would change the heart of a person and save him. Stories of Paul and the thief on the cross and many other stories in the Bible tell us about HIS plan of salvation for all people.

WOW, what a discussion, I can't believe I read all 9 pages of this...

I will throw in my opinion even though I am a little late.

Following a religion is great,
Caring for your friends is great.
Caring about what happens to them after death is great.
Caring about the way they live their life is great.

Trying to change them is not.

I get religious e-mails from time to time.
I would be offended if someone kept sending me e-mails even though I had told them that I deleted them.

It would make me feel like they did not listen to what I said or simply did not care.

This girl has expressed her feelings about the church.
She does not like it.

Leave her be...
Forward on those funny e-mails or interesting ones but leave the Christianity ones out. To me, being a non Christian, they are as annoying as those Viagra e-mails you always get.

Triund, Yes.
It is good to kepp praying for her.
Good luck and God Bless,
Peace and kindness,
Fred

ALTY,

Really? You are going to compare that to almost RAPE? Come on... don't open up the e-mail. You know I actually get so called Christian e-mail that bugs the doo doo out of me. I don't like it. I don't open it. (I don't read it. (I don't like the God loves you and if you aren't ashamed send this to 10 people) ugh ERRRR give me a break.

Having said that... if the person said.. ".leave me alone" than in MY humble opinion you should. I believe it is biblical but it is NO where near "almost rape".

classyT,
Agreed!!