How did Jesus fight the tradition and made the religion more relational?

Jesus fought religion and religious tradition, he also said the pharisees and sadducees father was the devil. That only people who were not blind could see this. So basically I would say he left the false religions to their own path and only the true believers to see the light.

Jesus was never angry with the thieves or prostitutes. His righteous anger was directed solely at the "good church folk" who "acted" pious but cared little for their fellow man. The leaders saw the people as sheep they could use and take advantage of - which they did. Jesus saw the thieves, prostitutes etc. as at least being honest about the lack of God in their life. The leaders professed to know God but did not.

itsmemaths,
Jesus opposed the traditions of men who added to the law such as no work of any kind on the Sabbath.
But the traditions of God He kept and started or added to His own such as holy baptism and the Holy Eucharist.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Really Fred?
It's recorded that Jesus never baptized anybody Though John the Baptizer and others obviously did before Jesus ministry. And I've read all through 16 versions of the bible and don't even know what "Eucharist" is.

How did Jesus fight the tradition and made the religion more relational?

Which religion are you referring to? Jesus was a Jew so are you asking if he was trying to make Judiasm more relational? As far as I'm aware, Jesus did not set out to or try to establish a new religion, that was done by his disciples after his death and alleged resurrection.

Really Fred?
It's recorded that Jesus never baptized anybody Though John the Baptizer and others obviously did before Jesus ministry.

By what is written in (Matthew 28:18 ) Jesus was given all power on earth and heaven. And Christ told His disciples in (Matthew 28:19-20) go teach and baptize. Plus Christ said teach all, to observe all, that I have commanded.

However, my faith and trust in baptism would rest in what Christ said, and how Christ was shown as the path to follow. Hearing HIS voice as sheep that follow HIM.

itsmemaths,
Jesus opposed the traditions of men who added to the law such as no work of any kind on the Sabbath.
But the traditions of God He kept and started or added to His own such as holy baptism and the Holy Eucharist.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

We are called to obtain the gospel of Jesus Christ. (2 Th 2:14) That would be in the calling of salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth that is written.

It does not mean by any man's doctrine that is corruptable. We are told to stand fast, and hold the traditions which the disciples, and apostles were taught, by reveal truth of God. Noting all as being whether by the word, or their epistle. Peter himself was said by Christ, to hold that reveal truth when Peter confirmed to Christ 3 times that he loved Christ and was told to follow as Christ himself had followed HIS Father in glory. (John 21)(Matthew 16:17)

Fred, I don't see where Christ added to baptism, because it is noted in scripture being John and Christ, both suffered it as fulfilled in righteousness. (Matthew 3:15)

As for the Holy Communion we acknowledge that Christ brought us a way through the veil. That what was once by priests alone once a year through gifts and sacrifices of blood at the altar (Hebrew 9:6-9)

Christ brought a new and living way, which HE consecrated for us. That His body takes us through the veil (Hebrews 10:20), and His blood is the blood of the New Testament that finished it(Matthew 26:28) (John 19:30)

sndbay,
I agree.
But please note that Jesus commanded his followers to go out and baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Prior to that Jews used baptism as a cleaning ritual.
So Jesus made it a sacrament by adding the authority of the triune God to it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

No it is not recorded that Jesus did not do any Baptisms. It merely does not list any he did. But no where do I remember it saying he never did.
Paul speaks of not doing many.

But in fact Jesus actually did follow many of the important church traditions. He went to the temple, taugh followed passover traditions, and since he entered the temple he would have also went though the rites of purification to be allowed to enter.

Fr_Chuck,
Very good point and the bible does tell us that Jesus went with His Disciples to where there was water and baptized, though it does not say which ones did the baptizing.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

sndbay,
I agree.
But please note that Jesus commanded his followers to go out and baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Prior to that Jews used baptism as a cleaning ritual.
So Jesus made it a sacrament by adding the authority of the triune God to it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

What I find different from what John was doing, we today are told in following, that before we are baptized, we are to confess faith in Christ Jesus as the Son of God.
This is written in Acts 8:37-38 that Philip said "If thou believest with all thine heart" thou mayest. Confession of ONE FAITH " I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. "

When you say it was a cleaning ritual, it is true that by the command of God, John went as the forerunner, baptizing in forgiveness for sin.

However today according to scripture baptism now SAVES us (REFER: 1 Peter 3:21) by the answer of a good conscience toward God. And in (REFER: Hebrews 10:22) we are told of the body being wash with pure water.

The 3 in ONE is included by each sufficient act commanded by God. Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and by the body of Christ that takes us through the veil, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus written in (REF:Hebrews 10:19)

The 3 in ONE delivers us, and we are chase virgins as Paul teaches. Paul's teaching is that he fears we can be beguiled like Eve was in the garden. Beguiled from the simiplity of Christ Jesus. (REF: 2 Cr 11:3)

chase meaning pure from every fault, immaculate
virgin meaning abstained from all uncleanness

REFER: 2 Cr 11:2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Faith set you free... walk in Christ as a child of God

One LORD One BAPTISM One FAITH

sndbay,
That was not what I was pointing out.
It is that Jesus started His own traditions.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

sndbay,
That was not what I was pointing out.
It is that Jesus started His own traditions.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred, Then where or what was Christ's own traditions? .. where in scripture did Christ start HIS own traditions?

In Faith, I believe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are ONE. Christ's walk was not separated from the Father or the Holy Spirit..

Even today I sometimes meet people that "brag" about who baptized them or what church they attend, who their preacher or priest is, or what family member is a priest or preacher as if any of that, has anything to do with the person's current relationship to God. People tend to put their trust in THINGS outide of the spiritual for whatever reason. It doesn't make it right. I believe that Jesus did NOT personally baptize for this reason and that Paul followed his example. If you or I were PERSONALLY baptized in water by Jesus, wouldn't we start to trust in that fact rather than trusting in being personally Baptized by Jesus in the Spirit? Our flesh is weak and we have a tendency to rely on the physical things we have done rather than give TRUE worship that Jesus says is "In Spirit and Truth and concentrate on ongoing relationship with Him.

sndbay,
I already mentioned that here on this thread.
Fred

sndbay,

It is that Jesus started His own traditions.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

??? Why would you call them His Own?




But the traditions of God He kept and started or added to His own such as holy baptism and the Holy Eucharist.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Truth is known by what is written.

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

John 14:10-11 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

John 1 :18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

In the bosom of the Father means in front of the body between the arms.

Even today I sometimes meet people that "brag" about who baptized them or what church they attend, who their preacher or priest is, or what family member is a priest or preacher as if any of that, has anything to do with the person's current relationship to God. People tend to put their trust in THINGS outide of the spiritual for whatever reason. It doesn't make it right. I believe that Jesus did NOT personally baptize for this reason and that Paul followed his example. If you or I were PERSONALLY baptized in water by Jesus, wouldn't we start to trust in that fact rather than trusting in being personally Baptized by Jesus in the Spirit? Our flesh is weak and we have a tendency to rely on the physical things we have done rather than give TRUE worship that Jesus says is "In Spirit and Truth and concentrate on ongoing relationship with Him.

Yes many today place themselves and others on a scale. And they show favoritism, which God would never do. People see by their own measure of scale in everything that surrounds them. Truth is there is only "ONE" above us all, and God sustains us by HIS power, and mercy. The dominance between weak and strong, allows the destruction of what the weak have to offer. The evil in the destruction of the weak for example (abortion, child abuse, ect..) . That is why those chosen to the position of authority should use causion in their decisions, and listen for their heart of love to walk in Christ.

The example you brought forward of Paul and his reason behind not doing baptism is a good one. Paul clearly did not want people to think Christ was divided. (REFER: 1 Cr 1:13) And Christ would never speak of division from the Father or the Holy Spirit.
Paul did baptize the house of Stephanas which was a Christian convert of Corinth. But Paul was thankful to God not to baptize any others because he did not want people to think they were baptized in his name. (causing division) We are to be baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Confessing our faith in Christ who is (ONE) with the Father and Holy Spirit.

The teaching of Christ is to walk in HIM, follow HIM, hear HIS voice. It is Not to follow man, and traditions of man, which have been scaled by man's will and pride of themselves.

If you follow man, you have arrived to division from Christ. Division exists between anything that is not done following the doctrine of Christ by the Word of God, and in what Christ gave testomony in doing himself. And as Christ said many will come in my name, and shall deceive .

We are foretold to watch in discernment of good and evil, and giving up all to follow HIM.

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

~in Christ

[B]Truth is known by what is written.

Right. And we are not to go beyond what is written

1 Cor 4:6
6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.
NKJV

How did Jesus fight the tradition and made the religion more relational?

Why would Christ 'fight' tradition? Do you recall God's revelation of Truth to Jacob, Abraham, and Mosses; was the truth revealed by God in Jacob's day any less true in antiquity, any less true than God's truth today? How else would the chosen people convey that truth from generation to generation but by tradition? Yet, you argue that the New Testament did away with the 'law'. Well it didn't. In fact, in order to believe this we'd need to put aside Christ's own words, words not given to the Jew (the Jew already knew the traditions of their faith) rather those words were spoken to the gentile, and not just any Gentile, but the procurator from Rome (Pontius Pilate). His entire mission on earth was wrapped around truth, He didn't just teach, He didn't just reveal, He gave “testimony to the truth”. (Cf. John 18:37)

Christ's faith affirmed God's Truth; His authority attests to the validity of the Truth giving hope; and in Love He submitted to the Truth. And He acclaimed the God of Jacob, the God of Abraham, and the God of Mosses. A knowledge gained by the tradition of the faith of His people. We know this without a showdown of doubt Christ said, “Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.” (Matt 5: 17). And to think some people would replace the entirety of faith with a book alone, instead of Scripture and Tradition.

JoeT


p.s. God is truth. You cannot replace God or Truth with a book alone.

Why would Christ 'fight' tradition?

Because the tradition of man does not compare to the word of God.


Do you recall God's revelation of Truth to Jacob, Abraham, and Mosses; was the truth revealed by God in Jacob's day any less true in antiquity, any less true than God's truth today? How else would the chosen people convey that truth from generation to generation but by tradition?

And the oral tradition was carefully passed down from generation to generation (not corrupted by additions of men) until such time as it was written down. Not - it was written down. Just as we are told that the revelation in the NT was written down.

Because the tradition of man does not compare to the word of God.



And the oral tradition was carefully passed down from generation to generation (not corrupted by additions of men) until such time as it was written down. Not - it was written down. Just as we are told that the revelation in the NT was written down.



And when did Christ turn on Mosses and say, "And Mosses has no book".

And when did Christ turn on Mosses and say, "And Mosses has no book".

Huh?? English translation please? Do you have a problem with Jesus? Please clarify.

Joe,
You are right.
Well said.
Fred

Finally some dialouge I can relate to. From what I understand we can't please GOD with tradition. We can get caught up in the way things have been done and not step out side the box. GOD is so large and amazing we can't begin to understand how much so. I think tradition keeps you in the box and GOD wants us to step out side the box and not focus so much on the rules but building a relationship with him to become more like him. Bottom line the things that christ asked us to keep in remembrance were thing to help the generations to come remember the great things god has done in the past so their faith would be build up. Baptism is just symbolic to the cleansing and rebirth of your new life in christ. Pass over is remembering god passing over the Israelites homes in egypt. And communion is symbolic to christs body, and blood and him giving it for us. Jesus broke a lot of traditions.

flayvur,
So you believe, but I don't.
I believe that Jesus made baptism a sacrament.
A sacrament is something that has been set for a special purpose.
Long ago it cleaned away sins for the Jews and a Christian Baptism does indeed remove sins if done according to how Jesus instructed.
Peace and kidness,
Fred

flayvur,
So you believe, but I don't.
I believe that Jesus made baptism a sacrament.
A sacrament is something that has been set for a special purpose.
Long ago it cleaned away sins for the Jews and a Christian Baptism does indeed remove sins if done according to how Jesus instructed.
Peace and kidness,
Fred

Fred,

Even for the Jews it was said to be symbolic.

Heb 9:9-10
9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience-- 10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.
NKJV

The term "various washings" refers to the Jewish mikveh and the word here in Greek is baptismos, elsewhere translated as baptism.

Further, scripture is clear that it is believing in Jesus that saves, and it is the blood on the cross that washed our sins, not water.

Rev 1:4-6
5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,
NKJV

Paul said in Romans that the water of baptism was symbolic.

Rom 6:4-7
4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
NKJV

Notice the word "likeness"? It means a comparison, or a symbolism.

I'm totally not disagreeing with any thing that's being said. I f there's any questions within you I would direct you fred or arcura to ask the holy spirit to reveal it to you. I myself am not questioning you. I'm simply stating what has been revealed to me.

Tj3,
Believe as you wish.
I will believe as I do.
OK?
Fred

Tj3,
Believe as you wish.
I will believe as I do.
OK?
Fred

Fred,

You are always welcome to believe as you wish, and no doubt you will, but that will not stop me from posting what scripture has to say on this or any other topic.

Tom

From what I understand we can't please GOD with tradition. Mosses did, didn't he? -- you might recall 'The Law of Mosses'


We can get caught up in the way things have been done and not step outside the box. GOD is so large and amazing we can't begin to understand how much so. I think tradition keeps you in the box and GOD wants us to step outside the box and not focus so much on the rules but building a relationship with him to become more like him.

But, are you suggesting that you can do one up on God with the 'thinking out of the box'?


Bottom line the things that Christ asked us to keep in remembrance were thing to help the generations to come remember the great things god has done in the past so their faith would be build up.

As we keep the daily tradition of communion, “He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life” (John 6:55)


Baptism is just symbolic to the cleansing and rebirth of your new life in Christ.

Baptism is an absolute necessity to enter into the Kingdom of God. It is the real remission of actual and original sin and removes temporal punishment accrued for sin. Baptism infuses a real and permanent supernatural gift of grace and virtue. It confers special graces of an inheritance of God's promises for mercy. Did Christ not say, “unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God”? (John 3)


Passover is remembering god passing over the Israelites homes in Egypt and communion is symbolic to Christ's body, and blood and him giving it for us. Jesus broke a lot of traditions.

Christ himself celebrated Passover in the tradition of the Jewish faith. “Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.” (Matt 5: 17).

JoeT

I think the answear to the OP's question is.. ''you have turned the house of my Father into a house of thieves''.
Selling birds and animals outside the Temple was a manmade tradition that man invented to gain profit.
Man used the Word of God(sacrifises), for his own benefit(gain money). That's tradition!
Also man used the Word of God(stoning whores and adulteres) for their benefit(self justification).That's tradition!
So many things that man still does , manipulating God's Word for his own benefit... that's Tradition!
Heb 9:9-10 is not about baptism but about sacrifise.The sacrifise of animals was symbolic but of course those people could not understand that because they simply were ''newborns'' since Jesus Christ was not revealed yet.
Baptism is something that He Himself instructed His desciples to do and of course there are so many symbolisms in it but that does not mean that we can say that it is just symbolic and not be baptized.Also participating in the Lord's Body by bread and wine is symbolic to eat His flesh and drink His blood.This was also insrtucted by Him!
Everything we do is symbolic, but that does not mean that we could rest in a symbolism.That would be tradition!

And the oral tradition was carefully passed down from generation to generation (not corrupted by additions of men) until such time as it was written down. Not - it was written down. Just as we are told that the revelation in the NT was written down.

The Tradition of the Church is that Tradition given it b Christ and the Holy Sperit. No man can corrupt it.

Tradition was passed down from generation to generation so that man could be made adopted sons of God. New Testament Scripture was later developed as a special form of Roman Catholic Tradition.



JoeT

Mosses did, didn’t he?

Did he? No references, I see.


As we keep the daily tradition of communion, “He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life” (John 6:55)

As always, reading in context is important. To stop there without reading the full context would not be using sound Biblical exegesis, so lets continue on.

John 6:60-64
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
NKJV

Now Jesus now says that the flesh profits nothing. This appears contrary to verses 53-4 that state that we need to eat his flesh and drink his blood, and if we do, we receive eternal life, but then Jesus clarifies by stating that Jesus says that the words are the spirit and the life. This is why it is important to continue on and read the full context because Jesus has just struck to the very heart of the doctrine of transubstantiation by saying that the flesh does not profit us at all. Rather He says, that the life comes from the spirit, not the flesh and it is the words that bring the spirit.

Words = spirit = life, Flesh does not profit anything.

This is in harmony with what Jesus said in Matthew chapter 4:

Matt 4:3-4
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
KJV

It is God's word that brings life and the spirit, not eating the flesh. Therefore, even if the bread were changed to flesh, there would be no benefit from eating it. Now, remember earlier in this document, it was noted that human flesh and blood do perish and yet the bread that Jesus offered did not perish? Here is the explanation. Jesus was not speaking of bread, or of blood or of flesh but was speaking of the words of God which bring life. God word and the life which comes from God's word (the Gospel) are eternal. Bread, flesh and blood are perishable, but God's word and salvation which comes from receiving the gospel are eternal.

64a But there are some of you who do not believe.

Some do not believe that the flesh profits nothing rather and thus do not believe that it is His words that give the spirit and life. If they do not believe that the flesh profits nothing, then they must believe that it is the flesh rather than His words that He is speaking about.

64b For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

And some as a result, they will betray him.


Baptism is an absolute necessity to enter into the Kingdom of God.

Then you are telling us that the thief on the cross and every saint in the OT went to hell?


Did Christ not say, “unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God”? (John 3)

Let's see that in context:

John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NKJV

Note that he equates the water with the flesh, being born in the flesh, and being born again with being born in the spirit. This is not speaking about water baptism. Different topic. Jesus here is using the Jewish figure of speech known as parallelism, equating the two items mentioned first with the same two mentioned the second time, respectively. Thus:

Water = flesh
Spirit = Spirit.

The Tradition of the Church is that Tradition given it b Christ and the Holy Sperit. No man can corrupt it.

The tradition given to the church in the 1st century was all written down so that man could not corrupt it.


New Testament Scripture was later developed as a special form of Roman Catholic Tradition.


Let's not start that again. As you know that denomination started centuries later than the NT was written down. For it to have been a denominational tradition, it would have to have been written down after the 4th century, and it would not be the word of God but a tradition of men.

Tj3,
SO you still insist on a false idea that The Church did not become The Church until centuries later.
History and Scripture prove that to be false.
When are you going to start believing in reality?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Selling birds and animals outside the Temple was a manmade tradition that man invented to gain profit. Man used the Word of God (sacrifices), for his own benefit (gain money). That's tradition! Also man used the Word of God (stoning whores and adulterers) for their benefit (self justification).That's tradition! So many things that man still does, manipulating God's Word for his own benefit...that's Tradition!

Yeah it's called sin. Just because there is unpleasant gritty sand on the beach doesn't mean you deny the existence of a place where the land meets the ocean.



Heb 9:9-10 is not about baptism but about sacrifice. The sacrifice of animals was symbolic but of course those people could not understand that because they simply were ''newborns'' since Jesus Christ was not revealed yet.

Its true sacrificed gifts could never atone for sin. Nor by the eating of certain foods or drinking certain drinks can satisfy the conscience. And carnal ordinances requiring various washings can never blot away sin. However, touching of the dead requires special purification with water, so too the touching of faith without works (dead faith) outlined verse 13 & 14 is to become unclean. (Cf. James 2:17). Thus, how can one serve a living God with a dead fait? How then do you become holy without the Sacramental Traditions taught by the Church? What does it profit you to memorize every word of in the bible any you still can't wash the naked sin from your brother. It's the mediator's New Testament who traded his life for redemption, a promise of eternal inheritance as adopted sons of God. And until you eat of the body of Christ and drink of the blood of Christ will you have life (John 6:54). Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. And in this spilt blood we find the fulfillment of the Old Testament and the ratification of the New Testament. Christ has affirmed our redemption in the waters of baptism and the blood of redemption.

JoeT

the tradition given to the church in the 1st century was all written down so that man could not corrupt it.

And in which of the 72 books of the bible does it say that it was written down "so that man couuld not corrupt it". And which of the 72 books of the bible did Christ say, "and so it was said, so let it be written"? I don't remember that part.



Let's not start that again. As you know that denomination started centuries later than the NT was written down. For it to have been a denominational tradition, it would have to have been written down after the 4th century, and it would not be the word of God but a tradition of men.[/QUOTE]


I know that the Catholic Church was born when Christ said, "Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church," (Matt 15:17-18)

In english, doesn't Christ say I WILL and UPON THIS ROCK and BUILD MY CHURCH?

JoeT

John 6:60-64
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
NKJV
.

Boy, John 6 really irks you. Why don't you remove it from the bible along with James?

What is it about, "eat this, this is my body" and "drink this, this is my blood" that you don't under stand. (Cf. Matt 26:26-27)

JoeT

[QUOTE=JoeT777;1813531]Yeah it’s called sin. Just because there is unpleasant gritty sand on the beach doesn’t mean you deny the existence of a place where the land meets the ocean.QUOTE]

I did not say that tradition is out of the question.All I said is that tradition that is not in agreement with the Word should not be taken as God's will! Jesus said that he who is not against us is with us.
It takes two witnesses to testify the word so that the word becomes certain.Tradition should be backed up somehow by the Word, I think it is clear that every word that is against the Word somehow, is not God's!
Again I am not saying that we should forget everything else and just focus and study the Bible, but I am saying examine every word, every tradition if it is God's or not!

1 Cr 10:1-2-3-4 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

The importance of the scripture offered in reference, is for several reasons. #1 we have to recognized who were all were baptized. #2 we can recognized what was called spiritual meat, and #3 we can recognized spiritual drink. Then #4 we can recognize that spiritual Rock is Christ.
***********************************

Question your thoughts: How can we answer the call to salvation without trust in the Three in "ONE"...
Eph 4:4-5-6 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Don't think for a minute you can raise as Christ raised without being Baptism in Christ, buried and dead to this world, and able to be adopted as a child of God. Division of the three would be against what is writtten.
*******************************

Question your thoughts: How can we drink of the spiritual blood that is Christ?
John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

1 Cr 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

The spiritual drink that we are to remember is the blood of Christ, drinking of the new testament.
*************************************

Question your thoughts: How can we eat of the spiritual bread of life, not like the manna that feeds the hungry flesh?

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

THE WORD MADE FLESH!

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

John 6:57-58 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Recognize the spiritual Rock, and spiritual meat that followed Moses. Scripture tells us the same Christ, the Word that was made flesh and dwelled with us followed Moses. They too ate and drank of the spiritual Rock, and too they were baptized. Do not separate or divide One Lord, One Baptism, One Faith in "ONE GOD"

~in Christ

Tj3,
SO you still insist on a false idea that The Church did not become The Church until centuries later.

No, The Church was created by Christ. The Roman Catholic Denomination did not exist until centuries later.

Please do not misrepresent what I said.

And in which of the 72 books of the bible does it say that it was written down "so that man couuld not corrupt it".

The Bible only has 66 books. There are several places where we are told not to corrupt the word of God (Prov 30:5-6, Rev 22:18 being two), and 1 Cor 4:6 tells us not to go beyond what is written.


And which of the 72 books of the bible did Christ say, "and so it was said, so let it be written"? I don't remember that part.

Stick with me, you'll learn a lot! :)


I know that the Catholic Church was born when Christ said, "Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church," (Matt 15:17-18)

In english, doesn't Christ say I WILL and UPON THIS ROCK and BUILD MY CHURCH?

Anyone reading it clearly in English or in the original Greek will see that the Rock (which throughout scripture refers to God) is the declaration that Peter made:

Matt 16:15-18
15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
NKJV

Peter is called a stone and this declaration is the Rock, because it is about Christ and Christ in the Rock. Paul confirms it when he sayud that the church cannot have a foundation other than Christ:

1 Cor 3:10-12
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
NKJV

So any church with a man as it's foundation is not the Church that Christ built. Lastly, Christ built a body of believers as the church, not a manmade denomination.

Boy, John 6 really irks you. Why don't you remove it from the bible along with James?

John 6 does not irk me - why should it?

What does irk me is people taking a verse out of context to make it say the opposite of what it actually says.

Like this one:


What is it about, "eat this, this is my body" and "drink this, this is my blood" that you don't under stand. (Cf. Matt 26:26-27)

In context it reads:

Matt 26:26-30
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, "Take, eat; this is My body." 27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 29 But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom." 30 And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.
NKJV

Well, here since the sacrifice on the cross had not yet occurred, and since Jesus was sitting there in His whole body, it was clear that this was not the blood shed on the cross, and then in the next verse, Jesus says that it is the fruit of the vine, which is wine.

Why some folk insist on taking verses out of context, I don't know.

Question your thoughts[/B]: How can we answer the call to salvation without trust in the Three in "ONE"...
Eph 4:4-5-6 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Don't think for a minute you can raise as Christ raised without being Baptism in Christ, buried and dead to this world, and able to be adopted as a child of God. Division of the three would be against what is writtten.

The question is, what is the "One Baptism" which is essential? The baptism of the Holy Spirit which is given to all who believe, whether they are baptized in water or not? Or water?

I did not say that tradition is out of the question.All I said is that tradition that is not in agreement with the Word should not be taken as God's will! Jesus said that he who is not against us is with us.
It takes two witnesses to testify the word so that the word becomes certain.Tradition should be backed up somehow by the Word, I think it is clear that every word that is against the Word somehow, is not God's!
Again I am not saying that we should forget everything else and just focus and study the Bible, but I am saying examine every word, every tradition if it is God's or not!


I agree, and we can see many traditions today that have been brought forth by man, that are indeed against what is written. Each holiday for example has paganism orgin.
The celebration of the feast of Passover.. Christ is our Passover, the paschal lamb..

Man's tradition has brought this celebration to us as their oral tradition of Easter.. (orgin as a paganism feast)

(1 Cr 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.)

Unleaved bread would be Christ, the bread of life without sin and corruption.


Jesus warned of the leaven in man's doctrine. That which can raise up being in corruption.

Matthew 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
Matthew 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

The first church that began the division in what was the Word of God. Do the traditions of man cause division in religions, and faith today?

How many churches today baptize as written in the Word that is the flesh of Christ?The inspired Word of the Holy Spirit. The Word that is the Spiritual Truth of God?

The question is, what is the "One Baptism" which is essential? The baptism of the Holy Spirit which is given to all who believe, whether they are baptized in water or not? or water?

Christ commanded that his disciples baptize.. Christ fulfilled what was required in following HIM. Baptism to follow, and be raised as He was raised...

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

It was water that Christ was baptized in.. It was the red sea that Mose and his people passed through... (Hebrew 10:22) speaks of pure water....

Christ commanded that his disciples baptize.. Christ fulfilled what was required in following HIM. Baptism to follow, and be raised as He was raised...

Yep, we are to be baptized in water. There are many other things that we are commanded to do - are you saying that everything we are commanded to do is essential for salvation? If so then I trust that you know that would mean that we would all be destined for hell since no one has obeyed the law perfectly.

The fact is that we are told that it is essential to believe in Jesus to be saved. Nowhere are we told that water baptism is essential to be saved, and in fact we have a case in Acts 10 where we see people saved before water baptism.

Peter is called a stone and this declaration is the Rock, because it is about Christ and Christ in the Rock. Paul confirms it when he sayud that the church cannot have a foundation other than Christ:


Tom, there are a few details that are obvious to what was said concerning the rock that Christ mentioned. If you look up Peter's name you can see that it means a rock or a stone. The meaning of a name is given at birth by hertiage from the family. Peter would be expected to live according to that name. Certainly more respected then Jazeb which means sorrow, and was named that because of his mother's sorrow. However a stone or rock is solid and metaph. of a soul hard and unyeilding...

The truth is, that Christ is the Rock of salvation, and the spiritual Rock we stand upon stedfast. Christ is the Rock of glory..


This is the obvious proof
It is written and spoken by Christ concerning Peter. (John 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.)

Then anyone can read (1 Corinthians 3:21-22-23) to hear scripture say that no man is to glory in man.. it then names such men not to glory in ..

1 Cr 3:21-23 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours; Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.


The pride of satan's work is known by God

This was written because For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
3:19-20 KJV

`in Christ

Tom, there are a few details that are obvious to what was said concerning the rock that Christ mentioned. If you look up Peter's name you can see that it means a rock or a stone.

Actually it means a piece of a rock or a stone - and a piece chipped off a rock is a stone.


The truth is, that Christ is the Rock of salvation, and the spiritual Rock we stand upon stedfast. Christ is the Rock of glory..

Absolutely right.

Yep, we are to be baptized in water. There are many other things that we are commanded to do - are you saying that everything we are commanded to do is essential for salvation? If so then I trust that you know that would mean that we would all be destined for hell since no one has obeyed the law perfectly.

The fact is that we are told that it is essential to believe in Jesus to be saved. Nowhere are we told that water baptism is essential to be saved, and in fact we have a case in Acts 10 where we see people saved before water baptism.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

***************

New creature has strength in Christ Jesus :
2 Cor. 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Christ dwells within and strength us to avail over satan.
Gal. 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.


The body of new creature, divine nature (refer:2 Pet. 1:4) born of the spirit will go to the right side of the boat... (my own metaph speaking)

1 John 2:5-6 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

~in Christ

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

I snipped the rest for brevity... none of those passages said that baptism in water is essential for salvation.

You guys are hilarious. For nearly 2,000 years ‘Peter’ meant ‘rock’. It meant ‘rock’ from when Christ spoke it till…well, until Scriptures ran into you two wondrous scholars. And now the two of you proclaim ‘Peter’ to be a stone, a pebble, a chip of sandstone, what marvels of scholastic crawfish’en can we expect next? And if Peter were a pebble, then wouldn’t that make it all the more miraculous that Christ established his Universal Kingdom on a small insignificant pebble? Guys, just in case you haven’t heard, this pebble business has been debunked years ago by real scholars who understand the Greek and Aramaic of the day.

Certain beliefs and doctrines were handed to us by the Apostles and their successors. This we call Tradition. That Tradition was memorialized in sacred writings, a compendium of God’s revelation to mankind in 72 books. Authenticated teachings of Christ were bequeathed to posterity by the Mystical Body of Christ, i.e. the Roman Catholic Church. This is a continuation of God’s Divine laws held in the Tradition of Abram and Mosses; wherein Christ lived and fulfilled its tenets and prophecies.

JoeT

You guys are hilarious. For nearly 2,000 years 'Peter' meant 'rock'.

Maybe in your circles (though I am not sure how you make the 2000 year claim - since scripture itself says that the meaning is "stone")

John 1:42
42 And he brought him to Jesus. Now when Jesus looked at him, He said, "You are Simon the son of Jonah. You shall be called Cephas" (which is translated, A Stone).
NKJV


Certain beliefs and doctrines were handed to us by the Apostles and their successors. This we call Tradition. That Tradition was memorialized in sacred writings, a compendium of God's revelation to mankind in 72 books. Authenticated teachings of Christ were bequeathed to posterity by the Mystical Body of Christ, i.e. the Roman Catholic Church. This is a continuation of God's Divine laws held in the Tradition of Abram and Mosses; wherein Christ lived and fulfilled its tenets and prophecies.

The claim that your denominational traditions came from the Apostles is, in and of itself, a denominational traditional. Since the denomination came centuries later, it is a creation of men, and the traditions are creations of men.

As for the 6 books added by your denomination, many contradict scripture, and at least one denies divine inspiration.

none of those passages said that baptism in water is essential for salvation.

No they don't but each says I follow in Christ, doing the Will of God. God sustains us, and guides us, we are to listen to hear HIS voice.

Remember what was said to Job?


Job 37:14 Hearken unto this, O Job: stand still, and consider the wondrous works of God.
Job 37:15-16 Dost thou know when God disposed them, and caused the light of his cloud to shine? Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge?
Job 37:21 And now men see not the bright light which is in the clouds: but the wind passeth, and cleanseth them

Do we fully understand all that God commands of us? Did the people understand their salvation washed over them in the water of the red sea, and baptized them?
(Exd 14:13 And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them again no more for ever.)

In doing the will of God we exalt His glory and praise. The water in baptism is like the well of salvation in newness of life. God is the well of our salvation in which we draw from. Baptism is what holds us together in good conscience with God and the HIS fire (Luke 12:50)

~in Christ

No they don't but each says I follow in Christ, doing the Will of God. God sustains us, and guides us, we are to listen to hear HIS voice.

Agreed. Even though baptism is not essential for salvation, it is something that all believers should do as an act of obedience and a testimony of what Christ has done in their lives.


In doing the will of God we exalt His glory and praise. The water in baptism is like the well of salvation in newness of life. God is the well of our salvation in which we draw from. Baptism is what holds us together in good conscience with God and the HIS fire (Luke 12:50)

I disagree. It is the word of God and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that unifies believers. Not water.

And Jesus came into the quarters of Cæsarea Philippi: and he asked his disciples, saying: Whom do men say that the Son of man is? But they said: Some John the Baptist, and other some Elias, and others Jeremiah, or one of the prophets. Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am? Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. (Matt 16)

Setting the scene; Caesarea Phillippi is in the valley of Lebanon below Mount Hermon as mentioned in Josh 11:17 or Baal Hemon as mentioned in Judg 3:3. Of particular interest is a land feature of a massive rock face. One of the tributaries for the Jordan River flows through the area. The area was liberated by the Maccabean revolt in 167 B.C. In 4 B.C. one of Herod the Great s three sons, Philip, built the Roman Grecian of Caesarea Philippi to honor the Roman emperor. You can imagine Jesus with this huge rock wall as a backdrop, asking twice (not once, but twice), “Whom to they say that I am?” No other disciples could give the answer but Simon. Simon confessed Jesus as being both the Messiah and the “Son of the Living God.” God had revealed to Simon what no other man on earth knew; Christ was the Second Person of the One Devine God.

Simon is used in English, French, Scandinavian, German, Hungarian, Slovene, Biblical Pronounced: SIE-mən (English), see-MAWN (French), ZEE-mawn (German) [key] From the Greek form of the Hebrew name שִׁמְעוֹן (Shim'on) which meant "he has heard". This was the name of several biblical characters, including the man who carried the cross for Jesus. However, the most important person of this name in the New Testament was the apostle Simon, also known as Peter (a name given to him by Jesus). Because of him, this name has been common in the Christian world. In England it was popular during the Middle Ages, though it became rarer after the Protestant Reformation. Behind the Name: Meaning, Origin and History of the Name Simon (http://www.behindthename.com/name/simon)

And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

There is a significance to the number of times “blessed art thou” is used in the New Testament. It's used only three times, twice in Luke 1: 42 And she cried out with a loud voice and said: Blessed art thou among women ...And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be; and once here in Matthew 16:17. It’s only used once by Jesus. (this holds true in the NKJV also) It no little significance that like the blessing bestowed Mary, God seats Peter in a special Chair for our salvation; the first of 266 whose “successor’s gives judgment,” St. Peter, St. Linus, St. Anacletus, St. Clement I, St. Alexander I, St. Sixtus I, St. Telesphorus, St. Hyginus… Benedict XVI.

Are we to assume that Peter didn’t know of this? Are we to assume that this blessing made to Mary, the “handmaid” of God, would not in the same sense make Peter, the primary servant of Christ? And what significance are we to make of this blessing that came out of Christ’s own mouth? That this was just some utterance, a use of metaphors, a courteous remark? Would it not be safe to assume that who Christ blesses stays blessed? How does our eye pass so freely across the words “blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona” without stopping to wonder at the significance that's found nowhere else in the New Testament? Peter is the only one in history blessed by Christ himself? The Catholic Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, we share that blessing. Peter was our first Vicar. By making ourselves “servants” of the Church, we in turn make ourselves, subjects of the Church whose head is the vicar (earthly representative) of Christ; and as such sharing in that one and only blessing uttered by Christ.

Because this was revealed to Peter by God, Christ calsl Peter a rock and on this Rock Christ built His church; hell won’t prevail against it, not even TJ.

And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

The “keys” are the keys to the kingdom of heaven, similar to the “keys” mentioned in Isaiah 22. With the transfer of the keys, one to another, power and authority is also transferred; Christ gives Peter the supreme authority over the Church and to bind and loose, both in heaven and on earth.

“In regard to the Petros Kepha argument made by some, the play of words involved in naming Simon “Rock” is as clear in Aramaic as in English, if we use the literal translation “Rock” for the Aramaic Kepha rather than “Peter” which is derived from the Greek Petros. In Greek the noun for rock is feminine. Therefore it is unsuitable for a man’s name, and Peter is named Petros while the precise word for rock is petra, making the meaning a little less clear. But Christ’s words to Peter were spoken in Aramaic and first recorded in Armaic in Matthew’s Gospel; furthermore, we know that Peter was later often called Kepha or Cephas as well as Petros.” “Warren H. Carroll, A History of Christendom Vol 1, 1985, pg 349 footnote 135.


Insofar as I’m able to discern, based on the knowledge of those fluent in Greek and Latin, the differences between the KJV and the Douay-Rheims are not major. Only a few verses in the KJV give a different understanding. My reason for mentioning the Scriptural differences, as elsewhere in my responses, of cases referring to Christ as a Rock is related to his strength. Furthermore, when compared with a Rock it referrers to Christ’s founding of doctrinal precepts; as it where knowledge pouring forth baptismal waters from Christ’s strength refreshing the people of Israel, e.g. Exodus 17:5 And the Lord said to Moses: Go before the people, and take with thee of the ancients of Israel: and take in thy hand the rod wherewith thou didst strike the river, and go. 6 Behold I will stand there before thee, upon the rock Horeb, and thou shalt strike the rock, and water shall come out of it that the people may drink. This doctrinal foundation is shown in 1 Cor 3:11-12 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. NKJV

The Catholic Church has always understood the Scripture to give Primacy to Peter. This was illustrated in a letter written by Pope Clement I (third in succession to Peter and had personally known Peter) to the Corinthians (circa) 95 AD claiming authority over Corinth. St. Irenaeus tells the second hand account from St. Polycarp where John was heard to say “the faithful wo are everywhere must agree with this Church (Rome) because of its more important principality.” During the Councils and Synods surrounding the early heresies the Popes decision settled the matter. This is illustrated in 431 AD. Where the Bishops responded to Pope Celestine’s decision, “He [Peter] lives even to this time, and always in his successor’s gives judgment.”

We Catholics find that "This is the sole Church of Christ which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic and apostolic, which our Savior, after his resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care (Jn. 21:17), commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it (cf. Matt. 28:18, etc.), and which he raised up for all ages as "the pillar and mainstay of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15). This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him. Nevertheless, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside its visible confines. Since these are gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, they are forces impelling towards Catholic unity." (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Genitum, 8)

Like Sndbay I also think there is a significance in names. Seeing that Simon has the Hebrew meaning, “he has heard” with the surname meaning “dove”, which in most cultures nuances of peace, Matthew 16:17 takes a special significance. Christ calls the son of peace who has heard the son of the living God a rock. Peter is made the living foundation (or cornerstone if you prefer that metaphor) of the Church. Even the location can’t be discounted; Caesarea Philippi is a region that has a large rock outcrop that forms a cliff. Christ’s intent is clear and his words have faithfully survived in His Bride for 2,000 years.

But, where do you think “Protestantism” came from? Where did each of the 30,000 different Christian Denominations get their Scriptures, each insisting it has the one and only one authoritative interpretation? How do they recon Christ’s words, “That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. ” (Cf. John 17). How then do you suppose those 30,000 interpret this, “I am the bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the desert: and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven: that if any man eat of it, he may not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven.” (Cf. John 6). How then would you suggest that those 30,000 different Churches are One Church as Christ prayed “that they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me.” (John 17:20)

It’s not just a little significant that the didactic narrative of Matthew 16:5 is a prelude; “And when his disciples were come over the water, they had forgotten to take bread. Who said to them: Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees. (Matt 16:5). Christ reminds them of the two substances that give life, the waters of baptism and the bread of life (Cf. John 6:48); likewise crossing over these waters leads to leavened faith.


JoeT

It is of little value to go through everything in this detail, but I will add a few comments



In England it was popular during the Middle Ages, though it became rarer after the Protestant Reformation.

If you think that Peter is an uncommon or less common name today, where are you living? Your source of this information is inaccurate at best.


It no little significance that like the blessing bestowed Mary, God seats Peter in a special Chair for our salvation;

Really? Where is this "special chair" mentioned in scripture?


Peter was our first Vicar.

Where is this in scripture?



By making ourselves “servants” of the Church, we in turn make ourselves, subjects of the Church whose head is the vicar (earthly representative) of Christ; and as such sharing in that one and only blessing uttered by Christ.

Vicar means substitute. Peter, according to this tradition (note: not scripture, but tradition) is a substitute for Christ.



Because this was revealed to Peter by God, Christ calsl Peter a rock and on this Rock Christ built His church; hell won't prevail against it, not even TJ.

Since scripture itself tells us that Peter was a stone, and Christ was the rock, and Paul says that Christ is the only true foundation of the church, this claim is false. Jesus did not found a denomination.


The “keys” are the keys to the kingdom of heaven, similar to the “keys” mentioned in Isaiah 22. With the transfer of the keys, one to another, power and authority is also transferred; Christ gives Peter the supreme authority over the Church and to bind and loose, both in heaven and on earth.

Jesus still has the keys in the book of Revelation. Those are not the keys given to Peter, nor did He give keys specifically to Peter.


The Catholic Church has always understood the Scripture to give Primacy to Peter.

Exactly - a Roman Catholic denominational teaching, not scriptural.


But, where do you think “Protestantism” came from? Where did each of the 30,000 different Christian Denominations get their Scriptures, each insisting it has the one and only one authoritative interpretation?

I am not a protestant, but I can say from my knowledge and research into various protestant denominations that, although some are like the Roman catholic church in that they claim they alone have the only right interpretation, that is certainly not the case with most, nor is it true of most other non-Catholic churches whether they are protestant or not.

I find it sad that there are those who engage in denominationalism, who say that their denomination is the only right one. Paul spoke against that quite directly, because even back in the first century, there were those who claimed that the were under one or another of the Apostles (and yes, Peter was one mentioned specifically by Paul)

1 Cor 1:11-14
11 For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe's household, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ." 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
NKJV

There is nothing wrong with denominations, but when the denomination (any denomination) cease to be just a tool for us to use to evangelize and to encourage fellowship amongst believers, and changes to become the master, then we have a problem.

I find it sad that there are those who engage in denominationalism, who say that their denomination is the only right one. Paul spoke against that quite directly, because even back in the first century, there were those who claimed that the were under one or another of the Apostles (and yes, Peter was one mentioned specifically by Paul)

1 Cor 1:11-14
11 For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe's household, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ." 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
NKJV

There is nothing wrong with denominations, but when the denomination (any denomination) cease to be just a tool for us to use to evangelize and to encourage fellowship amongst believers, and changes to become the master, then we have a problem.

That's correct, there is but one Church, the church you know as Roman Catholic Church, i.e. the Church of Jesus Christ. Christ didn't make subdivisions (denominations) of His Church.

JoeT

That's correct, there is but one Church, the church you know as Roman Catholic Church, i.e. the Church of Jesus Christ. Christ didn't make subdivisions (denominations) of His Church.


Christ did not make subdivisions of His Church - right but what you seem to miss is that Christ's church is NOT a denomination, not Roman catholic, not Lutheran, not Baptist, though it is possible for members of Christ's body to be in any of the above.

Claiming that your denomination alone is right is a direct contradiction of God's word.

Joe and arcura, the same thing adam7gur has said that's what I was basically saying, but maybe didn't explain it clear enough. What good does tradition do when your not loving your fellow man or woman. The story of the clergyman who saw his neighbor laying on the ground and kept walking by because I guess he was going to the synagogue never stopped to help. Then a man passing by stopped, took him to a place like a hotel paid for him to stay there and went back to check on him showed more god in him than the clergy man walking by. It's good to know the tradition's and keep them but without treating people right I don't think it means a hill of bean's. LOVE AND PEACE TO ALL ON THIS SITE.l

Joe and Adam,
I agree with you both.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Yeah it’s called sin. Just because there is unpleasant gritty sand on the beach doesn’t mean you deny the existence of a place where the land meets the ocean.

I did not say that tradition is out of the question. All I said is that tradition that is not in agreement with the Word should not be taken as God's will! Jesus said that he who is not against us is with us.
It takes two witnesses to testify the word so that the word becomes certain. Tradition should be backed up somehow by the Word, I think it is clear that every word that is against the Word somehow, is not God's!
Again I am not saying that we should forget everything else and just focus and study the Bible, but I am saying examine every word, every tradition if it is God's or not!

Adam:

You’ve brought forward some good points.

The ‘Word’, Holy Scripture, has a special relation with Tradition. Scripture and Tradition are bound together forming a synergistic accord of one fountainhead of Divine Truth. A truth that rejoices in God’s grace and teaches the heart wisdom (Cf. Matt 28:20 & cf. Col 3:16). Sacred Scripture is God’s revelation to man inspired through the lives of the authors. Tradition authoritatively telegraphs the good news with the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit, preserving, expounding and teaching. They cannot be separated. Scripture without Tradition is merely another book whose author is but another human with a human’s propensity for failure. Tradition without Scripture is Truth without discipline, a subjective truth, an ever changing truth relative to the perspective of the listener; an oxymoron considering truth is immutable. To focus only on scripture is to ignore life, to focus on the love for other is blessed, but to LIVE God’s truth as taught by the Magisterium of the Church is holy, becoming an adopted son of God.

JoeT

Adam:

You’ve brought forward some good points.

The ‘Word’, Holy Scripture, has a special relation with Tradition. Scripture and Tradition are bound together forming a synergistic accord of one fountainhead of Divine Truth. A truth that rejoices in God’s grace and teaches the heart wisdom (Cf. Matt 28:20 & cf. Col 3:16). Sacred Scripture is God’s revelation to man inspired through the lives of the authors.

All God inspired tradition has been written down.

Tj3,
Yes you are right it has been written down in several different places.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

All God inspired tradition has been written down.

There are things that God showed me, even told me and many of those things I have written down.What I wrote is not Scripture but me passing these things to others ,that would make those things a tradition!
I am sure that this is the kind of tradition that is mentioned in Scripture to keep and follow along with Scripture!

There are things that God showed me, even told me and many of those things I have written down.What I wrote is not Scripture but me passing these things to others ,that would make those things a tradition!
I am sure that this is the kind of tradition that is mentioned in Scripture to keep and follow along with Scripture!

As it was with Paul and the Bereans, any revelations are to be tested by seeing if they are in concert with scripture - scripture is the standard.

What you write down is not scripture, and anything that you do not write down is not equal to or an addition to scripture either.

Christ didn't make subdivisions (denominations) of His Church.
JoeT

We have to recognize that Christ warned us of doctrine of man.. I think you will agree.

And also we have to recognize the power of God that sustains us.. I think you will agree.

Both are present.. and exist.. Agree?

Christ the Lord said.. Luke 12:49 I am come to send fire on the earth and what will I, if it be already kindled?

The Holy Spirit warms a believers heart and Truth is a consuming fire. (Hebrew 12:29 - Deu 4:24 - Deu 9:3 - John 15:26)

Luke 12:51-52 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. KJV

Those of satan are not HIS, and not all know the truth.

Some are fools and slow to understand that Christ suffered all to HIS glory. (Luke 24:25-26) All that the prophets spoke, tells us what we too will suffer, and how Christ suffered to baptism as it was the first to be accomplished. (Act 3:18)

Why? Because it is written in Luke 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

How are we to unity with the Father, with the Word, and with the Holy Spirit? In Baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire.. )Matthew 3:11-Luke 3:16)

How are be unitied and not divided... One LORD One FAITH One BAPTISM; One GOD and FATHER of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

There is only unity in following Christ, who is the vine. (John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.)

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise


Who accomplished baptism to be suffered? CHRIST

Who has unity in baptism with the WORD, the Father of TRUTH, and the SPIRIT?

1 JOHN 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

6-7-8 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

9If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son

~follow the begotten Son of God

adam7gur,
God did not stop inspiring people after holy scripture was written.
And many have written what which was passed down to them from the apostles and from God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred
I aggree!

adam7gur,
God did not stop inspiring people after holy scripture was written.
And many have written what which was passed down to them from the apostles and from God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

True and we agree, God provided revelation to some people as guidance for their lives, or perhaps even for their church, but nothing to add to general revelation equal to scripture.

Tj3,
Thanks for your opinion on that.
I disagree to a limited extent.
Fred

True and we agree, God provided revelation to some people as guidance for their lives, or perhaps even for their church, but nothing to add to general revelation equal to scripture.

Still I believe that everything that comes out of God's mouth is Scripture in a way 'cause I cannot say that this word of God is special and the other one is not so special.
Everything God says is special, either it is written down or it is sound tradition!

Jesus always rallyed against oral tradition.
"You have heard it said, but I say... "
Is said many times and written as scripture. Should we take the oral tradition over what Jesus says?
Many times Jesus gave a definite answer saying, "It is written..." always quoting from the Old testament(the only scripture or Bible they had at the time.
I believe in a God that if He wants something to be taken as scripture(his own Word) that he is capable and able to do so and has done this.
Anyone can learn all they need to know from the Bible. Once they are born again, the spirit speaks to them as they read scripture and pray to guide them.
Ask yourself, If I were alone on a desert Island and a Bible came floating in on a raft and this was my only experience with religion or God, would my beliefs be different than they are now? If the answer is Yes, take the Bereans attitude and check absolutely everything against what scripture says. See if some pharisaical character has added a burden to you that is not necessary for a loving relationship with our Lord and saviour.

We have to recognize that Christ warned us of doctrine of man.. I think you will agree.

And also we have to recognize the power of God that sustains us.. I think you will agree.

Both are present.. and exist.. Agree?

No, not in the context presented here, I don’t agree. First Christ doesn’t warn us against ‘doctrine’ He warns us against traditions of men. The Church's doctrine are not the traditions of men, rather the Tradition of Christ.


Christ the Lord said.. Luke 12:49 I am come to send fire on the earth and what will I, if it be already kindled?
The Holy Spirit warms a believers heart and Truth is a consuming fire. (Hebrew 12:29 - Deu 4:24 - Deu 9:3 - John 15:26)

Luke 12:51-52 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. KJV

After baptism we baptized stand guard, pray, fast, for ourselves and the souls of the departed. Baptism frees of sin, both actual and original and as such we are like the afflicted in want penitential discipline imposed by the authority of the Holy Church (Cf. Luke 12:50). If the after death we aren’t risen, then why bother. (Cf. St. Francis de Sales, The Catholic Controversy, Church Doctrines, chapter 5) But, Christ wanted speaks passionately to motivate with a burning desire to enter the Kingdom of God through baptism; “I am come to cast fire on the earth.” (Luke 12”49). Figurative speech similar to Sirach 48:1, “Then the prophet Elijah arose like a fire, and his word burned like a torch.”

St. Augustine held that our faith is immature, as a child is immature, and that child matures while in the presence of adults, as a child like faith matures in the presence of men with a mature holiness. (Cf. St. Augustine: Doctrine, 4046) Even among family we have varying maturity of faith which causes conflict; especially with those with infinitely small faith. “The Baptism of Jesus is on his part acceptance and inauguration of his mission as God's suffering Servant. He allows himself to be numbered among sinners; he is already "the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world” (CCC 538). Those members of the body of Christ are numbered among those belonging to Satan, those who “are not HIS, and not all know the truth.” Figuratively, we should be like the sacrifice consumed by the passion for the graces granted in baptism; “Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt offering, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench. And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces; and they said, "The LORD, he is God; the LORD, he is God." (1Kings 18:38-39)

The Catechism teaches that as water signifies birth and the gifts of the Holy Spirit so too does fire symbolizes the effect on the soul of the transforming graces. “The prayer of the prophet Elijah, who "arose like fire" and whose "word burned like a torch," brought down fire from heaven on the sacrifice on Mount Carmel. This event was a "figure" of the fire of the Holy Spirit, who transforms what he touches. John the Baptist, who goes "before (the Lord) in the spirit and power of Elijah," proclaims Christ as the one who "will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire." Jesus will say of the Spirit: "I came to cast fire upon the earth; and would that it were already kindled!" In the form of tongues "as of fire," the Holy Spirit rests on the disciples on the morning of Pentecost and fills them with himself The spiritual tradition has retained this symbolism of fire as one of the most expressive images of the Holy Spirit's actions. "Do not quench the Spirit."(CCC 696)

This theme is express in most all of St. Augustine’s writings, the following is an example:

“Now John, amongst the other things which he spake to those who came to be baptized by him, said, “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance; but He that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear; He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire.” The Lord also said, “Jn truly baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence,” even at Pentecost. Now as to John’s expression, “with fire,” though tribulation also might be understood, which believers were to suffer for the name of Christ; yet may we reasonably think that the same Holy Spirit is signified also under the name of “fire.” Wherefore when He came it is said, “And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.” Hence also the Lord Himself said, “I am come to send fire on the earth.” Hence also the Apostle saith, “Fervent in the spirit;” for from Him comes the fervour of love. “For it is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.” And the contrary to this fervour is what the Lord said, “The love of many shall wax cold.” Now perfect love is the perfect gift of the Holy Spirit. But the first “gift” is that which is concerned with the remission of sins; by which blessing “we are delivered from the power of darkness;” St. Augustine on NT Sermon XX. [LXX. Ben.]

So, you see, we should pray for those consuming fires. You weren’t suggesting otherwise, were you?


Some are fools and slow to understand that Christ suffered all to HIS glory. (Luke 24:25-26) All that the prophets spoke, tells us what we too will suffer, and how Christ suffered to baptism as it was the first to be accomplished. (Act 3:18)

Some are even more foolish when shown the mystery of the Kingdom of God and yet “seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand… (Mark 4:12). A bigger fool will see the plain truth and not recognize it.



Who has unity in baptism with the WORD, the Father of TRUTH, and the SPIRIT?

Just for clarity; if you define the Word as the ‘Holy Scripture’, then the above statement would make you in unity with a book. The incarnation, incarnatio (in: caro, flesh), conforming to the John’s descriptuion of Christ’s conception. John (1:14), (kai ho Logos sarx egeneto), "And the Word was made flesh". Incarnation is the act of a God residing in a human. The ‘word’ of God refers to God’s will and all creation is the product of God’s will. Thus, the incarnate word is the residing of the will of God in a human, i.e. Christ, both God and man, one Divine Person with two natures.

JoeT

Church doctrine and traditions of man are not necessarily two separate issues.

No, not in the context presented here, I don't agree. First Christ doesn't warn us against 'doctrine' He warns us against traditions of men. The Church's doctrine are not the traditions of men, rather the Tradition of Christ.

I would discern this as untrue because I see many churches that have changed what Christ suffered to accomplish.

Lists of changes can be shown such as baptizing innocent new born babies at birth, baptism without full coverage in of water,( a paganism feast) rather then passover feast where the lamb of Christ our passover, and a huge doubt taught to say we are still with sin, and not knowing we were set free from sin by the blood of Christ.

Christ brought division between those that do not believe in HIS WORD, and those who do have faith in Christ.

Those that overcome are connected in unity with the Fire of Spiritual Truth in our Father, and the Holy Spirit when baptized. And have been set free from the curse of sin, having no more sin by the blood of Christ.

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will


Eph 14:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive

I ask you, who teaches that we can be without sin, and unto a fullness of Christ /perfect man?



After baptism we baptized stand guard, pray, fast, for ourselves and the souls of the departed. Baptism frees of sin, both actual and original and as such we are like the afflicted in want penitential discipline imposed by the authority of the Holy Church .

Baptism is not to be in reference in putting away filth of flesh! But it is the answer to good conscience toward God. (FAITH)
refer:1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

And to say baptism afflicted in want for penitential discipline imposed by the authority of the church ... I discern the authority to be aid in God's hand of power and glory, and our Father in Heaven as the Fire. We can not glory in man, but give all glory to the Father.



If the after death we aren't risen, then why bother. (Cf. St. Francis de Sales, The Catholic Controversy, Church Doctrines, chapter 5) But, Christ wanted speaks passionately to motivate with a burning desire to enter the Kingdom of God through baptism; “I am come to cast fire on the earth.” (Luke 12”49). Figurative speech similar to Sirach 48:1, “Then the prophet Elijah arose like a fire, and his word burned like a torch.”

(Luke 12:49) as you have reference is that our Father has kindled HIS FIRE. For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God. His Fire goes before us and destroys evil to protect, and so we will serve HIM in godly fear. Even so we have Baptism as verse 12:50 will go on to say... refer:Luke 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

What you offer as teaching on the after death would better be discerned by what means death and buried in Christ through baptism, able to raise with Christ and in Christ. OR why bother? It has nothing to do with the after death of the flesh departed by the spirit, and returning to the Father that sent it.
BUT it does means death of this world which is sin, and buried in following Christ without sin, able to raise as Christ prayed to the Father, so we are not of this world but one with Him.
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. (1 Cr 2:5)

John 17:15-17 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth





“Now John, amongst the other things which he spake to those who came to be baptized by him, said, “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance; but He that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear; He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire.” The Lord also said, “Jn truly baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence,” even at Pentecost. Now as to John's expression, “with fire,” though tribulation also might be understood, which believers were to suffer for the name of Christ; yet may we reasonably think that the same Holy Spirit is signified also under the name of “fire.”

Joe, I discern difference in the thinking that the Holy Spirit might be the same name of Fire.. the sufficiency in understand that our Father is the consuming FIRE. We do not separate or divide Father, Son and Holy Spirit.. Knowing each are sufficient, and agree as "ONE" with the Father.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:





So, you see, we should pray for those consuming fires. You weren't suggesting otherwise, were you?


I pray in the spirit of our Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus, that the Father will reveal to you what is HIS will in wisdom for you. I trust that in baptism by confessed faith in the begotten Son of God, we are gifted according to the measure, and will of God. If we follow Christ, and deny ourselves in our own pride, we can be blessed in doing the will of God with HIS hand of strength to guide us and protect us that being by HIS FIRE.




Some are even more foolish when shown the mystery of the Kingdom of God and yet “seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand… (Mark 4:12). A bigger fool will see the plain truth and not recognize it.

NOTED:
The sower soweth the word.

And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

RECOGNIZE that we must hold stedfast in ONE LORD... ONE FAITH... ONE BAPTISM
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all, so that we have all that we has been given to overcome satan.

As Peter stands unyielding as a rock in his LOVE for Christ, we too must pray in the spirit of truth that is our Faith in Christ, that our Father will grant us the blessing to be all HE created us to be. And that we bow to HIS hand of strength that can destroy evil before us. Asking in the Name of Christ...



Who has unity in baptism with the WORD, the Father of TRUTH, and the SPIRIT?



Just for clarity; if you define the Word as the 'Holy Scripture', then the above statement would make you in unity with a book. The incarnation, incarnatio (in: caro, flesh), conforming to the John's descriptuion of of Christ's conception. John (1:14), (kai ho Logos sarx egeneto), "And the Word was made flesh". Incarnation is the act of a God residing in a human. The 'word' of God refers to God's will and all creation is the product of God's will. Thus, the incarnate word is the residing of the will of God in a human, i.e., Christ, both God and man, one Divine Person with two natures.

JoeT

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Father + Son + Holy Spirit undivided=unity


To the praise of HIS glory.. (Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of HIS glory, who first trusted in Christ. )


~child of God in Chirst

Church doctrine and traditions of man are not necessarily two separate issues.

How do you say that?

Still I believe that everything that comes out of God's mouth is Scripture in a way 'cause I cannot say that this word of God is special and the other one is not so special.
Everything God says is special, either it is written down or it is sound tradition!

The problem is that when people say that they heard from God, and hold to that view, they are saying that you must accept what they have said in addition to scripture, in that case, even if it adds to a doctrine or contradicts it, which is something that scripture explicitly condemns.

The way that we determine if something is of God is to follow what scripture says, for example, the Bereans tested the words of Paul (inspired by God) by going to scripture. When Jesus validated doctrine, He went to scripture. Why would men today be exempt from following in the paths of Jesus and Paul?

People indeed do hear from God topday, but whatever God says will always align with His written word.

Doctrine simply means what the Church believes, teaches and follows. So you have the things Sndbay said, baptism, incorporating Jesus' birth and death into pagan holidays, fish Friday, waving incense and many many other things that churches do in the name of Jesus that have nothing to do with Jesus... that is how I say that.

Doctrine simply means what the Church believes, teaches and follows. So you have the things Sndbay said, baptism, incorporating Jesus' birth and death into pagan holidays, fish Friday, waving incense and many many other things that churches do in the name of Jesus that have nothing to do with Jesus....that is how I say that.

The Bible also teaches doctrine, but not all church doctrine comes from scripture.

I would discern this as untrue because I see many churches that have changed what Christ suffered to accomplish.

Lists of changes can be shown such as baptizing innocent new born babies at birth, baptism without full coverage in of water,( a paganism feast) rather then passover feast where the lamb of Christ our passover, and a huge doubt taught to say we are still with sin, and not knowing we were set free from sin by the blood of Christ.

Christ brought division between those that do not believe in HIS WORD, and those that have faith in Christ.

Those that overcome are connected in unity with the Fire of Spiritual Truth in our Father, and the Holy Spirit when baptized. And have been set free from the curse of sin, having no more sin by the blood of Christ.

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will

Eph 14:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive

You make at least two erroneous suppositions. The first is that the Church (RC) negotiates what it's doctrines. All doctrines, revealed are Divine Truth and disciplines of the Church are the result of Christ's teachings which have been passed down through the ages by the Apostles and their successors. This is the teaching Magisterium of the Church and is headed by the Pope who is made infallible with the strength of the Holy Spirit. And holding that entrance into the Kingdom of God requires (necessitates, has need of, is pre-requisite, a precondition), then baptizing children would seem to me to be a natural thing; notwithstanding the absence of any Scriptural prohibition.

Christ didn't bring division. In fact he prayed that ”all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.” (John 17: 21)

Addressing the second supposition: I can't see how (or for what reason) that one would insist that Christ Himself would bring division, especially given John 17:21. So the contention is that God was incarnate in man to bring division? He says himself I came to give testimony to the God's Truth, (Cf. John 18:37). Why would a man let alone God do such a thing; do you not recall a “house divided cannot stand”?

Added note: The Catholic Church does not depend on uniformity, rather it is one of unity.

JoeT

Doctrine simply means what the Church believes, teaches and follows.

Doctrine refers to the knowledge imparted by teaching. It’s has the same meaning as catechesis. ‘Doctrine’ is a principle taught, not an the establishment of the principle. The principles taught by the Roman Catholic Church are Divine morals and ethics.


So you have the things Sndbay said, baptism

Baptism is an absolute necessity to enter into the Kingdom of God. : Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:5) i.e. principle taught by Christ.


incorporating Jesus' birth and death into pagan holidays

Many have shown that that Christ’s Birthday can be shown to be on or about December 25. And if it isn’t how is it that it’s a pagan holiday. Is it a pagan holiday today?


fish Friday

Wow, that hurts! No fish Friday? You mean all this time we Catholics have been fasting for no reason? Praying for no reason?


…waving incense…

There are a couple of people I know who need a double dose – you know they seem to be rather odoriferous.


… and many many other things that churches do in the name of Jesus that have nothing to do with Jesus....that is how I say that.

And if there were "many many other things" it would seem to me that you could list one valid complaint. There doesn’t seem to be any substantial complaints here.

JoeT

There is baptism as Jesus taught and there is baptism as the church does.

Don't you know anything about the history of Christmas and Easter and how the church changed the dates of Jesus' birth and death to these pagan holidays? Also I would like to see your references for Jesus being born on Dec 25th. I have seen much to the contrary. Also Easter is celebrated on different days within a month or so, so how could that be the day of Jesus resurrection?

It may be a reason to you to eat fish on Fridays but it is a tradition of man not Biblical.

[QUOTE=N0help4u;1818825]There is baptism as Jesus taught and there is baptism as the church does.

Don't you know anything about the history of Christmas and Easter and how the church changed the dates of Jesus' birth and death to these pagan holidays? Also I would like to see your references for Jesus being born on Dec 25th. I have seen much to the contrary. Also Easter is celebrated on different days within a month or so, so how could that be the day of Jesus resurrection?



In what way is the baptism Jesus taught different from what the Chruch teaches?

And what dates would you prefer for Christ's birthday? The first Easter was on Passover, remember?

How does the tradition of fasting affect our faith negatively?


JoeT

Infant baptism, sprinkling.

The point isn't what I prefer but WHY would the Church choose pagan holidays to celebrate Jesus birthday?
Even with Easter and Passover being the same day why is it Christian tradition to celebrate with Easter eggs?

Infant baptism, sprinkling.

The point isn't what I prefer but WHY would the Church choose pagan holidays to celebrate Jesus birthday?
Even with Easter and Passover being the same day why is it Christian tradition to celebrate with Easter eggs?

The date for Christmas was unsettled for many centuries. The Gospels don’t give us any help. Back dating from Zachary’s Temple service can render Christ’s birth in late December. But all the computations based on the Temples feast days are unreliable. An approach was made using Old Testament festivals suggests a September date. Among the theories already discussed is the following:

The well-known solar feast...of Natalis Invicti, celebrated on 25 December, has a strong claim on the responsibility for our December date. For the history of the solar cult, its position in the Roman Empire, and syncretism with Mithraism, see Cumont's epoch-making "Textes et Monuments" etc., I, ii, 4, 6, p. 355. …

The earliest rapprochement of the births of Christ and the sun is in Cyprian, "De pasch. Comp.", xix, "O quam præclare providentia ut illo die quo natus est Sol . . . nasceretur Christus." — "O, how wonderfully acted Providence that on that day on which that Sun was born . . . Christ should be born."

In the fourth century, Chrysostom, "del Solst. Et Æquin." (II, p. 118, ed. 1588), says: "Sed et dominus noster nascitur mense decembris . . . VIII Kal. Ian. . . . Sed et Invicti Natalem appelant. Quis utique tam invictus nisi dominus noster? . . . Vel quod dicant Solis esse natalem, ipse est Sol iustitiæ." — "But Our Lord, too, is born in the month of December . . . the eight before the calends of January [25 December] . . ., But they call it the 'Birthday of the Unconquered'. Who indeed is so unconquered as Our Lord . . .? Or, if they say that it is the birthday of the Sun, He is the Sun of Justice."

Already Tertullian (Apol., 16; cf. Ad. Nat., I, 13; Orig. c. Cels., VIII, 67, etc) had to assert that Sol was not the Christians' God; Augustine (Tract xxxiv, in Joan. In P.L., XXXV, 1652) denounces the heretical identification of Christ with Sol.

Pope Leo I (Serm. xxxvii in nat. dom., VII, 4; xxii, II, 6 in P.L., LIV, 218 and 198) bitterly reproves solar survivals — Christians, on the very doorstep of the Apostles' basilica, turn to adore the rising sun. Sun-worship has bequeathed features to modern popular worship in Armenia, where Christians had once temporarily and externally conformed to the cult of the material sun (Cumont, op. cit., p. 356).

But even should a deliberate and legitimate "baptism" of a pagan feast be seen here no more than the transference of the date need be supposed. The "mountain-birth" of Mithra and Christ's in the "grotto" have nothing in common: Mithra's adoring shepherds (Cumont, op. cit., I, ii, 4, p. 304 sqq.) are rather borrowed from Christian sources than vice versa. (Source: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Christmas (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm) )

What is the importance of a Christian feast being substituted for a pagan feast? This seems logical when teaching pagans Christianity; substitute Christian observances for pagan ones.

To my knowledge Easter eggs can’t necessarily be attributed to Catholics. And if Easter eggs could be attributed to Catholics I don’t understand how this would affect one’s faith. It’s a custom my family participates in – to my knowledge none of them have been struck by lightning yet.

JoeT

Christ didn't bring division. In fact he prayed that ”all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.” (John 17: 21)

Addressing the second supposition: I can't see how (or for what reason) that one would insist that Christ Himself would bring division, especially given John 17:21. So the contention is that God was incarnate in man to bring division? He says himself I came to give testimony to the God's Truth, (Cf. John 18:37). Why would a man let alone God do such a thing; do you not recall a “house divided cannot stand”?
JoeT

Obviously you are not reading what I have posted and said. Go back to read post #69 that does reference Luke 12:51-52. The division is between evil and godly.


The Father Son and Holy Spirit delivered what is possible in godly unity by faith.
Eph 4:5-6 One Lord, one Faith, one Baptism One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


To confirm what I posted refer: Posting #78


Eph 14:13[/B] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive

(Luke 12:51) - "Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; 52 for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two, and two against three..."

Most people that have used times and events in the Bible have come up with September 29th as Jesus' birth day.

Here is just one of many links I have read on the subject
When Was Jesus Born? - 144000.net (http://144000.net/english/when_was_jesus_born.htm)

Obviously you are not reading what I have posted and said. Go back to read post #69 that does reference Luke 12:51-52. The division is between evil and godly.


The Father Son and Holy Spirit delivered what is possible in godly unity by faith.
Eph 4:5-6 One Lord, one Faith, one Baptism One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


To confirm what I posted refer: Posting #78

Well Ok, I stand corrected. But, if you weren't so confounded cryptic I wouldn't make that kind of mistake.

In what way is the baptism Jesus taught diffrent from what the Chruch teaches?

Baptism was suffered by both John and Christ. (Matthew 3:15-16) And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water.



And what dates would you prefer for Christ's birthday?

September 29


From Conception, according to Jewish reckoning 280 days. AND Gentile reckoning 280 The chart of birth offered:
Day JEWISH Month Gentile Day

1 Tebeth 1st ( Dec 25-26) December 7days
2 Dec 26-27
3 Dec 27-28

8 Tebeth 8th ( Jan 1-2 )
Tebeth total 29 days

Sebat 30 days January 31 days
Adar 29 days February 29 days
Nisan 30 March 31
Zif 29 April 30
Sivan 30 May 31
Thammuz 29 June 30
AB 30 July 31
Elul 29 August 31
Ethanim 15 September 29
280 280 280

Concluded: 15TH of ETHANIM = SEPTEMBER 29, EMMUNUAL BORN


Luke 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth
Luke 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
Luke 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Luke 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

Plus Luke 2:2 thr 2:7 give evidence to register of tax which was the first tax made by Cyrenius under the emperor Caesar Augustus Luke 2:1... The Roman government keep documents for these registeries. and the time frame of this new first and new tax.

sufficiency in conception being Dec 24 on the eve of Mary's journey to her cousin Elizabeth. Elizabeth by scripture was with her Priest husband who was scheduled according to the course as written.



The first Easter was on Passover, remember?

Have you read how the single word Easter was determined, and then written in place of Passover. Christ and the disciples spoke of Passover , and it was called Passover feast.
Refer: 1 Cr 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us

Sorry to say I will not be able to continue this thread any further. Vacation time, and a flight leaving in the early hours..

God's peace to you all..

I think you guys could argue and argue and argue and you will NEVER convince each other that one of you is absolutely correct.

Doctrine refers to the knowledge imparted by teaching. It’s has the same meaning as catechesis. ‘Doctrine’ is a principle taught, not an the establishment of the principle. The principles taught by the Roman Catholic Church are Divine morals and ethics.

Manmade if not found in scripture.


Baptism is an absolute necessity to enter into the Kingdom of God. : Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:5) i.e. principle taught by Christ.

Jesus explained here, as you were shown previously, that he was speaking of the physical birth and then being born again in the spirit. Nowhere in scripture does it say that water baptism is essential for salvation. If so, then Jesus lied to the thief on the cross, and there would be no hope for any of the OT saints.

Sorry to say I will not be able to continue this thread any further. Vacation time, and a flight leaving in the early hours..

God's peace to you all..

Have a safe trip!

(Luke 12:51) - "Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; 52 for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two, and two against three..."

Most people that have used times and events in the Bible have come up with September 29th as Jesus' birth day.

Here is just one of many links I have read on the subject
When Was Jesus Born? - 144000.net (http://144000.net/english/when_was_jesus_born.htm)

There are many who start the 40 week count during the feast of Purim, depending on the year about 14 and 15 Adar (Feb.-March). Purim is a feast commemorating freedom; the deliverance recorded in the Book of Esther - interesting Christ is conceived to free us during the feast of freedom. As I've been told this gets us within a few days of Dec. 25. Even still, it's just as questionable as any other computation.


Assuming September 29th is correct, then how does this affect the holiness of the Roman Catholic Church?

JoeT

i think you guys could argue and argue and argue and you will NEVER convince eachother that one of you is absolutely correct.

The truth is that I am not going to convince anyone of a spiritual truth - it is only the work of the Holy Spirit on the heart of someone else who is willing to submit to God word that will convince another person of the truth found in God's word. Some use God word as the standard of truth (as I do), others rely on the teachings of the men in leadership of their church, and others rely upon other men for their teachings.

The truth is that I am not going to convince anyone of a spiritual truth - it is only the work of the Holy Spirit on the heart of someone else who is willing to submit to God word that will convince another person of the truth found in God's word.

You are right. But doesn't God want us to spread the word? The holy spirit cannot come into someone's heart if they do not hear the word... right?

My own position is this:

Any tradition NOT endorsed or started by Jesus or the Apostles, including Paul is not equal to those traditions clearly written down in the Bible.

The Jews added many traditions to the Law of Moses, and so-called orthodox churches have done the same thing to scriptures. Not good!

you are right. but doesnt God want us to spread the word? the holy spirit cannot come into someones heart if they do not hear the word.....right?

That is what I do. The Holy Spirit can work on someone's heart, and prepare them to receive the truth, but those who are saved are to bring the truth. In the end though, the Holy Spirit will not force Himself on anyone.

Exactly. I'm still working on that in myself. I'm natually a shy person (unless I'm on line) and so its difficult for me to spread His Word sometimes because I get flustered. Not embarrassed, I'm not embarrassed of my Lord or getting His word out. But I just get all tongue tied. I've been praying about it and I'm getting better at it. Its easy on line however :)


As far as jesus vs tradtition, the question did not make a lot of sense to me, but ill answer best I can understand it.

Jesus fought tradition in the ways he interacted with other people. Both his followers, and the non believers. He treated his fellow man as equals. Believing that NO ONE was better or worse than another. And I feel that this included HIMSELF. He never tried to say or even imply that he was better than his fellow man because he was the son of god. He believed we were ALL the same in the eyes of our lord.

At least that's how I understand it.


As for the religeon part of the question I don't fully understand what the OP means, so I dotn feel prepared to answer it accordingling.

.

Assuming September 29th is correct, then how does this affect the holiness of the Roman Catholic Church?

JoeT

I thought we were discussing tradition, not holiness.

I thought we were discussing tradition, not holiness.

We were, but give me a few minutes - I'm in the middle of a report - I'll define Holy Tradition.

I'm sorry jenniepepsi, but I must take exception to your statement above.

Jesus said things about Himself that could not be said of anyone else.

John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one.
(KJV)

(He claimed equality with God the Father)

John 8:46
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
(KJV)

(He claimed to be free from sin)

Conversely, He said this about (some of) the Jews.

John 8:44
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
(KJV)

There is an infinite gap between the Son of God and children of the devil.

I stand corrected galveston. I apologies. I still have a lot of learning to do :)

Well you were right too JP in a way

Phl 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Phl 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Phl 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Phl 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;

Phl 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Go with following Christ Jesus

John 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

Following in thirst of HIS WORD

(Matthew 10:42) (John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. )


Think of it, to the very end, it was shown any other man can not give what Christ has given us in HIS WORD/HIS FLESH..

Good points sndbay!

Also
Welcome back from your trip!

To the OP.

Jesus fought the traditions of the Jews (Talmud) by presenting absolute TRUTH.

And that truth is HIMSELF.

Once we have made Him our LORD (boss) and study what He said and did to become disciples, we understand the difference between truth and tradition.

While tradition may sometimes convey some truth, it is not the same thing as truth, and should never be given the same weight in our considerations.

Joe,
Very well said and done.
Fred