OK, here's the situation. I have been with my fiancée now for 1 year 2 months and 15 days. Just two days ago, she cheated on me for the third time, but before passing judgment, please read ahead. The first time was like two days after us officially dating, and she was stone drunk. The second time, was 6 months after us going out, and she was with her friends, again stone drunk, but her other "friends" (who are females) wandered off, and left her with another guy (who was sober). Then just recently she was with those same friends, and yes, unfortunately stone drunk, and ended up involuntarily cheating. I know alcohol is not a good excuse, and she actually isn't trying to use it as one. In fact, she keeps beating herself up about it, and says I deserve someone better. But, we are engaed, and I love her with every ounce of my heart, and break up is not an option for me.

I tell her that when she says she she break up with me because of something she did, I say it sounds like she's giving up on our relationship, and not willing to try and work through it. I talked her into emptying out the pantry of liquor, because we both know she can thin a lot better when she is sober. I know she wouldn't cheat on me if she were sober, so we both agreed on getting rid of the alcohol. What can I do to help her through this? She been beating herself up about it for the past two days. I tried telling her to quit beating herself up about it, and I forgave her, (all three times), but she keeps saying "well, im a horrible person, how could i do that to someone i love? you deserve much better than me." and so on and so forth.

I am trying to work through this with her, but the biggest problem is how much she keeps kicking herself, and belittleing herself. I told her numerous times I have forgiven her, and I am NOT going to leave her. I mean we had like a three hour long conversation, like adults, no yelling, and she still has begun to hate herself. Any ideas?:(

I read the first sentence... that is all that is needed. She would have had her a$$ kicked out of bed the first time she was "stone" drunk. You don't want to leave her, then you will reap what you sow!

Her pattern is just inexcusable, period. Making excuses for someone once is understandable, but three times is flat out ignorant. You, my friend, are a better person than I.

I would suggest she seek therapy if she is having self esteem issues right now, as I don't think there is much you can do. Sounds like this relationship was built on a pretty pi$$ poor foundation to begin with. And she is right, you do deserve someone better than her. She can wallow in self pity as far as I am concerned, or she can seek help for herself.

You're a good man for sure. Alcohol is no excuse. If she loved you at all the first time a pass was made at her drunk or not she would know better to walk away. Does being drunk make her forget she isn't single? I don't think so. If your crazy enough to try this again with her then I would suggest some kind of AA or support group for her drinking. She wants to blame the alcohol, then make her stop. So sober she has no excuses for the next time she cheats.

As someone who has cheated, she isn't going to forgive herself, she is going to feel guilty everytime she is with you and your relationship is compromised. It doesn't matter how hard you fight to keep her.

As someone who has been cheated on, breaking up is your only option. One year and some months is not a lifelong commitment and she has violated your trust 3 times. You do deserve better and we can not tell you how to fix glass this broken.

Only suggestion is counseling. More importantly could be the counseling for you, as you clearly lack self-esteem.

The one just recently her other friend told me there were not going to be any guys there, at their house, she wanted to spend time with her friends. I had to work the next morning, and it was already like 2 am, and I guess they went to someone else's house and their son was their, and he got stone drunk as well.

And by the way, I never said she was using the alcohol as an excuse.

You are the one using the alcohol as the excuse...

Leaving the toilet seat up - mistake
Not doing the dishes - mistake
boinking a stranger - relationship F%^& up!

Here's a dose of reality. You are a doormat for this girl, she uses alcohol as a way of cheating on you. I've been around girls completely wasted that have had better morals. I've been completely wasted and didn't do anything I didn't want to do. She cheated on you, not once but THREE times! You would think the first time she drank and boinked a dude, she would have learned. Dope! I can't handle my liquor. If you decide to take her back, then get used to this rinse and repeat life, because it's going to be one hell of a ride.

I can already see you later posting on her "my wife is pregnant but I don't know if the baby is mine"

Grow a set, you are being abused and walked all over!

Doesn't matter what you are saying, you are looking to excuse the behavior, an excuse your own behavior for staying and both are really not acceptable. We don't condone dysfunction here and we all see it. Your relationship is doomed, you are insecure/afraid to be alone so you stay, you are using love as an excuse for being a doormat. ::shrug:: I don't think you will find the answers you seek here, maybe a few shakes of a Magic 8 ball will give you better results. Of course, it is spring, there must be daisies somewhere... 'she loves me, she loves me not... '

You are the one using the alcohol as the excuse...

Thank you kc... no matter who uses it as an excuse its still a piss poor excuse.

I would be concerned about whether your girlfriend has a serious problem with alcohol. Removing it from your home won't necessarily address that issue. Also, when you forgive behavior that shouldn't be excused, you become an enabler and are actually reinforcing the very behavior that you want to end. She is controlling you by forcing you to "prove" your love for her by forgiving her for cheating. She is controlling you by gaining your sympathy by feeling so "guilty" that now you are all caught up in how to fix THAT issue in addition to having to worry about whether she will get drunk again and disregard your feelings. How do YOU fit into this picture? Who here is concerned about YOUR well-being? YOU certainly don't appear to be. Why would you want to be with a woman who can't control her consumption of alcohol to the point you had to remove it from your house to protect yourself from her abuse of it and who is able to focus everything in this situation on herself rather than on the issue at hand. You need to seriously examine why you would want to remain in this situation. You are not a good guy if you are enabling sick behavior on the part of a partner.

I just read the first sentence and immediately started writing a response. To begin with, your relationship is FUBAR'd.

Secondly, you are right, her low self-esteem is the biggest issue in the relationship, and it's why she's a cheater. She hates herself and unfortunately, you can't fix her, no one can.

Right again, alcohol is no excuse. Someone who lets himself get to the point of no-control just has poor character. You drink the booze, it doesn't drink you. Being as this happened three times, she probably has reputation among her friends of her social-circle that I know you would hate.

Lastly, she will get fed up with herself and end the relationship if you don't make the first move. From what you say it's clear that she respects you (it's relative), enough to let you go instead of cheating on you behind your back (I assume she told you she cheated up-front?). The least you can do at this point is be the one to cut her loose so you can protect your ego.

And, just for sh*ts and giggles, if you somehow do work through this, would you really want to be in a relationship where you have to wonder where she is every single night? That's the kind of stress that would shorten your life by years.

Your enabling bad behavior when you both need help.

Contact ALANON for some facts.

alanon - Ask.com Search (http://www.ask.com/web?q=alanon&search=&qsrc=0&o=0&l=dir)

Not only are you blaming the alcohol but your placing blame on her friends as well by writing, " she was with her friends, again stone drunk, but her other "friends" (who are females) wandered off, and left her with another guy (who was sober)."

You can't babysit her! You removed the alcohol from your house but what is going happen the next time she decides to hang out with her friends? Or the next time she has a wandering eye while she is drunk?

This whole thing is going change your life around if you stay. I guess you're a bigger person than me because I would have been out the door the first time.

No offense but she sounds like she wants you feel sorry for her mistake. If she feels bad enough about it and you love her so much, you can't stand seeing her hating herself and she knows this! If she really does love you she woud have been at home with you instead getting drunk with other people friends or not. If she knows she won't cheat if she's sober then she should have no problem throwing out the alcohol. If she is an alcoholic it will be tough to get through but she'll make it. You need to be strong for her if you want to make it work. If she is having a bad day take her out to eat or to the beach or to the park even and just spend time alone. Find something she really loves to do and make a habit out of it instead of going out with her friends and getting drunk. I dated a guy for 5 years that always cheated on me. It was hard to let go but I did and my life was so much easier not worrying about what or who he is doing!! Now I am with the greatest guy in the world and we have a 4 year old daughter. Just ask yourself... "where will we be in 5 years? And by the way if she knows she cheats on you while she drunk why does she like to drink so much? Why would she go get drunk when she knows she can't control herself? Best bet get out and enjoy life. You should not suffer because she wants to be drunk with her friends. And some friends she has, get her drunk and ditch her?? Are you sure you know everything??

Then just recently she was with those same friends, and yes, unfortunately stone drunk, and ended up involuntarily cheating

Involuntarily cheating? Really? The only time I had sex involuntarily was when I was raped, every other time was mutual consent and voluntary.

Was she passed out? Did the guy take advantage of her? Did she consent?

You are coming up with every excuse you can think of to accept this behavior.

3rd times a charm, for me it's 1 shot only. So, how many more times does she have to cheat for you to say it's enough?

This won't stop, she's getting away with it, crying her crocodile tears and maintaining you while sleeping around with random guys. She's got you by the balls, and you're allowing it.

People treat you the way you let them treat you. You tell me, do you deserve this? If so, why?

Once a cheater, always a cheater.

I can never be with a cheater.

You have forgiven her, but that's half the battle.

At first I thought I could forgive my ex for cheating on me, she broke up with me and I am not blinded by emotions anymore and when I look back now, I can never forgive her for doing that. A little self respect can go pretty far.

I think she is trying to show you, she doesn't want to be with you. She keeps saying you deserve better and beat herself up about it to make you realize you deserve better so you could leave her. - Just my observation, I could be wrong.

Cheating, drunk or not is still cheating and is intentional regardless.

If she can never forgive you or stop beating herself up than I honestly don't think this relationship would work.

Only she can do that and only time will tell.

Best wishes.

Ok, I'm actually going to disagree with the consensus here. I don't believe your girlfriend has cheated at all. I believe she has been raped. Being drunk is not an excuse for a guy to have sex with a girl. Alcohol removes inhibitions. Any guy that has sex with someone "stone drunk" is committing rape. She should be prosecuting these rapists.

In my opinion her problem is not cheating, but alcoholism. Anyone who can let themselves get that drunk that they will have sex with a stranger (or even a relative stranger) has a very serious problem with alcohol.

If you really love her then I would over look the alleged cheating and I would go to Alanon and help her deal with her alcoholism. You fell in love with the sober girl, not the drunk. If you can get her to be the sober girl all the time, then you will have your love back. If not, if she won't deal with her alcoholism, then you will need to decide whether to continue the relationship. But I would look on her having sex those times as a symptom, not the real problem.

I would also have grave concerns about her so-called friends. Friends don't let a friend become stone drunk and then leave them alone with a guy. You may have to offer an ultimatum, her friends or you. You need to show her that these girls are not her friends if they let her get into those situations.

I have to disagree completely with you Scott. Prosecute these guys? Where is the responsibility in her? There is a difference between being so drunk you pass out, and then a guy forces himself on you... I doubt that is the issue, as I would find it hard that she just so happened to run into three different guys that would take advantage of such a situation.

Having sex with someone "stone drunk" doesn't mean rape... that is almost offensive to say. Two totally different actions. If both parties are intoxicated and both consent to sex, then I am guessing you call that rape? She does not have a leg to stand on if she wants to prosecute these "rapists." Good luck with that.

If she can't handle alcohol that is one thing, but to imply that she has been "rapped" three different times is absurd. If this would have happened one time, as in a one time, "oops, I suck at handling alcohol" deal, then I would say fine... three times is just flat out inexcusable. I have NEVER seen any girl get so wasted that she just so happens to "get raped" three times.

I have to disagree completely with you Scott. Prosecute these guys? Where is the responsibility in her? There is a difference between being so drunk you pass out, and then a guy forces himself on you...I doubt that is the issue, as I would find it hard that she just so happened to run into three different guys that would take advantage of such a situation.

Having sex with someone "stone drunk" doesn't mean rape...that is almost offensive to say. Two totally different actions. If both parties are intoxicated and both consent to sex, then I am guessing you call that rape? She does not have a leg to stand on if she wants to prosecute these "rapists." Good luck with that.

If she can't handle alcohol that is one thing, but to imply that she has been "rapped" three different times is absurd.

I agree with you KC. She drank to the point her judgement was off.

I can see both sides of KC and Scott's arguments. While I agree with KC, Scott raises a good problem that is now growing in our country. I believe there is a law in the works that would put a limit on sexual advances while drinking is involved, foolish yes, necessary now a days, yes.

I believe there is more missing from this story, surely the blame does fall on her because you should know your drinking limits and she passed them 3 different times(that she has told him about)

The issue with this is that it is overdrawn with ambiguity. Creating such a law puts guys in awkward places, as no judge or jury would convict a girl of "raping" a guy that is too drunk. Thus, if a girl gets up after being wasted and having a one night stand, and doesn't like the fact it happened, what would be stopping her from yelling "rape" to some law enforcement agency or lawyer?

People have a personal responsibility to conduct themselves in a way that uphold their morals. If they cannot function while intoxicated, then don't drink, that simple.

surely the blame does fall on her because you should know your drinking limits and she passed them 3 different times(that she has told him about)

Yes and no. Alcoholism is a disease. Once an alcoholic starts drinking they usually can't control when they stop. Alcoholism can only be fully controlled by not drinking at all.

I do, however, doubt that these three incidents were the only times she has been "stone drunk". Its just that she was raped during those three times. It also makes me wonder whether the OP is enabling her alcoholism.

I agree, I believe there is a lot missing to this story. I would also wonder about the character of her friends.

Let's say she is an alcoholic.

I agree there are warning signs of alcoholism all over the place in his post.

I don't agree that we should encourage him to stay in this relationship, that has been greatly compromised by her actions/symptoms even if they are alcohol induced. She hasn't brought up her own inability to control her drinking, which indicate true remorse and step one - admitting there is a problem.

I think the best advice to the OP is that this relationship is young, she has issues to deal with whether it's alcohol or low self-esteem, she will continue to have issues intensified by her actions in the last year. Take your warning signs and do what is healthy for you, pack your bags and hit the road.

Ya know, her claim to be drunk could be a lie. Having sex while drunk is an easily believable excuse. It'd sound much worse to him if she told him she's been sleeping around "stone sober".


People have a personal responsibility to conduct themselves in a way that uphold their morals. If they cannot function while intoxicated, then don't drink, that simple.
Well said.

Your not going to listen to anyone on these boards anyway. Hate to say it, but you're the type of person whose going to keep giving in- keep making excuses- keep thinking the rest of the world is fools.

Then 8 years from now when she's cheated on you 25 more times, has two children that aren't yours, and finally SHE grows the balls to leave you like she wants to now, THEN finally you'll look back and realize all those people on some foolish website were actually giving you good advice.

I'm hesitant to say anything because I can tell you won't listen. You already made your decision and your hoping people on this forum will back you up and support you.

I really hope you prove me wrong though. Your making a HUGE mistake. If she cheats on you 3 times in a year and a half I GUARANTEE you she will cheat on you after you've been married. She does NOT respect you and she IS walking all over you. You still will write this post and all others off as foolish.

Good luck buddy... good luck.

I would also like to point out that this board and society in general is quick to call people who have trouble behaving while intoxicated an alcoholic... most alcoholics cannot function without alcohol, while she exhibits behavior that is in direct conflict with that.

I caution people about allowing the ignorant behavior of a drunk to throw them in as having a disease.

I have to disagree completely with you Scott. Prosecute these guys? Where is the responsibility in her? There is a difference between being so drunk you pass out, and then a guy forces himself on you...I doubt that is the issue, as I would find it hard that she just so happened to run into three different guys that would take advantage of such a situation.

Having sex with someone "stone drunk" doesn't mean rape...that is almost offensive to say. Two totally different actions. If both parties are intoxicated and both consent to sex, then I am guessing you call that rape? She does not have a leg to stand on if she wants to prosecute these "rapists." Good luck with that.

If she can't handle alcohol that is one thing, but to imply that she has been "rapped" three different times is absurd. If this would have happened one time, as in a one time, "oops, I suck at handling alcohol" deal, then I would say fine...three times is just flat out inexcusable. I have NEVER seen any girl get so wasted that she just so happens to "get raped" three times.

I will say there is a lot of sympathy for your argument. I just did some research and juries are overwhelming unlikley to convict if the woman was drunk. But there seems to be some movement in the other direction. There have been laws proposed in the UK that will make it a crime to have sex with a woman too drunk to refuse. A recent case in NY also points out the willingess to prosecute:

NYPD officer accused of raping East Village woman while drunk (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/02/28/2009-02-28_nypd_officer_accused_of_raping_east_vill.html)

Maybe my suggesting that she prosecute was a bit over the top. But I stand by my statement that she was not cheating, but was, in fact, raped.

You ask where her responsibility was. Let me take a different tack. If a woman dresses provactively, is she asking to raped? The fact is that once someone gets drunk, they will lose the capacity to fully control their actions. So does the conscious decision to drink mean they give consent to sex? Not In my opinion!

You refer to consent, but you miss the point. Being drunk removes one's capacity to give consent! And I'm referring to being "stone drunk" which I'm interpreting as just short of passing out. What I would call "falling down drunk".

And no, the accusation of rape is far from absurd. Rape is sex without consent. There is more than sufficient evidence to show that drinking too much removes inhibitions and reduces the person's ability to make decisions. Therefore, someone can certainly be too drunk to legally consent.

But we are here to help the OP with his decision about his relationship. On that basis, I again, stand by my response. Whether you believe that a criminal act was committed or not, I maintain that the girlfriend was not consciously "cheating". That she, in fact, had sex without conscious consent. On that basis, I don't think her actions were cheating. And I very strongly feel the problem has nothing to do with having sex and everything to do with alcoholism. That's the problem the OP has to deal with.

I would also like to point out that this board and society in general is quick to call people who have trouble behaving while intoxicated an alcoholic...most alcoholics cannot function without alcohol, while she exhibits behavior that is in direct conflict with that.

I caution people about allowing the ignorant behavior of a drunk to throw them in as having a disease.

My mother is an alcoholic and that isn't necessarily true.

There are plenty of functioning alcoholics and my mom was one for years before full blown alcoholism. Alcoholics do not understand their own personal limits and with the way that she consumes alcohol, there are severe signs that she has a problem with alcohol.

This is the last post I put on this thread, because the excuses are just rampant!

1. Wearing a skimpy outfit and drinking too much are not anywhere near the same thing. I get what you are saying, and as a former police officer it pisses me off that you put seem to be putting me in the category of "blame the victim" not the suspect...

2. Problems with handling alcohol go on the person... most people have problems with alcohol if they LET IT get the best of them. Calling someone an alcoholic because they have a low tolerance and don't know how to handle that is like calling a person a retard because they lack a lot of intellegence or are extremely slow in picking things up. I am sick of this society being so quick to say, "Aww..you poor thing, you must have a disease..that is why you act the way you do!" Get off your a$$, realize your actions and fix them.

3. The problem with the OP's girlfriend, or whatever the hell she is stems from her lack of self control, period. Maybe she is an alcoholic, I don't know... don't have enough information.

As far as giving consent when drunk, I would think that every time I had drunk sex with my girlfriend, it would be classified as rape in your eyes.

I think there is a lot more to the story than meets the eye here. I would love to talk to the OP's girl so we could get a clear picture, as ANYTIME a person sleeps with 3 different strangers, regardless of intoxication level, there are bigger problems that need to be laid on the table. I am not trying to pick a fight, and I respect others' opinions. All in all, I just think all of us have been quick to pull the triger on something we don't have a lot of info about.

I don't believe the friends should be at blame either. I guarantee the friends were drinking to and it isn't their job to babysit her. I can't believe that her friends would just leave her with some random guy-something is missing.

I have a friend that drinks and I hate to go out from her because her drunk behavior inteefers with my time. A number of times I stopped he from going off with some random guy but she gives me grief for it. The last time her and I went out we almost had a fight because I tried to stop from getting into some guy car while she was drunk. I stopped going out with her after that incident because I can't control her especially while she is drunk.

So blaming the friends is wrong especially when you don't know what exactly down.

This is the last post I put on this thread, because the excuses are just rampant!

1. Wearing a skimpy outfit and drinking too much are not anywhere near the same thing. I get what you are saying, and as a former police officer it pisses me off that you put seem to be putting me in the category of "blame the victim" not the suspect...

2. Problems with handling alcohol go on the person...most people have problems with alcohol if they LET IT get the best of them. Calling someone an alcoholic because they have a low tolerance and don't know how to handle that is like calling a person a retard because they lack a lot of intellegence or are extremely slow in picking things up. I am sick of this society being so quick to say, "Aww..you poor thing, you must have a disease..that is why you act the way you do!" Get off your a$$, realize your actions and fix them.

3. The problem with the OP's girlfriend, or whatever the hell she is stems from her lack of self control, period. Maybe she is an alcoholic, I don't know...don't have enough information.

As far as giving consent when drunk, I would think that everytime I had drunk sex with my girlfriend, it would be classified as rape in your eyes.

I think there is a lot more to the story than meets the eye here. I would love to talk to the OP's girl so we could get a clear picture, as ANYTIME a person sleeps with 3 different strangers, regardless of intoxication level, there are bigger problems that need to be laid on the table. I am not trying to pick a fight, and I respect others' opinions. All in all, I just think all of us have been quick to pull the triger on something we don't have a lot of info about.

1. But that is exactly what you ARE doing.

2. Someone who gets "stone drunk" 3 times in a little over a year (and we don't know how many more times, we just know about the times when she had sex with someone other guy) is a strong sign of being an alcoholic.

3. Yes a lack of self control is a major part of her problem. But I will say it again, the promiscuity is a symptom of the alcoholism. Deal with the alcoholism and I believe the promiscuity will go away.

Just because someone gets "stone drunk" does NOT give them the excuse to cheat. Why would you settle for that excuse?

If she got stone drunk and shot someone, the law wouldn't care.

Neither should you.

I don't believe the friends should be at blame either. I gurantee the friends were drinking to and it isn't their job to babysit her. I can't believe that her friends would just leave her with some random guy-something is missing.

So blaming the friends is wrong especially when you don't know what exactly down.

Whether something is missing or not, we have only the OP's story to go by. So we have to deal with as he tells it. And yes, girlfriends who let a friend get that drunk are enablers. And girlfriends that let a friend get that drunk and then leave her alone are not true friends.

I'm not blaming the girlfriends for her having sex, but I can and do blame them for enabling the situation.

I see all sides here.

I've been reluctant to join in the discussion, but I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents, minus tax.

Alcoholism is a possibility, but I have to agree with KC, we don't have enough info to make that diagnosis.

Is it rape if a woman is intoxicated and a guy takes advantage of that? I have two opinions on this. If she's drunk to the point where she's passed out, cannot give consent, then yes, I believe it's rape. If she's just too drunk to stop herself, but consents, then no, I don't think that qualifies as rape.

Alcohol makes you do stupid things, it lowers you inhibitions, makes you do things you wouldn't normally do but probably really want to.

If this had happened once, I'd say, okay, bad choice, you probably shouldn't drink, you shouldn't put yourself in a situation like this again and I'd tell the OP to go with his heart, work through the relationship if that's what he wanted, which he does.

But, this has happened 3 times now, that he knows of. Alcoholic or not, she's not in a place where she can commit to a relationship, that much is very clear.

Either way, she needs help, maybe with alcoholism, or sex addiction, or just plain lack of morals.

If it were me I'd pack my bags and leave. She needs to deal with this baggage, whatever it is, but how many times is the OP supposed to forgive and forget? How many more times in the future will he be put in the position? I'd bet this won't be the last "I got drunk and slept with a random guy" episode she has.

2. Someone who gets "stone drunk" 3 times in a little over a year (and we don't know how many more times, we just know about the times when she had sex with someone other guy) is a strong sign of being an alcoholic.
.. I'm really curious as to where do you get your information. Drinking to get drunk three times in over a year isn't excessive at all. I bet the Penguins organization has been stone drunk since Friday night.

When I think of intoxicated rape I think of the last scene in Kids, where Casper has sex with that girl who took way too much mescaline. She couldn't even speak, that is rape and anyone with a conscience wouldn't do that.

Anyway, I stand by what I said, __Me__, leave her before she leaves you.

I think there is a lot more to the story than meets the eye here. I would love to talk to the OP's girl so we could get a clear picture, as ANYTIME a person sleeps with 3 different strangers, regardless of intoxication level, there are bigger problems that need to be laid on the table. I am not trying to pick a fight, and I respect others' opinions. All in all, I just think all of us have been quick to pull the trigger on something we don't have a lot of info about.
Alcoholism whether you believe it's a disease or not, is a symptom of a greater problem that needs to be addressed. Your right, there is a lot more to this story. Sadly they can't get help for themselves until they really want it. The OP rewards this by forgiving, because he doesn't know better, and needs some education as to his role of being with a drunk. He needs to leave, and let her fall flat on her face in the gutter, and pay the consequences of their actions. Just my honest opinion.

All you can do with a drunk, is protect yourself from their behavior.

All you can do with a drunk, is protect yourself from their behavior.

I think this is key for the OP. It really doesn't matter what the reason, whether it's a symptom. This girl has issues to deal with.

This relationship is young.

The OP is young.

She needs counseling of some sort.

It's his choice, to allow/tolerate the behavior, but it is not in his best interest. He clearly isn't interested in what's right or wrong, he will continue this until her problems destroy him as well.

...? I'm really curious as to where do you get your information. Drinking to get drunk three times in over a year isn't excessive at all.

I will admit that I have no specifc reference to cite here. But "drinking to get drunk" is clearly a sign of alcoholism. One drinks because they like the taste and maybe the buzz. Most people drink as part of a social occasion. But I don't think anyone drinks for the specific purpose of getting drunk, unless they are an alcoholic.

As for the Penguins, I doubt if you would win your bet. Maybe a few of them did get stone drunk on Friday, but I doubt lasted past the next day.

I will admit that I have no specifc reference to cite here. But "drinking to get drunk" is clearly a sign of alcoholism. One drinks because they like the taste and maybe the buzz. Most people drink as part of a social occassion. But I don't think anyone drinks for the specific purpose of getting drunk, unless they are an alcoholic.

As for the Penguins, I doubt if you would win your bet. Maybe a few of them did get stone drunk on Friday, but I doubt lasted past the next day.

Is this my own personal intervention? Are you trying to convince me that I have a drinking problem. I have never drank for the taste, I only drink until the room is spinning and I am feeling 'oh so good.' :eek:

I have been drunk once in my life and the only reason I am aware of it is because I was at a resort for New Years Eve and I drove the other couple we were with back to their room, dropping them off right at the door. The problem was that the road did not go to their door. Nor do I recall doing so. (Note I was not driving on public roads only within the resort). They tell me I was not driving erratically I just drove over the edge of the parking lot right up to their room.

So yes, I believe anyone who drinks until the room is spinning does have a problem. How serious that problem is depends on how frequently they do this and under what conditions.

Let me add that this is my own opinion. I would be interested to hear from someone who is an Alanon or AA counselor or maybe a medical professional as to what they say.

My partner doesn't drink and to him, anyone who ever does is an alcoholic or at the very least has a serious problem. I think that if you don't understand or appreciate drinking then it is difficult to relate. I drink about once every three-four months, but I will get drunk. That isn't the factor that defines an alcoholic. Those factors have so much more to do with the choices you make and the price(s) you are willing to pay for alcohol, then the fact that you enjoy getting drunk.

Having a good time (and drinking is a good time to some people) doesn't make you an alcoholic. I think you are defining on a very strict scale to weigh everyone who enjoys getting drunk as an alcoholic.

So here's what I thought after reading your post, and I don't know the whole story, but I think she may be trying to get you to break up with her. That's just the feeling I get after reading everything on here. There was another post that stood out to me on here, that maybe she wasn't as drunk as she made herself out to be.

I used to drink quite a bit with friends at parties when I was in college, made poor choices, had sex with guys while I was drunk. I was still completely aware of the choices I made when I made them. I don't think that what she did was involuntary. It was just stupid.

But "drinking to get drunk" is clearly a sign of alcoholism... I have been drunk once in my life...
Well now it all makes sense, being as you've only been drunk once, you simply can't relate to those that do drink, because drinking to get drunk isn't a sign of alcoholism. Being drunk also doesn't make you completely unable to make reasonable decisions. A lot of people drink to get drunk and have a great time doing it, and to label all of them as alcoholics is really saying that no one is. Not to mention, it's also very judgmental.

What makes an alcoholic is when you know your drinking has gotten out of hand, when you consciously prioritize your days around how, when, and where you'll be getting your next drink, when you know it's ruining your life but you just can't or won't stop. Alcoholics aren't stupid, they know it's bad, but they keep doing it, that's why it's an addiction.

I agree with kctiger in that diagnoses are rampant these days, if you have one bad day you're clinically depressed, if you have drink more than someone thinks you should you have a drinking problem, if you smoke just forget it... no one likes you.


I was drunk. I was still completely aware of the choices I made when I made them. I don't think that what she did was involuntary. It was just stupid.
This alone should settle this whole dispute.

Well now it all makes sense, being as you've only been drunk once, you simply can't relate to those that do drink, because drinking to get drunk isn't a sign of alcoholism.

I've never climbed Mount Everest. Doesn't mean I can't relate to people who have. Again, I've stated my opinion based on things I have read, people I have spoken to, etc. I've seen nothing yet to make me reverse that opinion.

I've never climbed Mount Everest. Doesn't mean I can't relate to people who have. Again, I've stated my opinion based on things I have read, people I have spoken to, etc. I've seen nothing yet to make me reverse that opinion.

You don't have to change your opinion, but stating that everyone who enjoys getting drunk is an alcoholic, is condesending and judgemental, so know that personally - since I have an alcoholic for a mother and have grown up with what a true alcoholic is, I find it offensive to have to be thrown in that category. A 'black out' as is what you had, the only time you drank, is an alcoholic tendency, but it's not what drinking is like for most people. Most people will not 'black out' from a night of hitting the town.

I believe drunk or not, sleeping with another person is cheating. The only exception is rape, when you are forced to having sex. When you are drunk, you are not forced into anything if you're judgement is off but if someone pushes themselves on you then that is rape..

Even if one is drunk, and willing to have sex due to lack of judgement that is clearly not considered rape. And I believe if you are willing to have sex with someone and you're judgement is off, you are still willing although one may and that is considered cheating.

I've never climbed Mount Everest. Doesn't mean I can't relate to people who have. Again, I've stated my opinion based on things I have read, people I have spoken to, etc. I've seen nothing yet to make me reverse that opinion.
I see, it's going to be one of these conversations... all right, I give up.

At the very least you should refrain from stating your opinion on alcoholism because people will be offended, it hits pretty close to home for some.

I just saw my a buddy/ex-guitarist of my band this weekend that I haven't seen in years. I heard he had a drinking problem, but I didn't expect it to be as bad as it was. He was drunk when I first saw him, which was noon, by that time he had polished off a 750ml bottle of Jack Daniels like does every single day since three or more years ago. He was in college but got the heave-ho for academic performance (or lack thereof), best guitarist I've known to date... now he's just a loser, and most recently a junkie too. He was telling me how his own parents have, "given up on him", his dad told him those exact words. His roommates were telling me that they don't care what happens to him anymore so long as he still pays rent, so now, all he has going for him is my best friend, who, with his daughter, goes over the alcoholic's house every night after he gets home from work, taking time out of his own day just to keep him company so he'll have something other to do than drink; talk about a good friend. It sucks to see 'cause I want to help him but he just doesn't care. His parents, his roommates, his friends who are near him tried talking with him, helping him, taking away his booze, brought him to clinics, he's done rehab and all that stuff but he's still on the sauce. I think he was even arrested once. There's nothing we can do. It sucks. My alcoholic friend is 24 and my best friend is 23.

Even as I write this I don't know whether I should even care 'cause he doesn't.

I enjoy a drink once a day. I can tell you, I'm not an alcoholic. Of course denial is the first sign. ;)

Alcohol, like anything else, can be bad for you if not taken in moderation. If you find yourself drinking at breakfast, drinking at lunch and then continuing to drink the entire night and this is a daily occurrence, then yes, you probably are an alcoholic.

Even people that only drink occasionally can be labelled alcoholics if they don't know when to stop.

It's excess, that's the problem, that's when it's considered an addiction. If it affects your life, those around you, then you are most likely an alcoholic.

A little secret, and damnit I'm tired of telling the "this is my life" stories.

I drank a lot as a teen. I had serious issues, alcohol relaxed me, released my inhibitions. I'll be the first to say that it was a bad idea, but when you're young you don't realize it.

I did sleep with random guys because I had too much to drink and didn't really care. No, I wasn't raped by these guys, I consented. Was I in a state of mind to consent, well, I'll leave that to the jury. ;)

I still enjoy alcohol today, but not every day and only rarely do I feel the effects (usually when we're having a get together). Do I need alcohol? No. Do I count the hours until I can drink? No. Am I an alcoholic? No.

Crap. I also smoke.

I'll go sit in my corner now. ;)

I would be interested to hear from someone who is an Alanon or AA counselor or maybe a medical professional as to what they say.

Alcoholic- One who drinks, and it causes problems in his/her life. Doesn't matter how much, or how little.

Let's put this into perspective, shall we?

One of our long time members, the inspiration for my signature, is dying of liver failure because of alcoholism.

Scott, you know I adore you, but just because someone drinks, doesn't mean their an alcoholic.

For the OP, well, she has issues, but is alcoholism one of them? Not enough info, not enough to go by.

My take on it. She has something in her past that is making her act out this way. She doesn't seem to care that her actions are hurting the person she claims to love. Been there, done that, wrote the book.

Either way she needs help figuring out why she's doing what she does.

I'm not ready to label her, I don't have that right.

Alcoholic- One who drinks, and it causes problems in his/her life. Doesn't matter how much, or how little.

And it would seem that the OPs girlfriend fits that description, but is it really the alcohol?

I'm still not buying it.

This just feels like something so much deeper then mere alcohol.

Tecniqually I got this off from dictionary.com

Al⋅co⋅hol⋅ic  /ˌælkəˈhɔlɪk, -ˈhɒlɪk/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [al-kuh-haw-lik, -hol-ik] Show IPA
–adjective 1. of, pertaining to, or of the nature of alcohol.
2. containing or using alcohol.
3. caused by alcohol.
4. suffering from alcoholism.
5. preserved in alcohol.

Notice number 2. Anyone who uses alcohol is techniqually an alcoholic.

Off the dictionary itself. Depends how you mean it pretty much.

Look up virginity, that's misleading too.

Just saying.

Look up virginity, that's misleading too.

Just sayin.

Virginity can be multiple meanings depending on how you use it, so does alcoholic. It is off the dictionary and it is official in the english language.

Im just saying that it would be more understandable if there is a common interpretation of the word "alcoholic" people refer to here or if there is a better word that suits it better.

Okay, we're losing track here. Guilty!

The bottom line is that the OP asked for input, but really doesn't want it.

The title of the thread should have been "I want someone to tell me I'm right".

Now we're arguing amongst ourselves and the OP has checked out of the entire equation.

It is what it is, the balls in his court now.

You don't have to change your opinion, but stating that everyone who enjoys getting drunk is an alcoholic, is condesending and judgemental, so know that personally - since I have an alcoholic for a mother and have grown up with what a true alcoholic is, I find it offensive to have to be thrown in that catagory. A 'black out' as is what you had, the only time you drank, is an alcoholic tendency, but it's not what drinking is like for most people. Most people will not 'black out' from a night of hitting the town.

Pertaining the portion highlighted in blue. Did I ever say that? I don't think so. What I said was that it "is a strong sign of being an alcoholic." I am perfectly aware that different people react to or enjoy alcohol in different ways. So yes it would be presumptuous for me to make such a blanket statement, which is why I didn't. I do think that it is a warning sign, but I also think that there are other factors that could mitigate it.

I will add that I am, generally, very careful in my choice of words. So I will caution anyone to read what I actually say not what they think I said.

Tecniqually i got this off from dictionary.com

Notice number 2. Anyone who uses alcohol is techniqually an alcoholic.

No because #2 refers to a different form of the word.

Scott, you know I adore you, but just because someone drinks, doesn't mean their an alcoholic.


And I never said that either. Anymore than everyone over 7 feet tall is a basketball player. But there are good odds that they might be.

I think we can all agree this is a touchy subject.

I don't want to get into a debate with people that I respect and admire. Scott, KC, others.

Like I said, I see both sides.

I really don't think we have enough info either way to make a decision. Also, the OP doesn't seem to care what we think.

I say we call it quits, shake hands, grab a donut and coffee and move on.

But that's just me. ;)

No because #2 refers to a different form of the word.

Even if that's the case, its part of the english language. "Using Alcohol" can be interpreted in many ways but nevertheless it does mean what I meant regardless. The english words say so. It might not be what you see it as, but they have individual definitions and we abide to those definitions so everybody can understand each other. Its like saying you can pick any word and attach any meaning to that word but no one will know what you're talking about.

And you will never, ever will be in a position to see or experience anything that will allow you to even consider reversing your opinion because you're closing your mind off by basing your beliefs on other people's thoughts/experiences. You're just mechanically repeating what you've "heard" and passing it off as a legitimate response. The problem with that is you have no credibility.

Nothing beats first-hand knowledge/experience. I'll take Neil Armstrong's description of the moon over some guy who owns a telescope any day. Only because he's been there.

First, you obviously don't know me very well. I am the least close minded person you may ever meet. Your example shows how wrong you are. I too would take Neil Armstrong's description over someone with a telescope. Since you also have no idea what I have read or who I have spoken to, you have no idea how authoritative my sources are. Finally, I am not passing off anything as a legitimate response. I have make sure to make it clear that these are my opinions formed my my experiences. This leaves the reader to decide for themselves what weight to put on what I post.

As to my credibility, I stand on my record on this site. I believe that I have established a rather high level of credibility.

Ok guys, let's all calm down here. We can agree to disagree. We all have different views on things here, we are all well respected by each other(at least on my end, I hold you all in the deepest respect category I have) and we aren't always going to agree on subjects. Scott, along with everyone else is entitled to their opinion. I see his side, while also seeing the other side. If she has a drinking problem, she needs help, but I can't say for sure she does have a drinking problem. I know she does have a problem with infidelity which is evident.

The drunk/rape sex is a touchy subject because it's all up to interpretation in which a jury would have to be used to decide. If she wasn't aware of what's going on, then it's rape. But if she uses the drunk excuse because she doesn't want to lose him, then it's not rape.

Okay. I think the voice of reason has to step in, and I find it highly amusing that it's me.

If you all want to talk about alcoholism, I suggest a new thread.

This thread has gone into the crapper and I think it's time to call it quits.

The OP hasn't been back for a while, he doesn't want an answer, he's just looking for someone to agree with him.

I think it's time for everyone to breath and realize that our opinions aren't the same, but it's okay to disagree. No one is going to change anyone's mind about their beliefs. So, let's all back off, go to the humor and comedy section, have a laugh and leave this alone.

It's done. Again, I'm surprised I'm the one that sees it, because I'm usually the first one to put up my fists and fight, but I respect everyone and their opinions and I don't want to see his get out of control.

Of course you don't have to listen, but please think about it.

Me, I'm unsubscribing to this thread.

Good luck all.

Yeah in his state of mind he is going to continue making excuses for her until he gets to the point he doesn't want to put up with it any more.

You just said again that your opinion is based on your experiences, of which you only have the one time being drunk...

But drinking and alcoholism after only being drunk once in your life? No way! And this opinion is not just mine, but also echoes most of the people on this thread. I don't have to know you at all to make this claim. I can't and won't speak on any subject authoritatively (as you have) without at least knowing it's inner workings. I understand that you have strong feelings based on what you've heard and read. Still, it means nothing because you haven't lived it. These aren't cold, hard facts we're discussing here that can be backed up by anecdotal and second-hand experience. Instead, these are subjective experiences and responses to the experiences you would have to live through in order for yourself to gain that credibility. I haven't given birth to a child and I never will be able to, so I would never so callously open my mouth to a woman and judge her experiences and try to relate to them at all.

It's not a personal attack directed towards you or what you think. You're just painting yourself into a corner.

Let me clarify, when I said experience in that previous post, I was not only referring to personal experience. I was also referring to my experiences with people I know who were alcoholics. And my experiences dealing with people who are authoritative on the subject.

And I disagree that one has to personally experience something to be able to opine on the subject. You may decide that my limited personal experience negates my opinion and that is your right. But I know many people who can and do speak authoritatively on subjects that they do not have personal experience on. Its very possible to do.

I have to agree I never got high and have only been drunk twice in my life but I have been through the whole spectrum of my alcoholic drug addict friends sagas and I can all too well agree 100% with what Scott said. You do not have to personally have been through something to know what it is like. You may not understand the full impact of emotions but you do know enough to understand it.

Just two days ago, she cheated on me for the third time, but before passing judgment, please read ahead. The first time was like two days after us officially dating, and she was stone drunk. The second time, was 6 months after us going out, and she was with her friends, again stone drunk, but her other "friends" (who are females) wandered off, and left her with another guy (who was sober). Then just recently she was with those same friends, and yes, unfortunately stone drunk, and ended up involuntarily cheating. I know alcohol is not a good excuse, and she actually isn't trying to use it as one

She gets drunk, and cheats. Those are the facts as he sees them. Whether it intentional, or an excuse its bad behavior. Its causes problems.





Originally Posted by talaniman https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/amhd_imgs/buttons/viewpost.gif (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/relationships/outside-input-needed-365263-6.html#post1800762)
Alcoholic- One who drinks, and it causes problems in his/her life. Doesn't matter how much, or how little.
And it would seem that the OP's girlfriend fits that description, but is it really the alcohol?

I'm still not buying it.

This just feels like something so much deeper then mere alcohol.


I agree, as its been my own experience as a sponsor, that the drinking is but a symptom of a deeper problem that has to be addressed. But only by dealing with what they acknowledge as a problem can they get to the root causes of the problem.

For sure we can call anyone anything you want, but unless someone sees drinking as a problem in there life, and wants to make a change, they will not get help or change.

The OP doesn't know how to help, and accepts the bad behavior, and I hope he protects himself, and gets some help himself, as its possible with out addressing the root cause of the problem, she will repeat the pattern of drinking, and cheating. That's why he needs to know the facts (Alanon), so he can help her, and protect himself.

As a side note, the first thing many people do during early recovery, is tell others that they can't drink.

Buddy, the reputations you and I or anyone for that matter have on this site mean absolutely nothing in relation to the topic because what we post here is not subject to any formal criteria. .
Then why attack someone for their opinion, which you seem to knock often? Just stick with your own, and let others have theirs. We don't have to agree.

If she doesn't want help, then there isn't much anyone can do for her. Here are the facts as I see it:
1. She thinks better when she is sober.
2. When she is sober, she wants to break up with her fiancée.
3. When she drinks, she has sex with other men.
I really don't think this woman wants to be anyone's fiancée.
We don't really know if these two met when she was stoned drunk.

But I don't think anyone drinks for the specific purpose of getting drunk, unless they are an alcoholic.

This was what I was referring to earlier, your opinion is respected but I find that this comment is painful, but that is my personal experience with the matter.

I do drink with the intention of getting drunk, not for the taste and just a buzz, but that is me personally. I was just offended that the correlation had to mean that I am an alcoholic.

This was what I was referring to earlier, your opinion is respected but I find that this comment is painful, but that is my personal experience with the matter.

I do drink with the intention of getting drunk, not for the taste and just a buzz, but that is me personally. I was just offended that the correlation had to mean that I am an alcoholic.

OK, I can see where you are coming from. I respect you enough to accept that I could be wrong about that. In my opinion the aftermath of getting drunk (deadaches, nausea, etc) would seem to negate any advantages of doing so, But there maybe something I'm missing here, so I'll accept your statement.