My employer and I agreed on a net amount as my salary. So I wonder, when tithing my 10% to the church, should it be calculated from my gross or net income?

The Church teaches from the gross.
Some teach that tithing was an old testament bondage and Christians are to give from their heart so the 10% does not count.

One thing I noticed when I read about tithing and giving is that the tithing of the old testament was set up so that every third year the money was given to widows and the poor and those with a need. The Church is following the 10% part but I don't see any Church giving the full third year tithe out to the widows, poor and those with a need.

"every man shall give as he is able"
"the Lord loves a cheerful giver"
As Christians, we are not under Law to tithe. But in Christ, the Law of Love says we must be more righteous than the pharisees. So 10% is a good start if you want to at least fulfill the Law.
If you tithe on your net, that is fine, but you must also tithe on any money back in tax returns.
If you tithe on your gross, that is fine also.
My wife is a nurse with a salary and we tithe on her gross.
I am a realtor (commission only)and we tithe on my net.
Tithe means tenth, but you will be blessed if you cheerfully and thankfully give more than 10% to whomever God leads you to give.
The jews actually gave closer to 30% when you count the tithe as the first fruits. Then there were the grain offerings, the wave offerings, the animal offerings, etc.
That's why many churches refer to it as "bringing your tithes and offerings"

Earlier I used to tithe from my net income. I was very happy doing. Then one day a pastor said that we should tithe from gross because that's what we get. I started doing that. Honestly, I found it hard to keep up with my budget. I am still doing tithing on my gross, but my paycheque from weekend job goes to the account of tithing.

So I don't know what to say. Yet God has never let me beg for food to anybody. ALL THANKS AND PRAISES TO LORD JESUS!

Yeah I don't get the 'from the gross' because that is what the government gets NOT us.
Then as homesell said pay the tithe on the tax return when you get it.

There is no "should" for us since we are not under any law of tithing.

Start with whichever is easier and you will prove to yourself that either tithing affirms God's grace and providence for you. You will most likely eventually go to whichever tithing you thought was more difficult; when you give from your heart out of faith in God's love.

2 Co 9:6-11

6 Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give , not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. 9 As it is written:

"He has scattered abroad his gifts to the poor;
his righteousness endures forever."

10 Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will also supply and increase your store of seed and will enlarge the harvest of your righteousness. 11 You will be made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God.
NIV

"every man shall give as he is able"
"the Lord loves a cheerful giver"
As Christians, we are not under Law to tithe. But in Christ, the Law of Love says we must be more righteous than the pharisees. So 10% is a good start if you want to at least fulfill the Law.
If you tithe on your net, that is fine, but you must also tithe on any money back in tax returns.
If you tithe on your gross, that is fine also.
My wife is a nurse with a salary and we tithe on her gross.
I am a realtor (commission only)and we tithe on my net.
Tithe means tenth, but you will be blessed if you cheerfully and thankfully give more than 10% to whomever God leads you to give.
The jews actually gave closer to 30% when you count the tithe as the first fruits. Then there were the grain offerings, the wave offerings, the animal offerings, etc.
Thats why many churches refer to it as "bringing your tithes and offerings"


OH Jeff you are so wrong here. The tithe is also taught in the NT in LK 18:12 and Heb 7:8. Even though it was first mentioned in LV 27:30 it is taught throughout scriptures. The tithe is 10% and 10% only. Anything you give above that is considered an offering.
And to answer the OP's question, you always tithe from the GROSS. God gives you a gross salary. From that there are taxes, insurance, and 401K deductions. But you still earned a Gross salary.
Hope that clears things up.

Jeff, if you are tithing on your net, then you are cheating God!

The way we did it was we stared tything from our net income until we could afford to tithe from our gross income. It took us a little while to do that but we eventually were able and are still able to tithe from our gross. You have to remember that you don't want to lose out on stuff you need like food, shelter and so on... so don't go broke trying to please God but do eventually get to where you can tithe from your gross

450donn,
Thanks for correcting me when I am not wrong. First, I am not under law. I give cheerfully much more than the tithe. Second, apparently you don't know what not being paid a salary means, as I stated commission only for what I earn. I have a business and it costs money to run that business. Most businesses barely make 10 percent profit after all expenses of doing business are paid. Thirdly, what I give is none of your business and it's not up to one believer to tell another how much they should give since it's between God and the person. If you are giving money to God as if under compulsion (because of what some greedy or needy preacher told you)rather than willingly, cheerfully and out of loving gratitude stemming from your relationship with the Lord, well, that's between you and God. The only way I've been cheating God is I can never repay the lavish gift he has poured out on me by giving me His son who loved me and died for me. Let me know how telling other people that aren't under the Law, that they aren't keeping the Law, works out for you.

homesell
Man, I am sorry that you do not understand the meaning or spirit of the tithe. I was not trying to condemn you, but rather simply point out the error of your method of tithing. The tithe is 10% of your gross, throughout scripture that is how it is taught. If you choose to tithe then you need to tithe on the gross earnings not the net earnings. You tithe on the gross of your wife's income, but on the net of your income. What is the difference there?? Income is income no matter how it is earned. I have been unemployed for nearly six months and collecting unemployment insurance. So based on your assumption I should not be paying tithe on that income since I already paid tithe on it when I worked for 40 years. Before you go off half cocked and accusing me of things, I feel that you need to speak to your pastor about the meaning of the tithe and how it is suppose to be given.

Where in the Bible does it show gross vs net and the husbands being gross and the wife's being net?

It says render to Cszar what is Cszar's so to me what the government TAKES is Cszars NOT mine. Then IF I get it back at income tax time it is time to tithe that portion.

The tithe is a spiritual concept that christ used to point out that the pharisees took too literally in word and not literally enough in principle. Those who called for the temple tax came to peter and asked if Jesus would pay. Peter spoke out of turn and said yes,and went to tell Jesus what transpired. Jesus asked him who it was that paid taxes to an conquering king,whether it was a child of that king or the citizens of the country being occupied? Peter rightly answered that is was conquered citizens who paid the tax,and jesus replied that they as children of the king need not pay also,except that they would not offend the jews,peter was instructed to go fishin' and find a coin. Awsome story in the gospel! The coin peter found paid up for the group! Here is the true tithe, 10 lepers healed,only one returns to give Christ glory. Also forgiveness 70x7. This is not a multiplication problem,it is a proportionate ratio. What % of 70 is 7? The principle is forgive the other 90% as well. You really want to give to the standard Christ demands take all you have sell it give it to the poor and live your life according to his principles. He never commanded 10% of anything. Imagine if he had only 10%-30% healed anyone or saved us. Who would provide the difference. Give to the Church and the Gov. what is reasonable,the rest belongs to God.

The difference isn't because I'm a man and my wife is a woman. The difference is that she is on salary and I own my own business.
The tithe is on the increase(though I can't recall the exact scripture.) If I buy 1,000 items wholesale for $20,000. And then sell the items for $40,000. I didn't make an increase of $40,000. But of $20,000.
Regardless, of all this, I give as the Lord leads and instructs. I'm not under Law(and if you include tithing as some law we must keep, you need to include the 613 other Laws the Jews added) and it seems you all have totally missed the points I made concerning cheerful, grateful giving and that I do give way more than 10%. I am truly sorry if anyone was offended that I said it was OK to not tithe 10% of the gross or if they thought gross-net separation was a male-female thing. I tend to forget people just don't get it about Grace.
No Laws, rules, regulations, rituals... none of these bring us one step closer to God.(tho' sometimes they make us feel like we are closer) God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, the three persons in the one God is inside of us and we are in Christ... How close is that?

Jeff,
Based on your example above you made a GROSS profit of $20,000. Not 40K. So then the tithe should be given on the 20K. Now, if you give above that tithe on the 20K or 2k then that is an offering, not a tithe. Now, if the cost of doing business to buy and sell those items in your example cost you lets say 5K then you have a net profit of 15K. But according to all the teachings on tithing that I have ever heard you own the tithe on the 20K. That is your gross profit.
Same with your wife's income. If she earns 50K a year for example. Has deductions for taxes and insurance of 20K a year. Do you still tithe on the 50K or the 30K? On the 50k of course.
Based on where this discussion has taken us it is clear that many churches do not teach tithing. Shame really as it opens up a whole world of faith that is not available to those that do not understand the tithe principal.

Homesell I wasn't questioning. I understand 100% what you are saying and that the formula you use is what God put on your heart.
I want to know from the ones that say that gross is the way the Bible says where do they get that from?

As far as unemployment, I do believe you pay more into it than what you receive when you collect it so to be technical you could deduct the percentage you paid into it from what you receive.

No help,
I hope this helps.
There are many people that ask about the definition of the tithe compared other types of gifts. The tithe definition in its broadest sense means a tenth of one's increase - Deuteronomy 14:22. That is the broadest definition of tithe that is accepted by most of the population. There are even more defined meanings of tithing out there. For instance some would say that the definition of the tithe by nature, goes to your local church, and is taken off your gross income. This is because the tithe was delivered to the local storehouse in the Old Testament - Malachi 3:10, and in Proverbs 3:9 we are to honor the Lord with the first fruits of our increase.

Scholars and theologians constantly debate about the tithe definition. Mainly because the tithe's function was prescribed in detail in the old testament, defined for the nation of Israel, and was not done so for the Church in the NT. There seems to be many holes and many opportunities for personal interpretation of how we should prescribe the tithe into the New Testament Church.

The definition of the tithe was very simple and plainly laid out for Israel. They were to gather their harvest and count the tithe out from what they've gathered. For instance, if you had 100 apples, you must count them out from one-to-ten, and the tenth one you set aside for the Lord - Leviticus 27:32. As is stated in the previous verse, it did not matter if that tenth one was bruised or under-sized, you still set it aside. Also, you set the tenth one aside, not the first one aside.

There were other rules under the tithe definition. First, the tithe generally went to the Levites, and in turn the levites gave a tenth of their tenth to the priestly line for the work of the temple. Next, there were generally three different “types” of the tithe. First, was the poor tithe - Deuteronomy 26:12. Second, was the feast tithe - Deuteronomy 14:22-23. Third, was the Levitical tithe - Numbers 18:24. Practically, the tithe included the poor and the Levites all the time, but those are generally how the tithe is categorized. The feast tithe was the most unique and was consumed by the whole nation of Israel as a feast celebration.

Most people argue that the total amount of tithes given by Israel equaled over 23%. I don't follow that logic, just for the simple fact that when the bible says 10% of all your increase, generally it means just 10%. Maybe that's too simple minded? I don't know? Also genealogy and numbering records have shown that a 10% gift from the whole nation of Israel was plenty enough to take care of the small tribe of Levi.

Now that we got an abridged version of the tithe definition for Israel, what about the definition for the Church? Truthfully, you are asking the wrong person. I feel the definition of the tithe for the church is far more complicated than the IRS tax code. Like I said above, the definition of tithing for the New Testament Church has many holes and opportunities for personal interpretation. I'm of the persuasion that it doesn't belong in the Spirit-led Church. I know.. . I know what you're saying, how can the Church operate without the tithe? Well, first of all, the Church is not the nation of Israel so it has no need to operate under Israel's strict code of laws. The Church operates under the capacity of the Holy Spirit in tune with the principles of God's word. Yes, God's word said don't eat unclean meat, circumcise your sons, tithe of your increase.. . And so forth, but I said the Holy Spirit is in tune with the PRINCIPLES of God's word.

Scholars and theologians debate so that takes us back to square one since it is not specified in the Bible that 10% of gross income should be tithed to the church.

450donn
You say I accused you. Of what? You are the one that accused me of cheating God. How come He never told me that? You talk like I've never been in churches where tithing has been taught. Of course I have - almost everyone has. Just cause some churches are constantly asking for money doesn't mean it's right to tithe. If we are going to insist someone MUST tithe(gross or net) then we might as well insist on circumcision and worshipping on the Sabbath because these were definitely old testament principles as well.
In Acts 15:20 some Judeaizers(those that insist on keeping the Old testament Law) were trying to lay the guilt trip on the new gentile believers, telling them they had to follow the Law. The apostle James at the council of Jerusalem states exactly what they were going to ask the gentile believers to do. No circumcision required, no Sabbath keeping required, no tithing required. I wonder how you say I don't understand the "spirit" of the tithe principle when that is exactly what I told you I was doing rather than the letter.

Jeff,
Your right I should not be laying a guilt trip on you for your views of tithing. I apologize.

450donn,
I apologise also to you.I know I was harsh.

I must agree with Donn.
The proper tithe is 10% of our gross if not more.
Much is expected from those who have been given much,
Peace and kindness,
Fred

So you're saying... I should pay 10% of my overall gross income before costs incurred?

I own a small fast food restaurant. On a decent week, I'll make $20k gross. So I should tithe $2k a week?

Isneezefunny,
That example has already been used. Pray about it. You cannot outgive God. Read the book "The Treasure Principal" by Randy Alcorn. That book had a deep effect on me and my relationship with God and money. Sorry about a severely impaired presence for the next nine years that you mentioned. May God go with you by being in you.

In my opinion, neither. Give from a willing heart, not a calculated percentage.

ISneezeFunny ,
Yes that is what you should give.
God, IN HIS WAY will return that and much more.
Try it for awhile and see.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[


Jeff, if you are tithing on your net, then you are cheating God!
[/QUOTE]
Oh Donn, you are so WRONG on this.

Number one, you don't know Jeff's relationship with his god and to make such a statement is audacious. Tithing doe3sn,t have to be about money only. Our time and talent given in the glory of God is our gift to God too. How do you measure that? He may well be giving much more than 10% between his money, time, and talent.

Number Two When I was little, I got 30 cents a week for allowance. In Sunday school, I used to put a nickel in the offering plate. There was a girl in my class ( look down you nose Cindy Terry) that made fun of me because my offering was so small. Her father gave her money to drop in the plate and it was much more than mine. I explained to her that I made 30 cents/week. That 10% would be 3 cents and that I was actually giving more than 10%. I felt embarrassed and stupid because of her judgment. I tell this story just to point out AGAIN one of the many reasons, I associate the term christian with hypocrite. I was going over and above what the literal word of the bible required and it still was looked down on by other christians. It made me think that christians hearts were not always in the right place and that our biggest gift to God would be to behave in a way that was "Christ like". Tithing is not all about money. To say he is cheating God sounds like something that Cindy person would say.

No help,
I hope this helps.
There are many people that ask about the definition of the tithe compared other types of gifts. The tithe definition in its broadest sense means a tenth of one’s increase - Deuteronomy 14:22. That is the broadest definition of tithe that is accepted by most of the population. There are even more defined meanings of tithing out there. For instance some would say that the definition of the tithe by nature, goes to your local church, and is taken off of your gross income. This is because the tithe was delivered to the local storehouse in the Old Testament - Malachi 3:10, and in Proverbs 3:9 we are to honor the Lord with the first fruits of our increase.

Scholars and theologians constantly debate about the tithe definition. Mainly because the tithe’s function was prescribed in detail in the old testament, defined for the nation of Israel, and was not done so for the Church in the NT. There seems to be many holes and many opportunities for personal interpretation of how we should prescribe the tithe into the New Testament Church.

The definition of the tithe was very simple and plainly laid out for Israel. They were to gather their harvest and count the tithe out from what they’ve gathered. For instance, if you had 100 apples, you must count them out from one-to-ten, and the tenth one you set aside for the Lord - Leviticus 27:32. As is stated in the previous verse, it did not matter if that tenth one was bruised or under-sized, you still set it aside. Also, you set the tenth one aside, not the first one aside.

There were other rules under the tithe definition. First, the tithe generally went to the Levites, and in turn the levites gave a tenth of their tenth to the priestly line for the work of the temple. Next, there were generally three different “types” of the tithe. first, was the poor tithe - Deuteronomy 26:12. Second, was the feast tithe - Deuteronomy 14:22-23. Third, was the Levitical tithe - Numbers 18:24. Practically, the tithe included the poor and the Levites all the time, but those are generally how the tithe is categorized. The feast tithe was the most unique and was consumed by the whole nation of Israel as a feast celebration.

Most people argue that the total amount of tithes given by Israel equaled over 23%. I don’t follow that logic, just for the simple fact that when the bible says 10% of all your increase, generally it means just 10%. Maybe that’s too simple minded? I don’t know? Also genealogy and numbering records have shown that a 10% gift from the whole nation of Israel was plenty enough to take care of the small tribe of Levi.

Now that we got an abridged version of the tithe definition for Israel, what about the definition for the Church? Truthfully, you are asking the wrong person. I feel the definition of the tithe for the church is far more complicated than the IRS tax code. Like i said above, the definition of tithing for the New Testament Church has many holes and opportunities for personal interpretation. I’m of the persuasion that it doesn’t belong in the Spirit-led Church. I know. . . I know what you’re saying, how can the Church operate without the tithe? Well, first of all, the Church is not the nation of Israel so it has no need to operate under Israel’s strict code of laws. The Church operates under the capacity of the Holy Spirit in tune with the principles of God’s word. Yes, God’s word said don’t eat unclean meat, circumcise your sons, tithe of your increase . . . and so forth, but i said the Holy Spirit is in tune with the PRINCIPLES of God’s word.


I say you like to make things complicated for the fun of it. Well, fun for you. All this is ridiculous. Give in accordance with YOUR heart and you don't need to concern yourself with anyone else's heart. That is between them and God.

cozyk,
You have made a good point.
I have given 10 % of my gross, plus time and effort to the Church.
If I had given less money in the long run total of all efforts I still may have given more than 10%.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Are we all in agreement that that's between you and God? I think so. Though personally I will tithe from gross. Because I knew that from before, only that when my salary increased, I felt like that's too much to give, but I knew deep inside what God is telling me. But from what I have grown up knowing, is that its 10% gross. I am not saying that this is the right amount but for me, this is. But reading from all the posts you guys have sent, I felt like we are confusing three things: tithe, offering and First Fruits. Can somebody really diferentiate the three in a very simple way please.

As simple as I can make it without elaboration or explanation.

Tithe -10%
Offering - Everything given over and
Above a tithe.
Firstfruits -The best of what God has
Given you as soon as you
Receive it.

scholars and theologians debate so that takes us back to square one since it is not specified in the Bible that 10% of gross income should be tithed to the church.

Sapphire, I don't know where people get that either. Even though we are not under the law to tithe but to give "as every man has purposed in his heart" I believe it says, the "increase" to me is exactly that. Whatever I net after taxes seems to be the increase to me. But since it isn't about a calculated percentage it's irrelevant in my opinion.

I am probably going to get hammered for this but I don't tithe on net or gross. I am in the midst of a total money makeover and since I have debt I am a slave to the debtor. Until I pay off that debt, the money doesn't belong to me to give, it belongs to the lender. I am paying off my debt quickly so I can the ability to give much more to the church later.

Homesell, 450donn, nohelp, et al - this is my response to a similar post which included comments addressed to other members, so disregard those personal responses. Homesell, I totally agree with your earlier posts about grace and giving.

-------Previous post--------------

"I'd like to piggy-back on what TITHE and REVDRGADE have said.

First, with respect to TITHE's comments, I agree. The tithe outlined in the Old Testament law included a lawful, obligatory giving to the priesthood that God had ordained through the covenant. People were required to give a “tithe” to priests much in the same manner that we are required to pay our taxes. The tithe in Israel consisted of a portion of people's wealth set aside for the priests, who were required to officiate in the performance of their priestly duties and could not make a living outside of this office to which they were called by God. Under the Old Testament law the Israelites lived under a theocracy where God was their king and the priests were the mediators between the people and God. The priests collected the tithes and used the money for various things like dividing the money for the Levites themselves, the various feasts, and for the poor. However, the amount that the people were obligated to pay amounted to more than 10% but was probably closer to something like 23% because it appears that God had divided up tithes into different categories to be taken at key times throughout the year.

However, a careful reading of the Old Testament sections concerning tithes will reveal that beyond what was required in the tithe, there was such a thing as a free-will offering. For this, there was no law. The people were required to pay their tithes for the sake of the Levites, the observances of the feasts and for the poor. The people were obligated to give these tithes under the covenant and I'm arguing that it is very similar to our personal income taxes that we pay today as well as the taxation that all were subject to under the Roman rule, including Jesus. But when it came to giving something to God out of personal thankfulness or a joyful or glad heart, God was not requiring a set amount. It was up to the individual whether he or she wanted to give at all and how much he or she wanted to give.

When we move to the New Testament, Paul's teaching on giving is linked to the idea of grace. First he says, "So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver.” If giving to God in the sense of a free-will offering were required, why would it be called free-will and why would Paul say that we should not give “out of necessity?” Not only that but he says “let each one give as he or she PURPOSES in his or her heart.” Paul is affirming that giving is entirely up to the individual believer and is not a requirement from God. The only time Paul ever commands us to give our money is in Romans 13:

“Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.”

My own sentiment is that tithing is predominately taught out of misunderstanding, greediness on the part of some, and distrust in the good heartnedness of God's people by those who are in authority (in other words, some in authority don't believe people will give freely so they compel them to give by teaching about tithing). If we give to God it should be because we want to from the goodness of our heart not because of guilt, a sense of obligation, or of peer-pressure. It is better to give nothing at all than to give from the wrong motives because God will not accept such an offering, “…for God loves a cheerful giver.”

Lastly, touching upon what Revdrgade said, if we give thinking that we will garner favor from God or worse—salvation—we have got to come to an understanding of who God is and what He desires from us. He doesn't need our money and He certainly won't be bought off. Salvation is something He gives of His own will not from being coerced in any way. That's an entirely different discussion but I thought I'd just mention this very briefly here.

As always Jakster, a very thoughtful comment. I have only one more comment to what you and everyone else has said.
Many seem to be under the misconception that Jesus came to fulfill the law, However in MT 5:17 it teaches us "Do not think that I came to abolish the law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say unto you, Until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the law until all is accomplished.
So based on that passage it appears to me that we are to still live under the Law. Jesus came and fulfill the Law, but he does not teach that we are to ignore the Law. Therefore tithing is still a biblical principal. So each at this point must understand the tithe and then decide what to do about that understanding. Personally, I have been unemployed for 5 months, my wife also lost her job. So here we sit with no income save for unemployment and I still tithe on that. Guess what? All of my bills are still being paid up in the same week they come in, I can still buy groceries to feed my family and put gas in my cars. So as far as I am concerned the tithe principal works.

papili,
Did you realize that your increase in salary was due to God's intent that you will be rewarded for tithing 10%?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

papili,
Did you realize that your increase in salary was due to God's intent that you will be rewarded for tithing 10%?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Or it could just be a coincidence.:rolleyes:

cozyk
Yes it could be either way.
I'd give God the credit anyway.
Fred

papili,
Did you realize that your increase in salary was due to God's intent that you will be rewarded for tithing 10%?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Yes, I know it's because of tithing. This is a personal testimony: a few years back, when money was tight, I would decide to spend on my tithe. Its not just me, but my family. And I tell you poverty stroke us left and right, food would lack, fare and basic needs. We would become sick one by one. This is not a coincidence for me, When God says in Malachi that we dare Him if He won't open the gates of heaven to provide for us, I believe Him. I have seen Him providing for us. We would go for months without paying rent(Thank God our landlord was a relative) and the rent was so cheap, a college stuent would afford. We moved to another place and the rent is 4times the amount we used to pay, but somehow God provides. Right now we are planning to get our own Home.

This is my experience. So whether am Under the law or not. This is what I choose. One cannot cheat themselves and God. We shall be judged by what we know. Even now, God knows what you know, so if you believe tithing, should be done in this or that way, God will provide for you according to what He knows you know, and what you have chosen to do about it.

Yes, i know it's because of tithing. this is a personal testimony: a few years back, when money was tight, i would decide to spend on my tithe. its not just me, but my family. and i tell you poverty stroke us left and right, food would lack, fare and basic needs. we would become sick one by one. This is not a coincidence for me, When God says in Malachi that we dare Him if He wont open the gates of heaven to provide for us, I believe Him. I have seen Him providing for us. We would go for months without paying rent(Thank God our landlord was a relative) and the rent was so cheap, a college stuent would afford. we moved to another place and the rent is 4times the amount we used to pay, but somehow God provides. Right now we are planning to get our own Home.

This is my experience. so whether am Under the law or not. this is what i choose. One cannot cheat themselves and God. We shall be judged by what we know. Even now, God knows what you know, so if you belive tithing, should be done in this or that way, God will provide for you according to what He knows you know, and what you have chosen to do about it.

If you could not afford the low rent from your relative that allowed you to go without paying, how and why would you move to a place that is 4 times the amt. you used to pay? And now, you are planning to buy a home? How did you go from not being able to pay your landlord his due to buying a home. Where did the money come from all of a sudden. Did you pay your landlord relative all the back rent?

If you could not afford the low rent from your relative that allowed you to go without paying, how and why would you move to a place that is 4 times the amt. you used to pay? And now, you are planning to buy a home? How did you go from not being able to pay your landlord his due to buying a home. Where did the money come from all of a sudden. Did you pay your landlord relative all the back rent?

Cozyk, that was later. It didn't happen overnight. It was a couple of years back. We used to put aside tithe to take to church, but by the time Sunday came, we had used up the money. In all these years, we laboured so hard had and had little to show for it. We new we were stealing from God and therefore, God was not opening his doors to provide as we wanted. Yes, we paid our landlord all the money, and, we could now afford to move to a better house, 4times the amount of the previous because we could afford it. After learning from our mistakes, we started tithing.Personally, before taking my tithe to church, I used to pray to God and quote His Word where He says to dare Him if he will not provide.

In a nutshell, we have moved from a state of poverty at its lowest to a state of providence. Not great wealth(but we will get there by faith) but providence. We can see how far we have come. Every time we remind each other of how far we have come and its only by Gods Grace.

"In a nutshell, we have moved from a state of poverty at its lowest to a state of providence. Not great wealth(but we will get there by faith) but providence. We can see how far we have come. Everytime we remind each other of how far we have come and its only by Gods Grace." - Papili

I hope you realize as a believer that whatever you have or DON'T have as a believer, you are in a state of providence. To state that you will get to great wealth by faith depends on what God's plan is for your life. In other parts of the world, Christians live in great poverty, and persecution and are beaten, raped, killed, etc. and it's not because they haven't heard the "name it and Claim it" preachers or the "prosperity" preachers. The apostles were dirt poor, Jesus had got Peter to get a coin out of a fishes mouth to pay the roman head tax.
It may be God's will for you to be wealthy but I wouldn't assume it is just because you live in America. If on the other hand, you have the joy of giving much more than is asked or required and want to give more, that's different.

Again I agree with Homesell. The prosperity teachers teach 10% name it and claim it.
That is not the faith we are to use when giving but it is what many Christians have reduced giving to.
I have even heard Christians say things like ''I sent Benny Hinn $100. So I am believing in a seven fold return. Then I can buy that big screen TV I want''.

papili,
Thank you for sharing your story.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Just to clarify something, my story and belief in getting more is not based on what my church has taught me or what sone 'preacher' tells me. I simply opened my Bible, and there it was. Loud and clear.

The trouble with the name it and claim it, that it is not bibical, the disiples did not retire to a private island with servants for all of the great work they did for the Lord.

The blessings and the things we receive is not always material, that is where they make their error.

Fr. Chuck,
Point will made and said.
Fred

One thing here.. are you people saying that your required to pay "god" or your "church" a set percentage of your personal income.. if so then in my opinion your religion has not improved.. in my religion we are not required to tithe or whatever you call it but there are offerings made when you can if you can, if not the gods do not disown you, because you offer what you can not in material goods but in thoughts and actions etc.. ( it might be tithing or what have you) now I am not bashing your religion but how is it right that you must pay the chruch... your god doesn't require you to pay him in money but in love, respect and the actions you do. Or so you would think

one thing here.. are you people saying that your required to pay "god" or your "church" a set percentage of your personal income....? if so then in my opinion your religion has not improved.. in my religion we are not required to tithe or whatever you call it but there are offerings made when you can if you can, if not the gods do not disown you, because you offer what you can not in material goods but in thoughts and actions etc.. ( it might be tithing or what have you) now i am not bashing your religion but how is it right that you must pay the church... your god doesn't require you to pay him in money but in love, respect and the actions you do. or so you would think

Some good points made here. My issue is this. I can "tithe" or "pay God" in ways other than giving money to a church. Anytime you make contributions to charities, either money or time you are giving back to God. When you give to United Way, you are giving to God.
When you contribute to a homeless shelter you are giving to God. God is not just in a church. And personally, I don't like supporting the fancy trimmings in the church. The cathedral like buildings in my opinion are an insult to God. Look at the Vatican or The Crystal Cathedral in Ca. They are a bad joke.

And personally, I don't like supporting the fancy trimmings in the church. The cathedral like buildings in my opinion are an insult to God. Look at the Vatican or The Crystal Cathedral in Ca. They are a bad joke.

About the self righteous church

Would You Crucify Him by John Michael Talbot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo-2PFJVjc0&feature=PlayList&p=2B1B9515241F490F&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=14



Chorus:
Would you crucify Him
Would you crucify Him.. my religious friend?
Would you crucify Him.. talking 'bout the sweet Lord Jesus
If He'd walk right here among you once again?


She's askin', How many times have you looked down to the harlot
Lookin' through her tears, pretendin' you don't know?
For once you were just like her, how can you be now so self righteous
When in the name of the Lord you throw the first stone

So now I turn to you through your years of your robes and stained-glass windows
Do you vainly echo your prayers "to please the Lord?"
Profess the Marriage with your tongue, while your mind dreams like the harlot
But if the Judge looks to your thoughts can't you guess your reward?

Yet how many times have you quoted from your Bible
To justify your eye for your eye and your tooth for your tooth?
You say that He didn't mean what He was plainly sayin'
But like the Pharisee, my friend, you're an educated fool!

About the self righteous church

Would You Crucify Him by John Michael Talbot
YouTube - John Michael Talbot - Would You Crucify Him? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo-2PFJVjc0&feature=PlayList&p=2B1B9515241F490F&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=14)



Chorus:
Would you crucify Him
Would you crucify Him..., my religious friend?
Would you crucify Him..., talking 'bout the sweet Lord Jesus
If He'd walk right here among you once again?


She's askin', How many times have you looked down to the harlot
Lookin' through her tears, pretendin' you don't know?
For once you were just like her, how can you be now so self righteous
When in the name of the Lord you throw the first stone

So now I turn to you through your years of your robes and stained-glass windows
Do you vainly echo your prayers "to please the Lord?"
Profess the Marriage with your tongue, while your mind dreams like the harlot
But if the Judge looks to your thoughts can't you guess your reward?

Yet how many times have you quoted from your Bible
To justify your eye for your eye and your tooth for your tooth?
You say that He didn't mean what He was plainly sayin'
But like the Pharisee, my friend, you're an educated fool!

I'm not sure what your point is?

It's a song about how people think that going to churches with fancy trimming and giving their money to them will save them when actually they are basically making God cry because even though they go to church and give their hearts are far from God with themselves righteous attitudes.


Actually it has been 30 yrs since I heard the song and I grabbed the wrong one. This one is about self righteous Christians but the other was more about how they hide behind the fancy church walls with themselves righteousness.

binx44
Considering all that God gas given me I owe Him much more than I could ever repay no matter how rich I might be.
Tithing money or service to the work of God on this planet should be a gift of love and thanksgiving for anyone who believes in and loves God.
That is the way I see it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

but is money really an item that he would like to receive? I know since the 7 sins changed wealth (or money which ever it is) is a sin now... does that make any difference. I could understand a service to the work of god on this planet but even back then money wasn't used so why use it now?

but is money really an item that he would like to recieve? i know since the 7 sins changed wealth (or money which ever it is) is a sin now... does that make any difference.? i could understand a service to the work of god on this planet but even back then money wasnt used so why use it now?

It's used for practical reasons like to pay the mortgage on the church buildings, the electricity, gas, insurance, the minister, associate minister, youth minister, choir director, up keep, hymnals, choir robes, literature, foreign missions, parsonage, possible health ins. For church employees, pianos, organs, office equipment, the church bus if applicable, and more. It's a business. It has expenses. Only thing is, it does not pay taxes. What's wrong with this picture?

CozyK,
Good examples.
Fred

I could understand a service to the work of god on this planet but even back then money wasn't used so why use it now?[/QUOTE]

This is because back then, their mode of exchange was abit different than now. Barter trade was practiced more than now. Their crops and cattle were used as a meams of payment. Because of technology advancement, money and other forms have to be used nowadays.

papili,
Perhaps you did not notice that money was used way back in Solomon's temple and Jesus upset the tables of the money changers in the second temple.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

papili,
Perhaps you did not notice that money was used way back in Solomon's temple and Jesus upset the tables of the money changers in the second temple.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

That I know, I even know judas betrayed Jesus for money. I was misquoting one who had said money was not used back then and why now. Back then, both money and barter trade were very much used. And only now money has surpassed the other forms of exchange.

adam7gur
You have given me something more to think about regarding the Holy Spirit.
Thanks.
Fred

450 donn
Sorry for intervening here but I agree with homesell a businessman doesn't tithe of his gross income but on his profit, his increase, and this is so with the tithe. The israelites only tithed on the increase, the increase in flocks and the increase in crops once the seed was taken and the servant didn't tithe.
But in any case tithing is part of the Old Testament Law and is not required of the Christian we are required to give much more since everything we own belongs to God and so we make offerings and we should not use a formula to calculate how much we should give, this is mean spirited

It's used for practical reasons like to pay the mortgage on the church buildings, the electricity, gas, insurance, the minister, associate minister, youth minister, choir director, up keep, hymnals, choir robes, literature, foreign missions, parsonage, possible health ins. for church employees, pianos, organs, office equipment, the church bus if applicable, and more. It's a business. It has expenses. Only thing is, it does not pay taxes. What's wrong with this picture?

Seems to me it is used for a lot of purposes the tithe was never intended to cover. I don't see charitable works among your list and I can be certain that the Old Testament tithe was not meant to pay the levites.

You are right the church has become a business and the Word of God is being used to justify the shearing of the sheep

We as Latter Day Saints pay 10 percent whole heartedly from our gross , and any extra blessings we may have received. Our gross and extra however, is personally known only between us and God.

This covers Our food storages , Missionary workers in the field, build our churches etc. We do not pass a collection plate. Anyone of our members need anything , they know we have a fund set aside to help them in their time of need, if it be a worthy cause.
They need a job , chances are one of us can help them find one. We feel even that we will be blessed for it.

paraclete,
It is good to see you here again.
Fred

I find this very inspired!

Exposing The Tithe Lie (http://www.lighthouseprophecy.com/prophecy/ExposingTheTitheLie.html)

I personally do not believe we the church are told to tithe. We are told to be cheerful givers... give more than 10 percent if you can but we aren't under the law. If we WERE under the law... it would be from your gross income.

I personally do not believe we the church are told to tithe. We are told to be cheerful givers....give more than 10 percent if you can but we aren't under the law. If we WERE under the law...it would be from your gross income.
I agree with you, classy, the New Testament standard, the standard for Christians, is 2 Corinthians 9 but like most Christian standards it requires serious commitment. It is far easier to operate under the Law and the Church has used the Law to create a rule without discerning that to operate under the Law you must fulfill all of the Law.

I cannot see how tithing can operate without recreating the conditions under which the Jewish system operated, it is a foolishness and false to say that the tithe is 10% of gross income. There is no indication in Scripture that it operated this way in Israel or Judah and the priests and Levites were fed through offerings, the tithe operated on increase in flocks and crops.

In my Church we are asked to give 10% after taxes, not of gross income.
We are asked to give 10% to the Church OR 5% to The Church and 5% to other good causes the Red Cross, the local food bank for the poor, etc.
It comes to mind that Jesus asked a young man to give Everything to the poor and follow Him. The young man did not.
Then there is the bible story about the couple who died becauae the lied about selling everything and giving it to the poor.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

In my Church we are asked to give 10% after taxes, not of gross income.
We are asked to give 10% to the Church OR 5% to The Church and 5% to other good causes the Red Cross, the local food bank for the poor, etc.
It comes to mind that Jesus asked a young man to give EVERTHING to the poor and follow Him. The young man did not.
Then there is the bible story about the couple who died becauae the lied about selling everything and giving it to the poor.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Hi Fred. I look at the examples you gave and actually they have nothing to do with tithing and everything to do with heart attitude and both had the same wrong heart attitude, their money was more important than their salvation. Literally they had gained the world and lost their soul. You cannot attain righteousness by following a perscription of works rather giving to the poor and supporting the church are an outworking of Christ in you.

There will always be religious people to whom the form is more mportant than the substance. It is an unfortunate part of religion. The error is in a structure that supports this form of thinking and tithing in a Christian context is unfortunately part of that, form over substance.

2 Cor. 9: 6-11: Remember this; The person who plants a little will have a small harvest, but the person who plants a lot will have a big harvest. 7 .Each one should give as you have
Decided in your heart to give. You should not be sad when you give, and should not give
Because you feel forced to give. God loves the person who gives happily. 8. And God can give you more blessings than you need. Then you will always have plenty of everthing- enough to give to every good work. 9. It is written in the Scriptures: " He gives freely to the poor. The things he does are right and will contiue forever". 10. God is the One who gives seed to the farmer and bread for food. He gives you all the seed you need and makes it grow so there will be a great harvest from your goodness. 11. He will make you
Rich in every way so that you can always give freely. And your giving through us will cause many to give thanks to God.
To answer your question, it all depends on how much you want to reap. Read Luke 6:38.

My husband and I tithe. We can't afford not too.

Maggie 3

2 Cor. 9: 6-11: Remember this; The person who plants a little will have a small harvest, but the person who plants a lot will have a big harvest. 7 .Each one should give as you have
decided in your heart to give. You should not be sad when you give, and should not give
because you feel forced to give. God loves the person who gives happily. 8. And God can give you more blessings than you need. Then you will always have plenty of everthing- enough to give to every good work. 9. It is written in the Scriptures: " He gives freely to the poor. The things he does are right and will contiue forever". 10. God is the One who gives seed to the farmer and bread for food. He gives you all the seed you need and makes it grow so there will be a great harvest from your goodness. 11. He will make you
rich in every way so that you can always give freely. And your giving through us will cause many to give thanks to God.
To answer your question, it all depends on how much you want to reap. Read Luke 6:38.

My husband and I tithe. We can't afford not too.

Maggie 3

You no doubt know that this Scripture as nothing to do with tithing but is specifically about Christian giving, You cannot reap from tithing. If Paul was writing about tithing he would have said so, but he was not and he did not.

The way I understand the word tithing means giving.
What else does it mean, if anything?

As I understand it Fred tithing was an obligation the Israelites had to God under their Law.

There was no taxation as we know it, so the tithe provided for the welfare system and enabled the Israelites to fulfill their Spiritual obligations of visiting the Temple on feast days. By keeping the first fruits of their labours holy unto the Lord, the Israelites acknowledged God as the giver of all things. Their "Church" was "funded" by the Offerings and Sacrifices made in response to their Law. In no sense could the tithe be considered free will giving.

The old testament teaches us that the "tithe' is the first tenth of our increase. Like it or not. In Hebrews 7 they are discussing the tithe and it transcends the Old Testament by the one who receives the tithe after the order of Melchizdek.
The scriptural definition of the tithe is the tenth part of the FIRST fruit. So to be structurally correct you are to give 10% before taxes, not after. Anything less is an offering. Anything more is an offering.

paraclete,
I still believe that tithing means giving.
And it is mentioned in the New Testament.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

The first one to tithe was Abraham and he gave tithes to Melchizedek.But, he did not gave from his wealth and owning.Remember he chased the enemy who had captured Lot and got the spoils of Sodom that the enemy has stolen from Sodom.On his way back and before getting at his tends where all his wealth was ,Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek after Melchizedek came to meet him and offered to Abraham bread and wine.Melchizedek never asked,Abraham gave as a thank you and he gave from the spoils not his own wealth.Amazingly he also gave the rest of the spoils to the King of Sodom, so in fact he kept nothing, so if Abraham is our example to tithe then I guess we should give everything.But the truth is that tithing has nothing to do with the NT because in the OT people gave tithes because the Levites had no inheritance, no land no wealth.God was their inheritance.The people gave tithes for their sins and the Levites were entitled to keep them for their own needs, and tithing was never about money,it was always about food.So if I was a fisherman or a tax collector I had to turn my money to specific food and then tithe.How did we twist all this into giving ten percent of our income?Isn't it written that we are all priests(Levites)?Isn't it written that we should give according to how much we want and our heart tells us?Does only ten percent of our owning belong to God or is He entitled of all of it?
If we are to keep some of the law we should then follow the entire law and not pick according to our interests.If we tithe why not then circumsize our flesh?
Tithing is not giving and it is not in the NT.

The first one to tithe was Abraham and he gave tithes to Melchizedek.But, he did not gave from his wealth and owning.Remember he chased the enemy who had captured Lot and got the spoils of Sodom that the enemy has stolen from Sodom.On his way back and before getting at his tends whre all his wealt was ,Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek after Melchizedek came to meet him and offered to Abraham bread and wine.Melchizedek never asked,Abraham gave as a thank you and he gave from the spoils not his own wealth.Amazingly he also gave the rest of the spoils to the King of Sodom, so in fact he kept nothing, so if Abraham is our example to tithe then I guess we should give everything.But the truth is that tithing has nothing to do with the NT because in the OT people gave tithes because the Levites had no inheritance, no land no wealth.God was their inheritance.The people gave tithes for their sins and the Levites were entitled to keep them for their own needs, and tithing was never about money,it was always about food.So if I was a fisherman or a tax collector I had to turn my money to specific food and then tithe.How did we twist all this into giving ten percent of our income?Isn't it written that we are all our priests(Levites)?Isn't it written that we should give according to how much we want and our heart tells us?Does only ten percent of our owning belong to God or is He entitled of all of it?
If we are to keep some of the law we should then follow the entire law and not pick and choose according to our interests.If we tithe why not then circumsize our flesh?
Tithing is not giving and it is not in the NT.

You have a good grasp, Adam, Abraham is not an example of giving from income because he didn't give from his income but he gave from what belonged to others, therefore his actions did not form the basis of the tithe.

There are many misinterpretations by those who seek to have us give to them but if we are all levites it is us who are entitled to receive tithes, so let us go to the Church and ask them for a tithe or to feed us from the store house, it would be interesting to see the outcome. You speak of circumcision to Fred, and as he is a Catholic no doubt he is circumcised? Didn't Paul tell us to be wary of the circumcisers?

There are many misinterpretations by those who seek to have us give to them but if we are all levites it is us who are entitled to receive tithes, so let us go to the Church and ask them for a tithe or to feed us from the store house, it would be interesting to see the outcome.
That would be a great change!
[/QUOTE] You speak of circumcision to Fred, and as he is a Catholic no doubt he is circumcised? Didn't Paul tell us to be wary of the circumcisers?[/QUOTE]
I was not referring to Fred since I have no clue what Catholics believe about this.
I simply asked if someone tithes according the Mosaic law,then why not also circumsize?

Then please for you that believe that tithe is OT how do you justify Hebrews7?

Then please for you that believe that tithe is OT how do you justify Hebrews7?

If you have a quote let's hear it

Hebrews 7 has nothing to do with the CHURCH tithing. The writer is making a argument that Jesus is a greater high priest than the high priest then those in the OT. If you put the chapter of Hebrews in context tithing was used as part of a comparison between Melchizedek and the Old Covenant priests. It isn't in any way picture or a description of the way Christians should give today.

Now the verse MY Pastor uses from the NT comes from the Lord Jesus to the Jews. But I have to scratch my head because the Lord Jesus was talking to the Jews under the Law. It wasn't written to the church. You will find the only instruction to the church about actual collection and GIVING is by the Apostle Paul. He simply says to give and then again to do it cheerfully. Those are the instructions having said all that I believe that 10 percent is a great way to give but I am not under a command.

Bother Adam,
I still think that the word tithing means giving.
It is true that Abraham took from others but he did give from what he got.
And yes I am circumsize, but that took place long before I became a Catholic.
And I do give cheerfully and gladly to The Church and to others for all that I have came from God one way or another.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Bother Adam,
I still think that the word tithing means giving.
It is true that Abraham took from others but he did give from what he got.
And yes I am circumsize, but that took place long before I became a Catholic.
And I do give cheerfully and gladly to The Church and to others for all that I have came from God one way or another.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

My brother!
I never questioned the way you give, in fact I am very sure you give as you should,cheerfully and gladly!
My objection is to those who make you believe you have to give to them in a certain way instead of you giving to your neighbour in need.
It is not the heart of the giver I question,it is the heart of the asking!

Hebrews 7 has nothing to do with the CHURCH tithing. the writer is making a argument that Jesus is a greater high priest than the high priest then those in the OT. If you put the chapter of Hebrews in context tithing was used as part of a comparison between Melchizedek and the Old Covenant priests. It isn't in any way picture or a description of the way Christians should give today.

Now the verse MY Pastor uses from the NT comes from the Lord Jesus to the Jews. But i have to scratch my head because the Lord Jesus was talking to the Jews under the Law. It wasn't written to the church. You will find the only instruction to the church about actual collection and GIVING is by the Apostle Paul. He simply says to give and then again to do it cheerfully. Those are the instructions having said all that I believe that 10 percent is a great way to give but I am not under a command.

If you are giving you shouldn't be doing a calculation like 10% to find a cut off or a minimum. When is enough, enough? It isn't. Each should give what they can afford to give or what ever, but not under compulsion

Adam
Thanks.
Point well taken.
Fred

If you are giving you shouldn't be doing a calculation like 10% to find a cut off or a minimum. When is enough, enough? it isn't. Each should give what they can afford to give or what ever, but not under compulsion

Yo Paraclete,

I agree witcha... no aruguement from me. Give what you can, give cheerfully. How can you argue with the Apostle Paul? :)

Since the Tithe predates the Law, how can it be part of the law?
For those that do not believe that tithe means one tenth (1/10) please go to your concordance and do a word search.

Since the Tithe predates the Law, how can it be part of the law?
For those that do not believe that tithe means one tenth (1/10) please go to your concordance and do a word search.

Ah the Abraham/Melchizedek gambit, Abraham "tithed". Abraham did not tithe, no part of Abraham's estate or income was given to Melchizedek. Abraham gave him 10% of property that had been stolen by someoneelse and recovered. If you want to use this as an example then you will be on the wrong side of the Law when you apply it.

The modern tithe is an invented doctrine taken from the Law of the Israelites and imposed on Christians only after centuries. This is why you will not find tithing in the New Testament just as you will not find many Christian practices in the New Testament. It is part of a doctrine of works imposed by a Church no longer led by the Spirit, merely a tradition of man

And that my friend is exactly why in the church as a whole only 15% of people tithe and that is why most traditional religions are not receiving the full blessings of the Lord.
No matter how you slice it, you cannot out give God. I could go on for pages on the blessings I have personally and as a family have received in the last 7 months because we tithe and above that give.
This is another example of people trying to justify not doing what God has instructed and then wondering why they do not receive the full blessings that God has for them. And this discussion will never have a resolution.
So thanks for the laughs, I am done!

And that my friend is exactly why in the church as a whole only 15% of people tithe and that is why most traditional religions are not receiving the full blessings of the Lord.
No matter how you slice it, you cannot out give God. I could go on for pages on the blessings I have personally and as a family have received in the last 7 months because we tithe and above that give.
This is another example of people trying to justify not doing what God has instructed and then wondering why they do not receive the full blessings that God has for them. And this discussion will never have a resolution.
So thanks for the laughs, I am done!

No one suggested you should not give, but "giving" to a formula lacks the spirit of generosity which is required for God to respond with abundant blessings. God will respond according to his word (2 Cor 9) so if you have been giving in the manner you describe then obviously you will be blessed. This no laughing matter, but serious stuff

450donn,
Thanks, I agree.
My Church asks (not demands or threatens) and I give as asked.
It knows what it needs to serve us and the Lord what with all the various church expenses.
It is a way for The Church to communicate with the people on what those needs are and of course the pastor needs something to live on also.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

THE CHURCH of TOMORROW
-by Andrew Strom.

A lot of people probably read some of our writings and wonder,
"Where is all this headed? What is the goal?" A glib answer might
Be- "We want to get back to real 'New Testament' Christianity."
But what exactly does that look like?

This is an important topic - and something I have pondered a great
Deal over the years. What exactly would the 'New Testament Church'
Look like if it was translated into a modern western city?

To get started, I want you to forget about today's church just for a
Moment - with all her obvious problems and contradictions, and
Picture something quite different. I want you to imagine that you
Are still living in the same city, in the same year, but you are right
In the middle of a 'Book of Acts'-type scenario. Somehow everything
Has changed.

For some reason, all of the Spirit-filled Christians in your city have
Left their Denominations and divisions behind. They have truly begun
To fulfill the prayer of Jesus - "That they all may be ONE". They now
Hold huge gatherings all over the city - right out in the open. And as
Well as these united gatherings, on most streets there is now a
House-meeting, where all the Spirit-filled believers from that street
Gather together, eating and sharing and having communion, etc.
(ie. A "NEIGHBORHOOD CHURCH"). The power of God flowing in
These house-meetings is amazing. Many healings and miracles
Are occurring. The 'gifts' flow freely every day.

It seems also that many of the church buildings and cathedrals have
Simply been abandoned. No longer do Christians want to hide them-
Selves away behind "four walls". They want to gather out where the
People are - presenting Jesus to the whole world. They want to be
Truly "one body". There is no way that any of their old buildings
Could contain the crowds, anyhow.

And the men whom God has raised up to lead this vast movement
Do not seem much like the 'Reverends' or even the 'televangelists'
Of old. In fact, quite a few of them have never even been to Bible
College, and they seem to be very plain, ordinary people from
Humble backgrounds. But what an anointing! It is very clear to
Everyone that these 'apostles and prophets' (as they are known)
Have spent many years in prayer and brokenness before God -
Drawing closer and closer to Him. When they speak, the very fear
Of the Lord seems to come down, and many people repent deeply
Of their sins. Demons are cast out and the blind and crippled are
Made whole. -These kinds of things are happening all the time.
The whole city is just in awe of what is going on, and thousands
Upon thousands are being saved. Even the newspapers and
Television are full of it.

As soon as someone repents they are immediately baptized in
Water and hands are laid on them for the infilling of the Holy Spirit.
-This is expected from day one! And it is also expected that every
Christian has a gift and calling from God - and that they should be
Encouraged to move forward and fulfill their calling. No longer is
There a distinction made between those who are "ministers" and
Those who are merely 'laity'. Now it is expected that EVERYONE
Is a minister of the Lord! (However, there are 'elders' - i.e.. Older
Christians to guide things).

Some of the bishops and pastors from several denominations have
Actually denounced this great move of God very strongly. They say
It is "deception" and warn their people to stay away. (-Every Revival
In history has been accused of this - usually by religious leaders).
But to be honest, it is so obvious to most people that God is the
One behind it all, that very few take these men seriously. The Spirit
Of God is sweeping all before Him. The glory of the Lord has come.

One of the reasons that these leaders are so upset is that a lot of
The Christians' GIVING now does not go to church buildings, but
Rather to the POOR. In fact, God has spoken to many people to
Start supporting widows and orphans overseas, etc. They also give
Generously to anyone in their midst who is in need. Many even sell
Their own possessions in order to do this.

The huge over-riding theme of this great movement is LOVE.
"Behold how they love one another" is the catch-cry of many who
Watch this 'new church' in action. And everyone is given too much PRAYER.

And so, gathering "as one" in the outdoors and breaking bread from
House to house, they eat together with glad and sincere hearts,
Praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord
Adds to their number daily those who are being saved.

CAN This REALLY HAPPEN?

The above description is taken straight out of the Book of Acts - as
Applied to today. Everything in the above paragraphs is put there to
Give you an idea of what it would be like to live in the Jerusalem
Church at the start of Acts. -And it was like that for YEARS. Imagine
The impact of such a church on the world around it! God is wanting
To do this again. And He wants to use ordinary people like you and
Me to help bring it to pass.

I am convinced that we are NOT supposed to treat the early church
As a "special case". It was given to us as an 'example'. It is what
The "normal" church should be like all the time! And yet we have
Fallen so far below this standard. Only in times of Revival do we
Approach it again for a time. But I believe it is supposed to be
"normal" for the church to be like this - day in and day out. This
Is the way that Jesus always wanted us to be.

However, one thing is clear. It will take a great "SHAKING" for us
To get anywhere close to the above description today. You have to
Be aware that in order to get there from here, a whole lot of
'hierarchies' and church boards and careers and titles and positions
Would be on the line. And a lot of men simply don't want to lose
Those things. It doesn't matter to them whether it is Truth or not. If
It affects their reputation, their position or their organization, they
Will oppose it with everything they have.

Sadly it is very difficult to see a "smooth" transition to this kind of
Christianity. I believe we are in for a shaky ride. But I certainly
Believe that it is on God's agenda. And like the Great Reformation
Before it, I believe He will do WHATEVER IT TAKES in order to
Get us there.

Here's to true 'NEW TESTAMENT' Christianity, my friends - the
Kind that Jesus and the apostles actually invented in the beginning.

Let us settle for nothing less - WHATEVER IT TAKES.

adam7gur,
What a beautiful picture you painted with words.
At almost 77 years old I think I will not live long enough to see it happen, if ever.
After the great tribulations come in the future there may be some movement in that direction.
The mega churches of today with several thousand in a congregation moving out into the streets or city parks would be a sight to behold for they would take up several acres of space.
Jesus established His Church and said the gates of hell would not prevail against it.
That and other scripture lessons indicate to me that there will be a Church or churches of some kind in existence when He returns.
Just what they will be like then is anyone's speculation.
IF the return is as soon as several million now believe and are preaching then the Churches of today will be very much like those a few years from now.
But I do believe that the second coming is much more than 10 or 20 years from now.
If the Lord so wills, those of us that pass this life soon and into the heavenly kingdom will be able to see from heaven what the Church is like when Jesus does return in great glory.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

My brother!
The picture was painted by Andrew Strom and not myself.I was only very happy with it just as you are,and I thought it would be nice for others to see this also!
Be blessed always!

Adam,
Thanks
Fred

My brother!
The picture was painted by Andrew Strom and not myself.I was only very happy with it just as you are,and I thought it would be nice for others to see this also!
Be blessed always!
Thanks Adam for presenting a picture of the way the Church should operate, truly on New Testament principles

Yeah I don't get the 'from the gross' because that is what the government gets NOT us.
Then as home sell said pay the tithe on the tax return when you get it.


I would say... tithe on the net after taxes, gas, electric (all necessities). But you can't go calling a $600k house a necessity, a luxurious car a necessity, etc. I know you already have the bills coming in for that... but you should think about that before you buy it. Tithe first and if you still have money for an expensive house and car, by all means... go ahead!

I would say .... tithe on the net after taxes, gas, electric (all necessities). But you can't go calling a $600k house a necessity, a luxurious car a necessity, etc. I know you already have the bills coming in for that ... but you should think about that before you buy it. Tithe first and if you still have money for an expensive house and car, by all means ... go ahead!



P.S. I didn't mean you personally. :D Just people in general.

mari49x,
I tithe 10% after taxes.
And of course some of that tax money goes to help the poor, the out of work, and the hungry.
That's it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

The tithe is an Old Testament concept. The tithe was a requirement of the law in which all Israelites were to give 10% of everything they earned—or the crops and animals they grew—to the Tabernacle / Temple (Leviticus 27:30; Numbers 18:26; Deuteronomy 14:24; 2 Chronicles 31:5). Believers in Christ are not commanded to give 10% of their income. Each and every Christian should diligently pray and seek God’s wisdom as to how much he or she should give (James 1:5). Many people believe that the Old Testament tithe is a good principle for believers to follow. Giving 10% of your income back to God demonstrates your thankfulness to Him for what He has provided and helps you to remember to rely on God instead of on riches.

The Bible does not specifically say whether we should give 10% off our gross or net income. The Old Testament teaches the principle of firstfruits (Exodus 23:16; 34:22; Leviticus 2:12-14; 2 Chronicles 31:5). Old Testament believers gave from the best of their crops, not the leftovers. The same principle should apply to our giving today. Again, a believer should give what he believes God would have him give. It all goes back to the attitude of the heart. Are we giving out of reverence for God or out of selfishness for our own wealth? “Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver” (2 Corinthians 9:7).

The tithe is an Old Testament concept. The tithe was a requirement of the law in which all Israelites were to give 10% of everything they earned—or the crops and animals they grew—to the Tabernacle / Temple (Leviticus 27:30; Numbers 18:26; Deuteronomy 14:24; 2 Chronicles 31:5). Believers in Christ are not commanded to give 10% of their income. Each and every Christian should diligently pray and seek God’s wisdom as to how much he or she should give (James 1:5). Many people believe that the Old Testament tithe is a good principle for believers to follow. Giving 10% of your income back to God demonstrates your thankfulness to Him for what He has provided and helps you to remember to rely on God instead of on riches.

The Bible does not specifically say whether we should give 10% off our gross or net income.Beg to differ there. You have already said "first fruits" is that not the same as "gross"? Does not the biblical definition of the tithe mean the same as gross or everything? The Old Testament teaches the principle of firstfruits (Exodus 23:16; 34:22; Leviticus 2:12-14; 2 Chronicles 31:5). Old Testament believers gave from the best of their crops, not the leftovers.They also were required to give first. That is the same as giving from the gross. The same principle should apply to our giving today. Again, a believer should give what he believes God would have him give. That is considered an offering not a tithe!It all goes back to the attitude of the heart. Are we giving out of reverence for God or out of selfishness for our own wealth? “Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver” (2 Corinthians 9:7).

This discussion has gone on for a really long time and people still apparently will not do a study of the tithe or tithing on their own. This is amazing to me. The biblical principal of tithing is based on not appeasing God, nor is it based on paying for the church. God after all does not need your money. He owns the cattle on a thousand hills. Instead tithing is a teaching tool. Anytime someone wants to discuss our money we get very defensive. That is human nature I guess.
If I were to go into all of the details of how God has provided for us in the last 25 months it would make for a really long post. Instead suffice it that without our tithing (the full 10%) and offering above and beyond that, there would be no way we could have survived two job losses like we have in this economy. There is no way I can out give God, but it sure is fun trying, and then seeing how He repays us for our time/talents/energy/money.

450donn,
Good for you.
God has also been very good to me.
"Praise God from whom all blessing flow."
Peace and kindness, Fred

Yes gross is the right amount for 10% of tithe but the word of the Lord says give what belong to Ceasars to Ceasers and What belongs to God to God. Yes the Tax, pension funds, Medical aid and other deductions are taken from our gross income. My question is that, How do I implement tithing in this manner because my net is what is left actually belongs to God? Please correct if I am wrong.

shaikana,
We are to give of our first fruits.
That is our gross income each time we are paid or get a total profit from sales.
To me that means that God gets His share before anyone else gets any.
That is before any taxes or anything else is taken out.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

yes gross is the right amount for 10% of tithe but the word of the Lord says give what belong to Ceasars to Ceasers and What belongs to God to God. Yes the Tax, pension funds, Medical aid and other deductions are taken from our gross income. My question is that, How do I implement tithing in this manner because my net is what is left actually belongs to God? please correct if I am wrong.

It's really easy and you don't need to calculate anything. 2 Corinthians 9 says give what you have decided to give and do it generously and cheerfully and then you will have more to give

paraclete.
Thanks for posting your comment about 2 Corinthians 9 .
It surely helps solve the problem first asked on this thread.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Yes now I know, because in Proverbs 3:9, Its states that we should honour God with the wealth and the first fruit of our income.

Christ gave his first born. And tithe is 10% of gross. God has opened the doors for you to be apBle to work. All he wants is 10% and we get to keep 90%. Man that's a deal. And your money will be cursed of you don't give back what belongs to God anyway. You can't out give God.. try any see what he does in your like. God bless.

Mot,

All of our money will be cursed if we don't give 10%? I think you are wrong.

Although I have taught my kids to give the 10 % of their earnings to the Lord because I think it is a good standard. We are no longer under the law, the only instruction for the believer today is that the Lord loves a cheerful giver and so give cheerfully.

Mot,

All of our money will be cursed if we don't give 10%? I think you are wrong.

although I have taught my kids to give the 10 % of their earnings to the Lord because I think it is a good standard. We are no longer under the law, the only instruction for the believer today is that the Lord loves a cheerful giver and so give cheerfully.

Exactly. The tithe is not a New Testament concept, and Jesus never really mentioned it. The New Testament principle is offering, not tithe, which means if you make enough that you want to offer 90%, that's okay. But if you have nothing and can't even do 1%, God understands and won't be upset about it.

Mot,
We are no longer under the law, the only instruction for the believer today is that the Lord loves a cheerful giver and so give cheerfully.

Uh, sorry, we are still under the law. Jesus taught that he did not come to replace the law, but to fulfill the law. There is a hugh difference.

MT 5-17,18; NASB
Do not think that I came to abolish the law or the prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until Heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the law until all is accomplished.
So right there in this one passage is the fact that we are still under the law. So the tithe is still valid. Not paying the tithe (10% of your gross) is incorrect.

450donn,

Wow. You are really wrong. Think you need to hang out with me on AMHD more and learn. Ha.

I can start a thread about law and grace and we can discuss it better.

Uh, sorry, we are still under the law. Jesus taught that he did not come to replace the law, but to fulfill the law. There is a hugh difference.

MT 5-17,18; NASB
Do not think that I came to abolish the law or the prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until Heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the law until all is accomplished.
So right there in this one passage is the fact that we are still under the law. So the tithe is still valid. Not paying the tithe (10% of your gross) is incorrect.

He did fulfill it. That's why we're not under it any more.

OK, so how do you justify your answer taking this into context?
For truly I say to you, until Heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the law until all is accomplished.

not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the law until all is accomplished.

Ok now what does the word accomplished mean? It means "finished" and we know that on the Cross Jesus said it is finished, in other words there was not anything left to do. This is why Christians believe that they are not under Law but under grace, because Jesus fulfilled the Law. So you remain under the curse of the Law if you want to and strive to be worthy and I will accept the Lord's Grace

OK, so how do you justify your answer taking this into context?
For truly I say to you, until Heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the law until all is accomplished.

Donn,

We are told by the apostle Paul to rightly divide the word of truth. Why did he say "divide"? I believe one reason is because when we read a book of the bible we need to understand who it is written to. It is ALL written for us but it is not all written directly to us. Jesus came to the Jew, he is speaking directly to the Jews of his day and they were under the law. And while he is the eptome of grace, the revelation of the gospel of grace and living under grace is not completely understood until the Lord Jesus revealed it PAUL. The 12 did not receive the gospel of grace... PAUL did. And Paul makes it very clear that we are not under the law any longer.

If Christians do not understand the difference of being under the law and living under grace I do not believe they will be very successful in their Christian walk.

In Galatians 2:9 Paul writes:

James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews.

They had a gentlemen's agreement that Paul would preach his gospel of grace to the Gentiles and the 12 would stick to preaching to the Jews who were still very much under the law. It was difficult for Peter to understand Paul's writings.

When Paul writes about giving he states clearly to be cheerful about it and to give as the Lord has prospered you. There is NO law given as to the amount.

Having said ALL of that, Abraham tithed. Abraham lived long before the law. I think it is a good standard if you can do it and do it cheerfully.

Incidentally, in Galatians 2:9 did you know that James means to overthrow, or to replace, Peter means stone and John means grace.

Replace the stone ( or the law ) with Grace. It isn't a coincidence. :)