My girlfriend is a stripper. I say that only half-heartedly because we’ve dated for 18 months and she’s only been to work about 15 times during that time. We met at the club. I’ve tried to support her going back to work when we need money, but every time it tears us apart.

She’s waiting on me to make a big commitment. Not marriage, but a ‘marriage-like’ type of commitment.

She loves the freedom of dancing. If she found something else where she didn’t have to deal with the same people everyday, could work whatever days she wanted, ignore customers that were s, and not feel any stress from management…she’d do it. It does sound alluring, and she’s obviously willing to strip to have that freedom in her life. She doesn’t want to go deal with something, as an artistic type personality, that she doesn’t like….. only to be let down and me not at least TRY to make that commitment and see what happens. I know it shows an amout of laziness and irresponsibility in her personality. But it is a level I'm ready to attempt to deal with... just drives me mad when the result is her stripping, as opposed to missing a paid bill or killing the plants or not cleaning the kitchen.

There was a time I could deal with it as I was learning about who she was. I was obviously skeptical it could ever be serious, but the more I learn, the more special what we have is. She has many, many flaws that in the past I would rule her out as a mate. But we all have flaws, what can we deal with? I’m divorced now and had the ‘perfect’ woman already….. we had flaws with each other I didn’t know about. I’m not willing to change my priority on what is important and what isn’t. My ex-wife was young, innocent, inexperienced…no vices, simple to trust. But she was selfish and immature and not giving and not interested in a complex man with more sensitivity than even she had.

My new girlfriend loves me for every inch of me….or accepts wholeheartedly she can deal with the flaws she does see in me. We are soulmates in so many senses of the word. Sounds cliché but it's how I feel. It's why this is a hard decision for me. I worry I won't find someone else I connect with, on 15 lvls at the same time, as I do her. Worried about finding someone else is a bad reason to be with someone I suppose.

Now I’ve learned more about her and I still have some small skepticism about things. The irreponsibility, the lifestyle (she's actually too much of a homebody - I like to adventure every weekend!) But we’re close enough the dancing bothers me now. It’s overwhelming and intrudes on ever waking second we have.

But without that commitment, she doesn’t want to find something else. And we need the money now so she must work somewhere.

I’m afraid it will destroy us. I guess I’m asking if it is even remotely reasonable to ask her one more time, give her an ultimatum, she must quit if we’re going to survive, even without more of a commitment. Or if I simply need to tell her that I will make a decision. And if I make that commitment, than she must quit if we’re going to survive.

The first option leaves a few of my bridges unburned. I’m sure she doesn’t appreciate that. Of course my argument has always been….if you truly love me, you will get another job and it will remove so much negativity and we can see if I can make that commitment. I don't want to make that commitment just to get you to stop dancing!!

I don't want to feel like I committed to her, made major changes in MY life, because it was all I could do to get her to stop dancing and see how we are at that point.

If she stops before the commitment, it only takes about a day to quit that job and go back to dancing once we’ve broken up. I see her point. But I see mine also.

I’m very unhappy right now. I must do something. I can repsond with more details, just trying to keep this short (fail).

Correction: I meant to say I am NOW willing to change my priorities.

Having a perfectly bred woman, proper in every way all of a sudden lost it's luster and dating someone that has 'imperfections' - has allowed me to be myself, have true fun with er, want to be with her all the time no matter what...

What was down is up, what was up is down...

OK, did not read all the post,

But in general you don't ask anyone to change, you either accept them they way they are NOW or don't do it at all.

This isn't about the stripping, it's about your fear and lack of trust.


I’m afraid it will destroy us. I guess I’m asking if it is even remotely reasonable to ask her one more time, give her an ultimatum, she must quit if we’re going to survive, even without more of a commitment. Or if I simply need to tell her that I will make a decision. And if I make that commitment, than she must quit if we’re going to survive.

Does she give you any real cause for concern? Does her behavior go beyond the professional in the Club? Does she see patrons outside the Club?

If the answer is no to these questions, then you need to spend some time dealing with your own insecurities and ask yourself why you're sabotaging a good relationship with someone that sounds as if they love you for who you are.

I suggest that you deal with your fears before making any rash decisions as you may destroy what potentially sounds like a great relationship.

No, it's not reasonable to give someone an ultimatum. Not when it's based on your own fears and lack of trust. Wouldn't you be better off giving her your love and support?

Relationships are about making compromises, and sometimes that means supporting your partner doing things you might feel slightly uncomfortable with.

The first sentence says it all.

Your girlfriend IS a stripper. It's not a job. It's what she wants to be.

You said "we" need the money. What do you do?

Just my opinion, but you either love her for who she is now or you don't. You can't commit to the woman she might be. You fell in love with the stripper.

Asking her to change for you is wrong and her asking for a certain kind of commitment before she quits stripping is... well, I'm a little baffled by that one.

I understand where you're coming from, and how the profession she's currently in could bother you, however, you really do need to accept your girlfriend as she is, stripping and all.
It's something I've learned with my current relationship, living your relationship with the thoughts of what "could be" is never smart or healthy.
Bottom line, you either can love and respect and grow with her in her current profession which she enjoys, and accept her 100% for that, or else it's unfair to both of you to continue it.
If it's a great relationship on all other counts, then I would do some serious soul searching if I were you, and just look at all sides of it.
If it's fear and insecurity on your part that's leading to your feelings, then read some books and perhaps talk to a counselor about it, I know it's helped me with various issues in my life!

As far as your girlfriend expecting a big commitment before she'll quit stripping (which is kind of an odd proposition on her part lol), I think you should find the strength to accept her as she is, and eventually, when the time is right and your relationship is in the proper place, make a bigger commitment.
Don't make a commitment simply because you want her to stop stripping, because that's almost leading her on in a way. Like "I'll commit because I want you to stop doing this thing that's bothering me" not "I'll commit because I love you so deeply and want to be with you no matter what."

Just my thoughts.
Best of luck to you :)

Some people might see it as a bonus...

The guys at the bars don't get to touch... you do.


My new girlfriend loves me for every inch of me….or accepts wholeheartedly she can deal with the flaws she does see in me.

And that is exactly what you need to do... accept her for who she is and what she does or let her find someone else who is willing to accept it.

I know it must be hard knowing what she does for a living but it is her choice and if you trust her you will know that she wouldn't be getting up to no good while she is at work.

Heck she is probably more trustwothy than a lot of people with office jobs!

Like Survivor, I am confuse to because are you saying it is okay for her to strip when the two of you need money? If so aren't you contradicting yourself.

Also, if the two of you aren't getting married what is all of this about commitment? The two of you are even serious or no and if the two of you are living together wouldn't you say the two of you are serious.

You met her while she was stripping and accept it so all this about her stopping only if you commit to her is game and an excuse to continue stripping. You can't make her stop what she is doing she has to want to stop and you can tell her nor be okay with her stripping when the two of you are strap for money. I guess you like the fast money then.

Like Survivor, I am confuse to because are you saying it is okay for her to strip when the two of you need money? If so aren't you contradicting yourself.

Also, if the two of you aren't getting married what is all of this about commitment? The two of you are even serious or no and if the two of you are living together wouldn't you say the two of you are serious.

You met her while she was stripping and accept it so all this about her stopping only if you commit to her is game and an excuse to continue stripping. You can't make her stop what she is doing she has to want to stop and you can tell her nor be okay with her stripping when the two of you are strap for money. I guess you like the fast money then.


First I would like to thank everyone for their comments and general good attitude. It is wholly appreciated. Secondly, sorry for the confusion. And sorry this is so long. I don't expect many to read it all... but it would be helpful if someone did. So far the feedback has been useful.

Inside I'm just screaming that I'm done with this... I've swallowed my pain for too long. I'm simply not built for this. Everyone has their weaknesses and flaws... this is one of mine. Hell, with my ex-wife I didn't even want her to see a male OB/GYN. I understand that's wholly unhealthy and I do have a counselor. But it gives you an idea of the level of discomfort I have in a normal relationship. In some ways I've seen dating this girl as a way to grow and learn what is important. Not that people see her breasts, but the intimacy and connection we have together. I've matured in that way, but now I'm just at my rope's end with it. She could quit today and I would have plenty of 'challenge' ahead of me to simply get OVER the fact that she was a dancer for ten years. Or was promiscuous for a few years in her early 20s. I'm already trying so hard to grow as a person without dealing with it immediately.

I have an 8-5 office job. We maintain separate residences (and rents) but basically live together 6-7 nights a week. If there are no 'one-off' costs, my salary can cover all of our expenses, though it leaves little in the way of money for savings, vacations, etc.

It is when there is an event such as needing a down payment for a new car, the AC needed to be repaired, that we need an extra 500+ a month.

I'm not 'okay' for her to go to work even when we need the money. But she's asked me to let her try to feel like she is contributing financially, when we need the money - she has been an independent woman for a long time and wants to provide value and not merely taken care of. I've told her at times I have thought about getting a second job for a few months (I've got my own debt I'm trying to pay down too), and she is worried that will burn me out, would feel bad that I'm basically working a 2nd job so she never has to go to work.

Of course in my mind, I would rather work an extra 30 hours than have the stress of her going in to work. She thinks it would kill our relationship if I work too much, and doesn't see the extent of the damage it cause for her to be in 'work' mode. Some weeks she doesn't go to work... but for 3 days she had 'planned' to go to work. And emotionally I've got to 'prepare' all day long to try to get on board with it, plan out how I'm going to keep myself busy at night, etc. Then she simply doesn't go and I'm exhausted. If she had a different job I'd be mad that she wasn't helping out with money more, but we can't even have an honest conversation about it because if I tell her I would like her to help out more, it only means she works more, which is more stress for me than even letting my bank account get to pennies before the next payday.

So far I've understood her logic, she's asked me to trust her, and I've done the best I can. It goes up and down. She just wants me to 'suck it up' and let her make a few thousand dollars.

There are times she goes to work, I meet her there at midnight, make her some company when it's slow, and have a good time while she usually sits with someone else and does a couple of dances. This worked for a few months. It built my trust in her to see her dancing, and that while I didn't like it, I felt like she did the very best she could to be professional. Sometimes guys grab and it takes a few seconds to gracefully push them off - you can't be a just because some other whores in the club made him think it was OK to do that - you'll never get paid. Is it easy to sit back and imagine some guy grabbing her, against her will, until she sets him straight? She protects herself the best she can, she's extremely aware and cerebral about it. I respect those things. She makes it about work - she gives her email to customers because if it were up to her, she'd have 3 regular customers and meet them when they email her and that is it.

If it were up to her, she would go to work often enough to 'latch' on to those 3 customers. When one stops coming, you go get another one. No bull. No college guys or pervs looking to get as much as possible. Not fraternizing outside the club. She has 3-4 glasses of wine at work, maybe a shot some nights, but does no other drugs while at work (she loves the weed on the weekends).


I did accept it when I met her. And trust me, I was more than amazed when I realized she honestly did like me. That was some source of trust issues... because I know what she let me do when I was paying her... and she says that she just fell for me, totally threw away her professionalism for me. And as far as I can tell, she is being honest about that.

There was one night a year ago when there was pressure to make money, she felt 'worthless' because she was being taken care of, she drank too much that night, and let a guy grab her too much. She knew I was at the club, knew if I happened to walk around the corner I could see. I don't think it was conscious and she tried to explain the disconnect, etc. So she lost control and was very pissed at herself. It hurt our trust a lot. That was 9 months ago. We've been rebuilding it ever since. She's had to yell at me that she's not a whore and that I need to trust her.


The problem is in the last month my comfort level at even the most basic things that I've lived with off and of for a year as disappeared. Now I seem to get jealous when she is simply sitting on a guys lap. There are some trust issues, but this part is simply about acceptance. In the past I've respected all she's done to make an effort to make me trust her... to the point of even dancing on stage and keeping her top on unless someone comes to tip her.

We got into an enormous fight the other night. I showed up at the club at 1:40. Basically to try and continue building my trust, and if I go up there I don't feel like I'm sitting at home waiting all night - a vulnerability that drives me insane. But it is so late I'm obviously not spying on her, and not de-focusing her from making money. She was angry that I came up, that I couldn't give her one night without me there. And I was very angry back, just all of this built up anger and pain I've been swallowing for a year.

I 'accepted' her as a stripper when I met her. I accepted that this would probably be a short lived fling because I could never survive in a relationship with her, and assumed a lot of things about her and her lifestyle because she was a stripper. I got to know her, got to see how she's attempted to make that a job (though I'm sure there was plenty of wildness and 'losing control' nights when she was in her early 20s even if there aren't now), and I ended up in very deep emotionally.


I've read other forums and I understand it when people say, 'you need to trust her. You need to get over it, etc.' That's often correct and good advice. Of course they rarely help with 'how' to do that. Of course men WANT to trust, WANT to be at peace... but it's not like flipping a switch.

I've never given her an ultimatum. But what it does inside of me, the distance it creates between us... it turns into a relationship that she doesn't want either as our 'connection' starts going away. Issues about whether she wants children or not start becoming HUGE issues. When I've been madly in love, I've been willing to accept that this is the most important thing in my life, and willing to sacrifice some of my dreams to have this kind of relationship. But when we don't share that... what I'm missing out on by being with her starts to seem to matter more.

If she doesn't quit, or I can't make a major change, then it's over either way.

A relationship is supposed to add to your life, be enjoyable.

I think you have to weigh out the good vs. the bad here.

You mentioned having children. If that's what you want, consider her life style, the dancing, alcohol and weed on the weekends... I don't see a child fitting in there well.

I read your post and my impression is that this may be a toxic relationship. You are not happy and want too many changes, from her and you. Your last paragraph says it all.

You are losing yourself in this.

You and this girl doesn't see eye to eye. You want different things from her and I don't think you flush your dreams down the toilet. You can't change her but you can change by finding someone that wants the same thing as you.

Her stripping isn't the only problem here and giving her an ulimatum won't resolve your differences.

You and this girl doesn't see eye to eye. You want different things from her and I don't think you flush your dreams down the toilet. You can't change her but you can change by finding someone that wants the same thing as you.

Her stripping isn't the only problem here and giving her an ulimatum won't resolve your differences.


Thank you for the feedback.

I think perhaps I've been so willing to try with her because I have already had a failed marriage. Someone that did want all of the same dreams I had, but it increasingly felt like we just went through the motions. The wedding, the honeymoon, the trips overseas... they were fantastic... but I just felt outside myself and wondering why it feels like I'm playing a part.

You smile for wedding photos because you're supposed to... like going through graduation ceremony when you know that you really have another 3 classes before you're done with school. You experience it, but you haven't accomplished the goal.

And my girlfriend, the majority of the time, has made me feel like I could have that same ceremony with her... and feel lost in her, in us, in the celebration of what we've found and made together. That we have a special bond that we've never had, and you can see most people don't have in their lives.

And thus I've dismissed or de-prioritized her flaws or our other incompatibilities. But someone that is more socially acceptable, has no vices, wanted an identical lifestyle... didn't love me enough to care to get to know my friends, hear the stories of my past relationships that made me who I am today, giggle and adore my home videos as a child...

I've just got such treasures that I'm afraid of never finding again... but eating my arms off in jealousy and resentment for 'causing' that jealousy probably won't allow us to continue enjoying those treasures anyway.

Bluedog,

Hopefully I can provide you with some first hadn perspective because I have also dated strippers. I used to be a bartender and there was a strip club down the street and they would come in a lot and invite me to the strip club. The one thing I learned is you can't judge the girl by the name. In other words if she's on stage she's using a name and creating a fantasy for the patrons. Some men might get lost in it, and give them everything like you described about her wanting 3 regulars. My experience was give them nothing in the club and treat them great outside, because everyone has this notion about what a stripper is, as opposed to who they really are. Remember men are visual, women are emotional. Most guys that throw there paychecks away at strippers are not the guy that a girl, especially a stripper want. They see the worst of men, so when a guy comes along who is stable, honest, in control, and able to control himself, they see that as attractive. If you look back at your own relationship, I guarantee you the reason you succeeded for so long was you didn't think you had much of a chance so you didn't care the outcome. It's easy to write a stripper off as some slut when you bomb with them. When you succeed then it's when it hits you, this isn't just a girl up there, she's my girl, who is real with real emotions, problems, successes, and other personality traits. The fantasy is over. Reality is here. Now that your know you have the chance and You have learned the difference, when she's at home. But when she tells you she's going to work you forget it.

The last one I dated for a long time and I won't tell you it didn't mess with my head to wonder because it did. But the irony was, she was one of the smart ones, as many girls get sucked into the drugs, my ex bought a house, a restored camero, and was investing her money. She was making great money but not blowing it away. But your girlfriend sounds silimar (except for the weed, my ex didn't even drink if you can believe that) in that she's got a good head on her shoulders. I think you have to give her some credit... and it's hard to sort of let go and do it, I realize. But she's not looking to abuse the situation, she's looking to help out.

Which does beg my next question though, couldn't she get another job if she wanted to help you out? If she wants to work those hours, bartenders pay great.

As far as you go, I understand your fears, but the most important person in the relationship is you. If your relationship is causing you turmoil then you have to separate for your own emotional health. You say you may not find someone like her again, but she's not bringing complete happiness, it's happiness with a high self esteem price. To me, I don't think she is worth that. But I also don't think you are seeing the woman at home, your seeing the woman at work.

I think that Survivor has expressed it very succinctly. You are losing yourself in this.

For someone that has trust issues (I must say, having issues with your ex-wife going to the OB/GYN spun me out a bit), having a girlfriend that is a stripper is the ultimate test.

At some level, you ARE testing yourself. At some level your unconscious understands that trust is a make-or-break issue in your life and has provided you with this huge challenge.

I would like to present a slightly different perspective:

What I believe is that you will always have this issue until you deal with it. Sure, it's easy to ditch this relationship and find another one. Less toxic, less challenging. Or will it be? I suspect that this is your life's 'big issue'. You will find another GF and you will find something in that relationship that will begin this process over again - it will start to eat away at you - slowly at first and then it will become overwhelming - the doubts, the jealousy, the resentment. This seems to be your pattern.

Is this how you want to live? Waiting for your GF, who is only human, to do some small thing that will break your trust? Discarding opportunities for good relationships because your partners can't meet your exacting standards of perfection? Letting yourself down because your insecurities get the better of you?

This is the thing about life's big challenges - they are difficult and sometimes we want to give up because it all gets too much. Don't give up! Go and see your counsellor and get to the bottom of this problem you have, learn how to sense the triggers and switch off the thoughts. Share this with your GF and get her to support you through it. It will take time, but what else do you have but time?

Please think about the possibility that if you don't make an effort to deal with your current problem, it will only come back in another form, in another relationship.

When I've been madly in love, I've been willing to accept that this is the most important thing in my life,
And I will bet, you think your in love, but not with the person your with, just the idea of it.

and willing to sacrifice some of my dreams to have this kind of relationship.
And what kind of relationship would that be? Sacrifice?? What you mean is they must sacrifice and make the changes you want, and it was probably the same with your ex wife, you wanted her to change also, and that worked out rather well didn't it.

But when we don't share that... what I'm missing out on by being with her starts to seem to matter more.

Your preconceived notions of what a relationship is, has caused you a marriage already, and instead of learning from that, your doing the same thing again with another.

Your not ready for a relationship, so forget the commitment, as you can barely handle your own feeling, let alone those of another.

Its a big red flag when someone says they are willing to sacrifice what they believe for a relationship, as it usually says they have the expectation that their partner has to sacrifice something too, and its always of your choosing, and not hers. Is it control because of your fears and insecurities?? No, its because you really don't know what you want, nor how to get it, or keep it. Sorry to be harsh, but thats what I see by what you wrote.


If she doesn't quit, or I can't make a major change, then it's over either way.

I could have told you that. It was over when you first wrote this post and since there is no working together, it can never work. By the way, I take your reference to major change as her doing the changing so you can be happy, and secure, and in control.

You can't get what you want by making another do what you want, while yo ignore your own issues and attitudes and I feel, JUST FROM WHAT YOU HAVE WRITTEN, you would have the same issues with a nun, as you would a stripper.

You have a lot of work to do to be happy with yourself. I hope you can do that.

Bluedog,

Now that your know you have the chance and You have learned the difference, when she's at home. But when she tells you she's going to work you forget it.

Which does beg my next question though, couldn't she get another job if she wanted to help you out? If she wants to work those hours, bartenders pay great.

You say you may not find someone like her again, but she's not bringing complete happiness, it's happiness with a high self esteem price. To me, I don't think she is worth that. But I also don't think you are seeing the woman at home, your seeing the woman at work.

I've been trying to find the vocabulary to describe how I feel when she goes to work these days. Hell, the last 3 times, she's probably given a total of 4 dances. She never cares about making more than $100 or so a night - just enough to help out, as you said.

And she makes more than half of her money usually by just sitting with a guy for 2-3 hours, dancing MAYBE once or twice, and she'll get $50-100 just for being incredible company - she is a fantastic conversationalist and doesn't treat men like wallets - certain men like that.

So in many ways that feels great that she does so much to limit the potential of being 'whorish'. But my self-esteem for lack of a better word, is only getting worse. I used to be very supportive of her on stage - and I used to say, if you could make $100 a night just from tips being on stage, I could support THAT for a very long time. But not even that eats at me... the break in our intimacy of sharing, visually, her nude body with so many others. Last week an old, old friend of hers came into the club. They hang out and have beers and watch movies once every few months. But now that he went in to see her, tipped her on stage but didn't buy a dance (don't think she'd do that for him), it just makes me feel... violated because it is someone she knows. She can't keep him from coming into the club so I can't blame her...

As far as another job; she's worked as a bartender before, her family owned a bar and so she was 'raised' in one. She loves the freedom of her schedule above all things. No manager to tell her what days to work, no having to work with or talk to the same people 2-3 days a week. As a bartender you have to be nice to the customers that hit on you or are rude to you... as a dancer you have the power to never be forced to speak with them (her club would NEVER ask her to sit w/ someone she didn't want to). If you feel tired from dealing with her mom, or was sick, or just didn't feel well... she can choose at the last minute to not go. Again, this is a freedom (easily abused) that most of us never have the choice to address. Those things are big for her... but part of me feels it is a little selfish, but I understand her other hesitation is that there are times we've been on the rocks before, and I think she wants to have a lot of faith in us before she makes a life change and 'sacrifices' for us and has a fixed schedule.

I always understood the allure of that kind of freedom... but the price is my own suffering and our relationship. And for as little as she's pulled in at work dancing... it seems like if she could have 2 nights a week as a bartender, she'd make twice as much money and have my support and happy relationship.

She's aware at how resentful she could be to do that... because of my limitations. She feels she's done EVERYTHING she can to make me feel comfortable and trust her at work. And she has... very little is still a trust issue... it's just down to a discomfort/jealousy/self-esteem/pain issue for even doing the things we both agree are 'ok'.

She sat with a guy a month ago... on his lap at his table... his hands were folded behind his back... he was ultra respectful to her... and I still felt unhappy and 'angry'. It's just not the same as it was the nights where I've felt positive and secure. Maybe it is a downward spiral... she works and I pull back in the relationship... I get more insecure, she gets more insecure, so that it is even worse the next time she works because we're more distant...

I basically lived with her for 4-5 months without her working... and for awhile thought she would never go back. It wasn't a perfect relationship because other issues and stresses came up... but so many negative feelings were gone...

Whatever feelings it creates - self-esteem, insecurity, humiliation, lack of pride in her or myself... they kill our intimacy and special connection - which is the reason we've been together. No matter how badly she wants the other 6.5 days in the week to be about our intimacy and those 8 hours to mean 'nothing'... they just do mean something to me.

I think that Survivor has expressed it very succinctly. You are losing yourself in this.

For someone that has trust issues (I must say, having issues with your ex-wife going to the OB/GYN spun me out a bit), having a girlfriend that is a stripper is the ultimate test.

At some level, you ARE testing yourself. At some level your unconscious understands that trust is a make-or-break issue in your life and has provided you with this huge challenge.

I would like to present a slightly different perspective:

What I believe is that you will always have this issue until you deal with it. Sure, it's easy to ditch this relationship and find another one. Less toxic, less challenging. Or will it be? I suspect that this is your life's 'big issue'. You will find another GF and you will find something in that relationship that will begin this process over again - it will start to eat away at you - slowly at first and then it will become overwhelming - the doubts, the jealousy, the resentment. This seems to be your pattern.

Is this how you want to live? Waiting for your GF, who is only human, to do some small thing that will break your trust? Discarding opportunities for good relationships because your partners can't meet your exacting standards of perfection? Letting yourself down because your insecurities get the better of you?

This is the thing about life's big challenges - they are difficult and sometimes we want to give up because it all gets too much. Don't give up! Go and see your counsellor and get to the bottom of this problem you have, learn how to sense the triggers and switch off the thoughts. Share this with your GF and get her to support you through it. It will take time, but what else do you have but time?

Please think about the possibility that if you don't make an effort to deal with your current problem, it will only come back in another form, in another relationship.


Thank you, this is great advice. Some people believe we're here to 'perfect' our souls or whatever... and I agree this is a huge challenge for me. I don't know what in my childhood or personality feels such horror... and no matter how well my extremely aware and smart girlfriend understands those 'demons' in me... it seems like she doesn't give me enough leeway. But I can't blame her, she has flaws that I don't fogive or provide true understanding and acceptance for. She accepts me the way I am FAR more than I do her.

I get brain flashes thinking about her past... moments of intense recoil thinking about her with another guy. Or if she dances at home for me, which is lovely, I can't enjoy it because part of me imagines, well, she did this 100 times for someone else... even if the truth is she can do things for me she'd never do for a customer.

Only with true security when she wasn't dancing and our relationship was at its peak... did I stop having these flashes and I had peace and wasn't living in the past.

Since I originally posted this comment... we've had a huge conversation about the distance in our relationship... and that she can feel my anger and resentment that is stored up from this... and we're in the process of finding out if we have a future. And there doesn't seem to be enough goodwill to ask her to stop dancing... or for me to honestly be 'ok' with it well enough so we can heal to the point where she sees what we have left in our relationship is special enough to make that sacrifice to work somewhere else.

I don't fully understand why it creates feelings of worthlessness inside of me... (everyone gets to see my girlfriend, my undying love, in a t-back... ) I know I've based a lot of my self-value on the acceptance and exclusivity in sharing her body and soul with me. That isn't easy to fix.

And as much as she consciously knows that, the attitude of 'suck it up for 3 months' 'turn your head for 2 months' 'when we're 80 it won't matter at all if I was a stripper' - makes me feel like she doesn't truly get it. That I'm afraid if she keeps doing this for too long... I'll hold the resentment forever.

There was a time I was thinking... there is a huge challenge in just dealing with her being a stripper for 10 years, even if she never worked once while we dated. Previously I would have said I could never even do that. And now here I am.

As you said, life throwing at me all matter of things that have horrified me - she was sexually abused (shocking I know!! ), spent 6 months being quite promiscuous in her early 20s (not something I've EVER dealt with well), and of course danced for 10 years.

Yet since I've met her, she's never given me a single reason to not trust her faithfullness and honesty in all situations. But my belief system about her precarious lifestyle in the past has made it imminently difficult to have trust and security without asking her to sacrifice everything about herself - and she's done that on occaision to prove to me I can trust her. And yet still here I am. And of course she's running out of patience.

If you can't separate the person from the job, you will never be happy, and that's your problem, not hers. There is no such thing as instant happiness and if your not willing to put the work in, you'll never have it.

This isn't about her stripping, its about your unrealistic expectations.

If you can't separate the person from the job, you will never be happy, and thats your problem, not hers. There is no such thing as instant happiness and if your not willing to put the work in, you'll never have it.

This isn't about her stripping, its about your unrealistic expectations.


Unrealistic expectations of... you work 2-3 times a month in a job that, given the current level of our relationship, causes a lot of stress and discomfort for me/us. While I continue to pay 70% of your bills, shouldn't you consider 3-4 times a month at another job for our long term health?

If you like your freedom so much, what part of, "this is killing us and might break us up...leading to you working 15 days a month" gives you more freedom to pursue your other interests and take care of your family (invalid mother)?

I just feel like the vast majority of the people would see that as a fairly simple trade off. I respect her wanting to feel more independent, but an absolute commitment to this job at the expense of our relationship certainly is frustrating. Especially when she's admitted that she's ALWAYS stopped dancing whenever she was in a relationship in the past. It was only because I did as well as I could for so long, and she held out hope I would be able to support her 100% and it not affect us negatively that she kept it in her back pocket.

Perhaps I'm just being selfish. I know it is a huge problem for most dancers. It is not a new problem for her. But there's other ways to not feel so 'taken care of' than something you know is inherently difficult for your partner based on their personal psychology.

For example, there are many women that would abhor and suffer in a relationship if their spouse were to travel 4-5 days a week all year long.

At the end of the day, if I can't be healthy in our current environment, she won't get what she wants out of the relationship either, and we will dissolve or a change has to be made. Therapy might make significant progress... but it's not going to be overnight.

Anyway...

Bluedog,

I may get hanged for this by everyone else, but I don't see what therapy is going to do for you in this situation. She is who she is, and you can't except her for it. Therapy isn't going to change that. Your emotional state is out of whack. You want her, but she causes emotional havoc. Nothing against her, but is she worth what your doing to yourself? A relationship is supposed to benefit two people, and your enjoying certain benefits, but taking an emotional fall to get them. Is it worth the fall?

I agree with Chuff, you have a different moral outlook and how you wish she would be, sadly this is not who she is. It's not your fault, or her fault. You two simply don't mix because of her chosen career path. Obviously, you two need to come to a COMPROMISE! Not a sacrifice, relationships don't work that way. You either solve the problem together, or it tears you apart. Right now you are torn apart. I don't see her changing, and if she likes it, she shouldn't have to. You have to sit down, explain it all and then see what she has to say and make a valid assessment of the relationship.

I agree with the others commitment will not change her or your relationship. It is what she loves and you lack trust or simply do not like the idea of other guys seeing her body.
So you either have to get over it or maybe help her find some other work that she would enjoy or find a more compatible girl.

Bluedog,

I may get hanged for this by everyone else, but I don't see what therapy is going to do for you in this situation. She is who she is, and you can't except her for it. Therapy isn't going to change that. Your emotional state is out of whack. You want her, but she causes emotional havoc. Nothing against her, but is she worth what your doing to yourself? A relationship is supposed to benefit two people, and your enjoying certain benefits, but taking an emotional fall to get them. Is it worth the fall?


I appreciate the comment and will think on it. Thanks.

Originally Posted by talaniman https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/amhd_imgs/buttons/viewpost.gif (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/relationships/commit-stripper-girlfriend-so-she-stops-dancing-she-stops-before-commit-354679-2.html#post1745899)

This isn't about her stripping, its about your unrealistic expectations.

Your trying to change someone who doesn't want to be changed.


Unrealistic expectations of... you work 2-3 times a month in a job that, given the current level of our relationship, causes a lot of stress and discomfort for me/us
More discomfort for you than her.


While I continue to pay 70% of your bills, shouldn't you consider 3-4 times a month at another job for our long term health?

Why should she, your already paying 70% of her bills. Why should she change for you?

Your trying to buy this female, and its not working, not only are your expectations unrealistic, but so are your methods.

Your trying to change someone who doesn't want to be changed.


More discomfort for you than her.


Why should she, your already paying 70% of her bills. Why should she change for you?

Your trying to buy this female, and its not working, not only are your expectations unrealistic, but so are your methods.


True, more discomfort for me. But my discomfort has caused distance in our relationship, and damaged the very things she loved about being in it. I would think there would be a vested interest or priorities.

I'm not trying to be stubborn or disagreeable. Perhaps I'm just lost and cast myself in her role and say it would be easy to give it up. But that's truly not putting myself in her perspective. What it truly means to her to make a lifestyle change when she's not ready to.

Unfortunately wanting to 'accept her the way she is' 'learn to not be jealous' 'just trust her' is easier said that done.

I don't know the best way to accomplish those things. I guess I will be working on compromise... or simply admitting that we are not compatible enough because we have different outlooks. Perhaps she's just sociologically advanced, and can separate or not place value on exclusivity when it comes to nudity. To me there's a value there... it definitely is not what it was before. I love the idea of a woman that believes that she is for her 'lovers' eyes only. Just as much as I love the idea of monogamy and the beautiful places that can take you that casual sex simply cannot (for me anyway).

I've changed greatly and I did truly feel a sense of freedom and peace a year ago when I could see her at work.. and even once found it exciting to see her dancing for another man, admiring her body with his eyes. But it's just a thin line between that comfort and jealousy/possessiveness. A sense that you are missing something that other men have... an insecurity and vulnerability from it. I just can't put my finger on it. I feel like if I could pinpoint it I could help not trigger those negative feelings. Perhaps it is simply because I know how (at times) I can see a naked woman and simply lust... and don't want others to feel that about her.

Perhaps the key is... what changed to make me lose that level of comfort?

LOL - she always compares it to Hollywood... "hey, so what if i was on screen having a sex scene with some guy....?"

It's all perspective I guess... thanks for listening.

I still think it may be a good idea to try and help her find a job she enjoys. Look for something in entertainment.
Like where I live they film a lot of movies and they are always looking for extras. Or if you have a place like a theatre that does plays or dancing.

Perhaps the key is... what changed to make me lose that level of comfort?



She became yours in your mind, and you don't like sharing, you think. All your problems.

Paying someone's bills, as you do, also makes you feel entitle to tell her what to do, and make demand, about what you think you deserve, and that's all screwed up.

What's so bad, you live apart, and have no freaking business paying her bills in the first place. Let me tell you straight up, your more than a boyfriend, you're a sugar daddy.

Why is that not healthy? Because you expect control, and compliance for what you do, driven by some very frustrating immature feelings.

I really don't think she will give up her freedom for the life you want her to lead. Sorry.

I totally understand where you are coming from about being jealous about her occupation. I wouldn't want my partner to take off all of their clothes for strangers to gwak at them and throw them money either.

I also know where she is coming from as well. My best friend is a stripper and I keep trying to help her get another job that is respectable. She likes the money that she makes stripping though. That is why she doesn't want to stop. It is easy money.

You can't force someone to change, espically if they don't want to change. If you have to give someone an ultimatum in a relationship, maybe the relationship isn't worth having. It isn't fair for you to give her an ultimatum and it isn't fair for her to make you feel like you need to give her an ultimatum. (She obviously doesn't know why it is a big deal for you to accept the fact that she is a stripper) But, you started dating her knowing that she is a stipper, so it isn't fair for you to ask her to stop. It doesn't sound like this relationship is good for you.

Like I said, I wouldn't want my partner to strip either. I wouldn't want all these people looking at what is mine. That would make me jealous as well. (You are not alone in that boat) So, if you don't want to have those feelings (which only you can change them) and she is not willing to get another occupation (which only she can make that decision), then I think that it would be best for the two of you to go your separate ways.

But, like I said before, you met her knowing that she was a stripper and you were okay with it then, so you need to figure out whether you can deal with this or not and if you can't then you need to move on and find a woman who is more compatible for you. You can't force her to change when you accepted her for who she was when you first started dating.

Good luck with everything.

You've gotten so much good advice here, I don't have a lot to add, but I would like to point out that if your girlfriend really feels that badly about not contributing financially, there are other things she could do. Stripping may be easy for her, but it's not worth the turmoil it brings to your relationship. Honestly, it would kill me to see my girlfriend sitting on other people's laps, exchanging emails, etc.

Since she doesn't mind evening hours, how about being a wait person in a high end restaurant? Some of those folks make hundreds in tips in one night! She has to be willing to work with you and find a job that will be less torturous for you. She won't be able to strip forever, she might as well start thinking of other things she might enjoy.

If she's unwilling to compromise, I don't think I'd stick around. I wish you the best...

I just want to add one thing here:

If she was paying 70% of the bills, and asked YOU to get a different job that paid less, had fewer benefits you cared about, and that you HATED every moment you were there---how would you feel?

How about you go work part time at McDonald's, or in a book bindery, or some other menial job that just sucks away your should, and let HER pay the bills, and see how much YOU like it.

You are asking her to give up a lot, with absolutely NOTHING in it for her other than you. Do you really think that you're worth her indepence, her self-worth, and her freedom?

As far as some of the other suggestions about ways to get "good money" that are "more respectable", please remember that those jobs are ALSO more restrictive.

This relationship isn't going to work, because the OP is too possessive to believe in his woman. It's JUST a job. If she gave massages for a living, would you eventually have issues with the fact that she touches naked men all day? Even though that's a more "respectable" job?

Paying someones bills, as you do, also makes you feel entitle to tell her what to do, and make demand, about what you think you deserve, and thats all screwed up.

Whats so bad, you live apart, and have no freaking business paying her bills in the first place. Let me tell you straight up, your more than a boyfriend, your a sugar daddy.



That is an interesting perspective I hadn't really explored. We aren't living together per se, but spent all but 1-2 nights a month together for 6+ months. I don't go to my place for days at a time... the money was a gradual shift.

From getting groceries... to the telephone bill now and then... up to rent... so that she wouldn't have to go to work because I didn't want her to. She didn't really want to either... but prefers that to a set schedule. If she was a cashier, I probably wouldn't be paying for anything but food (and have lots extra to then take her on the town, vacations, travel, etc - that we can't afford now)

I don't feel taken advantage of in that way... it was always, always my idea and decision. But you may be right that I feel taken advantage of in that if I'm going to pay 80% of your bills... you should 'sacrifice' doing what you want to do for money, and do something you don't, because you only have to work 15 hours a week instead of 40. And if it makes me happy, 15 hours a week isn't so bad...

I haven't consciously thought that... but maybe that's what's happening.. and obviously not healthy.


Thanks.

I still think it may be a good idea to try and help her find a job she enjoys. Look for something in entertainment.
Like where I live they film a lot of movies and they are always looking for extras. Or if you have a place like a theatre that does plays or dancing.



She is a musician. She's working with a local artist who is on a small label and does have paying gigs at some fairly famous (50-200 people) venues. They are working on some collaboration... and expect her to take the stage in a few months.

Of course she was thinking about how to market herself and made a comment about being able to tell guys at her strip club to come see her perform downtown... generate a crowd, following, etc. She's obviously nice to look at and that helps musicians of course. And of course I just feel a resentment to... ok, you're going to get paid for singing (great voice), and still go strip as a cross-marketing effort? I can logically see that... but inside I just see my own feelings of this never-ending...

Dancing's just not a big deal to her. Which in some ways is healthy as opposed to girls that are emotionally invested in the power trip or other sexuality issues... and I guess I feel that as hard as I've tried to deal with it to 'get by' for awhile... her motivation for stopping seems to be deteriorating (I grow less secure, I get distant and lose my intimacy, she doesn't feel safe, she stops planning 'how to quit').

And at the end of the day, it's my inability to see what it means to her and her pride and independence to quit on her own terms. At the end of the day if I had embraced it fully 6 months ago... made her feel accepted and committed to and cared for her feelings... I think she would have the confidence to quit without feeling like I'm just going to dislike something else about her, leave, and she'll be left feeling like she gave me 'everything' and I still left. And she doesn't want that.

And instead I worry inside if she's 'well-adjusted' because of her disdain for having a boss and a fixed schedule for work. Don't we all? Is 'being an artist personality' an excuse to avoid responsibility? Until I stop weighing her love for me against everything else... she doesn't love me enough to quit, she doesn't love me enough to quit causing me pain because she doesn't want to be a waitress and get stiffed on the tip every now and then...

And in order to not feel like an , instead of saying, it is just about my security, I say, well, if I'm in pain I can't make you feel loved. I CAN'T feel the same security, so you are hurting your own ability to be loved by continuing doing this... bah. Yes, I annoy myself at times.

I know somebody with an "artist" personality, too. No nine-to-five for her! In fact, she was completely incapable of being on time for anything. It was borderline charming when she was young. Now she's forty-five years old and living off her parents. Not to say this will happen to your sweetie, but realistically, a time will approach when stripping isn't a viable option.

I don't like working my 8 to 5 job or working at my second job, but I do it because it is going to provide me a future and stability. It also provides me insurance and helps me save up for my retirement. Sometimes you have to think smart and think about your future and do things that you don't want to do at the time to better your future.

It doesn't seem like your girlfriend is thinking about her future, she is thinking about what she wants to do right now. I wish that I could find a job that I liked that I could only work a few hours a week and make that kind of money, but I don't because I am thinking about my future. Like Ren6 stated, she will not always be able to strip, so what is she going to do when she gets to old to strip and she is 50 years old with no experience in any other field or has no education? How will she support herself then?

Maybe you should go that route when you talk to her and ask her: What is she going to do if she gets sick and needs to go see a doctor with out having insurance? (unless she is on yours or has insurance another way) What is her plan for when she is to old to strip? What are her plans for her future? Does she see herself stripping at 40 years old? Does she have any goals in life? What would her children (if she ever has any) think about her when they grow up knowing that their mom was a stripper?

It isn't that hard to get a stripping job back after you have quit either. My best friend has quit stripping a number of times and has gone back, so if she did quit and you two didn't work out she could always go back and she really wouldn't be losing out on anything if she quit stripping for you.

It doesn't sound like she wants to stop stripping because it is the easy way out, and that is okay, if that is what she wants. But, if that isn't want you want and you can't change it, then you need to choose whether you can handle this or not. Whether you should be in this relationship or not.

I know that you accepted her for being a stripper in the beginning, but you also didn't see the relationship going anywhere. Now you do and you are uncomfortable with her work. (which is totally understandable) You have every right to feel that way, but you can't change her and what she wants to do. And it is not fair of you to give her an ultimatum. You can either deal with her stripping and find some way to get over this issue, or you can separate and go your different ways (if she doesn't want to stop stripping and you still want her to). You need to look toward your future and see what you want in life. There are many fish out in the sea and you can find someone else if this doesn't work out for you.

Try asking her questions about her future and where she sees herself in 20 years. Try to talk to her to see what her future plans are and then go from there and make a decision.

My boyfriend is a musician. I am hoping to get a permit for a picnic at the park so he can play there and invite people that might help get him somewhere.

This relationship isn't going to work, because the OP is too possessive to believe in his woman. It's JUST a job.


Yes, the last posts have defined how I feel about 'compromise and get another job' and her very valid feelings of, another job is restrictive and doesn't have the benefits that are very important to her.


I feel like I'm fighting between the forces of wanting to believe in her, accept her... and my own personal feelings that defines certain things as part of our intimacy.

And that I'm changing my beliefs in order to try to be with her, as opposed to truly believing that my beliefs are based on false, if common male tendencies of possessiveness and jealousy.

I have de-programmed a lot in that way. And she has compromised by working as little as possible, allowing me to come watch her work (even if it means she'll make less money) - but that even with that... she doesn't feel trusted and accepted.

I'm aware, I'm trying. I just don't know the tools to use to 'get there'. At times I've felt the freedom and strength in having something so deep with her that being naked on stage doesn't make me feel threatened.

I'm not 'losing' something that I can't define when it happens. But the last 3 weeks have been the strongest the pendulum has swung in the opposite direction and it's been devastating to us.

We've gotten in a financial jam... and I'm depressed because the only way out is for her to work. And the more of that energy I've felt, the more jealous I've become...

It's almost a catch-22 because I don't want her to go be a whore and find a way to rake in $500 in a night... but when she comes home with $80 it feels like I'm selling my own comfort and values and integrity for... $10/hr.

I want to be a more mature person here... I just don't know where the line is between becoming who you want... and accepting who you are.

Do what you want but I don't believe she would quit working at this club because you want her to, if she wants to she will continue working there.

She seems like a bad decision girl, if your going to date her you need to accept that she might continue working there.

It's almost a catch-22 because I don't want her to go be a whore

I know many a whore that never took their clothes off on stage.

What's worse, a girl that goes from one guy to the next, lying to each of them only to take what she wants and leave him and emotional wreck for no reason other then he trusted her or a nude woman? Honestly, I could walk into any strip club in North America and find women who I have never met and trust more then some of the whore's I've dated or seen my friends date.

This goes back to my piont, you are not dating the woman at home, you are dating the woman at work. Maybe she's a whore to other guys, maybe she's a whore to some of the idiotic close minded posters on this board who have never been to a strip club, but she's your girlfriend. The moment you start thinking she's a whore you've got problems. She gets that mentality everywhere else she goes, and the reason you wound up with her is because you treated her and valued her as more then that. Now your starting to do what everybody else who wants her and fantasies about her does. SHE deserves better from you, because SHE trusted enough in you to not treat her like a whore, but like the woman behind the dancer.

I guess what we're trying to point out here is that you are judging her because of her job.

If you were a nuclear physicist, would you want everyone to think you're a murderer, because you work with nukes? I mean, come on! That's the worst thing you can do with nukes, and where the money is, right? So you couldn't POSSIBLY be anything but a murderer! You couldn't POSSIBLY be an environmentalist looking for alternate fuel sources. You couldn't POSSIBLY still be a father and be a physicist/murderer. You couldn't be a husband, or a vegan, or a baseball coach for little league, or a volunteer firefighter, because you're defined ONLY by your job, and what OTHER people think of your job, not YOUR reasons for doing it.

That is EXACTLY what you are doing to her. Think of your own job, and the absolute worst, negative, malicious thing that could be said about it. Cop? You must be crooked. Politician? You must be a sellout and a liar. Firefighter? You must be gay, to sleep with all those guys all the time! Military--you HAVE to like torturing people! Businessman? Bet you embezzle and inside trade!

Do YOU want to be judged by your JOB? Whatever it is, it's not who YOU are, is it? I don't think of my husband at work and think, "oh, since he works in a department of all women, and they go out to the bar for a beer and a burger after work sometimes, he's OBVIOUSLY getting some from the women at work, and even if he's not, they have to want him, since he's the only guy there". That's counter productive to a relationship.

Basically, you have to remember that she isn't her job. That's not who SHE is.

Threads merged and edited.


I'm quickly coming to the conclusion that as much as I can try to 'deal with it' – I'll never be emotionally secure enough, happy enough, and feel intimate enough with her, to be able to share the specialness in our relationship that was the whole reason we were together. We both come with a decent amount of baggage, but we accepted it because we were so in love, desperately, for so very, very long. Much longer than any normal 'honeymoon' period we have ever had with anyone else.

My question is this - how do I describe the feelings of pain I go through? Even to myself to adequately read and write the words that capture what I'm feeling.

I don't want it to sound selfish or just based on shallow, emotional insecurity or weakness. I'm not some barbaric guy with a huge fat ego. There is just a pain that I can't put my finger on. Is it my own self-esteem? If so, how do I describe that? Is it loss of respect?

I don't want to exaggerate it, but it is something like, feeling drained, humiliation, worthlessness, the loss of something sacred and intimate between us. Because I so much want to support her. I so much want to feel like I'm emotionally strong enough to say that these aesthetic things shouldn't have value in our bond with each other. She asks why the other 6 days a week we spend together when she isn't working can't be what our intimacy is based on. Loss of exclusivity, a value on feeling special and unique to share her visual naked body with others….

I just don't know how to describe it to her….so that I can just get it out there, let her feel it, understand it, without her feeling like I'm drowning her in my own emotions – so we can see how we can deal with it. Or what we need to do, what steps to take, to see if we are ever able to deal with it. Or if it is just a downward spiral that inevitiably ends in us breaking up. I've held in a lot of resentment, swallowed a lot of anger, and I don't ever want that to explode on her; like it has in the past when something completely unlrelated released all my pain on to her and there was way too much yelling and kicking of chairs.

In the past we've discussed it... and I grow in security and comfort and I've verbally supported her, taken her shopping for new clothes and been able to be there for her... she can logically show me the silliness of my jealousy... until the night comes and I'm home alone waiting for her to come back...

You be open and honest with her, tell her how you feel and that you don't think it's going to work out because you can't handle the career path she has chosen. No one is going to blame you, I couldn't date a stripper, not a lot of people would be able to

I don’t think it is a trust issue any longer. For awhile I did worry that maybe she did things that she wouldn’t admit to me that she actually did when giving lap dances. She told me this whole story of how she dances to avoid the most ‘intimate’ things that are quite common. And she’s very smart and studies how to arouse a man, in order to keep him wanting more, without just going and grabbing his crotch. That sensuality can be in the eyes, touching their head, breathing in their ear….and make all the money she needs. She doesn’t need $500 a night and let some guy molest her for 10 dances in order to get it. $30-40 from the stage and $50-100 in dances and she’s done for the night.

What I’ve been feeeling lately though is not lack of trust, but simply the knowing of the things that she does do. For a stripper, it is extremely tame. But in the past I was OK with her dancing on stage, I loved it when she could make half or more of her dollars in a night just going across the strages without anyone ever even touching her or sitting with anyone. That let’s you be very selective who to sit with. I had gotten OK at her sitting with people and casually putting their hands on her arms, legs, the side of her , giving her a backrub, etc. And the dancing she says she would occaisionally brush a guys cheek with the outside of her breast, hit him on his legs or beltline with her during the dance so she doesn’t have to touch his crotch with her , and all manner of little tricks to keep the contact to a minimum.

She says she can’t keep guys from grabbing her when she goes to a bar downtown, in there it is harder. She minimizes it by moving, but if you act like a and get rude with them, there walks your money…so it may take a few seconds.

We’ve discussed it and she basically says she doesn’t have eyes in the back of her head, so they can reach and grab occaisionally and she can’t stop it or intercept immediately. If he keeps it up after she moves his hands, she’ll quit dancing for him after that song when she’s forced to grab his damn arms and hold them in place. I respect all of that, as far as dancers go that is about as clean as you can ever get.

But in our conversations to know exactly what goes on for my peace of mind……she basically admits that there are times, with some guys, she’ll let them grab her . It’s all a gray area as to how much is too much, how much is sliding the hands and how much is kneading it like bread. And I’m just exhausted in thinking and stressing about it.


I don't want to give her an ultimatum. I don't know how to tell her that this is the reason for so many of our problems (or the underlying reasons behind my feelings, shallow, selfish or not), but I don't know how to tell her I just think it is unreasonable for me to stay in a relationship where I'm miserable all of the time. Even if I can agree with all of her logic why I shouldn't be.

I will just finish with some of her quotes, to give an idea of her perspective. And hell, some of the reasons I've been able to be convinced to keep trying over and over... because I truly believe she is a very good person, and deserves someone who will trust her, support her, believe in her, and not emotionally damage the relationship because of their own jealousy, possessiveness, and insecurity. I have a guilt complex also so I'm fairly quick to blame myself for these quite rational feelings... and quickly turn to her side of the discussion...

-------------------------


“I want my freedom back, without feeling like i'm asking you to make some huge sacrifice, when all i'm really asking you to do is trust me.... and i have to wonder why that's so hard.”

“you want me to assure you that this will not happen again, that you can feel trust that I have a handle on it, and I will conduct myself with dignity. Yet you have to find some way to trust me and afford me that dignity.”

“and I am also asking you for the same respect you would expect in regards to your job and coworkers. If you want it to be just a job, then you have to stop making it about something sexual, or some kind of ownership, or some like that... and let me do the job as a job, without all the personal that unfortunately makes it feel like less of a job and more of an affair I'm having with someone else.”

“Well that was my world, my life, my income, my ability to support myself, and you just disregarded the importance of it as a job, and fell into it just like everyone else and brought my personal buisness, my personal life, things that are supposed to be seperate and under my control... into that club.... and it did effect me. You may question my ability to deal with it as a job, but it is your inability to deal with it as a job, that has caused us the most problems.... and brings some additional pressures that I've never had to deal with before.”


“I feel guilty for going to work, I feel guilty for not going to work, I feel guilty for appreciating the freedom of that job, I feel guilty because as much as you say you don't want me to quit for you... I did... because I couldn't deal with it anymore. I feel like there's something wrong with me because I like doing that job more than I don't. Sure yes I can find and do intend to find at some point a "real job" or something more appropriate to being someone's wife in this society... but I would like to do that at my own pace, without a bunch of pressure... ”


“And that even though say you were trying to express feelings of your own, you are just really expressing the same insecurities you've been expressing since day one... and that's a long time... and what else can I say or do... repeat myself endlessly and say over and over again I AM NOT A WHORE!“


I just want to go to work, and pay my bills, and not have to deal with more more more pressure in doing so. No I don't want to sit with my boyfriend and take his money when I can do it myself! I don't want to be a charity case at my job too. I don't ever want to feel the other pressures I was feeling in combination with, the only guy that will give me money is my man... talk about loss of dignity. You know when I don't need money and you come in it's different, when I can just off all night with you and not worry about having to get money from you if I do that it's different... 'What I need from you is to just let me have part of my life back, and trust that I understand the importance of our relationship and your feelings, and let me do what I want to and need to do, without a bunch of other feelings glogging up the fact that it's a job, and if you will let me do it as a job it will be a job, but if you continue to view it as "my other lover" we are never going to be ok”


“Find a way to trust me, my heart, and my feelings for you. Trust that I respect you more than that, that I respect my damn self more than that. “


“I feel more and more as time passes and the same insecurities are not ever laid to rest, that you will never have faith or believe that I love you and want to be with you, and would do my damndest to try not to hurt you.... that you will always assume the worst and act accordingly, and that in the end I will be the one that ends up hurt because you can't let go of your fears and stop judging me in the worst possible light (until you talk to me, but not after you make a fool of me, or break some )”


“When is it my turn, when do you give back to me what i gave, and just trust me and comfort me and support me... without making it about you .... can this one thing this one time be about me... and what i need... and what you are willing to deal with within yourself in order to be there for me... instead of me having to in the midst of everything trying to deal with how not to set you off, or how to have a 3 hour conversation with you about your feelings when all I can see right now is my wrecked car, and $1,400 in bills... and the fact that i am letting my mother down (she’s mentally unstable) by not doing something.... and these are my feelings but we can't get to them through yours, and it's frustrating, and a little heart breaking”

It is always your choice, you stay or you go, you don't demand she change from how she was when you meet.

I still don't understand what you want. You want to stay because you sound like you do, you just don't want her to dance. Your not getting that option and if you can't take it, then you need to man up and be honest with her, because she deserves to hear that you feel like you are sharing her and you can't. She hears the BS at the club, if you are going to break up with her, she has earned the right to the truth.

It doesn't seem like you've made a lot of head way. This is always going to be an issue for you (trust me, it would be a big issue for me!), and your girlfriend is clearly unwilling to find another form of employment. You're tired of knowing she's being mauled by horny dudes when she goes to her job, and she's tired of the endless conversations about your feelings. Maybe the two of you need to put this relationship to rest.

All the mental acrobatics in the world won't make you "o.k." with what she does. As wonderful as she is, there are other wonderful women out there who aren't strippers.

Good luck...

I think your at a point where its not about her job any more, but the way you deal with your own feelings. You can't just wish it would go away, and you can't just throw your feelings at her. If you cannot quietly handle yourself for that one night a week, or whenever she is at work, then your making your issues hers, but not dealing with them in a positive proactive way.

To be honest, this will never work, because you really want her job to go away, and it ain't. That means YOU go away, simply because you cannot accept that it is, what it is, and not likely to change.

I guarantee she will leave any way, when she has had enough of your continued inability to deal with the reality of your own making. Your simply not adjusting to HER reality very well. (not easy for any one to, realisticly)

I think she already knows that your feelings are typical of some guys, but that won't mean she will put up with it. Nor should she have to.

Your are not compatible enough to sustain this relationship at this time because you can't work together to solve your issues to the benefit of you both.

This relationship won't go that far. In the future don't date strippers and expect them to change because you want them to. It don't work that way.

I really see this as YOUR problem, not hers.

YOU can't deal with it.

So... leave.

If you REALLY don't want to leave, you HAVE to think of it as her JOB, and not as her "other lover". No choice on that.

So... your choices are this:
1. Leave
2. Accept that she is a dancer, it's her job, just like you'd have to accept her job if she was a secretary in an all male envirionment.

You have no other options. SHE should not have to quit her job for YOU. Would you quit your (lucrative) job for her? Would you throw away a job you like, that you're good at, and that makes a lot of money just because your girlfriend didn't like some of the people you work with? Or didn't like your clients? Of course you wouldn't! You'd think she was overly demanding to even ask!

BUT--if you can't switch the way you think, I suggest you move on. You have absolutely NO RIGHT to ask her to change.

First off, ultimatums don't work, especially when it's her job. Secondly, if you can't genuinely support her, faking it won't cut it, she'll leave you before you leave her. You're just setting yourself up for heartbreak.

If you have doubts, and you certainly do, break it off now so you can protect your ego and then you won't have to come back here asking everyone on here how to get her back.

Threads merged for the whole story.

Short form question – my girlfriend and I are now in a very unhealthy relationship. I want to know what strategy to pursue to communicate I want to end it. She's cheated on me. I accused her of it but never presented any facts. I snooped her email but don't want to admit that. I'd done it once before a year ago and promised not to do it again.

I do want this to end as amicably as possible; giving me the best chance at closure, and her the least damage as possible.

I don't want to throw out all the facts, basically calling her a lying whore, and walk away. If I admit to snooping, it's just more justification for what she did perhaps. But I have enough other facts that it is a hard way ti lie herself out of anyway.

Nor do I want to just tell her this just isn't working for me, and then see me as another jealous and suspicious guy that was too weak and had simply had no reason to not trust her since I never even confronted her.

I'd like me to get the closure and self-respect I need – I already feel humiliated and destroyed – but I'd like for her to see enough truth to understand that half of the stupid things I did was because of her actions – until now she's just pointed to all my flaws and said I need to work on 'me' and not on 'us' right now, because I'm the one that keeps not trusting her and breaking her boundaries.



And the deep details for those with more time and interest (THANK YOU!!!):

Just had 2 year anniversary with my girlfriend. The first 1.5 years felt like the real thing, fantastic romantic love, one of a kind soulmate, gets ME in every way, etc, etc. I'm 35. Was married for 5 years. This was the most amazing relationship I'd ever been in. Though there were some capatibility issues regarding her work, her previous kids, she's a night-owl that likes to stay at home, I'm a daytime adventurer, etc.

About 3 months ago we started falling apart... I did some things wrong in regards to my ex-wife - I didn't sleep with her but basically made my girlfriend feel betrayed or unsafe that I might go back to her. There were 2-3 small-medium events over the course of 9 months or so. I take accountability for that.

But in response my girlfriend pulled away, I became insecure and suspicious and broke a few of her boundaries – some she knew about and was angry at, and eventually I read her email and found the proof – though she didn't know that. I finally gave in and snooped and found email evidence that she said to her lover "I cheated on him, so that tells me that my feelings obviously aren't what they used to be. I love him but wasn't in love with him anymore."

I was mortified and in the worst pain of my life. I did struggle with my own guilt for causing this environment, all the while trying to reaffirm there's never a reason to cheat. And of course then the big conundrum, what to do? Confront her with the evidence that shows you were spying, or simply walk away and never get that closure. If you give her the facts that I did gain honestly, it might be enough to show that I'm not being just another jealous that doesn't trust her.

I was devastated obviously. We had a big blow out and she wanted to 'start over completely' with me. Right or wrong, I tried to understand and decide if I could forgive her. She had a right to be angry and hurt, but not to go outside the relationship. A month later and we were much, much closer again - our affection and fun and love had come back. Her lover had left the state on business for 2 months so I knew she wasn't cheating still. And I wanted to confront her but never could. Then he came back. He was back a week and had written her to come to him. She didn't write him back; not even to say she was re-committed to me. Nor did she go to him.

We got into another big argument and she was yelling at me how good she had been to me. In the last month she had been amazing and self-sacrificing to make me happy; she made true efforts to build what we used to have. But in her constant attacks on me about how good she was, I yelled back, "so you never lied to me, you never cheated on me?"

Well, in her mind I was just another man calling her a whore and not trusting her. That was always a hot-button item for her and she turned it into the obvious defensive mechanisms or sarcasm and outrage.

We didn't talk for days. And now just are in limbo. It's obvious we need to end this. I must break the fantasy of, if I can just keep her happy and satisfied, she'll always stay faithful. I guess that's every person, right? But we're going to hurt each other and let each other down... it's what you do then that truly matters.

I'd hurt her many times and she'd always bounced back... this time I think she just felt differently... more hurt, more angry, completely unsafe and insecure, and fully aware that after almost 2 years, I still hadn't fully accepted who she was since she knew she could never be a 'traditional' wife. And it was proof I didn't love her enough to give up my dreams of how I wanted my life to be... lifestyle does matter.

Anyway, I just worry so much about not getting my closure if I just walk away. I've been cheated on in the past, and I could never begin to heal until they admitted it... or I could at least tell them what I thought happened or knew happened.
It will be true grief and loss for many weeks and months... I don't want to make it worse by feeling lack of self-respect by feeling like not only did I not confront her, she is going to simply see my failures as a guy that was too jealous and suspicious and never had a reason to not trust her, good riddance if you don't want to keep trying and want to leave.


I do love this woman. I do think she's been in a lot of unhealthy relationships in the past. I don't want to pile on her and destroy her already weak self-image by knifing out a confession from her and in effect actually calling her a lying whore. But neither do I want to just walk away and have her think that there goes another man that didn't trust me for no reason. Or for stupid reasons phone calls from male friends too late at night. Those simply aren't the reasons I doubt her; but in her mind I have no other proof - after waiting 6 weeks since anything happened, she's got to imagine I would have confronted her long ago.

Part of me wants to tell her how I see the last 3 months happening – that it wasn't some deep character flaw within me that made me clingy and suspicious, since she was actually cheating though I had no proof yet. And then present a portion of my facts. And how I didn't know what to do because we were already doing better when I started filling in the final pieces.

Or do I just walk away... and let time be the healer.

That tit for tat stuff to get even, is childish. You simply tell her your feelings have changed, and you see no future with her, and since the love is gone, so are you.

The way your trying to do things is immature and messy. Now make a fast clean break so you can get beyond this.

Break ups hurt, even under the best conditions, so she will have to deal with it, as will you.

That tit for tat stuff to get even, is childish. You simply tell her your feelings have changed and you see no future with her and since the love is gone, so are you.

The way your trying to do things is immature and messy. Now make a fast clean break so you can get beyond this.


Oh.

Ok. My intentions were truly in the best interest of both of us... but I can see your point that my closure, my moving on should be about me and my path - and not about what I do or don't communicate to her. If that indeed is what you're trying to say.

Thanks.

That's exactly what I was saying. In trying to spare her feelings about a break up( which you can't do) you do more harm than good and all you can do is be civil, and direct.

That tit for tat stuff to get even, is childish. You simply tell her your feelings have changed, and you see no future with her, and since the love is gone, so are you.

The way your trying to do things is immature and messy. Now make a fast clean break so you can get beyond this.

Break ups hurt, even under the best conditions, so she will have to deal with it, as will you.



Can someone change the title of this question. I know it was merged, but thought I would get a lot more responses with a new title... no one is going to read through all of this or comment... her job is really a moot point here and it's misleading.


No trust left, how best to break up for true closure?

I no longer feel the same way about you, somewhere along the way our destinations changed and I feel it's best if we both go our separate ways

Honestly, from what you've wrote she's expecting this conversation at some point. You are not fooling her into thinking everything is perfect, she knows it's not and is just keeping you around to take herself down before she takes herself out. You might as well do it first.

Seems to me every response will be about the same. So just do it, and be done.

Honestly, from what you've wrote she's expecting this conversation at some point. You are not fooling her into thinking everything is perfect, she knows it's not and is just keeping you around to take herself down before she takes herself out. You might as well do it first.


Thanks... this was a good answer. Unfortunately I'm just about genetically programmed to not be able to do 'brevity'. Thanks for the forum... I'll do my best.

Can someone change the title of this question. I know it was merged, but thought I would get a lot more responses with a new title...no one is going to read through all of this or comment....her job is really a moot point here and it's misleading.


No trust left, how best to break up for true closure?

HARSHNESS ALERT.

Her job a 'moot point'?? How quickly you forget the long involved posts you wrote.

My view is that you were always trying to find the trigger which would give you the excuse for finishing the relationship. You always saw yourself as the victim to her sexuality because of her job. Your insecurity and jealousy drove a wedge between you as you kept obsessing about what she did with other men when she danced. You couldn't let it go.

The things we most fear are the things we most often create. The magic wand of your fear has manifested an infidelity and now your fears and obsession are justified. You can now safely say that it was all her fault and feel magnanimous in wanting to end the relationship gently, whilst bleating about how painful it will be for you to get over it (another obsession in the making).

At least be honest with yourself and stop being such a martyr.

Let her know that you're unable to be in the relationship any more and take responsibility for your part in it. If you end it, for heaven's sake don't contact her any more. Continue to get professional help for your tendency to humiliate and destroy yourself.

WAkE UP CALL!!!!
You are worried about being gentle and easy going on her. IS she being even half that considerate with your feelings?
SHE --IS cheating YOU --put up with it!
Get OUT asap

There should be no ''what about this and what about'' that about it!

Say she decides she likes another guy better enough to dump you do you think she is going to be sitting around asking about how to go about it??

NOPE Its going to be OUT THE DOOR BUD, MAKING WAY FOR THE NEW MAN IN MY LIFE.

WAkE UP CALL!!!!
You are worried about being gentle and easy going on her. IS she being even half that considerate with your feelings?
SHE --IS cheating YOU --put up with it!
get OUT asap

There should be no ''what about this and what about'' that about it!

Say she decides she likes another guy better enough to dump you do you think she is going to be sitting around asking about how to go about it???

NOPE Its going to be OUT THE DOOR BUD, MAKING WAY FOR THE NEW MAN IN MY LIFE.


Thank you. I've just not had the sense to do the right thing 2 months ago - and it only has led to us hurting each other far, far more.

She ed around 2 months ago. We rebuilt 'something' where she felt safe again, but in my anger I accused her of lying and cheating. She feels like whore, she's always hated that. Been badly damaged person because of that. And in trying to find a way to tell her I don't think she's a whore, but that she obviously lied about this one particular thing... she doesn't want to talk about it. She's avoiding me. She wanted to leave feeling like a whore behind in her past... and now when a 'good man' catches her ing up, she knows it...

I've found proof that she ed around AGAIN since that fight and more proof to a DIFFERENT guy saying she wanted to with him basically.

These are guys that she admitted she had kissed in the past, but always said she never slept with. Obviously when the man she used to love 'calls her a whore', she's now running and out and saying, of, you think I'm a whore? I'll show you a whore.

I'm hurt, but I'm so sad for her. I fell like if I could do anything, it would be to stop her from that self-destructive behavior. I guess I only created it by not calmly walking away 2 months ago.

I do care about her. I'm not trying to blame myself here other than for poor judgement and lack of honesty. Is there anything I should do other than just end it w/ as few words as possible now?

I can walk away, tell I *WAS* a suspicious and jealous that didn't have any real proof and my own issues with being cheated on in the past. Try to just take all the blame for everything I did... maybe she won't feel like such trash that she keeps acting out.

And then tell her that when we were happy, no one has treated me as well as she did. And that part is true.

Or maybe I just stop trying to manage her altogether. I can't save her... and when someone is this damaged, it is too easy to injure them so them just tear themselves apart.

and saying, of, you think I'm a whore? I'll show you a whore.

I'm hurt, but I'm so sad for her. I fell like if I could do anything, it would be to stop her from that self-destructive behavior. I guess I only created it by not calmly walking away 2 months ago.

This alone is enough to say it is her problem. She choose to 'resolve' problems this way so this alone is enough to show that she isn't serious about actuallu fixing anythung.

This alone is enough to say it is her problem. She choose to 'resolve' problems this way so this alone is enough to show that she isn't serious about actuallu fixing anythung.


Absolutely. I had advice a month ago to walk away and not even approach the subject with her. She couldn't handle it. I didn't take that advice and now...

I just thought if there was some way to boost her self-image back as I walk away... it's her fault she chose to do the things to me she did when we had problems. Just feel guilty for hurting her more by making her confront it... but maybe I'm looking at it wrong.

In her psychology, sex is how to deal with everything she feels deeply... how to move on from being betrayed, etc, etc.

The beginning of the end for us was when I found a journal that showed how she went and had sex with someone to basically make herself feel better because she was embarrassed publicly by the guy she liked. She ed his friend. Ed him 'loud'. It was 4 years ago. And my heart broke reading it. Because I guess that was the sign I needed... and wanted to believe she'd changed.

Well, she felt humiliated by me... as often happens in a relationship... and here we go again.

Just walk away. You don't have to justify, rationalize or anything. She KNOWS and NO words are necessary.

Biggest proublem here

You tried to turn a stripper into a housewife

Doesn't work

biggest proublem here

you tried to turn a stripper into a housewife

doesnt work

Actually not the biggest problem here. It would require reading the thread though.

....and here we go again.


The only person riding the merry go round is you at this point. She knows the relationship is over. She's just keeping you around until she finds something else. You on the other hand are making all these rules about the break up. I have to do this before I can do that, and she must be here before I can go there, A comes before B and it just keeps going on and on.

Just end. Just tell her the truth. You no longer trust her, she doesn't trust you, and before it gets any worse you'd think it's best for both parties to go there separate ways. It's not like everything is going perfect and this going to blow her out of the water. She knows it's not, she knows the break up is coming. So be calm but firm and do it.

You can't move forward in your life until you do this and really neither can she so in that regard you are actually doing something good for her if you need to feel some kind of justification or kindness from this, at least know that.

I read it
I was going to the very beginning

Chuff, and Zippit are both right, The experiment failed and its time to go, as it gets more complicated through over thinking, and inaction.

Well how about you look at it from her stand point. I was a dancer for 7 years. (Strippers make house calls) We entertain for our money. It is NOT freedom it is living in a mirror and making your money based on what other people expect you to look/act like. Dancing does bring in a lot of money the money brings some form of freedom cause you can have what you want when you want it. I started seeing a guy, 3 months in he said quit dancing or... So I quit dancing. Now I am in a relationship where he may or may not want to commit to me at all. I have given up my independce. I have to ask for money and feel the guilt of that. It's not like I haven't tried to find a job I have applied at almost 30 places from office work to fast food.
That being sad. What is it exactly about her dancing that really gets your goat? All dancers are different. If she works somewhere there are no rules that's one thing. So tell her she can dance all day and all night if that is what she wants to do but only at a club with rules no touching. No grinding on other guys mommy daddy parts because it's a form of cheating. I was the cleanest dancer around. You may not like my dance cause I didn't rub you off. But I could sleep at night and anyone who knew what I did at work knew I wasn't close to cheating.
You have to be honest. You have to know the reality that dancing is addictive, the money the attention. The lies that world can breed can be intimiating. You need to make the call, are you dating a stripper or an entertainer.

(Strippers make house calls) what??
. It is NOT freedom it is living in a mirror and making your money based on what other people expect you to look/act like.
.

What are you trying to say?

When you are a dancer there is no freedom in it. You live in the mirror meaning you do nothing but focus on what you look like every second of your workday. Hours doing hair and makeup changing clothes. Wondering does this make me look fat. That isn't freedom. It is being bound to everyone else's opinion. And the thought"is she worth a dollar. Or 20"

When you are a dancer there is no freedom in it.

Then you leave the job. Nobody has freedom in their job, they are working for the employer.

Either way, this doesn't really address the point of the OP.

If you give a girl an ultimatem, the will take the one you don't want them to.

Update for those that have followed:

Well, I've not follow too much good advice here, but I've made some progress.

As things deteriorated throughout September... we had some good times together, I continued to stay distant and not confront her... I guess I kept waiting to see just how far things would go - as someone said, capacity to humiliate myself.

She lied about staying home and sleeping when she actually went out... sent a few more emails to some people with very suggestive language... all the while trying to convince me that we needed some distance but she needed her life back, wanted to 'date' again and do whatever we needed to make sure we could stay in each others' lives, have some fun, until we were both in a place we could be vulnerable and trust each other again.

We had a few small talks; I made several attempts to tell her I didn't trust her, allude to the damage she had done to me... she seemed to accept it w/o admitting the details.

Until I finally wrote her and told her I was extremely unhappy, our trust was gone, our intimacy dissolving, and we were on the road to being completely over. How did she feel...

Her response was... to ask if I had time to talk the next day or the day after. I asked about that very night, she said she wasn't planning for any deep discussions tonight. Then didn't answer her IM's or email, drove out of town to see a band, and came back at 4am. She called me at 4am, said she had come by my place and knocked and I didn't answer. That's ridiculous it didn't wake me up. I asked why she didn't call me when she was standing outside my door. Something about not seeing my car, blah blah... b.s.

Then she wrote me the next day: "our options are try to build a relationship with you as you are now, that still protects me from the things that you are unable to alter at this time. That keeps us from fighting and hurting and lieing and all the that has not changed over the last two years....and wont anytime soon.

All I know is I can't be completely vulnerable to you as you are now, and that is not going to change without time. I don't know if it will be the end of our relationship or the beginning of something better, I can't know.... all I do know is I care about you and I want to keep you in my life, and I want us to find some fullfilment in that, and just go from there.

It's not going to feel the same ever again, it can't. Our relationship will never ever be what it was because everything is changed, but that doesn't mean it won't become something better, hell it should become something better, that's what I'm hoping for... but if the times we are having are not enough of something for you, I'm at a loss to know what else to do."


A week passed, we saw each other for simple, light hearted fun twice. We had two very deep discussions. I basically said I can't forget the last 4 months and just 'start over' a new relationship and build. I can't heal my broken heart w/o total honesty; I'm willing to try to forgive and not be judgemental - though I just wanted honesty between us before we could call it quits. That I was too suspicious and not trusting enough to go forward where we are now. I said I made many observations, I'm smart, and that I don't think she's been honest. That I was wrong for not bringing them up and confronting her months ago. That I never wanted to get into a 'yes you did; no I didn't' argument...


She said she was willing to talk about our problems. That bringing up things months and months old would just make her mad as I thought, she didn't want any more half in/half out commitments - and that I could talk to my therapist if I needed someone to talk to about dealing with my negative feelings of suspicion...

.. if I can't handle her going to see a band, and staying at an afterparty with "Bob" and his friends and family until 4:30am. Of course 2 years ago she told me Bob was just a friend... and a year later I found out she'd made out with him but she didn't want to tell me cause she didn't want me to be suspicious cause that was all in the past. I said I understood why she lied. But if she had sex with him, or anyone still in her life, I deserved to know. She agreed. Of course 5 weeks ago she went to the after party and she txted him the next day 'next time, hotel room.. ' and posted something about 'giving in again after 4 years' on her damn Facebook!! So I'm left with... not only did she cheat on me... it was with a guy that she obviously had slept with long ago and lied about it... and now is saying that I'm giving up on the relationship if decide I can't handle her going out with this guy.

She of course justified it all because 18 months ago I had kissed my ex-wife and threatened to go back to her... so none of this counts, it's all screwed up and let's just start over now.

Asked me to have a new perspective, what if we just met right now...

2 days later I sent her an email saying I can't see her anymore. I can't do what she asked, I can't trust her. That I want to give her more of her life back so she doesn't just sit at home waiting for me as much... let her go back to work and support that... but that I can't trust her, I can't pretend to not notice things I couldn't help but notice... I would be miserable and make her miserable.

She was pissed I sent it as an email. But since I couldn't do it in person, I had to. She called me a quitter, said she'd wasted 2 years of her life for me trying to get over my ex, lying about talking to her, cheating on her w/ my ex when she knew I had fooled around w/ my ex once when the divorce wasn't final yet... that THIS was the same situation and I could be able to sacrifice my comfort to be with her the way she did for me when I was getting out of my relationship.

I was thinking, she KNEW I was in the process of a divorce of a 7 year marriage... knew I had to still see her... yes, I hurt her all that time ago... but it had been almost 18 months and somehow she was seeing her affairs and me dealing with that as the same thing.

A day passed. She said she was shattered. Showed up at 2:30 in the morning. Didn't beg me to come back... but obviously upset... she wasn't angry anymore. Just shocked and hurt and rejected... and still felt it wasn't fair I wasn't going to endure the same 'suffering' she endured. Which of course at the time she said it wasn't suffering, just things she was willing to deal with and times that we always called the 'good old days' - until now, she is equating it to me dealing with her multiple infidelities and me crying and devastated everyday for 3 months.


So now I'm trying to get her out of my life... I'm like... how is all of this a surprise to you?? The day I said I was unhappy, we were going towards a road to be finished... you LIED to me and left the city to go see a band. THAT was your priority. A month ago you said you didn't want to be my girlfriend anymore, just 'date' me - which I guess is code for see other people though she would never admit that, merely justify it, and said our relationship and history was completely over... but we can start new if I want.

I guess just justifying the whole time that since she believed I was still considering trying to get back together with my ex, putting taking care of her as my 'ex' as a higher priority than her... that until I showed I was 100% done with her, she could just act out and be compulsive. I do admit that she had reasons to feel these things. I understand WHY she did them. I wasn't always good to her... but she chose to do this... and months after there was no doubt I just wanted to be with her... she was still doing this...

I certainly don't want to start over with her... given what a mess her life is, her job I can't stand, her infidelity she won't even admit to (honestly, there's enough here I could forgive if she wanted to do the actual steps at healing and not just ignoring it).

I am heart broken. I never confronted her directly about it, just the 'observations and perceptions' and told her she's been 'made' in an indirect way.

I wish I'd had. The advice here was good to just walk away... but with her semi-emotional abusive type of bull... even with what I said it still made me feel guilty about quitting and angry that each time she said that it wasn't fair for me to do this, or be sad about this, because she was the one getting lied to and cheated on back then...


Anyway. I'm trying to move forward. We did get together to trade our 'things'. And had a nice healing talk for a few hours. Straightened some things out. Cemented reasons we weren't healthy for each other.

But I still ache and miss her. Worry that I won't find someone that makes me feel like she did... but continue to see her life for what it is. The drugs that she explains away, the drama with her kids (more obvious bad judgement)...

It is so in my instinct to bring her back to me... but there are 100 reasons she's poison... I know I can't save her... and I know that for every hour of joy she brings me, I have lived through 4 hours of misery since April...

And without years of therapy for her, that will always be so...

Cold turkey isn't working well, I'm having such a hard time feeling cold to her, wanting her to understand that I love her, do want her... but does she just understand that what she's done is unforgivable given she wants the very things still in her life, that were the tools used to destroy me?

I just want to tell her that so badly... how could I ever make her happy for her, be happy for me, when all it takes is to see or hear the first name of "Bob" attributed to someone else - a store, a football player, a guy at my job... and not just feel heartbroken from the damage she inflicted me with this guy. I was with her a week ago and got a phone call from another state 'oh, that's weird, lol' - and yet I know where "Bob" has a gig this week... is it him? I don't know, it could be a coincidence - why would he not call from his local cell phone number? But still... it stopped me dead in my tracks and I had to grieve for 3 minutes internally until I could go back into denial and compartamentalize that '6 weeks ago' is now in the past...

It's easy to just say 'leave the lying whore alone' - but I hope someone can understand that is difficult. Especially when I'm already taking too much blame for her compulsive, reackless behavior, her emotional abuse of trying to 'punish me', disrespect me... withdraw from me... demanding distance from me, defining on her own that she must have her old social life back and independence from me... just to see me 1-2 times a week for 'dating' after almost living together for over a year... then blaming me for not putting in the effort... sigh.

Thank you greatly anyone that read this.

Sitting at home alone, trying to grieve and experience loss, and hopefully recovery on the way...

..demanding distance from me, defining on her own that she must have her old social life back and independence from me...just to see me 1-2 times a week for 'dating' after almost living together for over a year...then blaming me for not putting in the effort.....sigh.




How would someone compute this?

In my mind... the difference is that she KNEW going into this the risks involved. I was willing to be open and honest and discuss the pain, discuss where I screwed up... and she wants to equate all of the hell she went through (which was never defined as more than 'difficult' to the heart-wrenching pain I've suffered, over details she's not willing to discuss or admit to me. As if dealing with infidelity... and not being up to that challenge, is "not loving me through your doubts.."


Her to me, 24 hours after the break up:

"It was NO small sacrifice, It was an INORDINATE amount of patience, and it was an INCREDIBLE amount of support....

and I'm saying it would take the same from you, for us to make it past here....

and you have already decided you are incapable, that it is not worth what you will have to go through to accomplish it, that there is NO way you can do it...

therefore you are not my match, because you can not give to me what I have given to you... and it was not easy... but now you take the easy road, and run... that is why i feel like you quit... you may just be too weak, in any case we are not equally matched.

you have the right to quit, I acknowlege and accept that.
I have the right to feel like I wasted a bunch of effort on someone who wasn't willing to put that same effort in when the shoe is on the other foot....

you can't love me through your doubts, as I did you.... and I feel like I invested a bunch of time in someone who was never truly and still isn't committed to me or the relationship.

I am not asking anything of you, you did not once ask of me.... and you can't do it....

I am shattered."

Wow bluedog. Why do you keep doing this to yourself?

I can honestly feel your pain, I can. But I feel as if you have this huge serrated knife with which you keep stabbing yourself in the heart, again and again. Repeatedly.

What I can see from your most recent posts is that both you and your GF viewed the relationship in very different ways. However, what is also very clear is that you both feel that you have made a huge effort and many sacrifices to no avail. At some level, your efforts, hopes and dreams did not intersect. At some level you were not able to communicate or to understand each other. At some level you both had very different views about what was happening in the relationship.

I don't know and can't tell from your writings what the real story is. In the end it probably doesn't matter. What you really need to do is to move away from this and heal. You have issues with women and with trust - that has been clear from the start of this thread.

At some stage you mentioned you were seeing a counselor - it is essential that you keep doing this because you need to stop stabbing yourself in the heart if you are ever to lead a happy life.

Wow bluedog. Why do you keep doing this to yourself?

I can honestly feel your pain, I can. But I feel as if you have this huge serrated knife with which you keep stabbing yourself in the heart, again and again. Repeatedly.

What I can see from your most recent posts is that both you and your GF viewed the relationship in very different ways. However, what is also very clear is that you both feel that you have made a huge effort and many sacrifices to no avail. At some level, your efforts, hopes and dreams did not intersect. At some level you were not able to communicate or to understand each other. At some level you both had very different views about what was happening in the relationship.



I think you hit the nail on the head. We define some things very differently regarding what is essential for security and trust and intimacy to thrive.

Then environment that it did for me left her feeling trapped - I understand and respect that. But she would never give me the same respect back to understand why I would feel that way.

Even yesterday she sent an email to a friend of mine, saying how it was sad but we were moving on - and how it was for the best if after two years I still couldn't see what kind of woman she was and trust that she wouldn't be cheating.

But I've seen her lies with my own eyes - enough that the truth of actual intercourse doesn't matter if you're spending the night somewhere else. And I've seen her words say 'i must admit within myself I cheated on him... ' - and while I'm not waiting for her to admit it , I know part of me is waiting for her to take some lvl of responsibility. Because part of me still cares what she thinks for some reason. She knows. She knows. She knows.

I do not understand why I'm still looking for ways to get her to take that responsibility in some fashion. I know it can't change anything.

My experience in 2 years with her - she doesn't take responsibility for but .1% of anything - regardless if it is me, her family, the utility company, etc. It's always someone else doing something unreasonable and unable to live up to her superior set of morals or logical decision making.

Somehow being a good a man as I can and saying, 'i'm not going to accuse you of anything, but let's put it this way, I've seen things that make me unable to trust you, I'm sorry' - and walking away; has been hard.

The consistent invalidation, from a psychological and emotional abuse definition, has driven me crazy for I don't know how long. Trust issues? You shouldn't trust your own feelings. If she screws up and I eventually lose my patience, I am morally in the wrong for losing my patience, not that she was unaware and never apologized for being 2 hours late. That' why I keep doing this... fighting for validation.

I am still seeing my counselor.

Try: http://shrink4men.wordpress.com/

Might ring some bells.

Try: A Shrink for Men (http://shrink4men.wordpress.com/)

Might ring some bells.


Yeah. Wow. I've looked at Borderline before... and I can't tell you how many times I've sat in her room on Saturday morning, trying to start/plan the day, and she just talks away for an hour on the phone. No problem, I am understanding. I tell her I'm going to run make lunch, be back in an hour... and all hell breaks loose cause I just 'left'. Abandonment. Rejection... because I wanted to make her lunch...

------------

Chief among these is splitting, in which a person or thing is seen as all good or all bad.

Note that something which is all good one day can be all bad the next, which is related to another symptom: borderlines have problems with object constancy in people -- they read each action of people in their lives as if there were no prior context; they don't have a sense of continuity and consistency about people and things in their lives. They have a hard time experiencing an absent loved one as a loving presence in their minds. They also have difficulty seeing all of the actions taken by a person over a period as part of an integrated whole, and tend instead to analyze individual actions in an attempt to divine their individual meanings. People are defined by how they lasted interacted with the borderline.

---------

Thanks, Gemini!

I've been able to tell her, and she hear, that I think that what has happened is that no matter what I do, it is wrong.

She looks as this as my fault... my lack of confidence, I'm not being the confident 'me' I used to be, etc, etc. If I would only tell her my honest feelings, it wouldn't be this way, but I 'hide' them. Yeah, I guess I've learned to!!

Try: A Shrink for Men (http://shrink4men.wordpress.com/)

Might ring some bells.

And... this is the gold star winner.

Especially describer her 'clinger' phase --- how myself, and every other boyfriend I've heard about, is so very, very trapper and allured by her initial attentions...


How a Borderline Personality Disorder Love Relationship Evolves - Roger Melton, M.A. (http://www.bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a101.htm)



Agree??

And.........this is the gold star winner.

Especially describer her 'clinger' phase --- how myself, and every other boyfriend I've heard about, is so very, very trapper and allured by her initial attentions.....

How a Borderline Personality Disorder Love Relationship Evolves - Roger Melton, M.A. (http://www.bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a101.htm)

Agree???

I don't know her, so I can't tell. Only you can. From what is posted on this Forum however, women with these personality disorders are either increasing, or are being increasingly identified. Men too. Scary.

I only post this as some type of sharing catharsis...

We split up... and eventually started the blame game. Eventually I told her what I thought she had done. I left out the IM's and emails with her words saying she cheated on me. I laid out that I saw her with someone out, that I saw her car parked at another guy's house... that I know she lied about certain things that are simple facts.

And this is her response:



-----------------------------------------

I don't know why you are sending this now, if it's a closure thing or just a now that I have nothing to loose I can say all this stuff type of thing...

In the end I just know that I had completely NO idea you had all this junk in your head... and I can see clearly why you came to the conclusions you came too... I'm sorry you have been so tortured and could not tell me... and so the cycle goes... and what brought us to this point is forever immortalized in an email... lack of honesty...
I'm sorry if anything I did made you believe these things... I was faithful to you until last week... my explainations were not satisfactory, the reasons my feelings were running short were not satisfactory, the truth was not satisfactory... in the end there was no other person destroying us or invading your territory... as much as your doubt...

My feelings, where I kept trying to put you, was an genuine attempt to save our relationship, not for me to cat around. I see now that many questions I asked you, while trying to see where you were emotionally have just led to fortifying your position about what I 'must have been asking'... when I posted that song... it was about how I felt about you...

It's easier to loose than keep fighting you
I've got nothing left to prove
She said and gave in

Had absolutely nothing to do with anyone but you... wow

"i reach ahead in front of me and all i get is nothing..."

You were supposed to hear something else... and true to our relationship... that was not the case... and so after reading you letter, know I don't hate you... I don't regret, I know beyond knowing... we are SO wrong for each other...

We will never be able to be the relationship either of us wants... you want approval and I just want the damn truth... I am not you... I am not anything like you've seen before... the normal rules don't apply to me... I don't think like you or anyone else... so yeah I can see why you think what you think... but I'm looking for a man that doesn't default to that every time his feelings get hurt... and maybe that doesn't exist in which case I'm happy to be alone not to have to deal with this ever again. I would rather have my autonomy all day long then continue to defend myself against the assumptions of the scarlet A... and maybe you can understand that... not saying you are wrong for feeling like you do... but I am looking for someone who is capable of giving the gift back to me... acceptance approval unconditional love and a strong belief in where my heart lies... someone who sees the level of my dedication and trusts it... if I can't have that I don't want anything...

So I feel like you were exactly the stranger I imagined you to be... all things I didn't not know about how you felt... and I don't sleep with strangers... I don't risk getting pregnant by strangers... this was not ever about me finding anything anywhere else... what we lost we lost all our own.. there is no man or lack of morality you can blame this on...

We did this... I am sorry you could not trust me, and that I could not bring you the comfort necessary to do that...
I understand you far better than you think... one day you will realize... one day you will realize this was never about what you were hiding from me... I could see it clearly... it's about what you never saw in me and what you are unable to give at this time... and what you chose to see and believe... what you can't help believe... and what I do not have the strength or fotitude to compensate for...

What you need I can not give, and what I need you can not be

I need a secure man
And you need a woman more like your ex-wife than me.

I love you dear heart... you are a good and loving person... the demons I speak of all this time are not the demons you imagine from my end... but the demons that were there long before I arrived... what I say you imagine as fantoms in the mist is not because you might not have had reason to feel the way you do... but the difference in how a healthy person would approach those doubts... these are the demons I speak of not men in the misty waters of my privates... in the end it's a lot of conjecture about things I've said and done... without every really knowing how or what they meant...

In other words a deep sense of feeling like you never never knew me, and you never will... and a million 23 page emails can not fix what has gone unnoticed for over 2 years... me the me inside... I can read your email and know you do not know me... I am the shadow of the demons that rest in your head... I am that ex-gf that cheated on you in college, and every other girl that must have done you wrong... because deep down inside you can not believe you are worth being loved... and until you find your way past that demon... no one will be what you need... these are the demons/fantoms in the mist...

Your power rests within yourself... and I hope you find it one day...

Much love

-------------------

Completely denied everything - ignored it other than 'i understand why you came to that conclusion' - and then admitted to sleeping w/ someone last week. So... she was lying in her emails and IM's to people? I can't believe there is a person this dishonest that I actually know. I'm questioning my own sanity. If I didn't make copies of the emails, I would think I made it up. She sounds like she believes what she is saying.

OMFG.

Just LET IT GO.

Stop with the contact.

Move on.

Doesn't matter what she says, or thinks, or does, any more. It just matters what you do next. Break ups suck, no matter the reasons, or circumstances, but a least the wondering is over, if you take the time to let it go!!

Sorry for your loss.

Talaniman Rule- Never expect some one to admit to being a lying, cheating fool! Its never going to happen.

I don't think you can eliminate the insecurity because the insecurity is not in the relationship - it's in you. You knew she was a stripper when you met her, so don't try to blame her for what she does for a living.

Try to see it for a moment from her point of view. She met a guy (you) who really interested her, a guy she thought accepted her for who she was and what she did in life. Then suddenly you're treating her as if her job and past is like leprosy.

I feel you should start to look for a therapist to work on your insecurity issues before it has a chance to derail a wonderful realtionship. Lots of luck!

-------------------------------------------------------

:)

I don't think you can eliminate the insecurity because the insecurity is not in the relationship - it's in you. You knew she was a stripper when you met her, so don't try to blame her for what she does for a living.

Try to see it for a moment from her point of view. She met a guy (you) who really interested her, a guy she thought accepted her for who she was and what she did in life. Then suddenly you're treating her as if her job and past is like leprosy.

I feel you should start to look for a therapist to work on your insecurity issues before it has a chance to derail a wonderful realtionship. Lots of luck!

-------------------------------------------------------

:)

Please read all the way through a thread before responding.

The relationship has been over for a while now.

Doesn't matter what she says, or thinks, or does, any more. It just matters what you do next. Break ups suck, no matter the reasons, or circumstances, but a least the wondering is over, if you take the time to let it go!!

Sorry for your loss.

Talaniman Rule- Never expect some one to admit to being a lying, cheating fool! Its never going to happen.


Thanks for the sentiments. And I love your rule.

Just had to share. Immediately I started thinking she continues to lie to protect my feelings. You would think at some point I would quit attributing selfless objectives to her selfish, lying, manipulative behaviors. I just want to believe.

We sanctify when we say goodbye and grieve. I've got to stop. It's a long road back, but I'm on the right path I believe.


Thanks again for everyone's comments.

I do have a therpaist... I'm in good hands. I will accept donations for that fund however. PM me. ;)