Do you have to be baptized in water to be saved? I know that it is a good thing to do, but is it more a symbol of our Christian faith or is it necessary for salvation? I have read the Bible but still not sure. I have asked but always get different answers. I mean even Jesus was baptized with water, but the thief on the cross next to him was saved by faith. Any answers would be a great help. Thanks in advance.

Unable to cut/paste.

Your answer:
Water Baptism - Bible Study and Christian Teaching on Baptism in Water - Biblical Teachings (http://www.christcenteredmall.com/teachings/water-baptism.htm)

Must read...
Excellent reading.


Fr_Chuck, what do you think?

Cindy,

You are going to get all different kinds of answers on this one. I have studyied this topic since I was in my early 20's. Bottom line... every Christian should be baptized... it is NOT a requirement of salvation. If anything other than simple belief in the Lord Jesus' fininshed work is needed... He didn't finish the work... and HE said it best... IT IS FINISHED.

Nope. If you get baptised before receiving the gift of salvation all you got was a bath or your head sprinkled. Baptism is an outward sign of an inward change. It is only to confirm what you have already done by receiving Jesus Christ into your life as Lord and Savior.

Do you have to be baptized in water to be saved? I know that it is a good thing to do, but is it more a symbol of our Christian faith or is it necesary for salvation? I have read the Bible but still not sure. I have asked but always get different answers. I mean even Jesus was baptized with water, but the theif on the cross next to him was saved by faith. Any answers would be a great help. Thanks in advance.

No. Absolutely not. Scripture is very clear on that point.

It is an act of obedience after salvation, but it is the blood that Jesus shed on the cross for our sins, not water that washes away our sins.

No. Absolutely not. Scripture is very clear on that point.

It is an act of obedience after salvation, but it is the blood that Jesus shed on the cross for our sins, not water that washes away our sins.

Tj3,

I love when we are in sync.;).. now if I could get you to see the error of your ways in HEBREWS... but you want to be stubborn.:D

The bible states that in order to be born again we must be baptised and in order to get into heaven we must be born again. So even though the bible doesn't flat out say. You need to be baptised to enter heaven, it is implied. If you need to be baptised to be born again, and you need to be born again to get into heaven, then it's just like saying that you need to be baptised to get into heaven. But that is a personal decision between you and christ.

Well I was going to disagree just for the point of having a good discussion but have to agree.

The bible states that in order to be born again we must be baptised and in order to get into heaven we must be born again. So even though the bible doesn't flat out say. You need to be baptised to enter heaven, it is implied. If you need to be baptised to be born again, and you need to be born again to get into heaven, then it's just like saying that you need to be baptised to get into heaven. But that is a personal decision between you and christ.

The bible actually says born again? I would like to know where.
Must be baptised in order to get in heaven we must be born again, where does it say that?
Where is it implied?

Joe,

Jesus tells nicodemus he had to be born again... but that was the only time the term was used and baptism was not involved in the conversation.

Tj3,

I love when we are in sync.;)..now if i could get you to see the error of your ways in HEBREWS..... but you want to be stubborn.:D

Who is in error may be matter of opinion ;)

But I can guarantee you that when we are both in eternity, we will be in 100% agreement!

Who is in error may be matter of opinion ;)

But I can guarantee you that when we are both in eternity, we will be in 100% agreement!

That we will my friend... but you will have to say these four words I long to hear when we get there... TESS, YOU WERE RIGHT! That's OK, I won't rub it in too bad. ;)

The bible actually says born again? I would like to know where.
Must be baptised in order to get in heaven we must be born again, where does it say that?
Where is it implied?

Here are some Verses:
Even Jesus was baptised: Matthew 3:13
Jesus tells them to be baptised the way he was:Mark 10:39
You must be born again:J ohn 3:3, John 3:7,
AND THE BIGGEST EVIDANCE OF ALL::: JOHN 3:3-10:) (it says born of water, what other water is there?)

Here are some Verses:
Even Jesus was baptised: Matthew 3:13
Jesus tells them to be baptised the way he was:Mark 10:39
You must be born again:J ohn 3:3, John 3:7,
AND THE BIGGEST EVIDANCE OF ALL::: JOHN 3:3-10:) (it says born of water, what other water is there?)

When you are born there is water - ask any doctor or any mother.

Jesus explained it:

John 3:4-6
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
NKJV

If by ''salvation'' you mean entering the Kingdom of Heaven,then baptism is not a ''must'',and the thief's story is a good example.But if you mean,being saved from the authourity of the world and its master then baptism is required as a statement that you no longer belong to the world but you belong to Jesus.
The people of Israel were living in Egypt and were under the authourity of the Pharaoh.Egypt is the World and the Pharaoh is its master the devil.The Israelites were saved by them but even after the death of every firstborn in Egypt,the Pharaoh still came after them,so the Israelites came to a point were there was no other way for them except through the waters of the sea.They came through those waters,and those same waters became the grave of the Egyptians,the grave of the World.
So today , if I want to be saved by ''the Egyptians'',I have to be baptized,but have this on mind , that not all of the Israelites made it to the promised land!

Why do so many talk of adding rules, regulations, or rituals to salvation? When the spirit of God enters a person. They are born of the spirit. A water birth is natural birth as semen is mostly water and a natural birth is quite watery. Nicodemus talked of a water birth, Jesus spoke of being born of God. The Baptism is a symbol of what has taken place spiritually. We are lowered into the water as we are lowered into the grave. We are under the water(as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish) as we would be in the grave, and then we rise up out of the water as we rise up out of the grave to walk in the newness of life having put to death our old self. Being baptized is merely obeying the command of Jesus, just as he also commanded us to love one another as He loved us and to be Holy as God is Holy. Do we always do these things? No. But we should do them if we are able and Jesus says we are able. Yes we stumble and fall but we are picked back up by God. We don't wallow in sin or make it a lifestyle for the spirit in us cannot tolerate it.

[QUOTE=Tj3;1720455]When you are born there is water - ask any doctor or any mother.

Well when Nicodemous said "how can a man go back into his mother womb" (paraphrase)
That's when God said water and faith. If Jesus was talking about a baby being carried in the mothers placenta filled with water he wouldn't have corrected nicodemous in the first place.

Poker,

He DID correct him. Nicodemous didn't get it and neither did anyone standing there listening. BUT we get it now.. this side of the cross. He is talking about being spirtually born again with HIS spirit... the HOLY SPIRIT. It doesn't come through baptism... the bible says we are SEALED with the Holy Spirit right after we believe in HIS finished work.

Jesus asked can you be baptized with the baptism I was baptized with?

Hear His Voice

Matthew 20:23 And He saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but [it shall be given to them] for whom it is prepared of my Father.

So who is a good servant doing the will of God?

Hear HIS Voice


Luke 12:45-50 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

When you are born there is water - ask any doctor or any mother.

Jesus explained it:

John 3:4-6
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
NKJV

Tom,

Elaborate... if you don't mind.

When you are born there is water - ask any doctor or any mother.

Jesus explained it:

John 3:4-6
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
NKJV

Jesus was sent to wash our flesh of sin which was born of water at birth (Chirst set us free from sin), the spiritual birth is baptism born to newness of life. (Holy Spirit) ( 2 bodies )

I Corinthian 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.


49 as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.


52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Tom,

elaborate....if you don't mind.

Sure. Let’s look at it in the context of scripture:

John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NKJV

Jesus speaks of two things:

1) Being born of water.
2) being born of Spirit

Then he speaks of two things again:

1) Being born of the flesh
2) Bring born of the spirit.

The Jews used a literary form called parallelism frequently. In this case you are essentially equating things by parallel comparison, placed in their respective order. In this case, we see being born of water equated to being born of the flesh. We are all born of the flesh, but not all are born of the spirit (born again), and yet He says that both are essential.

The short version of your question was, "is Baptism necessary for salvation." The short answer is a paraphrase of the question. "Baptism is NOT necessary for Salvation, but Salvation IS necessary for Baptism." In Acts 10:44-48 The Holy Spirit came on ALL who heard the message that Peter was speaking at the home of Cornelius. When the people saw that the listeners had received the Holy Spirit (thus were born of the spirit) they were THEN ordered to be Baptized.
No one in the new testament times told anyone that hadn't ALREADY been saved to be Baptized. It would have been a meaningless gesture.

Thank you guys so much. Not only did you answer my question but you gave references so I could read also for myself.

Yes, Baptism is necessary to be go to heaven.
That has been shown here on other threads.
I've been studying that and more for about 70 years.
The bible is clear on that.
Mark 16: 16. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.
And the bible says that we must be born again by water and the holy spirit, that is being baptized, to go enter the kingdom of heaven.
John 3: no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him."
3. Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4. Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"
5. Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. "Do not marvel that I said to you, `You must be born again.'
Thus the Holy Spirit becomes to dwell with us and we are then a new more spiritual person with the Holy Spirit being our helper and guide.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred, good points. Allow me to point out some things also on your points.
1. Mark 16:16 does not say whoever believes and is not baptized will be condemned. If you believe and have the opportunity you will be Baptized.
2. You misquote saying the Bible says we must be born AGAIN of water and the spirit. The "again" is not in there. You quote it correctly in #5. You also add "that is being baptized to go enter into the kingdom of heaven" to you're the Bible says. If it is there quote it.
3. Yes, one must be born again. No mention of Baptism.
4. Continuation. No mention of Baptism
5. The actual quote you meant for number 2. Nicodemus talked about a fleshly birthing again. Jesus tells him you must be born of water(fleshly) AND of spirit (regeneration by God)
6. A continuation of the quote which doesn't mention baptism and seems to support the contention of a fleshly birth and a spiritual birth.
7. Absolutely. One must be born again. And again, no mention of Baptism.

Just some things to consider. We certainly agree one must be born again to enter the kingdom of God

No one in the new testament times told anyone that hadn't ALREADY been saved to be Baptized. It would have been a meaningless gesture.

All you are saying is that one must confess faith in Christ before being baptized. And I agree, that the confessed faith in Christ is the calling we are sent to answer first . In (Acts 8:36-37) the question of baptism was asked. (See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? ) The answer was (If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. )

Thus then baptized into Christ,we have put on Christ as it is written in (Gal 3:26-27 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.)

Fred, good points. Allow me to point out some things also on your points.
1. Mark 16:16 does not say whoever believes and is not baptized will be condemned. If you believe and have the opportunity you will be Baptized.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. KJV

homesell, I feel that apprehension to think that both belief and baptism are necessary, can be the lack of accepting both faith and works are necessary. Faith and works are a dwelling within of spirit to be together.




2. You misquote saying the Bible says we must be born AGAIN of water and the spirit. The "again" is not in there. You quote it correctly in #5. You also add "that is being baptized to go enter into the kingdom of heaven" to your The Bible says. If it is there quote it.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. KJV

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. KJV

The image of righteousness is what Christ has brought to us. If we believe in HIS worthyness and all that is written concerning our bolted out sin, and that He set us free. Then we walk in Christ and Christ in us. In both images, we walk in the image of Christ when we believe and are baptized, and that notes the point of (Ye must be Born Again)

1 Corthinians 15:49 as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Yes sndbay, I know the bible says we must be born again. Without a doubt. What I said was the bible does not say we must be born again of water and the spirit.

Yes sndbay, I know the bible says we must be born again. without a doubt. What I said was the bible does not say we must be born again of water and the spirit.

Do you believe you must be baptized into Christ as written in (Gal 3:27) because I believe baptism was suffered by Christ unto the act of righteousness, and thus allowing us as in the image of God. That image of God is what we were created to be. Every step of the way in Christ was exampled unto us as the way. And this molds us to HIS way for Live verses death.

Baptism is being buried in Christ, dead in Christ and the sins of this world. So we are able to rise as He was raised.

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

the dead= baptized in the Lord

rest in their labours = assurance and trust in what they do in Christ

works follow them = reward of promise

Hebrews10:35-36 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. KJV

homesell, I feel that apprehension to think that both belief and baptism are necessary, can be the lack of accepting both faith and works are necessary. Faith and works are a dwelling within of spirit to be together.

The argument is this. If you take the first half of the verse, it says “He who believes and is baptized is saved”, therefore believing and baptism are the essential requirements for baptism. For the believers in this doctrine, that is a slam-dunk argument.

First, it inappropriate to take a verse out of context, let alone cutting a verse in half and only looking at the first half of the verse. I could come up with a lot of very strange doctrines using that approach. Let me give an example:

Gen 2:16-1716 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
NKJV

If I did the same thing to this passage as is done in this argument in Mark 16:16 shown above, I would stop at the semi-colon and would read:

“Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat“

Of course I have now change the meaning of the passage entirely and negated fully the message that God was giving to Adam and Eve. This is therefore a very dangerous approach and can significantly alter the meanings of many passages throughout scripture.

The second point that I would like to make is that the second part of the 1st half of the verse regarding baptism indiactes that baptism, though important as an act of obedience following salvation, is not essential. Let me illustrate by adding something to this verse:

"He that believeth and is baptized and drives a red car shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Now this verse is still true. It does not say that if you drive a yellow car you are damned. Neither does it require that you drive a red car. The addition of the red car to the passage does not invalidate it, nor does it make the red car mandatory.

The argument is this. If you take the first half of the verse, it says “He who believes and is baptized is saved”, therefore believing and baptism are the essential requirements for baptism. For the believers in this doctrine, that is a slam-dunk argument.

First, it inappropriate to take a verse out of context, let alone cutting a verse in half and only looking at the first half of the verse. I could come up with a lot of very strange doctrines using that approach. Let me give an example:

Gen 2:16-1716 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
NKJV

What I feel you have illustrated is that this tree of good and evil was less deadly in parts, but instead clearly God said don't eat from it. (that tree good and evil) means (that tree enticing good appearance and beguiling evil deception)

Genesis 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.



The second point that I would like to make is that the second part of the 1st half of the verse regarding baptism indiactes that baptism, though important as an act of obedience following salvation, is not essential. Let me illustrate by adding something to this verse:

"He that believeth and is baptized and drives a red car shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Now this verse is still true. It does not say that if you drive a yellow car you are damned. Neither does it require that you drive a red car. The addition of the red car to the passage does not invalidate it, nor does it make the red car mandatory.

Disagree, You have done the same to this verse as you did with the enticing good appearance of the beguiling evil deception found in that tree in which God said not to eat from.
Clearly we have to follow HIS words, and eat only of the Tree of Life.

And in this case clearly confess faith and be baptized because if you do not believe in Christ then neither do you believe in baptism, and will be damned.

Please find your confession of faith in all that is written of Chirst. Faith and suffered righteousness are both belief in the love of Christ.

Gal 3:26-27 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Right TJ3. If one has faith in the shed blood of Christ there WILL be works. The problem comes up that when some people do works, they think the works are what saves them. There are many people that do good works that don't have the slightest faith in Christ. So you can have works without faith and be unsaved. You cannot have faith and not have works.

homesell.
Thanks, Jeff, but I disagree.
I firmly believe that when the bible says we must be born again of water and spirit it mean Baptism by water and the Holy Spirit abides with us from then on.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Disagree, You have done the same to this verse as you did with the enticing good appearance of the beguiling evil deception found in that tree in which God said not to eat from.
Clearly we have to follow HIS words, and eat only of the Tree of Life.

Right - and that was my point. We cannot take part of a verse and base a doctrine on that part. That is why it is wrong to try to take part of Mark 16:16 to try to support the belief that baptism saves.


And in this case clearly confess faith and be baptized because if you do not believe in Christ then neither do you believe in baptism, and will be damned.

Not true. I have met many who believe in being baptized and have been baptized, but are not saved.

homesell.
Thanks, Jeff, but I disagree.
I firmly believe that when the bible says we must be born again of water and spirit it mean Baptism by water and the Holy Spirit abides with us from then on.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred, Jesus explained that being born of water meant born in the flesh.

And where did He do that?

Not true. I have met many who believe in being baptized and have been baptized, but are not saved.

Tom, How do you know what is in their heart? And furthermore before making the quoted posted, I would discern when they were baptized and how they were baptized.. The heart of those can not be judged as saved or unsaved. Having doubt in anyone mind and heart is a stumblingblock

When anyone does confess their faith in Christ Jesus, and then are baptized in full body suffered baptism, there is no doubt in my mind that the baptism in newness of life was fulfilled.

Walking in Christ, and having Christ dwell within is a recognized difference to one's self. Growing in HIS grace, with a desire to do HIS Will, and be all He created you to be.

Fred,
Throughout the New Testament, believers are Baptized only after they have already received the Holy Spirit. Acts 10:46-47 is a perfect example of this. If you have the Holy Spirit inside you, you are saved. If you don't you aren't. It's as simple as that. If you aren't saved(have a relationship with Jesus made possible through the indwelling Spirit), there is no point in being baptized.(a ritual) TJ3 is right about many are baptized but only think they are saved. To paraphrase the Bible verse of, "many are called but few are chosen" Try "many are baptized but few are saved."
Don't even get me started on how many were baptized as babies and never showed the slightest inclination toward God. Or the number of people that get baptized several times I guess because it must not have worked the first time.

Fred,
Throughout the New Testament, believers are Baptized only after they have already recieved the Holy Spirit. Acts 10:46-47 is a perfect example of this. If you have the Holy Spirit inside you, you are saved. If you don't you aren't. It's as simple as that. If you aren't saved(have a relationship with Jesus made possible through the indwelling Spirit), there is no point in being baptized.(a ritual) TJ3 is right about many are baptized but only think they are saved. To paraphrase the Bible verse of, "many are called but few are chosen" Try "many are baptized but few are saved."
Don't even get me started on how many were baptized as babies and never showed the slightest inclination toward God. Or the number of people that get baptized several times I guess because it must not have worked the first time.

Follow Christ! HIS Way! He showed us the Way

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

We have to acknowledge the fulfillment and belief in what is written concerning baptism.

Luke 3:17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

Tom, How do you know what is in their heart?

I am going by their testimony which indicates a gospel that does not align with the Biblical gospel.

And where did He do that?

Fred,

Perhaps you missed my earlier post. Here it is again.

Let’s look at it in the context of scripture:

John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NKJV

Jesus speaks of two things:

1) Being born of water.
2) being born of Spirit

Then he speaks of two things again:

1) Being born of the flesh
2) Bring born of the spirit.

The Jews used a literary form called parallelism frequently. In this case you are essentially equating things by parallel comparison, placed in their respective order. In this case, we see being born of water equated to being born of the flesh. We are all born of the flesh, but not all are born of the spirit (born again), and yet He says that both are essential.

Well my friend at the resurection their we will receive our rewards acoording to the acts we do on earth, those who follows the actions of Jesus from the babtisms and righteosness reacieve the highest order of heaven for their reward i.e. the celestial kingdom which has glory like the sun, I think that the thief beside Jesus on the cross will acquired the third level of the kingdom the telestial kingdom or better yet the second level which is the terrestrial kigdom but certainly not the celestial kingdom which only can be attained through baptism in water and following the paths of righteosness, I'm afraid to say that thos christians who do not get baptised through immersion of water like Jesus will either inherit the second or third level of the Kingdom of God

The bible actually says born again? I would like to know where.
Must be baptised in order to get in heaven we must be born again, where does it say that?
Where is it implied?

In the heart dude you must be born again, or more specifically by the way you be thinking and having the out look on life

well my friend at the resurection their we will recieve our rewards acoording to the acts we do on earth, those who follows the actions of Jesus from the babtisms and righteosness reacieve the highest order of heaven for their reward ie the celestial kingdom which has glory like the sun, i think that the thief beside Jesus on the cross will acquired the third level of the kingdom the telestial kingdom or better yet the second level which is the terrestrial kigdom but certainly not the celestial kingdom which only can be attained through baptism in water and following the paths of righteosness, im afraid to say that thos christians who do not get baptised through immersion of water like Jesus will either inherit the second or third level of the Kingdom of God

niaro - I don't think there are levels to heaven such as you are describing... I wonder if you are referring to the 3rd heaven Paul talks about which I take to simply mean, the kingdom of God. There is a separateness to the earth, the atmosphere, and the realm of God which I believe is what Paul refers to as the 3rd heaven. But niaro, God does not reduce his followers to categories like ultra-Christian, decent-Christian, and marginal-Christian. That's a construct of our own imagination because that is how we see ourselves as better than some but less than some, etc.

What you are putting forth is not a biblical concept by any means but perhaps a misunderstanding of what Paul mentions in Corinthians.

Sincerely.

sndbay,
Your question to Tj3 is a good one.
It falls into the category of thou shalt not judge.
Tom does NOT know what is in a person's heart who had been baptized, only God knows. Yet Tom claims to know baptized people who are not saved.
Only God is the judge.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

sndbay,
Your question to Tj3 is a good one.
It falls into the category of thou shalt not judge.
Tom does NOT know what is in a person's heart who had been baptized, only God knows. Yet Tom claims to know baptized people who are not saved.
Only God is the judge.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

If someone professes a false gospel, or if someone denies the true God, why would you call that judging their heart? It is judging their words, which scripture commands us to do.

- Be not deceived (requires judgment (Matt 24:4, Luke 21:8, 2 Thess.2:3;
Eph.5:6; Colossians 2:8).
- Test spirits (to test requires a pass/fail judgment) (John 4:1)
- Apostle Paul accused the believers at Galatia of being "foolish" and "bewitched" (Gal.2:1), and which caused him to wish that the false teachers would castrate themselves because of their deceptive teaching about circumcision (Gal.5:12).
- Jesus congratulated the church at Ephesus for rooting out false apostles (Rev.2:1-3).
- The Apostle Paul says that he "did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears" about the false teachers who troubled the church at Ephesus both from within and without (Acts 20:28-31).
- John 7:24 Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Tj3
You have yet to answer my question where did Jesus say that water is flesh?
If that is the case then where Scripture says the Jesus and his disciples when out baptizing where the was much water, it was mush flesh.
Fred

Tj3
You have yet to answer my question where did Jesus say that water is flesh?
If that is the case then where Scripture says the Jesus and his disciples when out baptizing where the was much water, it was mush flesh.
Fred

I did Fred, twice. How many times would you like?

Tj3,
One more time, please and I hope that I will see it.
Fred

Tj3,
One more time, please and I hope that I will see it.
Fred

Post #42 is what you are looking for Fred.


What I can't confirm in what Tom is saying is whether he believes baptism is essentail to his faith in Christ Jesus. I have seen where some think it is obedience to do so, and so they are baptized. Which I can acknowledge that baptism is an act of righteousness in obedience to the Will of God.

However I also believe baptism takes on a deeper understanding because once we are baptized scripture tells us that his hand of fire is within. Christ dwells within us. Scripture also saw once baptized we are dead in Christ and able to rise as He did. Scripture after scripture gives evidence of baptism being essentail, and sufficient in follow faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:26-27 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Matthew 3:13-14 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Reference: Luke 3:21-22 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

If anyone believes scripture is the Word of God, and their faith does confess belief in the begotten Son of God as Christ Jesus, then baptism as it is written, is profitable in offering godliness.

One can not go their own way and preach their own solution with a mixture of reasonings. I feel false teaching has shown this method in evidence already.

Where if we would just hear HIS voice and see HIS example, we could find our way in HIS way.

"For neither is circumcision anything nor uncircumcision, but a new creation." Galatians 6:15

Circumcision was the hot topic among new Christians in that day, after all, Jesus was circumcised and it was something we could do to help in the process.
Paul considered the NEW CREATION to be of utmost importance. Nothing matters except this creative work of God! Neither circumcision, nor baptism, nor any other external human action or religious rite is "anything" if the new creation is absent. On the other hand, if God has made us new creatures, the absence of circumcision("uncircumcision") or baptism or speaking in tongues or any other religious rite is not "anything" either! The only thing that matters for any of us is this: "Am I a new creature, or am I still the same person that I have always been?" If I am the same person that I've always been, then I am not a Christian, and no amount of church attendance, liturgy, religious ceremony, "going forward at the invitation" or "accepting Jesus" means anything.

"For neither is circumcision anything nor uncircumcision, but a new creation." Galations 6:15

Circumcision was the hot topic among new Christians in that day, after all, Jesus was circumcised and it was something we could do to help in the process.
Paul considered the NEW CREATION to be of utmost importance. Nothing matters except this creative work of God! Neither circumcision, nor baptism, nor any other external human action or religious rite is "anything" if the new creation is absent. On the other hand, if God has made us new creatures, the absence of circumcision("uncircumcision") or baptism or speaking in tongues or any other religious rite is not "anything" either! The only thing that matters for any of us is this: "Am I a new creature, or am I still the same person that I have always been?" If I am the same person that I've always been, then I am not a Christian, and no amount of church attendance, liturgy, religious ceremony, "going forward at the invitation" or "accepting Jesus" means anything.

Okay and this goes back to one point of fact. The heart is the circumcision which is the love of Christ, faith to follow, faith in HIS way being the only way.. The vine .. Hear HIS VOICE which is the simplicity of Christ Jesus

And Paul feared we might be beguiled as Eve was by enticing words.

Right sndbay,
So no believer would think that maybe they have an old heart and a new heart, God specifically says, "I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh". EZekiel 36:26 Instead of a hard, cold, unfeeling heart, the christian is given a soft, warm, living heart that is sensitive to the things of God.

Right sndbay,
So no believer would think that maybe they have an old heart and a new heart, God specifically says, "I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh". EZekiel 36:26 Instead of a hard, cold, unfeeling heart, the christian is given a soft, warm, living heart that is sensitive to the things of God.

Ezekiel 37:4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.


For there is a promise from God...

Tj3,
One more time, please and I hope that I will see it.
Fred


Third time, Fred.

--------------------

Fred,

Perhaps you missed my earlier post. Here it is again.

Let’s look at it in the context of scripture:

John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NKJV

Jesus speaks of two things:

1) Being born of water.
2) being born of Spirit

Then he speaks of two things again:

1) Being born of the flesh
2) Bring born of the spirit.

The Jews used a literary form called parallelism frequently. In this case you are essentially equating things by parallel comparison, placed in their respective order. In this case, we see being born of water equated to being born of the flesh. We are all born of the flesh, but not all are born of the spirit (born again), and yet He says that both are essential.

I don't know if anyone will agree with me, but here are my thoughts.

Being baptised is encouraged, and should be done.

But I don't ever recall hearing jesus once say 'you will not go to heaven if your not baptized'

The ONLY requirement for salvation is to believe in jesus christ as the lord and savior.

BUT jesus also said that he wants us to be baptized. So I believe we should all do it.

But no I don't believe it's a REQUIREMENT

But if you already believe in jesus christ as your savior, why not take that extra step? :)

I dont know if anyone will agree with me, but here are my thoughts.

being baptised is encouraged, and should be done.

but i dont ever recall hearing jesus once say 'you will not go to heaven if your not baptized'

the ONLY requirement for salvation is to believe in jesus christ as the lord and savior.

BUT jesus also said that he wants us to be baptized. so i believe we should all do it.

but no i dont believe its a REQUIREMENT

but if you already believe in jesus christ as your savior, why not take that extra step? :)

Nice summary of what we find in scripture.

Do you have to be baptized in water to be saved? I know that it is a good thing to do, but is it more a symbol of our Christian faith or is it necesary for salvation? I have read the Bible but still not sure. I have asked but always get different answers. I mean even Jesus was baptized with water, but the theif on the cross next to him was saved by faith. Any answers would be a great help. Thanks in advance.

Baptism is a grace absolutely necessary for salvation, without it there can be no justification. The reason is in the way that John the Baptist prepared (Cf. Is 40.3). Immersion symbolized death, the flood of Noah. The river Jordan would have been a symbolic representation of the flood waters. In antiquity, immersion was considered purification, the liberation from actual sin and original sin that is preceded by confession, an act of perfect contrition (Cf. Mk 1:4). Coming out of the water would be a re-birth, the heavens opened for Christ. For the militant of the Church it is a breach into communion with Christ’s Church (Cf. 1 Peter 2:9).

It’s a universal call to holiness and communion with his Church. St. Jerome said "Whoever says that even infants are vivified in Christ when they depart this life without the participation of His Sacrament (Baptism), both opposes the Apostolic preaching and condemns the whole Church which hastens to baptize infants, because it unhesitatingly believes that otherwise they cannot possibly be vivified in Christ," St. Ambrose (II De Abraham. c. xi) speaking of the necessity of baptism, says:"

Baptism turns us into a new person, “an adopted son of God, who has become a "partaker of the divine nature,"member of Christ and co-heir with him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit.”CCC 1265

It’s not just an outward sign, rather a necessity for salvation. We know that the Apostles were sent out commanded, “teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost” Matt 28:19 "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved." Mk 16:15-16

JoeT

Baptism is a grace absolutely necessary for salvation, without it there can be no justification. The reason is in the way that John the Baptist prepared (Cf. Is 40.3).

John the Baptist was performing a Jewish ritual known as the Mikeveh which is described in Hebrews 9 as symbolic.

Heb 9:9-10:1
9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience-- 10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation. 11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
NKJV

The word translated as "various" washings" referring to the Jewish mikveh is the word "baptismos" in Greek, translated elsewhere as "baptism. And what is it symbolic of? Salvation through Christ.

I note that the prime focus of your arguments come from the teachings of your denomination.

In verses 1 through 8 we see the parable telling of the Jewish sacrificial offering in the sanctuary. The High Priest and only the High Priest can position the Loaves of Proposition (you might want to look it up.) In any event the, (I'm paraphrasing) this is the parable of that day: accordingly gifts and sacrifices offered cannot make the High Priest perfect. Sacrifices of the Old Covenant cannot make the High Priest pure, it doesn't matter how many times he washes. But, we know a pure High Priest, don't we?

We are to understand that “ Christ, being come an high Priest of the good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hand, that is, not of this creation” But, the antitype of this parable is in verse 24, “For Jesus is not entered into the Holies made with hands, the patterns of the true: but into Heaven itself, that he may appear now in the presence of God for us.” Christ doesn't even enter into the Tabernacle and he is pure enough to stand in the presence of God.

I've never seen these verses rendered as you did. Can you explain yourself?

JoeT

In verses 1 through 8 we see the parable telling of the Jewish sacrificial offering in the sanctuary.

First of all, it is speaking of the historic Jewish ritual, not a parable. There is a great deal written about this and you could even go into the OT to read about it.


The High Priest and only the High Priest can position the Loaves of Proposition (you might want to look it up.) In any event the, (I’m paraphrasing) this is the parable of that day: accordingly gifts and sacrifices offered cannot make the High Priest perfect. Sacrifices of the Old Covenant cannot make the High Priest pure, it doesn’t matter how many times he washes. But, we know a pure High Priest, don’t we?

Did you notice that the mikveh (which by the way was NOT just for the high priest) was symbolic of the coming of Christ?

Do you realize that John did not create baptism but rather what he was doing was the mikveh which was symbolic of the coming sacrifice on the cross? Are you aware that baptism today came from what John was doing, with the difference being that now we perform the baptism, not looking forward to the coming sarifice, but looking back to the sacrifice?


I've never seen these verses rendered as you did. Can you explain yourself?

Perhaps not if your exposure has been to the teachings of your denomination. Scripture is quite clear when read in context. You might also want to do some reading on the Jewish mikveh.

sndbay,
Thanks much.
Here is that verse an I see nowhere in it that Jesus says that water is flesh.
To claim that He does say that is a purposeful twist of scripture to mean something that it does not say.
John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NKJV
Peace and kindness,
Fred

sndbay,
Thanks much.
Here is that verse an I see nowhere in it that Jesus says that water is flesh.
To claim that He does say that is a purposeful twist of scripture to mean something that it does not say.
John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NKJV
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

Here it is again:

Fred,

Perhaps you missed my earlier post. Here it is again.

Let’s look at it in the context of scripture:

John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NKJV

Jesus speaks of two things:

1) Being born of water.
2) being born of Spirit

Then he speaks of two things again:

1) Being born of the flesh
2) Bring born of the spirit.

The Jews used a literary form called parallelism frequently. In this case you are essentially equating things by parallel comparison, placed in their respective order. In this case, we see being born of water equated to being born of the flesh. We are all born of the flesh, but not all are born of the spirit (born again), and yet He says that both are essential.

Fred,

Answer me this:

Eph 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
NKJV

Scripture says that there is but one essential baptism amongst Christians. So my question, Fred, is this:

Do you consider water baptism essential and the Holy Spirit optional?

Or is the Holy Spirit essential and water baptism optional?

Tj3,
My answer is "Neither one"!
As Jesus clearly says, it takes both spirit and water.
Fred

Summing up.
One camp says that one must be baptized to BECOME saved.
The other camp says there is no point to being Baptized unless you ALREADY are saved.

If baptism is necessary before salvation, this implies that the finished work of Jesus is not complete and "God needs some helping out" because He is going to withhold his mercy, grace, and love until we "perform."

If Baptism is not necessary for salvation, this implies that people can receive God's love, grace and mercy without "perfoming" as did the thief on the cross, and Zaccheaus, and the household of Cornelius, and David, and Moses, and Abraham, and John the Baptist, and so on.

If baptism is necessary before salvation, this implies that the finished work of Jesus is not complete and "God needs some helping out" because He is going to withold his mercy, grace, and love until we "perform."


Disagree, for we acknowledge Christ did fulfil all that was the Will of HIS Father. Christ saved us, and set us free from the curse of sin. We walk in righteousness because He was righteous. Once you leave the school master of the law, we walk with Christ. Faith and works are completed in our fulfillment to answer HIS calling. The gospel is profitable unto godliness. We are a temple in which Christ can dwells, being holy as He is HOLY.

Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

There is one body and one spirit (joined) in one hope of our calling (salvation)

Eph 4:4-5 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism,One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.




If Baptism is not necessary for salvation, this implies that people can recieve God's love, grace and mercy without "perfoming" as did the thief on the cross, and Zaccheaus, and the household of Cornelius, and David, and Moses, and Abraham, and John the Baptist, and so on.

All were under the law, as filthy rags in need of righteousness.
If we have not accepted Christ, and HIS righteousness as the way, then we walk as they walked.. under the school master of the law until Christ within the heart is found to be worthy, and each choose to follow. Then and only then.. leaving the school master of the law to walk in grace.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

I guess I just have trouble making myself clear. 3 times in this past week alone, (like the response above by sndbay) people have said they disagree with me and then say exactly what I thought I said or if I didn't take time to spell everything out, they simply elaborate on what I did say and I'm in agreement twith them. What's up with that?

I guess I just have trouble making myself clear. 3 times in this past week alone, (like the response above by sndbay) people have said they disagree with me and then say exactly what I thought I said or if I didn't take time to spell everything out, they simply elaborate on what I did say and I'm in agreement twith them. What's up with that?

It is the same thing eveytime.. Baptism is following Christ and HIS way.. Is that necessary? YES "if" you believe in HIM and walk in the Spirit

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, " if " so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now " if "any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

And " if " Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

Scripture is quite clear when read in context. You might also want to do some reading on the Jewish mikveh.

Reading in context is absolutely necessary; and when you read the bible literally, as you do, then washing in one place means washing in another. In John 3:5 “Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” We hold that this washing is Baptism.

"Holy Baptism holds the first place among the sacraments, because it is the door of the spiritual life; for by it we are made members of Christ and incorporated with the Church. And since through the first man death entered into all, unless we be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, we can not enter into the kingdom of Heaven, as Truth Himself has told us… The effect of this sacrament is the remission of all sin, original and actual; likewise of all punishment which is due for sin. As a consequence, no satisfaction for past sins is enjoined upon those who are baptized; and if they die before they commit any sin, they attain immediately to the kingdom of heaven and the vision of God." (Council of Florence)

Bapto, or baptize is used in Acts 1:5, “but you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost,” or as used in Luke 12:50 “And I have a baptism wherewith I am to be baptized. And how am I straitened until it be accomplished” . And of Hebrews 6:2 “Of the doctrine of baptisms and imposition of hands, and of the resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.” The doctrine spoken of is not doctrine its just a nice thing to do when your back itches?

Baptism is a necessity for salvation.

JoeT


JoeT

Reading in context is absolutely necessary; and when you read the bible literally, as you do, then washing in one place means washing in another.

Joe, don't try telling me what I do or don't do. In the past you have proven to be very poor at trying to take on that role. You'd do better to to try to defend your position - and I would suggest that you have your hands full on that alone.


In John 3:5 “Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” We hold that this washing is Baptism.

I understand your denominational position. But then Jesus went on to explain that He was referring to the flesh by referring to water.


Baptism is a necessity for salvation.

Why don't you answer the questionm that Fred does not want to seem to answer:

Eph 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
NKJV

Scripture says that there is but one essential baptism amongst Christians. So my question, Fred, is this:

Do you consider water baptism essential and the Holy Spirit optional?

Or is the Holy Spirit essential and water baptism optional?

Tj3,
My answer is "Neither one"!
As Jesus clearly says, it takes both spirit and water.
Fred

Fred,

You cannot say "neither one". Scripture says that there is only one. And you often say that you will believe what scripture says.

Eph 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
NKJV

Scripture says that there is but one essential baptism amongst Christians. So my question, Fred, is this:

Do you consider water baptism essential and the Holy Spirit optional?

Or is the Holy Spirit essential and water baptism optional?

Now which one is it? Which baptism is it that is the "one baptism" that God tells us in Ephesians is necessary?

It is the same thing eveytime.. Baptism is following Christ and HIS way.. Is that necessary? YES "if" you believe in HIM and walk in the Spirit

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, " if " so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now " if "any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

And " if " Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

If you are saying that it is necessary to do everything that Jesus commanded to be saved, then we are without hope. Scripture says that we ALL failed at that (Rom 3:23). The good news is that Christ's sacrifice on the cross paid the price for all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9), so that our salvation does not depend upon our works, or our faithfulness, but on His sacrifice on the cross and His faithfulness.

Summing up.
One camp says that one must be baptized to BECOME saved.
The other camp says there is no point to being Baptized unless you ALREADY are saved.

If baptism is necessary before salvation, this implies that the finished work of Jesus is not complete and "God needs some helping out" because He is going to withold his mercy, grace, and love until we "perform."

If Baptism is not necessary for salvation, this implies that people can recieve God's love, grace and mercy without "perfoming" as did the thief on the cross, and Zaccheaus, and the household of Cornelius, and David, and Moses, and Abraham, and John the Baptist, and so on.

Good summary. I tried to add a greenie, but I need to spread around more first.

If you are saying that it is necessary to do everything that Jesus commanded to be saved, then we are without hope. Scripture says that we ALL failed at that (Rom 3:23).

Read on for the body fails but the spirit within does not fail. And we NOW live by the law of faith. Believing in HIS way of righteousness, and walking with HIM as He dwells within us.
Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The law of God is the school master, and the law brings us to Christ. You are filthy rags under the law, but in the law of faith we walk in righteousness because we walk in the spirit. That can only be obtain by the one hope of salvation which is written in (Eph 4:23)

Eph 3:23-24 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.



The good news is that Christ's sacrifice on the cross paid the price for all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9), so that our salvation does not depend upon our works, or our faithfulness, but on His sacrifice on the cross and His faithfulness.


Yes, yet in faith and in the newman of the spirit is rightoeusness which is acts of love, and true holiness.. Both joined as one in the one hope of salvation through one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

If you have left the school master of the law unto Christ you are no longer as filthy rags.. Faith has delivered you HIS salvation

Who can deny the ‘neccssity of baptism when scripturally described as “the doctrine of baptisms and imposition of hands, and of the resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment”? Hebrews 6:2


In antiquity the Jew would have seen John’s baptism as a descending into the underworld in its relation to Noah’s flood. The immersion was seen as purification, a laving with water. It is the sacrament that incorporates us into Christ’s mystical body. The grace both actual and sanctifying redeems though the act of contrition liberating one from actual sin and original sin. (Cf. Mk 1:4). Coming out of the mystical body of water re-birthing through the blood purchase of Christ we find ourselves thrust into the light – as a child breaches the womb bursting into the light. (Cf. 1 Peter 2:9).


This sacrament alone is the entrance to the Church of Christ making us adoptive Sons of God. The sacrament is the remission of sins, “Be baptized …in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins;... " Acts 2:38. The sacrament confers faith through the graces of Christ.


JoeT

All this besides the point,

And I can be argued with, reddie'd or whatever. Many will probably not believe me.


But I believe my lord to be a kind and understanding lord, and if one is a christian in christ, and does not know he/she needs baptisim, it will be forgiven.

Our god looks at our hearts and our intent. Not JUST our actions. And he knows the diffrence between a sincear "i was mistaken and did not know' to 'i knew, but I didn't think it was important'


But again, I say. Even if you do not believe baptism is nessisary, if you are a christian, what is holding you from that last step? Will it HURT you to get baptised? Even if you don't think its nessisary

All this besides the point,

and i can be argued with, reddie'd or whatever. many will probably not believe me.


but i believe my lord to be a kind and understanding lord, and if one is a christian in christ, and does not know he/she needs baptisim, it will be forgiven.

our god looks at our hearts and our intent. not JUST our actions. and he knows the diffrence between a sincear "i was mistaken and did not know' to 'i knew, but i didnt think it was important'


but again, i say. even if you do not believe baptism is nessisary, if you are a christian, what is holding you from that last step? will it HURT you to get baptised? even if you dont think its nessisary

I hear what you are saying, and your final words are what tend to be saying there is a questionable heart verses a willing heart. But you are right, Christ will be the judge of each the heart.

Scripture says: my people will be destroyed by lack of knowledge.
Scripture says: establish the law of Faith
Scripture says: My sheep hear My Voice
Scripture says: man should not live by bread alone but by every word of God
Scripture says: Behold I sent my messenger which shall show the way

I believe in what I am reading in scripture

but again, i say. even if you do not believe baptism is nessisary, if you are a christian, what is holding you from that last step? will it HURT you to get baptised? even if you dont think its nessisary

Agreed. Baptism is important as an act of obedience for all Christians.

Fred,

You cannot say "neither one". Scripture says that there is only one. And you often say that you will believe what scripture says.

Eph 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
NKJV

Scripture says that there is but one essential baptism amongst Christians. So my question, Fred, is this:

Do you consider water baptism essential and the Holy Spirit optional?

Or is the Holy Spirit essential and water baptism optional?

Now which one is it? Which baptism is it that is the "one baptism" that God tells us in Ephesians is necessary?

One body and one Spirit: as you are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, one faith, one baptism. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all.

But to every one of us is given grace, according to the measure of the giving of Christ. Wherefore he saith: Ascending on high, he led captivity captive: he gave gifts to men. Now that he ascended, what is it, but because he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended above all the heavens: that he might fill all things. And he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors and doctors For the perfecting of the saints, for the word of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Until we all meet into the unity of faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ: (Eph 4:4:13)

I might be wrong about this, but I think Jim Jones held this very interpretation of Eph 4 i.e. that only one person, presumably Christ, need be baptized. Not “once one is saved he is always saved” but rather “Each is saved unto his own justice, his own law.” Whereas the believer needn't do anything – not believe, not think, not do, not work, nor live. AnyONE can see that scripture doesn't support this far-flung theory.

What Paul does make clear are the bonds that tie us together into one faith – get that “one faith”, not Tom's rendition of faith, not Julie's or Fred's. – ONE faith in Christ. "And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me. 21 That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee" John. These verses speak to an uncommon love that produces glorious fruits. You have ONE spirit which drinks from ONE fountain. God has called you to immortal glory, into a brotherhood of ONE Hope just as there is ONE Lord. There is a calling to ONE baptism, ONE remission of the original sin. “Who is over all, that is, the Lord and above all; and through all, that is, providing for, ordering all; and in you all, that is, who dwells in you all. Now this they own to be an attribute of the Son; so that were it an argument of inferiority, it never would have been said of the Father.” St. Chrysostom, Homily 11

JoeT

What Paul does make clear are the bonds that tie us together into one faith – get that “one faith”, not Tom's rendition of faith, not Julie's or Fred's.

Nor yours, nor the pope's nor your denomination's. We must take what scripture says at face value.

Agreed. I have said this many times myself.


– ONE faith in Christ. "And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me. 21 That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee[/I]" John. These verses speak to an uncommon love that produces glorious fruits. You have ONE spirit which drinks from ONE fountain. God has called you to immortal glory, into a brotherhood of ONE Hope just as there is ONE Lord. There is a calling to ONE baptism, ONE remission of the original sin. “Who is over all, that is, the Lord and above all; and through all, that is, providing for, ordering all; and in you all, that is, who dwells in you all. Now this they own to be an attribute of the Son; so that were it an argument of inferiority, it never would have been said of the Father.” St. Chrysostom, Homily 11

And not John Chrysostom either.

Just the plain clear word of God.

I notice that you did not answer the question about which baptism is the essential one.

Or maybe your avoidance does answer it.

Nor yours, nor the pope's nor your denomination's. We must take what scripture says at face value.

Agreed. I have said this many times myself.



And not John Chrysostom either.

Just the plain clear word of God.

I notice that you did not answer the question about which baptism is the essential one.

Or maybe your avoidance does answer it.




How many different baptisms do you have? Are you baptized each week? ONE baptism. Baptism is essential only in the sense that it is 'necessary' for salvation.

JoeT

How many different baptisms do you have? Are you baptized each week? ONE baptism. Baptism is essential only in the sense that it is 'necessary' for salvation.

JoeT

So which one is that - the baptism of the Holy Spirit or water baptism?

so which one is that - the baptism of the holy spirit or water baptism?

?

How many baptisms do you have Tom? I don't understand your quesiton.

? ? ? ?

How many baptisms do you have Tom? I don't understand your quesiton.

You don't know what the baptism or the Holy Spirit is?

Or You don't know what water baptism is?

Please let me know which you need explained.

You don't know what the baptism or the Holy Spirit is?

Or You don't know what water baptism is?

Please let me know which you need explained.

You tell me.

You tell me.

You don't know what either means?

Jrff,
It looks like we will continue to disagree on this.
I firmly believe that baptism is necessary for salvation and that it washes away original sin.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

jrff,
It looks like we will continue to disagree on this.
I firmly believe that baptism is necessary for salvation and that it washes away original sin.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

As always you can believe as you wish, but scripture nowhere says water washes away sins. It only says that Jesu blood washes away sins:

Rev 1:5-7
To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
NKJV

Thanks Tom,'
I will believe as I want to.
Of course you can do the same.
Fred

Fred,

As always you can believe as you wish, but scripture nowhere says water washes away sins. It only says that Jesu blood washes away sins:

Rev 1:5-7
To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
NKJV


Revelation 1:5-6
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

1 C 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

it appears that baptism is offered again and again throughout scripture, yet it remains as a needle in a hay stack for you to see... Try looking at all Christ is to us. Do you only count the blood and not the body?

You keep insisting on options.. Water or HOLY SPIRIT.... Christ example HIS own Baptism as water and the HOLY SPIRIT.

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Do you question HIS example and think that John baptized of water, and Christ baptizes with the HOLY Spirit and not water also?

Fred,
Matthew 3:13 John the Baptist says that he himself needed to be baptized. Why? The spirit of God was in John ever since he was in the womb. Jesus replies that he (Jesus)is being baptized not because it is required, but because it is proper.
John 1:33... the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'the man on whom you see the spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with (NOT WATER)the HOLY SPIRIT.
Fred my friend, the baptism of the spirit (invisible)is what is required for salvation. The baptism by water(visible) is "proper" to show that one has already been Baptized by the Spirit.

Fred,
Matthew 3:13 John the Baptist says that he himself needed to be baptized. Why, the spirit of God was in John since he was in the womb? Jesus replies that he (Jesus)is being baptized not because it is required, but because it is proper.
John 1:33 ...the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'the man on whom you see the spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with (NOT WATER)the HOLY SPIRIT.
Fred my friend, the baptism of the spirit (invisible)is what is required for salvation. The baptism by water(visible) is "proper" to show that one has already been Baptized by the Spirit.

homesell

Scripture tells us that baptism was fulfilled by both water and spirit. John's water baptism was not in any way taken less then meaningful because it was both Christ and John that fulfilled the act of all righteousness.

(Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. )

And Christ came by water and blood..

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

5:7-8 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

It appears that baptism is offered again and again throughout scripture, yet it remains as a needle in a hay stack for you to see... Try looking at all Christ is to us. Do you only count the blood and not the body?

Are you saying that I should add to what scripture says regarding what is essential for salvation? Are you saying that Christ's blood on the cross (which, BTW is part of His body) being shed was not sufficient and not completely effective for the atonement of our sins?



You keep insisting on options.. Water or HOLY SPIRIT... Christ example HIS own Baptism as water and the HOLY SPIRIT.

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Good example - did Jesus do these for His salvation, or as a symbolic act of the mikveh (purification ritual)?

If it was for His salvation then none of us have any hope. If He did it as an act of obedience, so that he would remain sinless, then it is not essential for our salvation. None of us are sinless to begin with.

I look forward to your answer.

Don't forget what John was doing - it was a ceremony (mikveh) that scripture says in Hebrews 9 is symbolic!


Do you question HIS example and think that John baptized of water, and Christ baptizes with the HOLY Spirit and not water also?

Your question is interesting. Let me answer each point:

1) Do you question HIS example ?

No, I do not question His example. I think that it is important or every person once they have been baptized in the Holy Spirit at salvation (just as those saved in Acts 10:47 did) to partake in water baptism as a symbolic act of what has happened to then and identify with Christ's death and resurrection on the cross as we are told baptism is in Romans 6.

2) Do you think that John baptized of water, and Christ baptizes with the HOLY Spirit and not water also?

First, why don't you show us any examples you can find where Jesus baptized in water?

Second, that question was answered by John:

Matt 3:10-12
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
NKJV

Mark 1:8
8 I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."
NKJV

Luke 3:16-17
16 John answered, saying to all, "I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
NKJV

John 1:32-34
32 And John bore witness, saying, "I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him. 33 I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, 'Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.'
NKJV

So which do you think is essential? The mikveh of John described in scripture as symbolic? Or the baptism of the Holy Spirit which Jesus' baptizes with?

Are you saying that I should add to what scripture says regarding what is essential for salvation?


What is essential to salvation? My answer would be One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism because it is the truth of what God's word tells us.
The Law of Faith..



Are you saying that Christ's blood on the cross (which, BTW is part of His body) being shed was not sufficent and not completely effective for the atonement of our sins?

No I have not said that.. What I have said, is that what is written, (Revelation 1:5-6)And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.



Good example - did Jesus do these for His salvation, or as a symbolic act of the mikveh (purification ritual)?

Scripture says Christ with John both, as us fulfilled righteousness

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him



If it was for His salvation then none of us have any hope. If He did it as an act of obedience, so that he would remain sinless, then it is not essential for our salvation. None of us are sinless to begin with.

I look forward to your answer.

Scripture say Christ, when He was baptized, withness by John to have had the HOLY SPIRT come upon HIM

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Scripture also say Christ was both born of water and blood.

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.





Don't forget what John was doing - it was a ceremony (mikveh) that scripture says in Hebrews 9 is symbolic!

Both fulfilled rightoeusness.
(Matthew 3:15)



So which do you think is essential? the mikveh of John described in scripture as symbolic? Or the baptism of the Holy Spirit which Jesus' baptizes with?

It is obvious... Both as it is written.

The same as Christ Himself was born of water and blood...

Christ became that blood for us if we walk in HIS image of rightoeunsness, and baptized in HIM (reborn to newness of Life)


One must be baptized unto death, and buried in Christ for that newness of Life. Able to raise as He was raised. Not to forget the fire of HIS hand.

Baptism of Faith ..Belief in Christ
I trust the change of baptism was as Paul spoke Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. (Acts 19:4)

Actually, if you are a Catholic like me, you really need to be baptized in order to be called "Christian." That's just one of the Seven Holy Sacraments.



What happens when we are baptized?

Contemporary Catholics spend a great deal of time preparing for their own or their child's Baptism. There are new clothes to buy, and classes to take, and godparents to select, all leading up to that moment at Mass when the waters of Baptism touch the new initiate. But Baptism-and all sacraments, for that matter-are much more than the moment of celebration.

The ritual of Baptism does not bring God's love into being as if that love did not exist before the ceremony. Baptism is the Church's way of celebrating and enacting the embrace of God who first loved us from the moment of our conception. Baptism celebrates a family's and a community's experience of that love in the baptized.

There are other life experiences-birth, death, washing, growing and so forth-that are celebrated in Baptism. The water represents life, death, cleansing and growth, and it recalls the flood waters of Noah's day and the saving waters of the Red Sea parted by Moses. The candle symbolizes our status as an "easter people" and signifies the way that the Church "passes the torch" of Christian commitment to those being baptized. The white garment represents the Church's belief that Baptism sets us free from Original Sin.

Baptism happens not only to the individual, but also to Christ's body, the Church. That's why the rite insists that we celebrate Baptism in the Christian assembly, with the community present and actively participating. It is the community, after all, who is welcoming the new members, journeying with them, providing models for them, supporting and nourishing them. Baptism begins with God's love and care revealed to us through Christ. It continues with us, the Church, living and enacting God's love and care through Christ to the world. That's a serious commitment.
American Catholic | Update Your Faith (http://www.americancatholic.org/UpdateYourFaith/answers.asp?QC0389a)

You may also refer to (for more info about Holy Sacraments): The Seven Catholic Sacraments - Baptism, Confirmation, Communion, Confession, Holy Orders, Marriage, Last Rites (http://www.americancatholic.org/fEATURES/sACRAMENTS/default.asp)

Hope this helps...

zhazha
:)

Fred,
Matthew 3:13 John the Baptist says that he himself needed to be baptized. Why? The spirit of God was in John ever since he was in the womb. Jesus replies that he (Jesus)is being baptized not because it is required, but because it is proper.



It doesn't say 'proper' or even intimate 'proper'. But what we see in Mark 10:38 and Luke 12:50 is that Jesus refers to baptism as His death. “Can you drink of the chalice that I drink of or be baptized with the baptism wherewith I am baptized?” (Mark 10:38) Matthew's message goes far beyond ritual or rite.

“But John stayed him, saying: I ought to be baptized by thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering, said to him: Suffer it to be so now. For so it becometh us to fulfil all justice.”


Baptism is in itself a confession, shedding an old failed life to take on a new one. The key to understanding your question 'why does Christ need to be baptized' is found in Christ's response, “to fulfil all justice”. In the Jewish culture Justice or righteousness is acceptance of the whole of God's will, the bearing of the “yoke of God's kingdom”. In descending into the waters of the Jordan Christ descends into the underworld taking on the sins of mankind, pleads for forgiveness to take on a new beginning. It is fitting that it is here that John starts his Gospel, in the beginning of the New Covenant. In so confessing God expresses a unity, a 'oneness' with those of mankind who have incurred guilt but yearn for righteousness. Descending into the water Christ is immersed himself in the sinfulness of man, hoisting to his shoulder the yoke of sin in all righteousness. “I have a baptism wherewith I am to be baptized. And how am I straitened until it be accomplished?” (Luke 12:50)


Only understanding Christ's baptism in this manner can we come to understand the whole of the Christ's crucifixion; all righteousness comes to light on the Cross. Christ's baptism is taking on death for the sins of humanity, “This is my beloved Son”, the voice of God announces.



John 1:33 ...the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'the man on whom you see the spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with (NOT WATER)the HOLY SPIRIT.

To the Apostles this couldn't or wouldn't be true in their baptism, because the efficacy of the sacrament is derived from Christ's Passion on the Cross. But, even still baptism is not simply receiving the Holy Spirit. It however confers the grace of the Holy Spirit so as to engage in the performance of good works without which faith is dead (James 2:26).

Another effect of baptism is the infusion of sanctifying grace and supernatural gifts and virtues. It is this sanctifying grace which renders men the adopted sons of God and confers the right to heavenly glory.


Fred my friend, the baptism of the spirit (invisible)is what is required for salvation. The baptism by water(visible) is "proper" to show that one has already been Baptized by the Spirit.

Baptism is the shedding of sin and taking on a new life in Christ.

What is essential to salvation? My answer would be One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism because it is the truth of what God's word tells us.

We agree. But that comes back to my question. Which baptism - of the Holy Spirit or of water?

Are you saying that in Acts 10:47 that those men who had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit were unsaved until they had been water baptized?


No I have not said that.. What I have said, is that what is written, (Revelation 1:5-6)And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

No mention of water washing our sins. Only the blood. As you will find throughout scripture. That was my point.


Scripture says Christ with John both, as us fulfilled righteousness

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him

Right. So was Jesus doing so to be obedient to the father?
Or did He do it to wash His sins?


Scripture say Christ, when He was baptized, withness by John to have had the HOLY SPIRT come upon HIM

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Right - so?


Scripture also say Christ was both born of water and blood.

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

Exactly.

1 John 5:6
6 This is He who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.
NKJV

There are some who deny that Jesus came in the flesh, but this confirms that Jesus was not just born (water) but also was a man with flesh and blood. And this was necessary because without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins (Heb 9:22). So this makes the point that Jesus was not just born of a woman (water), but denies the gnostics contention that he came only as spirit.


It is obvious... Both as it is written.

The same as Christ Himself was born of water and blood...

Right - born of water and blood.


Christ became that blood for us if we walk in HIS image of rightoeunsness, and baptized in HIM (reborn to newness of Life)


Christ became blood for us? Where do you find that in scripture? Are you thinking of this verse?

2 Cor 5:21
21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
NKJV

If so, it is much different and I see no connection here in context to baptism.


One must be baptized unto death, and buried in Christ for that newness of Life. Able to raise as He was raised. Not to forget the fire of HIS hand.

This is your contention, but not what scripture says. You may be thing of Romans 6. Let's look at it:

Rom 6:4-10
4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.
NKJV

Note the word "likeness". That refers to a comparison or symbolism. the word means exactly the same in Greek. So this is not saying that we literally die and become resurrected but rather that we identify with the death and resurrection of Christ and by so doing have symbolized what has happened to us when we were saved.

Keep in mind that contrary to common understanding, the baptism can mean a physical washing or it can simply refer to an identification with - look it up in the dictionary.


Baptism of Faith ..Belief in Christ
I trust the change of baptism was as Paul spoke Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. (Acts 19:4)

This is a quote often taken out of context. Note that this refers to people who repented and believed during John the baptists ministry, which was before the ministry of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We are therefore seeing a transition between the OT ministry and the NT ministry. There is no one today who was brought to belief under John's ministry, so there are no longer believers in Christ who do not have the Holy Spirit.

I notice that you have not commented on Acts 10:47 where we have an specific example of people who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit before water baptism.

Acts 10:44-48
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
NKJV

[B]Actually, if you are a Catholic like me, you really need to be baptized in order to be called "Christian." That's just one of the Seven Holy Sacraments.

We are discussing the scriptural doctrine of baptism, not the denomination membership requirements, which may vary for a number of different denominations.

We are discussing the scriptural doctrine of baptism, not the denomination membership requirements, which may vary for a number of different denominations.

Nobody made you monditor! Zhazha will discuss what he wants, besides you’re being rude to a newcomer.

JoeT

Nobody made you monditor! Zhazha will discuss what he wants, besides you're being rude to a newcomer.

JoeT

Joe,

Yes, he can discuss what he wishes, but politely telling someone that we are discussing the scriptural basis for baptism and not denominational membership entrance requirements is not being rude. Your comments, however, are not just rude but disruptive.

If you are done with your disruptive comments, can we get back to the topic?

Summing up.
One camp says that one must be baptized to BECOME saved.
The other camp says there is no point to being Baptized unless you ALREADY are saved.

If baptism is necessary before salvation, this implies that the finished work of Jesus is not complete and "God needs some helping out" because He is going to withold his mercy, grace, and love until we "perform."

If Baptism is not necessary for salvation, this implies that people can recieve God's love, grace and mercy without "perfoming" as did the thief on the cross, and Zaccheaus, and the household of Cornelius, and David, and Moses, and Abraham, and John the Baptist, and so on.

I appreciate your effort to summarize the difference between the two camps. Clarity is at a premium in discussions such as these.

It is with this in mind that I would like to offer some further clarification of what is, I think, an even more fundamental disagreement--one which goes a long way toward explaining the difference which you very helpfully articulate in your post.

One camp thinks of salvation as an event. According to this view, one was saved at a moment in time to which one may even be able to point. So, for instance, I might claim to have been saved at 3:14pm on November 11, 1974. From that point on, I have been saved--my salvation was completed on that date.

Another camp thinks of salvation as a process. According to this view, one's salvation is not a single event but a process of sanctification which begins at a certain point in time and continues until God's judgment has been rendered and one enters into eternity.

Proponents of the first view will often point to those places in the NT where salvation is spoken of in the past tense (I was saved, I have been saved). Proponents of the second view will typically point out that salvation is spoken of in the past, present, and future tenses (I have been saved, I am being saved, I will be saved). If salvation is a process begun by the Incarnation and continued in each of us every day, then, of course, it makes sense that salvation would be spoken of in past, present, and future tenses: Christ has saved me, his grace is active in me even now, and I will be perfected by God when I am brought into his presence in Heaven at which point the process of my salvation will be completed.

If one thinks of the work of salvation as having been completed on Golgotha, or at the tomb, then it won’t make a whole lot of sense to think of salvation as a process. It then also becomes problematic that Scripture speaks of salvation in the present and future tenses as well as in the past tense. And if all the work of salvation was done by Christ, so that nothing is required of us (nothing must be added to what Christ accomplished with his death and resurrection), then it is difficult to see how one is to avoid the doctrine of universal salvation. I see that you’ve written on another thread that to suppose that works are required along with faith for salvation is to take the view that we must add something to Christ’s work and sacrifice, that it threatens to undermine the sufficiency of that sacrifice. But, then, to suppose that faith is required for salvation would also be susceptible to the same charge: If I must have faith in order to be saved, then Christ’s salvific work on the cross and in the tomb wasn’t entirely sufficient since I must add something to that work, namely my own faith.

Here’s the point: Many Christians think of salvation as a process begun by Christ during his earthly Incarnation and continued throughout history in the hearts and lives of his people. When Scripture says that we have already been saved, this means that the process of salvation has begun, we are already in the process of being sanctified, that a fundamental transformation of the “inner man” is already underway so that I am not now what I was before. When Scripture says that we are being saved, this means that the process of salvation and sanctification which has begun continues even now to transform me. When Scripture says that we will be saved, it means that this process will continue and be completed when I am perfected in the next life. We are active participants in this process: God works in us through the unmerited gift of his grace, but we respond to this gift by the active reception of it through faith and works. This is what it means to have a living faith and this is why the Epistle of James says that a faith without works is not a living faith.

Baptism is at once a response to God’s call to conversion as well as a sanctifying act which is salvific because it is sanctifying. Baptism in water is baptism in the Spirit; the two are one in the act itself. Baptism is a sacrament, and a sacrament is an act in which the sign (in this case, water) and the thing signified (the action of the Holy Spirit) are one. It is correct to call this symbolic, so long as one understands the word "symbolic", in Greek "sumbolon", the way it was understood by the early Christians: "sumbolon" derives from the words "sun" and "ballein", literally to fall together. The sign (water) and the signified (the action of the Holy Spirit) are one in the act of baptism. There is not one baptism by the Spirit and then another baptism by means of water. There is just the one act which is at once baptism in water and in the Spirit.

Joe,

Yes, he can discuss what he wishes, but politely telling someone that we are discussing the scriptural basis for baptism and not denominational membership entrance requirements is not being rude. Your comments, however, are not just rude but disruptive.

If you are done with your disruptive comments, can we get back to the topic?

Being Scriptural and being Christian are not the same thing. As has been explained to you here https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religious-discussions/scripture-standard-338216.html, sola scriptura is itself an unscriptural doctrine. It is therefore perfectly appropriate for any poster to this forum to discuss matters which are not overtly contained in the pages of Scripture since God's revelation extends beyond the written texts of the Bible.

Anyone who wishes to disregard such posts is, of course, well within his or her rights to do so. But it is inappropriate for you to attempt to exclude from the conversation any considerations that do not conform to your dearly held, if wholly unscriptural, doctrine of sola scriptura.

Just as a Lutheran should feel more than free to offer for discussion or consideration those views of Luther's which she finds to be relevant to the topic, so too a Catholic should feel perfectly welcome contributing the teachings of her Church. This is a Christianity forum, not a sola scriptura forum.

Baptism is at once a response to God’s call to conversion as well as a sanctifying act which is salvific because it is sanctifying.

We are in agreement with the first half of that sentence, As for the second half, where in scripture do you find that baptism is sanctifying?

BTW, I agree in part regarding your comment about salvation being an event or process, but I think that you over-simplified it, but to get into it in detailed would derail this discussion However, let me just say that it is an event in that when we receive Christ as Saviour, we are saved - scripture is quite clear about that. The santification comes afterward which is why sanctification cannot be salvific.



Baptism in water is baptism in the Spirit; the two are one in the act itself.

This is not scriptural. For example, we have Acts 10:47 where they are clearly two different things.

Being Scriptural and being Christian are not the same thing. As has been explained to you here https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religious-discussions/scripture-standard-338216.html, sola scriptura is itself an unscriptural doctrine.

As has been shown to you, sola scriptura is scriptural, though it may be contrary to the teachings of your denomination. Being scriptural and Christian, and being in concert with denominational teachings (whether it be your denomination or some other) are not the same thing.



It is therefore perfectly appropriate for any poster to this forum to discuss matters which are not overtly contained in the pages of Scripture

Yes, and no one said otherwise. Perhaps rather than trying to further disrupt this thread, if you had read what was said, you might realize that.

By the way, no one made you monitor either.

Now, are you planning further disruptions, or can we try once again to get back on topic? Hijacking threads is NOT appropriate.

We are in agreement with the first half of that sentence, As for the second half, where in scripture do you find that baptism is sanctifying?

BTW, I agree in part regarding your comment about salvation being an event or process, but I think that you over-simplified it, but to get into it in detailed would derail this discussion However, let me just say that it is an event in that when we receive Christ as Saviour, we are saved - scripture is quite clear about that. The santification comes afterward which is why sanctification cannot be salvific.

There is no reason to suppose that sanctification cannot be salvific. Can you be saved without being sanctified? Can you be sanctified without being saved? The answer is, of course, no both times. The process of sanctification begins when the process of salvation begins. There isn't a lag-time between the onset of the two processes: They are one and the same process. Here you are too much in the grip of the picture of salvation which sees it as a narrowly circumscribed event.


This is not scriptural. For example, we have Acts 10:47 where they are clearly two different things.

No, it doesn't. It doesn't say that Cornelius was baptized by the Holy Spirit and was then sent to be baptized in water. Not all actions of the Holy Spirit are baptismal. This in no way conflicts with the claim that baptism in water is baptism in the Spirit.

There is no reason to suppose that sanctification cannot be salvific. Can you be saved without being sanctified?

You are basing your argument on assumed silence. And yet we find many references to people who have been saved while subsequently being sanctified, in scripture.


No, it doesn't. It doesn't say that Cornelius was baptized by the Holy Spirit and was then sent to be baptized in water. Not all actions of the Holy Spirit are baptismal. This in no way conflicts with the claim that baptism in water is baptism in the Spirit.

Did you notice that Peter said that he had received the Holy Spirit just as they had - so are you saying that Peter did not yet have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

What is essential to salvation? My answer would be One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism because it is the truth of what God's word tells us.
The Law of Faith..

We agree. But that comes back to my question. Which baptism - of the Holy Spirit or of water?

Are you saying that in Acts 10:47 that those men who had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit were unsaved until they had been water baptized?

Let's go back to what SAVES us today? = Law of Faith.. = One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism

When we turn to Christ in Faith the vail is taken away. Did the Gentiles have the vail with a priesthood, as we do NOW in Christ? No they were called by God and He purifying their hearts by faith.
No one before the vail was taken away had the dwelling of the Christ within. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. Now we have the image of righteousness, the same glory in HIS glory. Now we can be One with Christ.

Col 1:19-20 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.


No I have not said that.. What I have said, is that what is written, (Revelation 1:5-6)And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.



No mention of water washing our sins. Only the blood. As you will find throughout scripture. that was my point.

You must look further as it reads first begotten of the dead. What took place when Christ became the first begotten of the dead. We today are buried in HIS death when baptized, able to raise as He was raised.



Scripture says Christ with John both, as us fulfilled righteousness

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him



Right. So was Jesus doing so to be obedient to the father?
Or did He do it to wash His sins?

As scripture said the Spirit of God descending like a dove (Matthew 3:16)

Would Christ come to fulfill HIS Father's will? YES

1 Corthinians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.



Scripture say Christ, when He was baptized, withness by John to have had the HOLY SPIRT come upon HIM

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:


Right - so?



that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.




Scripture also say Christ was both born of water and blood.

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.


Exactly.

1 John 5:6
6 This is He who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.
NKJV

There are some who deny that Jesus came in the flesh, but this confirms that Jesus was not just born (water) but also was a man with flesh and blood. And this was necessary because without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins (Heb 9:22). So this makes the point that Jesus was not just born of a woman (water), but denies the gnostics contention that he came only as spirit.

Scripture is not saying water as in the womb of HIS mother. But it does mean as blood as flesh, which would be shed for us. The water is of the spirit as in baptism.





The same as Christ Himself was born of water and blood...

Christ became that blood for us if we walk in HIS image of rightoeunsness, and baptized in HIM (reborn to newness of Life)



Christ became blood for us? Where do you find that in scripture? Are you thinking of this verse?

2 Cor 5:21
21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
NKJV
.

Yes, Christ's blood was shed for us, the flesh blood for our flesh in sin. So that we too could follow HIM unto righteousness.




One must be baptized unto death, and buried in Christ for that newness of Life. Able to raise as He was raised. Not to forget the fire of HIS hand.


1 Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

1 Cr 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?

1 Cr 15:36 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Let's go back to what SAVES us today? = Law of Faith.. = One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism

Please answer my question - does this refer to the baptism of the Holy Spirit or water baptism?

Second, why do you say "what saves us today"? Are you suggesting that there was another path to salvation other than the blood of Jesus shed on the cross?


You must look further as it reads first begotten of the dead. What took place when Christ became the first begotten of the dead. We today are buried in HIS death when baptized, able to raise as He was raised.

Actually, scripture says that we are buried in the likeness...

Rom 6:5
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
NKJV

That means symbolically we have died with Him and been raised with Him. Symbolism does not save - it is Christ's blood, according to scripture, which takes away our sins.


As scripture said the Spirit of God descending like a dove [/B] (Matthew 3:16)

Would Christ come to fulfill HIS Father's will? YES

1 Corthinians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Okay - so?


Scripture is not saying water as in the womb of HIS mother. But it does mean as blood as flesh, which would be shed for us. The water is of the spirit as in baptism.

that is your claim, but there is absolutely nothing in that context about baptism, and absolutely everything about the first birth in the flesh and the second in the spirit.

You can claim that it is meaning something completely different than what it says if you wish, but that is taking it completely out of context, and forcing it to bend to your theology.


Yes, Christ's blood was shed for us, the flesh blood for our flesh in sin. So that we too could follow HIM unto righteousness.

Agreed.



1 Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Let's read it in context:

Col 2:11-15
11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
NKJV

It goes back to the cross, not water baptism.



1 Cr 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?

Interesting one. I never saw anyone try to use this to support belief in baptismal regeneration before, other than Mormons. Note that this is not an endorsement of baptism for the dead - it is simply acknowledging that some people do engage in the practice. Of course if you are trying to argue that this is the basis for a doctrine of baptismal regeneration, then perhaps we ought to have a second thread on whather you belief that those who have already died can be saved after death through substitutionary baptism of the living for the dead. I truly hope that you do not believe in that.

The sanctification comes afterward which is why sanctification cannot be salvific.

Sanctifying Grace is a supernatural gift of God that comes with baptism. As mentioned it is not an actual gift in the since that it is one event. This grace remains throughout life – this is why Catholics baptize at birth. The goal of sanctifying grace is heavenly bliss, knowledge of God. It is conferred in the form of Forgiveness, Justification, and Redemption


St. Thomas suggests that forgiveness is a virtue, "that a gloss on Psalm 50:19, "A sacrifice to God is an afflicted spirit," says: "A hearty contrition is the sacrifice by which sins are loosed." We gain knowledge of truth and salvation through God’s forgiveness. (Cf. 1 Tim. 2:4 and 2 Pet. 3:9). Doctrinal norms require the pronouncement of absolution by the priest from which the penitent receives a pardon of sins with an infusion of grace wherein gratuitous virtues moving one towards works in charity. (Cf. Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas, 3, 84 and 89). In my opinion, this is unlike the Protestant ‘forgiveness’ received through prayer in that a Catholic receives a literal remittance of the sin and its negative spiritual effects; of course temporal effects of sin remain.


Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life: CCC 1992. The infused grace received by the penitent is justification. Justification takes several forms, all of which are received by the penitent. The degree to which the grace is effectual depends on the cooperation of the penitent. Justification is the work of God; however, an actual grace of justification is one that furthers holiness through beneficial works in charity.


It seems that there must be a cooperation, or synergism, of the will between these graces and the works; allegorically, taking possession of merited Holy gifts leading to redemption. Redemption is a grace of restitution for sin; ransoming the penitent from the demands of Divine justice for satisfactions due to sin which of course are paid for through the merits of Christ’s sufferings. It’s here that I see the habit of justification becoming most efficacious, leading to sanctification. To receive the gift of sanctification is to receive the knowledge of “immortality and inhabiteth light inaccessible: whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and empire everlasting. Amen. … To do good, to be rich in good work, to give easily, to communicate to others, To lay up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on the true life. (1 Timothy 6:16 seq.)


There is a synergism between God and man when these graces are conferred; the free human will and the will of God (the Holy Spirit) work together to bring about spiritual regeneration or salvation. [cf. Trent, Sixth Session, Cannon IV]. Conversely, the Lutheran view would reject any type of cooperation with the concept of “once saved always saved”, (or is only saved one time), the certitude of justification. The Lutheran views man as depraved and as such saving graces must be forced on man. Thus, Luther rejects that there is free will. Similarly Calvin’s view of a fiduciary faith denies that man can be holy, having only a faith that merely covers sin. Catholics however believe in a justification through penance and good works actually removes sin.

JoeT

Sanctifying Grace is a supernatural gift of God that comes with baptism. As mentioned it is not an actual gift in the since that it is one event. This grace remains throughout life – this is why Catholics baptize at birth. The goal of sanctifying grace is heavenly bliss, knowledge of God. It is conferred in the form of Forgiveness, Justification, and Redemption

I understand that to be your denominational teaching, but that is not what we find in scripture. If you wish to argue what your denomination teaches, you are on a different topic.

I notice that your validation for your position is entirely denominational, so there is no need for any further response.

Please answer my question - does this refer to the baptism of the Holy Spirit or water baptism?


Clearly both, up straightway out of the water: and the heavens opens, and the Spirit of God descends like a dove, and lighting upon.

If any man will come after ME, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow ME.

Further reference would be thread --> Can you lose your salvation # 362 #368

Clearly both, up straightway out of the water: and the heavens opens, and the Spirit of God descends like a dove, and lighting upon.

This brings up two questions.

1) Scripture says ONE baptism not two, so it cannot be both.

2) Jesus IS God and therefore did not need the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, nor did the indwelling of the Holy spirit begin until after Jesus' death and resurrection. Therefore the Holy Spirit coming as a dove does not and cannot represent the same thing.

This brings up two questions.

1) Scripture says ONE baptism not two, so it cannot be both.

2) Jesus IS God and therefore did not need the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, nor did the indwelling of the Holy spirit begin until after Jesus' death and resurrection. Therefore the Holy Spirit coming as a dove does not and cannot represent the same thing.


Jesus is NOT god. It never once says in the bible that jesus is god. He specifically says 'in the name of MY FATHER' he doesn't pray to himself does he? He asked GOD to forgive them when they sacrificed him. He didn't ask himself to forgive them.


But I do understand why you would think jesus is god :)

Jesus is NOT god. it never once says in the bible that jesus is god. he specifically says 'in the name of MY FATHER' he doesnt pray to himself does he? he asked GOD to forgive them when they sacrificed him. he didnt ask himself to forgive them.

but i do understand why you would think jesus is god :)

John 8:24-25
24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
NKJV

Please note that in the original Greek, the word "he" is not there, nmeaning that this literally says:

"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins."

The term used in Greek is an emphatic declaration that Jesus is "I AM", the same identification that God gave for Himself in the OT.

Ex 3:14
14 And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.' "
NKJV

Jesus used the Septuagint, which was a contemporary Greek translation of the Bible, and it calls God in Exodus by the same term that Jesus uses for Himself. That would explain why, when Jesus called Himself by that same term in John 8:58:

John 8:57-59
58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." 59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
NKJV

The Jews took up stones to kill Him because they knew and understood that He was calling Himself God.

We have many other places in scripture where Jesus is called God, for example:

John 1:1-2
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NKJV

Heb 1:8
8 But to the Son He says:
"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
NKJV

An exhaustive study of the declaration of the divinity of Jesus throughout scripture would be a major work in and of itself, and that is not the topic of this thread. But if you would like to discuss this further, please start another thread with that comment or question and we can get into what scripture says in more detail.

I understand that to be your denominational teaching, but that is not what we find in scripture. If you wish to argue what your denomination teaches, you are on a different topic.

I notice that your validation for your position is entirely denominational, so there is no need for any further response.

The Church receives God’s revealed truth from Tradition handed down from the Apostles, from a special written form of Catholic Tradition called Scripture and from communion with the Holy Spirit. This truth cannont be denied at judgement.

John 8:24-25
24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
NKJV

Please note that in the original Greek, the word "he" is not there, nmeaning that this literally says:

"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins."

The term used in Greek is an emphatic declaration that Jesus is "I AM", the same identification that God gave for Himself in the OT.

Ex 3:14
14 And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.' "
NKJV

Jesus used the Septuagint, which was a contemporary Greek translation of the Bible, and it calls God in Exodus by the exact same term that Jesus uses for Himself. That would explain why, when Jesus called Himself by that same term in John 8:58:

John 8:57-59
58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." 59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
NKJV

The Jews took up stones to kill Him because they knew and understood that He was calling Himself God.

We have many other places in scripture where Jesus is called God, for example:

John 1:1-2
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NKJV

Heb 1:8
8 But to the Son He says:
"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
NKJV

An exhaustive study of the declaration of the divinity of Jesus throughout scripture would be a major work in and of itself, and that is not the topic of this thread. But if you would like to discuss this further, please start another thread with that comment or question and we can get into what scripture says in more detail.

Tom,

YES! He IS GOD! And how right you are.. the Jews back then had NO problem understanding EXACTLY what he meant and they hated him for it too!

The Church receives God’s revealed truth from Tradition handed down from the Apostles, from a special written form of Catholic Tradition called Scripture and from communion with the Holy Spirit. This truth cannont be denied at judgement.

That is your claim. But your denomination started well after all the Apostles had died.
The one true church is not a denomination, nor does God require any denominations teachings or traditions. He gave us His word in writing.

You are, of course, welcome to abide by the teachings of your denomination,but you have no right to demand that others submit themselves to your denomination. I'll stick with the written word of God, as He commanded.

The,
Wrong!!
The Church started with the Apostles just as the bible says.
Believe as you wish but your wishes will not change historical fact.
Fred

Tje,
Wrong!!!
The Church started with the Apostles just as the bible says.
Believe as you wish but your wishes will not change historical fact.
Fred

"The Church" did, but not your denomination or any others. Yours started in the 4th century.

Now, we have been over this many times. Rather than trying to hijack this thread with denominational prejudices against Christians not of your denomination, why not let us continue to discuss the topic at hand.

Yj3, You Know very well that the Catholic Church IS The Church Jesus founded, because it has been shown to you that it is.
I know that you refuse to believe it but that does not change historical and biblical fact.
Fred

Yj3, You Know very well that the Catholic Church IS The Church Jesus founded, because it has been shown to you that it is.
I know that you refuse to believe it but that does not change historical and biblical fact.
Fred

Fred,

Jesus founded NO denomination. The RCC was founded in the 4th century.

Now would you please stop trying to hijack this thread.

Tj3,
As you have been told by many several times when Jesus founded The Church there were not denominations. Denominations came along much later in history.
Trying to label The Catholic Church as a denomination way beck the is a futile effort and is of NOT consequence.
Fred

Tj3,
As you have been told by many several times when Jesus founded The Church there were not denominations. Denominations came along much later in history.

Fred,

You can tell me, but I don't have to believe you, especially when I can read history and scripture for myself, and see what the truth is about the later date for the founding of your denomination.

Please stop hijacking the thread.

Back to the topic...


Clearly both, up straightway out of the water: and the heavens opens, and the Spirit of God descends like a dove, and lighting upon.

This brings up two questions.

1) Scripture says ONE baptism not two, so it cannot be both.

2) Jesus IS God and therefore did not need the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, nor did the indwelling of the Holy spirit begin until after Jesus' death and resurrection. Therefore the Holy Spirit coming as a dove does not and cannot represent the same thing.

Tj3,
I HAVE read history and the bible.
That is what I stopped being a fundamentalist Protestant.
Fred

Fine Fred - believe as you wish - back to the topic...


Clearly both, up straightway out of the water: and the heavens opens, and the Spirit of God descends like a dove, and lighting upon.

This brings up two questions.

1) Scripture says ONE baptism not two, so it cannot be both.

2) Jesus IS God and therefore did not need the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, nor did the indwelling of the Holy spirit begin until after Jesus' death and resurrection. Therefore the Holy Spirit coming as a dove does not and cannot represent the same thing.

Thanks Tom.
As I said before I WILL believe as I want to.
Fred

Fine Fred - believe as you wish - back to the topic...


Clearly both, up straightway out of the water: and the heavens opens, and the Spirit of God descends like a dove, and lighting upon.

This brings up two questions.

1) Scripture says ONE baptism not two, so it cannot be both.

2) Jesus IS God and therefore did not need the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, nor did the indwelling of the Holy spirit begin until after Jesus' death and resurrection. Therefore the Holy Spirit coming as a dove does not and cannot represent the same thing.

This brings up two questions.

1) Scripture says ONE baptism not two, so it cannot be both.

Everyone acknowledges that Christ was baptized in water and the HOLY SPIRIT came upon HIM. That is the ONE baptism!

To say it is not, makes void the word of God.




Jesus IS God


We are to confess Jesus as the begotten Son of God (another thread)



and therefore did not need the indwelling of the Holy Spirit,

You obviously have not read previous scripture in which I reference this point.

1 Corthinians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.





nor did the indwelling of the Holy spirit begin until after Jesus' death and resurrection. Therefore the Holy Spirit coming as a dove does not and cannot represent the same thing.

The indwelling for us, of the Spirit of Christ as one with the HOLY SPIRIT was not possible before HIS death and resurrection. However, John was filled with the Holy Spirit from the time of being in his mother's womb.

Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

This is all so important in understanding the works of God. The acknowledge evidence in three identities being ONE.

Everyone acknowledges that Christ was baptized in water and the HOLY SPIRIT came upon HIM. That is the ONE baptism!

To say it is not, makes void the word of God.

Again, that is not what scripture refers to as baptism of the Holy Spirit. Indeed the person who baptizes with the Holy Spirit is Jesus. Further, that ministry of the Holy Spirit did not begin until later, and lastly, Jesus is God - are you saying that Jesus, being the God man, also needed something more of God - God needed to indwell God?

This does not make logical sense, nor is it scriptural.



You obviously have not read previous scripture in which I reference this point.

1 Corthinians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.



I read it, agree with it, but I don't see how it validates your point. Please clarify.


The indwelling for us, of the Spirit of Christ [U]as one with the HOLY SPIRIT was not possible before HIS death and resurrection. However, John was filled with the Holy Spirit from the time of being in his mother's womb.

[B]Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

Agreed. But there is a difference between the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the filling of the Holy Spirit. In the OT, men could be filled with the Holy Spirit for a single purpose, for example:

Ex 31:1-6
31:1 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying: 2 "See, I have called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. 3 And I have filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, 4 to design artistic works, to work in gold, in silver, in bronze, 5 in cutting jewels for setting, in carving wood, and to work in all manner of workmanship.
NKJV

But that is not the same as the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It is only after the death of Christ that we have the indwelling ministry, confirmed by Jesus Himself:

John 7:37-39
37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
NKJV

Now if you try to equate the OT ministry of the filling of the Holy Spirit with the NT ministry of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, then you are saying that Jesus erred when He said that this had not yet happened.

You are basing your argument on assumed silence. And yet we find many references to people who have been saved while subsequently being sanctified, in scripture.

I don't see how I'm basing anything on any assumed silence. Perhaps you could explain what you have in mind.

In any case, your remarks here demonstrate once again that you are firmly in the grip of the view that regards salvation--and sanctification, and your recent remarks demonstrate--as an event rather than as a process. What you say here takes it for granted that someone was saved, that his or her salvation was complete and perfected, at a particular time (say, 3:14pm on November 11, 1974) and that that person was sanctified at a particular moment after that (say 7:18am on June 9, 1982). But, as my earlier post explained, there are reasons not to regard salvation--nor of sanctification--as a punctuated event but as a process that continues throughout one's life and, indeed, into the hereafter. I would argue that we are not passive spectators but active participants in this process adding--yes, "adding--our efforts to the transformative work work undertaken in us by God's unmerited grace.

The process of sanctification begins when the process of salvation begins; they are coterminous--in fact, they are one and the same process. One's salvation is not complete until one is perfected by participation in the Divine nature in eternity. That this is not a single event but rather a process is further reflected by the fact that the NT speaks of one's salvation in past, present, and future tenses. (Were it an event, it would make no sense for Scripture to speak of it in the present and future tenses--I am being saved, language that strongly suggests a process that is underway, and I will be saved.) I would be interested to see a passage from Scripture which states that the process of sanctification begins sometime after the process of salvation begins. If you know of one, please post it. I would have thought that one cannot be sanctified without being saved and that one cannot be saved without being sanctified.


Did you notice that Peter said that he had received the Holy Spirit just as they had - so are you saying that Peter did not yet have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

Well, as I've said before, I don't know what you mean by "indwelling" and that has a lot to do with the fact that I don't think that you know what you mean by it. As you deploy it on these boards it appears to me to be little more than a facon de parler. Other than quoting a couple of NKJV verses that include the word "dwell", I've never seen you actually explain what you take it to mean.

I am therefore not in a position to give an intellectually honest response to your question. What I can say is this: There is nothing in Acts 10 that is in tension with the idea that baptism in water is baptism by the Holy Spirit, that they are not two events but are in fact one and the same event. If you take there to be some problem that I am not seeing, kindly spell it out. From the fact that Cornelius received gifts of the Holy Spirit it doesn't follow that he was baptized thereby. And the text certainly doesn't say that he was baptized thereby, so it is wrong of you to attempt to construe it thus. You are, therefore, adding to the words of Scripture. As I said in my other post, not all actions of the Holy Spirit are baptismal in nature, and this is borne out by the fact that Cornelius received the gifts of the Holy Spirit and is then baptized. Clearly, the gifts he received were not baptismal in nature. This fact is reflected by the insistence of Peter that Cornelius be baptized at once. Clearly something is conferred by baptism--to be precise, baptism in water--that Peter felt it important for Cornelius to receive.

I don't see how I'm basing anything on any assumed silence. Perhaps you could explain what you have in mind.

If you believe that scripture says that we are not saved until we are fully snctified, then show us the specific references from the Bible.


In any case, your remarks here demonstrate once again that you are firmly in the grip of the view that regards salvation--and sanctification, and your recent remarks demonstrate--as an event rather than as a process.

Actually that is not true. As I have stated before, you do an extremely poor job of trying to tell me what I must believe. Stick to defending your position, and I will look after mine - deal?

Sanctification is a process - I have never said otherwise. Now rather than trying to bring forward strawmen, how about scriptural support for your position?


Well, as I've said before, I don't know what you mean by "indwelling" and that has a lot to do with the fact that I don't think that you know what you mean by it. As you deploy it on these boards it appears to me to be little more than a facon de parler. Other than quoting a couple of NKJV verses that include the word "dwell", I've never seen you actually explain what you take it to mean.

I take it at face value, Akoue. The Holy Spirit comes to indwell the believer. I do not understand what you problem in understanding this is. Do you not understand the word indwell? Please clarify. Maybe a good book on the ministry of the Holy Spirit might be helpful to you.


There is nothing in Acts 10 that is in tension with the idea that baptism in water is baptism by the Holy Spirit, that they are not two events but are in fact one and the same event.

Other than the fact that the baptism of the Holy Spirit occurs at an entirely different time, and before water baptism.

"The Church" did, but not your denomination or any others. Yours started in the 4th century.

Now, we have been over this many times.

We have indeed been over it many times, this for the reason that you keep bringing it up. Now you have been shown many times to be in error regarding this pseudo-historical claim and yet you persistently insert it into discussions. I can only think that you do it for its shock-value, as a purely polemical maneuver that is and is intended to be sheer demagoguery.

Your historical claims have been systematically refuted. I have posted the names of several prominent and highly respected historians whose work gives the lie to your assertion that the Roman Catholic Church started in the fourth century, this for the benefit of people who may want to look into it one their own. Despite repeated invitations to do so, you have to date refused to post the names of prominent and highly respected historians of Christianity whose work supports your contention. You have repeatedly demonstrated your inability to vindicate your assertion--an assertion which is calibrated to elicit a response--and you have doggedly refused to provide any bibliographic support for it. Now you are big on giving credit to the work of others. You claim to have found this assertion defended in the work of prominent and reputable scholars. How about if you post names and titles here, in the interests of giving appropriate credit to the work of others, work from which you claim to have come by your belief that the RCC stared in the fourth century. If you'd rather not post it on this thread, you can just PM it to me. That way you won't be guilty of failing to acknowledge and give credit to the scholarly work of others.

Perhaps once I've had a chance to read them and acquaint myself with their arguments I can open a thread in the discussion forum where we can have a detailed conversation about the merits of your view. As I say, just post the bibliographic info here or, if you worry about hijacking the thread, just PM it to me. That should move things along nicely on this particular front. I look forward to seeing the stuff you've read.

We have indeed been over it many times, this for the reason that you keep bringing it up.

No, you have claimed many times that you are right and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. That is not compelling. If you think that you are right, then you must prove your position as anyone else. We even had a thread (maybe more than one) on this topic.

In any case, hijacking yet another thread with the effort to force your denominational teachings on others is not appropriate. Please stay on topic. Start another thread if you wish.

If you think that you are right, then you must prove your position as anyone else. We even had a thread (maybe more than one) on this topic.
That position has been proven over and over again with more than adequate support. The only person who has not proven and supported his position is you.

That position has been proven over and over again with more than adequate support. The only person who has not proven and supported his position is you.

Your opinion is noted - but it remains solely that - your opinion. Knowing your beliefs on the topic, I'd be surprised if you said anything else.

Let's see if we can get back on topic...


I don't see how I'm basing anything on any assumed silence. Perhaps you could explain what you have in mind.

If you believe that scripture says that we are not saved until we are fully snctified, then show us the specific references from the Bible.


In any case, your remarks here demonstrate once again that you are firmly in the grip of the view that regards salvation--and sanctification, and your recent remarks demonstrate--as an event rather than as a process.

Actually that is not true. As I have stated before, you do an extremely poor job of trying to tell me what I must believe. Stick to defending your position, and I will look after mine - deal?

Sanctification is a process - I have never said otherwise. Now rather than trying to bring forward strawmen, how about scriptural support for your position?


Well, as I've said before, I don't know what you mean by "indwelling" and that has a lot to do with the fact that I don't think that you know what you mean by it. As you deploy it on these boards it appears to me to be little more than a facon de parler. Other than quoting a couple of NKJV verses that include the word "dwell", I've never seen you actually explain what you take it to mean.

I take it at face value, Akoue. The Holy Spirit comes to indwell the believer. I do not understand what you problem in understanding this is. Do you not understand the word indwell? Please clarify. Maybe a good book on the ministry of the Holy Spirit might be helpful to you.


There is nothing in Acts 10 that is in tension with the idea that baptism in water is baptism by the Holy Spirit, that they are not two events but are in fact one and the same event.

Other than the fact that the baptism of the Holy Spirit occurs at an entirely different time, and before water baptism.

Your opinion is noted - but it remains solely that - your opinion. Knowing your beliefs on the topic, I'd be surprised if you said anything else.
I'll only give you an appropriate Tomism: "Avoid the issue if you cannot deal with the facts seems to be the name of the game."

I'll only give you an appropriate Tomism: "Avoid the issue if you cannot deal with the facts seems to be the name of the game."

Are you going to get back into personal attacks against me again, and try to hijack the thread, or are you on here to discuss the topic?

Let's try to get back on topic once again:


Let's see if we can get back on topic...


I don't see how I'm basing anything on any assumed silence. Perhaps you could explain what you have in mind.

If you believe that scripture says that we are not saved until we are fully snctified, then show us the specific references from the Bible.


In any case, your remarks here demonstrate once again that you are firmly in the grip of the view that regards salvation--and sanctification, and your recent remarks demonstrate--as an event rather than as a process.

Actually that is not true. As I have stated before, you do an extremely poor job of trying to tell me what I must believe. Stick to defending your position, and I will look after mine - deal?

Sanctification is a process - I have never said otherwise. Now rather than trying to bring forward strawmen, how about scriptural support for your position?


Well, as I've said before, I don't know what you mean by "indwelling" and that has a lot to do with the fact that I don't think that you know what you mean by it. As you deploy it on these boards it appears to me to be little more than a facon de parler. Other than quoting a couple of NKJV verses that include the word "dwell", I've never seen you actually explain what you take it to mean.

I take it at face value, Akoue. The Holy Spirit comes to indwell the believer. I do not understand what you problem in understanding this is. Do you not understand the word indwell? Please clarify. Maybe a good book on the ministry of the Holy Spirit might be helpful to you.


There is nothing in Acts 10 that is in tension with the idea that baptism in water is baptism by the Holy Spirit, that they are not two events but are in fact one and the same event.

Other than the fact that the baptism of the Holy Spirit occurs at an entirely different time, and before water baptism.

Are you going to get back into personal attacks against me again, and try to hijack the thread, or are you on here to discuss the topic?
The quote is from you to me. You're attacking yourself.

I agree completely with Akoue and cannot understand what there is to wonder about.

The quote is from you to me. You're attacking yourself.

I agree completely with Akoue and cannot understand what there is to wonder about.

No, WG, you are quoting things out of context. If I wanted to drag myself to that level, I could start quoting you, but I see no value in that approach. I'd rather study what God's word has to say.

Now, are you going on topic, or do you plan further derogatory personal comments?

Let's try to get back on topic once again:



I don't see how I'm basing anything on any assumed silence. Perhaps you could explain what you have in mind.

If you believe that scripture says that we are not saved until we are fully snctified, then show us the specific references from the Bible.


In any case, your remarks here demonstrate once again that you are firmly in the grip of the view that regards salvation--and sanctification, and your recent remarks demonstrate--as an event rather than as a process.

Actually that is not true. As I have stated before, you do an extremely poor job of trying to tell me what I must believe. Stick to defending your position, and I will look after mine - deal?

Sanctification is a process - I have never said otherwise. Now rather than trying to bring forward strawmen, how about scriptural support for your position?


Well, as I've said before, I don't know what you mean by "indwelling" and that has a lot to do with the fact that I don't think that you know what you mean by it. As you deploy it on these boards it appears to me to be little more than a facon de parler. Other than quoting a couple of NKJV verses that include the word "dwell", I've never seen you actually explain what you take it to mean.

I take it at face value, Akoue. The Holy Spirit comes to indwell the believer. I do not understand what you problem in understanding this is. Do you not understand the word indwell? Please clarify. Maybe a good book on the ministry of the Holy Spirit might be helpful to you.


There is nothing in Acts 10 that is in tension with the idea that baptism in water is baptism by the Holy Spirit, that they are not two events but are in fact one and the same event.

Other than the fact that the baptism of the Holy Spirit occurs at an entirely different time, and before water baptism.

If you believe that scripture says that we are not saved until we are fully snctified, then show us the specific references from the Bible.
Akoue didn't say that. He said this:

"In any case, your remarks here demonstrate once again that you are firmly in the grip of the view that regards salvation--and sanctification, and your recent remarks demonstrate--as an event rather than as a process. What you say here takes it for granted that someone was saved, that his or her salvation was complete and perfected, at a particular time (say, 3:14pm on November 11, 1974) and that that person was sanctified at a particular moment after that (say 7:18am on June 9, 1982). But, as my earlier post explained, there are reasons not to regard salvation--nor of sanctification--as a punctuated event but as a process that continues throughout one's life and, indeed, into the hereafter. I would argue that we are not passive spectators but active participants in this process adding--yes, 'adding'--our efforts to the transformative work work undertaken in us by God's unmerited grace.

The process of sanctification begins when the process of salvation begins; they are coterminous--in fact, they are one and the same process. One's salvation is not complete until one is perfected by participation in the Divine nature in eternity. That this is not a single event but rather a process is further reflected by the fact that the NT speaks of one's salvation in past, present, and future tenses. (Were it an event, it would make no sense for Scripture to speak of it in the present and future tenses--I am being saved, language that strongly suggests a process that is underway, and I will be saved.) I would be interested to see a passage from Scripture which states that the process of sanctification begins sometime after the process of salvation begins. If you know of one, please post it. I would have thought that one cannot be sanctified without being saved and that one cannot be saved without being sanctified."


you do an extremely poor job of trying to tell me what I must believe.
We can only read what you write and guess from that what you believe.

I could start quoting you
That might be the perfect solution! Please begin with my explanation on another thread on which I carefully and thoroughly explained how the Roman Catholic Church developed from the early mission churches.

Akoue didn't say that.

I quoted what he said, which includes:

"The process of sanctification begins when the process of salvation begins; they are coterminous--in fact, they are one and the same process."

This is not found in scripture. I asked him to validate it from scripture.

I am saved now. Whether you and Akoue are or not is between you and God.

That might be the perfect solution!

I don't lower myself to the level of taking someone else comments a=out of context and then try to use them against the person.


Please begin with my explanation on another thread on which I carefully and thoroughly explained how the Roman Catholic Church developed from the early mission churches.

If you wish to start another thread on when that denomination began, then please don't hijack this thread - start another.

Akoue didn't say that.

I quoted what he said, which includes:

"The process of sanctification begins when the process of salvation begins; they are coterminous--in fact, they are one and the same process."

This is not found in scripture. I am saved now.
We grow in grace. It is a process, like Akoue said.

We grow in grace. It is a process, like Akoue said.

I agree that we grow in grace. If he said that and stopped there, we would be in agreement.

I agree that we grow in grace. If he said that and stopped there, we would be in agreement.
So what parts didn't you like?

So what parts didn't you like?

I already responded. He mistakes sanctification in part for salvation.

I already responded. He mistakes sanctification in part for salvation.
No, he doesn't. Please reread.

No, he doesn't. Please reread.

I did. Let me quote an excerpt for your benefit once again:

"...they are one and the same process."

Instead of arguing with "no he didn't, yes he did" approach, why don't you present your defense of your position from scripture and let's discuss.

I did. Let me quote an excerpt for your benefit once again:

"...they are one and the same process."

Instead of arguing with "no he didn't, yes he did" approach, why don't you present your defense of your position from scripture and let's discuss.
Jesus' death on the cross was the event. Our salvation and santification, i.e. the two being the "growing in grace," are intricately intertwined. They are processes, not one-time events. As Akoue said, "One's salvation is not complete until one is perfected by participation in the Divine nature in eternity."

Christians have been saved, through Jesus' sacrifice, from the penalty of sin.

Cristians are being saved from the power of sin.

"The word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are being saved [Greek participle in present tense], it is the power of God" (1 Cor. 1:18).

Phil. 2:12 says: "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." The Philippian converts were to make effective for themselves the new life that the Holy Spirit had put into their hearts. Again, Christians are being saved through the work of the Spirit, a progressive salvation/sanctification. It has to do not with soul, nor with body, but with life, with growing in grace.

Christians shall be saved from the presence of sin.

Rom. 8:23 -- this future salvation is "the redemption of our body" that will take place in the resurrection of those who sleep in Christ (1 Cor. 15:52-56). Then the regenerated spirit will enter into the full fruition of salvation, as Akoue stated.

Thus, there are different phases of salvation. One cannot remove one or nullify any of the others.

Paul, in Phil 1:6 and 2:13, tells us how God begins the work of salvation and carries it on to its conclusion in heaven. All along the way, God works in us "both to will and to do His good pleasure," with grace through faith.

Oops

Jesus' death on the cross was the event. Our salvation and santification, i.e., the two being the "growing in grace," are intricately intertwined. They are processes, not one-time events. As Akoue said, "One's salvation is not complete until one is perfected by participation in the Divine nature in eternity."

Yet, we find throughout scripture that we are saved when we receive Christ as Saviour.

Titus 3:4-8
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
NKJV

I could provide many other references, but clearly salvation is referred to as a past event. Sanctification clearly is an on-going process starting when we are saved.

I could provide many other references, but clearly salvation is referred to as a past event. Sanctification clearly is an on-going process starting when we are saved.
You mean I typed my heart out and looked up Bible passages all for naught?

Phil. 1:6 -- "being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."

I set forth my arguments cogently and with proper, even fantastic, Bible support. Did you even read what I wrote? If not, please do. Or are you just going to continue to sit there like a stubborn two-year-old (yeah, yeah, I know what you are going to say, so then don't act like one!) who refuses to enter into any kind of discussion because it's his way or no way?

Please explain to me what this means then, if not what I said it does --

Phil. 1:6 -- "being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."

That God is the Author and finisher of our salvation

You mean I typed my heart out and looked up Bible passages all for naught?

I don't know if you did it for naught. When I post I do it for the Lord. What your purposes are, are between you and the Lord.


Phil. 1:6 -- "being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."

And I agree entirely - Sanctification. I said so already.


I set forth my arguments cogently and with proper, even fantastic, Bible support. Did you even read what I wrote?

Yes, and I responded. That does not mean that I must agree with you, or your interpretation.

Or are you just going to continue to sit there like a stubborn two-year-old (yeah, yeah, I know what you are going to say, so then don't act like one!)

One of the tests of maturity is how one reacts when they are faced with disagreement. Personally, I don't think that derogatory comments strike me as a mature response.


who refuses to enter into any kind of discussion because it's his way or no way?

Then please do not demand that I accept your interpretation and beliefs simply because you post what you think is a killer argument. Discussions are a two way street and I am no more obligated to submit to your position than you to mine.

Yet, we find throughout scripture that we are saved when we receive Christ as Saviour.

Titus 3:4-8
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
NKJV

I could provide many other references, but clearly salvation is referred to as a past event. Sanctification clearly is an on-going process starting when we are saved.
I said Jesus' death on the cross was the event, the one-time event. Otherwise, our salvation is ongoing as it is linked with sanctification. I listed past, present, and future processes along with supporting Bible verses.

I said Jesus' death on the cross was the event, the one-time event. Otherwise, our salvation is ongoing as it is linked with sanctification.

I know that you said it. I just don't agree that that teaching is found in scripture.


I listed past, present, and future processes along with supporting Bible verses.

That you did. And I responded. Like I said, I am not required to agree with your interpretation of those verses.

I know that you said it. I just don't agree that that teaching is found in scripture. That you did. And I responded. Like I said, I am not required to agree with your interpretation of those verses.
The Bible is very clear.

The Bible is very clear.

I agree that it is clear.

I already responded. He mistakes sanctification in part for salvation.

If sanctification isn't a part of salvation then what's the point of salvation?

But we know “Sanctitas in the Vulgate of the New Testament as one of two words, hagiosyne (1 Thess. iii,13) and hosiotes (Luke 1:75; Ephesians 4:24). These two Greek words express respectively the two ideas connoted by "holiness" viz.: that of separation as seen in hagios from hagos, which denotes "any matter of religious awe" (the Latin sacer); and that of sanctioned (sancitus), that which is hosios has received God's seal.” Furthermore we know that “Sanctifying Graces(gratia, Charis), in general, is a supernatural gift of God to intellectual creatures (men, angels) for their eternal salvation,” CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Sanctifying Grace (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06701a.htm)

And as Paul teaches God has chosen you for salvation by making you first holy, i.e. a process you must cooperate with. "But we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved of God, for that God hath chosen you firstfruits unto salvation, in sanctification of the spirit and faith of the truth": (2 Thess 2)

So you can see there is only one mistake here.

JoeT

I agree that it is clear.
As is Phil. 1:6 -- "being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."

That God is the Author and finisher of our salvation
Ah, you got it! God began the work of salvation on Calvary and will finish it when He gives us our crowns of glory in heaven. (Stop by the celestial kitchen then and I will sit you down with some freshly-baked brownies and a glass of cold milk --or coffee, if you prefer.)

As is Phil. 1:6 -- "being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."

I already responded to this one, and saw nothing back from you. Maybe it is not obvious, but just because you keep saying it does not mean that I am suddenly going to agree with your interpretation.

Might I suggest that you may be more effective if you were to actually explain why you disagree with my response and actually carry on a discussion rather than demand I agree with you simply because you say so. Maybe your husband says "yes, dear" to everything you say, but I don't! ;)

I don't know if you did it for naught. When I post I do it for the Lord. What your purposes are, are between you and the Lord.
Do you know what "for naught" means?

And I agree entirely - Sanctification. I said so already.
Good. Santification entwined with salvation.

One of the tests of maturity is how one reacts when they are faced with disagreement. Personally, I don't think that derigatory comments strike me as a mature response.
This wasn't a test of maturity on my part. It was a test of my maternal patience. Apparently, I was close to failing. At least, all I ended up doing was identify the problem.

Then please do not demand that I accept your interpretation and beliefs simply because you post what you think is a killer argument.
The Bible says what it says, and quite clearly--even very clearly.

If sanctification isn’t a part of salvation then what’s the point of salvation?

I am surprised that you asked this question. The point of salvation is atonement from our sins:

Rev 1:5-7
To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
NKJV
Sanctification is a result of and follows that atonement (we cannot be sanctified if we are still slaves to sin).

Do you know what "for naught" means?

I find these silly back and forth volleys tiring. Please focus on a discussion on the topic.


Good. Santification entwined with salvation.

Don't twist my words. That passage was speaking of sanctification - where did it say that the sanctification was intertwined with salvation. Once again, I don't just say "yes, dear" when you tell me what I am to believe. Deal with it. If you think that it says that salvation is interwined with sanctification as a combined process, then explain your position and we can discuss.


The Bible says what it says, and quite clearly--even very clearly.

Yes, it does - at least we agree on that point. It is because it is so clear that I don't just submit to your interpretation!

If you think that it says that salvation is interwined with sanctification as a combined process, then explain your position and we can discuss.
I did already.

I did already.

Ho hum - just repeating the sane verse over and over isn't cutting it.

Ho hum - just repeating the sane verse over and over isn't cutting it.
Yes, it IS a sane verse, isn't it.

Please reread my Post #156, then we can discuss. So far all you have said is that you don't like "my" interpretation. Those verses are very clear. Which parts don't you understand?

Please reread my Post #156, then we can discuss. So far all you have said is that you don't like "my" interpretation. Those verses are very clear. Which parts don't you understand?

I understand it all and responded already.

Ditto to you my post #157. You might also find #172 and 173 good to read.

I understand it all and responded already.
So you have no response to/discussion regarding the verses I quoted, nor will you cite any further proofs yourself. You are "clear" on this topic and do not wish to discuss it further.


Ditto to you my post #157
That's homesell's post.

So you have no response to/discussion regarding the verses I quoted, nor will you cite any further proofs yourself. You are "clear" on this topic and do not wish to discuss it further.

I already provided a scripture reference and explained where I find your argument lacking. If yopu are unwilling to respond further, then I guess that we leave it there.


That's homesell's post.
The first reference that you gave me was homseel saying "oops". I have noticed before that sometimes for different people, the post numbering will be one off from another person.

I added two more posts that maybe you did not read already. If you care to discuss at all, these are 172 and 173.

If all you want to do is to point to past posts, then let's not.

I already provided a scripture reference and explained where I find your argument lacking. If yopu are unwilling to respond further, then I guess that we leave it there.


The first reference that you gave me was homseel saying "oops". I have noticed before that sometimes for different people, the post numbering will be one off from another person.

I added two more posts that maybe you did not read already. If you care to discuss at all, these are 172 and 173.

If all you want to do is to point to past posts, then let's not.
So the following is meaningless to you, that salvation is ongoing for Christians?

Christians have been saved, through Jesus' sacrifice, from the penalty of sin.

Christians are being saved from the power of sin.

"The word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are being saved [Greek participle in present tense], it is the power of God" (1 Cor. 1:18).

Phil. 2:12 says: "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." The Philippian converts were to make effective for themselves the new life that the Holy Spirit had put into their hearts. Again, Christians are being saved through the work of the Spirit, a progressive salvation/sanctification. It has to do not with soul, nor with body, but with life, with growing in grace.

Christians shall be saved from the presence of sin.

Rom. 8:23 -- this future salvation is "the redemption of our body" that will take place in the resurrection of those who sleep in Christ (1 Cor. 15:52-56). Then the regenerated spirit will enter into the full fruition of salvation, as Akoue stated.

Thus, there are different phases of salvation. One cannot remove one or nullify any of the others.

Paul, in Phil 1:6 and 2:13, tells us how God begins the work of salvation and carries it on to its conclusion in heaven. All along the way, God works in us "both to will and to do His good pleasure," with grace through faith.

So the following is meaningless to you, that salvation is ongoing for Christians?

Again, please don't twist my words. I never said that anything was meaningless.


"The word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are being saved [Greek participle in present tense], it is the power of God" (1 Cor. 1:18).

Many people are being saved. This does not mean that we are halfway through being saved, it means that at any point in time, the Holy Spirit is working on the hearts of the unsaved and we find people around the world coming to Christ and being saved.


Phil. 2:12 says: "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." The Philippian converts were to make effective for themselves the new life that the Holy Spirit had put into their hearts. Again, Christians are being saved through the work of the Spirit, a progressive salvation/sanctification. It has to do not with soul, nor with body, but with life, with growing in grace.

First, if you are suggesting that this refers to a process, and that we are all unsaved now or 10% saved, or 50% saved, then you must be saying that it is not God who saves, but us since this is telling us to work out our salvation.

But no, that cannot be what it means because the next verse says:

Phil 2:12-14
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
NKJV

In context, both local and the rest of scripture, this is speaking of taking the work that God has already done in us seriously (in fear and trembling) and not taking it lightly. We are not just to carry on as before, but our salvation must change us and must show in how we live. Further, this speaks to the other thread on whether it is possible for us to reject our salvation, because this also speaks to our perseverance to the end.

Have you ever heard people say that a couple must work at their marriage? Does that mean that they are not married and will only be married when they come to the end and die? No, that would be silly. What it means is that once you are married, it is important to continue to work at the marriage.



Christians shall be saved from the presence of sin.

Rom. 8:23 -- this future salvation is "the redemption of our body" that will take place in the resurrection of those who sleep in Christ (1 Cor. 15:52-56). Then the regenerated spirit will enter into the full fruition of salvation, as Akoue stated.

Rom 8:23-24
23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
NKJV

This refers to when we received our glorified bodies, with the corruption of sin or sickness. Different topic. The fact that our bodies get sick due to the effects of sin in the world does not mean that those who receive Christ as saviour are any less saved.

and

1 Cor 15:52
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
NKJV

This refers to the rapture of the saints.

I still see nothing to refute what Paul said about the salvation of the individuals being in the past sense.


BTW, I notice that you made no effort to respond to that message. Was that scripture reference meaningless to you?

You may not be 50 or 10 percent saved, but we are 50 to 70 percent close to closing this thread if we don't stop the fighting back and forth

Many people are being saved. This does not mean that we are halfway through being saved
Did I say that? No, I didn't. I said that salvation is linked with sanctification and that the whole package is a process that ends in heaven.

First, if you are suggesting that this refers to a process, and that we are all unsaved now or 10% saved, or 50% saved, then you must be saying that it is not God who saves, but us since this is telling us to work out our salvation.
That's not what I said. No wonder you are having problems understanding "my interpretation."

Phil 2:12-14
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13for it is God who works [present tense] in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. NKJV

Christians shall be saved from the presence of sin.

Gal 3:1-3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?(KJV)

Roman 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.



Rom. 8:23 -- this future salvation is "the redemption of our body" that will take place in the resurrection of those who sleep in Christ (1 Cor. 15:52-56). Then the regenerated spirit will enter into the full fruition of salvation, as Akoue stated.

Romans 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

If the individual does not follow Christ is Faith, to believe he or she are delivered from the bondage of sin, then sin has the strength by the law because they have remained under the law. Death is assured in sin. We come out from under the law to establish a new law in Faith in Christ Jesus.

1 Cr 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Did I say that? No, I didn't. I said that salvation is linked with sanctification and that the whole package is a process that ends in heaven.

Then you would agree that salvation occurs when one makes a decision for Christ, and that sanctification follows?

We seem to be going back and forth on this.It would be really helpful if you would be clear on what it is that you believe.


That's not what I said. No wonder you are having problems understanding "my interpretation."

Again, perhaps if you would be abundantly clear on what your interpretation is. It seems that whatever I say, you are opposed to. Why don't you tell us what it is that you actually are trying to say.

Then you would agree that salvation occurs when one makes a decision for Christ, and that sanctification follows?

We seem to be going back and forth on this.It would be really helpful if you would be clear on what it is that you believe.


Again, perhaps if you would be abundantly clear on what your interpretation is. It seems that whatever I say, you are opposed to. Why don't you tell us what it is that you actually are trying to say.

Justification along with sanctification which are obtained through baptism for our salvation.

Holiness or sanctity is the outcome of sanctification, that Divine act by which God freely justifies us.

JoeT

Justification along with sanctification which are obtained through baptism for our salvation.

Where do you find that in scripture?

Then you would agree that salvation occurs when one makes a decision for Christ, and that sanctification follows?
Salvation occurred when Jesus died on the cross. The Holy Spirit begins the work of salvation combined with sanctification even when an infant is baptized. The Bible says the Spirit makes possible our coming to the Father through Jesus. KJV Eph. 2:18 -- "For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father."

Salvation occurred when Jesus died on the cross.

Actually, that is when the price was paid. Just because He died on the cross for everyone is not a guarantee that everyone will be saved. That would be a heresy of universalism.

Salvation requires that we received His free gift of atonement for our sins that results from the sacrifice on the cross. Until we do, we are not saved.


The Holy Spirit begins the work of salvation combined with sanctification even when an infant is baptized.

Where do you find that in scripture?

Where do you find that in scripture?
1 Cor. 6:11 -- KJV "but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

1 Cor. 6:11 -- KJV "but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

Where do you find baptism of infants starting a process of salvation in this verse?

Where do you find baptism of infants starting a process of salvation in this verse?
I thought you were after "The Holy Spirit begins the work of salvation combined with sanctification."

We've been down the infant-baptizing road several times already. You and I disagree on that, and there seems to be no resolution possible.

I thought you were after "The Holy Spirit begins the work of salvation combined with sanctification."

That verse does not say that they are intertwined. It only says that God washes, santcifies and justifies us. All of which I agree with.

If you actually read my post where I asked this, it was in response to your post which read

"The Holy Spirit begins the work of salvation combined with sanctification even when an infant is baptized. "

Where do you find this in scripture?


We've been down the infant-baptizing road several times already. You and I disagree on that, and there seems to be no resolution possible.

Not if we don't take our doctrine straight from God's word.

Wondergirl,
You ARE RIGHT AGAIN.
Fred

Where do you find that in scripture?

I've got both Scripture and Tradition to rely on. It must be lonely when you only have yourself to rely on.

JoeT

Joe,
Very good point.
Fred

I've got both Scripture and Tradition to rely on. It must be lonely when you only have yourself to rely on.


Would be hard for you to defend your views if you could not post abuse about those who disagree?

I am quite happy relying solely upon God's Holy word. I don't think that the denominational traditions of man can in any way improve upon the word of God.

Poor little Tj3 is crying abuse again.
Why are you so thin skinned?
You're the only one here that claims that.
Just curious.
Peace and kindness to you anyway.
Fred

Poor little Tj3 is crying abuse again.
Why are you so thin skinned?
Your the only one here that claims that.


I am a bit disappointed that you think abuse is acceptable. In my worldview, acceptance of abuse against anyone seems contradictory to a profession of faith in Christ. That is why I take a stand when others are abused, whether I agree with them or not.

But you are welcome to believe as you wish.

Tj3,
I do not think that abuse is acceptable.
But in your case I find in curious that when someone tells a truth you don't like you call it abuse and it appears here that you are the only one who does that.
You have been crying abuse to you on several boards for several years; so often that it stands out like a sore thumb.
Perhaps we should get back to the topic and not worry about imagined abuse.
Fred

I am a bit disappointed that you think abuse is acceptable. In my worldview, acceptance of abuse against anyone seems contradictory to a profession of faith in Christ. That is why I take a stand when others are abused, whether I agree with them or not.

But you are welcome to believe as you wish.
No one is abusing you, Tom. All we are doing is disagreeing with you. We know from many other threads here and on other sites/boards that our chances of agreeing with you on certain issues is nil. Why we all do this merry dance time after time I'll never know. It certainly isn't for FrChuck's amusement. You, Tom, will never convince us, for instance, that infant baptism isn't commanded by God, nor will we convince you that it is. Actually, when Catholics and Protestants decide they agree with each other but not with you, that's rather major in my book. I'm not quite sure what it means, but I'll bet there's some depth to it.

Wondergirl,
Point well made and well said.
I have never intentionally abused Tom but he has accused me of doing so many times.
That get very old and tiresome quickly
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

Tj3,
I do not think that abuse is acceptable.
But in your case I find in curious that when someone tells a truth you don't like you call it abuse and it appears here that you are the only one who does that.
You have been crying abuse to you on several boards for several years; so often that it stands out like a sore thumb.
Perhaps we should get back to the topic and not worry about imagined abuse.
Fred

Fred,

Perhaps rather than make abusive and demeaning comments of your own about others, yes, you should get on topic.

No one is abusing you, Tom. All we are doing is disagreeing with you.

WG,

Disagreement does not involve demeaning comments about others. At least within the civilization and circles that I live in. It also is not in concert with scripture.

Maybe your circle of friends consider abuse normal. If so, I feel very sorry for you, but that is still no excuse. We have the Bible as our moral guide and should not be lowered to the standards of non-Christian society.

Personally, I don't care if you and a few other here who have difficulty tolerating disagreement don't like me - I am here to discuss the topic and cannot control whether others choose to dislike people because they disagree. I have been enjoying some great discussions over the past while while those few folk have been keeping themselves scarce)


You, Tom, will never convince us, for instance, that infant baptism isn't commanded by God, nor will we convince you that it is.

Again, that is not my concern. I am here to discuss what God's word says. You made a comment and I simply asked you for scriptural backup for that comment. If you are unable to find any scripture to validate it, that is not my problem.


Actually, when Catholics and Protestants decide they agree with each other but not with you, that's rather major in my book. I'm not quite sure what it means, but I'll bet there's some depth to it.

Again, that does not matter to me. I am interested in being in alignment with God's word, not anyone's denomination. And since I am neither Catholic nor Protestant, neither theological system carries undue influence on what I believe.

Now, do you wish to keep pointing fingers and making demeaning comments or discuss the issue at hand?

(Interesting how most users on here have friendly discussions. There is a small group here, and virtually every time members of that small group show up on a thread, it follows a pattern of abuse and closure.

On topic --

"Do you have to be baptized in water to be saved?"
No.

"Is it necesary for salvation?"
No.

On topic --

"Do you have to be baptized in water to be saved?"
No.

"Is it necesary for salvation?"
No.

Wow - finally - on topic.

And we agree. You never know what will happen if you can stay on respectful discussion of the topic. Who knows - maybe we would find other areas of agreement.

My answeres to those questions is...
Yes
And
Yes.
So it goes.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

My answeres to those questions is ...
Yes
and
Yes.
So it goes.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
I love you anyway. We agree more than we disagree.

My answeres to those questions is ...
Yes
and
Yes.
So it goes.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

Some choose to trust in water, I'll put my trust in the blood that Jesus shed on the cross.

Rev 1:5-6
To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever.
NKJV

You won't find a statement about water which says anything like that anywhere in scripture.

1 Cor 2:1-3
2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
NKJV

Scripture says Jesus has shown the way. It is HIS step that we follow. Just as Christ received the HOLY SPIRIT witness by John and heaven above, we too must be baptized in hope of salvation.

The Law of Faith is ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM.

Who has put their faith in something other then One Lord when they do not follow in baptism?

Baptism allows us to draw water out of the well of salvation, the well of righteousness.
It is written that Christ then can dwell within us (Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. )

In ONE Baptism we have put on Christ to stop the flesh from lust. (Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof. )

In ONE Baptism we have HIS Hand to purge us continuely and burn by fire
unquenchable.(Luke 3:17)


NOTED POINT**
ONE Baptism is in like figure to Jesus that it also saves us to keep us i HIS way.(1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ)



Righteousness is the breastplate of our salvation and our righteousness depends Christ within as He molds us. (Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? )

It is written that the law of sin in(filthy rags) will war against the LAW of Faith that is within the mind. It does this to try and capture you into being filthy rags under the law of sin. (Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members)

Baptism required for salvation? YES, the law of faith says it is.

Baptism by water and spirit? YES, as Christ did show us the way, HIS WAY

Baptized infants? No, confess faith in Christ Jesus is required. Scripture tells us infants shall be call holy from the womb

It still boils down to Tj3, wondergirl and some others(me included) believe water baptism is required AFTER one has already received Salvation.

The other group, sndbay, fred, and some others believe that water baptism helps one to get saved.

At least, that's the best I can make out from it.

Scripture says Jesus has shown the way. It is HIS step that we follow. Just as Christ received the HOLY SPIRIT witness by John and heaven above, we too must be baptized in hope of salvation.

Sndbay,

Remember yesterday, we were discussing the fact that everyone who is saved, whether OT saint or NT saint, had their sins atoned by the blood of Christ on the cross. There is no other way to be saved.

If baptism was essential for salvation, then are you saying that everyone of the OT saints is in hell?

Another question that I often ask of those who hold to the doctrine of baptismal regeneration is this - If a man who has been on alcohol and drugs, is homeless, and has reached the absolute pit in their existence remembers what they were taught as a child about the gospel, and as he is laying there in the ditch, cries out to God, acknowledges that they are a sinner and that it is only through Christ that their hope lies. Then asks God to forgive his sins and to receive Jesus as Saviour.
If that person dies a few minutes later without having reached a baptismal font, is he going to hell?

It still boils down to Tj3, wondergirl and some others(me included) believe water baptism is required AFTER one has already recieved Salvation.

The other group, sndbay, fred, and some others believe that water baptism helps one to get saved.

At least, that's the best I can make out from it.

That is exactly what they are saying! Think about it!. it takes another human to baptize a person... so not ONLY is the finished work of Christ NOT enough... they actually think another human being needs to be involved in their salvation. In my opinion not only is it biblically incorrect... it is insulting to the Lord Jesus Christ.

Great points, drilled over and over ( same points) though pages of name calling from both sides, often in snide comments.

So figure we can start attacking each other in another thread

This one closed.