I am curious as to what others Christians think of this subject. Some Christians believe Paul is teaching in predestination:

Ephesians: 1:3-5

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

I heard a Pastor once say that what Paul meant was that we were predestined before the foundation of the world to be HOLY and without blame when we stand before the Lord. But he didn't believe that the Lord Jesus predestinated us to be saved. I'm not sure that I really bought into that... what do you think Paul meant?

I am curious as to what others Christians think of this subject. Some Christians believe Paul is teaching in predestination:

Ephesians: 1:3-5

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

i heard a Pastor once say that what Paul meant was that we were predestined before the foundation of the world to be HOLY and without blame when we stand before the Lord. But he didn't believe that the Lord Jesus predestinated us to be saved. I'm not sure that i really bought into that...what do you think Paul meant?

Yes, the Catholic Church has always taught "predestination". Calvin and Luther disagree on how it is understood by the Church.

Yes, the Catholic Church has always taught "predestination". Calvin and Luther disagree on how it is understood by the Church.

Thanks for your response. I didn't realize that catholics taught it. So I know what John Calvin taught... I don't know what Martin Luther taught regarding predestination. I'm curious as to what the disagreement is, was? What is the catholic understanding and teaching?

Thanks for your response. I didn't realize that catholics taught it. So I know what John Calvin taught...i don't know what Martin Luther taught regarding predestination. I'm curious as to what the disagreement is, was? What is the catholic understanding and teaching?

This is a very difficult subject for me, so excuse me if I make a mistake. I'm sure other knowledgeable Catholics can help keep me in line.

As I understand the Catholic teaching, God is prescient. He knows everything. Therefore, God knows who is going to be in heaven and who isn't.

But we don't. Therefore, we have to exercise our free will if we want to wind up in heaven.

That's the gist of the Catholic teaching.

The difference with Calvin has to do with irresistible grace. The Church teaches that man has the God given freedom to cooperate with or resist grace.

Whereas, if I understand Calvin, he taught that God's grace was irresistible and thus, those who were predestined were chosen by God to get to heaven.

In one word, you could describe the Catholic teaching as God's foreknowing. God knows who the elect will be.

And Calvin's as Pre-Selection. God pre-selects the elect.

I don't remember Luther's theology on the matter off hand. But I think it is similar to Calvin's.

This is one of those questions where I do not fall into the usual camps. In past discussions on this topic, I have had Arminians accuse me of being hyper-Calvinist, I have had Calvinists accuse me of being hyper-Arminian, Protestants accuse me of being Catholic and Catholics accuse me of being Protestant - and sometimes all in the same thread. I figure that means that I must have struck a good middle ground :)

I won't try to go into detail in this single post because I don't have time, other than to say that I think that both the Arminian and Calvinist camps are both partly right and partly wrong. I think that they both miss one key factor. When we ask if we are predestined or not, it presumes that everything happens on a time-line which is how we as humans see it because we are trapped inside the constraints of space and time. But God isn't.

Both Arminianism and Calvinism as it pertains to salvation can be found and can be defended scripturally. But I believe both are showing only one dimension of God's plan for salvation. God both foreknows (which allows for our feewill), and God predestined us to be saved. These can b oth be true because God is outside of time. Both concepts work together because God see what will happen and see what has happened and has declared it outside of time.

Think of it this way - when you drive down the highway, you see the car imm3ediately in front of you and the front of the car immediately behind you. You see what is happening in your iommediate "timeframe". Both the traffic helicoptor 2000 feet in the air sees both what is in your past (which you were several minutes ago) and sees the problems several minutes ahead of you because he is not subject to the flow of traffic. So when he tells yolu that you are about to slow down dramatically, is it a prediction or is it foreknowledge? Well, we know that he knows because he can see ahead, but he is also telling you what is in your future journey, so you might see it as both.

This is only a somewhat faulty analogy to help us see what we can never experience while we are here are on earth. God faces no such limitation - He is omniscient - God can see perfectly our entire lives, our complete past, and our complete future. God is also omnipotent - He can declare what is to be. So how do these two factors work together with respect to our salvation? Is it God's foreknowledge, or is it God predestination? Both are true, both work together but in a way that we cannot fully comnprehend. We must accept Jesus as Saviour to be saved, and yet we cannot have faith unless the Holy Spirit gives us faith. One appears to require our full freewill, the other appears to be contrary to it, and yet both are true.

My conclusion? I believe that anyone who tells you that they know perfectly how these two concepts works is wrong. I believe that anyone who says that it is all one way or the other is wrong. I also believe that bother of these concepts are true and are Biblical, and that we struggle with these because of our inability to understand things from God's perspective.

Maybe not a completely satisfying answer for some, but one that I believe can be defended from scripture.

Lutherans believe that election is only positive, that God wants all to be saved. Calvin (different from Luther) maintained that election is irreversible; you can't fall away from being elect.

From rutgers.edu that says it better than I could --

The main problem is that the Lutheran confessional documents make assertions that appear to be in conflict. Furthermore, they do not try to resolve the conflict, because they believe that doing so would require going beyond what God has revealed to us.

The starting perspective is similar to Calvinism. Due to the fall, we are powerless to do anything related to salvation. It's not enough for God to offer us salvation. He has to work in us even to get to the point where we can listen to the offer. Just as Calvin, the Formula of Concord says that those who are saved are elected by God. God establishes all the means needed to redeem the elect. He doesn't just foresee their decision, but does what is needed to bring about their salvation. This is done primarily through preaching the Gospel and the sacraments. "In this his eternal counsel, purpose, and ordinance, God has not only prepared salvation in general, but he has also graciously considered and elected to salvation each and every individual among the elect who are to be saved through Christ, and also ordained that ... he wills by his grace, gifts, and effective working to bring them to salvation, and to help, further, strengthen and preserve them to this end."

God only foresees the fate of the rest. There is no negative election. Those who reject the Gospel are responsible for their own fate.

God wants all to be saved. The offer of the Gospel is seriously made to all.

Before justification, we do not have the ability to do anything towards our salvation. Justification is done entirely by God, through his election of us in Christ. However justification renews our will. At this point the possibility exists either to continue in faith or to reject it. That is, it is possible to be justified and then fall away.

God does foreknow who of those called will believe, who will persevere, and of those who fall away, who will return. In sum, God knows who will be saved and who will not. However he has not revealed this to us, and we are not free to speculate on it.

DeMaria,

Thanks for your post. You helped clarify for me.

TJ3,

Wow, I have never heard it put that way and I think I makes sense... kinda. I do NOT understand it. But that is interesting. I'm going to re read that again and take it all in. I may have more questions for you. In fact... you can COUNT on it.

Wondergirl,

Thanks for the info. But what do you personally believe?

wondergirl, Thanks for the info. But what do you personally believe?
What I posted.

Wondergirl,

Ok but it confuses me... it sounds like you lean more towards John Calvin. Maybe I didn't get enough sleep last night but put it in your own words. If you don't mind

Wondergirl,

Ok but it confuses me...it sounds like you lean more towards John Calvin. Maybe i didn't get enough sleep last night but put it in your own words. if you don't mind
I believe what I posted is very clear and very much agrees with what Tom posted.

Wondergirl,

Ok, well I don't think it is clear. I think it is confusing. I think TOM's post is confusing too.

Would you like a chart to organize it? How can I make it clear to you?

Tell me in your own words... I think this is a confusing subject. Ok... how about this, I get that you agree with John Calvin for the most part.. can you explain what you don't agree with him about? I'm really not slow... ok, maybe I am..?. If you can make a chart... feel free to... ;)

Would you like a chart to organize it? How can I make it clear to you?

Wondergirl - she's just trying to understand what your position is... you did already state what you believed but perhaps you could describe it in another way; that's what I believe she's asking. I think you're being a little hard on her.

I am curious as to what others Christians think of this subject. Some Christians believe Paul is teaching in predestination:

Ephesians: 1:3-5

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

i heard a Pastor once say that what Paul meant was that we were predestined before the foundation of the world to be HOLY and without blame when we stand before the Lord. But he didn't believe that the Lord Jesus predestinated us to be saved. I'm not sure that i really bought into that...what do you think Paul meant?

classyT - this is one of those subjects that you cannot avoid when you read the bible because as you pointed out in Ephesians, Paul says that God did predestine us for adoption as his children. I am going to try to get some thoughts going on this post over the weekend.

Wondergirl - she's just trying to understand what your position is...you did already state what you believed but perhaps you could describe it in another way; that's what I believe she's asking. I think you're being a little hard on her.
I'll wait until Tom comes back to the board, and the two of us can work together to explain.

Wondergirl - she's just trying to understand what your position is...you did already state what you believed but perhaps you could describe it in another way; that's what I believe she's asking. I think you're being a little hard on her.
How is creating a chart being hard on her? I think in charts, with precise headings for columns and rows. If anything, I was bending over backwards to be helpful.

Jakester,

I'd appreciate any of your thoughts.

OK wondergirl... if you get a chance perhaps you and Tom can explain it better to me. This is hard for be to wrap my mind around. Go slow though..

How is creating a chart being hard on her? I think in charts, with precise headings for columns and rows. If anything, I was bending over backwards to be helpful.

Hey wondergirl - no, creating a chart isn't being hard on her; I'm saying that asking if she needed it charted out for her was a little harsh. I think you were dissing her, weren't you? Maybe I had you wrong.

hey wondergirl - no, creating a chart isn't being hard on her; I'm saying that asking if she needed it charted out for her was a little harsh. I think you were dissing her, weren't you? Maybe I had you wrong.
I didn't say, "Do you need a chart." I said, "Would you like a chart to organize it? How can I make it clear to you?"

You had me very wrong.

I see it mostly as Tj3 said
God is outside of time and knows all things.
We have free will but God already knew every day of our life, numbered every hair on our head, etc...
I sort of think of it as God wrote and produced the play and we could ad lib but he already knew when and where we would exercise our free will.
Sort of like watching a movie over again you already know exactly what is going to happen.

The Bible does say
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will. (Ephe 1:11)

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. (Romans 8:29).

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (Romans 8:30).


The Best Verses In The Bible | GraceThruFaith (http://gracethrufaith.com/selah/spiritual-life/the-best-verses-in-the-bible/)

ok wondergirl...if you get a chance perhaps you and Tom can explain it better to me. This is hard for be to wrap my mind around. Go slow though..

Hi Classy,

I know that it is a topic that can be fairly hard to understand at the best of times, so I don't mind taking another shot at trying to clarify it.

There are two options that we normally hear about as both being part of the picture.

Arminiansim: Assumes that our decision comes first, and that God foreknows who will accept Jesus as Saviour. God does not predestine us to be saved.

Calvinism: Assumes that we have no decision and that the whole decision was God's who predestined us before creation to be saved. We have no choice to reject salvation and no choice to be saved. This theological system assumes that God's decision came first, and we became saved second.

So both systems depend upon a timeline.

What I am saying is that both theological system are missing a key attribute of God - He is outside of space and time. If you draw a line from left to right on a piece of paper, that is the timeline that I refer to. To the left, the world is created. To the right is the final judgment. Everyone who ever lived and who ever will live is born and will die somewhere on that timeline. In this diagram, God is above the timeline looking at it from the side. Thus he sees the creation of the world, our birth, our decision for Christ and the final judgment simultaneously. Thus God foreknew because He can see our decision for Christ, and yet He predestined according to scripture. How do these two concepts work together? I don't think that we can fully comprehend it because we cannot understand what it means to be outside of time.

When discussing this, I like this verse:


Rom 8:28-30
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
NKJV

Does that help?

Tj3,

OK for me.. that was much clearer.THANK YOU! I agree but never heard it taught that way. I'm copying it for my bible study.. hope you don't mind.

I guess I was always taught... Whosoever will may come but once you DO you learn you were predestined before the foundation of the World. That doesn't make any sense to me either.

But I appreciate your clarifying the best you can. I'm going to spend some time studying it. I know people give you a hard time on here but I think you are a really smart guy. PLUS I respect your biblical knowledge and your ability to to break it down in simple terms.. although I got to tell you understanding God being out of space and time is STILL hard to grasp. But I believe it just the same!

A simple answer.

Think about who Paul was writing to. He was addressing Christians, saved people, NOT those outside of the Kingdom. In fact, most of the Bible is addressed to believers.

When you understand that, then it becomes clear that God has predestined that ALL saved people be conformed to the image of Christ. That is, He intends for us to become like our Elder Brother, Jesus Christ.

Hope this is helpful.

Gal,

That is what I heard a Pastor say recently. For me it was like he was saying we were predestined AFTER we became saved to be conformed to the image of Christ. That is a given!! But what about these verses in the Gospel of John, where Jesus is talking...

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me...

No man can come to me except the Father which hath sent me draw him...

... no man can come unto me except it were given unto him of my Father

I agree with you that we need to understand who is writing and who it is written to... but these verses were NOT directly written to the church. Jesus was talking to the Jews before there was any knowledge of the church... Do you think they are relevant and tie into what the Apostle Paul said about predestination?

P.S. thanks for keeping it simple.

classyT - the tension that exists in the topic of predestination is essentially in the following two questions:

1) does God predestine believers according to his foreknowledge of their choices? Because God knows what choices people will make, since he is outside of time and space and knows the future, he knows who will choose to follow him. Based upon his divine foreknowledge of man's choices, he predestines man for salvation based upon his knowledge of the future.

2) Does God choose those whom he will grant eternal life to irrespective of his divine foreknowledge? In other words, the fact that God is outside of time and space has no bearing on predestination because he is the one choosing man for eternal life, not man choosing eternal life.

Books have been written which attempt to outline where the logic breaks down in each of these questions so there's no way Tj3 or me or Galveston can quickly summarize what the answer is in a few short paragraphs (sorry Galveston but it's really not so simple... no disrespect). The reason being is that if you start to follow the logic of either line of questioning above, you run into snags that need to be contemplated.

Honestly, Tess, I don't know if I would even feel comfortable going into detail about it but if you have particular questions, perhaps we can talk through some. I subscribe to something called Divine Determinism which espouses both individual free will and divine sovereignty as compatible. I'm really not one to recommend books to people but I found this book by Jack Crabtree to be a very interesting read:

The Most Real Being: A Biblical and Philosophical Defense of Divine Determinism

I must make a disclaimer, though. This book is not an easy read but reading it is well worth the effort as it deals with some profound issues relating to our choices and God's control over his creation, etc.

Regards.

classyT,
I believe that due to the infinite and perfect love and mercy of God all souls are predestined to heaven, but it is up to each one of use to achieve that destiny through doing what the New Testament tells us to do.
That is why the bible tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
Yes, God already knows how judgment day will say who is going to go where, but we do not.
Only God KNOWS for SURE who is going to go to heaven.
Some folks THINK they know but they may be surprised on that day.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

classyT,
I believe that due to the infinite and perfect love and mercy of God all souls are predestined to heaven, but it is up to each one of use to achieve that destiny through doing what the New Testament tells us to do.
That is why the bible tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
Yes, God already knows how judgment day will say who is going to go where, but we do not.
Only God KNOWS for SURE who is going to go to heaven.
Some folks THINK they know but they may be surprised on that day.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Right, Fred, we cannot judge the salvation of others, unless their testimony is clear that they have rejected Jesus as Savior. We can know ourselves if we are saved because scripture says that we can have assurance of salvation.

Fred,

You bring up GREAT points... What do you think the Lord means to work out our faith in fear and trembling? I'd like everyone's thoughts on that too.

classyT - the tension that exists in the topic of predestination is essentially in the following two questions:

1) does God predestine believers according to his foreknowledge of their choices? Because God knows what choices people will make, since he is outside of time and space and knows the future, he knows who will choose to follow him. Based upon his divine foreknowledge of man's choices, he predestines man for salvation based upon his knowledge of the future.

2) Does God choose those whom he will grant eternal life to irrespective of his divine foreknowledge? In other words, the fact that God is outside of time and space has no bearing on predestination because he is the one choosing man for eternal life, not man choosing eternal life.

Books have been written which attempt to outline where the logic breaks down in each of these questions so there's no way Tj3 or me or Galveston can quickly summarize what the answer is in a few short paragraphs (sorry Galveston but it's really not so simple...no disrespect). The reason being is that if you start to follow the logic of either line of questioning above, you run into snags that need to be contemplated.

Honestly, Tess, I don't know if I would even feel comfortable going into detail about it but if you have particular questions, perhaps we can talk through some. I subscribe to something called Divine Determinism which espouses both individual free will and divine sovereignty as compatible. I'm really not one to recommend books to people but I found this book by Jack Crabtree to be a very interesting read:

The Most Real Being: A Biblical and Philosophical Defense of Divine Determinism

I must make a disclaimer, though. This book is not an easy read but reading it is well worth the effort as it deals with some profound issues relating to our choices and God's control over his creation, etc.

Regards.

Thanks for the info. I know this is a sensitive topic and frankly Calvinism is NOT the Gospel.. the gospel is Whoesoever will may come. I am going to study this out until I am clear in my mind and I will see if I can locate the book you suggested.

You and Tom blow me away with your biblical knowledge are your ability to convey what you know. Tackling something like this and making someone like ME understand it, isn't easy. I believe that divine will and individual free will is compatible because the Bible teaches both. Will I ever understand it?. I don't know. But I wanted a better grasp of understanding... so I'm going to roll up my sleeves and tackle it best I can.

Fred,

You bring up GREAT points...What do you think the Lord means to work out our faith in fear and trembling? I'd like everyones thoughts on that too.
It's wasn't the Lord who said that, but St. Paul who wrote it to the church at Philippi, Philippians 2:12-13, "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

Paul tells the church members that, while he is absent, to work out their own salvation in trembling and fear (v12), and clearly tells them in v13 just how they will accomplish that. It is God who works in you (and us) both to will and do [Greek, energeo]. Paul is urging the Philippians, even as they have listened to and obeyed his teaching of the word when he was with them, now that he is away from them, they should continue to read and be obedient to the word. They are on their own and must manage without Paul's leadership, but God will be there with them in their hearts "to will and to do." God is the active one within us; he is working in us so that we move forward with good works toward others.

The Apostle Paul wrote it... but ultimately it is God's thoughts and words.

But why with fear and trembling? I guess my point is that some people teach we can lose our salvation. I personally don't think so and I believe the word is pretty clear on the security of our salvation.

Gal,

That is what i heard a Pastor say recently. For me it was like he was saying we were predestined AFTER we became saved to be conformed to the image of Christ. That is a given!!!!! But what about these verses in the Gospel of John, where Jesus is talking ...

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me...

No man can come to me except the Father which hath sent me draw him...

...no man can come unto me except it were given unto him of my Father

I agree with you that we need to understand who is writing and who it is written to....but these verses were NOT directly written to the church. Jesus was talking to the Jews before there was any knowledge of the church.....Do you think they are relevant and tie into what the Apostle Paul said about predestination?

P.S. thanks for keeping it simple.

Jesus was telling Jewish people that The Father and The Son are not the same person, and that it is the Father that gives faith to hearers that they CAN accept the Son.

Companion verses are those saying that Jesus is the ONLY way to the Father, thus showing the perfect harmony between Father and Son. You can't have one without the other!

But why with fear and trembling?
You wouldn't be a bit fearful if your trusted leader left your church, and you and your fellow members were left to your own devices? When our dear minister left our congregation to retire to Texas, we were scared to death and trembled at the thought of finding someone else who would be able to shepherd us as well as he had. Our only comfort, like that of the Philippians, was that God was in charge.

But why with fear and trembling? I guess my point is that some people teach we can lose our salvation. I personally don't think so and I believe the word is pretty clear on the security of our salvation.



Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

You wouldn't be a bit fearful if your trusted leader left your church, and you and your fellow members were left to your own devices? When our dear minister left our congregation to retire to Texas, we were scared to death and trembled at the thought of finding someone else who would be able to shepherd us as well as he had. Our only comfort, like that of the Philippians, was that God was in charge.

I am not quite sure what you are talking about here. Could you please clarify? Who left the church and what does that have to do with salvation?

I am not quite sure what you are talking about here. Could you please clarify? Who left the church and what does that have to do with salvation?
Post #32.

Post #32.

I cannot see that Paul's absence would impact how they work out their salvation. And why would Paul tell them to be in fear and trembling if he was gone? Wouldn't it be more likely that he would tell them to keep their eyes on the Lord if he had any concern about their stability in his absence? That would be more consistent with his other writings.

I cannot see that Paul's absence would impact how they work out their salvation. And why would Paul tell them to be in fear and trembling if he was gone? Wouldn't it be more likely that he would tell them to keep their eyes on the Lord if he had any concern about their stability in his absence? That would be more consistent with his other writings.
Post #35.

The Apostle Paul wrote it.... but ultimately it is God's thoughts and words.

But why with fear and trembling? I guess my point is that some people teach we can lose our salvation. I personally don't think so and I believe the word is pretty clear on the security of our salvation.
Looking at it in context, I think that it is simply an attempt on Paul's part to make them more aware that their salvation comes from God, and they shold always be in awe of Him and have appropriate reverence for Him. When the word "for" is used in a context like this passage, it tells us that Paul is giving his rationale or conclusion immediately afterward, and in this case he says that salvation is the result of God working in us.

Phil 2:12-13
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
NKJV

This is consistent with Paul's use if the phrase in telling bondservants how to serve their human master:

Eph 6:5-9
5 Bondservants, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in sincerity of heart, as to Christ; 6 not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as bondservants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, 7 with good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men, 8 knowing that whatever good anyone does, he will receive the same from the Lord, whether he is a slave or free. 9 And you, masters, do the same things to them, giving up threatening, knowing that your own Master also is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him.
NKJV

Since we are to be bondservants to Christ, we should also, in fact even more so view Him with fear and trembling when we reflect upon who He is, and His awe and majesty.

Looking at it in context, I think that it is simply an effect on Paul's part to make them more aware that their salvation comes from God
Yes, like I said...

Yes, like I said....

Like you said... what? Please complete your thought. You were talking about fear of a pastor leaving the church. I was talking about their attitude towards God.

"Work out your own salvation" does not mean work for salvation. It means to take what God has given us to its logical conclusion, to meet responsibilities and to carry them out. God's grace does not end once we are justified. He gives us the power to accomplish what His pleasure is for us and equips us with the skills and tools to accomplish His will.

"Fear and trembling" means we will have a deep respect for our God as well as concern for the uncertainties that we will experience as we live life and mature spiritually, i.e. grow in grace.

Like you said.... what? Please complete your thought. You were talking about fear of a pastor leaving the church. I was talking about their attitude towards God.
pastor = Paul
church = Philippi

"Work out your own salvation" does not mean work for salvation. It means to take what God has given us to its logical conclusion, to meet responsibilities and to carry them out. God's grace does not end once we are justified. He gives us the power to accomplish what His pleasure is for us and equips us with the skills and tools to accomplish His will.

"Fear and trembling" means we will have a deep respect for our God as well as concern for the uncertainties that we will experience as we live life and mature spiritually, i.e., grow in grace.

Okay. But this is not the same as what you said before about Paul leaving the church. Do you see some relationship between the two things? If so, please explain, because you lost me.

Okay. But this is not the same as what you said before about Paul leaving the church. Do you see some relationship between the two things? If so, please explain, because you lost me.
Hmmmmmmm...

Paul was leaving the church at Philippi. They were going to be on their own. Thus, he wrote to them to encourage them.

"Work out your own salvation" = God will give you the power to accomplish what His pleasure is for you and will equip you with the skills and tools to accomplish His will. The church members will do this with "fear and trembling," with a deep respect for God as well as concern for the uncertainties that they will experience in life as they mature spiritually, i.e. grow in grace.

Wondergirl,

Naahh, I don't think I would be fearful if my Pastor left.. . sad, disappointed but not fearful and trembling.

Tj3,
I totally agree with you ( shocking isn't it? ;) ) I believe the fear Paul is referring to is more about reverence, respect, AWE. But I knew a woman that was teaching a class at a local church and she kept throwing that verse up as if it meant we could lose our salvation. I never confronted her but all I could think of was WOW, I bet Noah was so glad he was put INTO the ARK and not left to hang onto it. I was place IN Christ, Noah was placed IN the ark and last time I read my bible no one could open the door until it was time.. not even NOAH.

Hmmmmmmm.............

Paul was leaving the church at Philippi. They were going to be on their own. Thus, he wrote to them to encourage them.

"Work out your own salvation" = God will give you the power to accomplish what His pleasure is for you and will equip you with the skills and tools to accomplish His will. The church members will do this with "fear and trembling," with a deep respect for God as well as concern for the uncertainties that they will experience in life as they mature spiritually, i.e., grow in grace.

I personally think that connecting those two things is a stretch.

Wondergirl,
Naahh, I don't think I would be fearful if my Pastor left.. . sad, disappointed but not fearful and trembling.

Agreed. I think to suggest that this would leave them in fear and trembling or that paul would encourage them to be is hard to imagine.


Tj3,
I totally agree with you ( shocking isn't it? ;) ) I believe the fear Paul is referring to is more about reverence, respect, AWE. But I knew a woman that was teaching a class at a local church and she kept throwing that verse up as if it meant we could lose our salvation. I never confronted her but all I could think of was WOW, I bet Noah was so glad he was put INTO the ARK and not left to hang onto it. I was place IN Christ, Noah was placed IN the ark and last time I read my bible no one could open the door until it was time.. not even NOAH.

We may agree on this, but I am not sure if you will agree with what I am about to say. I agree that we cannot lose our salvation (i.e. inadvertently become unsaved), but scripture is clear that we can choose to intentionally turn away from our salvation, for example:

Heb 6:4-7
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
NKJV

Jesus was telling Jewish people that The Father and The Son are not the same person, and that it is the Father that gives faith to hearers that they CAN accept the Son.

Companion verses are those saying that Jesus is the ONLY way to the Father, thus showing the perfect harmony between Father and Son. You can't have one without the other!

Gal,

I don't completely disagree that he was trying to show the Jewish people who he was. But I don't know... I think he was saying MORE than that. He says it several times in the same chapter... jut my thoughts.

Agreed. I think to suggest that this would leave them in fear and trembling or that paul would encourage them to be is hard to imagine.
You obviously do not understand the meanings of "fear" and "trembling" in this context, nor did I ever say that Paul "encouraged" that.

You obviously do not understand the meanings of "fear" and "trembling" in this context.

WG,

If you wish to put forward additional points and validation as to why you believe your interpretation is the right one, you are welcome to do so, and I would certainly consider such input. But to shut down the discussion by simply proclaiming that anyone who disagrees with you does not understand the meaning of the phrase is not compelling. It leaves us with nowhere to go in this discussion because you have simply proclaimed your position to be right.

WG,

If you wish to put forward additional points and validation as to why you believe your interpretation is the right one, you are welcome to do so, and I would certainly consider such input. But to shutdown the discussion by simply proclaiming that anyone who disagrees with you does not understand the meaning of the phrase is not compelling.
Tom, you and I actually agree regarding these verses. I do not understand why you cannot acknowledge that fact.

WG: "Work out your own salvation"... means to take what God has given us to its logical conclusion, to meet responsibilities and to carry them out. God's grace does not end once we are justified. He gives us the power to accomplish what His pleasure is for us and equips us with the skills and tools to accomplish His will.
TOM: Looking at it in context, I think that it is simply an attempt on Paul's part to make them more aware that their salvation comes from God, and they shold always be in awe of Him and have appropriate reverence for Him.


WG: "Fear and trembling" means we will have a deep respect for our God as well as concern for the uncertainties that we will experience as we live life and mature spiritually, i.e. grow in grace.
TOM: Since we are to be bondservants to Christ, we should also, in fact even more so view Him with fear and trembling when we reflect upon who He is, and His awe and majesty.

Tom, you and I actually agree regarding these verses. I do not understand why you cannot acknowledge that fact.

I would love it if that were the case, but I don't think that it is. You have already told me that I am wrong because I don' agree with your understanding, so how could we be in agreement?

After you explained how you were connecting the two thoughts, I went back and read the book, starting at 1:1 to see how it would read as a letter, and to see if that might gift in the context if I heard it read out as a letter, in order to give your argument a fair hearing. After having done so, I had to go back and read it again to see if I could find a way to link things the way that you have, and that is when I came back and said that I see it as a stretch. If it were all part of a connected thought, it should not be so hard to find a way to link them.

Agreed. I think to suggest that this would leave them in fear and trembling or that paul would encourage them to be is hard to imagine.

You obviously do not understand the meanings of "fear" and "trembling" in this context, nor did I ever say that Paul "encouraged" that.

I should have said, "For some reason, you are accusing me of not understanding the meanings of those words, yet we agree on what those verses mean."

See Post #55.

Tom, I feel WG is talking about the sense of weakness that can come of the unknown, this weakness can produces the fear and results in trembling. We are to go forward and work that out in faith of God's presence.


1 Cr 2:2-3 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

Tom, I feel WG is talking about the sense of weakness that can come of the unknown, this weakness can produces the fear and results in trembling. We are to go forward and work that out in faith of God's presence.
You are correct. WG: "Fear and trembling" means we will have a deep respect for our God as well as concern for the uncertainties that we will experience as we live life and mature spiritually, i.e. grow in grace.

WG: "Work out your own salvation"... means to take what God has given us to its logical conclusion, to meet responsibilities and to carry them out. God's grace does not end once we are justified. He gives us the power to accomplish what His pleasure is for us and equips us with the skills and tools to accomplish His will.
TOM: Looking at it in context, I think that it is simply an attempt on Paul's part to make them more aware that their salvation comes from God, and they shold always be in awe of Him and have appropriate reverence for Him.

Okay.


WG: "Fear and trembling" means we will have a deep respect for our God as well as concern for the uncertainties that we will experience as we live life and mature spiritually, i.e. grow in grace.

Okay up to the word "concern". Though we do have concern for uncertainties, if we are in the place that god would have us to be, we would have no concern for the uncertainties of life, because we would completely rest in Him, knowing that He has it all under control.

Luke 12:27-30
28 If then God so clothes the grass, which today is in the field and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, how much more will He clothe you, O you of little faith? 29 And do not seek what you should eat or what you should drink, nor have an anxious mind. 30 For all these things the nations of the world seek after, and your Father knows that you need these things.
NKJV

The context of "fear and trembling" as it relates to the bondservant to his master refers to the attitude and respect that he has for the master.

Eph 6:5-6
5 Bondservants, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in sincerity of heart, as to Christ;
NKJV

I agree that in this context it means more.
God wants us to realize that he is serious and worthy and in all our righteousness and trying to work things out to conclusions that if we do not do so in a way pleasing to him then our fear and trambling awe is often not much more than our human reasoning. God wants something deeper. David repented from the heart and all his efforts of trying to achieve spirituality from logic would have been vain on his own part.

Okay up to the word "concern". Though we do have concern for uncertainties, if we are in the place that god would have us to be, we would have no concern for the uncertainties of life, because we would completely rest in Him, knowing that He has it all under control.
But how many of us reach that state of no concern, that we rest totally in God's love and care? We as humans living in this world will always have a certain amount of concern, sometimes less, but sometimes more.

But how many of us reach that state of no concern, that we rest totally in God's love and care? We as humans living in this world will always have a certain amount of concern, sometimes less, but sometimes more.

Agreed that we will have concern, but that is not what God wants of us, and indeed not what Paul under inspiration of God would want of the church in Philippi. Therefore I would not expect that Paul would be telling them that that is how they should be responding.

Also, as has been pointed out by myself and others, a pastor leaving would not be expected to cause a sense of fear and trembling. Paul's ministry was to build up the church, and build up leaders. The church at Philippi by this point was around for a decade or more, and thus would have some other leaders in place. Paul's absence would therefore not be a disaster.

I agree that in this context it means more.
God wants us to realize that he is serious and worthy and in all our righteousness and trying to work things out to conclusions that if we do not do so in a way pleasing to him then our fear and trambling awe is often not much more than our human reasoning. God wants something deeper. David repented from the heart and all his efforts of trying to achieve spirituality from logic would have been vain on his own part.

Yes the desire to serve God and do HIS will is the important step in fear. Holding the wisdom and knowledge that allows us to be one in Christ. Be holy as He is holy.

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction

Agreed that we will have concern, but that is not what God wants of us, and indeed Paul under inspiration of God would want of the church in Philippi. Therefore I would not expect that Paul would be telling them that that is how they should be responding.

Also, as has been pointed out by myself and others, a pastor leaving would not be expected to cause a sense of fear and trembling. Paul's ministry was to build up the church, and build up leaders. The church at Philippi by this point was around for a decade or more, and thus would have some other leaders in place. Paul's absence would therefore not be a disaster.
"Fear and trembling" is not shaking-in-their-boots scaredness with accompanying wailing and gnashing of teeth. As I said, "fear and trembling" means we have a deep respect (awe) for our God as well as concern for the uncertainties that we will experience as we live life and mature spiritually, i.e. grow in grace.

The "concern" I am talking about is not head-pounding worry and sleepless nights, but is honest evaluation of a situation to which the tools God has given us will be applied so that we can grow in grace.

"Fear and trembling" is not shaking-in-their-boots scaredness with accompanying wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Actually, it is. The words in Greek are:

Fear - phobos - means "alarm or fright"
Trembling - tromos - means "trembling" or "quaking with fear"

Actually, it is. The words in Greek are:

Fear - phobos - means "alarm or fright"
Trembling - tromos - means "trembling" or "quaking with fear"
And how does that equate with what you said earlier: "we should also, in fact even moreso view Him with fear and trembling when we reflect upon who He is, and His awe and majesty" and how is that different from what I said: "fear and trembling" means we have a deep respect (awe) for our God."

And how does that equate with what you said earlier: "we should also, in fact even moreso view Him with fear and trembling when we reflect upon who He is, and His awe and majesty" and how is that different from what I said: ""fear and trembling" means we have a deep respect (awe) for our God."

Look at the description of Jesus in His glory in Revelation chapter 1:

Rev 1:12-17
12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.
NKJV

And look at John's reaction to this vision:

Rev 1:17-19
17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
NKJV

Notice that though John was with Him as a man for years, he was so in fear at the sight of Him in His glory that he was as a dead man. We need to be always aware of who it is that we are dealing with. Yes, Jesus can be as a brother to us, but never forget that He is also the one true Almighty. Omnipotent God of the universe who created heaven and earth.

How do you reconcile what fear and trembling mean with your interpretation?

Look at the description of Jesus in His glory in Revelation chapter 1:

Rev 1:12-17
12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.
NKJV

And look at John's reaction to this vision:

Rev 1:17-19
17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
NKJV

Notice that though John was with Him as a man for years, he was so in fear at the sight of Him in His glory that he was as a dead man. We need to be always aware of who it is that we are dealing with. Yes, Jesus can be as a brother to us, but never forget that He is also the one true Almighty. Omnipotent God of the universe who created heaven and earth.

How do you reconcile what fear and trembling mean with your interpretation?
What?? Huh?? Please answer my question, especially the underlined part --


And how does that equate with what you said earlier: "we should also, in fact even moreso view Him with fear and trembling when we reflect upon who He is, and His awe and majesty" and how is that different from what I said: ""fear and trembling" means we have a deep respect (awe) for our God."

What??? Huh??? Please answer my question, especially the underlined part --

Post #68.

Let me be the first to say that Tj3 and WG agree, and have used almost the same words in their agreement:

Tj3: "we should also, in fact even moreso view Him with fear and trembling when we reflect upon who He is, and His awe and majesty"
WG: "fear and trembling" means we have a deep respect (awe) for our God"

Let me be the first to say that Tj3 and WG agree, and have used almost the exact same words in their agreement:

Tj3: "we should also, in fact even moreso view Him with fear and trembling when we reflect upon who He is, and His awe and majesty"
WG: "fear and trembling" means we have a deep respect (awe) for our God"

We agree if you completely ignore the areas where we disagree, which was what "fear and trembling" means in the context of this specific passage.

I note that although I provided a detailed answer of your question, you did not answer mine:

How do you reconcile what fear and trembling mean with your interpretation?

We agree if you completely ignore the areas where we disagree, which was what "fear and trembling" means in the context of this specific passage.

I note that although I provided a detailed answer of your question, you did not answer mine:

How do you reconcile what fear and trembling mean with your interpretation?
WE AGREE --

WG: "Work out your own salvation"... means to take what God has given us to its logical conclusion, to meet responsibilities and to carry them out. God's grace does not end once we are justified. He gives us the power to accomplish what His pleasure is for us and equips us with the skills and tools to accomplish His will.
TOM: Looking at it in context, I think that it is simply an attempt on Paul's part to make them more aware that their salvation comes from God, and they shold always be in awe of Him and have appropriate reverence for Him.


WG: "Fear and trembling" means we will have a deep respect for our God as well as concern for the uncertainties that we will experience as we live life and mature spiritually, i.e. grow in grace.
TOM: Since we are to be bondservants to Christ, we should also, in fact even more so view Him with fear and trembling when we reflect upon who He is, and His awe and majesty.

WE AGREE --

No, we don't.


WG: "Fear and trembling" means we will have a deep respect for our God as well as concern for the uncertainties that we will experience as we live life and mature spiritually, i.e. grow in grace.


This is a quote from your post #54, and I responded in post #55.

No, I do not agree with this statement. Do you want to go around in circles and repeat everything that we just said again, or will you deal with the question that I asked and move forward?

Agreed. I think to suggest that this would leave them in fear and trembling or that paul would encourage them to be is hard to imagine.



We may agree on this, but I am not sure if you will agree with what I am about to say. I agree that we cannot lose our salvation (i.e. inadvertently become unsaved), but scripture is clear that we can choose to intentionally turn away from our salvation, for example:

Heb 6:4-7
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
NKJV

oooh Tj3,

We DO disagree. I believe these Jewish people Paul is writing to were NEVER saved. They tasted... I taste things when I am cooking for my family but if that is all I did take a taste or two, it wouldn't give me nutritional value in other words.. couldn't LIVE on it. The Lord I believe expects us to guzzle the gospel of grace.. they were tasting it to see if they liked it. See if it suited them but they didn't want to give up the Law, the sacrifices. They were partakers of the Holy Spirit... they were NOT indwelt. Indeed the Holy Spirit did enlighten them but they were giving up the truth for the law.

In scripture we are given a few examples of what I think Paul was addressing. Judas is one, Saul was another. Both professed, both were enlightened, both rejected they didn't really believe.

Our churches are FULL of them IF you are saved and I mean REALLY saved, you cannot lose your salvation I think the scriptures are pretty clear as long as we keep them in context, understand who is writing, who it is written to... why it is written. These are my thoughts... I could be wrong but I don't think I am. Not everyone that owns the name of Christ KNOWS him.

you cannot lose your salvation
You always have free will in this life and can always change your mind to say "No thanks, God."

WG,

So then the Holy Spirit who indwells us just pops out. My Bible says I have been SEALED with him. IF I have to keep my salvation, in fact if I have anything at all to do with it other than accept it as a free gift.. I will screw it up. I can't keep my salvation. Salvation is of the LORD not Tess. It scares me to death to think that I could do something to mess it up.. trust me I would.. I KNOW me.

WG,

so then the Holy Spirit who indwells us just pops out. My Bible says I have been SEALED with him. IF i have to keep my salvation, in fact if I have anything at all to do with it other than accept it as a free gift..i will screw it up. I can't keep my salvation. Salvation is of the LORD not Tess. It scares me to death to think that I could do something to mess it up..trust me I would..i KNOW me.
Like I said, we can always say no. Are you planning to?

I don't think someone who is saved CAN say no. I think I can sin, I think I can act pretty ugly, I think I can even make people that know me question my salvation... but I can't say no I don't believe in the finished work of Jesus.

Paul was addressing Jews who were steeped in the law, heard the truth and tasted it a bit, considered it, liked it, saw the power but decided... naah I'm going back to the law and all that it entailed.

I don't think someone who is saved CAN say no. I think i can sin, I think I can act pretty ugly, i think I can even make people that know me question my salvation....but I can't say no I don't believe in the finished work of Jesus.
Of course someone can! I know several who have gone from being Paul-types to being Saul-types.

Well, if the people you speak of were SAVED and only the Lord knows for sure, Then I believe they are STILL saved. I believe the Lord when he says "i will never leave you or forsake you". You say... but you can leave him and I say back.. and he said NEVER... NEVER means that. He isn't going to leave me even if I wonder off like a stupid sheep. He doesn't call us sheep for nothing.. they are STUPID.

Well, if the people you speak of were SAVED and only the Lord knows for sure, Then I believe they are STILL saved. I believe the Lord when he says "i will never leave you or forsake you". You say ...but you can leave him and I say back..and he said NEVER....NEVER means that. He isn't going to leave me even if i wonder off like a stupid sheep. He doesn't call us sheep for nothing..they are STUPID.
Two of them came into money, inheritances, and are knocking themselves out now to spend and live high off the hog. They have no use for church or for God. Another one has gotten a lot of tough situations in his life and blames God for them, has renounced his church membership and wants nothing to do with God. No, God hasn't left them, but they want nothing to do with God.

oooh Tj3,

We DO disagree. I believe these Jewish people Paul is writing to were NEVER saved. They tasted... I taste things when I am cooking for my family but if that is all i did take a taste or two, it wouldn't give me nutritional value in other words.. couldn't LIVE on it. The Lord I believe expects us to guzzle the gospel of grace..they were tasting it to see if they liked it. See if it suited them but they didn't want to give up the Law, the sacrifices. They were partakers of the Holy Spirit...they were NOT indwelt. Indeed the Holy Spirit did enlighten them but they were giving up the truth for the law.

You referred to the "tasted" but let's look at this in more detail:

Heb 6:4-7
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
NKJV

What are the attributes of those spoken of here?

1) There were once enlightened. In the context, what were they enlightened to if not the gospel?

2) They tasted the heavenly gift, the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come. I am not sure how you do this without taking it in.

3) They were partakers of the Holy Spirit. The same term used to describe those who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in 2 Peter 1:4

4) They were once renewed to repentance. How can this happen to an unsaved person?

5) They fall away - from what if they were not saved?

6) If they were able to return to repentance (how is that possible if they never repented in the first place>) they would crucify Christ again (if unsaved when did the crucifixion of Christ first apply to them?

Tom,


Hmmm. Well I do not write as well as you, I'm not as smart as you and I'm not as logical as you but... I will attempt to explain it.

The writer of Hebrews is writing to the Jews. Some of these Jews had a really hard time giving up the Law. They were prone to hang on to Judaism. It is obvious they did not understand Paul's doctrine of Grace. Sure they could accept the Lord Jesus as the Messiah but Paul wanted them to understand that He had died for the sins of the world. I think you have to understand that before you can understand Hebrews.

I will go down your list and try to give you answers as I see them in the word. But I am tired now and I want to do a good job so I may do more tomorrow when I am fresh and can think clearer.

I will say this though, you most certainly can be enlightened and have an emotional experience without really being a believer. The story that comes to my mind off hand is King Nebuchandezzar. This guy throws the 3 Hebrew children in the fiery furnace and notices that there are 4 guys walking around. He even exclaims that the 4th looked like the Son of God. The only way in the WORLD he could have known that was enlightenment from the Holy Spirit. He then went on to gush about how Wonderful the Hebrew God was and on and on. I mean he had an experience!! Hyped up, pumped up... I get a kick though it doesn't take him long to forget it and go out and think about how great HE was and all HIS hands had made. He was enlightened... it just didn't really sink into him. He went back to his old ways...

You can partake of the Holy Spirit, I think Judas did. He saw the Lord Jesus do every miracle possible.. he was part of it. He was sent out to cast out devils and preach the Gospel of the Kingdom but he never embraced it, he didn't have faith. But he most DID partake.

I am going to look up Fall away and study it a bit... I know that the greek word used in this passage is the ONLY time it was used. It wasn't like the falling away paul speaks of in the last days.. but I don't have my facts straight so I'm not going to try to explain it just yet.

You can partake of the Holy Spirit, i think Judas did. He saw the Lord Jesus do every miracle possible..he was part of it. He was sent out to cast out devils and preach the Gospel of the Kingdom but he never embraced it, he didn't have faith. But he most DID partake.
Judas was not saved?

classyT,
I think it means that we are to have the highest respect for God and know that he is perfect in all aspects including, love, mercy, and JUSTICE.
We should keep in mind always that sin is what damns us and that every sin must be forgiven in the manner mentioned in Holy Scripture.
The sins of days gone by that you asked for forgiveness for today will be forgiven, but not those of tomorrows unless you confess them with remorse and ask for forgiveness.
Also keep in mind what Jesus said about forgiveness. If we do not forgive others we will NOT be forgiven.
That is where the trembling comes in. We should not goof up and start asuming everything about our salvation is A-OK and forget to do the work of being saved.
Faith is but one of the works of being saved. Being sorry for our sins, asking for forgiveness and forgiving others are also works that are necessary.
It's all there in Holy Scripture on what we must do.
May the grace of God helps on our trek up the road to heaven.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tom,

Hmmm. Well I do not write as well as you, I'm not as smart as you and I'm not as logical as you but... I will attempt to explain it.

I beg to differ. I have found you to be both smart and capable of logically presenting your views.


The writer of Hebrews is writing to the Jews. Some of these Jews had a really hard time giving up the Law. They were prone to hang on to Judaism. It is obvious they did not understand Paul's doctrine of Grace. Sure they could accept the Lord Jesus as the Messiah but Paul wanted them to understand that He had died for the sins of the world. I think you have to understand that before you can understand Hebrews.

Agreed.


I will say this though, you most certainly can be enlightened and have an emotional experience without really being a believer. The story that comes to my mind off hand is King Nebuchandezzar. This guy throws the 3 Hebrew children in the fiery furnace and notices that there are 4 guys walking around. He even exclaims that the 4th looked like the Son of God. The only way in the WORLD he could have known that was enlightenment from the Holy Spirit.

I would disagree that an emotional experience qualifies as enlightenment. Often emotion will cloud the logical portion of the mind and will in fact make enlightenment more difficult.

Of course Nebuchadnezzar did turn to the one true God at the end, so the Holy Spirit was working on him:

Dan 4:36-37
36 At the same time my reason returned to me, and for the glory of my kingdom, my honor and splendor returned to me. My counselors and nobles resorted to me, I was restored to my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added to me. 37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and extol and honor the King of heaven, all of whose works are truth, and His ways justice. And those who walk in pride He is able to put down.
NKJV

But keep in mind also that in the OT, the Holy Spirit did not indwell believers as He did after the ascension of Christ, so when we read this passage in Hebrews, we have to read it also in the light of the NT when we refer to the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer.


He was enlightened... it just didn't really sink into him. He went back to his old ways...

As did David. But I am sure that you would agree that David was saved.


You can partake of the Holy Spirit, I think Judas did.

We cannot go by what we think happened when we are talking doctrinal issues. Scripture nowhere says that Judas partook of the Holy Spirit, nor could he have in the NT sense of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, because he was dead by that time.

Further, scripture is clear that the unsaved cannot partake of the Holy Spirit:

John 14:16-17
16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-- 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
NKJV

You will not find anything in scripture about a non-believer receiving the Holy Spirit, being a partaker of the Holy Spirit, or any similar reference.


He saw the Lord Jesus do every miracle possible.. he was part of it. He was sent out to cast out devils and preach the Gospel of the Kingdom but he never embraced it, he didn't have faith. But he most DID partake.

Where does scripture say that he partook of the Holy Spirit?


I am going to look up Fall away and study it a bit... I know that the greek word used in this passage is the ONLY time it was used. It wasn't like the falling away paul speaks of in the last days.. but I don't have my facts straight so I'm not going to try to explain it just yet.

Okay, fair enough. I look forward to hearing what you find out.

We have discussed the levels of knowledge God grants to HIS children. Perhaps that fact has to be understood for everyone to recognize how we do work in a sense, at being all God created us to be.

Scripture teaches that we are graced according to the measure of gift of Christ. (Eph 4:7)

We are being built to be that one body in Christ.. We endeavour many things to stay in unity with the one spirit our Saviour Christ.. As we have been called to be the body of fresh in one hope joined to the one spirit Christ Jesus.

Though One Lord, One Faith, and One Baptism( Eph 4:5)

Paul spoke of this being the imprisoned walk in one spirit that we walk worthy and in obedence to the Will of God. That we might be granted according to HIS glory the blessing of spirit in the inner most flesh.(Eph 3:16) It is known to be the fulfillment of God within us, grounded in faith and love where Christ dwells within us.

Col 2:6-7 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

Tom, I feel the possible falling away is : Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Col 2:9-12 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

We cannot go by what we think happened when we are talking doctrinal issues.



LOL... ok don't make me come through this screen and smack you... that IS MY LINE. I know, I know, I should NOT have said I THINK. The problem that we are having is the what Paul meant by Partake. I do not study Greek but I heard someone say that if you study the word Paul used for partake.. it means someone who came along side to help NOT someone who had the Holy Spirit indwelling them.

I disagree with King Nebbynot being enlightened, I don't know how he could have possibly proclaimed that the 4th man in the furnace LOOKED like the son of God.

Daniel 3:24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound in the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, oh King.25. He answered them and said, Lo I see FOUR men loose, walking in the midst of the fire and they have not hurt... AND THE FORM OF THE FOURTH IS LIKE THE SON OF GOD.

How in the world could he have KNOWN something like that? It was enlightenment from the Holy Spirit. And Yes he eventually did believe God after the Lord showed him who was really in charge.. but he was enlightened... re read the praise he had for the God of the Hebrews. You would have thought he was a believer, but he wasn't... not yet anyway.

Now if the word "partake" that Paul uses in Hebrews means someone who comes along side to help... that is why I believe Judas did indeed partake. He didn't have faith, he saw the work of the Holy Spirit on a daily basis and was sent out to do the same thing that Jesus was doing. So indeed he did PARTAKE.

Notice that Paul uses "surfacey" words to describe these jews... They TASTED ( I taste things to see if I'm going to like it) that is what I believe Paul is saying they did. They were ENLIGHTENED.. doesn't say they were believers... just that the Holy Spirit had shown them some things... ( by the way happens ALL the time) Partakers... not that the Holy Spirit had been indwelling them, not that they were actually IN Christ, not that they were SEALED with the Holy Spirit of promise.. ( notice the difference when he is talking about the man in 1 Corinthians 5... this guy was a believer and Paul says give him over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that his SPIRIT may be SAVED.

The difference in the man in corinthians and the Jews Paul writes to in Hebrews is... the man was living in sin!! So Paul says.. let Satan have at him for the destruction of his flesh so that his spirit will be saved. But in HEBREWS these Jews were living in Unbelief... Oh they were enlightened.. yes they partook and tasted but they went back to their sacrifices. Put themselves under the Law. Could accept the Gospel of the KINGDOM that Jesus preached. See hebrews 6:1 Paul is telling them MOVE ON there is MORE but they couldn't accept the Gospel of Grace. Now what is the only thing the Lord can't forgive..?. Unbelief. For without faith it is impossible to please him. They were in unbelief. Why else would people go back to sacrificing and the Law unless they didn't believe in the finished work of Jesus?

AND.. while I'm on my tangent... lol I THINK ( yes they are MY thoughts) when Jesus said to blaspheme the Holy Spirit was an unforgivable sin that people today can't even do it. I believe he was talking to the Jews that stood and watched the dead rise, the sick healthy, the lame walk, the blind see... and they walked away in unbelief. Just like Judas did... ( I'm not even sure I should have thrown that in... and they are just MY thoughts on that particular subject which really has nothing to do with everything else I have said... ) oh well.

I'm still looking up the "falling away"... don't worry.. I will be back... ;)

Judas was not saved?

Well NO! How could he be?? He betrayed the Lord and instead of asking for forgiveness he hangs himself. He didn't believe, he had NO faith. Notice the difference in Peter's response after he betrayed the Lord. Plus Jesus point blank says that one of the twelve was a devil. Judas is also described as the son of perdition and the only other person who is called that is the antichrist. The Lord Jesus also said it would have been better for Judas if he hadn't been born. No... I do not believe that Judas was saved... no. nada, ain't no way, no how. Incidentally, when Judas killed himself the Bible says he went to his OWN place. I don't know what that means exactly but when the thief on the cross died the Lord said he would be with him in paradise... big difference.

classyT,
I think it means that we are to have the highest respect for God and know that he is perfect in all aspects including, love, mercy, and JUSTICE.
We should keep in mind always that sin is what damns us and that every sin must be forgiven in the manner mentioned in Holy Scripture.
The sins of days gone by that you asked for forgiveness for today will be forgiven, but not those of tomorrows unless you confess them with remorse and ask for forgiveness.
Also keep in mind what Jesus said about forgiveness. If we do not forgive others we will NOT be forgiven.
That is where the trembling comes in. We should not goof up and start asuming everything about our salvation is A-OK and forget to do the work of being saved.
Faith is but one of the works of being saved. Being sorry for our sins, asking for forgiveness and forgiving others are also works that are necessary.
It's all there in Holy Scripture on what we must do.
May the grace of God helps on our trek up the road to heaven.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

What happens if I don't have TIME to repent. What if I get killed instantly in a car accident and I had just told a little white lie before I got into the car... Or if I don't KNOW that what I had done was a sin? I really believe Jesus died for everyone of my sins, that I need to keep short accounts with God because when I don't it effects my relationship with him NOT my salvation.

The Lord calls us sheep because we are dumb just like they are.. they are prone to wander off, get caught in something, get hurt... they aren't real bright and neither are we. I thank Jesus that he doesn't expect me to try and keep my salvation. Salvation is of the Lord and if I have any WORK in it other than belief in what the Lord did... I will screw it UP! Don't you all feel that way too? Do you really think you can keep yourself saved? Am I that much of a screw up that I am the only one that KNOWS my flesh stinks to high heaven and as long as I have it... it will be a BATTLE?

Well NO! How could he be???. He betrayed the Lord and instead of asking for forgiveness he hangs himself. He didn't believe, he had NO faith. Notice the difference in Peter's response after he betrayed the Lord. Plus Jesus point blank says that one of the twelve was a devil. Judas is also described as the son of perdition and the only other person who is called that is the antichrist. The Lord Jesus also said it would have been better for Judas if he hadn't been born. No...I do not believe that Judas was saved....no. nada, ain't no way, no how. Incidently, when Judas killed himself the Bible says he went to his OWN place. I don't know what that means exactly but when the thief on the cross died the Lord said he would be with him in paradise...big difference.

Also note that Judas was a thief while he was one of the disciples. I see no evidence that Judas was saved at any time.

Fred,

What happens if I don't have TIME to repent. What if I get killed instantly in a car accident and i had just told a little white lie before I got into the car... Or if I don't KNOW that what I had done was a sin? I really believe Jesus died for everyone of my sins, that I need to keep short accounts with God because when i don't it effects my relationship with him NOT my salvation.

Classy,

I agree.

This is what I meant when I said that we cannot "lose" our salvation though we can deliberately turn away. God is not looking for a reason to condem us. If so Jesus would not have willing gone to the cross for our sins. God is not willing that any should perish, but rather wants us all to receive Jesus as Saviour. We are not going to lose our salvation every time that we commit a sin. 1 John 1:9 says that the Jesus paid the price for all unrighteousness.

Tom

LOL... ok don't make me come through this screen and smack you... that IS MY LINE. I know, I know, I should NOT have said I THINK. The problem that we are having is the what Paul meant by Partake. I do not study Greek but I heard someone say that if you study the word Paul used for partake.. it means someone who came along side to help NOT someone who had the Holy Spirit indwelling them.

The word used in this passage is metochos, which means a "sharer", "partaker" or "partner".

Notice in 2 Pet 1:4 when we are referred to as "partakers", it says that we have escaped corruption that is in the world through lust. In Hebrews 6, as I mentioned befiore, it speaks of those to which it refers having been "renewed to repetance". How can that refer to an unsaved person? How can an unsaved person be a partaker of the Holy Spirit who is renewed to repetance?


I disagree with King Nebbynot being enlightened, I don't know how he could have possibly proclaimed that the 4th man in the furnace LOOKED like the son of God.

We don't have enough on him to really make this a point of contention, in my opinion. I do see a difference between the Holy Spirit providing guidance to an unsaved person. For example, look at the usage of the word in Ephesians 1:18. That would seem to be referring to the saved, and not applicable to the unsaved.

So we could debate about whether Nebby was saved, but though he was given what may have been divinely inspired understanding on that one point, that would not mean that he was enlightened as the term is used in Eph 1:18.


Notice that Paul uses "surfacey" words to describe these jews... They TASTED ( I taste things to see if I'm going to like it) that is what I believe Paul is saying they did. They were ENLIGHTENED.. doesn't say they were believers... just that the Holy Spirit had shown them some things... ( by the way happens ALL the time) Partakers... not that the Holy Spirit had been indwelling them, not that they were actually IN Christ, not that they were SEALED with the Holy Spirit of promise.. ( notice the difference when he is talking about the man in 1 Corinthians 5... this guy was a believer and Paul says give him over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that his SPIRIT may be SAVED.

We need to take these altogether along with the fact they are described as falling away and having been renewed to repentance. When this is taken into consideration of them being partakers of the Holy Spirit (understood also in light of 2 Pet 1:4), I honestly don't know how much more clearly he could have described a person who was saved, but abandoned his or her salvation.


Why else would people go back to sacrificing and the Law unless they didn't believe in the finished work of Jesus?

I won't bring up a certain weekly sacrificing ritual of a certain major denomination ;)

Tom,

I don't know if you remember that I told you I grew up in an assembly that the "world" named plymouth Brethren. I say world because they never took a name and they believed it was not scriptural. John Darby was one of the so called founders of these assemblies that still exsist all over the world today> I think John Darby was a Brilliant guy although many disagree with his teachings on the rapture... ANYWAY... this is what he had to say concerning turning your back on the Lord.

John Darby, of the Plymouth brethren, who was preaching on the verse 'walk in the light as God is in the light' when someone yell out 'And what if we turn our back on God's light?' Darby responded, 'then God's light will shine on your back.' What was He saying? That God is faithful and doesn't give up on those that are His.

BTW, have you heard of John Darby and are you familiar with his teaching?

He betrayed the Lord and instead of asking for forgiveness he hangs himself. He didn't believe, he had NO faith..


Also note that Judas was a thief while he was one of the disciples. I see no evidence that Judas was saved at any time.

To discern his actions as being wrong is one thing, but to judge His soul ?

Matthew 27:3-4 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? See thou to that.


Matthew 27:10 And gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed me.

The potter's field for that broken vessel..

Have mercy upon me, O LORD, for I am in trouble: mine eye is consumed with grief, yea, my soul and my belly. For my life is spent with grief, and my years with sighing: my strength faileth because of mine iniquity, and my bones are consumed. I was a reproach among all mine enemies, but especially among my neighbours, and a fear to mine acquaintance: they that did see me without fled from me. I am forgotten as a dead man out of mind: I am like a broken vessel.

Snd,

I do not believe that Judas had any faith. For without faith it is impossible to please God.. I know you know the verse. I DO NOT base my belief on anything but the word of God. The Lord Jesus said he was a devil, called him the son of perdition, said it would have been better if he hadn't been born. The scriptures also record Judas went to his own place. These are FACTS in the Bible... dont believe me? Ok... check it out...

John 6:64, 68a, 69a, 70, and 71 records the words of Jesus in regards to Judas:


“But there are some of you who do NOT believe". For Jesus KNEW from the beginning who they were who did NOT believe, and who it was that would BETRAY Him... Simon Peter answered Him... 'and we (apostles) have believed.' Jesus answered them, 'Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?' Now He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him

If that isn't enough info for you check this verse out...

“While I was with them, I was keeping them in Thy name which Thou has given Me; and I guarded them, and no one of them perished but (or except) the son of perdition, that the Scriptures might be fulfilled John 17:12

The scripture also says the Judas went to his own place... there is No where else in scripture where that phrase is used.

So you see, I do not JUDGE him... I am simply giving the FACTS of the Bible. The Lord Jesus said he was lost.. not me. The Lord Jesus said he was a devil.. not me. The Lord Jesus called him the son of perdition... not me.

With what has been recorded... I am scratching my head wondering how you could NOT believe that Judas was a unbeliever.

classyT,
I believe that partake means to participate in or with such as to partake of supper (eat it) or to partake of baseball (play in the sport) and you that with others.
The dictionary says... it is a intransitive verb 1 : to take part in or experience something along with others <partake in the revelry> <partake of the good life> 2 : to have a portion (as of food or drink) 3 : to possess or share a certain nature or attribute <the experience partakes of a mystical quality>
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tom,

I don't know if you remember that I told you I grew up in an assembly that the "world" named plymouth Brethren. I say world because they never took a name and they believed it was not scriptural. John Darby was one of the so called founders of these assemblies that still exsist all over the world today> I think John Darby was a BRILLANT guy although many disagree with his teachings on the rapture...ANYWAY...this is what he had to say concerning turning your back on the Lord.

John Darby, of the Plymouth brethren, who was preaching on the verse 'walk in the light as God is in the light' when someone yell out 'And what if we turn our back on God's light?' Darby responded, 'then God's light will shine on your back.' What was He saying? That God is faithful and doesn't give up on those that are His.

BTW, have you heard of John Darby and are you familar with his teaching?

I am aware of the Plymouth Brethren and aware of the general theological positions taken by Darby, though I cannot claim to be intimately familiar with all of his teachings.

To discern his actions as being wrong is one thing, but to judge His soul ?

I did not judge his soul. I was examining the evidence given in scripture.



Matthew 27:3-4 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? See thou to that.


Matthew 27:10 And gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed me.

The potter's field for that broken vessel..

Have mercy upon me, O LORD, for I am in trouble: mine eye is consumed with grief, yea, my soul and my belly. For my life is spent with grief, and my years with sighing: my strength faileth because of mine iniquity, and my bones are consumed. I was a reproach among all mine enemies, but especially among my neighbours, and a fear to mine acquaintance: they that did see me without fled from me. I am forgotten as a dead man out of mind: I am like a broken vessel.

He regretted what he did but that is not the same as receiving Jesus as Saviour. Where did he acknowledge Him as Lord? As Saviour? The same could be said of Pilate who knew that Jesus was innocent and washed his hands of the crime. But was he saved?

classyT,
I believe that partake means to participate in or with such as to partake of supper (eat it) or to partake of baseball (play in the sport) and you that with others.
The dictionary says.... it is a intransitive verb 1 : to take part in or experience something along with others <partake in the revelry> <partake of the good life> 2 : to have a portion (as of food or drink) 3 : to possess or share a certain nature or attribute <the experience partakes of a mystical quality>
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I don't disagree with you on that Fred. I think it does mean exactly that but I believe it still doesn't mean these jews had the Holy Spirit indwelling in them. I think you can participate, to take part in, to experience and ALL of that these Jewish people were doing. I think it is the same today, people can partake of the Holy Spirit in a worship service, they can be moved by his presence. Some are even HEALED... doesn't make them sealed with the Holy Spirit doesn't make them believers.

Tom,

About falling away... I have been trying to find the best explanation and I came across a guy named Les Feldik. He has a TV program and I have met him several times at local bible studies. I have never met anyone who understood Grace better than Les and he NEVER mixed law with Grace. He has a ranch or a farm or something and he doesn't have a income from his teachings. I have sent him letters picking his brain and he has called me on the phone to explain. Actually I have talked to him twice on the phone. He teaches the Bible like no one I have ever met and uses the KJV and makes it very easy to read. I have no idea why I am giving you his background except to say... he is Smart and knowledgeable in the Word and very approachable. Anyway, I looked up his take on that verse and especially the "falling away" that I promised to discuss. I agree with him on this issue so I hope you take the time to read it.

Hebrews 4:6a ( Les Feldik is teaching this... )

"If (scary word isn't it?) they (these people who had this much understanding) shall fall away…"


We're going to stop right there. This word that is translated "fall away" and I put it on the board ahead of time, in the Greek is 'parapipto.' Now I'm not a Greek scholar and you don't have to be, but here's one instance where it pays to see the difference. This word is the only time it's used in the whole New Testament. Where it's translated in verse 6 that "if they shall fall away," it is a "parapipto," whereas the other word that we're most familiar with like in II Thessalonians chapter 2 that "unless there is a falling away first" – that term is "apostasia" and it, too, is translated "falling away." But it does not have the connotation that this one does.


And I'm going to show you why, because since it's the only time it's used in the Greek in our whole New Testament, even the Greek scholars have a hard time really nailing it down. But, I went through enough and found that one great linguist of days gone by said, "The only way you can understand this term – parapipto – is to realize what it means in the Hebrew." And so the Hebrew word is "mahal." M-A-H-A-L. We're going to look and see what that word "mahal" really is talking about.


Let's come all the way back to Numbers chapter 5, and let's just drop down to verse 12. Remember what we're showing - that this Hebrew word "mahal" is the best parallel with the Greek word "parapipto" which is only used in Hebrews chapter 6.


And I'm taking the time to show the difference because I want you to see that this falling away in Hebrews chapter 6 is far worse than the normal term to fall away or to be apostasia. Let's start with verse 11.


Numbers 5:11-12

"And the LORD spake unto Moses saying, 12. Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man's wife go aside, and commit a (what's the word?) trespass (that's the Hebrew word "And the LORD spake unto Moses saying, 12. Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man's wife go aside, and commit a (what's the word?) trespass (that's the Hebrew word ") against him," (her husband)


And what does she do? She commits adultery with another man. Now of course, we know that adultery was common in Israel just like it is today, but this is a unique situation from the word ") against him," It is when this woman literally "mahal." on her husband. She doesn't just get caught in a moment of temptation and weakness but she, of her own volition, with a scornful turning her back to her husband goes and commits adultery, now that's the word mahal translated 'trespass.' All right, the next one is in Ezekiel chapter 14, and we'll start with verse 14. This is the same Hebrew word.


Ezekiel 14:12-13

"turns her back with scorn"


Is that the term that was used with backsliding that we looked at in the last program? No. Backsliding would bring in God's mercy and grace but this "The word of the LORD came again to me, saying, 13. Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing (mahal) grievously, then will I stretch out my hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it and will cut off man and beast from it:" is an apostasy or a "scornfully turning the back" that is so scornful in it's act that God has nothing left but judgment. He can't deal with it in mercy and grace. Now see, that's what makes the difference then.


Aright, flip all the way back to Hebrews chapter 6 and this is what makes the difference, I think, in these verses in Hebrews that so many people have got all confused and are shook up about. This is not the common ordinary believer who has suddenly fallen into sin and he's not lost. He hasn't scornfully rejected the things of God, but rather he's just simply been human and he's been caught in a moment of weakness and he falls, like we saw in our last program. The man in Corinth that was restored, and forgiven. Can you see that?


But these people made a scornful turning of the back on these things that God had revealed to them. Now then, since this is a much different situation of an apostatizing, look what the result will be.


Hebrews 6:6

"parapipto"


What are we dealing with? We're dealing with people who have claimed to be believers. Now, I'm going to keep it in the Hebrew element first. And then we'll jump up to where we are today. Even these Hebrews to whom Paul is now writing, have made a semblance of believing. They have gone along with all these things, but then when they really were pressed to make a decision to move on forward, what did they scornfully do? They went back under the Law and there was no more of God dealing with them.


Now I know I have taught, and I will continue to teach, that God never gives up on a lost person. But, it would seem to indicate that someone who has made a profession of faith without really becoming a believer and then at one point in time, they scornfully, like the ones we've looked at in King Saul, what did he do? He just scornfully went his own way. What was his end? Suicide.


Judas. Three years he trafficked along with Jesus and the eleven, playing the perfect hypocrite. But in the final analysis, when it was time to really show his colors, what did he do? He scorned the Lord and went and sold Him for thirty pieces of silver. And ends up committing suicide.
Ok, that ends what Les Feldik had to say. What do you think?

I hope you read all that because he explain I better than I could.

But when push comes to shove I really do not believe that these jews were NOT believers at all... they were tasting, the were partaking.. Paul could have easily used the terms like believers that were filled with the Holy Spirit.. but he didn't. He used surface words. Because that is as far as the Jews got... he was constantly encouraging them to move on in their walk. Ok, I think I have given you all I can on the subject. I doubt you will change your mind but perhaps you can consider it for a least a second or two. ;)

Tj3,
The Lord God knows for sure.
No one else knows for sure about Judas or Pilate, but there has been a lot of speculation and some out right statements that they were hell bound.
Also which version in the bible about the death of Judas do you think is the correct one?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Also which version in the bible about the death of Judas do you think is the correct one?


Both are correct.

Tj3,
Please explain how they both can be correct.
Thanks,
'Fred

Tj3,
Please explain how they both can be correct.
Thanks,
'Fred

There are a couple of plausible explanations. First, he hung himself. Not a public hanging so it is likely the body was hanging a while and in a warmer climate like that, it takes very little time before decomposition starts. The body would eventually swell up with the decomposition process and the rope would fail and the body would split open.

The Greek term used in scripture for "falling headlong" can mean that, or can also mean to become swollen, so both are valid understandings.

Tom,

About falling away...

That is a long post. I did not have a chance to get to this earlier and I am too tired to try to tackle this right now, but I will try to get to it tomorrow night.

Tj3,
Thanks Tom.
I've heard that before but I thought you might have more on that.
I believe the bible is correct so the full explanation on the death of Judas remains a mystery.
Fred

“While I was with them, I was keeping them in Thy name which Thou has given Me; and I guarded them, and no one of them perished but (or except) the son of perdition, that the Scriptures might be fulfilled John 17:12

From the beginning of the Word, with all that is written, we profit by what was and continues to establish godilness. The righteousness of who Christ Jesus ensampled.

Christ Jesus justifies, and we are not to condemn our enemies. We are to love our enemies. (Luke 6:36 Be ye merciful, as your Father also is mericful) We therefore can be thankful and in hope of always being guarded, within Christ. And we should not cease to pray for the strength and guarded guidance to remain in HIS righteousness. Because it is God's chosen choice, and it is said that all may come, and not to call any unclean...



With what has been recorded...i am scratching my head wondering how you could NOT believe that Judas was a unbeliever.

Judas did repent... why would he turn to repent ? Why would he elect to end his own life of sin? How many others denied Christ? Why is there hope for any? Is the wage of sin death?

There were many who denied Christ within the crowd that were asked who they would choose. Christ's heart of mercy was spoken (Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.)

It is written (Luke 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again. )

ClassyT, we both learn from what is written, and we have much more profit in love.

But was he saved?

Tom, we can go by what is written, in a discerning heart for what is right and wrong. And pray for the spirit of Christ to guide.

Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

Snd,

Yes Judas DID repent.. but who to? Not the Lord. I think there is enough evidence in scripture to say that Judas had NO faith. He knew he had betrayed innocent blood and he felt sorry but there is no biblical evidence that Judas believed that Jesus was who he said he was. Peter denied the Lord but he was the one that proclaimed that Jesus WAS the Christ the son of the living God. Peter had faith and besides all of that Listen to what JESUS said about Judas... ( he didn't say it about Peter or anyone else.) Like I pointed out earlier.. the only other person called the son of perdition is the antichrist. Now that HAS to make you stop and think...

Therefore, I don't believe Judas went to heaven and I don't know how many scripture you need but when the Lord said he was a devil, it would be better if he hadn't been born.. he even goes so far as to say the only one of the 12 that was lost is HIM... I'm thinking... hmmm? What is Jesus trying to SAY here? OH.. I see what he saying TRYING TO SAY... Judas is a devil and it would be better if he hadn't been born and he was lost.. Now I'm NO einstein but it really doesn't sound like Judas is sitting in heavenly places with the Father and the Son right now... call me crazy. Call me judgmental... but don't call me someone who makes up my own truth. I didn't write it all I did was read it. :)

That is a long post. I did not have a chance to get to this earlier and I am too tired to try to tackle this right now, but I will try to get to it tomorrow night.

I know it was long and I apologize, I never do that but I didn't know how else to explain so I used Les Feldiks word... sorry. I have a sneaking suspension you aren't going to concede but that's OK. You've challenged me to go deeper into the word and to understand verses that I couldn't explain before.

Now i'm NO einstein but it really doesn't sound like Judas is sitting in heavenly places with the Father and the Son right now...call me crazy. Call me judgmental...but don't call me someone who makes up my own truth. I didn't write it all i did was read it. :)

ClassyT, The mercy in love of Our Father, and the forgiveness sent in Christ and given in HIS glory is where we can rest.

You have said yourself that you sin. Is there a degree in sin? Would you say HIS mercy for you and your sins are the exception from others? To grant yourself HIS justificationt by your fatih in HIM, and yet turn from a brother to say his sins are greater, is that right? I understand all that was written of Judas, and the dark side of what held him. But sin is the dark side, and to repent is important.

I recognize your heart by discernment in love for Christ. But I don't feel we are suppose to discern Judas other then his actions were wrong.

The scripture said he saw his comdemned, and repented himself...

And in love for Christ and HIS glory for all mankind,we should all rest in HIS justification and HIS intercession.

Romans 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.


Matthew 27:5 referance:

and hange himself is the interpretation of the single word "apogcho" that means (throttle, strangle, in order to put out of the way or kill) From where I stand in awareness to this single word apogcho, I don't put the word (himself) in this as evident.

It would appear he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed (anachoreo = withdrew as to of those who through fear seek some other place)
and went (aperchomai = of departing evils and sufferings)
and hanged himself (apogcho = was hanged or strangled) instead of hanged himself.

We do not know for sure the heart of Judas, nor do we want to pass judgement upon him.

So we do disagree, I pray we both can find our guidance and help unto the Spirit

Off thread and I don't mean to go further in doing so.. Sorry

Tom,

About falling away...I have been trying to find the best explanation and I came across a guy named Les Feldik. He has a TV program and I have met him several times at local bible studies. I have never met anyone who understood Grace better than Les and he NEVER mixed law with Grace. He has a ranch or a farm or something and he doesn't have a income from his teachings. I have sent him letters picking his brain and he has called me on the phone to explain. Actually I have talked to him twice on the phone. He teaches the Bible like no one I have ever met and uses the KJV and makes it very easy to read. I have no idea why I am giving you his background except to say...he is Smart and knowledgeable in the Word and very approachable. Anyway, I looked up his take on that verse and especially the "falling away" that i promised to discuss. I agree with him on this issue so I hope you take the time to read it.

Hebrews 4:6a ( Les Feldik is teaching this...)

"If (scary word isn't it?) they (these people who had this much understanding) shall fall away…"


We're going to stop right there. This word that is translated "fall away" and I put it on the board ahead of time, in the Greek is 'parapipto.' Now I'm not a Greek scholar and you don't have to be, but here's one instance where it pays to see the difference. This word is the only time it's used in the whole New Testament. Where it's translated in verse 6 that "if they shall fall away," it is a "parapipto," whereas the other word that we're most familiar with like in II Thessalonians chapter 2 that "unless there is a falling away first" – that term is "apostasia" and it, too, is translated "falling away." But it does not have the connotation that this one does.


And I'm going to show you why, because since it's the only time it's used in the Greek in our whole New Testament, even the Greek scholars have a hard time really nailing it down. But, I went through enough and found that one great linguist of days gone by said, "The only way you can understand this term – parapipto – is to realize what it means in the Hebrew." And so the Hebrew word is "mahal." M-A-H-A-L. We're going to look and see what that word "mahal" really is talking about.


Let's come all the way back to Numbers chapter 5, and let's just drop down to verse 12. Remember what we're showing - that this Hebrew word "mahal" is the best parallel with the Greek word "parapipto" which is only used in Hebrews chapter 6.


And I'm taking the time to show the difference because I want you to see that this falling away in Hebrews chapter 6 is far worse than the normal term to fall away or to be apostasia. Let's start with verse 11.


Numbers 5:11-12

"And the LORD spake unto Moses saying, 12. Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man's wife go aside, and commit a (what's the word?) trespass (that's the Hebrew word "mahal") against him," (her husband)


And what does she do? She commits adultery with another man. Now of course, we know that adultery was common in Israel just like it is today, but this is a unique situation from the word "mahal." It is when this woman literally "turns her back with scorn" on her husband. She doesn't just get caught in a moment of temptation and weakness but she, of her own volition, with a scornful turning her back to her husband goes and commits adultery, now that's the word mahal translated 'trespass.' Alright, the next one is in Ezekiel chapter 14, and we'll start with verse 14. This is the same Hebrew word.


Ezekiel 14:12-13

"The word of the LORD came again to me, saying, 13. Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing (mahal) grievously, then will I stretch out my hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it and will cut off man and beast from it:"


Is that the term that was used with backsliding that we looked at in the last program? No. Backsliding would bring in God's mercy and grace but this "scornfully turning the back" is an apostasy or a "parapipto" that is so scornful in it's act that God has nothing left but judgment. He can't deal with it in mercy and grace. Now see, that's what makes the difference then.


Aright, flip all the way back to Hebrews chapter 6 and this is what makes the difference, I think, in these verses in Hebrews that so many people have got all confused and are shook up about. This is not the common ordinary believer who has suddenly fallen into sin and he's not lost. He hasn't scornfully rejected the things of God, but rather he's just simply been human and he's been caught in a moment of weakness and he falls, like we saw in our last program. The man in Corinth that was restored, and forgiven. Can you see that?


But these people made a scornful turning of the back on these things that God had revealed to them. Now then, since this is a much different situation of an apostatizing, look what the result will be.


Hebrews 6:6

"If they shall fall away, (or if they shall turn their backs scornfully on these things that are now revealed to them, it is impossible) to renew them again unto repentance; (it's impossible) seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."


What are we dealing with? We're dealing with people who have claimed to be believers. Now, I'm going to keep it in the Hebrew element first. And then we'll jump up to where we are today. Even these Hebrews to whom Paul is now writing, have made a semblance of believing. They have gone along with all these things, but then when they really were pressed to make a decision to move on forward, what did they scornfully do? They went back under the Law and there was no more of God dealing with them.


Now I know I have taught, and I will continue to teach, that God never gives up on a lost person. But, it would seem to indicate that someone who has made a profession of faith without really becoming a believer and then at one point in time, they scornfully, like the ones we've looked at in King Saul, what did he do? He just scornfully went his own way. What was his end? Suicide.


Judas. Three years he trafficked along with Jesus and the eleven, playing the perfect hypocrite. But in the final analysis, when it was time to really show his colors, what did he do? He scorned the Lord and went and sold Him for thirty pieces of silver. And ends up committing suicide.
Ok, that ends what Les Feldik had to say. What do you think?

I hope you read all that because he explain i better than I could.

But when push comes to shove i really do not believe that these jews were NOT believers at all...they were tasting, the were partaking..Paul could have easily used the terms like believers that were filled with the Holy Spirit..but he didn't. He used surface words. because that is as far as the Jews got....he was constantly encouraging them to move on in their walk. Ok, i think I have given you all i can on the subject. I doubt you will change your mind but perhaps you can consider it for a least a second or two. ;)

Tess - I like your treatment of this subject. Actually, since you did paraphrase Les Feldik's perspective, I guess I like his treatment of it :) At any rate, for what it's worth, I'd like to offer my two cents on what you have already covered.

It seems to me, Tess, that in our modern Christian culture whenever we try to delineate belief from unbelief in an individual we will quickly judge that someone who prays the sinner's prayer or asks Jesus into his heart is a Christian... unequivocally. Our thinking is that someone who rejects our message is definitely not a Christian so anyone who does must be a Christian. But this understanding of belief is a superficial one in my opinion because it doesn't address something the bible refers to as inwardness. The bible says that man looks at the outward appearance but God searches the heart of a man. Well, we cannot search the heart of a man but if God looks beyond the appearance of people and considers their heart, why should we revert back to examining the outward appearance of people (by this I mean man's outward verbal commitment to the truth)? Jesus said that we will know whether a tree is good or not by its fruit (and in that context he was speaking of false prophets but I think it is a useful paradigm for understanding people too). What I am saying is that just because Judas said he was a disciple of Jesus outwardly didn't mean that he was a committed disciple of Jesus inwardly. What I have observed on this Christian forum—on a few occasions now—is people's surprise at the notion that Judas was not a believer. Some people will say "Judas sat at the feet of Jesus and walked in his shadow; how could he not be a believer?" But what's striking is that his life seemed to consistently stand in contrast to what we would think was real faith.

The argument I use for why I think this is true is the commentary of Jesus as well as John on Judas. Consider the following scenario from the Upper Room:

“Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that his hour had come to depart out of this world to the Father, having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end. During supper, when the devil had already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him, Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come from God and was going back to God, rose from supper. He laid aside his outer garments, and taking a towel, tied it around his waist. Then he poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples' feet and to wipe them with the towel that was wrapped around him. He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, “Lord, do you wash my feet?” Jesus answered him, “What I am doing you do not understand now, but afterward you will understand.” Peter said to him, “You shall never wash my feet.” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no share with me.” Simon Peter said to him, “Lord, not my feet only but also my hands and my head!” Jesus said to him, “The one who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but is completely clean. And you are clean, but not every one of you.” For he knew who was to betray him; that was why he said, “Not all of you are clean.”

What is going on here? I think some would see this section this way. Jesus was describing Judas as being positionally unclean. He was walking in disobedience to God as this time but he was a believer. The problem I see with this interpretation is that it doesn't get at the meaning of the term clean, as Jesus is using it. I believe it is a reference to the term “washed” that Paul uses in 1 Corinthians 6: “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” Paul is pointing out that people who habitually practice sin are not washed by the Spirit of God. Believers will still struggle with sin but struggling with it is not the issue. The issue is those who as a manner of practice, are given over to practicing sin of all kinds. In the case of Judas, he was murderous and a thief. Jesus said this of Judas: 'He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.' Judas knew that by going to the Sanhedrin, he was guaranteeing a death sentence for Jesus. His heart was completely against Jesus. Secondly, Judas was a thief. He was entrusted with the money the disciples collected for their welfare. This is John's take on Judas (John Ch 12):

“But Judas Iscariot, one of his disciples (he who was about to betray him), said, “Why was this ointment not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?” He said this, not because he cared about the poor, but because he was a thief, and having charge of the moneybag he used to help himself to what was put into it. Jesus said, “Leave her alone, so that she may keep it for the day of my burial. For the poor you always have with you, but you do not always have me.”

Lastly, in Matthew's account, this is how Jesus describes Judas: “He who has dipped his hand in the dish with me will betray me. The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.” This I ask, if Judas Iscariot were simply a wayward believer, why would Jesus say that it would have been better if he had never been born. My take is that because Judas was enlightened to the truth and observed miracles in ways that many men had never before, he beyond so many others, knew that Jesus was the Christ. He could not deny that. But ultimately, his response to Jesus was to have him killed for money. He cheated Jesus and the disciples out of money while he was in charge of the money bag. At no time do the biblical authors ever evaluate Judas as one of the twelve in heart, but only in fact. Jesus said that he had chosen all of the disciples but Judas. He didn't mean that he did not make him part of his cohort; he meant that he was the only one whom he did not choose for eternal life:

“When he had washed their feet and put on his outer garments and resumed his place, he said to them, “Do you understand what I have done to you? You call me Teacher and Lord, and you are right, for so I am. If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that you also should do just as I have done to you. Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them. I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled, 'He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.' I am telling you this now, before it takes place, that when it does take place you may believe that I am he. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever receives the one I send receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me.”

So, for me it is not hard to see Judas as an unbeliever. He was probably one who received a far greater punishment from God than most unbelievers ever will…and I don't have any idea what that looks like or means but the idea of it alone is sobering. After all, Jesus said it would have been better for him if he had never been born.

But wasn't Judas part of God's plan for salvation? How could God then damn him?

Which takes us back to the original predestination question that was posed--"Was Judas' betrayal of Jesus a necessary, foreordained part of God's plan, or an unplanned act of free will on the part of Judas?"

Jakester,

Wow. YES exactly. It isn't a matter of me JUDGING him... the Lord is the one that revealed him to us. It doesn't take much to put two and two together. This man was NOT real and I don't know how many ways the Lord could say it.

WG,
Judas had free will and every opportunity to believe in the Lord Jesus. In fact he had MORE than most people because he sat at the Lord's feet and listened to him teach and watched every miracle. He is without excuse.

Well, I believe in predestination and free will and that God is sovereign so to answer your questions yes and yes. And no I don't understand it either.

Well, i believe in predestination and free will and that God is sovereign so to answer your questions yes and yes. and no i don't understand it either.
If Judas was a vital link in God's plan for salvation, would God damn him?

WG,

Did Judas have free will? What is the difference if we are talking about Judas or any one else that rejected Christ. The man had NO FAITH, it was HIS choice. I'm not going to defend God, I don't have to. I believe Paul wrote HE will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. WG, God is sovereign and if it is ONE THING that man hates about God it is his sovereignty. I don't understand it, I believe it, I accept it and most importantly I TRUST HIM. I don't have to figure it all out with my little mind. Aren't you the one telling me not to put God in a box. I suppose one day I will understand everything but for now I will let God be God.

If Judas was a vital link in God's plan for salvation, would God damn him?

Wondergirl - I believe the answer is yes, even though he was a "vital" link in God's plan for salvation. I suppose we bristle at that because we, especially as Americans, think we are really hot stuff. But when you read Romans 9, many commentators understand this section to be about God's sovereign choice for election and I do as well:

I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, [1] my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, [2] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,

“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel [3] be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, 28 for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” 29 And as Isaiah predicted,

“If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
we would have been like Sodom
and become like Gomorrah.”

Paul asks the question, is God being unjust by sovereignly choosing who he will save? No, because he can have mercy upon whoever he wants to. Where we get tripped up in this is when we fail to bring into the equation our own moral unworthiness as we consider this. We expect that God should be doling out eternal life to us because we are special; or at least we would like to believe that. But isn't the issue that we have with God our evil and unrighteousness? He doesn't have to be merciful to us but he does because he chooses to, not because he is obligated to. Moreover, Paul even argues that with Pharaoah, God raised him up (for the very purpose) of freeing Israel from captivity. Basically, as I understand it, Pharaoahs hardness of heart against God and Israel was part of God's plan because God ordained it so. And God was not at fault but Pharaoah was and is such judged by God.

My two cents.

WG,

Did Judas have free will? What is the difference if we are talking about Judas or any one else that rejected Christ.
Good question--did Judas have free will? Or did God cause Judas to choose evil in order to make God's plan of salvation work out? Has God tweaked your free will to make you choose Him? Does predestination put God in a box?

Paul asks the question, is God being unjust by sovereignly choosing who he will save? No, because he can have mercy upon whoever he wants to. Where we get tripped up in this is when we fail to bring into the equation our own moral unworthiness as we consider this. We expect that God should be doling out eternal life to us because we are special; or at least we would like to believe that. But isn't the issue that we have with God our evil and unrighteousness? He doesn't have to be merciful to us but he does because he chooses to, not because he is obligated to. Moreover, Paul even argues that with Pharaoah, God raised him up (for the very purpose) of freeing Israel from captivity. Basically, as I understand it, Pharaoahs hardness of heart against God and Israel was part of God's plan because God ordained it so. And God was not at fault but Pharaoah was and is such judged by God.

My two cents.

I know I know I'm always GUSHING but WOW Jakester. The entire post is right on and I so agree with you. Beautifully stated. Right on whoo hoo, you go!

This is what I mean when I say that the natural man hates God's sovereignty. It strings his bean because the natural man thinks somehow he is entitled to something and that God owes him something and here is the KICKER... he thinks GOD is UNJUST!

This is what I mean when I say that the natural man hates God's sovereignty. It strings his bean because the natural man thinks somehow he is entitled to something and that God owes him something and here is the KICKER ... he thinks GOD is UNJUST!

You are right, the natural man sees it that way. Well said!!

the natural man thinks somehow he is entitled to something and that God owes him something and here is the KICKER ... he thinks GOD is UNJUST!
Actually, it usually goes the other way--man thinks he owes God something for giving the free gift of salvation, and must somehow pay God for it by doing good works.

Actually, it usually goes the other way--man thinks he owes God something for giving the free gift of salvation, and must somehow pay God for it by doing good works.

Wondergirl - that is a good point... although it's been my experience that people favor that God owes them something. Maybe you have had more experiences in line with what you stated here?

Wondergirl - that is a good point...although it's been my experience that people favor that God owes them something. Maybe you have had more experiences in line with what you stated here?
My experiences include growing up in a parsonage and being a Christian teacher most of my life.

It's difficult to believe God offers salvation for free, no strings attached. Our minister once asked long-time members before the church service to write down the answer to this question, "If you died tonight, why would God allow you into His heaven?" Many of the answers were some form of "because I'm a good person and help others." On this board we have discussed Christianity with Christians who do not believe Jesus' sacrifice was all-sufficient, that we have to do our part too to make the salvation valid.

My experiences include growing up in a parsonage and being a Christian teacher most of my life.

It's difficult to believe God offers salvation for free, no strings attached. Our minister once asked long-time members before the church service to write down the answer to this question, "If you died tonight, why would God allow you into His heaven?" Many of the answers were some form of "because I'm a good person and help others." On this board we have discussed Christianity with Christians who do not believe Jesus' sacrifice was all-sufficient, that we have to do our part too to make the salvation valid.

That's an interesting perspective. I'm curious, how would you answer the minister's question? Not putting you on the spot but it's a thought-provoking question.

That's an interesting perspective. I'm curious, how would you answer the minister's question? Not putting you on the spot but it's a thought-provoking question.
By grace am I saved, through Christ. It is a gift of God, not of my own works, lest I boast that I had something to do with it.

Wondergirl,
There ARE strings attached to our salvation.
One is that we MUST have faith in Jesus Christ's salvation ministry.
Another is to be baptized in the faith.
Another is to prove that faith. A faith without works is dead, dead, dead.
So the bible says and so I believe.
It's like the TV ads say, this is a free gift all you need to do is pay shipping and handling.
The shipping and handling are the strings attached to that gift.
All gifts have some form of a string attached.
The one that comes with all gifts is that you must accept it or it is not a gift.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Wondergirl,
There ARE strings attached to our salvation.
One is that we MUST have faith in Jesus Christ's salvation ministry.
Another is to be baptized in the faith.
Another is to prove that faith. A faith without works is dead, dead, dead.
So the bible says and so I believe.
It's like the TV ads say, this is a free gift all you need to do is pay shipping and handling.
The shipping and handling are the strings attached to that gift.
All gifts have some form of a string attached.
The one that comes with all gifts is that you must accept it or it is not a gift.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Dear Fred,
There are NO strings attached. The gift is free and clear, with free delivery by the Holy Spirit. He's the one who works faith in your heart, so even that is not of your doing. If faith has been worked in your heart and you die without being baptized, no problem. Of course, one who has had faith instilled in his heart will, out of love and thankfulness, become baptized and will show unconditional love to others as a thank-you to God.

Wondergirl,
So you believe.
But I believe what the bible says.

Wondergirl,
So you believe.
But I believe what the bible says.
Me too.

Eph. 2:8.9 -- For grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.

My experiences include growing up in a parsonage and being a Christian teacher most of my life.

It's difficult to believe God offers salvation for free, no strings attached. Our minister once asked long-time members before the church service to write down the answer to this question, "If you died tonight, why would God allow you into His heaven?" Many of the answers were some form of "because I'm a good person and help others." On this board we have discussed Christianity with Christians who do not believe Jesus' sacrifice was all-sufficient, that we have to do our part too to make the salvation valid.

Exactly. The natural man thinks he can somehow earn it because he is good enough. When someone confronts him with the truth... there is ONE way and ONLY one.. he rejects it. John 14:6 When he is told there is NOTHING he can do to earn it... he rejects that notion. Why? Because he actually believes that outside of faith in Lord Jesus he can somehow please God. I agree that many people will say, " i am a good person." But what do they say when you tell them that God's Word says... "all of your rigtheousness are as filthy rags"? Two thing happens.. one they believe it or two... they don't. Why don't they? Because they want God on their terms. So YES, I do believe the natural man HATES God and HIS sovereignty and he just really loathes the thought that there are NOT many paths to God. I didn't say he actually understood that he hated God's sovereignty.. in fact most would deny it. They would rather blame bad doctrine and or just hate the messenger.

Predestination is a term that refers to God's determination in advance that something will happen in accordance with His fixed purpose. Let's look at who God is--
He is all-wise and all- knowing. He can do anything and everything we cannot do, and
He is everything good that we would like to be. He is Omnipotent ( all-powerful )
And Omniscient ( all-knowing ) and Omnipresent ( present everwhere ).
God is spirit; eternal and ever-living. He has no beginning or end. God is the Father of all creation, the Creator of all. He is all powerful and sustains the universe. He is the
Source of all life and everything that is. God gave Himself the name Yahweh.
We christians believe the Bible as God's Word and it teaches us about the past,
The present, and the furture. He could not tell us what the future is going to be if He did not know, but He knows everything. There are a lot of things that are a mystery
To us now but will be clear in the end.

Love and Blessings, Maggie 3

Hebrews 4:6a ( Les Feldik is teaching this...)

"If (scary word isn’t it?) they (these people who had this much understanding) shall fall away…"


We’re going to stop right there. This word that is translated "fall away" and I put it on the board ahead of time, in the Greek is ‘parapipto.’ Now I’m not a Greek scholar and you don’t have to be, but here’s one instance where it pays to see the difference. This word is the only time it’s used in the whole New Testament. Where it’s translated in verse 6 that "if they shall fall away," it is a "parapipto," whereas the other word that we’re most familiar with like in II Thessalonians chapter 2 that "unless there is a falling away first" – that term is "apostasia" and it, too, is translated "falling away." But it does not have the connotation that this one does.


And I’m going to show you why, because since it’s the only time it’s used in the Greek in our whole New Testament, even the Greek scholars have a hard time really nailing it down. But, I went through enough and found that one great linguist of days gone by said, "The only way you can understand this term – parapipto – is to realize what it means in the Hebrew." And so the Hebrew word is "mahal." M-A-H-A-L. We’re going to look and see what that word "mahal" really is talking about.

I have a basic problem with his approach. Anytime that we translate from one language into another, there is an inaccuracy because rarely does the grammar or words in one language have a perfect match to another language. So if we want to properly understand what this word means in context, we need to go back to the original language. But he does not do that - instead what he does cause further inaccuracy by taking a word translated into English, going to where that English word appears in a translation of the OT and translating it back into Hebrew to understand what it means in Greek.

Any good linguist would absolutely cringe at such an approach. I have seen this approach used by other religions to tryt o justify their interpretation of scripture, to try to make a word mean something other than what a straight reading of the Greek would have it mean, but I do not think it appropriate if we want to understand what was being said to the readers of the book of Hebrews.

What does the word Apostatize that the book of Hebrew means?


------------------------------------
Apostatize

[imp. & p. p. Apostatized; p. pr. & vb. n. Apostatizing.] [LL. Apostatizare.] To renounce totally a religious belief once professed; to forsake one's church, the faith or principles once held, or the party to which one has previously adhered.

He apostatized from his old faith in facts, took to believing in ?emblances. --Carlyle.
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
------------------------------------

So it means that you once did believe, but no longer believe.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,


Jakester,

Do you think that God meant that some vessels have no hope? That the vessels that God has used like servants, to show both honorable and dishonorable, are actually on the one side dishonorable servants of satan, and will not have a way of learning godliness? Can we be predestinent to an office and not yet knowing learn the ways in which best rules the result in goodness to that office?

Do you see that there might be a change that could be molded into being honorable. And in reality that as filthy rags that were doomed, NOW given a clean body because of grace. Set free from being filthy servants of unrighteousness, to live as a servant in righteousness.

When in God knowing each so well that He indeed uses each. Question: Is the outcome of each HIS prestinent calling for them, or rather the free will of the dishonorable servant which was known to God? AND for goodness God, used them to be an example?

Isa 64:4-5 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him. Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.

Isa 64:6-7 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.

Woe looks pretty gloomy for everyone, Except BUT NOW

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.



“If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
we would have been like Sodom
and become like Gomorrah.”

agree (Isa 1:9 Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah. )

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Isa 1:19-20 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken [it].

Jakester, I do not believe we are filthy rags any longer, because we were set free from what one man did once in the beginning and NOW by one man much great as brought us righteousness.

Isa 65:15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:



Paul asks the question, is God being unjust by sovereignly choosing who he will save? No, because he can have mercy upon whoever he wants to. Where we get tripped up in this is when we fail to bring into the equation our own moral unworthiness as we consider this. We expect that God should be doling out eternal life to us because we are special; or at least we would like to believe that. But isn't the issue that we have with God our evil and unrighteousness? He doesn't have to be merciful to us but he does because he chooses to, not because he is obligated to. Moreover, Paul even argues that with Pharaoah, God raised him up (for the very purpose) of freeing Israel from captivity. Basically, as I understand it, Pharaoahs hardness of heart against God and Israel was part of God's plan because God ordained it so. And God was not at fault but Pharaoah was and is such judged by God.

My two cents.

Does God have the right? My two cents is that God has every right, because of righteousness and love that "He is." God has shown HIS love in sending HIS begotten Son Christ Jesus. This was so we could overcome what satan, as the death of doomed eternity did in the beginning by one man... The evilness and sin goes on if we choose to walk in darkness... NOW we are set free from sin, given newness of life with the HOLY SPIRIT that dwells within us to guide and direct HIS way in us... HIS WAYs in righteousness and profitable as the gospel teaches in godliness...

If we think we sin, then repent and confess faith in Christ Jesus. Be ye holy for HE is HOLY. Believe in HIS worthiness.

~walk in Christ

I have a basic problem with his approach. Anytime that we translate from one language into another, there is an inaccuracy because rarely does the grammar or words in one language have a perfect match to another language. So if we want to properly understand what this word means in context, we need to go back to the original language. But he does not do that - instead what he does cause further inaccuracy by taking a word translated into English, going to where that English word appears in a translation of the OT and translating it back into Hebrew to understand what it means in Greek.

Any good linguist would absolutely cringe at such an approach. I have seen this approach used by other religions to tryt o justify their interpretation of scripture, to try to make a word mean something other than what a straight reading of the Greek would have it mean, but I do not think it appropriate if we want to understand what was being said to the readers of the book of Hebrews.

What does the word Apostatize that the book of Hebrew means?


------------------------------------
Apostatize

[imp. & p. p. Apostatized; p. pr. & vb. n. Apostatizing.] [LL. apostatizare.] To renounce totally a religious belief once professed; to forsake one's church, the faith or principles once held, or the party to which one has previously adhered.

He apostatized from his old faith in facts, took to believing in ?emblances. --Carlyle.
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
------------------------------------

So it means that you once did believe, but no longer believe.

Tj3 - I think it is shrinking back. I think in practice it is what the Israelites did with Moses. He was charged with bringing them to the Land of Promise but they kept wanting to go back to Egypt. Ultimately, I think it is this kind of spirit which characterizes apostatizing. It is the attitude of "I really liked Christianity and it made sense to me, but now I'm really not interested in it anymore." Like the parable of the sower relays, "And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away. And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature."

What does the word Apostatize that the book of Hebrew means?


------------------------------------
Apostatize

[imp. & p. p. Apostatized; p. pr. & vb. n. Apostatizing.] [LL. apostatizare.] To renounce totally a religious belief once professed; to forsake one's church, the faith or principles once held, or the party to which one has previously adhered.

He apostatized from his old faith in facts, took to believing in ?emblances. --Carlyle.
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
------------------------------------

So it means that you once did believe, but no longer believe.


Thank you Tom .. this does go back to what the scripture said in being beware lest any man spoil you through philosoghy and vain deceit, after tradition of men, ways of this world and not after Christ... It is also pretty clear towards the warning of anti-christ, or many anti-christ that will come. We are to watch carefully, and follow no one other then Christ.


Tom, I feel the possible falling away is : Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

I have a basic problem with his approach. Anytime that we translate from one language into another, there is an inaccuracy because rarely does the grammar or words in one language have a perfect match to another language. So if we want to properly understand what this word means in context, we need to go back to the original language. But he does not do that - instead what he does cause further inaccuracy by taking a word translated into English, going to where that English word appears in a translation of the OT and translating it back into Hebrew to understand what it means in Greek.

Any good linguist would absolutely cringe at such an approach. I have seen this approach used by other religions to tryt o justify their interpretation of scripture, to try to make a word mean something other than what a straight reading of the Greek would have it mean, but I do not think it appropriate if we want to understand what was being said to the readers of the book of Hebrews.

What does the word Apostatize that the book of Hebrew means?



------------------------------------
Apostatize

[imp. & p. p. Apostatized; p. pr. & vb. n. Apostatizing.] [LL. apostatizare.] To renounce totally a religious belief once professed; to forsake one's church, the faith or principles once held, or the party to which one has previously adhered.

He apostatized from his old faith in facts, took to believing in ?emblances. --Carlyle.
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
------------------------------------

So it means that you once did believe, but no longer believe.

Tom,

Well you know I respect your opinion . I guess I will dig deeper.

Thank you Tom .. this does go back to what the scripture said in being beware lest any man spoil you through philosoghy and vain deceit, after tradition of men, ways of this world and not after Christ... It is also pretty clear towards the warning of anti-christ, or many anti-christ that will come. We are to watch carefully, and follow no one other then Christ.

Snd,

I try so not to get irritated with your approach. OK.. I am calm and cool. I'm breathing slowly... NO ONE and I mean NO ONE here is following a tradition of man. K? And I'm pretty darn sure that Les Feldik AIN'T going to be the anti-christ.:rolleyes: And let me assure of something else... I am following Christ.but thanks anyway for your kind and thoughtful words of wisdom.

P.s. someone better pray for me... quick!! :D

Snd,

I try so not to get irritated with your approach. ok..i am calm and cool. I'm breathing slowly....... NO ONE and I mean NO ONE here is following a tradition of man. K? and I'm pretty darn sure that Les Feldik AIN'T gonna be the anti-christ.:rolleyes: And let me assure of something else....I am following Christ.but thanks anyways for your kind and thoughtful words of wisdom.

P.s. someone better pray for me ....quick!!!!!:D

ClassyT, I am not sure why you feel the target that the scripture references would apply to you? or to Les Feldik? It was not a target against you, him, or anyone individual, yet it does apply to anyone who would permit themselve to be beguiled into following satan.

The scripture quoted tells us ... that we can be beguiled in following any traditions of men. IN otherword someone or ones other then Christ.


Apostatize

So it means that you once did believe, but no longer believe.

And that the same idea in falling away from one's belief as Tom had defined was like scripture says in following anti-christ once you had already confess belief in Christ.

~in Christ

Thess. 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will come unless the
Falling away comes first...
The time is coming when the majority of the church will abandom sound doctrine
And will instead endorse whatever teaching seems popular at the moment.
The way to combat such an error now is to stick close to Jesus and His teaching.We must anchor our faith in the Word of God, not in miraculous signs and wonders. Satan can counterfeit many of God's Works, and if we do not know Gods Word, we
May be duped by them.
Thess: 2-9The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with
All power, signs, and lying wonders...

Be Prepared, Maggie 3

Tj3 - I think it is shrinking back. I think in practice it is what the Israelites did with Moses. He was charged with bringing them to the Land of Promise but they kept wanting to go back to Egypt. Ultimately, I think it is this kind of spirit which characterizes apostatizing. It is the attitude of "I really liked Christianity and it made sense to me, but now I'm really not interested in it anymore." Like the parable of the sower relays, "And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away. And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature."

I hear what you are saying but that is not the message that the words or the context convey.

As I said earlier to Classy, the description of a saved person falling away in Hebrews 6 is so specific in not only speaking of the person Apostatizing, but also describing the attributes of a person who is saved, that I cannot imagine what could have been said to make it clearer. Elsewhere in scripture we have descripture of those who have fallen away, for example:

Rom 11:17-22
And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, [remember that] you do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." Well [said]. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, [fn] if you continue in [His] goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
NKJV

Note that those who fail to continue in God's goodness (salvation) will be cut off from the tree. Note that those grafted on to the tree are "partakers". Jews who are part of the tree are saved, those who are cut off are not. But here we have those who are saved (Gentiles) who are warned that they could be cut off. But it is dependent upon what they do (remain in God's goodness). In case you question whether grafting to the tree means they are saved, look at Romans 11:11.

Romans 11:11
I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation [has come] to the Gentiles.
NKJV

Again, those who were grafted on (saved) are subsequently cut off for not remaining in God's goodness. If they were grafted on when they were saved, then can they still be saved when cut off?

Thess. 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will come unless the
falling away comes first....
The time is coming when the majority of the church will abandom sound doctrine
and will instead endorse whatever teaching seems popular at the moment.

I think that time has arrived. In many cities now, Christians are having trouble finding sound churches. I had a woman contact me on my website about 10 years ago and tell me that it was hard finding a sound church in her city ( a medium to large US city), and I was shocked. A friend who was from that city confirmed that what she said was true. Now I have seeing the same problem in cities in many places in the world.

I hear what you are saying but that is not the message that the words or the context convey.

Hey, Tom -

I've got no problem with you disagreeing with me but come on, man, you can't keep me hanging like that... offer an argument for why you think I'm off base because I care enough to have my theology challenged. How do you think my interpretation of the parable does not fit into the context? I think that is where you were in disagreement with me, right?

You got to man up if you're going to tell someone you think their interpretation is wrong... especially someone who agrees with you about the importance of context. I still believe I have it right but I'll be willing to listen to an opposing viewpoint.

Thanks.

Hey, Tom -

I've got no problem with you disagreeing with me but come on, man, you can't keep me hanging like that...offer an argument for why you think I'm off base because I care enough to have my theology challenged. How do you think my interpretation of the parable does not fit into the context? I think that is where you were in disagreement with me, right?

You gotta man up if you're going to tell someone you think their interpretation is wrong...especially someone who agrees with you about the importance of context. I still believe I have it right but I'll be willing to listen to an opposing viewpoint.

Thanks.

Jake,

Sorry, but after I posted that, I thought the same thing and added more to the post to clarify. Please go back and have another look.

Tom

Good question--did Judas have free will? Or did God cause Judas to choose evil in order to make God's plan of salvation work out? Has God tweaked your free will to make you choose Him? Does predestination put God in a box?


But wasn't Judas part of God's plan for salvation? How could God then damn him?

Which takes us back to the original predestination question that was posed--"Was Judas' betrayal of Jesus a necessary, foreordained part of God's plan, or an unplanned act of free will on the part of Judas?"


Predestination is a term that refers to God's determination in advance that something will happen in accordance with His fixed purpose.
Love and Blessings, Maggie 3

To get back on the awareness to be predestinent. My answer would be yes, we are predestinent to God's calling. The entire comprehensiveness of the scripture in God's Word is the calling HE has offered to all souls unto godliness. We are also predestinent in free will, to answer that calling... (knowing that free will has a right and wrong answer)

So God has sent HIS will to be followed. And our Father sent HIS begotten Son. Christ the blood of the new testiment. Christ answered HIS Father's will to the letter of everything that is written, and Christ fulfilled HIS Father's will. (That walk is there for us to follow)

As for Judas, having been predestinent to God's calling...YES he was.. However Judas made his own way, which was his predestinent free will answer in choice to do as he did. God then used Judas's choice to bring goodness, and to example what can happen to any that deny God, in going their own way. (discern what Judas did as wrong) BUT (do not judge Judas's heart of soul)

God uses everyone as He molds them into the path they eventually take. Using them in attempt to bring goodness along their way. We can read that Judas repented, and the money was cast back. Did Judas reap from what he sowed.. YES

There will be those, that God in foreknown knowledge, has continually used in their own predestinent free will. Some have choosen to stay in darkness, sin of the world, and lust after a life they feel is best in their ways. God actually gives some their own delusion to what they have elected to follow. We can not judge anyone, yet we can discern right from wrong to follow righteousness. That righteousness is in Christ..

What it is worth to anyone is their choice. Which seed are you, beause that is what you will be held accountable for doing.

Sndbay, I am not sure I understand all you have said, but I will think on it. I believe
God knows everything. It looks like predestination is one thing we cannot all
Agree on. Look at Rom. 11:33-36 "Yes, God's riches are very great, and His Wisdom
and Knowledge have no end! No one can explain the things God decides or understand
His ways. 34 As the Scripture says, "Who has known the mind of the Lord or who has been able to give him advice ? 35 "No one has ever given God anything that He must
pay back." 36 Yes God made all things, and everything continues though Him and for
Him. To Him be the glory forever! Amen."
God is not in a time zone as we are, and so it is hard for us to think without putting
A time to things, we do not understand. God knows our heart, that I am thankfull for.
Think of it this way, a movie made about the beginning of time until the end of time, as
We know it--Genesis-----Revelation... I think He has seen the movie and knows the ending.

Love and Blessings Maggie 3

It looks like predestination is one thing we cannot all
agree on.

Yes it is the idea of what predestination means.. And I acknowledge each predestinent option giving by God to us.(HIS calling is 1, Free will choice is 2) Those options leds to a single predestinent ending of life or death. This is how I see it...



Look at Rom. 11:33-36 "Yes, God's riches are very great, and His Wisdom
and Knowledge have no end! No one can explain the things God decides or understand
His ways. 34 As the Scripture says, "Who has known the mind of the Lord or who has been able to give him advice ? 35 "No one has ever given God anything that He must
pay back." 36 Yes God made all things, and everthing continues though Him and for
Him. To Him be the glory forever! Amen."

YES , To HIm be the glory forever Amen forsuch is the glory, praise honour He is ..

When we acknowledge that nothing of our lives could achieve the newness in life without the love HE sent in HIS begotten Son Christ Jesus. Then we can understand how everything continues through HIm and for HIM. We then hold that hope, which to me is in the 2 predestinent option of free will that brings life in HIM.




God knows our heart, that I am thankfull for.
Think of it this way, a movie made about the begining of time until the end of time, as
we know it--Genesis-----Revelation .....I think He has seen the movie and knows the ending.

Love and Blessings Maggie 3

Agree, God does know the hearts of each and as scripture has shown us in what Paul could overcome in Christ, and did experienced in his life. From the womb of his mother, God knew Paul's heart. And how Paul would change and accept God's way. How goodness came from God's mercy shown to Paul, but also how Paul had to accept it, and walk in Christ.

Example: We are to plant ourselves in righteousness, to reap mercy... The mercy is HIS righteousness to give us ...
Hsa 10:12 Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you.

Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

Thank you Sndbay, I am still studying what
You are saying, thanks.

Blessing, Maggie 3

Thank you Sndbay, I am still studying what
you are saying, thanks.

Blessing, Maggie 3

Hope u are feeling better. Take care..

I agree that "predestination is one thing we cannot all
agree on."
Fred

Sndbay, I am better and getting back my
Strength. Thanks for asking.
Blessing, Maggie 3

Fred, have you been gone? I haven't seen
Any posts from you for quite awhile. I hope you are well.

Blessings, Maggie 3

Maggie 3,
I have been here on different threads.
I'm getting along was well as can be expected for a guy with the several health problems that I have, thank God.
I'm glad to heard that you are better.
Fred

What makes me think in these verses is the phrase '' in Christ ''. Christ was before the foundation of the world and if I believe in Him , then I am in Him and because He was before the foundation of the world then IN HIM I was too!

What makes me think in these verses is the phrase '' in Christ ''. Christ was before the foundation of the world and if I believe in Him , then I am in Him and because He was before the foundation of the world then IN HIM I was too!

Your conclusion does not follow. If I buy a jar at the store, and put something in it, it does not follow that what I put in the jar was there before I bought it.

I am not sure what you are getting at.

adam7gur,
Yes, I can see what you mean.
Spirituality is eternal while other things are not.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Your conclusion does not follow. If I buy a jar at the store, and put something in it, it does not follow that what I put in the jar was there before I bought it.

I am not sure what you are getting at.

OK I had to read this over and over before I agreed with you on this... see you ARE more logical than I am.

BUT having said that, If God is out of our time and space... couldn't the verse mean what it says. We WERE chosen in HIM before the foundation of the world. In other words... what Jesus said... you have not chosen me.. but I have chosen you. The more I study this, the more I feel certain the verse means what it says and maybe, just maybe you are complicating it... :cool:

classyT,
I agree with you on this.
We are talking eternal spirituality.
Fred

ok I had to read this over and over before I agreed with you on this.....see you ARE more logical than i am.

BUT having said that, If God is out of our time and space...couldn't the verse mean what it says. We WERE chosen in HIM before the foundation of the world. In other words....what Jesus said...you have not chosen me..but I have chosen you. The more i study this, the more I feel certain the verse means what it says and maybe, just maybe you are complicating it....:cool:

It does mean that God chose us, but we also chose Him. It is a balance that we cannot comprehend because we chose Him on the timeline, and He chose us while looking from the outside at the timeline. To say that one happened before or after is how we must see it because we cannot comprehend what it means to be outside of time. That is why we can never fully understanding nor explain how this happens.

Maybe I am complicating it, but keep in mind that a being who is the eternal, omniscient, omnipotent creator of the universe is complicated. If we could fully comprehend Him and how he acts, then He would no longer be an infinite God, but a God who was out equal.

we chose Him
No. He chose us. We did nothing.

From The Formula of Concord --

2 Cor. 3, 5: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think
Anything as of ourselves, but our sufficiency is of God. Rom. 3, 12: They
Are together become unprofitable. John 8, 37: My Word hath no place in you.
John 1, 5: The darkness comprehendeth (or receiveth) it not [the light]. 1
Cor. 2, 14: The natural man receiveth not (or, as the Greek word properly
Signifies, grasps not, comprehends not, accepts not) the things of the
Spirit, that is, he is not capable of spiritual things; for they are
Foolishness unto him; neither can he know them. 13] Much less will he
Truly believe the Gospel, or assent thereto and regard it as truth. Rom. 8,
7: The carnal mind, or the mind of the natural man, is enmity against God;
For it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can be. And, in a
Word, it remains eternally true what the Son of God says, John 15; 5:
Without Me ye can do nothing. And Paul, Phil. 2, 13: It is God which
Worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure. 14] To all godly
Christians who feel and experience in their hearts a small spark or longing
For divine grace and eternal salvation this precious passage is very
Comforting; for they know that God has kindled in their hearts this
beginning of true godliness, and that He will further strengthen and help
Them in their great weakness to persevere in true faith unto the end.

24] But before man is enlightened, converted, regenerated, renewed, and
Drawn by the Holy Ghost, he can of himself and of his own natural powers
Begin, work, or concur in working in spiritual things and in his own
Conversion or regeneration just as little as a stone or a block or clay. For
Although he can control the outward members and hear the Gospel, and to a
Certain extent meditate upon it, also discourse concerning it, as is to be
Seen in the Pharisees and hypocrites, nevertheless he regards it as
Foolishness, and cannot believe it. And in this respect he acts even worse
Than a block, inasmuch as he is rebellious and hostile to God's will, unless
the Holy Ghost is efficacious in him, and kindles and works in him faith
and other virtues pleasing to God, and obedience.

25] Thirdly, in this manner, too, the Holy Scriptures ascribe conversion,
Faith in Christ, regeneration, renewal, and all that belongs to their
Efficacious beginning and completion, not to the human powers of the
Natural free will, neither entirely nor half, nor in any, even the least or
Most inconsiderable part, but in solidum, that is, entirely, solely, to the
divine working and the Holy Ghost, as also the Apology teaches.
26] Reason and free will are able to a certain extent to live an outwardly
Decent life; but to be born anew, and to obtain inwardly another heart,
Mind, and disposition, this only the Holy Ghost effects. He opens the
Understanding and heart to understand the Scriptures and to give heed to
The Word, as it is written Luke 24, 45: Then opened He their understanding
That they might understand the Scriptures. Also Acts 16, 14: Lydia heard
Us; whose heart the Lord opened that she attended unto the things which
Were spoken of Paul. He worketh in us both to will and to do of His own
Good pleasure, Phil. 2, 13. He gives repentance, Acts 5, 31; 2 Tim. 2, 25. He
Works faith, Phil. 1, 29: For unto you it is given, in behalf of Christ, not
Only to believe on Him. Eph. 2, 8: It is the gift of God. John 6, 29: This is
The work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent. He gives an
Understanding heart, seeing eyes, and hearing ears, Deut. 29, 4; Matt. 13,
15. He is a Spirit of regeneration and renewal, Titus 3, 5. 6. He takes away
The hard heart of stone, and gives a new tender heart of flesh, that we may
Walk in His commands, Ezek. 11, 19; Deut. 30, 6; Ps. 51, 10. He creates us
In Christ Jesus to good works, Eph. 2, 10, and makes us new creatures, 2
Cor. 5, 17; Gal. 6, 15. And, in short, Every good gift is of God, Jas. 1, 17. No
One can come to Christ unless the Father draw him, John 6, 44. No one
Knoweth the Father, save him to whom the Son will reveal Him, Matt. 11,
27. No one can call Christ Lord except by the Holy Ghost, 1 Cor. 12, 3.
Without Me, says Christ, ye can do nothing, John 15, 5. All our sufficiency
Is of God, 2 Cor. 3, 5.

40] In the Small Catechism of Dr. Luther it is thus written: I believe that I
cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or
come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me through the Gospel,
enlightened me with His gifts, and sanctified and kept me in the true
faith; even as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole
Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true
Faith, etc.

41] And in the explanation of the Second Petition of the Lord's Prayer the
following words occur: How is this, done? When our Heavenly Father gives
us His Holy Spirit, so that by His grace we believe His holy Word and live a
godly life, etc.

42] These testimonies state that by our own powers we cannot come to
Christ, but God must give us His Holy Ghost, by whom we are enlightened,
sanctified, and thus brought to Christ through faith, and kept with Him;
and no mention is made either of our will or cooperation.

No. He chose us. We did nothing.

I guess that Peter, under the inspiration of the Holy was wrong.

Acts 2:37-39
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" 38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
NKJV

As was Paul?

Rom 10:12-13
13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."
NKJV

Tj3,

If we could fully comprehend Him and how he acts, then He would no longer be an infinite God, but a God who was out equal.

I disagree. God is perfect, infinite and eternal in all His aspects. IF we could some how fully comprehend God we would still be mortals.

No matter how much knowledge we might be able to acquire we will still limited be morals.
So I do believe.
:)Peace and kindness,:)
Fred

Wondergirl,
Think about this.
You said "we chose Him"
(John 6:44): Jesus addressed the crowd, «No one can come to me unless he is drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise him up on the last day. It has been written in the Prophets: They shall all be taught by God. So whoever listens and learns from the Father comes to me.
It appears to me from that, that God The Father chose those who were or are to follow Jesus.
It also appears to me the due to our free will we could possibly chose not to follow our calling IF called by God to follow Jesus.
How do you think about that?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3,
I disagree. God is perfect, infinite and eternal in all His aspects. IF we could some how fully comprehend God we would still be mortals.

No matter how much knowledge we might be able to acquire we will still limited be morals.


Precisely.

Being mortal, being so finite and so constrained by the time space continuum means that we can never comprehend an infinite, eternal, omnipotent, omniscient being such as the one true God who created and holds heaven and earth in place.

I guess that Peter, under the inspiration of the Holy was wrong.

The Holy Spirit was already at work so Peter could repent. It was not Peter doing it.

See Post #161.

Your conclusion does not follow. If I buy a jar at the store, and put something in it, it does not follow that what I put in the jar was there before I bought it.

I am not sure what you are getting at.

Tj3
I hope you understand that there is a huge difference between a jar and our God who created everything and everything is inside Him.There are many verses that tells us that every believer in Christ becomes or at least should become like Christ.Christ is unlimited so through Him I see myself unlimited too!God sees me that way , He created me like Him.He calls me also god and if He calls me like that then no doubt , I AM !
And if I AM , I have no limits of any kind! I AM is the name of God and if I realize and confess that I AM , then I AM like Him! I can do everything through Christ like Paul says.
God introduces Himself to Moses saying '' I AM that I AM '' , and we have to remember on our side what WE ARE and WE ARE sons and daughters of the I AM .I AM is our Father and every father gives his name to his children, so if I AM is the name of our Father , then I AM is our name also, and I AM is not just a name or a title, but it is God Himself!
What would you think if I tell you that ''before Abraham was, I AM?''
I AM not flesh and blood, I AM so much more!

Wondergirl,
Think about this.
You said "we chose Him"
Where did I say that?

He created me like Him.He calls me also god
God created us in His image, which does not mean "like Him" meaning also gods. Where does God call us gods?

Wondergirl,
Oops, sorry.
I looked back on this thread and it was Tj3 who said that.
Fred

Wondergirl,
Oops, sorry.
I looked back on this thread and it was Tj3 who said that.
Fred
Thank you! I have always taken the stand that God has chosen us, not the other way around. God does all the work.

During the '80s, there was a bumper sticker, "I found God." Our minister always chuckled when he talked about it and said it should read just the opposite, "God found me."

God created us in His image, which does not mean "like Him" meaning also gods. Where does God call us gods?

Psalm 82: 6
John 10:34

Psalm 82: 6
John 10:34

John 10 refers to Psalm 82 which is a condemnation of those who try to exalt themselves and who judge others in an unjust and unfair manner.

Nowhere does scripture endorse the idea that men become gods.

The Holy Spirit was already at work so Peter could repent. It was not Peter doing it.

See Post #161.

So even when scripture says that WE must choose, you choose to interpret as meaning that we do not choose.

Tj3
I hope you understand that there is a huge difference between a jar and our God who created everything and everything is inside Him.

There is also nothing in scripture which suggests that we become in existence from eternity when we receive Christ as Saviour. That is neither scriptural nor logical.

So even when scripture says that WE must choose, you choose to interpret as meaning that we do not choose.
See Post #161. We do not choose to come to God. He has chosen us. Scripture does not ever say that we must choose, not with that level of meaning. (Yeah, yeah. I know you hate to think something is free, a gift, that you had nothing to do with getting it.)

John 10 refers to Psalm 82 ....

Exactly! This is the second testimony of what God says in Psalm 82 and as the law teaches it takes two witnesses to confirm every word,so Psalm 82 and John 10 are two witnesses that confirm the word!
If God says so , then it is so.I dare not add anything to that or take something out of that!

Nowhere does scripture endorse the idea that men become gods.
God Himself in Scripture in Psalm 82:6 clearly says '' I said , you are gods and sons of the Almighty '' and Jesus in John 10:34 repeats those same words testifying their truth!
I can see how our flesh blocks our view but we have to see things like God does!
If He says so , who am I to dissagree?
As for who chose who, it takes two witnesses to testify the truth , so yes God chose us and yes we chose God! We and God , two witnesses that confirm the truth!

There is also nothing in scripture which suggests that we become in existence from eternity when we receive Christ as Saviour. That is neither scriptural nor logical.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The Son is the firstborn among many breathren and those who are conformed in His image are forknown and predestinated and those God called and justified and glorified.All those verbs are in past tense , so how can God call, justify, glorify someone if that someone does not somehow exist?
All those who belong to Christ exist IN CHRIST!!
So yes it is Scriptural and yes it is logical , maybe some find it hard to believe but then again isn't it hard to believe that God became flesh and dwelt among us?

Furthermore...
Matthew 8:22 22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

How can a dead one bury someone else?But everyone who does not follow Christ is dead,or it is fair to say that those who follow Christ are alive.Those who do not follow Him do not exist, and those who do follow Him, exist!

To follow Christ is to exist and to exist is to be in His image and to be in His image is to be foreknown, predestinated, called, justified and glorified!
AMEN!!

We do not choose to come to God. He has chosen us. Scripture does not ever say that we must choose, not with that level of meaning.

I gave an example, but you told me that it doesn't mean what it says.


(Yeah, yeah. I know you hate to think something is free, a gift, that you had nothing to do with getting it.)

It is indeed free, but like any other gift that is indeed free, we can accept or reject it.

God Himself in Scripture in Psalm 82:6 clearly says '' I said , you are gods and sons of the Almighty '' and Jesus in John 10:34 repeats those same words testifying their truth!
I can see how our flesh blocks our view but we have to see things like God does!
If He says so , who am I to dissagree?
As for who chose who, it takes two witnesses to testify the truth , so yes God chose us and yes we chose God! We and God , two witnesses that confirm the truth!

Read Psalm 82. These "gods" are unjust judges who judge falsely, do not understand, walk around in darkness and die like men.

Is that the type of "god" that you want to be?

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Foreknowledge (free will) and predestination are both true. Did you read what I said earlier regarding my position?

It is indeed free, but like any other gift that is indeed free, we can accept or reject it.
Nope! Even our accepting is by the power of the Holy Spirit. We can only reject of our own free will.

Nope! Even our accepting is by the power of the Holy Spirit. We can only reject of our own free will.

Wondergirl,

I offer one suggestion that perhaps can show what is meant. The free gift was grace, also known as God's love. So it is the free gift of love that the Father has sent to us which does give us salvation to life eternal. NOW refer: Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

John 10 refers to Psalm 82 which is a condemnation of those who try to exalt themselves and who judge others in an unjust and unfair manner.

Nowhere does scripture endorse the idea that men become gods.

True, but I believe what is being said is that Christ dwells within us, and we in HIM.
Once you have accepted baptism in newness of life, as scripture references, you then are a temple and holy. Be ye holy for I am Holy. This goes into the meat of righteousness and further given if God is willing. It is a measure of gift offered accordance to the Will of God.

In the likenss of the Holy Spirit, just as Genesis 1:26 shown that Christ and The Father are connected.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Wondergirl,

I offer one suggestion that perhaps can show what is meant. The free gift was grace, also known as God's love. So it is the free gift of love that the Father has sent to us which does give us salvation to life eternal. NOW refer: Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
That's later, after the Holy Spirit has worked faith in us and we have become one of God's own again. God will always open the door when any of His own knock.

That's later, after the Holy Spirit has worked faith in us and we have become one of God's own again. God will always open the door when any of His own knock.

Then perhaps you must refer: Matthew13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

I just offered it as seed that we are by choice of free will on the other thread. It can be the experiences of life that builds our fruitful or unfruitful life

Nope! Even our accepting is by the power of the Holy Spirit. We can only reject of our own free will.

You keep telling me that, but that is not in scripture. Let me give you an example of where following God is specifically called a choice - Joshua 24:22.

True, but I believe what is being said is that Christ dwells within us, and we in HIM.
Once you have accepted baptism in newness of life, as scripture references, you then are a temple and holy. Be ye holy for I am Holy. This goes into the meat of righteousness and further given if God is willing. It is a measure of gift offered accordance to the Will of God.

In the likenss of the Holy Spirit, just as Genesis 1:26 shown that Christ and The Father are connected.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

True - but God remains God and we remain men. Scripture only speaks of Jesus as the Son of God, not us. We are called adopted sons, and the important difference is that a son by adoption receives the benefits of a son by nature, but never become a physicl son by nature.

Thus, though we can be adopted by God as sons, we will never become divine, we will never becomes gods.

Let me give you an example of where following God is specifically called a choice - Joshua 24:22.

That's not what I am talking about. The "choosing" in Joshua is AFTER the Holy Spirit has worked faith. Here Joshua is choosing up sides for the Lord, sort of like a baseball game except this is choose the true God or false ones. The people being asked were already God's.

Initially, we are dead in sin.

1 Cor. 2:14 -- The natural man receiveth not (or, as the Greek word properly signifies, grasps not, comprehends not, accepts not) the things of the Spirit, that is, he is not capable of spiritual things; for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them.

Rom. 8:7 -- The carnal mind, or the mind of the natural man, is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can be.

John 15:5 -- Without Me ye can do nothing.

Phil. 2:13 -- It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Phil. 1:29 -- For unto you it is given, in behalf of Christ, not only to believe on Him.

Eph. 2:8 -- It is the gift of God.

John 6:29 -- This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.

Ezek. 11:19 -- He takes away the hard heart of stone, and gives a new tender heart of flesh, that we may walk in His commands.

Eph. 2:10 -- He creates us in Christ Jesus to good works.

2 Cor. 5:17 -- He makes us new creatures.

John 6:44 -- No one can come to Christ unless the Father draw him.
1 Cor. 12:3 -- No one can call Christ Lord except by the Holy Ghost.

True - but God remains God and we remain men. Scripture only speaks of Jesus as the Son of God, not us. We are called adopted sons, and the important difference is that a son by adoption receives the benefits of a son by nature, but never become a physicl son by nature.

Thus, though we can be adopted by God as sons, we will never become divine, we will never becomes gods.

True- we are called to be children of God but there is only "ONE begotten Son of God"

That's not what I am talking about. The "choosing" in Joshua is AFTER the Holy Spirit has worked faith. Here Joshua is choosing up sides for the Lord, sort of like a baseball game except this is choose the true God or false ones. The people being asked were already God's.

Not true. It is asking people to make a real choice between the true God and false gods. Look at the choice that they were asked to make:

Josh 24:14-16
14 "Now therefore, fear the LORD, serve Him in sincerity and in truth, and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the River and in Egypt. Serve the LORD! 15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
NKJV



Initially, we are dead in sin.

1 Cor. 2:14 -- The natural man receiveth not (or, as the Greek word properly signifies, grasps not, comprehends not, accepts not) the things of the Spirit, that is, he is not capable of spiritual things; for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them.

Rom. 8:7 -- The carnal mind, or the mind of the natural man, is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can be.

John 15:5 -- Without Me ye can do nothing.

Phil. 2:13 -- It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Phil. 1:29 -- For unto you it is given, in behalf of Christ, not only to believe on Him.

Eph. 2:8 -- It is the gift of God.

John 6:29 -- This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.

Ezek. 11:19 -- He takes away the hard heart of stone, and gives a new tender heart of flesh, that we may walk in His commands.

Eph. 2:10 -- He creates us in Christ Jesus to good works.

2 Cor. 5:17 -- He makes us new creatures.

John 6:44 -- No one can come to Christ unless the Father draw him.
1 Cor. 12:3 -- No one can call Christ Lord except by the Holy Ghost.

I agree with all of this. Where is the verse which says that we make no decision?

I agree with all of this. Where is the verse which says that we make no decision?
How about "it's a gift"? Do you help choose a gift someone gives you? If you help in the decision-making process, is it still a gift?

How about "Cor. 12:3 -- No one can call Christ Lord except by the Holy Ghost"?

How about "it's a gift"? Do you help choose a gift someone gives you? If you help in the decision-making process, is it still a gift?

Yes, it is a gift, but do you know anyone who "forces" a gift on you? If a person chooses to reject a gift, will you demand that they accept it, will you force them?

A gift is not a gift if it is forced on a person against their will.


How about "Cor. 12:3 -- No one can call Christ Lord except by the Holy Ghost"?

Where did I say that the Holy Spirit did not play a part? Indeed I have stated that the Holy Spirit is essential very frequently.

Yes, it is a gift, but do you know anyone who "forces" a gift on you? If a person chooses to reject a gift, will you demand that they accept it, will you force them?
If you feel God forces this gift on you, you can say no, thank you.

A gift is not a gift if it is forced on a person against their will.
Exactly.

Where did I say that the Holy Spirit did not play a part? Indeed I have stated that the Holy Spirit is essential very frequently.
The Holy Spirit did it ALL!

If you feel God forces this gift on you, you can say no, thank you.

Precisely. So we can accept Jesus as Saviour or Reject. We have choice and freewill.

Precisely. So we can accept Jesus as Saviour or Reject. We have choice and freewill.
We do nothing to accept. After the Holy Spirit has worked faith in your heart, you have done nothing except will have the right to say no.

We do nothing to accept. After the Holy Spirit has worked faith in your heart, you have done nothing except will have the right to say no.

If you can say no, you can say yes.

If you can say no, you can say yes.
Nope. If you say yes, you are doing work toward your own salvation, and that takes you down the same road of those you disagree with who espouse work righteousness.

Nope. If you say yes, you are doing work toward your own salvation, and that takes you down the same road of those you disagree with who espouse work righteousness.

Accepting a free gift is not work by any definition.

But once again, let's go by what scripture says. Let me ask you again for where scripture says that we cannot choose to accept God.

Accepting a free gift is not work by any definition.
Of course it is. It is an effort on your part which then lessens the work of the Holy Spirit.

But once again, let's go by what scripture says. Let me ask you again for where scripture says that we cannot choose to accept God.
I gave you multiple references that say it is purely God's work, the work of His Holy Spirit.

Accepting a free gift is not work by any definition.
You lift your arm and hold out your hand to accept? That's work. (General Science 101)

Even good ol' Catholic monk/priest Luther figured it out and wrote, “I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith... ”

Of course it is. It is an effort on your part which then lessens the work of the Holy Spirit.

No effort, but rather following God's command.


I gave you multiple references that say it is purely God's work, the work of His Holy Spirit.

I saw none that said that we cannot make a choice.

You lift your arm and hold out your hand to accept? That's work. (General Science 101)

Saying "yes" is not work.

Adam,
I agree with you on this.
Also wuth wondergirl that Jesus said that no one comes to Him unless chosen by the Father.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Even good ol' Catholic monk/priest Luther figured it out and wrote, “I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith....”

I never said that we leave the Holy Spirit out of it.

I never said that we leave the Holy Spirit out of it.
The Holy Spirit is ALL of it.

Saying "yes" is not work.
Saying yes is participating in your own salvation.

No effort, but rather following God's command.
When lost in sin we cannot comprehend any command of God.

I saw none that said that we cannot make a choice.
I'm sorry. Please read them over again.

When lost in sin we cannot comprehend any command of God.

Even without the help of the Holy Spirit?


I'm sorry. Please read them over again.

I did - it's not there.

Saying yes is participating in your own salvation.

It is accepting the free gift.

Even known anyone who thought that accepting a gift was too much effort?

The Holy Spirit is ALL of it.

You keep telling that we cannot accept Jesus, but will never show me where scripture says that.

Even without the help of the Holy Spirit?
When lost in sin we cannot comprehend any command of God -- we need the Holy Spirit.

I did - it's not there.
Yes, it is -- they are.

When lost in sin we cannot comprehend any command of God -- we need the Holy Spirit.

Agreed - we need the Holy Spirit to be able to comprehend God's commands regarding accepting the free gift of salvation.


Yes, it is -- they are.

I do not doubt that you believe that to be true.

Agreed - we need the Holy Spirit to be able to comprehend God's commands regarding accepting the free gift of salvation.
It is not our accepting, but the Spirit's accepting for us, since we are lost in the morass of sin and are totally incapable of acting for ourselves.

It is not our accepting, but the Spirit's accepting for us, since we are lost in the morass of sin and are totally incapable of acting for ourselves.

Okay, once again, where does scripture say that we cannot accept for ourselves?

Okay, once again, where does scripture say that we cannot accept for ourselves?
Which post was that? #161? I am not going to reprint it here.

Which post was that? #161? I am not going to reprint it here.

We already discussed that one - there is no such verse there.

Acts 2:40-42
40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation." 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. 4
NKJV

My view is that...
Practicing ones faith Is a work in progress.
Fred

We already discussed that one - there is no such verse there.
YOU said that. I didn't. There are several there, very explicit.


Acts 2:40-42
40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation." 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. 4
NKJV
By the grace of the Holy Spirit already working faith in their hearts, they were able to speak acceptance.

YOU said that. I didn't. There are several there, very explicit.

I read them all. I see none that say anything remotely like that. You can keep claiming that they exist, but what I would suggest is pick the one that you think is the strongest argument and let's look at it.


By the grace of the Holy Spirit already working faith in their hearts, they were able to speak acceptance.

Agreed. So with the help of the Holy Spirit, they freely accepted the gift of salvation.

I read them all. I see none that say anything remotely like that. You can keep claiming that they exist, but what I would suggest is pick the one that you think is the strongest argument and let's look at it.
Give me a break! I refuse to wander down this same-old same-old road with you just because you refuse to give in.

Agreed. So with the help of the Holy Spirit, they freely accepted the gift of salvation.
The Holy Spirit working in their hearts enabled them to accept.

Here's another one:

John 16:7-10 (New International Version) 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;

Give me a break! I refuse to wander down this same-old same-old road with you just because you refuse to give in.

I won't give in solely because you say so. I base my views on scripture. If you want to convince me, scripture is the way.



The Holy Spirit working in their hearts enabled them to accept.

Agreed. So it is both true that it is a work of the Holy Spirit, and an acceptance by the person.

Are you happy that we can agree on this?


Here's another one:

John 16:7-10 (New International Version) 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;

I fully believe and agree with all that it says. But nowhere does that say that we cannot decide to accept Him as Saviour.

I won't give in solely because you say so. I base my views on scripture. If you want to convince me, scripture is the way.
Been there, done that.

Are you happy that we can agree on this?
I don't think we are there yet.

Been there, done that.

Fine - if you don't wish to respond to the request, that is you choice.


I don't think we are there yet.

Really? I thought that we both agreed that the Holy Spirit working on the heart of the unsaved gave them the freedom to accept the free gift of salvation.

Fine - if you don't wish to respond to the request, that is you choice.
LOL -- cute. Post #161.

Really? I thought that we both agreed that the Holy Spirit working on the heart of the unsaved gave them the freedom to accept the free gift of salvation.
You must be an Arminian. They say everyone has enough grace to accept Christ if he wants to.

From theology.edu --

Efficacious grace is given to a person when the Lord brings that one to himself. It is the ministry of the Holy Spirit which is certainly effectual in revealing the Gospel and in leading to saving faith. (Ephesians 2:8-9). Efficacious grace secures the salvation of the one who has been chosen by God. It is the instantaneous work of God empowering the human will and inclining the human heart to faith in Christ. It is irresistable (Romans 9:19 and John 3:8). Once God has determined that a person will belong to him, that person will no longer be able to resist the call.

Arminism (Wikipedia) -- "Man has free will to respond or resist: Free will is limited by God's sovereignty, but God's sovereignly allows all men the choice to accept the Gospel of Jesus through faith, simultaneously allowing all men to resist."

I guess you are just another one of those work-righteousness types, part of that gang.

More from mountainretreatorg.net --

One author summed up Arminian thinking as follows,"....God was made dependent on free-will-equipped-men for whom He politely had to wait, looking to see whether the man would be so kind as to believe."

Though the Reformers of the early 16th Century did not have to contend with Arminianism as such, since Arminianism arose late in the 16th century and early in the 17th century, they did have to contend with its theological cousin, Semi-Pelagianism. Semi-Pelagianism teaches that man is spiritually sick. As such he does need the help of God's grace in order to get better. However, it is up to man to take the spiritual medicine which God offers. God must have man's cooperation. In theological terms this was called "synergism." You can see the similarity to the Arminian position. The Reformers responded to this by stressing the sovereign grace of God, as heard in the cry "Sola gratia." God calls those dead in sin to new life (see Eph. 2:1-10). The Reformers stressed the helplessness of man in sin and the sovereignty of God in grace. This was a point of unity between the Reformers despite differences about other issues. In the Book "The Bondage of the Will" this was the point that Luther argued with Erasmus.

We should note then that Arminianism is a reincarnation of Semi-Pelagianism with its emphasis on man's freedom. This explains why the churches acted so resolutely with respect to Arminianism. They saw it as a serious threat to the gospel and condemned it "as being in principle a return to Rome (because in effect it turned faith into a meritorious work) and a betrayal of the Reformation (because it denied the sovereignty of God in saving sinners, which was the deepest religious and theological principle of the Reformer's thought). Arminianism was, indeed, in Reformed eyes a renunciation of New Testament Christianity in favour of New Testament Judaism; for to rely on oneself for faith is no different in principle from relying on oneself for works, and the one is as un-Christian and anti-Christian as the other."

Arminianism, in typical Semi-Pelagian style, teaches self-help religion. It is sovereign God versus sovereign man. It is indeed the different gospel which Paul warned about. It is appealing because it extols the dignity of man. It is a lie because man is dead in sin, totally helpless.

LOL -- cute. Post #161.

Unless you changed the post, it is still not there and won't magically appear because you want it to.


You must be an Arminian. They say everyone has enough grace to accept Christ if he wants to.

I did not say that. I said something much different. I said that the work of the Holy Spirit is essential for a person to accept Jesus as Saviour, and we agree on that point, so you must also be an Arminian, if you say that I am.

Perhaps rather than getting into labeling or name-calling to mis-represent me, why don't you deal with what I am actually saying?

Wondergirl and Tj3.
From the New Jerusalem Bible
"John 6: 44. `No one can come to me
unless drawn by the Father who sent me,
and I will raise that person up on the last day.
45. It is written in the prophets:
They will all be taught by God;
everyone who has listened to the Father,
and learnt from him, comes to me."
It appears to me that it is The Father who brings people and their soles to Jesus.
I accepted that calling long ago.
What say you now?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Wondergirl and Tj3.
From the New Jerusalem Bible
"John 6: 44. `No one can come to me
unless drawn by the Father who sent me,
and I will raise that person up on the last day.
45. It is written in the prophets:
They will all be taught by God;
everyone who has listened to the Father,
and learnt from him, comes to me."
It appears to me that it is The Father who brings people and their soles to Jesus.
I accepted that calling long ago.
What say you now?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

First I say, let's go to a better translation:

John 6:44-46
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
NKJV

Second, I say that I agree entirely - I said that all along. There is both the necessarily work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the person, and the necessary acceptance of Jesus as Saviour. Scripture teaches both.

Tj3,
Thanks.
But I do not see or agree that what you posted is a BETTER translation.
I think the NJB is one of the best.
Fred

Wondergirl and Tj3.
From the New Jerusalem Bible
"John 6: 44. `No one can come to me
unless drawn by the Father who sent me,
and I will raise that person up on the last day.
45. It is written in the prophets:
They will all be taught by God;
everyone who has listened to the Father,
and learnt from him, comes to me."
It appears to me that it is The Father who brings people and their soles to Jesus.
I accepted that calling long ago.
What say you now?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Nicely said Fred

2 Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through
1.sanctification of the Spirit
And
2.belief of the truth:

2 Th 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. KJV

Tj3,
Thanks.
But I do not see or agree that what you posted is a BETTER translation.
I think the NJB is one of the best.
Fred

You are, of course, welcome to your opinion. We have seen some passages that you have posted in the past from the NJB where it ignored the Greek in favour of a particular theology, but that approach may be favoured by some people.

The NKJV sticks more closely to what the Greek text says and that is the reason for my preference for it. But nonetheless, that is not the topic of this thread. What is determined to be better will depend upon what a specific person desires from their translation.

sndbay,
Thank you.
Fred

Read Psalm 82. These "gods" are unjust judges who judge falsely, do not understand, walk around in darkness and die like men.

Is that the type of "god" that you want to be?

Psalm 82
1God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

2How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

3Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

8Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Notice that in the Greek text v.7 says '' but you die like men'' and not ''you will die like men''and that in v.6 God says '' I have said .. ''
It is very clear that God said '' you are gods '' and it is very clear that we choose to die like men by not judging the way God wants us to! I want to be what God wants me to be!
It won't hurt you for once if you say that you are wrong Tom!

You keep telling me that, but that is not in scripture. Let me give you an example of where following God is specifically called a choice - Joshua 24:22.

Your attitude reminds me so much of the following...
Luke 13:14 And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day.

15The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his from the stall, and lead him away to watering?

16And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?

And of the following

John 20: 25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

26And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

You fail to see all those things that are called the Spirit of the law(Scripture) and you only believe what is called the letter of the law .Be careful , because that was exactly what the Pharisses and the scribes were doing.
Yes , you use Scripture , but so did the Pharissees and the scribes and so does the devil!
In the name of Jesus Christ , this spirit is a wicked one and you have to realize that.

Psalm 82
1God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

2How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

3Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

8Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Notice that in the Greek text v.7 says '' but you die like men'' and not ''you will die like men''and that in v.6 God says '' I have said ..''
It is very clear that God said '' you are gods '' and it is very clear that we choose to die like men by not judging the way God wants us to! I want to be what God wants me to be!
It won't hurt you for once if you say that you are wrong Tom!

Why should I say that I was wrong - there is absolutely nothing in Psalm 82 which endorses the belief that men are gods. It condemns the belief from start to finish, and nowhere in scripture will you find any endorsement of such a teaching.

I note that your primary approach now is to attack me as a person, but that does nothing to support your position either.

I note that your primary approach now is to attack me as a person, but that does nothing to support your position either.

Not you Tom , just your way of thinking!

adam7gur,
I agree with you 100% on that.
Tom is and has often used and read Scripture they way he wants it to be rather than what it really says.
That's very typical of the fundamentalist way.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Not you Tom , just your way of thinking!

I will not apologize for refusing to go beyond what God's word says. Now if you want to convince me of your interpretation, get into scripture rather than attacking the person.

Not you Tom , just your way of thinking!

I agree that we are all God's within our right as we where created in the Creators image

lighterrr
Help me understand better.
Do you mean God's or gods?

Fred
I have seen this happening many times and it is not the person that annoys me , but the behavior.I myself am no better than Tom or anyone else but ''am I my brother's keeper?'' , yes I am and so are you and everyone.
If you help me see something wrong inside me , I will be thankfull.
May God bless you my brother, and Tom and everyone!

God Himself in Scripture in Psalm 82:6clearly says '' I said , you are gods and sons of the Almighty '' and Jesus in John 10:34 repeats those same words testifying their truth!


adam7gur,

With a heart of love for God, and the hope of doing HIS will, I believe the teaching of Psalm 82:6 is concerning those who represent God's Will in the judgement over evil to provide justice to mankind.

The scripture verse of John 10:34 is teaching a detail fact concerning the will of God. (Note Jesus said verse 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

When we read in verse (35 NOTE:If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken) Here Jesus brings this to their attention because He wants them to realize that HE, HIMSELF does the will of HIS Father to show conviction, and fulfillment to the WORD of God, that was sent, as verse 34 said, unto whom the word came / representing the Father's Will coming to who He has called upon to judge His people.
Christ always did HIS Father's Will! And also shows how we should follow Christ, and acknowledge the truth in confessed belief that Christ is the begotten Son of God. WE are servants set free to do as Christ did in the Father's Will, because the word comes to us as servants representing the Will of our Father.

Reference: Ex 22:28 shows the gods, are as the rules representiing God in judgement of the people.

So going back to Psalms 82 God has made it clear that He has judge those who are gods, and God is finding fault in how they are judging HIS people. Verse 82:3 goes to says how God's will is that they judge the poor, fatherless in justice of their own needs. God's will is that the judges representing HIM, will do HIS will to rid the people out of the hands of wickedness.

Psalms 82:7 says they shall die like men and fall like princes so please refer: Numbers 16:2

Reminding ourselves always: But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. (Luke 6:35-36)

Fred
I have seen this happening many times and it is not the person that annoys me , but the behavior.I myself am no better than Tom or anyone else but ''am I my brother's keeper?'' , yes I am and so are you and everyone.
If you help me see something wrong inside me , I will be thankfull.
May God bless you my brother, and Tom and everyone!

Again, if adhering to scripture annoys you, that is not my problem.

Secondly, you may not have noticed, but there have been a large number of threads shut down for people going after other people rather than adhering to the topic, and if you continue, I fear that this thread may have the same fate. If you don't like me - that is too bad, stay with the topic.

Ps 82
God stands in the congregation of the mighty;
He judges among the gods.

So far so good...

2 How long will you judge unjustly,
And show partiality to the wicked?
Selah

Thses gods judge unjustly and favour the wicked! Are these sanctified persons, or is this an endorsement of these "gods"?

3 Defend the poor and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy;
Free them from the hand of the wicked.

God tells them what they need to do, which suggests that they are currently doing none of the above or God would not need to mention it.

5 They do not know, nor do they understand;
They walk about in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are unstable.

They do not understand, they are unstable and walk around in darkness. Are these sanctified persons, or is this an endorsement of these "gods"?

6 I said, "You are gods,
And all of you are children of the Most High.

Next God tells us how he will judge these "You are gods,
And all of you are children of the Most High.

Next God tells us how he will judge these "...

7 But you shall die like men,
And fall like one of the princes."
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
For You shall inherit all nations.
NKJV

Where is the endorsement of the belief that men are gods? Are these the type of giods that men desire to become:

- Unjust
- wicked
- unstable
- lacking understanding
- unstable
- walk in darkness

Further, I note the use of John 10:34 previous by those defending this belief. Please note that in John 10:26, we are told something else about these "...........

7 But you shall die like men,
And fall like one of the princes."

John 10:26-28
26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
NKJV

These "gods" are not saved, and do not follow Jesus.

Hardly an endorsement. Jesus is condemning them by reference to Ps 82, as unjust judges.

I agree that we are all God's within our right as we where created in the Creators image

Off thread...

The image of God is righteousness, It is an evident idenity of 3 that are righteous. (Genesis 1:26 plural in our, and in likeness in spirit.) Father... SON... Holy Spirit...

We have been sent the Word as a calling to that righteousness. That Word was made flesh to show us the way. God gave all power and dominion to HIS begotten Son, Christ Jesus, because when mankind was created, they were given dominion over this earth, "HOWEVER" they were beguided by satan and fell to wickness. (mankind then was no longer in the image of God)

Christ set us free from that curse, HIS blood paid the price and gives us grace/love from Our Father to follow HIS WORD, HIS WILL in HIS SON = EMMANUEL

Free choice to answer that calling, and come to the WORD profitable in godliness.

Be ye holy for I am HOLY (1 Peter 1:16)

lighterrr
Help me understand better.
Do you mean God's or gods?

God. Singular, I meant to say that god lives within us. So every human being has the spirit of the almighty God dwelling within.