The test I'm talking about is the attempted hijacking of the Maersk Alabama,an American flagged ship, by jihadists pirates.

So far hijacking off the Somali coast has been a pretty good business. Nations have paid ransom (tribute) to retrieve vessels to the tune of $150 million from 150 ships in 2008.

But a US ship had not been the target. The first thing that was different this time was that the unarmed crew fought back capturing one of the pirates and making him their prisoner .(arming the crew of a commercial ship is discouraged by international law)The next thing that was different was that the captain of the Maersk Alabama ;Richard Phillips,showed courage and honor ,traded his safety by offered himself up as a prisoner to save the crew. The pirates renaged on a swap deal and Phillips is still a prisoner.Ken Quinn, the second mate on the ship, told CNN. They eventually released the pirate in an attempted hostage exchange. “We returned him but they didn't return the captain.”

The Maersk Alabama had been bound for the Kenyan port of Mombasa and was carrying food and other agricultural materials for the World Food Program, a United Nations agency, and other clients, including the United States Agency for International Development.

The pirates put Phillips on a dinghy and fled until their boat ran out of fuel .

The President's response so far has been strong. He has not gone crying to the UN . He instead ordered the USS Bainbridge to go after them . The guided-missile frigate USS Haliburton is also on hand .He has FBI hostage negotiators there telling the pirates that their only chance of survival is to release Phillips. No ransoms; no bargains, no surrender is on the table. The threat of force is real and credible. If there are to be negotiations they will be conducted from a position of strength .

He has not held phony gratuitous press conferences and has refused to answer reporter's questions.

The U.S. military has been defending civilian shipping from pirates since the Barbary Wars two centuries ago, and one of its missions is to keep the sea lanes open for U.S. flagged vessels.


I pray for success but what is clear is that jihadists pirates ,terrorists,dictators will have to consider our actions in this situation in their future calculations . The President must continue his strong response and not weaken.

I would go after them from Underwater.
Save the Captain and his Ship.
Good Luck.

If there are to be negotiations they will be conducted from a position of strength .

Absolutely. Let's hope Obama continues this course. The captain apparently tried to escape but was recaptured.

Stratmando, I can envision a few Seals overtaking them from underneath the vessel.

So far Obama is passing this test .
Hello tom:

Wow! Walking softly and carrying a big stick... Where did he ever come up with that?

excon

That was speak softly... the oft quoted proverb by Teddy Roosevelt explaining his foreign policy. As you know ,there was a big emphasis on the stick part of Teddy's thinking .

This is ongoing and so far the President has not taken a misstep . I can't say the same for his Sec State Evita ,

"I think Morocco was the very first country that recognized us, going back a long time. We worked to end piracy off the coast of Morocco all those years ago. And we are going to work together to end that kind of criminal activity anywhere on the high seas"
CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Hillary Clinton « - Blogs from CNN.com (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/category/presidential-candidates/hillary-clinton/)

Her cackling response is goofy . We took unilateral action to defeat the Barbary pirates ,and taking unilateral action is what is called for now.

Or the goofball in the Senate John Kerry who has been walking and speaking today in a more typical Democrat way.
"These acts of piracy off of Somalia's coastline may seem surreal, but they're all too real and a thorough policy debate is long overdue,"
TheHill.com - Kerry calls for pirate hearings as drama continues (http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/kerry-calls-for-pirate-hearings-as-drama-continues-2009-04-09.html)

What is to debate ?

As for the President . I will be less than satisfied if these pirates are alive at the end of this .

You have to understand something .This is the type of response I was expecting :

Good evening. As you know, early yesterday, Somali-based pirates attacked the Maersk Alabama, a freighter carrying relief supplies to Kenya. While we do not yet know all the details, the Alabama's crew re-took control of the vessel and forced the pirates off the ship.

Since the pirates are still holding the captain, I have sent FBI negotiators to facilitate his safe and speedy release. I assure his friends and family that I will not stop until this man-made disaster is resolved in a peaceful, tolerant and ecologically-sound manner.

Obviously, this incident has raised many concerns among Americans. There have been calls for justice and even violence against the misguided perpetrators. But such an emotional reaction has led to the disparagement of entire groups with which we are unfamiliar. We have seen this throughout history.

For too long, America has been too dismissive of the proud culture and invaluable contributions of the Pirate Community. Whether it is their pioneering work with prosthetics, husbandry of tropical birds or fanciful fashion sense, America owes a deep debt to Pirates.

The past eight years have shown a failure to appreciate the historic role of these noble seafarers. Instead of celebrating their entreprenuerial spirit and seeking to partner with them to meet common challenges, there have been times where America has shown arrogance and been dismissive, even derisive.

Some of us wonder if our current Overseas Contingency Operation would even be needed had the last administration not been so quick to label Pirates as "thieves," "terrorists" and worse. Such swashbucklaphobia can lead to tragic results, as we have seen this week.

To address this issue, I have instructed Vice President Joe Biden to create a cabinet-level Czar of Pirate Outreach and Buccaneer Interrelation. In addition, June 1-7 has been designated as Pirate Awareness Week, during which all federal buildings will fly the Jolly Roger and sponsor sensitivity training. Thankfully, my American Recovery and Reinvestment Act will fund free grog and hard tack for all attendees.

Finally, to all pirates listening to international broadcasts, shortwave services and ship-to-shore radio, let me say this:

Ahoy, me regret arr relationship has set sail in a scurvy manner. Arr people share many mutual 'alues and concerns on t' raging main. Perchance, could ye handsomely release the cap'n o' the ship and I assure that no harm will come t' ye or ye hearties. Let us smite t' reset button and launch our seabond on a new pegleg. Savvy? Godspeed t' ye and t' ye beauties. Aye, me parrot concurs.
Exurban League: Obama Reaches Out to 'Moderate' Pirate Community (http://exurbanleague.com/2009/04/09/obama-issues-statement-on-the-pirate-attack.aspx)

The first thing that was different this time was that the unarmed crew fought back capturing one of the pirates and making him their prisoner .(arming the crew of a commercial ship is discouraged by international law)The next thing that was different was that the captain of the Maersk Alabama ;Richard Phillips,showed courage and honor ,traded his safety by offered himself up as a prisoner to save the crew. The pirates renaged on a swap deal and Phillips is still a prisoner.Ken Quinn, the second mate on the ship, told CNN. They eventually released the pirate in an attempted hostage exchange. “We returned him but they didn’t return the captain.”

.

This guy is a hero ! Prayers for him and the men and women who will take part in his rescue.






G&P

Please answer this one:

YouTube - Clinton: World must end 'scourge' of piracy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMDvOfIzGek)

Why is Hillary laughing punch drunk, when there were 21 lives at stake, as she talks about this?
I thought that lefties were so concerned about even one life being lost at war and here she is laughing on the topic of these Americans being hijacked. :eek:

The waters off Somalia are well known for it's pirates. Pirates have been using those waters for years. Unfortunately it is against the law for cargo ships to be armed with anything larger than a bread knife. The crews are left literally defenseless to these kinds of boardings and take overs. Lately there has not been much sea traffic of ships going anywhere. Most ships are either in harbors, anchored out somewhere, or they are either empty or stuck with loads they cannot get rid of as the shipment was cancelled after they were underway. The specific area in question was traveled the day before by a good sized cargo vessel owned by a friend of mine. He observed these same guys and immediately clocked them to be amateurs as they did not give back the appropriate hand signal that he gave. They were more afraid of him on deck with his dreadlocks and waving a machete in the air then he was of them. He's experienced in repelling pirates. Not too long ago the ship successfully fended off at least 6 pirate attempts within a 8 month period. That area off Somalia and areas near Thailand and Cambodia are some of the worst pirate infested waters you could want. Apparently the captain and crew did not use any anti-pirate methods against an attack such as electric deck fence (works great I'm told) or the use of high powered water hoses. Pirates can be repelled but you need to know the techniques involved to legally do it. I hope there is a happy resolution to this horrible mess and the captain is unharmed.

I also hear that a sonic blast from a "long-range acoustic device" is very effective . But that would be torture I guess.
Part of the reason the crew was successful to a degree was that this was an American crew. Often freigter crews are a mixed nationality ,recruited from nations like the Philippines,Thailand etc .

A Chinese crew recently repelled an attack using molotov coctails. But I think to defeat the pirates ;like 200 years ago when the marines marched to the Tripoli city of Derna... and Lieutenant Stephen Decatur led the marines in the captured of the USS Intrepid ;the battle has to be taken to the pirate land bases.

Why is Hillary laughing punch drunk, when there were 21 lives at stake, as she talks about this?

Yeah I alluded to this without providing the video. It is bizarre. Besides the fact that Morocco has nothing to do with the current incident; her cackle is just inappropriate and irresponible. I wonder how the family of Captain Richard Phillips feels about the unseriousness of her reply.

She is also plain wrong about the facts. Barbary Pirates were defeated by Thomas Jefferson who refused to pay tribute to them. "Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute" was the slogan that Robert Goodloe Harper ,Chairman of the Committee on Ways and Means said at the time. Pirates weren't considered "criminals " .Pirates were considered enemies and terrorists to be defeated and hung if captured.Piracy is not "criminal activity " it is war .

Besides the fact that Morroco has nothing to do with the current incident; her cackle is just inappropriate and irresponible. I wonder how the family of Captain Richard Phillips feels about the unseriousness of her reply.

She is also plain wrong about the facts. Barbary Pirates were defeated by Thomas Jefferson who refused to pay tribute to them..



YEAH EXACTLY
The left at their very best in all their forms from do as I say not as I do to revising history!:rolleyes:

YEAH EXACTLY
The left at their very best in all their forms from do as I say not as I do to revising history!:rolleyes:Who is one person that exemplifies all the characteristics of the righties?

I don't like most righties either but I don't see them revising history to the point it doesn't make sense. I don't see righties demanding that lefties go to jail or be kicked out of office for their misdeeds. All you have to do is look at all the righties that got the book thrown at them for doing less than William Jefferson or the sex scandals of the politians. Who gets off with a slap on the wrist and who gets media bashing them endlessly?
I was against much of what Bush did. I did not even care for Bush.

I believe the reason my friend's cargo vessel was not boarded was due to the fact they were not flying an American flag and an African person was on deck clashing two machetes together above his head.

Most crewmembers on cargo ships are from many different lands. Russian, Japanese, Chinese, European, African, Jamaican, and some Americans are the usual crew make up. They are not all strictly one nationality or another as just about any nationality are seamen.

There is a growing need for the shipping industry to revamp their maritime laws to protect the seamen from pirates. Pirates can and will be dispatched into the sea and a lot of times without benefit of a life vest or raft or boat of any sort for the sharks to have fun with.

There is much less shipping going on due to the economy now and the pirates are coming out of the woodwork to prey upon the ships. Most pirates just overtake a vessel and dispatch the crew over the side into the water without life vest or boat. Holding vessels for ransom is a stupid way of making money. As I said before, those pirates are strict amateurs or this is a staged piracy act as real pirates do not bother ransoming a vessel. They just steal the vessel, have it repainted (the name part that is) and then use it for themselves to carry cargo. They also get new ownership paperwork issued as well on the vessel. It's done every day.

That whole incident is wrong in too many ways to be legit.

That means you have not been following the news off the Somali coast . This has been a thing going on for a few years and the pattern there is not the same as what is typical say in the Malacca Straits.

This link has a partial list of only the biggest vessels being held hostage in the city of Eyl .
FOXNews.com - Somali Pirates Keep Hundreds of Hostages in Pirate City of Eyl - International News | News of the World | Middle East News | Europe News (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,454124,00.html)

YouTube - The Pirates Of Somalia - Somalia (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSP9a1VMQCk)

As I pointed out in my posting last year $150million was paid in ransom so it may be strictly amateurish as you say ;but it is lucrative.

I fault the so called "international communities " ineffectiveness for the lame response . As ususal the US will have to take the lead... although the French yesterday did the right thing yesterday in freeing a yacht.
French free sailboat from pirates near Somalia; one hostage dies | News for Dallas, Texas | Dallas Morning News | Headline | International News (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/world/stories/DN-piracyfrance_11int.ART.State.Edition1.4ac80ef.html )

In past times, attack against an American ship was an act of WAR.

As of just a few minutes ago, Obama has not hinted at what his response will be. This is a BIGGIE for him. What I mean is even though we have ships there, it seems no promise or ultamatum has been given.

We await and pray for this brave captain.

While the President peruses useful DVDs to show during his pizza parties he should rent John Milius's 1975 "Wind and the Lion"... loosely based on the capture of American Ion Perdicaris by Ahmed er Raisuli"the last of the Barbary pirates" . It is a useful illustration of what Teddy Roosevelt would do("We want Pedicaris alive or Raisuni dead" ).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/Pedacaris_Incident_cartoon.jpg

When I was in the ME I was told that in hostage situations the hostages were considered to be already dead. This removed constraint of action from whoever was involved in hostage negotiations .The primary goal was to discourage further rogue adventurism rather than hostage release . If it should also result in the safe release of hostages, so much the better.

Obama's choice is clear... send a message that no quarter will be paid to pirates or watch four uneducated jihadist thugs stand off a US Navy Destroyer task force . What use is a blue water Navy if we can't take down a handful of thugs in a dingy?

Happy Easter!!


To Captain Phillips and his family :D







G&P

Great news to hear that the Capt. Is now safe. He risked his life to save his men - he is a true hero.

Thank God, the Seals, and HOORAY!

Since we already have lots on our plate, Obama needs to make up his mind what to do about thi pirate problem now that it has come to public attention.

Will he ignore the problem, much as Clinton did about Al Quida? That will result in more ships being taken. Not only that, but terrorist organizetions are using Somalia as training grounds. This is a war we are in.

Maybe we should cancel all that bail out and put some of the resources into winning the war.

A quick fix for shipping would be to get agreement from the nations involved and allow ships to carry armed security forces, but that would not be a complete solution.

This is a real test for Obama, and it ain't over yet.

Yes I just heard the news . Captain Phillips has been rescued and 3 of the pirates are meeting their virgins.

Yes I just heard the news . Captain Phillips has been rescued and 3 of the pirates are meeting their virgins.Score one for Obama!

Score one for Obama!

Navy Seals had a lot more to do with it than Obama.

Navy Seals had a lot more to do with it than Obama.But Tom said it was Obama's test! Surely he was in control of the whole situation.

Navy Seals had a lot more to do with it than Obama.

Obama is The Commander In Chief... is he not?

Navy Seals had a lot more to do with it than Obama.

But Obama had to give the order. I doubt if anyone else made that decision.

Navy Seals had a lot more to do with it than Obama.
From the AP --

"Navy snipers on the fantail of a destroyer cut down three Somali pirates in a lifeboat and rescued an American sea captain in a surprise nighttime assault in choppy seas Easter Sunday, ending a five-day standoff between a team of rogue gunmen and the world's most powerful military.

It was a stunning ending to an Indian Ocean odyssey that began when 53-year-old freighter Capt. Richard Phillips was taken hostage Wednesday by pirates who tried to hijack the U.S.-flagged Maersk Alabama. The Vermont native was held on a tiny lifeboat that began drifting precariously toward Somalia's anarchic, gun-plagued shores.

The operation, personally approved by President Barack Obama, quashed fears the saga could drag on for months and marked a victory for the U.S."

From FoxNews --

"President Obama twice authorized the military to rescue a U.S. captain held by Somali pirates and whose life appeared to be at risk.

A senior administration official told FOX News that Obama granted the authority on Friday and Saturday to use appropriate force to rescue Capt. Richard Phillips from a lifeboat off the Somali coast. The Pentagon believed Phillips' life was at risk both times, officials said.

A senior administration official said the president's order authorized force for a group of military assets that arrived at the scene late last week. When more resources arrived, Obama added them to a roster of military personnel allowed to engage militarily with the Somali pirates."

Yes, POTUS Obama allowed our military to do what they do best, and I think it is to his credit.

I'm glad that Obama did not handle this like Carter did with the Iranian hostage situation.





G&P

Obama gave the order . It was the right call.

Fred C. Iklé, from the Center for Strategic and International Studies writes in the Compost that the SOP of crews passive response to piracy is exactly the wrong approach to take . He writes :



Start by blaming the timorous lawyers who advise the governments attempting to cope with the pirates such as those who had been engaged in a standoff with U.S. hostage negotiators in recent days. These lawyers misinterpret the Law of the Sea Treaty and the Geneva Conventions and fail to apply the powerful international laws that exist against piracy. The right of self-defense — a principle of international law — justifies killing pirates as they try to board a ship.
Nonetheless, entire crews are unarmed on the ships that sail through the Red Sea and the Gulf of Aden. Shipowners pretend that they cannot trust their crews with weapons, but the facts don't add up. For one thing, in the United States most adults except felons are allowed to have guns, and the laws of many other nations also permit such ownership. Even if owners don't want everyone aboard their ships to be carrying weapons, don't they trust the senior members of their crews? Why couldn't they at least arm the captain and place two experienced and reliable police officers on board? …
Furthermore, the U.N. Security Council should prohibit all ransom payments. If the crew of an attacked ship were held hostage, the Security Council could authorize a military blockade of Somalia until the hostages were released.
Cowardice will not defeat terrorism, nor will it stop the Somali pirates. If anything, continuing to meet the pirates' demands only acts as an incentive for more piracy.

washingtonpost.com (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/12/AR2009041202262.html)

Americans believe in the right to self defense. That attitude was on display during the boarding of the Alabama.
Merchant Marine and chief engineer "Zahid" Reza was on board and was the 1st to see the pirates boarding .

According to Times on line UK :

The crew had scrambled into a safe room once they realised the ship was being boarded.
The ship's chief engineer, A.T.M. Reza, said that he volunteered to show one of the pirates around the engine room. There he used an ice-pick to overpower the Somali, who turned out to be the gang leader.


Ironically the wound that Reza inflicted saved the pirate's life. He was being used as a negotiator while being treated for his wound on an American ship when the rescue went down.

The Alabama and it's crew would be captive today without the resistance .If the passengers of United Flight 93 had not resisted on 9-11-01 the plane would've most likely plunged into the US Capitol .

Last month it was reported that the President intended to end a program that trains pilots in the use of handguns so pilots could protect themselves and the plane from terrorist hijackers. But more recent reports say he is backing down and will let the program continue.
Gun program for pilots set for expansion, officials insist - Washington Times (http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/mar/24/gun-program-for-pilots-set-for-expansion-officials/)

Kudos to Obama for making the call.

First of all, I made a promise that when Obama did something I agreed with I would state my support for him.

Here goes:

Obama was correct on the decision to use military force to free American nationals from Somali pirates. He would have been right to do so even if Capt. Philips had died in the attempt, as hostages often do. ("It sucks to be a hostage" is one of the truisms of special forces hostage rescue trainers. Almost invariably, hostages die during attempts at rescue, either from the enemy's actions or by friendly fire. Hostages die.) The fact that the SEAL snipers were able to rescue the hostage is a testament to their abilities and training. But even if Philips had died, it would still have been the correct choice to make the attempt and to take down the pirates.

As Tom said, Obama deserves Kudos for this decision, and for his non-negotiation line of action.

He passed this test.

As it happens, I know that one of the regulars on this board is a former Navy SEAL. I also noticed that the person in question made a post on this string on Friday. He made another post on Saturday, but I haven't seen any other posts from him until this morning.

The rescue took place yesterday.

During which time said person was not on the board at all.

Hmmmmm...

I wonder... :)

Elliot

Yes, Obama did the right thing. He let those who know what they are doing deal with the problem.

If he continues this policy, he might make a president after all.

Of course, a lot hinges on that phrase "those who know what they are doing".

Chris "I've got a thrill" Matthews felt a need to pursue the story as a matter of "luck."

rWuvW-53UMI

What a dolt.

Those were some darn good snipers, from what I hear. They took out all three targets simultaneously, at a distance, on moving ships that pitched in the waves.

The question that I keep hearing is why did all three of the targets look up (break cover) at the same time? I assume that the SEAL team did SOMETHING to get their attention as a distraction. Maybe they set off some fireworks, or blew a siren or something that made all three pop up for a look. Just a suspicion.

Those are some damn fine warriors.

The one thing that this was not is "luck". One sniper taking out a target might be luck. Two might be a coincidence. THREE is enemy action. And the SEALS were the enemy.

The only one lucky is Chris Mathews... lucky that he still has a job with his crappy ratings.

Elliot

Luck ? it was cold blooded murder (John Murtha)

luck ? it was cold blooded murder (John Murtha)

Now he was only speaking in his official capacity (http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/murtha-immune-from-marines-defamation-suit-2009-04-14.html) as a Congressman.

Immunity works for Dem members of Congress like Murtha and cold cash Jefferson. But let a Republican President invoke it for himself and his staff and you can't stop the howling at the moon.

http://patriotpost.us/images/broadcasts/humor/images/cb0410bj.jpg (http://patriotpost.us/images/broadcasts/humor/images/cb0410bj.jpg)

The pirates were aged 17 to 19 and were amateurs like I said much earlier in this discussion. This was noted by Mr. Gates. My friend did say they looked quite young to him and did not give the proper come back calls in answer to his hailing of them. My cargo ship owner friend spent sometime in Somalia a few years back and understands their customs. The entire country of Somalia is run by different clans as there is no government. The US missed it's chance many years ago to properly negotiate with the clans when it did not take the time to understand the country's customs, etc. and came off as arrogant to these people. The Somalis are highly trained in warfare. Trained by different nations in warfare. They refer to the US as practically amateurs compared to their training in certain things. Also, my friend noted that when he went through this particular area a lot of vessels were anchored out just rusting away.

And yes, the Somalis are very upset at the outcome and have vowed revenge upon the US. I pity any US flag bearing ship going through their waters in the near future as these people do not play.

And no, I don't have to read the newspapers or watch TV to know what is really going on Tom. Sorry to disappoint you.

Well then lets try the captured pirate as a juvenile (even though I think the old British style punishment is better suited ).

In many parts of Africa boys are recruited into the paramilitaries. That does not make them amateurs since you admit to the level of training they undergo. Perhaps you think they are the voluntary Somali coast guard ?
http://dougpowers.com/2009/04/15/al-sharpton-voluntary-nut-case/

Water canons discharging boiler water should do the trick if they dare approach a US vessel again . But I still think their base of operation needs to be hit a few times to drive home the message.
Yes ,we blew it in Somalia because we left with out tails between our legs the first time the enemy drew blood.

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/holb090414_cmyk20090413075339.jpg

You knew some on the left had to sympathize with the misunderstood pirates (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-vazquez/on-pirates_b_186015.html). According to this Somali whose column Huffpo was only glad to reprint, the pirates are just ecological warriors heading off an environmental disaster... "one man's pirate is another man's coast guard." Kos (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/4/9/22349/70586) and DU (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5442004) agree.

I suggest to those on the left that so sympathize with these pirates, to walk the walk, and go to Somalia and hang out and listen to the grievances of these pirates in person rather than from behind some computer.






G&P

Iraq is almost over. Lets bomb Somalia... That'll take care of the pirates once and for all.

That's the logic usually used isn't it?? Somalia is harbouring terrorsts. They must be part of the axis of evil. Time to die Somalians..

I'm wondering how they are still finding American sailors willing to serve on ships passing this area.

If I were one of them, I think I would smuggle a 12 gauge shotgun on board, at least.

Skell let's negotiate with the pirates ;find out what their greviences are... then maybe we can have 6 party talks with them to see if they can mend their ways. Or perhaps we should pay them tribute for daring to sail in internationally recognized waters to conduct commerce.

It is becoming known that maybe Obama didn't do so well on this test after all. According to the report I saw, there were days of conferring between Obama and some 15 different agencies with no definite plan.

Obama had said that he wanted a "peaceful" solution to the hostage situation, unless the life of the hostage was in "imminent" danger.

When the man in charge on the scene saw the rifle pointed at the hostage's back, he relied on the "imminent" aspect and ordered the Seals to take the pirates out.

Of course, Obama took most of the credit.

Yes . I have a time line but I did not post it because all I have is the word of a former spec ops officer who now blogs.

But since you bring it up :

1. BHO (Obama) wouldn't authorize the DEVGRU/NSWC SEAL teams to the scene for 36 hours going against OSC (on scene commander) recommendation.

2. Once they arrived, BHO imposed restrictions on their ROE that they couldn't do anything unless the hostage's life was in "imminent" danger

3. The first time the hostage jumped, the SEALS had the pirates all sighted in, but could not fire due to ROE restriction

4. When the navy RIB came under fire as it approached with supplies, no fire was returned due to ROE restrictions. As the pirates were shooting at the RIB, they were exposed and the SEALS had them all dialed in.

5. BHO specifically denied two rescue plans developed by the Bainbridge CPN and SEAL teams

6. Bainbridge CPN and SEAL team CDR finally decide they have the OpArea and OSC authority to solely determine risk to hostage. 4 hours later, 3 dead pirates

7. BHO immediately claims credit for his "daring and decisive" behaviour.

For more :

http://jeffemanuel.net/2009/04/the-story-of-a-successful-rescue-and-a-democratic-administrations-attempt-to-claim-credit/

I try to wait for further confirmation from multiple sources before posting .Not surprised that the MSM has zipped it.

Oh OK. Lets go on Gal's unsourced report and tom's former spec. op officer.

You guys sound a lot like Cheney. :)

http://mail.google.com/mail/?attid=0.1.0&disp=emb&view=att&th=120d5c9d482f0119

Hello again:

The reason the right rattles sabres is because it's stocked with chickenhawks... A chickenhawk is a right winger who talks like a hawk, but upon closer examination, is a chicken.

Cheney never served a day in the military. Reagan didn't either. John Wayne - nahhh. The Limp one? Are you kidding? Hannity?? Nope. Gingrich? Nope. The dufus? He ran away.

So under every right wing screamer, is a chicken. Do you know why right wingers say that torture works?? Because they know it would work on THEM. They have no concept of what makes up a true warrior.

Therefore, the right will NEVER bow to the inherent strength of the left.

excon

Hello again:

The reason the right rattles sabres is because it's stocked with chickenhawks... A chickenhawk is a right winger who talks like a hawk, but upon closer examination, is a chicken.

Cheney never served a day in the military. Reagan didn't either. John Wayne - nahhh. The Limp one? Are you kidding? Hannity?? Nope. Gingrich? Nope. The dufus? He ran away.

First of all, John Wayne tried to volunteer, but he was rejected on a 4-F, and was pissed as heck about it. He wanted to go.

Reagan DID serve in the military. His service was in the Army Reserve from 1935-1941 as a cavalry officer, and in the Air Corp from 1941-1945 making training and educational films. He sereved for 10 years. His VP, former President George H.W. Bush served as well, being the youngest Naval Aviator at the age of 18, serving from 1943-1945, and earning the Distinguished Flying Cross, an Air Medal, and Presidential Unit Citation. I believe he also got a Purple Heart after being shot down over the Pacific.

Bush Jr. served in the TX National Guard. Like it or not, he served. You may not like HOW he served, but he served his time.

Then there's prominent "chickenhawks" like Senators Robert Bennett, Thad Cochran, Larry Craig, Michael Enzi, Chuck Hagle, John McCain, James Inhofe, Johnny Isakson, Richard Lugar, Pat Roberts, Arlan Specter, Ted Stevens, Craig Thomas, Jeff Sessions, Lindsey Graham, John Warner, and Congressmen Mike Conway, Terry Everett, Walter Jones, Joe Wilson, Duncan Hunter, Geoff Davis, John Kline, Tod Akin, Spencer Bachus, J.G. Barrett, Michael Bilirakis, John Boehner, Henry Brown, Vern Buchanan, Dan Burton, Steve Buyer, Howard Coble, Mike Conway, Thomas Davis, Nathan Deal, John Duncan, Terry Everett, Rodney Frelinghuysen, Wayne Gilchrest, Louie Gohmert, Virgil Goode, Ralph Hall, Doc Hastings, David Hobson, Darrel Issa, Sam Johnson, Walter Jones, Peter King, Mark Kirk, Joseph Knollenberg, Ron Lewis, John Linder, Gary Miller, Steve Pearce, John Peterson, Joseph Pitts, Ted Poe, Jim Ramstad, Ralph Regula, Thomas Reynolds, Michael Rogers, Harold Rogers, John Shimkus, Cliff Stearns, Dave Weldon, Ed Whitfield, Roger Wicker, Heather Wilson, Frank Wolf. Then there's former members of Bush's cabinet, Alberto Gonzalez and Jim Nicholson.

Incidentally, Supreme Court Justices Sam Alito, John Stevens and Anthony Kennedy all served as well.

I don't see any "chickenhawks" among them.

This is not to say that there aren't any Dems who served honorably. There are quite a few, but I'm fairly sure that you weren't referring to them as "right-wing chickenhawks".


So under every right wing screamer, is a chicken. Do you know why right wingers say that torture works?? Because they know it would work on THEM. They have no concept of what makes up a true warrior.

Therefore, the right will NEVER bow to the inherent strength of the left.

Excon

Seems to me that you have run out of arguments. You no loger have the ability to argue based on facts... the facts of whether these techniques are actually torture, the facts of whether these techniques worked or not, the facts surrounding the treatment of unlawful combatants... because the facts all bear out our claim. Even Obama's own NIA agrees with that fact. That is why Obama released memos regarding the legality of turture, but has suppressed the memos on their efficacy, which has been proven. The facts do not favor your position, excon.

So instead you have resorted to name-calling. And even that is turning out to be untrue, since many of those who support our position on the Republican side are NOT "chickenhawks" as you define the term, but rather have military experience of varying degrees.

I would further argue that at least one of the "right wing chickenhawks" on this board has more combat experience than any ten of us combined, that person having been a Navy SEAL. Furthermore, that same person is more qualified to comment on whether these are acts of torture or not, because he went through the SERE training upon which these interrogation techniques were based, and has more direct knowledge of it than anyone else here.

And I have served in the Israeli military. Not with any particular distinction, and not with any combat experience. But I don't think I qualify as a "chickenhawk" by your definition.

In any case, based on the facts, you are still wrong.

Elliot

Hello again, El:

Pssst. This ain't the torture thread. This is the Obama is a tough cookie thread. And, tough he is!

excon

No, the SEALS who took charge are tough cookies. Obama is a guy who took credit for other people's work. Not necessarily a bad thing, but not evidence that he's "tough".

Elliot

Hello again, El:

Don't judge him on what he says. Judge him on what he does...

Hmmm, that sounds familiar...

excon

Hello again, El:

Don't judge him on what he says. Judge him on what he does....

Hmmm, that sounds familiar...

excon

That's exactly what I'm doing. What he did was take credit for the actions of others.

I just had another thought.

When that phone rings at 2:00 AM will it take Obama four days to make a decision?

That's exactly what I'm doing. What he did was take credit for the actions of others.

So stop giving Bush the credit for his 'successful' wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
That argument is so weak.

No, the SEALS who took charge are tough cookies. Obama is a guy who took credit for other people's work.
How do you figure?

Navy Credited With Bold Rescue of U.S. Captain Held by Somali Pirates - Presidential Politics | Political News - FOXNews.com (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04/13/navy-credited-bold-rescue-captain-held-somali-pirates/)

[QUOTE=ETWolverine;1688909]First of all, John Wayne tried to volunteer, but he was rejected on a 4-F, and was pissed as heck about it. He wanted to go.[QUOTE=ETWolverine;1688909]

Absolutely false!

Wayne was never 4F. He requested and received a deferment because of his marital and family status as sole support. Many other Hollywood types were in the same position but that didn't stop them from serving. He claimed later that he intended to join but he "never got around to it". John Ford harassed him for 3 years to get his butt in gear, but Wayne never did. When, toward war's end, he finally was drafted, Republic Pictures wangled another deferment for him. Wayne did not lift a finger to protest, which he could have done, and refuse the deferment.

His super patriotism in peacetime, according to his wife, was motivated by guilt for not having been a part of the big event of his generation.

Maybe Obama didn't pass this test? David Frum has some interesting thoughts (http://www.frumforum.com/punishing-the-seals) on this being related to the punishment of 3 Navy SEALs for giving a prisoner a bloody lip:


Earlier this week, news broke that three Navy SEALs were charged and may be court-martialed for allegedly punching a prisoner. The prisoner, a high-value target (HVT) was turned over to authorities with a bloody lip.

According to a source of mine — a retired SEAL who like myself still serves in other capacities — the feeling going around the Special Operations community at Fort Bragg is that this latest development is a kneejerk reaction to the situation a couple months ago when SEAL operators rescued Captain Phillips – Captain of the Maersk Alabama – off the coast of Somalia.

At the time of the capture, the media played up the angle that President Obama himself gave the order to the SEAL snipers to open fire. Having done extensive time in anti-terrorist units myself, I can tell you from personal experience this is ridiculous, a total fabrication. Nobody except those with “eyes on” the targeted individuals can make the judgment call to open fire.

The truth of the situation was that the SEALs were held off from infiltrating the AO (Area of Operations) for over 36 hours. There was a lot of resistance from the White House in letting them in theater in the first place; once they were in place they were given very restrictive ROE (Rules Of Engagement); so restrictive that they really couldn’t engage their targets. There were two previous opportunities to rescue Captain Phillips, and they were not allowed to engage their targets.

When they finally did execute, they did so by liberally interpreting the ROE; the onsite commander finally had enough with the situation and gave them a weapons-free command and they were able to engage and rescue Captain Phillips. The fallout from the National Command Authority was immediate and extremely unpleasant; the White House did not want the rescue to be conducted in the way that it was.

So the word on the street is that this latest development is payback for the SEALs violating the ROE in rescuing the captain of the Maersk Alabama. The Chain of Command is asserting itself, letting everybody know what’s going to happen to you if you don’t follow orders.

As this was expressed to me, this opinion is based on very good, solid inside information. In my personal experience with Navy brass I have found they are very political and very politically correct. The Naval Command’s reaction to the prisoner situation was so overblown and out of proportion that I somehow find this latest angle quite believable. Unfortunately.

Sounds plausible to me.

Hello again, Steve:

It's interesting how both Bush AND Obama can be responsible for all the ills in the world..

Somebody's fibbing.

excon

Wow, these Seals are elite and are taught how to kill and survive in order to serve country and protect us, but they can be brought up on charges for giving someone a bloody lip?

What?!



G&P

Hello again, Steve:

It's interesting how both Bush AND Obama can be responsible for all the ills in the world..

Somebody's fibbing.

Nah, some of it was Clinton and Carter's fault.

So far Obama is passing this test Hello again, tom:

Come on, admit it. If you're able to wend your way through the right wing chaff, you'll find that Obama is actually a NEOCON of the first order. He has EMBRACED the Bush doctrine on Gitmo. He hasn't brought ONE soldier from Iraq. In the face of a failed state, he has EMBRACED the general who LIED about Pat Tillman. He has EMBRACED torture, rendition, secret NSA wiretapping, the "look forward" philosophy. And, he's even EMBRACED bailing out the banks, which, under ordinary circumstances, should delight a right winger such as yourself.

Or, he's committed the WORST sin of all - alienating ALL sides.

excon

, he's even EMBRACED bailing out the banks, which, under ordinary circumstances, should delight a right winger such as yourself.


Why would you say that ? I opposed the bank bailouts and TARP when President Bush signed them . I am like you on that issue . I don't believe in too big to fail . But I also think the growth of corporatism has very much been a construct of government interference.