The truth is revealing aint it ? What I posted isn't an isolated incident but a common occurance. Yeah we pay a price I guess .But there is no scarcity of needed service here. Here the exception is people who's care is inadequate .That can be addressed.

I think its great that the originating hospital found an adequate way to deal with the small baby which had the correct facilities. I don't have a problem with that. I don't know if it's a common occurrence, or not, I can only read the papers as you do and I read this to in the Toronto Star a few days ago. I read also noted that the parents were not allowed to go with their babyacross the US border because they didn't have passports. I don't think any Canadian here has taken issue with that aspect of an emergency situation gone wrong.

My point is tomder55, her very expensive hospital care will be completely covered by OHIP while she is there, they also covered expensive transportation to the hospital. Her parents will not have to foot the bill which would probably bankrupt them if they tried.

Tick

I think its great that the originating hospital found an adequate way to deal with the small baby which had the correct facilities. I dont have a problem with that. I dont know if its a common occurrence, or not, I can only read the papers as you do and I read this to in the Toronto Star a few days ago. I read also noted that the parents were not allowed to go with their babyacross the US border because they didnt have passports. I dont think any Canadian here has taken issue with that aspect of an emergency situation gone wrong.

My point is tomder55, her very expensive hospital care will be completely covered by OHIP while she is there, they also covered expensive transportation to the hospital. Her parents will not have to foot the bill which would probably bankrupt them if they tried.

tick

And I believe no one should have to go bankrupt to pay for their health care. And to those of you that say it's the law for the US to provide health care regardless of ability to pay. Well that may be true AFTER everything you have is gone. You may get well, but you've got nothing else. Comforting huh?

And I believe no one should have to go bankrupt to pay for their health care. And to those of you that say it's the law for the US to provide health care regardless of ability to pay. Well that may be true AFTER everything you have is gone. You may get well, but you've got nothing else. Comforting huh?

We’ve already been down that road, my daughter had nothing to begin with and she received excellent care from ICU staff, private practice internists, nephrologists, pulmonologists and one hell of a gynecological oncologist. Maybe your state sucks but in Texas NO ONE is turned away REGARDLESS of financial status, it’s the law. I know firsthand that our private hospital, consistently named one of the best in the nation, will work with those who can’t afford to pay their bill and will either discount it according to ability to pay and circumstances or just write it off. All you have to do is ask.

If there’s a problem it’s in places like where Michelle Obama and crew were busy dumping poor patients on other hospitals.

And I believe no one should have to go bankrupt to pay for their health care. And to those of you that say it's the law for the US to provide health care regardless of ability to pay. Well that may be true AFTER everything you have is gone. You may get well, but you've got nothing else. Comforting huh?

Medicare and Medicaid are designed for those who are low/no-income, or are disabled and unable to afford health insurance. If anyone is going bankrupt because of medical bills, it is because Medicare and Medicaid have failed, not the private health care system. The failure is in the GOVERNMENT-RUN SYSTEM not the insurance companies.

So your solution is to make more of the government-run system that has failed these people in the first place, and extend it to everyone...

Brilliant. Let's do something that already doesn't work... but more of it. That'll fix it.

Elliot

If anyone is going bankrupt because of medical bills, it is because Medicare and Medicaid have failed, not the private health care system. The failure is in the GOVERNMENT-RUN SYSTEM not the insurance companies.Oh really?

Medical Bills Prompt More Than 60% of U.S. Bankruptcies - Health News - Health.com (http://news.health.com/2009/06/04/medical-bills-bankruptcies/)

This year, an estimated 1.5 million Americans will declare bankruptcy. Many people may chalk up that misfortune to overspending or a lavish lifestyle, but a new study suggests that more than 60% of people who go bankrupt are actually capsized by medical bills. Bankruptcies due to medical bills increased by nearly 50% in a six-year period, from 46% in 2001 to 62% in 2007, and most of those who filed for bankruptcy were middle-class, well-educated homeowners, according to a report that will be published in the August issue of The American Journal of Medicine.

NCHC | Facts About Healthcare - Health Insurance Costs (http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml)

A recent study by Harvard University researchers found that the average out-of-pocket medical debt for those who filed for bankruptcy was $12,000. The study noted that 68 percent of those who filed for bankruptcy had health insurance. In addition, the study found that 50 percent of all bankruptcy filings were partly the result of medical expenses.9 Every 30 seconds in the United States someone files for bankruptcy in the aftermath of a serious health problem.



A new survey shows that more than 25 percent said that housing problems resulted from medical debt, including the inability to make rent or mortgage payments and the development of bad credit ratings.10
About 1.5 million families lose their homes to foreclosure every year due to unaffordable medical costs.

We’ve already been down that road, my daughter had nothing to begin with and she received excellent care from ICU staff, private practice internists, nephrologists, pulmonologists and one hell of a gynecological oncologist. Maybe your state sucks but in Texas NO ONE is turned away REGARDLESS of financial status, it’s the law. I know firsthand that our private hospital, consistently named one of the best in the nation, will work with those who can’t afford to pay their bill and will either discount it according to ability to pay and circumstances or just write it off. All you have to do is ask.

If there’s a problem it’s in places like where Michelle Obama and crew were busy dumping poor patients on other hospitals.

If you have nothing to begin with, like your daughter, you are in better shape than if you have "some" to begin. The "some" will be taken, before the hospital will not be paid.

There is A WHOLE LOT of personal loss that will occur BEFORE you get the freebie. I've never heard anyone go to the ER, the doctor's office, or into the hospital say this. " Listen doc, I have some money but it has tags attached to it such as food, shelter, transportation, day care so I can work, etc. I could pay you or fall short on those other things. So... could you just write off this inflated charge so I can be well AND have money to pay for my other living expenses?" I've "asked" as you say. This does not have to be major medical stuff. This can be a regular dr. visit that still puts them in a position to weigh their costs vs. suffering.. I've avoided med treatments in the past, waited out my illness, etc. because even though I could pay, I thought I should reserve the money for when my kids were sick or my car had a problem, etc..

You keep addressing the most dire cases, such as your daughter. There is a lot of gray area that you don't address.

If you have nothing to begin with, like your daughter, you are in better shape than if you have "some" to begin. The "some" will be taken, before the hospital will not be paid.

There is A WHOLE LOT of personal loss that will occur BEFORE you get the freebie. I've never heard anyone go to the ER, the doctor's office, or into the hospital say this. " Listen doc, I have some money but it has tags attached to it such as food, shelter, transportation, day care so I can work, etc. I could pay you or fall short on those other things. So... could you just write off this inflated charge so I can be well AND have money to pay for my other living expenses?" I've "asked" as you say. This does not have to be major medical stuff. This can be a regular dr. visit that still puts them in a position to weigh their costs vs. suffering.. I've avoided med treatments in the past,, waited out my illness, etc. because even though I could pay, I thought I should reserve the money for when my kids were sick or my car had a problem, etc..

You keep addressing the most dire cases, such as your daughter. There is a lot of gray area that you don't address.

Cozy, it must suck where you live because it's exactly as I said here. I've said all along that changes would be good, but I know first hand about those with nothing (my daughter) and those with something, me. I speak from plenty of experience with medical bills, I'm not wealthy, not even remotely close - yet I've managed to maintain insurance coverage, stay in my home, make my car payments, watch satellite TV, take vacations, buy Christmas gifts AND pay over $30,000 out of pocket in medical bills the past few years during which my wife was out of work 3 times plus being off for 3 months after neck surgery. If I can do it then so can others.

...watch satellite TV, take vacations, buy Christmas gifts AND pay over $30,000 out of pocket in medical bills... If I can do it then so can others.I guess that's the cultural difference that we'll never settle here. As a staunch conservative you believe that since you did it then everyone else should be able to afford it as well whereas a Canadian thinks that all should have equal access to healthcare no matter what station of life they are at.

cozy, it must suck where you live because it's exactly as I said here. I've said all along that changes would be good, but I know first hand about those with nothing (my daughter) and those with something, me. I speak from plenty of experience with medical bills, I'm not wealthy, not even remotely close - yet I've managed to maintain insurance coverage, stay in my home, make my car payments, watch satellite TV, take vacations, buy Christmas gifts AND pay over $30,000 out of pocket in medical bills the past few years during which my wife was out of work 3 times plus being off for 3 months after neck surgery. If I can do it then so can others.

I've lived in SC, NC, Kansas, Virginia, Pennslyvania, and Georgia. They must all suck then.

I guess that's the cultural difference that we'll never settle here. As a staunch conservative you believe that since you did it then everyone else should be able to afford it as well whereas a Canadian thinks that all should have equal access to healthcare no matter what station of life they are at.

NK, I have repeatedly acknowledged (as in the last post) that we could use some improvements. I Just don't believe our government should be the provider of health care, I'm not moved by these specious claims people can't get health care in this country, and it's a damn lie that health care providers won't work with people to pay their bills... many if not most of whom gotten themselves in deep financial waters all on their own. Besides the potential for disaster which has been demonstrated in other countries, it will be a bad thing to make Americans even more dependent on government for their needs instead of doing more to get them out the entitlement cycle. I work, I pay my bills and I believe every American that can needs to do the same instead of making me do it for them.

And I've agreed that *your* government should indeed not be the provider of healthcare. That leaves you guys in a precarious position.

Oh really?

Medical Bills Prompt More Than 60% of U.S. Bankruptcies - Health News - Health.com (http://news.health.com/2009/06/04/medical-bills-bankruptcies/)


NCHC | Facts About Healthcare - Health Insurance Costs (http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml)

NK, you have again missed the point.

Let's assume that every single one of those people did indeed go bankrupt because of medical expenses.

Every one of those people (or the vast majority of them) were supposed to be elligible for Medicare or Medicaid. If they were going bankrupt due to their medical bills, the GOVERNMENT was supposed to have stepped in to help them. That is what Medicare and Medicaid are there for. That is their purpose.

So if Medicare and Medicaid failed for all those people, and I don't doubt that it did, what makes you think that a bigger government system that encompasses 300 million people is going to do a better job of covering people than the smaller system with fewer people to cover does now? What makes you think that if we make the government system that failed these people even bigger and force more people into the system it will make things better and not worse.

Repeating the failures of the current system on a larger scale is NOT going to make fewer failures. It's going to make more of them.

The failures of the government-run Medicare and Medicaid systems that were supposed to help those most in need are what caused these people to go bankrupt in the first place. Why would anyone trust the systems responsible for such failures with even more responsibilities?

Elliot

And I've agreed that *your* government should indeed not be the provider of healthcare. That leaves you guys in a precarious position.

Not at all.

Again, the issue is with 3% of the people of the United States who are uninsured through no fault of their own for an extended period (more than 4 months) and are here legally.

Do you really think we can't find a way to take care of 3% of our population without destroying the best healthcare system in the world to do it?

Yes, we need to take care of these people. I have never denied that. What I have said is that we don't need to destroy the entire medical system in the USA to do it. What I have also said is that it is not the major disaster that the Obama administration would have you think it was. To listen to them, EVERYONE is about to go bankrupt because of the greedy insurance companies, doctors, hospitals and pharma companies. That is NOT the case.

Leaving aside charitable foundations that help people who need medical help (and there are plenty of them), there are plenty of free clinics. Hospitals already take care of these people if they are in need, with no charge. Pharmaceutical companies give away free or below-market-price drugs to those in need. These programs can be expanded on without government interference and without dismantling the healthcare system. We CAN cover these people and we don't need to create nationalized healthcare to do it.

Elliot

From your postings it looks like you guys have a kickass system. Congrats.

From your postings it looks like you guys have a kickass system. Congrats.

:D:D:DThat is funny. I love it.

it is not the major disaster that the Obama administration would have you think it was. To listen to them, EVERYONE is about to go bankrupt because of the greedy insurance companies, doctors, hospitals and pharma companies. That is NOT the case.

Exactly, and it is exactly as they're doing with climate change - deliberately avoiding an honest debate and playing on fears and emotions in order to enact an agenda. These people don't give a horse's a$$ about your health care, they want the power, they want to soothe their self-serving consciences and stroke their already over-inflated egos.

From your postings it looks like you guys have a kickass system. Congrats.

As long as you have Canadians coming here for health care and your private practices are booming under your nationalized plan, I'd be a hell of a lot less brave about mocking us if I were you.

To listen to them, EVERYONE is about to go bankrupt because of the greedy insurance companies, doctors, hospitals and pharma companies. That is NOT the case.Did I say "everyone"? No, you did. And the stats don't come from Obama, people are indeed going bankrupt:

A recent study by Harvard University researchers found that the average out-of-pocket medical debt for those who filed for bankruptcy was $12,000. The study noted that 68 percent of those who filed for bankruptcy had health insurance. In addition, the study found that 50 percent of all bankruptcy filings were partly the result of medical expenses.9 Every 30 seconds in the United States someone files for bankruptcy in the aftermath of a serious health problem.
A new survey shows that more than 25 percent said that housing problems resulted from medical debt, including the inability to make rent or mortgage payments and the development of bad credit ratings.10
About 1.5 million families lose their homes to foreclosure every year due to unaffordable medical costs. 11

Overall, three-quarters of the people with a medically related bankruptcy had health insurance, they say.
“That was actually the predominant problem in patients in our study—78% of them had health insurance, but many of them were bankrupted anyway because there were gaps in their coverage like co-payments and deductibles and uncovered services,” says Dr. Woolhandler. “Other people had private insurance but got so sick that they lost their job and lost their insurance.”

As long as you have Canadians coming here for health care and your private practices are booming under your nationalized plan, I'd be a hell of a lot less brave about mocking us if I were you.I was congratulating you on having one of the best health care systems in the world.

I was congratulating you on having one of the best health care systems in the world.

Right, there was no sarcasm there at all, ask cozyk.

From your postings it looks like you guys have a kickass system. Congrats.

EXACTLY!! We do have a kickass system, and there is no reason to change what works. That's my point. In fact, that is exactly the point of every conservative on this thread.

Glad you finally got the point.

Elliot

:D:D:DThat is funny. I love it.

Yes, me too ROFL

Tick(led) pink

As long as you have Canadians coming here for health care and your private practices are booming under your nationalized plan, I'd be a hell of a lot less brave about mocking us if I were you.

I almost wish this thread was closed because everyone here goes around in circles. Anyway, the only Canadians that go down your side are the ones who can afford to do so for medical procedures and don't want to wait because they will miss their trip to Europe or whatever. . OHIP is dead against covering medical expenses in the US, unless of course it is a case similar to the preemie that had to go down for medical assistance. Our seniors who used to spend 6 months out of the year in Florida, had lovely homes, can't afford to be there now because if they have major health issues, nothing is covered, i.e. if they have strokes, heart attacks insurance is just too expensive to come by for even a minimal stay in a US hospital. So they stay home.

Maybe it is so easy to get beds in the US because no one can afford to be in them and choose to suffer needlessly in their homes and die in bed never having had proper medical care. Gangrene from diabetes must be running rampant in the US. And gosh, how do they afford their meds, at the moment, being over 65 mine are $6.11 through OHIPand will continue to be until I pass away at a ripe old age of 95 to l00 being entirely well taken care of by my doctors and hospital and Personal Support Workers coming into my own to attend me, also paid by OHIP. Alas, my job is so hard being a certified Personal Support Worker and registered Nursing Assistant, doing just this type of work.

Sorry, am I rubbing the wound raw here:cool:

The truth is revealing aint it ? What I posted isn't an isolated incident but a common occurance. Yeah we pay a price I guess .But there is no scarcity of needed service here. Here the exception is people who's care is inadequate .That can be addressed.

Yet Canadians have a longer life expectancy than the Americans...

EXACTLY!!! We do have a kickass system, and there is no reason to change what works. That's my point. In fact, that is exactly the point of every conservative on this thread.

Glad you finally got the point.

Elliot

We have a kickass system?? :D:D:D: No need to change what works?? :D:D:D: ROFLMAF

If military healthcare is anything like what a government-run system would be, then allow me to comment... On one hand, the system is pretty efficient-call in the AM for a same-day appointment, no waiting months for an appointment-see the Dr and if a referral is needed for a service, you walk down the hall of the hospital and go get your x-ray or whatever you need-your prescription is transferred directly from a computer in the physicians room to the pharmacy across the hall, you pick it up and leave the hospital without paying a dime. If they don't offer the service you need, you are referred somewhere that does without having to worry about the cost.

The bad stuff... you are a number. You are not treated like a human being, rather more like a burden, "how can we get you out of here as cheaply as possible?"... there is a lot of ignoring of symptoms, as in "maybe if we send you home with Motrin and tell you to drink water, it'll go away and we won't have to do any tests or give you any GOOD medicine"... no offense, but the Dr's are just not very good. They don't have to be! They're going to get paid the same whether they're an awesome Dr or whether they misdiagnose people left and right... there's no incentive to excel, no incentive to even just be compassionate and human.

I have had private insurance for a while now, and while I can see my GREAT Dr, I can't get some of the tests he wants me to do (I need an MRI... not life-threatining, just necessary). I can't afford the co-pay. But I can't qualify for any help either. There's no "free clinic" for MRI's...

I don't think I really said anything here, sorry... just relating my personal experiences. I personally think that there needs to be some kind of change absolutely, but I am not in favor of government-run healthcare. There needs to be some kind of middle-ground.

Private practice will boom in United States as well if we institute National Health Insurance. What is amazing, though, is that Americans look at Canada or England to justify why Universal Health Care doesn't work. What about Germany, Denmark, Sweden, and other Western Nations that have national health care? I just wrote Senator Bill Nelson about National Health Insurance. Americans don't need health insurance. They need health care. excellent point

A health insurance based system will breed the same capitalist problems as did our financial system. Fraud, greed, lawsuits, overspending on technolgoy, etc. A system like the military and VA eliminates almost all of the excess costs. The government controls labor costs, material costs, licensure of providers, claims, lawsuits, etc. I spent 20years as a recipient of military health care and 12 years working in the system, and yes, there are complaints, but look at the $1.5 Billion in lawsuits in the civilian sector.
ERISA laws greatly reduce the ability to sue the government for malpractice Any system that motivates greed will not only increase costs, but lower quality!

When the majority of congress people, the justice department, and the president himself get their healthcare strictly through the VA or medicaid - then they can vote on a government run healthcare system. Until then it is just hot air.

Illinois Medical Malpractice Blog: Illinois Senators demand answers from Marion VA Hospital (http://medicalmalpractice.levinperconti.com/2007/09/senators_demand_answers_from_m.html)





In July 2006, Jose Veizaga-Mendez had to surrender his license to practice medicine in the state of Massachusetts. A state regulatory board had investigated Veizaga-Mendez and found that he had provided unacceptable care to seven patients. Then, Veizaga-Mendez made his way to Illinois and was hired as a surgeon by a VA hospital in Southern Illinois. At that point, the VA hospital experienced a sudden increase in post-surgical deaths. Although Veizaga-Mendez has since resigned, Senators Obama and Durbin have written a letter




When the government controls "labor costs" then it will be hard to have qualified doctors work under that system or expect future debt laden medical students and residents work under that system. The above is a foreshadowing of government healthcare. Note that this occurred under Obama's watch.






G&P

We have a kickass system??? :D:D:D: No need to change what works???:D:D:D: ROFLMAF

We do have a kickass system, and the proof is in our patient outcomes. Our patients live longer. Cancer patients have lower levels of recurrence. We have fewer cases of patients suffering from infections caused by the hospitals. Overall, we have better outcomes than any other system in the world on a statistical basis.

And there is no need to change what works in order to fix what doesn't. I grant you that there are about 10-15 million people who need better coverage. But that doesn't mean we need to screw around with what works for the other 285 million of us. Fix what's broken, don't change what isn't.

What part of that is funny to you?

I think you've lost it.

If military healthcare is anything like what a government-run system would be, then allow me to comment......On one hand, the system is pretty efficient-call in the AM for a same-day appointment, no waiting months for an appointment-see the Dr and if a referral is needed for a service, you walk down the hall of the hospital and go get your x-ray or whatever you need-your prescription is transfered directly from a computer in the physicians room to the pharmacy across the hall, you pick it up and leave the hospital without paying a dime. If they don't offer the service you need, you are referred somewhere that does without having to worry about the cost.

The bad stuff.....you are a number. You are not treated like a human being, rather more like a burden, "how can we get you out of here as cheaply as possible?".....there is a lot of ignoring of symptoms, as in "maybe if we send you home with Motrin and tell you to drink water, it'll go away and we won't have to do any tests or give you any GOOD medicine".......no offense, but the Dr's are just not very good. They don't have to be!! They're gonna get paid the same whether they're an awesome Dr or whether they misdiagnose people left and right....there's no incentive to excell, no incentive to even just be compassionate and human.

I have had private insurance for a while now, and while I can see my GREAT Dr, I can't get some of the tests he wants me to do (I need an MRI....not life-threatining, just necessary). I can't afford the co-pay. But I can't qualify for any help either. There's no "free clinic" for MRI's......

I don't think I really said anything here, sorry....just relating my personal experiences. I personally think that there needs to be some kind of change absolutely, but I am not in favor of government-run healthcare. There needs to be some kind of middle-ground.

First of all, you said quite a bit here. You, a person who has experience with both private and government-run health care have given us your personal experience and explained it perfectly. Thank you for your post.

That said, you mentioned the need for an MRI. Does that mean that the VA isn't covering the cost of the MRI? Also, are you inelligible for Medicare or Medicaid? Medicare should cover you based on a means test, and Medicaid if you are either over a certain age or are disabled. Are you inelligible for these?

If you are inelligible for an MRI through Medicare, Medicaid and the VA system, what does this say about government-run medical coverage specifically designed to close the gaps left by your private insurance?

Yours is a case that specifically proves my point.

Again, I thank you for your post.

Elliot

We do have a kickass system, and the proof is in our patient outcomes. Our patients live longer. Cancer patients have lower levels of recurrence. We have fewer cases of patients suffering from infections caused by the hospitals. Overall, we have better outcomes than any other system in the world on a statistical basis.

And there is no need to change what works in order to fix what doesn't. I grant you that there are about 10-15 million people who need better coverage. But that doesn't mean we need to screw around with what works for the other 285 million of us. Fix what's broken, don't change what isn't.

What part of that is funny to you?

I think you've lost it.

Sorry, can't help it. Still laughing.:D:D:D

Thank you, Elliot! I'm blushing :)

I am not eligible for Medicaid as both me and my husband work, we have income and assets that prohibit our eligibility for it. I'm nowhere near old enough for Medicaid! To be honest with you, I don't know if I could get the MRI done through VA... I guess I could, I am a Veteran... but really I'd rather stay out of the government crapola. Well, I guess that says a lot in itself, huh... I'd rather go without the test or scrape up every last dime to pay for it instead of getting involved in the government system again...

The situation I'm in is that I make and own too much to get aid but too little to afford costly co-pays. Thankfully a new facility called Doctor's MRI just opened up near me and they have reasonable rates for MRI's, so I plan on going through their service as soon as I can get a referral, hopefully next week.

I truly fear that if we were to turn to a government-run system that we will lose good doctors, and that people will not be so inspired to even become doctors... and that our present standing as being at the forefront of medical advances will slip away.

It's terrible to be seen by a doctor who has lost their passion and that doesn't care or that is so restricted by costs and ridiculously low standards/guidelines of care. The military doctors literally have guidelines that dictate how they are to care for a person based on cost and time. NOT based on individual patient needs, like it should be. The military doctors all made the same pay (aside from rank differences) and they got paid on the 1st and the 15th regardless of if they cured anyone or had 10 patients die on them. They didn't have to be nice, personable or compassionate... what for? They get paid no matter what, they don't have to build a reputation or have a great track record like other doctors. That is SCARY! Who would want that?

The quality of the system will go downhill so quickly once the good Dr's leave the system and when there's not enough new Dr's coming in. How can anyone excel while stuck in a socialist system? They can't, and they don't.

Elliot, the breakdown of the uninsured population was VERY enlightening. That information needs to really be put out there. If more people knew that, I think more people would be less excited to turn over to a government system. 11 million are illegals? Yeah, sure, we should restructure our system for them... NOT... And so many have the option of insurance, but opt out. Well, maybe they should be mandated to have insurance if it's available to them.

I have no health coverage and I am not for government health care.
One reason is the horrible stories of countries that do have gov run health care.
Reason two is everybody thinks it will be free while they are wondering why their taxes are so high.
Three our government can't even handle its own financial affairs let alone trying to run how they see fit for us to use our money.

I have no health coverage and I am not for government health care.
One reason is the horrible stories of countries that do have gov run health care.
Reason two is everybody thinks it will be free while they are wondering why their taxes are so high.
Three our government can't even handle its own financial affairs let alone trying to run how they see fit for us to use our money.

Socialized medicine in Canada isn't free, nohelp, it used to be paid for with employee deductions but now the employer picks up the tab. It has nothing to do with our taxes.

Tick

What about all the people on welfare or unemployed here?
Our taxes will go up to pay for them.

What about all the people on welfare or unemployed here?
Our taxes will go up to pay for them.

You are talking about the US, right ? Yes I guess your taxes will go up.

Tick

Thank you, Elliot!! I'm blushing :)

I am not eligible for Medicaid as both me and my husband work, we have income and assets that prohibit our eligibility for it. I'm nowhere near old enough for Medicaid!! To be honest with you, I don't know if I could get the MRI done through VA.....I guess I could, I am a Veteran.....but really I'd rather stay out of the government crapola. Well, I guess that says alot in itself, huh...I'd rather go without the test or scrape up every last dime to pay for it instead of getting involved in the government system again.....system for them.....NOT...And so many have the option of insurance, but opt out. Well, maybe they should be mandated to have insurance if it's available to them.



I thought Medicaid is based on income only and Medicare is based on age - ? Medicaid (http://www.health.state.ny.us/health_care/medicaid/)

You are talking about the US, right ? Yes I guess your taxes will go up.

tick

Pay higher taxes or pay the already high health ins. Premiums. The taxed method creates equal coverage regardless of your present job situation.

As it is now, there are too many holes. Working for employers that do NOT provide coverage because of the high cost to them, part timers not eligible, students that can't go full time but have to spread their education out (when parents have child coverage IF their over 18 child is a FULL time student) The cobra mess between jobs. What a cluster fook!
Simplify. It will be coming out of our pocket one way or the other. Make it simple!

Yeah at my work you have to pay around $150. A month toward your health insurance, From what all I have heard if America starts the health care coverage you (out of pocket or taxes) or your employer are still going to have to pay at least that amount.
What does it in for me is that I can go out right now and get a health plan on my own through High Mark or where ever at $150. A month so what benefit is the government really doing.
I don't want health coverage and I know I CAN get it when I do want it.

If I am forced to have it taken out of my pay I just might quit. 150. Out of my pay would mean I would only make $600. A month or less.
I'm not slaving away for peanuts at that rate.

Everybody seems to be Banting around a lot of numbers. Many people like NH choose to not have health care because of cost. Instead they take a chance that nothing bad will happen. Others like me, unemployed cannot afford to pay for health care out of the measly unemployment payments I receive and still eat. So I signed up for Vets. At least if I do get sick, I can get some level of medical care. There is no way a Government can survive sucking at least 20% of a countries GDP. That is where this country is going really fast. So no matter what, this debate is probably a moot point with the imminent collapse of this form of government.
BTW NH, I know Moon.

You and a few others here have said they know/miss Moon/Mooncrest.

The government can't even keep a good budget with their own finances so how do they expect to fix the health care!

A few times a day here, posters are writing in saying they have medical issues and no money for doctors appt. so ask us for diagnosis, which we can't do for obvious reasons. Its sad that you guys have such issues like this where its either eat, pay lodging or go to the doctor for medical attention.

Tick

you and a few others here have said they know/miss Moon/Mooncrest.

The government can't even keep a good budget with their own finances so how do they expect to fix the health care!


Moon,PA! Suburb of Pittsburgh.

A few times a day here, posters are writing in saying they have medical issues and no money for doctors appt., so ask us for diagnosis, which we can't do for obvious reasons. Its sad that you guys have such issues like this where its either eat, pay lodging or go to the doctor for medical attention.

tick

My thoughts exactly. I've never heard of so many people that were reluctant for something to be better and easier. Just don't get it.:rolleyes:

I believe we would still have the same issues and more if we go with socialized medicine.

http://www.riograndefoundation.org/new/articles/?EC=ReadArticle&ArticleID=277

I believe we would still have the same issues and more if we go with socialized medicine.

News Archive (http://www.riograndefoundation.org/new/articles/?EC=ReadArticle&ArticleID=277)

I re-interate. As a Canadian I don't have any problem with my healthcare system. My son had an expensive heart operation 7 years ago with all expenses paid, by one of the best cardiac speclalists in the country, Dr. Erwin Wigle, Toronto General Hospital, who received the order of Canada three years ago. I have diabetes and my care is ultra, I couldn't wish for better. I work for Canadian Red Cross, senior clients all are direct recipients of good care.

What problems would you be referring to, no help?

Tick

Your son is most likely younger. From what I understand it is older people they feel don't have as much of a chance at a quality of life.
http://s4-us2.ixquick.com/do/highlight.pl?ah=1&l=english&cat=web&c=hf&q=surgery+denied+to+elderly+with+socialized+medici ne&rl=NONE&u=http:%2F%2Fwww.liberty-page.com%2Fissues%2Fhealthcare%2Fsocialized.html&rid=LGLMOQRMSNPR&hlq=http%3A%2F%2Fus2.ixquick.com%2Fdo%2Fmetasearch .pl%3Fengine2%3Dixdmoz%26engine9%3Dcuil%26engine11 %3Dyahoo%26engine7%3Dgigablast%26cat%3Dweb%26engin e10%3Dlycos%26engine1%3Dentireweb%26engine6%3Dbing %26cmd%3Dprocess_search%26language%3Denglish%26eng inecount%3D12%26query%3Dsurgery+denied+to+elderly+ with+socialized+medicine%26engine5%3Dqkport_alt%26 engine8%3Dixwiki%26engine3%3Dask_en%26engine4%3Dex alead_alt%26engine0%3Dalltheweb

I believe we would still have the same issues and more if we go with socialized medicine.

News Archive (http://www.riograndefoundation.org/new/articles/?EC=ReadArticle&ArticleID=277)

Why would you think that? We keep getting first hand accounts of praise. It's not like we are reading some skewed poll. These are private citizens speaking first hand.

The links I am giving are not polls they are real life stories on how people were made to wait for life threatening problems and many ended up dying before they could get care.

I have heard many stories from the people themselves besides the ones on the internet.

Your son is most likely younger. From what I understand it is older people they feel don't have as much of a chance at a quality of life.
Ixquick Highlighted Result Page (http://s4-us2.ixquick.com/do/highlight.pl?ah=1&l=english&cat=web&c=hf&q=surgery+denied+to+elderly+with+socialized+medici ne&rl=NONE&u=http:%2F%2Fwww.liberty-page.com%2Fissues%2Fhealthcare%2Fsocialized.html&rid=LGLMOQRMSNPR&hlq=http%3A%2F%2Fus2.ixquick.com%2Fdo%2Fmetasearch .pl%3Fengine2%3Dixdmoz%26engine9%3Dcuil%26engine11 %3Dyahoo%26engine7%3Dgigablast%26cat%3Dweb%26engin e10%3Dlycos%26engine1%3Dentireweb%26engine6%3Dbing %26cmd%3Dprocess_search%26language%3Denglish%26eng inecount%3D12%26query%3Dsurgery+denied+to+elderly+ with+socialized+medicine%26engine5%3Dqkport_alt%26 engine8%3Dixwiki%26engine3%3Dask_en%26engine4%3Dex alead_alt%26engine0%3Dalltheweb)

Yes,he was younger, but I am just telling you, I work as a PSW and Nurses Aid for the Red Cross. My clients are just those seniors who have come out of the hospital and provided after hospital care in their homes by myself and other well qualified PSWS, paid for by OHIP. They are kept out of nursing homes by us and what we do until they are able to care for themselves along with family members. If there are older individuals who are not receiving the care they deserve, then they have not sought it, or family members have not sought it for them.

Tick

So, you live in Toronto? Not at all the same as in small town, Canada. I have worked in plenty of small towns in Alberta and BC where health care is non existent. Clinics are on a one or two days a week ration because there is not enough doctors and nurses to staff them or there is simply not enough money to go around. And how about an air ambulance ride to the hospital? Nope! Too expensive. Get yourself to the hospital which in many cases can be 6 hours by car away. You work in one aspect and in one region of a very large country that takes 56% of a persons gross income just to provide minimal benefits to some. Not my type of rationing idea.

So, you live in Toronto? Not at all the same as in small town, Canada. I have worked in plenty of small towns in Alberta and BC where health care is non existent. Clinics are on a one or two days a week ration because there is not enough doctors and nurses to staff them or there is simply not enough money to go around. And how about an air ambulance ride to the hospital? Nope! Too expensive. Get yourself to the hospital which in many cases can be 6 hours by car away. You work in one aspect and in one region of a very large country that takes 56% of a persons gross income just to provide minimal benefits to some. Not my type of rationing idea.

Sorry to burst your bubble, 450donn, I live in Cobourg Ontario (um, small town Ontario) a two hour drive from central Toronto. We have a first class hospital with MRI, cancer unit, and everything else one could possibly want. If it isn't here, it is in Kingston Ontario, l hour away, or Peterborough l/2 hour away. And yes we have a helipad in Cobourg Ontario. Red Cross work the same way in Toronto and vicinity bringing follow up care to senior citizens, new mothers and all people in between, all covered by OHIP.

Tick

sorry to burst your bubble, 450donn, I live in Cobourg Ontario (um, small town Ontario) a two hour drive from central Toronto. We have a first class hospital with MRI, cancer unit, and everything else one could possibly want. If it isnt here, it is in Kingston Ontario, l hour away, or Peterborough l/2 hour away. And yes we have a helipad in Cobourg Ontario. Red Cross work the same way in Toronto and vicinity bringing follow up care to senior citizens, new mothers and all people in between, all covered by OHIP.

tick

Some people are so determined to tell you why you should not be happy with your system but they can't. Every attempt fails miserably. Why do I think that is so funny? I must be warped in some way. Anyhoo, my daughter is returning from Orleans, Ontario tomorrow. She will eventually be living there full time. You familiar with it?

The links I am giving are not polls they are real life stories on how people were made to wait for life threatening problems and many ended up dying before they could get care.

I have heard many stories from the people themselves besides the ones on the internet.

Natasha Richardson came off the slopes saying she was okay and didn't need medical attention. Her family has mega bucks and her husband was in Toronto making a movie. She refused care. I read the stories in my paper as it all happened. I don't know about the other ones, no help, I never heard of them before, and I read three papers in the morning sitting in my front home in small town ontario with a worldclass hospital with a helipad. Okay, so I still say you don't have a leg to stand on, anyone of you, with your nitpicking.

I am off this board only because it goes around in circles. You mention Natasha Richardson, who is long gone and that was, what last year.

You will never have socialized medicine,no help, you don't have a Tommy Douglas who started it in Canada, fought for it, gave even immigrants a new lease on life for basic health care with minimal deductions from their pay cheques in l920 Canada. I think I paid l5 dollars a month when I first started working 40 years ago. It isn't deducted from my pay cheque any longer because I am a senior citizen on Old age security and Canada Pension.

I don't know what the fuss is about. You don't have health care, or you do. Who cares what way you get it as long as it works for someone.

Tick

Some people are so determined to tell you why you should not be happy with your system but they can't. Every attempt fails miserably. Why do I think that is so funny? I must be warped in some way. Anyhoo, my daughter is returning from Orleans, Ontario tomorrow. She will eventually be living there full time. You familiar with it?

Yes, of course famiiliar with it; part of Ottawa, Ontario. It is a six hour drive from where I live in Cobourg, Ontario. Good hospitals, a university town and hub of Canada. It is our capital. All of our basic military personnel live there, Navy, Army, Air Force, etc.

Tick

I re-interate. As a Canadian I dont have any problem with my healthcare system. My son had an expensive heart operation 7 years ago with all expenses paid, by one of the best cardiac speclalists in the country, Dr. Erwin Wigle, Toronto General Hospital, who received the order of Canada three years ago. I have diabetes and my care is ultra, I couldnt wish for better. I work for Canadian Red Cross, senior clients all are direct recipients of good care.

What problems would you be referring to, no help?

tick



My husband had three heart attacks. Each time his roommate in the US was a Canadian citizen who came to the US because he/she could not get the needed surgery scheduled in Canada within a reasonable period. One of his roommates waited 8 months for a consultation with one of the "best cardiac specialists" in Canada.

I don't know if this is typical but it was frightening.

I dont know what the fuss is about. You dont have health care, or you do. Who cares what way you get it as long as it works for someone.

tick



I think the fuss is because it doesn't "work" for everyone. Both countries need health care that does work for everyone.

I think the fuss is because it doesn't "work" for everyone. Both countries need health care that does work for everyone.

Mine works for me and it works for my clients. That is all I know and that is what is important to me.

Thanks for your import Judy, your input is always appreciated and well thought out.

Tick:cool:

Yeah I know Natasha was an exception that was not the health cares fault, but many people do have these stories of being placed on a waiting list where they die waiting.
The USA gets many of the people who can afford to come here for their surgery because they know they will die otherwise.

I can give you hundreds of links to hundreds of stories but this one was someone I knew that died waiting. Any body that knew him can tell you he died because he had to wait too many months before he got his surgery.
Obituary: Tom Green / Christian television program producer (http://www.post-gazette.com/obituaries/20030709green0709p3.asp)




Also many people like me if we really needed immediate health care could get Hill Burton or some other assistance so I don't see a need to totally reform health care to socialized medicine. Maybe make it more easily accessible to people who don't qualify for anything because they make a little over the poverty level.

I can give you hundreds of links to hundreds of stories As can we about people who have suffered due to failures in the US healthcare system. That doesn't bring us any closer to a solution. Just look on this board about people asking questions that they should be asking their doctors, those people are mostly americans who, for some reason, cannot get to see a doctor.

NK ANd Tickle,

Yes, there are many cases where health care in the USA has failed people. But please keep in mind WHAT IT WAS THAT FAILED.

In most cases I have read about, the failure in the US system was because these people didn't have private insurance and were reliant on government intervention through Medicare, Medicaid or the VA system... and the government systems failed to cover the gaps.

Private insurance didn't fail them because these people never had private insurance to begin with. Private insurance did exactly what it was supposed to do... cover those who paid for it. There was no failure in the private system.

Or, if there was a failure in the private system, the government systems are supposed to kick in, and they didn't.

The failure was in the GOVERNMENT systems that were supposed to help those most in need of coverage and didn't do so. That is what Medicare and Medicaid were designed to do, and in the cases cited, it failed to do so.

So, again, if the private insurance system did exactly what it was supposed to do and covered the people it was supposed to cover (the 85-95% of the US population who pay for it), and government insurance FAILED to cover those it was supposed to cover (the 5-15% not covered by private insurance), why would we want to put our trust in the system that failed? Especially if, when looking at statistical data from other countries, we find that the larger and more powerful the government system, the more chance of failures within that system.

Elliot

Also many people like me if we really needed immediate health care could get Hill Burton or some other assistance so I don't see a need to totally reform health care to socialized medicine. Maybe make it more easily accessible to people who don't qualify for anything because they make a little over the poverty level.

NoHelp4U,

Medicare covers those up to 150% of poverty level. Medicaid covers anyone with a disability.

So the system is SUPPOSED to be a lot easier than it used to be.

Yet it fails anyway.

A bigger government system would just fail bigger.

Elliot

Hmmm...


The incoming president of the Canadian Medical Association says this country's health-care system is sick and doctors need to develop a plan to cure it. (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=cp_x081502A.xml&show_article=1)

Dr. Anne Doig says patients are getting less than optimal care and she adds that physicians from across the country - who will gather in Saskatoon on Sunday for their annual meeting - recognize that changes must be made.

"We all agree that the system is imploding, we all agree that things are more precarious than perhaps Canadians realize," Doing said in an interview with The Canadian Press.

"We know that there must be change," she said. "We're all running flat out, we're all just trying to stay ahead of the immediate day-to-day demands."

The pitch for change at the conference is to start with a presentation from Dr. Robert Ouellet, the current president of the CMA, who has said there's a critical need to make Canada's health-care system patient-centred. He will present details from his fact-finding trip to Europe in January, where he met with health groups in England, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands and France.

His thoughts on the issue are already clear. Ouellet has been saying since his return that "a health-care revolution has passed us by," that it's possible to make wait lists disappear while maintaining universal coverage and "that competition should be welcomed, not feared."

In other words, Ouellet believes there could be a role for private health-care delivery within the public system.

He has also said the Canadian system could be restructured to focus on patients if hospitals and other health-care institutions received funding based on the patients they treat, instead of an annual, lump- sum budget. This "activity-based funding" would be an incentive to provide more efficient care, he has said.

Doig says she doesn't know what a proposed "blueprint" toward patient- centred care might look like when the meeting wraps up Wednesday. She'd like to emerge with clear directions about where the association should focus efforts to direct change over the next few years. She also wants to see short-term, medium-term and long-term goals laid out.

"A short-term achievable goal would be to accelerate the process of getting electronic medical records into physicians' offices," she said. "That's one I think ought to be a priority and ought to be achievable."

A long-term goal would be getting health systems "talking to each other," so information can be quickly shared to help patients.

Doig, who has had a full-time family practice in Saskatoon for 30 years, acknowledges that when physicians have talked about changing the health-care system in the past, they've been accused of wanting an American-style structure. She insists that's not the case.

"It's not about choosing between an American system or a Canadian system," said Doig. "The whole thing is about looking at what other people do."

"That's called looking at the evidence, looking at how care is delivered and how care is paid for all around us (and) then saying 'Well, OK, that's good information. How do we make all of that work in the Canadian context? What do the Canadian people want?' "

Doig says there are some "very good things" about Canada's health-care system, but she points out that many people have stories about times when things didn't go well for them or their family.

"(Canadians) have to understand that the system that we have right now - if it keeps on going without change - is not sustainable," said Doig.

"They have to look at the evidence that's being presented and will be presented at (the meeting) and realize what Canada's doctors are trying to tell you, that you can get better care than what you're getting and we all have to participate in the discussion around how do we do that and of course how do we pay for it."

Canada's health care system "imploding?" Could it be true? As I've posted numerous times, private practices are flourishing in Canada and the incoming CMA says Canada needs to welcome more private competition. Duh?

Hmmm...



Canada's health care system "imploding?" Could it be true? As I've posted numerous times, private practices are flourishing in Canada and the incoming CMA says Canada needs to welcome more private competition. Duh?

Why is everyone talking about the Canadian system? Just about every western nation on earth except for the United States has national health care. How about Germany, England, Denmark, etc. One would think that being so innovative, America could take to good points from each of the different systems and put together one that would top them all. Right now, America has the worst system, with highest costs, 50 million without access, and falling outcomes. If you buy the media BS about most Americans liking our system, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

Why is everyone talking about the Canadian system? Just about every western nation on earth except for the United States has national health care. How about Germany, England, Denmark, etc.? One would think that being so innovative, America could take to good points from each of the different systems and put together one that would top them all. Right now, America has the worst system, with highest costs, 50 million without access, and falling outcomes. If you buy the media BS about most Americans liking our system, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

amdeist, I so like your attitude regarding healthcare. What a great answer :D

Tick

Why is everyone talking about the Canadian system?

It came from a Canadian news source so why not? Canada has been held up as an example from both sides, and if they are admitting their system is "imploding" and "unsustainable," why would we want to take that route?


Just about every western nation on earth except for the United States has national health care. How about Germany, England, Denmark, etc.

Isn't being different part of what makes America great? Why should we be like everyone else, who in varying degrees are moving back toward more privatized health care.


One would think that being so innovative, America could take to good points from each of the different systems and put together one that would top them all.

Because the fact of the matter is, the people in power now are not the least bit interested in coming up with something good, they are interested in power. What they claim to want to do makes no sense whatsoever, cut costs while expanding benefits without raising taxes. Use a public option to make private insurers honest and more competitive?

As Tim Pawlenty put it (http://www.startribune.com/politics/state/53365007.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD 3aPc:_Yyc:aUUT):


"The entitlement programs that the federal government currently runs are all broke and headed to bankruptcy," he told more than 100 people, many of them local officeholders. "Medicare is bankrupt or essentially bankrupt. Medicaid is essentially bankrupt. Social Security is essentially bankrupt."

"Why in the heck would we give the federal government another entitlement program to match on that track record?"

Talk about a bridge in Brooklyn to sell.


Right now, America has the worst system, with highest costs, 50 million without access, and falling outcomes. If you buy the media BS about most Americans liking our system, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

I invite you to substantiate both premises.

Why is everyone talking about the Canadian system? Just about every western nation on earth except for the United States has national health care. How about Germany, England, Denmark, etc.? One would think that being so innovative, America could take to good points from each of the different systems and put together one that would top them all. Right now, America has the worst system, with highest costs, 50 million without access, and falling outcomes. If you buy the media BS about most Americans liking our system, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

OK, by their own admission the Canadian system is in shambles. The system in the UK is far worse that the Canadians have it. Germany is nearly bankrupt as a nation. Their health care system is not talked about much because it does not work any better than the Canadian or the Brits.
There is one single reason people come to the US to practice medicine and to receive health care. Even if it is out of their own pockets. Our system works!
In those countries with rationed (read national) systems doctors are robots and are not allowed enough time to deal with their patients, patients are told by bureaucrats if they can have certain tests or if they are too old to receive care. What is so hard for people to understand, the majority of Americans understand that if the government runs health care like they have Freddie Mac, Fannie May, Amtrack, the post office, Nobama Motors, Medicare, Social Security, that a nationalized health care system would be bankrupt in less than five years. Then the real cuts in care would start coming out. Like 50 dollars for the drugs to kill people vs the 5000 dollars to save their lives.

I invite you to substantiate both premises.[/QUOTE]

Read the Commonwealth Fund report on healthcare in the United States. It substantiates both premises. We have a bad system, and without change, we are going bankrupt. That is a fact! What's your answer? Let Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security die, and everyone fend for themselves. You won't have to worry about a war in the Middle East. You will have one right here, and it won't be Muslims you are fighting; it will be Americans.

OK, by their own admission the Canadian system is in shambles. The system in the UK is far worse that the Canadians have it. Germany is nearly bankrupt as a nation. Their health care system is not talked about much because it does not work any better than the Canadian or the Brits.
There is one single reason people come to the US to practice medicine and to receive health care. Even if it is out of their own pockets. Our system works!
In those countries with rationed (read national) systems doctors are robots and are not allowed enough time to deal with their patients, patients are told by bureaucrats if they can have certain tests or if they are too old to receive care. What is so hard for people to understand, the majority of Americans understand that if the government runs health care like they have Freddie Mac, Fannie May, Amtrack, the post office, Nobama Motors, Medicare, Social Security, that a nationalized health care system would be bankrupt in less than five years. Then the real cuts in care would start coming out. Like 50 dollars for the drugs to kill people vs the 5000 dollars to save their lives.


Hey, wait a minute ! I am Canadian, I am happy with my healthcare, my mom at 95 was happy too. Doctor is great. Our hospital is great. I see no problem at my age. Its imploding, well, I would never know it and neither do any of my clients who have wonderful OHIP coverage and are well cared for.

If you system works, how come so many people have to go bankrupt from treatment and hospital stays !

Tick

Hey, wait a minute ! I am Canadian, I am happy with my healthcare, my mom at 95 was happy too. Doctor is great. Our hospital is great. I see no problem at my age. Its imploding, well, I would never know it and neither do any of my clients who have wonderful OHIP coverage and are well cared for.

If you system works, how come so many people have to go bankrupt from treatment and hospital stays !

tick
Go back and reread post number 312 for you answer. Your own head of the organization says it is broken.

Dr. Doig is not the 'head' of OHIP, 450donn, she is the new President of the Canadian Medical Association which is a published journal.

Tick

I invite you to substantiate both premises.Read the Commonwealth Fund report on healthcare in the United States. It substantiates both premises.

No, I asked you to substantiate it, specifically that "America has the worst system" and that Americans don't like our system. Explain, furnish quotes, links, etc.


We have a bad system, and without change, we are going bankrupt. That is a fact!

What is a fact is Medicare and Medicaid are going bankrupt, I believe to the tune of $26 trillion of unfunded mandates is what I read. How is Obamacare going to save Medicare and Medicaid while cutting costs, expanding benefits to everyone and without raising taxes on the middle class?


What's your answer? Let Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security die, and everyone fend for themselves. You won't have to worry about a war in the Middle East. You will have one right here, and it won't be Muslims you are fighting; it will be Americans.

You assume way too much about me, I prefer people NOT answer for me. Oh and, the scare tactics... love it.

I invite you to substantiate both premises.

Read the Commonwealth Fund report on healthcare in the United States. It substantiates both premises. We have a bad system, and without change, we are going bankrupt. That is a fact! What's your answer? Let Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security die, and everyone fend for themselves. You won't have to worry about a war in the Middle East. You will have one right here, and it won't be Muslims you are fighting; it will be Americans.

I briefly looked at the report and the tables:

Lets look at hospital readmission rates.
I don't know the rates of COPD or CHF in other countries, but it is the nature of these chronic disease to take a natural course of steady step wise decline in the endstages of the disease. What cannot be measured or shown by economic metrics is how many admissions were delayed or prevented due to good chronic disease management.

A simple way of IMPROVING the STATISTICAL numbers on hospital readmission rates or rates of admissions from nursing homes would be for a greater percentage of these folks to be DNR and in hospice care.

If you are on supplemental oxygen round the clock due to chronic heart or lung disease, it may be better to keep you comfortable at the end and treat you with morphine, but that is a decision left to whom? The government? Or the doctor in consultation with the patient or power of attorney. Yes, some may question readmitting the same demented person from the nursing home with dehydration or urinary tract infections or infected bed sores, but that person is someone's spouse, or parent or grandparent. Nursing homes may send them to the hospital to die because they don't want there own numbers to look bad, or that person is still a "full code." The ER and the admitting doctor cannot exactly refuse admission.


Another metric NOT MENTIONED is what are the economic costs of malpractice, and how does that contribute to increasing costs?






G&P

Yeah the President of the Canadian Medical Association obviously has no clue what she's talking about.

yeah the President of the Canadian Medical Association obviously has no clue what she's talking about.Hello tom:

Let me see. We've got Canadians who say they like their system... Then we've got right wing Americans who tell us the Canadians don't know what they're talking about...

ME?? I'm going to believe the people who actually participate in the system - not those who read about it.

excon

Hello tom:

Lemme see. We've got Canadians who say they like their system.... Then we've got right wing Americans who tell us the Canadians don't know what they're talking about....

ME???? I'm gonna believe the people who actually participate in the system - not those who read about it.

That's just it ex, we've been criticized for listening to "right wing Americans who tell us the Canadians don't know what they're talking about," but this is the incoming president of the Canadian Medical Association saying their system is "imploding" and "unsustainable." Is she just some right-wing American, or is she in a position to know?

Why is everyone talking about the Canadian system? Just about every western nation on earth except for the United States has national health care. How about Germany, England, Denmark, etc.? One would think that being so innovative, America could take to good points from each of the different systems and put together one that would top them all. Right now, America has the worst system, with highest costs, 50 million without access, and falling outcomes. If you buy the media BS about most Americans liking our system, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

First of all, can you name one health care system in any country that is NOT in financial trouble?

No, you can't, because they don't exist.

Can you name one health care system that doesn't have lines (queues) that force patients to wait LONGER than we wait for the same care here in the USA?

No, you can't, because they don't exist.

Can you name a single health care system that has BETTER PATIENT OUTCOMES than we get here in the USA?

No, you can't, because they don't exist.

Can you name a single health care system in which the government that runs that health care system has not limited access to care that we have normal access to, including medicines, procedures and diagnostic equipment?

No, you can't, because they don't exist.

So what points, exactly, should we be taking from these systems in order to improve our system without creating a negative effect within our system? Can you name one?

No, you can't, because they don't exist.

Can you name one health care system that doesn't have lines (queues) that force patients to wait LONGER than we wait for the same care here in the USA?

No, you can't, because they don't exist.Hello again, El:

Can you name one Canadian who isn't eligible to wait in line for medical care?? No you can't, because they don't exist..

Can you name one American who isn't eligible to wait in line for medical care?? Yup. We got 47 MILLION of them...

You tell me what's better. Oh, never mind. I don't think you have a clue.

excon

PS> By the way, it's easy to have short lines when you KEEP 47 MILLION people OUT of them...

yeah the President of the Canadian Medical Association obviously has no clue what she's talking about.

Don't put words in my mouth, I didn't say that. She was only one of many doctors attending a general meeting in Saskatoon on August l7th regarding HINI virus and how it will be handled by Canadians.

We are all wondering on this North American continent how it will effect everyone, so naturally healthcare comes into the picture as well.

I for one will not be waiting in line for a flu shot for this virus, niether will thousands of Canadians; we will be receiving it already paid for. I don't what you will be doing when you find out you have to pay out of pocket for the shot that will deter HINI virus to protect you.

You guys have been rehashing this issue for months now and not coming up with any pertinent information, just dragging up old stories.

Tick

And what exactly is so bad about PAYING for something out of pocket?

Is it just healthcare that people expect NOT to pay for? How about food, clothing , or shelter, do people pay for these?

Maybe it is the fact that people DON'T pay for the actual cost of the service, that contributes greatly to overall healthcare costs.





G&P

and what exactly is so bad about PAYING for something out of pocket?Hello again, in:

It's not BAD, but it DOES mean that lots of people won't get the shots... I know YOU'RE a responsible adult, and you're going to pay to get immunized, but is EVERYBODY in your family as responsible as you?? Doesn't it trouble you knowing that your little nieces and nephews, who's parents didn't immunize them, are in the playground with kids who are exposed??

I know that I wouldn't like it... It's really a matter of SELF interest. That's a concept that should resonate with Republicans... It has nothing to do with being altruistic...

It's the same issue as granting illegal aliens drivers licenses... No, I have no desire to see that illegal aliens get where they're going... I don't care about them. But, I DO have an interest in my family driving on the roads with LICENSED and INSURED drivers...

It's kind of like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

excon

and what exactly is so bad about PAYING for something out of pocket?

Is it just healthcare that people expect NOT to pay for? How about food, clothing , or shelter, do people pay for these?

Maybe it is the fact that people DON'T pay for the actual cost of the service, that contributes greatly to overall healthcare costs.





G&P

Get off your soapbox. I have paid for my healthcare, by employee deductions since I was l8 years old (I am now 67 and on my way to a healthy 70 because of my healthcare system). Everyone paid that way... do you get it... we paid for the healthcare. Now individuals don't pay, but the employer pays for them. It WAS NOT EVER FREE

An irritated tick

Can you name one American who isn't eligible to wait in line for medical care???? Yup. We got 47 MILLION of them....

No, we have 47 million who don't have health insurance, many of their own choosing. We don't have ANYONE ineligible for medical care.

We don't have ANYONE ineligible for medical care.Hello again, Steve:

If everyone is eligible for medical care, why would ANYONE buy insurance?

excon

Because the people that have insurance do not fall in the income guidelines for medical grants and other programs.

Hello N0:

So the FREE medical care is only FREE as long as you fall within the income guidelines. If you don't, and you choose not to buy insurance, do you get this FREE medical care too? If you do, I ask again, why would anyone buy insurance?

If you don't, then you go without.

excon

I think my food and housing is too expensive. I think the government should provide that to me for "free" .

Hello again, Steve:

If everyone is eligible for medical care, why would ANYONE buy insurance?

excon

Have we as a country forgotten the purpose of insurance? Seems we have, it was not meant to pay for our every medical need, but to "insure" against catastrophic loss was it not? Those greedy insurance companies who dare to think they should be profitable to stay in business, and those butchers ripping out kid's tonsils and cutting off limbs unnecessarily so they can bill more have ruined all that haven't they?

I've asked several times and no one has been able to answer my question, who goes without medical care in this country?

So the FREE medical care is only FREE as long as you fall within the income guidelines. If you don't, and you choose not to buy insurance, do you get this FREE medical care too? If you do, I ask again, why would anyone buy insurance?

You've actually stumbled on the problem with the government heavily subsidizing or providing such things for free. If we can get it for free why would we buy insurance? If the government will take care of me why should I take care of myself? If it's cheaper for the government to provide insurance for my employees why should I provide it? And that is the reason the public option will end private health insurance, you've just shown us how.

My question is, if someone CAN furnish their own insurance, CAN furnish their own food and housing, etc. why shouldn't they? I want able-bodied people to get off their a$$es and stop sucking the rest of us dry. Then we'd have a broader base of funding to take care of those who really DO need the help. I think that's a GOOD thing, much better than adding millions to the list for government handouts.

Hello again, Steve:

How about this?? Don't you want to see American jobs return home? Don't you want to see a resurgence of the American car?? I do.

It ain't going to happen as long as GM spends more per car on HEALTH CARE, than it does on steel... THAT'S what they're doing.. Nope, it AIN'T going to happen. You, the apparent supporter of small business, want to strap them with costs their competitors don't have... Why would you do that?

excon

I think my food and housing is too expensive. I think the government should provide that to me for "free" .

That is a really intelligent and mature response.

Tick

Get off your soapbox. I have paid for my healthcare, by employee deductions since I was l8 years old (I am now 67 and on my way to a healthy 70 because of my healthcare system). Everyone paid that way...do you get it.....we paid for the healthcare. Now individuals dont pay, but the employer pays for them. It WAS NOT EVER FREE

an irritated tick

Link me an employer that pays 100% of employees healthcare: no co-pays, no premiums deducted?

Yes you paid and I am paying taxes to pay for healthcare of others. That is the ponzi scheme that Medicare Medicaid and social security are. I suspect that the big government koolaid that you have been drinking is irritating you. And it irritates those of us opposed to further government intervention In healthcare that is a public option.


G&P

Did you miss my avy where it says I am Canadian, inthebox. How could I possbly link you to an employer and access their records to prove to you how OHIP is paid. I told you how OHIP was paid, I paid it by employee deductions for years, saying it was never free for us.

And it irritates you, sorry about that. Read on:

The Ontario Health Premium—who pays?

BY MICHAEL G. SHERRARD

(DCN SPECIAL)

One of the most hotly contested issues of the day is whether the employer is required to pay the new Ontario Health Premium (OHP) on behalf of its bargaining unit employees.

To date, there are arbitral decisions coming down on both sides of this issue.
History

In 1969, the Health Services Insurance Act, 1968- 1969 (Ont.) came into effect. This act established the Ontario Health Services Insurance Plan which later became known as the Ontario Health Insurance Plan (OHIP). Under the OHIP employees were liable for the payment of health premiums, and large employers were required to make payroll deductions from employees' salaries.

Effective January 1990, the Employer Health Tax (EHT) came into force, which provides generally for the payment of a health tax by an employer based upon its payroll costs. Accordingly, since January 1990 employees have not been personally liable to pay premiums for health care.

Michael G. Sherrard

The OHP was introduced as part of the 2004 Ontario Budget as a means to supplement funding of health care in Ontario. It is a personal levy placed on individuals based upon their total taxable income. It has not replaced, but is in addition to, the EHT.

Despite the abolition of the OHIP premiums and their replacement with the EHT, many collective agreements continue to contain language that requires the employer to pay all, or part, of the “OHIP premiums.”

ms tickle

It really is amazing how many NON Americans have chimed into this debate trying to convince us (the USA) that their system is the best and that we are fools for not falling in lock step for it. Why is that?

It really is amazing how many NON Americans have chimed into this debate trying to convince us (the USA) that their system is the best and that we are fools for not falling in lock step for it. Why is that?

I couldn't give a rats behind what happens to your non existent healthcare system, 450donn. I think most Canadians here get really upset when we keep telling you we are happy with our healthcare system, and you say we aren't. Now why is that ?

ms. tickle

The whole legislation needs to be scrapped and start over.

We probably do need govt guidelines, but NOT govt control.

We need national tort reform.

We need cooperatives that are NOT govt run.

We need health savings programs.

We need to let the doctors come up with innovative plans without being stifled by some bureaurocracy.

Just a few things.

Indeed ms tickle my response was intelligent mature and to the point. If I'm entitled or have a "right" to free health care then certainly by extension my food and shelter are of equal importance to the quality of my life .Aren't they ?

I for one will not be waiting in line for a flu shot for this virus, niether will thousands of Canadians; we will be receiving it already paid for. I don't what you will be doing when you find out you have to pay out of pocket for the shot that will deter HINI virus to protect you.

You guys have been rehashing this issue for months now and not coming up with any pertinent information, just dragging up old stories.


I guess this is another oldie but goodie .
Thousands of surgeries may be cut in Metro Vancouver, leaked paper reveals (http://www.vancouversun.com/story_print.html?id=1878506&sponsor)

I don't believe those cuts happened, tomder, at least nothing reached the eastern papers regarding this so called 'leak' and gee, as you know I am in healthcare, don't you think I would know of this too >>??

Try again, you are amusing

Ms tickle

Hello again, Steve:

How about this?? Don't you want to see American jobs return home? Don't you want to see a resurgence of the American car?? I do.

It ain't going to happen as long as GM spends more per car on HEALTH CARE, than it does on steel... THAT'S what they're doing.. Nope, it AIN'T going to happen.

They've also been paying people $25 an hour to do nothing but wait for a chance to work again. What stupid, moronic imbecile signed off on all this nonsense? Could it have anything to do with the unions?? Yeah, they're great for the worker but they don't do a lot to make the company competitive again. As long as Toyota, Honda and others crank out better cars cheaper, GM is screwed.


You, the apparent supporter of small business, want to strap them with costs their competitors don't have... Why would you do that?

Is it their competitor's fault that GM is strapped with all those costs? Is it their competitor's fault they haven't produced a better product?

I don't believe those cuts happened, tomder, at least nothing reached the eastern papers regarding this so called 'leak' and gee, as you know I am in healthcare, don't you think I would know of this too >>??

Maybe you just don't read the Canadian press. I can link to at least 35 other sources like Globe and Mail and the Canadian Press if you like. I have no doubt that you are part of the unionized health care workforce that has a vested interest in the status quo there .

I read up on this Adrian Dix fellow . It appears that every time he warns of the system the Liberals there call him a fear-monger . I guess that is universal liberal-speak. He said the cuts were delivered as a fact sheet presented at the health authority's board meeting Thursday . Is he lying and fear-mongering ? When he previously warned about this he was told that what he was citing was only a "planning document" . A couple weeks later these documents were presented as fact sheets .

The fact sheet calls for operating room capacity for elective surgeries to be reduced 10 to 15 per cent for the rest of the fiscal year, in addition to slowdowns and during the Winter Olympics in February and March.

Dix's big charge is that this information about deep cuts and budget shortfalls was withheld from the public before last May's provincial election .

I couldnt give a rats behind what happens to your non existent healthcare system, 450donn. I think most Canadians here get really upset when we keep telling you we are happy with our healthcare system, and you say we arent. Now why is that ?

ms. tickle

And I can site you relatives living in Ontario that hate to even attempt to make an appointment. When right across the border, not 15 minutes away other relatives can get medical appointments when needed.
Like someone else mentioned, you have a vested interest in status quo because of your union? If our system is so "non existent" then why is it that your fellow countrymen are streaming across the border to get surgeries and pay for it out of their own pockets that are not available to them for one reason or another on your side of the border.
No one will convince you that a government mandated system is doom to failure sooner or later. Because it is obvious that you are like an ostrich. So there is no point debating it with you any longer.

450donn, no hard feelings, but you have to realize I have lived for 67 years, for most of them knowing I can go to the doctor and have my aches and pains treated and just present my health card. When my mom became ill at 85, it was the same for her, her treatment was exceptional by her doctor and the hospital. This was only l0 years ago. My son had exemplary treatment and a defibrillator installed at Toronto General Hospital... presented health card. He has to have a check up every six months to make sure the defib is operating correctly, without it, his heart would stop.

I am not even semi retired yet and still working at 67, diabetic, high blood pressure, etc. and my prescriptions, for any one of them are $6.00 each. I never have a problem getting to see my doctor, yet only a check up every 6 months.

So you see where I am coming from. It will go on like this hopefully until I don't need services any longer and I only hope till after my son doesn't need them anymore.

I wish you guys all the best with your endeavour to get your healthcare settled away

I had no idea I was debating.

Kindest regards,

Tick