Christ died for our sins -- ALL of our sins past, present, and future here on earth. Why then do Catholic Christians believe a place like purgatory is necessary?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031).

The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.



Two Judgments


When we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment. Scripture says that "it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27). We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill. We know at once what our final destiny will be. At the end of time, when Jesus returns, there will come the general judgment to which the Bible refers, for example, in Matthew 25:31-32: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." In this general judgment all our sins will be publicly revealed (Luke 12:2–5).

Augustine said, in The City of God, that "temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment" (21:13). It is between the particular and general judgments, then, that the soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: "I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper" (Luke 12:59).



Money, Money, Money


One argument anti-Catholics often use to attack purgatory is the idea that the Catholic Church makes money from promulgating the doctrine. Without purgatory, the claim asserts, the Church would go broke. Any number of anti-Catholic books claim the Church owes the majority of its wealth to this doctrine. But the numbers just don't add up.

When a Catholic requests a memorial Mass for the dead—that is, a Mass said for the benefit of someone in purgatory—it is customary to give the parish priest a stipend, on the principles that the laborer is worth his hire (Luke 10:7) and that those who preside at the altar share the altar's offerings (1 Cor. 9:13–14). In the United States, a stipend is commonly around five dollars; but the indigent do not have to pay anything. A few people, of course, freely offer more. This money goes to the parish priest, and priests are only allowed to receive one such stipend per day. No one gets rich on five dollars a day, and certainly not the Church, which does not receive the money anyway.

But look at what happens on a Sunday. There are often hundreds of people at Mass. In a crowded parish, there may be thousands. Many families and individuals deposit five dollars or more into the collection basket; others deposit less. A few give much more. A parish might have four or five or six Masses on a Sunday. The total from the Sunday collections far surpasses the paltry amount received from the memorial Masses.



A Catholic "Invention"?


Fundamentalists may be fond of saying the Catholic Church "invented" the doctrine of purgatory to make money, but they have difficulty saying just when. Most professional anti-Catholics—the ones who make their living attacking "Romanism"—seem to place the blame on Pope Gregory the Great, who reigned from A.D. 590–604.

But that hardly accounts for the request of Monica, mother of Augustine, who asked her son, in the fourth century, to remember her soul in his Masses. This would make no sense if she thought her soul would not benefit from prayers, as would be the case if she were in hell or in the full glory of heaven.

Nor does ascribing the doctrine to Gregory explain the graffiti in the catacombs, where Christians during the persecutions of the first three centuries recorded prayers for the dead. Indeed, some of the earliest Christian writings outside the New Testament, like the Acts of Paul and Thecla and the Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity (both written during the second century), refer to the Christian practice of praying for the dead. Such prayers would have been offered only if Christians believed in purgatory, even if they did not use that name for it. (See Catholic Answers' Fathers Know Best tract The Existence of Purgatory for quotations from these and other early Christian sources.)



Why No Protests?


Whenever a date is set for the "invention" of purgatory, you can point to historical evidence to show the doctrine was in existence before that date. Besides, if at some point the doctrine was pulled out of a clerical hat, why does ecclesiastical history record no protest against it?

A study of the history of doctrines indicates that Christians in the first centuries were up in arms (sometimes quite literally) if anyone suggested the least change in beliefs. They were extremely conservative people who tested a doctrine's truth by asking, Was this believed by our ancestors? Was it handed on from the apostles? Surely belief in purgatory would be considered a great change, if it had not been believed from the first—so where are the records of protests?

They don't exist. There is no hint at all, in the oldest writings available to us (or in later ones, for that matter), that "true believers" in the immediate post-apostolic years spoke of purgatory as a novel doctrine. They must have understood that the oral teaching of the apostles, what Catholics call tradition, and the Bible not only failed to contradict the doctrine, but, in fact, confirmed it.

It is no wonder, then, that those who deny the existence of purgatory tend to touch upon only briefly the history of the belief. They prefer to claim that the Bible speaks only of heaven and hell. Wrong. It speaks plainly of a third condition, commonly called the limbo of the Fathers, where the just who had died before the redemption were waiting for heaven to be opened to them. After his death and before his resurrection, Christ visited those experiencing the limbo of the Fathers and preached to them the good news that heaven would now be opened to them (1 Pet. 3:19). These people thus were not in heaven, but neither were they experiencing the torments of hell.

Some have speculated that the limbo of the Fathers is the same as purgatory. This may or may not be the case. However, even if the limbo of the Fathers is not purgatory, its existence shows that a temporary, intermediate state is not contrary to Scripture. Look at it this way. If the limbo of the Fathers was purgatory, then this one verse directly teaches the existence of purgatory. If the limbo of the Fathers was a different temporary state, then the Bible at least says such a state can exist. It proves there can be more than just heaven and hell.



"Purgatory Not in Scripture"


Some Fundamentalists also charge, as though it actually proved something, "The word purgatory is nowhere found in Scripture." This is true, and yet it does not disprove the existence of purgatory or the fact that belief in it has always been part of Church teaching. The words Trinity and Incarnation aren't in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Likewise, Scripture teaches that purgatory exists, even if it doesn't use that word and even if 1 Peter 3:19 refers to a place other than purgatory.

Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one's sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man's work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man's work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can't refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can't be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

Then, of course, there is the Bible's approval of prayers for the dead: "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.

Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner's Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.



Why Go To Purgatory?


Why would anyone go to purgatory? To be cleansed, for "nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]" (Rev. 21:27). Anyone who has not been completely freed of sin and its effects is, to some extent, "unclean." Through repentance he may have gained the grace needed to be worthy of heaven, which is to say, he has been forgiven and his soul is spiritually alive. But that's not sufficient for gaining entrance into heaven. He needs to be cleansed completely.

Fundamentalists claim, as an article in Jimmy Swaggart's magazine, The Evangelist, put it, that "Scripture clearly reveals that all the demands of divine justice on the sinner have been completely fulfilled in Jesus Christ. It also reveals that Christ has totally redeemed, or purchased back, that which was lost. The advocates of a purgatory (and the necessity of prayer for the dead) say, in effect, that the redemption of Christ was incomplete.. . It has all been done for us by Jesus Christ, there is nothing to be added or done by man."

It is entirely correct to say that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross. But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us. Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time through, among other things, the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy. Sanctification involves suffering (Rom. 5:3–5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven. Purgatory is the final phase of Christ's applying to us the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross.



No Contradiction


The Fundamentalist resistance to the biblical doctrine of purgatory presumes there is a contradiction between Christ's redeeming us on the cross and the process by which we are sanctified. There isn't. And a Fundamentalist cannot say that suffering in the final stage of sanctification conflicts with the sufficiency of Christ's atonement without saying that suffering in the early stages of sanctification also presents a similar conflict. The Fundamentalist has it backward: Our suffering in sanctification does not take away from the cross. Rather, the cross produces our sanctification, which results in our suffering, because "[f]or the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness" (Heb. 12:11).



Nothing Unclean


Purgatory makes sense because there is a requirement that a soul not just be declared to be clean, but actually be clean, before a man may enter into eternal life. After all, if a guilty soul is merely "covered," if its sinful state still exists but is officially ignored, then it is still a guilty soul. It is still unclean.

Catholic theology takes seriously the notion that "nothing unclean shall enter heaven." From this it is inferred that a less than cleansed soul, even if "covered," remains a dirty soul and isn't fit for heaven. It needs to be cleansed or "purged" of its remaining imperfections. The cleansing occurs in purgatory. Indeed, the necessity of the purging is taught in other passages of Scripture, such as 2 Thessalonians 2:13, which declares that God chose us "to be saved through sanctification by the Spirit." Sanctification is thus not an option, something that may or may not happen before one gets into heaven. It is an absolute requirement, as Hebrews 12:14 states that we must strive "for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord."

Source: Purgatory (http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp)

WG,
To answer your question is sort of hard, since the word "purgatory" is not used in the bible. But the word "hell" is used six times in my reference book. So based on that, there is no scriptural basis for a place called purgatory that I can find.

The "trinity" is not in the Bible either, but most Christians believe in it :)

On the contrary, there is!
Mt28;19 2Cor13:14
Site me any place in the scriptures where purgatory is specifically mentioned? Like I said before there is NONE in my Bible. According to my American dictionary, "Roman Catholic Theology,condition or place of purification after death from venial sins."
So this is a theology trumped up by the Roman Catholic Church to make people still living feel good about their dead loved ones that were not saved and therefore doomed to everlasting damnation in the lake of fire as foretold in Rev 20.

??

I'm not following you.

I grant that the word "Purgatory" is not in the Bible.
"Trinity" is not in the Bible either.

So what's your point?

The question was why Catholic Christians believe what they do about Purgatory.

I gave reference to why.

If someone asked why we Christians believe in the "Trinity", I could help with that too.

... it is true that NEITHER term is in the Bible. But that's OK, right?

And again my answer to WG's question is that there is no scriptural basis for the teaching of purgatory. The secular dictionary I quoted from even mentions that it is a Roman Catholic belief. So I will give you that your answer is useful for a Roman Catholic to understand the principals of this teaching. But there is still no scriptural basis for it, is there?

But that is not an answer to her question. Her question was why Catholic Christians believe what they do about "purgatory".

I gave an answer. That's what this website is about.

PS/Edit: Wondergirl, please forgive the digression. The post I posted answers (partially) your question. I say partially because entire books have been written on the subject...

I don't ask you (or anyone else) to accept it - I only gave it as a reply to your question of "why do Catholic Christians believe".

So Catholic Christians believe in purgatory because their catechism teaches it?

No. One who believes just because someone says so is not really "belief".

I fear that you did not read past the first paragraph.

Yes, the "Catechism" teaches it but that is not why we believe. The "Catechism" is only a summary of what we believe - it does just "fair to middlin'" as far as why we believe.

The Apostles hinted at it (the idea of what we today call "purgatory") and the early Church (after "the twelve") argued about it.

I fear that you did not read past the first paragraph.
Ya caught me! I'm at work -- read the first, then skimmed the rest so I wouldn't get fired for not cataloging books.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031).

I don't care about denomination specific teachings, but let's look at your other arguments:


The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.

Christians have no such concern:

Heb 1:1-4
1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
NKJV

Notice that Jesus by Himself pirged the sins of those who are saved. It is past tense because after He completed the work on the cross, it says that He sat down.


It is between the particular and general judgments, then, that the soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: "I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper" (Luke 12:59).


Luke 12:57-59
57 "Yes, and why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right? 58 When you go with your adversary to the magistrate, make every effort along the way to settle with him, lest he drag you to the judge, the judge deliver you to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59 I tell you, you shall not depart from there till you have paid the very last mite."
NKJV

This does not even need explanation. This has absolutely nothing to do with purgatory. The topic is about men using sound judgment - see verse 57.


Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins.

Matt 12:31-32
32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
NKJV

This speaks against the belief that we can pay for sins after death – there is no forgiveness after death, don't put your hope in paying for your sins in purgatory.


Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

1 Cor 3:11-16
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
NKJV

This refers to works. Works done for Christ will remain, but works done for other reason will not survive. This has nothing to do with purgatory. It has to do with works, not men being destroyed.


Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45).

2 Maccabees is not canonical and by internal evidence, is not the word of God:

2 Maccabees 15:38 If it is well told and to the point, that is what I myself desired. If it is poorly done and mediocre, it was the best that I could do.
NRSV

I understand this question is to go beyond ‘proof’ of Purgatory and seems to be asking why Catholics want to believe in purgatory.

Some, not all by any stretch of the imagination, believe that purgatory is a state of being” wherein Christ “removes…the remnants of imperfection” It is this grace whereby the soul is cleansed of sin and the effects of sin. Our faith holds, like the Jews, that to be in the presence of God one must be sacrificially clean without blemish. (Cf. Lv 21:17-23, 22:21) Further, God demands of us a perfect love, “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole strength. And these words which I command thee this day, shall be in thy heart” (Deu 6:5-6). The New Testament echoes this very same requirement for one’s entire love to be directed to God.

Even our works are to be tested for the love of God. The Holy Father John Paul II said that the “Apostle speaks of the value of each person's work which will be revealed on the day of judgement and says: "If the work which any man has built on the foundation [which is Christ] survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3: 14-15).

Others here have rightly pointed out that Christ is man’s intercessor functioning as the high priest sacrificing himself as compensation for our sins. (Cf. Heb 5: 7; 7: 25). “He is both priest and "victim of expiation" for the sins of the whole world (cf. 1 Jn 2: 2).” Being presented to God upon on death we are called to “cleanse ourselves from all defilement of the flesh and of the spirit, perfecting sanctification in the fear of God.”

In our worldly endeavors, we come into contact with sin. Sin is a moral evil that stains the soul, and afflicts the heart. But, those of us who merit entering into a communion with God are blessed to with the fullness of eternal life are united with the Church Suffering and the Church Triumphant through purgatory’s purification.

“The Church's teaching in this regard is unequivocal and was reaffirmed by the Second Vatican Council which teaches: "Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed (cf. Heb 9: 27), we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where ‘men will weep and gnash their teeth'” (Mt 22: 13 and 25: 30)" (Lumen gentium, n. 48).

Source: L'Osservatore Romano Weekly Edition in English Heaven: 28 July 1999, 7 Hell: 4 August 1999, 7 Purgatory: 11/18 August, 7


JoeT

Wondergirl
The Catholic Church teaches about purgatory because...
1. Holy Scripture indicates the existence of Purgatory.
2. The earliest Christians prayed for the dead in Purgatory.
The writings on the walls of the catacombs under Rome where the early Christians hid form their persecutors and worshipped there give testimony to that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Some, not all by any stretch of the imagination, believe that purgatory is a state of being” wherein Christ “removes…the remnants of imperfection” It is this grace whereby the soul is cleansed of sin and the effects of sin. Our faith holds, like the Jews, that to be in the presence of God one must be sacrificially clean without blemish.

But again,

Heb 1:1-4
1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
NKJV

Notice that Jesus by Himself purged the sins of those who are saved. It is past tense because after He completed the work on the cross, it says that He sat down.

From my perspective, when God did it all, finished the job, purged all my sins, that was good enough for me. Why would you think that you need to (or indeed even could) pay for sins already purged by Jesus on the cross?

But again,

Heb 1:1-4
1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
NKJV

Notice that Jesus by Himself purged the sins of those who are saved. It is past tense because after He completed the work on the cross, it says that He sat down.

From my perspective, when God did it all, finished the job, purged all my sins, that was good enough for me. Why would you think that you need to (or indeed even could) pay for sins already purged by Jesus on the cross?

The opening proposition confines us to the question of ” Why then do Catholic Christians believe a place like purgatory is necessary?” How does your response relate to the question?

JoeT

Tj3,
We do not have to pay for sins purged.
We need to have our sinful nature purged, cleaned.
Please read the excellent answers on why Purgatory previously give here again.
The explanation is there.
Fred

The opening proposition confines us to the question of ” Why then do Catholic Christians believe a place like purgatory is necessary?” How does your response relate to the question?



Because, if Jesus purged our sins on the cross, then why would you want to believe in something which is not scriptural and which is not required?

Tj3,
We do not have to pay for sins purged.
We need to have our sinful nature purged, cleaned.
Please read the excellent answers on why Purgatory previously give here again.
The explanation is there.
Fred

Fred,

Some place does not perfect us. Jesus took care of that on the cross:

Heb 10:12-14
12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
NKJV

Tj3,
We do not have to pay for sins purged.
We need to have our sinful nature purged, cleaned.
Please read the excellent answers on why Purgatory previously give here again.
The explanation is there.
Fred
So Jesus' death on the cross was just not enough to take away all sins.

Wondergirl,
OF COURSE what Jesus did was enough so that our sins could be forgiven.
But that is not what Purgatory is all about.
After our sins are forgiven we still have the tendency to sin some more,
It is that sinful nature that we morals have that needed to be cleansed.
Of course you don't need to believe in Purgatory, but if you are heaven bound you some day will by being there.
Keep in mind that the existence of Purgatory IS based o scripture.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

After our sins are forgiven we still have the tendency to sin some more,
It is that sinful nature that we morals have that needed to be cleansed.

So Jesus' sacrifice was okay for past sins but not for sins we will do in the future? He just can't make us totally saved and forgiven?

Wondergirl,
OF COURSE what Jesus did was enough so that our sins could be forgiven.
But that is not what Purgatory is all about.
After our sins are forgiven we still have the tendency to sin some more,
It is that sinful nature that we morals have that needed to be cleansed.

Fred, that was already addressed. Jesus said that He took care of that forever on the cross.



Keep in mind that the existence of Purgatory IS based o scripture.


You tell us that, but I have seen nothing regarding purgatory in scripture.

So Jesus' sacrifice was okay for past sins but not for sins we will do in the future? He just can't make us totally saved and forgiven?

He sure can!

1 John 1:7-8
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
NKJV

Wondergirl ,
If you do not confess your sins after they take place they will NOT be forgiven.
The Bible says that you must confess and ask for forgiveness.
Also Jesus has told us that If we do not forgive the sins others sin against us we will not be forgiven. That means EACH time that happens.
Jesus does not forgive sins we are going to do in the future ahead of time.
We must take care of that ourselves by confessing them with remorse and asking for forgiveness.
That is what the bible teaches so that is what I do.
I know of that bogus theology that all sins past and future are washed way with Christ's blood. I once believed that myself until I started studying and learning what the bible REALLY said about that.
We can not be forgiven then go on sinning without doing what is necessary to have all our sins forgiven as we go through this life.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Jesus does not forgive sins we are going to do in the future ahead of time.
We must take care of that ourselves by confessing them with remorse and asking for forgiveness.
So Jesus' sacrifice wasn't good enough; it went only so far? When push comes to shove, Christians have to save themselves?

Wondergirl,
I previously said that Yes Christ's sacrifice was good enough.
Please pay attention.
But the bible tells us clearly what we must do to get our sins forgiven by what Jesus did for us.
Please quit throwing that typical Protestant accusation at me for it is false.
Instead please try do understand what the all of what bible really says about getting our sins forgiven.
I'm going to bed now and I'll pray that the Holy Spirit opens you mind to all that the word of God has says ALL about forgiveness of sins.
Please and kindness,
Fred

Wondergirl,
I previously said that Yes Christ's sacrifice was good enough.
Please pay attention.
But the bible tells us clearly what we must do to get our sins forgiven by what Jesus did for us.
Please quit throwing that typical Protestant accusation at me for it is false.
Instead please try do understand what the all of what bible really says about getting our sins forgiven.
I'm going to bed now and I'll pray that the Holy Spirit opens you mind to all that the word of God has says ALL about forgiveness of sins.
Please and kindness,
Fred
I was simply going on and reacting to your words -- "I know of that bogus theology that all sins past and future are washed way with Christ's blood." So that means you are saying Jesus' sacrifice wasn't good enough.

Tj3,
We do not have to pay for sins purged.
We need to have our sinful nature purged, cleaned.
Please read the excellent answers on why Purgatory previously give here again.
The explanation is there.
Fred

Fred, I feel the idea of puratory is built by man's doubt and misunderstanding in Christ being worthy to wash us clean...

The state of purified souls is written in scripture. And does give the act of obedience being the way. Follow Christ!

We are told in faith we walk in Christ, and that we are temples of the Holy Spirit when we do the will of God, and Trust in God's Word. In the flesh of Christ which is The Word was the evident of all.

Just look at the example in prayer Christ taught us. Confess of sin and lead us from temptations... One must believe what he is praying, and the obedience it shows in righteousness when they pray. Prayer is valued in faith without sight knowingGod is with us and hears us. It shows love in God and for God.

Are Catholic servants of sin and unable to do righteousness?

( Romans 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness).

Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.


Confess Christ as worthy... forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But (you were) with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

1 Peter 1:22-23 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

That word lives within us when we walk in Christ.. It is what Paul speaks of by going beyond the principle doctrine into discerning right from wrong, and being righteous and holy.


1 Peter 1:14-15 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.


I Cor 10:5-6 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.



The babe is weak, and is known to give suck to deception. (Christ said it is the babe that gives suck, those are they whom we should cry for)

Hebrew 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

It is a sin to commit suicide.If I were to do so I would not go to heaven but because I was not truly evil I would not go to hell.

I would be in purgatory,until such time as I was purged of my sin.

It is a sin to commit suicide.If I were to do so I would not go to heaven but because I was not truly evil I would not go to hell.

I would be in purgatory,until such time as I was purged of my sin.

Artlady,

The conviction of the heart can (only) be judge by Christ.. A place can not save anyone.. It is Christ who determines their fate.

The scripture tells of the desire to want to be with the Father in heaven rather then here on earth. But we are told we are here to serve God, and do His will..

Satan tempation are powerful, and we need to trust in God and find strength in His way.

Artlady,

The conviction of the heart can (only) be judge by Christ.. A place can not save anyone.. It is Christ who determines their fate.

The scripture tells of the desire to want to be with the Father in heaven rather then here on earth. But we are told we are here to serve God, and do His will..

Satan tempation are powerful, and we need to trust in God and find strength in His way.

Thank-you.I appreciate it.

So Jesus' sacrifice wasn't good enough; it went only so far? When push comes to shove, Christians have to save themselves?

I find this way of putting it to be more than a little counterintuitive and even a bit tendentious (by design, perhaps?). The question isn't whether Christ's sacrifice was "good enough"; I can't imagine anyone who'd claim that it wasn't. The question is, rather, what is God's plan for salvation and how does that play itself out?

We know that Christ died for our sins, all of our sins. He died to bring the possibility and hope for salvation. But his death and resurrection isn't sufficient to save us all--and few people actually think otherwise. You yourself have acknowledged in an earlier post that we have to respond to Christ's sacrifice, we have to accept it. We have to have faith. Now how would you respond to an interlocutor who asked you whether you have thereby committed yourself to the claim that Christ's sacrifice wasn't "good enough"? I have in mind someone who favors the notion of apokatastasis, or universal salvation: Such a person might say that you, by requiring faith as an acceptance and acknowledgement of Christ's sacrifice, are thereby denying the sufficiency of that sacrifice to save all on its own. What would your response be? Well, one response you might think to offer is to say that Christ's sacrifice is indeed sufficient all on its own, but that by affirming the necessity of faith for salvation you are simply unpacking what that sacrifice is and means, that Christ died so that those who have faith in him and accept his sacrifice might be saved. To do so would be to see that sacrifice as itself a call in much the way that Catholics do: It is a sacrifice, but it is also a calling, an invitation.

That would be a perfectly fair mode of response on your part. As it is, I think, for Catholics to say not that the sacrifice on the Cross was in any way deficient, but that it is part of God's salvific plan for humanity, a plan which includes faith and works and the purification of the soul in preparation for union with the Divine in heaven. You might well disagree with any or all of that, to be sure, but to my ears at least the claim that saying any of that is tantamount to saying that Christ's sacrifice wasn't "good enough" sounds more like rhetorical jousting than anything else. Christ died on a certain day in a certain year. It is not the case that every human being who has lived between then and now is without sin (Scripture tells us that, in fact, no one is without sin). So Christ's sacrifice wasn't sufficient to rid all of humanity of sin. And while Christ conquered death, it is still the case that humans are born and die. So Christ's conquering death doesn't mean that there is no death. And Scripture tells us that we must be repentant, that we must ask for the forgiveness of our sins. So Christ's dying for the forgiveness of sins doesn't by itself grant the forgiveness of all of everybody's sins. The work of salvation begun on Calvary continues today as it has throughout the two thousand or so years since his death: In every one of us, the work of salvation continues. This is what it means to say that we, each of us, have to make a decision for ourselves, we must choose belief or disbelief, faith or faithlessness. There are many senses of "sufficient" in which Christ's sacrifice was entirely sufficient all on its own; and there are many senses of "sufficient" in which it isn't.

I don't take the doctrine of Purgatory to play the role of filling a psychological need. Were we to go down that path one could just as easily argue that the belief that nothing more is required of me than to affirm that Christ died for my sins fills a psychological need: It lets me feel like I'm off the hook, nothing is required of me, I'm done. Jesus died on such-and-such date thousands of years ago and I don't have to do a blessed thing to reap the rewards of that. I can see how this is psychologically satisfying. But that doesn't mean that I think people who hold to this view do so in order to satisfy an inner psychological craving to feel let off the hook. The same goes for Purgatory: I don't think people believe in Purgatory because it makes them feel good. I think people believe in Purgatory because it addresses some pretty important theological questions. We know that after the death of the body the soul lives on. And we know that the soul isn't just dormant, because we see two people flanking Jesus at the transfiguration whose bodies died long, long before. So they were somewhere. Jesus, after he died and before he was resurrected, preached the Gospel to those who had died. Where were they? In Hell? In Heaven? Moreover, we know that each of us dies a sinner. And we know that nothing impure can enter God's presence. So what happens between death and entering God's presence that purifies us?

Now reasonable people can disagree about the answers to these questions, of course. But the questions aren't dumb ones, and the doctrine of Purgatory as a response to them isn't dumb either. And it doesn't evacuate the Crucifixion of its meaning or salvific power. In fact, it takes that meaning and salvific power for granted. It rather acknowledges that the work of salvation isn't complete until the final Judgment--the work of salvation didn't end on Golgotha.

Catholics believe that there are those who have died and are with God. And Catholics sometimes ask them to pray to the Father on their behalf, this in the belief that they are not dead but are in fact alive in Christ and are with the Father even now. Also in the belief that God looks favorably on the prayers of those who serve and have served him well. But Catholics also believe that there are those who have died and who are not with the Father but who will be, who are even now being prepared to enter into his presence. These are people who had faith and accepted Christ's sacrifice but who fell asleep in the Lord as sinners. Catholics believe that God honors his promises to these people and that they will not be cast out of the Kingdom of Heaven. Catholics believe that Christ ministers to their souls in order to bring them the rest of the way, in order to purify them and make them ready for the last leg of their journey home.

As I say, reasonable people can take a different view. But I don't find the objection that Purgatory isn't mentioned in Scripture to be at all compelling. One reason is that it is in some canons of Scripture, so that just relocates the issue: One must then have a principled case to make for the exclusion of one or another book from the canon of Scripture. But since the canon of Scripture has always been a pretty fluid thing, this isn't likely to settle very much, in my opinion. Another reason is that the absence of a doctrine from the Bible isn't proof of the error of that doctrine. Not by a long shot, in fact (see Rick's remarks concerning the doctrine of the Trinity). If one wants to pursue this line, again the issue is going to be relocated to a principled defense of the doctrine of sola scriptura (a doctrine which is itself not to be found articulated in Scripture). In fact, I would argue that while Scripture is an essential and invaluable part of God's revelation it is a terrible mistake to regard it as the whole of revelation. Scripture doesn't even regard itself as the whole of revelation.

So, as for your question why there is belief in Purgatory, I would say (as I pretty much already have) that it speaks to pressing theological questions and that for many the doctrine is recommended by their canon of Scripture.

And we know that nothing impure can enter God's presence. So what happens between death and entering God's presence that purifies us?
Jesus' sacrifice is what makes us pure. Unfortunately, after the Holy Spirit works faith in our hearts, we do not immediately go to our heavenly abode, but must live out our lives here on earth, still caught in the sinful condition that exists here, where, like Luther said, we are at the same time saints and sinners. Our good works, done for the glory of God and the good of our fellowmankind, are only our thank-yous to God for His marvelous work in us; works do nothing to grease the wheels of our salvation, because Jesus' work was all-sufficient. There is no "between death and heaven"; our reward is immediate, thanks to Jesus.

Because we are still sinful humans and still living in this sinful world, all our good works are tainted with sin. "All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags," Isaiah reminds us. Therefore, they cannot be counted for our salvation. Only the perfect, all-sufficient righteousness that Jesus accomplished for us with His perfect life, will be enough for our salvation. This comes to us by grace, imputed to us through faith, with faith being a gift of God (Eph. 2:8-9). Saving faith is not dependent upon the number of works one does, but is a gift of the Holy Spirit through the Gospel.

It is so very difficult, isn't it, to accept a free gift from someone and not feel obligated to pay for it in some way. We often hear, "Nothing is free in this life" or "Behind every free gift, there are strings attached somehow." Reminds me of my mother-in-law. Every Christmas, she would assess the value of the gifts she had been lovingly given and then give each person pay-back money. What an insult, a declaration that our gifts were not good enough.

I would bake her a surprise batch of cookies that I knew she liked, and she would hand me a $50 bill in "payment." When I refused the money, she found ways to slip it into my purse or coat pocket or even to one of my children, so that I found it after I got home. (She stopped doing that when I told her I donate the money to the local cat shelter. She hates cats.) She tried to pay me for the cards and jokes I sent to her husband while he recovered from a bypass. His thank-yous and speedy recovery were sufficient for me (and the cat shelter benefitted again). That's all God expects in return, our thank-yous to Him when His love flows through us to others.

In the same way, I consider purgatory insulting to Christ for his unconditional and all-sufficient love, and His perfect grace, indefensible to the message of the Gospel, and even mercenary.

What makes you think that Jesus' sacrifice makes us "pure"?

Yes, indeed, Catholics are taught (and should believe) that salvation is a GIFT. But a gift can be accepted or rejected.

As for the idea of what we call "purgatory" being insulting: That comment is gratuitous at best. Scripture does not discount it but instead hints at it (like Scripture does about so many things).

If a good Christin commits a serious sin then gets hit by a truck and dies before he can fully (verbally or mentally... with full mental capabilities intact) repent - do you think he goes to Hell?

What makes you think that Jesus' sacrifice makes us "pure"?
Because it does. Because the Bible says so. His sacrifice has restored us as children of the Father. No further work is needed.


If a good Christin commits a serious sin then gets hit by a truck and dies before he can fully (verbally or mentally... with full mental capabilities intact) repent - do you think he goes to Hell?
Hell, hmmm, that's another subject to discuss.

No, that person goes to heaven. And we all will not have repented of certain sins, known and unknown, sins of omission and commission, before we die. Do Christians live on the brink of the abyss and are always in danger of hellfire?

What makes you think that Jesus' sacrifice makes us "pure"?Try Eph 1:7 for starters

Yes, indeed, Catholics are taught (and should believe) that salvation is a GIFT. But a gift can be accepted or rejected. So true. However there are many that profess to be a "christian" on Sunday and live like the devil Monday thru Saturday. They are not true Christians are they? Those are the sort of people who go through the motions to make themselves look good just like the Pharisees did in Jesus's days. Those people will still stand before the throne of God, but will find their names not in the book of life. They will be the ones who will complain of all the good works they have done, and God will turn a deaf ear on.

As for the idea of what we call "purgatory" being insulting: That comment is gratuitous at best. Scripture does not discount it but instead hints at it (like Scripture does about so many things).Please site chapter and verse where Jesus ever taught anything like this?

If a good Christin commits a serious sin then gets hit by a truck and dies before he can fully (verbally or mentally...with full mental capabilities intact) repent - do you think he goes to Hell?
What or who says this person is a "good" christian? A Christian who has professed that Jesus Christ is Lord and savior will make to to heaven. He will though have to stand before the throne of God on judgment day to answer for his sin(s). On that day he will be judged and if his name is written in the book of life, PHP 4:3,REV 3:5,REV17:8,REV 20:15,REV 21:27 he will enter into the kingdom of God. If his name is not found in the book, he will go to hell along with all the others that have rejected Christ. No matter how many people pray for his soul.

The Bible does not say so. Where do you think it does?

I already know where you think it does :)

So what, then, does one need to keep this "purity" that you mention? And is it "guaranteed" forever? If so, where in the bible do you find that?

... but alas, we digress far from your initial "question" - which we can all see now was not really a "question" but an invitation to debate. That's why it was moved it from the question board where you initially posted it :)

No problem! :) I and many others here like a good debate :)

I predict that you should recognize that at some point - which may be now: The real lover of debate will recognize when it's time to say "We'll just have to agree to disagree" ;)

I predict that you should recognize that at some point - which may be now: The real lover of debate will recognize when it's time to say "We'll just have to agree to disagree" ;)
I love you to pieces, RickJ, and I knew we already agreed to disagree. I started this thread to keep another one from being shut down. Should I start another purgatory one and word it differently? How about one on hell? Something safe like one on cats?

I'm not sure. I'll let you know after I down a couple of cold ones to wash down my Friday in Lent Fish 'n' Chips :)

Ooooh hoooo, now maybe we should start yet another thread on whether it's OK for Christians to consume alcoholic beverages! :p

Oh forget it, I'm sure there's already a thread or three about that ;) :p

I'm not sure. I'll let you know after I down a couple of cold ones to wash down my Friday in Lent Fish 'n' Chips :)

ooooh hoooo, now maybe we should start yet another thread on whether it's ok for Christians to consume alcoholic beverages! :p
We German Lutherans love our beer when we play euchre or pinochle. Hmmm, that reminds me... gotta put a few into the 'frig for later. (Just don't ask me to dance... verboten, or at least used to be.)

The Bible does not say so. Where do you think it does?

I ;)
Come on Rick you said this earlier "As for the idea of what we call "purgatory" being insulting: That comment is gratuitous at best. Scripture does not discount it but instead hints at it (like Scripture does about so many things)."

All I am asking is a simple where do you find this sort of thing even hinted at in the Bible?

Euchre? You play Euchre?

DOG-GONE! I didn't know people in Illinois know Euchre.

And I have a little Deutsch too:

Ich kann Euchre spielen und kann kaltes Bier die ganze Nacht trinken!

http://www.lunarforums.com/Smileys/default/beer.gif

:p:p

Come on Rick you said this earlier "As for the idea of what we call "purgatory" being insulting: That comment is gratuitous at best. Scripture does not discount it but instead hints at it (like Scripture does about so many things)."

All I am asking is a simple where do you find this sort of thing even hinted at in the Bible?

Read my first reply in this thread.

Others here have rightly pointed out that Christ is man's intercessor functioning as the high priest sacrificing himself as compensation for our sins. (Cf. Heb 5: 7; 7: 25). “He is both priest and "victim of expiation" for the sins of the whole world (cf. 1 Jn 2: 2).” Being presented to God upon on death we are called to “cleanse ourselves from all defilement of the flesh and of the spirit, perfecting sanctification in the fear of God.”

Joe,

Let me offer a few lines more of (1 John) that speaks further on this.. This first verse defines being perfected in love for God. That those who keep His Word are seen with passion and love towards God. Those that believe in walking in Christ, and being holy has he is holy.

1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, {{{{in him verily is the love of God perfected}}}} hereby know we that we are in him.

1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1 John 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

1 John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.



In our worldly endeavors, we come into contact with sin. Sin is a moral evil that stains the soul, and afflicts the heart. But, those of us who merit entering into a communion with God are blessed to with the fullness of eternal life are united with the Church Suffering and the Church Triumphant through purgatory's purification. JoeT


2:20 of 1 John references that those which are God's children have the Holy Spirit anointing which is smeared on them. (1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.)

1 Peter 1:22-23 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

I find this way of putting it to be more than a little counterintuitive and even a bit tendentious (by design, perhaps?). The question isn't whether Christ's sacrifice was "good enough"; I can't imagine anyone who'd claim that it wasn't. The question is, rather, what is God's plan for salvation and how does that play itself out?



It plays itself out His Way.. Life with God or death by satan.. Lay down your ways, and follow Christ.

( Matthew 10:15) (Luke 18:17)

Take your hand and place it into Gods hand... Doing the will of God the Father, as Christ has shown the way..

Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Passion and Love for God

From the beginning shown by God, the love and hope that we hold will rest upon Christ. It is the greatness in fellowship found in Christian faith, and the establish ways we can follow in Christ by His fulfillment of The Word of God. In evidence of Christ doing the Will of His Father, we too much do the Will of God. We must do what is pleasing in God's eye, in obedience to the act in righteousness. Confess and repent our iniquity, and transgressions in all our sin unto God. Confess and turn from contempt and foolish ways. For Christ showed us the Way... Moreover confess Christ among men, and His ways. (Matthew 10:32) Confess that God raised Christ from the dead (Romans 10:9) Confess that Christ is Lord in the glory of God the Father (Phl 2:11) Confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelled in Him and he in God (1 John 4:15)

Hebrews 6:1-2 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

~as a child of God I shall not fall away.... for God is with me

Euchre? You play Euchre?

DOG-GONE! I didn't know people in Illinois know Euchre.

And I have a little Deutsch too:

Ich kann Euchre spielen und kann kaltes Bier die ganze Nacht trinken!!

http://www.lunarforums.com/Smileys/default/beer.gif

:p:pGerman Lutherans who love Euchre live everywhere. My mom is one and is from Idaho. My dad is one and was from Illinois. Big Euchre area is in western NY where we used to live, NW of Rochester. My dates with farm boys always included Euchre (or checking out the cornfields at midnight).

Joe,

Let me offer a few lines more of (1 John) that speaks further on this.. This first verse defines being perfected in love for God. That those who keep His Word are seen with passion and love towards God. Those that believe in walking in Christ, and being holy has he is holy.

1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, {{{{in him verily is the love of God perfected}}}} hereby know we that we are in him.

1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1 John 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

1 John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

2:20 of 1 John references that those which are God's children have the Holy Spirit anointing which is smeared on them. (1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.)

1 Peter 1:22-23 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

You're a great Christian, so let me ask a real stupid question, just humor me. Are you perfect in every way; not just perfect, rather are you immaculate, spotless, sinless, without fault, in every way? Simple question, it doesn't take much soul searching for an answer; respond, 'yes' or 'no'.

JoeT

Wondergirl ,
If you do not confess your sins after they take place they will NOT be forgiven.
The Bible says that you must confess and ask for forgiveness.

That sounds very arminian - but regardless, that is a different topic and has nothing to do with the claims that somehow we can pay the rpice in part for our own sins by suffering in purgatory.

What makes you think that Jesus' sacrifice makes us "pure"?

Titus 2:11-14
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
NKJV

Titus 2:11-14
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
NKJV


"that he might redeem us from all iniquity and might cleanse to himself a people acceptable."

Gee, seems you made a case for purgatory.

"that he might redeem us from all iniquity and might cleanse to himself a people acceptable."

Gee, seems you made a case for purgatory.

Don't see how. It see that He does the cleansing - we don't cleanse ourselves through suffering.

"that he might redeem us from all iniquity and might cleanse to himself a people acceptable."

Gee, seems you made a case for purgatory.
Not at all. The cleansing is by Jesus so God will find us acceptable again.

Heb. 1:3 And [Jesus] is the radiance of [God's] glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

Eph. 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

sndbay,
Believe as you want to but the existence of Purgatory is also indicated in Holy Scripture as I have alread posted here.
Fred

sndbay,
Believe as you want to but the existance of Purgatory is also indicated in Holy Scripture as I have alread posted here.
Fred

Fred,

You claim that purgatory is in scripture has been refuted.

Tj3,
That is just your opinion.
My opinion is the opposite of that.
I say no you have not.
You attempted to but faild.
Fred

Tj3,
That is just your opinion.
My opinion is the opposite of that.
I say no you have not.
You attempted to but faild.
Fred
In the prayer thread, you said Christian saints on earth (the Bible calls us that) pray for each other. If we are saints on earth, what need have we of purgatory?

Not at all. The cleansing is by Jesus so God will find us acceptable again.

Heb. 1:3 And [Jesus] is the radiance of [God's] glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

Eph. 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Yes cleansing (purging of sin) is accomplished by Jesus in a state of being, i.e. purgatory. Such a state of being can occur at anytime, it doesn't always need to be in some spiritual afterworld.

I don't get it; you're saying the words in the verses at the same time denying the meaning.

Since you're a Saint on Earth, jumor me and answer thisl stupid question. Are you perfect in every way; not just perfect, rather are you immaculate, spotless, sinless, without fault, in every way? Simple question, it doesn't take much soul searching for an answer; respond, 'yes' or 'no'.

JoeT

Joe,
I answer that for myself.
NO!!
I have never been that clean and when I die I hope I'll be cleaner than I am now but I still will not be perfectly clean for my human tendency to sin will still remain.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Yes cleansing (purging of sin) is accomplished by Jesus in a state of being, i.e. purgatory.

Heb 1:3-4
3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
NKJV

Note that He Himself purged our sins (past tense) and then sat down at the right hand of the Father. When did He sit down?

Heb 10:12-14
12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.
NKJV

He sat down when He sacrificed Himself on the cross. That was when the purging took place.

Yes cleansing (purging of sin) is accomplished by Jesus in a state of being, i.e. purgatory. Such a state of being can occur at anytime, it doesn't always need to be in some spiritual afterworld.

I don't get it; you're saying the words in the verses at the same time denying the meaning.

Since you're a Saint on Earth, jumor me and answer thisl stupid question. Are you perfect in every way; not just perfect, rather are you immaculate, spotless, sinless, without fault, in every way? Simple question, it doesn't take much soul searching for an answer; respond, 'yes' or 'no'.

JoeT
Yes. Jesus has cleansed me from all unrighteousness in the eyes of His Father. The price for my sin has been paid once and for all. It is a gift to me and entitles me to heaven.

Tj3,
The forgiveness of sins is one thing, the cleansing of our human tendency to sin in another.
That one is taken care of in Purgatory.
You'll see that when your there.

Tj3,
The forgiveness of sins is one thing, the cleansing of our human tendency to sin in another.
That one is taken care of in Purgatory.
You'll see that when your there.
Jesus did the cleansing part already too.

Tj3,
The forgiveness of sins is one thing, the cleansing of our human tendency to sin in another.

Really? Where is the scriptural support for that.

Note what scripture says:

Heb 10:13-15
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
NKJV

How do you think that you can improve upon the perfection of Jesus?


That one is taken care of in Purgatory.
You'll see that when your there.

As with Paul, I will never see purgatory. I will be present with the Lord:

2 Cor 5:8
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
NKJV

You're a great Christian, so let me ask a real stupid question, just humor me. Are you perfect in every way; not just perfect, rather are you immaculate, spotless, sinless, without fault, in every way? Simple question, it doesn't take much soul searching for an answer; respond, 'yes' or 'no'.

JoeT

Somehow you do not see what it is that God tells you.. and I pray in love for all mankind, that if it is God's will, all might see His Way, and His will to be done

1 Peter 1:22-23 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

I believe, and I am thankful unto God for being born again. And by God hand God has increased and granted this to me. And I have received a soul purified in desire to obeying the truth through the Holy Spirit that guides me.. I follow and trust The Word of God. I follow by no other name, then as a child of God. I confess in prayer, with love and faith unseen, knowing that God is with me. I confess by a heart of conviction, in the desire to live and be all that God created me to be. Knowing that it is His hand of strength, and His will is to be done..

Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

And I say before the world confess love of God and not things of this world. Confess the thankfulness in all that Our Father's love has given. Confess Christ Jesus as the begotten Son of God, and walk in Him.

Moreover confess Christ among men, and His ways. (Matthew 10:32)

Confess that God raised Christ from the dead (Romans 10:9)

Confess that Christ is Lord in the glory of God the Father (Phl 2:11)

Confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelled in Him and he in God (1 John 4:15)

This is the Truth!
1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Amen Amen

Tj3,
The forgiveness of sins is one thing, the cleansing of our human tendency to sin in another.
That one is taken care of in Purgatory.
You'll see that when your there.

I Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

I Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.


Are you born again and ready to obey God through the Holy Spirit?

Somehow you do not see what it is that God tells you.. and I pray in love for all mankind, that if it is God's will, all might see His Way, and His will to be done

1 Peter 1:22-23 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

I believe, and I am thankful unto God for being born again. And by God hand God has increased and granted this to me. And I have received a soul purified in desire to obeying the truth through the Holy Spirit that guides me.. I follow and trust The Word of God. I follow by no other name, then as a child of God. I confess in prayer, with love and faith unseen, knowing that God is with me. I confess by a heart of conviction, in the desire to live and be all that God created me to be. Knowing that it is His hand of strength, and His will is to be done..

Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

And I say before the world confess love of God and not things of this world. Confess the thankfulness in all that Our Father's love has given. Confess Christ Jesus as the begotten Son of God, and walk in Him.

Moreover confess Christ among men, and His ways. (Matthew 10:32)

Confess that God raised Christ from the dead (Romans 10:9)

Confess that Christ is Lord in the glory of God the Father (Phl 2:11)

Confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelled in Him and he in God (1 John 4:15)

This is the Truth!
1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Amen Amen

But you didn't answer the question; "Are you perfect in every way; not just perfect, rather are you immaculate, spotless, sinless, without fault, in every way? Simple question, it doesn’t take much soul searching for an answer; respond, ‘yes’ or ‘no’"

sndbay,
Yes I am, but I still sin from time to time as I think everyone does.
It is our human nature of this world.
It is our tendency to sin that must be purified.
Fred

Yes. Jesus has cleansed me from all unrighteousness in the eyes of His Father. The price for my sin has been paid once and for all. It is a gift to me and entitles me to heaven.

Then you're not a sinner like the rest of us? You're a Saint? Why do I have a hard time believing this?

Then you're not a sinner like the rest of us? You're a Saint? Why do I have a hard time believing this?

Joe,

Those who are saved through Christ (i.e. we are saints), though we have sinned, have the righteousness of Christ imputed to us:

Rom 4:20-25
20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore "it was accounted to him for righteousness." 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
NKJV

As a result, it is not our righteousness which purifies and cleanses us, but it is the righteousness of Christ imputed to us. As a result, there is nothing more that could be done to further purify us.

Joe,
I also have a hard time believing that.
The bible says we are all sinners.
That I believe.
Fred

Then you're not a sinner like the rest of us? You're a Saint? Why do I have a hard time believing this?
From gotquestions.org --

The word saint comes from the Greek word "hagios" which means “consecrated to God, holy, sacred, pious." ... Scripturally speaking, the saints are the body of Christ, Christians, the church. All Christians are considered saints. All Christian are saints…and at the same time are called to be saints. 1 Corinthians 1:2 states it clearly, “To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy…” The words “sanctified” and “holy” come from the same Greek root as the word that is commonly translated “saints.” Christians are saints by virtue of their connection with Jesus Christ. Christians are called to be saints, to increasingly allow their daily life to more closely match their position in Christ. This is the Biblical description and calling of the saints....In the Bible, everyone who has received Jesus Christ by faith is a saint.

Wondergirl
Yes but that still did not answer the question if you were a sinner and perfectly clean.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

from gotquestions.org --

The word saint comes from the Greek word "hagios" which means “consecrated to God, holy, sacred, pious." ... Scripturally speaking, the saints are the body of Christ, Christians, the church. All Christians are considered saints. All Christian are saints…and at the same time are called to be saints. 1 Corinthians 1:2 states it clearly, “To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy…” The words “sanctified” and “holy” come from the same Greek root as the word that is commonly translated “saints.” Christians are saints by virtue of their connection with Jesus Christ. Christians are called to be saints, to increasingly allow their daily life to more closely match their position in Christ. This is the Biblical description and calling of the saints....In the Bible, everyone who has received Jesus Christ by faith is a saint.

Your playing with words, come on now, I know you don't think you're sinless.

Wondergirl
Yes but that still did not answer the question if you were a sinner and perfectly clean.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I'll answer it. I am a sinner saved by the grace of God, through the blood shed on my behalf on the cross, and as a result, I have the righteousness of Christ imputed to me - therefore I am perfectly clean, because the righteousness of Christ is perfect righteousness.

The entire point of purgatory is to purify as Priests of Moses’ Tabernacle cleansed themselves and their sacrifices.

“In following the Gospel exhortation to be perfect like the heavenly Father (cf. Mt 5: 48) during our earthly life, we are called to grow in love, to be sound and flawless before God the Father "at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints" (1 Thes 3: 12f.). Moreover, we are invited to "cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit" (2 Cor 7: 1; cf. 1 Jn 3: 3), because the encounter with God requires absolute purity. Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected.” Pope John Paul II


JoeT

The entire point of purgatory is to purify as Priests of Moses’ Tabernacle cleansed themselves and their sacrifices.

However, the point that we are making is that scripture says that Jesus did that on the cross, and does not support the doctrine of purgatory.

Ok, I know people will flip about this,but wouldn't Jessus be a sinner? On account he willingly gave his life, commite suicide, for our sins?

Really, he killed himself, in direstly of course, but it's no different then some one walking in front of a bus.

Isn't suicide "wrong" or a "sin"? Just wanted to know.

Ok, I know people will flip about this,but wouldn't Jessus be a sinner? On account he willingly gave his life, commite suicide, for our sins?

No, he did not commit suicide. He was willing to die but did not take His own life.


Really, he killed himself, in direstly of course, but it's no different then some one walking in front of a bus.

A better analogy would be of a man volunteering to be a soldier in a war, knowing that he faces a likelihood of death, or someone who dies protecting their family.

However, the point that we are making is that scripture says that Jesus did that on the cross, and does not support the doctrine of purgatory.

Yes, He PAID the price. And he will cleanse the soul in purgatory so that no sin enters heaven and so that we can be presented to the Father flawless.

Yes, He PAID the price. And he will cleanse the soul in purgatory so that no sin enters heaven and so that we can be presented to the Father flawless.

That is what you say, but not what scripture says:

1 John 1:7-8
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
NKJV

The blood shed on the cross cleanses us, not suffering in purgatory.

Joe,
You are right.
The original question was "Why is there a belief in Purgatory" and that has been answered here several ways.
There are a great many others Catholic and more that believe in the existence of Purgatory.
Frankly I'm glad there there is such a place to make us completely pure so that we can dwell in God's heavenly kingdom.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Frankly I'm glad there there is such a place to make us completely pure so that we can dwell in God's heavenly kingdom.


I thanks God that He said that when we are absent from the body, we are present with the Lord, and that we are cleansed and purified through Jesus sacrifice on the cross. There is no need for any Christian to spend time in a fiery punishment.

Tj3,
Who said that Purgatory is a place of fire.
Our sinful nature is cleaned AS THOUGH it was done by fire.
The people mentioned in the bible who were in purgatory were not described as though they were burning.

Fair enough. So Jessus died protecting us?

Wouldn't it make sense that we are all innocent then? If GOD truly knows us all and Knows ALL, then he knows why we all did what we did, why we think, feel, act and generally behave the way we do. Especailly since he created us! Haha, so he knows what we will do, how we will do it, and there for forgave us all before we ever even existed.

I mean really, "he" (I use this term loosely, I don't think GOD is of gender, nor of entity, more of everything that is. Like the force in star wars. Key word "LIKE") made us, knowing everything we'd ever do. There for, he created us to do what is is we do, no matter what we "choose". So, do we have free will? Or are we a product of "his" creation and therefor subject to do what "he" created us for?

Why have a pergatory, and where, what is pergatory?

Tj3,
Who said that Purgatory is a place of fire.
Our sinful nature is cleaned AS THOUGH it was done by fire.

Scripture says that our sinful nature is cleansed by the blood on the cross. If you want to keep telling us this, why not post some scriptural validation?

Fair enough. So Jessus died protecting us?

He died on the cross paying the price for our sins.


Wouldn't it make sense that we are all innocent then? If GOD truly knows us all and Knows ALL, then he knows why we all did what we did, why we think, feel, act and generally behave the way we do. Especailly since he created us! Haha, so he knows what we will do, how we will do it, and there for forgave us all before we ever even existed.

God gave us freewill. When you are given a gift, you have the option to accept it, or reject it. The same is true here. Jesus paid the price, and you have the choice to accept it, or reject it.


Why have a pergatory, and where, what is pergatory?

There is no purgatory.

He died on the cross paying the price for our sins.



God gave us freewill. When you are given a gift, you have the option to accept it, or reject it. The same is true here. Jesus paid the price, and you have the choice to accept it, or reject it.



There is no purgatory.

You may have missed my point, I know it's my choice to accept or decline my "free will", but if we were created by GOD, and he knew what we'd do to start with, then is it really free will, if he knew?

He made us who we are, everything that we do is dictated by our brains no? SOme of us can resist behaving in some way or another, but what about some one with say a mental illness, like Bipolar? GOD made that person with Bipolar, and now they behave irradically, and possibly kill some one, while on a manic high. Not even realising what they are doing... Tell me then, is that person to be blamed for their sin?

Tj3,
It has been posted here on this thread. I believe that Joe was one of the posters of those references.
The one about fire was 1 Cor 3:15. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
That's one of the several places in the bible that speak of the existence of Purgatory.
A persons bad works are clean up but the person will be saved.
There are several posts here that speak of what purgatory is like and some folks that are or have been there.

Tj3,
It has been posted here on this thread. I believe that Joe was one of the posters of those references.
The one about fire was 1 Cor 3:15. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
That's one of the several places in the bible that speak of the existence of Purgatory.
A persons bad works are clean up but the person will be saved.
There are several posts here that speak of what purgatory is like and some folks that are or have been there.

But all things are open to interpretation, on account that we have a free will and all...

Nestorian.
Even though God know all past, present and future He does not interfere with our free will.
Yes He knows what our future will be, but we do not.
It us we who decides what our future will be not God,
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Nestorian.
Even though God know all past, present and future He does not interfere with our free will.
Yes He knows what our future will be, but we do not.
It us we who decides what our future will be not God,
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Are you sure about that? Because I'm almost sure, that some one born with a disability, or that gets cancer, or develops some kind of mental illness due to genetics is not a personal prefrence, nor choice...

We make choices baised upon what we are, we have needs, and baised upon those needs we react. Choice thoery, by William Glasser.

1)Physical needs, such as water, food, shelter, etc.

2)Belonging/ love, such as being apart of some kind of social circle/ family/ loved ones.

3)Freedom/ responsibility, self explanitory.

4)Power/ significants, once again self explainitory.

5)FUN, self explainitory.

These are the needs that generally have to be met for us to enjoy life. IF GOD created us, then a man/ women who is mentaly ill and thinks they see demons in people and kills countless people, as I'm sure this has happened before though I can not recall any specifics, to protect us and themselves from these "demons"; then tell me, where is the free will.

To say that they could logically say, well deomons don't exsist, or that it's not right to hurt people, is a little lame. That would be like me telling you that a big freeking truck coming at you full speed won't hurt you, it's not real. You'd be blindfolded, and staning in front of it. But the truck would past you harmlessly by, if you didn't move, if you did, you'd have a fifty/ fifty chance of survival. See my point. You don't know, but GOD did, does, Will. GOD would have had to KNown what you'd do when you'd do it, then created you to act just as you do. We are not able to simply ignore our biological funtions, that takes training, and time.

I don't think GOD knows, knew all. Other wise that would violate the idea of Free will. No? Unless you have some secret power to manipulate the world around you that we don't know about, then I'm sure you are like most and are a product of both Nature, and nurture. Biological responses, and cognitive figured responses. Eh?

I'm not entirely sure we have free will, if we need to react in specific ways to sufice our feelings of anxiety or fear so we can feel comfortable... Think about it, you're going to defend your belief for what ever reason, but you feel a need to do so, for what ever that reason is.

“Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them do not. Miss them do not. Attachment leads to jealously. The shadow of greed, that is.”-yoda
Forgive me if it seems odd, but how is this any different form your beliefs in GOD? Pergatory, heaven, hell, and earth..?

Tj3,
It has been posted here on this thread. I believe that Joe was one of the posters of those references.
The one about fire was 1 Cor 3:15. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

1 Cor 3:11-16
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
NKJV

This refers to works. Works done for Christ will remain, but works done for other reason will not survive. This has nothing to do with purgatory. It has to do with works, not men being destroyed.


That's one of the several places in the bible that speak of the existence of Purgatory.

Where are they?


A persons bad works are clean up but the person will be saved.
There are several posts here that speak of what purgatory is like and some folks that are or have been there.

Fred, you are changing you claim about purgatory again. Previously you said that it purified or cleansed the person's sin nature. Now you say that it burns up the person's work's. Not only does this not have anything to say about purgatory, you are being inconsistent in your argument as to what purgatory is.

But you didn't answer the question; "Are you perfect in every way; not just perfect, rather are you immaculate, spotless, sinless, without fault, in every way? Simple question, it doesn't take much soul searching for an answer; respond, 'yes' or 'no'"

Those are man's words which led to deception. I have offered God's promise and His Words of Truth.

It is not that I avoid the question, but I avoid the doubt that lies within the question, and in all that Christ flesh has offers us.

I can tell you again, being born again purified of the soul through the Holy Spirit in love for The Word which is Christ.


Here is His Fire..

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:


And this word fire goes on to reference his power to purge the floor where God resides within us.

17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

Do you Believe His Words?

Are you baptized as The Word has shown, and as Christ ensampled?

Many are not... they have followed man

You may have missed my point, i know it's my choice to accept or decline my "free will", but if we were created by GOD, and he knew what we'd do to start with, then is it really free will, if he knew?

I saw it, and tried to address it in my last post. The point is that foreknowledge does not mean that God has removed your freewill. Even though He knew, you still have the ability to do as you will.


He made us who we are, everything that we do is dictated by our brains no? SOme of us can resist behaving in some way or another, but what about some one with say a mental illness, like Bipolar? GOD made that person with Bipolar, and now they behave irradically, and possibly kill some one, while on a manic high. Not even realising what they are doing...

Mental illness and other problems that vary from the perfection that god created come from man's sin, and his exercise of freewill. That is not God's doing. On the other hand, what is God's doing is to provide a way to be freed by the enslavement to sin and to be freed from the impact of sin, which is eternity in hell.

Tj3,
It has been posted here on this thread. I believe that Joe was one of the posters of those references.
The one about fire was 1 Cor 3:15. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

That fire is done in baptism... That fire remains within us that are baptized.... He that suffers loss, is to suffer in fullfillment just as Christ did. And yes ye are saved, and by perservance of fire.. The fire which burns all that comes by the sins of flesh, where the Holy Spirit resides within you.

Those that believe in Christ can be baptized.... suffer to fulfillment of righteousness as Christ did. WE drink of His blood that was shed for us in rememberance of all that is possible in Christ.


~in Christ

Matthew 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. (Also Luke 3:9)

Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.


If one can not believe that all things are possible in Christ Jesus .... they are left with fire which is found to destroy satan's deception

Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth...

Then you are left with satan... in torment as shown by the scripture written

. And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Those are man's words which led to deception. I have offered God's promise and His Words of Truth.

Not just any man's words. It was the words of our former Pope John Paul II.


It is not that I avoid the question, but I avoid the doubt that lies within the question, and in all that Christ flesh has offers us.

So, if you're unwilling to answer this simple question, then I guess I can take your previous comments as little more than debate rhetoric? Apparently you don't intend to answer any questions candidly, rather skillfully like a good propagandist?


I can tell you again, being born again purified of the soul through the Holy Spirit in love for The Word which is Christ.

I can tell you that it's once saved, always saved is deceiving and not normally found. Everybody, from day to day, falls short of the Glory of God.



Here is His Fire..

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

And this word fire goes on to reference his power to purge the floor where God resides within us.


17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

But, do these verses contend you will be perfect, without blemish, for the rest of your journey of life?

There's that word again, 'purge'.


Do you Believe His Words?

Yes, as taught by the Magisterium in harmony with Tradition and Scripture.


Are you baptized as The Word has shown, and as Christ ensampled?

Yes, I was baptized as an infant.


Many are not... they have followed man

Agreed many don't, and those like Jan Hus, John Wycliffe, Martin Luther, and others, will find that they built their foundations on a crust of fragipan, not Christ.

JoeT

Not just any man’s words. It was the words of our former Pope John Paul II.

That may mean something in your denomination, but that does not mean anything to me.

I saw it, and tried to address it in my last post. The point is that foreknowledge does not mean that God has removed your freewill. Even though He knew, you still have the ability to do as you will.



Mental illness and other problems that vary from the perfection that god created come from man's sin, and his exercise of freewill. That is not God's doing. On the other hand, what is God's doing is to provide a way to be freed by the enslavement to sin and to be freed from the impact of sin, which is eternity in hell.

Are you saying that GOD, who created me, you and all. Who knows all, simply made us to live our lives our way?

But he created us with needs!! Five as far as choice thoery goes, and that is something any one could see. Other wise, why do people need to talk to one aother, why even be apart of society, the very society that is changing our planet! We feel the need of greed, and sad to say, but we are all subject to these needs, some times we can resist, but very few indeed. I mean really how smart is it to cut down as many trees as we do, dig up as many mines as we do for raw matierials? We NEED those things for our PHYSICAL SURVIVAL, the most basic of needs and still we continue to live as we do. You and I are no exception. Oh yes, GOD created me, with free will knowing what I'd do even before I'd do it, he had a repsonsibility to cahnge alter things so that "he" wouldn't know what the out come would be, other wise, GOD created me to do exactly as "HE" for saw. No, I don't think that GOD could have , known everything, and created me with freewill. That is a responsibility GOD would have to take on "his" own shoulders. I'm not saying I'm innocent, but I'm saying, that GOD created me to be everything I am. SO I have no free will, unless he didn't know everything... Because to know is to take responsibility.

"Knowledge is power, with poewr comes great responsibility, With responsibility comes Freedom." - Various sources.

Mental illness came from Man's Sin's? Are you sure about that? So then tell me, where does bipolar come from, what sin does one have to commit for one to get that kind of illness? GOD knew we'd sin, so created punichments? If you say that it's a thing of the devil, then why doesn't GOD correct his faults,and get rid of the devil? So we have to make a choice, but he knows what we'll choose any way.

Are you saying that GOD, who created me, you and all. Who knows all, simply made us to live our lives our way?
You are describing and judging God by human standards. He is so much more than you give Him credit for. He is not you; He is God -- beyond our understanding.

Yes, He gave us free will. We are not His puppets. We can choose to do good or we can choose to do ill.

Mental illness came from Man's Sin's?? Are you sure about that? So then tell me, where does bipolar come from, what sin does one have to commit for one to get that kind of illness? GOD knew we'd sin, so created punichments?? If you say that it's a thing of the devil, then why doesn't GOD correct his faults,and get rid of the devil?? So we have to make a choice, but he knows what we'll choose any way.
When God gave man a choice (cf. the Garden of Eden story), man chose to do what benefitted himself even though it was the wrong choice. According to Gen. 3, the world then fell into a sinful condition with weeds in the garden and pain in childbirth and mental/physical illness. Temporal death was the sentence for all earthly creatures. But there will be a happy ending to the story.

Are you saying that GOD, who created me, you and all. Who knows all, simply made us to live our lives our way?

Nope. I neither said nor implied that. God gave us a set of rules which were for our benefit, in much the same way that you parents told you what to do for your own benefit.


Mental illness came from Man's Sin's?

What I said was "Mental illness and other problems that vary from the perfection that god created come from man's sin, and his exercise of freewill."

So, yes, God created this world in perfection, but through sin, we have seen deterioration. This is not referring to sa speciofic sin causes a specific condition, but rather nature itself suffers as a result of sin starting in the garden.


GOD knew we'd sin, so created punichments? If you say that it's a thing of the devil, then why doesn't GOD correct his faults,and get rid of the devil? So we have to make a choice, but he knows what we'll choose any way.

So are you saying that you would prefer to be a robot with no choices, no freewill?

Not just any man's words. It was the words of our former Pope John Paul II.

And did he expect just a yes or no answer?




So, if you're unwilling to answer this simple question, then I guess I can take your previous comments as little more than debate rhetoric? Apparently you don't intend to answer any questions candidly, rather skillfully like a good propagandist?


Joe this was my answer.. It is bold print..... This will be the third time I confirm the question with the same answer.

"I can tell you again, being born again purified of the soul through the Holy Spirit in love for The Word which is Christ."



I can tell you that it's once saved, always saved is deceiving and not normally found. Everybody, from day to day, falls short of the Glory of God.

Everyday and hourly we are all tempted.. confessing sin known and unknown is done through prayer to Our Father... It was taught to us by Christ in the prayer he told us to pray to the Father...

Our Father, who art in heaven,hallowed be thy name; thy kingdom come; thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us; and lead us not into temptation,but deliver us from it's evil.
For thy is the kingdom, the power, and the glory forever, and ever. Amen


2 Sa 7:27 For thou, O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, hast revealed to thy servant, saying, I will build thee an house: therefore hath thy servant found in his heart to pray this prayer unto thee.

And now, O Lord GOD, thou art that God, and thy words be true, and thou hast promised this goodness unto thy servant: Therefore now let it please thee to bless the house of thy servant, that it may continue for ever before thee: for thou, O Lord GOD, hast spoken it: and with thy blessing let the house of thy servant be blessed forever. Amen


Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Joe, I believe in my heart of conviction in the love of God and His will. And I trust as his servant , he does hear and answer my prayer... therefore perfection is granted by God as Matthew 5:48 tells us

Note: The idea of once saved always saved is not something I have ever said.. because scripture tells us it can happen,, That is why prayer is imporant, and why we are to pray for His strength to be the house that He can use as a faithful servant unto love for God.
Hebrew 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

2 Peter 3:7 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.



But, do these verses contend you will be perfect, without blemish, for the rest of your journey of life.

That is the desire of love for God within my heart. To rest in Christ and all that is possible through Him.



There's that word again, 'purge'.


Example:

We acknowledge that Paul was not a god, and we can also acknowledge God's hand that does fans the fire to keep us safe. ..Paul was known first to be a sinner by flesh, yet kept free from sin unto righteousness. And let's not forget that God gives the angels charge over us that follow in obedience.

Acts 28: 3-5 And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand. And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.

Joe,
satan is that viper that will attempt to attach himself to us. We must shake him off into the fire that God fans to purify us. We do suffer but are saved..

Christ died for our sins -- ALL of our sins past, present, and future here on earth. Why then do Catholic Christians believe a place like purgatory is necessary?

We are liberated by Christ's love but we can still choose to reject his love or respond half-heartedly. When we die not many of us are saintly enough to go to heaven. We need to atone for our lack of love and neglect of those less fortunate than ourselves. The Greek idea of catharsis, i.e. purification by suffering, is an antidote to the modern tendency to insulate ourselves from all discomfort and hardship. It foreshadows belief in purgatory. A person who has never suffered has not fully developed and cannot be united to others. Otherwise Christ would not have allowed himself to be crucified...

We are liberated by Christ's love but we can still choose to reject his love or respond half-heartedly. When we die not many of us are saintly enough to go to heaven. We need to atone for our lack of love and neglect of those less fortunate than ourselves. The Greek idea of catharsis, i.e. purification by suffering, is an antidote to the modern tendency to insulate ourselves from all discomfort and hardship. It foreshadows belief in purgatory. A person who has never suffered has not fully developed and cannot be united to others. Otherwise Christ would not have allowed himself to be crucified...

This suggests that it is by our merit or our suffering that we qualify ourselves for heaven. That is un-scriptural. The only hope that we have for heaven is through have Christ's righteousness imputed to us:

Rom 4:22-25
22 And therefore "it was accounted to him for righteousness." 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
NKJV

This suggests that it is by our merit or our suffering that we qualify ourselves for heaven. That is un-scriptural.
It's really, really difficult for Christians to believe that salvation is a free gift, isn't it. Human nature screams in protest and feels obliged to find a way to participate. After all, we've been told by our parents since we were toddlers that there's nothing free in this life...

It's really, really difficult for Christians to believe that salvation is a free gift, isn't it. Human nature screams in protest and feels obliged to find a way to participate. After all, we've been told by our parents since we were toddlers that there's nothing free in this life.........

That is so true.

Nope. I neither said nor implied that. God gave us a set of rules which were for our benefit, in much the same way that you parents told you what to do for your own benefit.



What I said was "Mental illness and other problems that vary from the perfection that god created come from man's sin, and his exercise of freewill."

So, yes, God created this world in perfection, but through sin, we have seen deterioration. This is not referring to sa speciofic sin causes a specific condition, but rather nature itself suffers as a result of sin starting in the garden.



So are you saying that you would prefer to be a robot with no choices, no freewill?

Yes a set of rules to follow, that isn't freedom. That is restraint. Its like when the slaves worked hard, "We wont kill you or tourcher you if you work hard", the "Slave owners" may have said. God says, follow me, pray to me, and do as I commant and you won't be tourmented, tourchered and forsaken to hell/ pergatory Etc. That's not very Free to mee. I think GOD is different thank my luckey stars, but really you seem to be thinking that free will is simply being able to make a choice between, pain and rebellion, or pleasure and compliance.

Mental illness is caused by a person sinning? Yes or No...

To be honest I question perfection, and wonder if it's not perfect as it is... Yes, life and all that is, is as GOD saw it to be come, so then it much be perfect no? Haha. All things must return to whence is came. It is the nature of things, we maybe speeding it up, but really we are here and we are of natural beings of the earth, for we are aprat of it, and it apart of us. We breath it's air, it breaths our CO2, we drink it's H2O and leave acidic urine. We eat of it's flesh, and leave... (we'll skip that on, haha.) OUR MOTHER EARTH, and we still don't take care of it, rather sad, but with out this revolation we'd not understand the very value of that very idea... Be thankful for what you have, what you are, and that you are, because you never know when it will be your time to go back to the earth and give back your contrabution to the earth.

I don't think that what you are talking about is "free will", freedom of choice maybe, but free will is being able to choose what you want with out consequence... I do not think there is such a thing thogh, for that is for a place of "Perfection", or heaven. As you may call it.

Also, we are pretty much very complex robots. Think about it, our brains work off firing electrical signals from one neuron to the next sending messages, information, and commands. We truly are robots, with very complex electrical systems. Eh? Think about it, our brain tells us what to feel, when to feel it, what to remember, what's imporant, what to believe, and how to act. Facianting, like a mechine, but with oddly made components.

Have you ever heard of the Anunnaki, some say they were the first civilization of man. And they mapped out the stars/ constelations. I've also heard they are the lost civilisation know as atlantis.

Yes a set of rules to follow, that isn't freedom.
No one has to follow them.

Mental illness is caused by a person sinning? Yes or No...
No, not because that particular person did a particular sin.

To be honest I question perfection, and wonder if it's not perfect as it is...
You live in this world and hear about abused children and animal cruelty and wars and people murdering other people, and think that's perfection?

as GOD saw it to be come
But not as He made it to be. We screwed it up.

I don't think that what you are talking about is "free will", freedom of choice maybe, but free will is being able to choose what you want with out consequence...
Yup, that's what happens here on earth, no consequence or punishment for making a wrong choice (unless you get caught by another human).

Also, we are pretty much very complex robots.
You really don't believe that, do you? If we are robots, we would be limited in what we can do. We aren't. The human brain has enabled us to fly like the birds and wipe out entire cities with the bomb and invent computers that started a huge room-sized things but now can fit into your pocket. My grandparents would be knocked over to know about cell phones, the Internet, a black US president. As far as emotions or personalities or even looks go, no two people are alike. We are robots? I don't think so.

Yes a set of rules to follow, that isn't freedom.

That is what children say when they are told things for their own protection. They feel that they are being restricted, unaware that rules designed to keep us safe are in fact enhancing our freedom. If a person fails to follow the rules of the road and ends up seriously disability or dead, that is more restrictive on freedom.



Mental illness is caused by a person sinning? Yes or No...

I agree with Wondergirl, and I think that my last response made that clear. It is also possible for people to do things which will cause mental illness directly (i.e. taking drugs), but that is not what I was referring to.


Have you ever heard of the Anunnaki, some say they were the first civilization of man. And they mapped out the stars/ constelations. I've also heard they are the lost civilisation know as atlantis.

It is a story about false gods which was made up. There is no evidence for such a civilization in reality.

Nestorian,
God's all knowing does not interfere with our free will.
We can live our lives as we want to, following rules or not.
Yes God knows how we will turn out but we do not.
Our job in this life is to live it the best we can.
Some do that some do it half heartedly and others do it as well as possible.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

It's really, really difficult for Christians to believe that salvation is a free gift, isn't it. Human nature screams in protest and feels obliged to find a way to participate. After all, we've been told by our parents since we were toddlers that there's nothing free in this life.........

Salvation is not a free gift without works and faith... We are offered the joy of His salvation when we follow. Then His salvation becomes our salvation. God is the Rock of our salvation.
(Psalms 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. )

Job 13:6 He also shall be my salvation: for an hypocrite shall not come before him.


Christ died to free us from being slaves to sin... He set us Free to do Our Father's will in righteousness.. We are now His servants unto the will of God our Father..

If we do not do the will of God we reap affliction for going our own ways. That is why God says to fear Him and Love Him. As a child that would fear correction from wrong doing we should rejoice .

Psalms 119:75 know, O LORD, that thy judgments are right, and that thou in faithfulness hast afflicted me.

Psalms 119: 107-109 I am afflicted very much: quicken me, O LORD, according unto thy word. Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments. My soul is continually in my hand: yet do I not forget thy law.

Psalms 119:144 The righteousness of thy testimonies is everlasting: give me understanding, and I shall live. (follow Christ as you are a bought servant to do the Will of God)

That is why Faith without Works is dead...

It's really, really difficult for Christians to believe that salvation is a free gift, isn't it. Human nature screams in protest and feels obliged to find a way to participate. After all, we've been told by our parents since we were toddlers that there's nothing free in this life.........

Oh, I don't think it's any psychological incapacity. I think it's an honest disagreement with your understanding of Scripture. People like me look at the following verses (this isn't a comprehensive list by a long shot) and think that you're mistaken:

Mt.7.21
Mt.24.10-20
Mt.25.31-46
Lk.10.25-28
Jn.5.29
Rom.2.6-7
Gal.6.7-9
1Cor.6.9
1Cor.13.2-3
Jas.1.22
Jas.2.24
Phil.2.12-13
Heb.5.9
1Jn.2.3-7

Morever, people like me look at the pericopes that are cited in defense of your view and think that you've misunderstood a bunch of them (especially those that are drawn from Romans).

I think that Luther's work was profoundly interesting, and I take it very seriously, as I think you know. I'm not in sympathy with those who think it is devoid of merit. But I also think that E.P. Sanders (in Paul and Palestinian Judaism) and Wayne Meeks (in The First Urban Christians) have pretty well devastated his interpretation of Romans.

That is what children say when they are told things for their own protection. They feel that they are being restricted, unaware that rules designed to keep us safe are in fact enhancing our freedom. If a person fails to follow the rules of the road and ends up seriously disability or dead, that is more restrictive on freedom.



I agree with Wondergirl, and I think that my last response made that clear. It is also possible for people to do things which will cause mental illness directly (i.e. taking drugs), but that is not what i was referring to.



It is a story about false gods which was made up. There is no evidence for such a civilization in reality.

Yes I get that, but to punish a child for doing wrong is such a harsh way, as to hit them. I'd have to say when I see some one hit a child I almost consider walking up to them and just swatting them for it, upside the heaad. Then asking them how retarded they are. YOU DON"T HIT CHILDREN, so why send them to hell or pergatory?

Oh we choose that for our selves? Thats like putting a child in a room, lockin the door, and saying if you do as I tell you I will feed you, and give you water, if not, i will beat you. I do not think you or I will agree on this. I don't believe GOD is uncaring. Also, GOD can not love unconditionally, if there are conditions as to wether or not he lets you have a privliage of being in heaven with him. Seems a little conditional to me, but thats just, me. I guess that is why there is to each thier own, because when you see a green apple, i see and apple that is reflecting the colour green. The apple has no colour.

As for mental illness, yes some do cause mental illness, but what about people who are born with it, who dont do drugs?? I later did do drugs, but after my irradic behavious started. I was told i was depressed, I know now that was totally off. I am bipolar, and was when i was younger going though episodes of deep depression, then elated euphoria. Then i got messed up and started partying, drinking, and smoking pot. Good think i quite all that non-sense. I realised how slef stupidifying it really is. Not all mental illness is caused by a sin. My grandma killed her self because of her mental illness, and I just happen to get a another form of it. I"m not sure how it's linked to biological connections of generation to generation, but I do know that, most of my family on that side is affected with some kind of mental illness. Not because we did drugs, or that, but because it's in out genetic make up, possibly making us more pron to it I guess, I'm not a scientist.
So, what about that, am I a horrible perosn for when I was off my rocker when I was a child of 13, and thoguht that people desereved nothing but death? Oh yeah, I know psychotic right? But that's what was messing with my head, I was compleately messed up. Some people don't get it as bad, others worse, how can you assume that mental illness is a choice? People so drugs for different reasons, some to escape, some because it's "fun", others because they want to die in the first place... You idea is cold and I find it heartless, missguided, missunderstanding, and well sorry but foolish. If I can forgive them why can't GOD? Jessus would, and he died for our sins.

Acctually, it's believed by many, even a few of my more religious friends, agree that it is a possibility. Did you know that the Egyptions had batteries? Yeah, possibly used to go into the deep underground passagways of the pyramids, to give energy to lights, like light bulbs. I find that idea facinating. THe possibilities are endless. They have found mechanical devices that are said to have mapped out the stars, and their positions. I believe they siad it was like an astrological device. Used to tell some one what their traits are and what not. JUst facinating. I think there was a nother civilization called, Sumerians, Very intersting stuff, who talked of these beings coming down from the heavens and such. Super interesing indeed. At any rate I really don't think it matters what I think, nor what you think, it only matters that we are...

No one has to follow them.

No, not because that particular person did a particular sin.

You live in this world and hear about abused children and animal cruelty and wars and people murdering other people, and think that's perfection?

But not as He made it to be. We screwed it up.

Yup, that's what happens here on earth, no consequence or punishment for making a wrong choice (unless you get caught by another human).

You really don't believe that, do you? If we are robots, we would be limited in what we can do. We aren't. The human brain has enabled us to fly like the birds and wipe out entire cities with the bomb and invent computers that started a huge room-sized things but now can fit into your pocket. My grandparents would be knocked over to know about cell phones, the Internet, a black US president. As far as emotions or personalities or even looks go, no two people are alike. We are robots? I don't think so.


You sound like fun wondergirl, I will be back to comment, and I'll clerify things for you. But just so you know, one person's view of a robot is not the same as another's. Also, I find it interesting that you would mention bombs and killing... Also, you don't seem to believe people can feel guilty do you?

Perhaps I shall share with you my personal beliefs.? :rolleyes: later.

Yes I get that, but to punish a child for doing wrong is such a harsh way, as to hit them. I'd have to say when I see some one hit a child I almost consider walking up to them and just swatting them for it, upside the heaad.

First thing to realize is that most of the consequences that we face are of our own doing. God has given us rules for our own good, and when we choose to stray outside of those rules, we find out why. It is like if a child's parents tell them not to play around the stove, and they end up getting burned. Was that the cruelty of the parents that burned them? Or was it the child's disobedience.


Then asking them how retarded they are. YOU DON'T HIT CHILDREN, so why send them to hell or pergatory?

First, purgatory does not exist, so let's put that question to sleep right now. Second hell is real, but was not created for men to go to, but men choose hell over God. Hell was prepared for Satan and His demons:

Matt 25:40-41
41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
NKJV


As for mental illness, yes some do cause mental illness, but what about people who are born with it, who don't do drugs?

We've been through that a few times already. Sickness, birth defects, mental illness, old age, etc. all these things have resulted from sin. It is a corruption of the perfect creation that came from God. I was clear when I stated that some situation may occur from direct action on the part of the person (i.e. drugs), but I was not presenting that as the primary cause. Please go back and reread.

Also, you don't seem to believe people can feel guilty do you?

Of course, people can feel guilty. In fact, most people do when they are thinking of or actually breaking the law or doing something against what would be considered the moral and right. Conscience was something God instilled in humans when He first created them. Conscience is what usually keeps us well-behaved. (Freud called it the super ego.) Unfortunately, humans are also capable of ignoring their conscience (as they exercise their free will) -- that is, despite their conscience screaming at them, they continue to do that bad thing.

Because sin has caused a corruption of human nature and a universal depravity/death, individuals sometimes seem to be born without (or at least sometime in childhood develop emotionally and spiriturally without) a conscience. Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, Clyde Barrow and Bonnie Parker, Edward Gein, Ted Kaczynski, and Diane Downs are a few of the famous ones. Did any of those feel guilty? Case histories and court reports say no, or at least no regret was ever expressed. Will God look closely at them on Judgment Day to determine if their lack of conscience and subsequent crimes were willful and deliberate or were simply because of a mental illness (corruption of human nature) that they had no control over? I think as I write this, if I ever saw a need for purgatory, this would be it, to rehab amoral individuals.

First thing to realize is that most of the consequences that we face are of our own doing. God has given us rules for our own good, and when we choose to stray outside of those rules, we find out why. It is like if a child's parents tell them not to play around the stove, and they end up getting burned. Was that the cruelty of the parents that burned them? Or was it the child's disobedience.



First, purgatory does not exist, so let's put that question to sleep right now. Second hell is real, but was not created for men to go to, but men choose hell over God. Hell was prepared for Satan and His demons:

Matt 25:40-41
41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
NKJV

We've been through that a few times already. Sickness, birth defects, mental illness, old age, etc., all these things have resulted from sin. It is a corruption of the perfect creation that came from God. I was clear when I stated that some situation may occur from direct action on the part of the person (i.e. drugs), but I was not presenting that as the primary cause. Please go back and reread.


Everything is open to interpretation. No, GOD made us to need things. That is in direct violation of my right to freedom. No? Imagine everything you value being taken from you... All that you love and care for, gone. Then what? YOu have no money, can't get work, no one cares about you, you have to steal to get food, or mug people to survive. Tell me, how is that Freedom, either steel or die of starvation? No you can't grow food you have no land, no seeds, nothing. A pair of old pants and a ragged old shirt. That's it, and shoes, I guess. I spose we could choose to die, but that is suicide. No? P.S. No social supports either, that's just cheating.
P.s. The child has the need to understand, and a natural curiosity.


So why in the name of GOD would we ever, go to hell, we are not satan nor demons? Mind you I've heard of them, and I've hear a story that convinces me that Jessus has bin here since his crusifiction. Hey, believe what you want, but all things are subject to interpretation, and are only of relative importance.
And just so you know, I think that Hell is only a word. The place is much worse, though I do not believe GOD to send us there, or let us got there for any reason. GOD your idea of GOD any way, in my mind, would be just as understanding as me, and forgiving. My idea is well, more complex. It could simply be my relation ship with GOD is different from that of yours. Niether of us is right nor wrong.
I question if there is a pergatory, but then my view of the after life/ existence is far different from what most would believe. Does it make me worng to believe differntly than you, even if I'm more true to your "morals" and have a bunch more that make me even more caring loving, understanding, and accepting than you? I just don't think GOD would as of us what is in the Bible, some yes, but not all. (THIS is a hypothetical question, as I do not really know where I stand on much matters, and where you stand on others.)

"Sickness, birth defects, mental illness, old age, etc., all these things have resulted from sin. It is a corruption of the perfect creation that came from God." - You

But GOD created us to be everything that we are? Everything we say think and do, is his making, he made us the way we are. Didn't he? We are supposed to have these things happen, other wise they wouldn't. He saw it and knew, and created us to be just that way. He took the responsibility when he knew all. That is his burden, is it not? We carry it, he watches it unfold. No?

As I've said, everything is open to interpretaion, clearification is not needed, but rather an idepth look at why you think it is so clear, for I do not believe as you do, or if I do, it's under a different name. I do believe all things are one, there for some one calles it GOD, another Science, GODS, our mother earth, the force, the source, Life, essence, creation/ existence and so on. All pieces of the same puzzle, but in reality, all are the same.

Very compelling and interesting, Wondergirl, I am curious about where your insights came from.

I do have to point out that you mentioned GOD having to inspect one upon judgment day, but um... Doesn't God already know? He shouldn't need to think, inspect, or ponder, he is all knowing. The choice was made before we even existed, on account that he created us, and Knew all. See how free will is stripped from us?

I don't actually believe that, but on the relative idea that GOD knew all to start with, and so ceated us with free will? Come on he had, has, and will have responsibility on himself for everything we do. I don't mean to sound snide or rude, not at all, but it sounds too human. I can't see GOD being like that. I mean if I can forgive people for what they are doing to the earth (I haven't yet, I still feel our race should burn in hell, but I'm hoping I'll learn to forgive myself and all people.) by changing it so fast, and killing animals, forests, the children who must carry our burdens, and so on. I do, for some odd reason, I understand why individuals do things, and I simply forgive them. I just don't like groups of people. I'll have to learn that one as I go I spose.

What I'm saying is how could GOD not forgive those people when I can? That would be rather well, I don't know what. A paradox I spose. GOD is spose to love all Unconditionally, and I do not, but I forgive all, even hitler. For what ever reasons I forgive them, they are my own. NO I'm not nuts, though I am bipolar. Still, I'm a regular person just like you, and I have needs just like you. I'll leave it at that for now...

Believe me the wrabit hole goes much deeper.

P.s. The child has the need to understand, and a natural curiosity.



A child learns to understand the ways of life, and in their curiousity can fall and pump their head. Does the parent look upon them to see if they need help? If the child is hurt and crying, does the parent go to them out of love? Does the parent pick them up and hold them, and give all that they can in aid of their fall? Does the child learn anything by the fall?

Now think of this: does the parent turn away from the child that was in tears? Does the parent feel the fall was the child's fault, and leave them in thier own accountability to what they of free will did?

The facts of this can be compared to God's way and His love... I believe Our Father in heaven is more loving then what man of this world can ever be. So the result of which option is best, Our Father in doing for the small child, would do what is for the child. I hope we agree....

Now let's take it to a different level.... We are no longer a small child, and we fall yet again in our own free will choice. Are we accountable to that choice. Do we pick ourselves up and learn from the mistake. Are we capable of doing it alone?

Again Our Father looks upon the situation, and He determines what aid is best. But it is evident we do fall... we do make mistakes... and we will be accountable... we should learn from that fall...

The facts of this compares to life no matter what we carry as baggage. Some will have more in burdens then others, yet the strength of what they can carry, and when they need help is lovingly looked upon by Our Father.

By no means can you pridefully neglect your own accountability.. When you are weak and have given into the wrong ways, it is you that have elected to do so. To place the burden upon someone else is irresponsible.

When things get tough, we can look for Our Father to help.. Yet as a responsible and loving adult we bow down in prayer when we feel the heavy burden.. If your heart of conviction is seen by the Father as prideful, and wanting not to bow down, not wanting to be accountable to your own choice ... that is trouble upon trouble... satan has you following him.

Until you give your heart to God as He has shown His love in doing for you, then it is again the choice you make...

Understand that a huge price was paid to free us from sin... As a slave being bought to freedom in following God, and being His servant.. To go His way to righteousness...

If you of choice want to remain a slave to sin, it's your accountable choice. (Free will)

WOW!
I would never have believed that this question could or would spread to 13 pages. I sure hope WG got the answer she was looking for. I certainly did. I now understand that there are many many people confused, taking the teachings of man instead of the teachings of God as gospel. At this point all I can conclude is that many of us that have posted here need to go back with an open mind and read and understand what the Bible actually has to say on this subject.

A child learns to understand the ways of life, and in their curiousity can fall and pump their head. Does the parent look upon them to see if they need help? If the child is hurt and crying, does the parent go to them out of love? Does the parent pick them up and hold them, and give all that they can in aid of their fall? Does the child learn anything by the fall?

Now think of this: does the parent turn away from the child that was in tears? Does the parent feel the fall was the child's fault, and leave them in thier own accountability to what they of free will did?

The facts of this can be compared to God's way and His love... I believe Our Father in heaven is more loving then what man of this world can ever be. So the result of which option is best, Our Father in doing for the small child, would do what is for the child. I hope we agree....

Now let's take it to a different level.... We are no longer a small child, and we fall yet again in our own free will choice. Are we accountable to that choice. Do we pick ourselves up and learn from the mistake. Are we capable of doing it alone?

Again Our Father looks upon the situation, and He determines what aid is best. But it is evident we do fall... we do make mistakes... and we will be accountable... we should learn from that fall...

The facts of this compares to life no matter what we carry as baggage. Some will have more in burdens then others, yet the strength of what they can carry, and when they need help is lovingly looked upon by Our Father.

By no means can you pridefully neglect your own accountability.. When you are weak and have given into the wrong ways, it is you that have elected to do so. To place the burden upon someone else is irresponsible.

When things get tough, we can look for Our Father to help.. Yet as a responsible and loving adult we bow down in prayer when we feel the heavy burden.. If your heart of conviction is seen by the Father as prideful, and wanting not to bow down, not wanting to be accountable to your own choice ... that is trouble upon trouble... satan has you following him.

Until you give your heart to God as He has shown His love in doing for you, then it is again the choice you make...

Understand that a huge price was paid to free us from sin... As a slave being bought to freedom in following God, and being His servant.. To go His way to righteousness...

If you of choice want to remain a slave to sin, it's your accountable choice. (Free will)

Hmm, you are very compelling as well, very intresting.

I spose that all depends on on the parent. Then again, it also depends on what you consider a parent. Some people are just parents in title only, not by their actions.:(

We are all accountable for one another as well. The ten comandments, and such, are are written by a man, as is the bible, no matter what you can not deny that. Even the stone tablits came from the Mo man himself no? So, what if he made a mistake, or altered them, it would have bin of his own free will to decide so, so to have faith in the bible you must then have faith in Man. Not just any, those of the past and with the need to survive, doing what it takes to live. Very questionable, you can tell me about pride, but I do not have pride, for that would require ignorance. I know that your beliefs are possibilities, and just as valid as mine, can you say that same?
My relationship with GOD is far different, for I know I'm one with GOD, and the univers, question is, what am I spose to be doing, or my purpose? Yes, the earth is my mother, and it pains me to see us change her so selfishly, and ignorently. It is possible that we are killing our future, and that is mass murder. Say what you want, but that is taking responsibility as well. Feel free to ignore that, but it doenst' change he fact that it is a possibility...

Also, good and bad, right and worng are subject to opinions. Look at religion it's self, see how it's changed over the years, see how our society has changed, by any means fortune and fame are a thing of Greed, and a sin. Having more then you need is a thing of greed, and a sin. Yes I believe this. I am a siner, and I do not go to church, but church is just a word meaning a building where people worship "GOD". But If GOD is with me, why go to some building where I can't feel GOD? Why not go for a walk in the sun, and be one with GOD? Do unto others as I'd have done unto me. Yes, that is how I Judge myself, and I find I'm more cruel then most can be to me. I'm sure if I can find a way to frgive myself, then I will beable to stand tall and not proud, but wiser.

So, what are you accountable for? THe enviromnet, animals, the objects you buy, the people who starve on the streets, the children who live abusively with their so called "parents"? Yes, if you think that I don't hold myself accountable then you are lying to yourself, and may want to take responsibility for such thoughts. I simply want to open your minds to the possibilites, because I feel I Responsible for at least showing what is out there, how it is connected and so on. Learning it. I don't see GOD as showing us things through a book, that would be in violation of letting us do things of our own free will, because that means GOD interfeared with our journy. But it is possible. Who knows.

Yes GOD's love is conditional, I am a ware of that idea.

Yes Jessus is a very inspirational man.

GOD wouldn't want servents. How many kill and go to war in GODs name? Tisk tisk, then they say we are right you are wrong, when they are really believing one and the same idea. Odd I know, but it's what I've come to understand.

Define a slave to sin? Because, I can see everyone as a slave to sin, it's biologically put there, in your religion, by GOD, he created us? Haha, no you don't see the logic there? What about the Human Needs?

I'm sorry if I sound rude, but I'm rather up front, and unaffraid to tred on uncharted or even sesitive ground. I do not mean any thing in offence, or aggression.

Peace and kindness be with you.

"love is my ally, life is my goal,
Respect is my accomplishment." - ME Yes I made that up. This is my mantra I spose.

Hmm, you are very compelling as well, very intresting.

I spose that all depends on on the parent. Then again, it also depends on what you consider a parent. Some people are just parents in title only, not by thier actions.:(

We are all accountable for one another as well. The ten comandments, and such, are are writen by a man, as is the the bible, no matter what you can not deny that. Even the stone tablits came from the Mo man him self no? So, what if he made a mistake, or altered them, it would have bin of his own free will to decide so, so to have faith in the bible you must then have faith in Man. Not just any, those of the past and with the need to survive, doing what it takes to live. Very questionable, you can tell me about pride, but i do not have pride, for that would require ignorence. I know that your beliefs are possiblities, and just as valid as mine, can you say that same??

Please go back and reread Dut 10: 1thru 5 and you will see that the tablets although huned out my Moses were written by God


My relationship with GOD is far different, for i know I'm one with GOD, and the univers, question is, what am I spose to be doing, or my purpose? Yes, the earth is my mother, and it pains me to see us change her so selfishly, and ignorently. It is possible that we are killing our future, and that is mass murder. Say what you want, but that is taking responsiblity as well. Feel free to ignore that, but it doenst' change he fact that it is a possibility...

What form of earthism are you preaching here? No where that I read in scriptures is there any mention that the earth is our mother, father or anything else.


Also, good and bad, right and worng are subject to opinions. Look at religion it's self, see how it's changed over the years, see how our society has changed, by any means fortune and fame are a thing of Greed, and a sin. Having more then you need is a thing of greed, and a sin. Yes i believe this. I am a siner, and I do not go to church, but church is just a word meaning a building where people worship "GOD". but If GOD is with me, why go to some building where i can't feel GOD?? why not go for a walk in the sun, and be one with GOD? Do unto others as I'd have done unto me. Yes, that is how i Judge myself, and i find i'm more cruel then most can be to me. I'm sure if i can find a way to frgive myself, then I will beable to stand tall and not proud, but wiser.

There is no "subject to opinions" in the bible. It is very clear on what is right and what is wrong. What is pleasing to god and what is displeasing to Him.


So, what are you accountable for? THe enviromnet, animals, the objects you buy, the people who starve on the streets, the children who live abusively with thier so called "parents"? yes, if you think that i don't hold myself accountable then you are lying to your self, and may want to take responsibility for such thoughts. I simply want to open your minds to the possibilites, because I feel i Responsible for at least showing what is out there, how it is connected and so on. Learning it. I don't see GOD as showing us things through a book, that would be in violation of letting us do things of our own free will, because that means GOD interfeared with our journy. But it is possible. Who knows.

Do you when you go out and buy a new car leave the owners manual in the glove compartment and ignore it? Do you fail to do the routine maintenance as required by that owners manual? If you do ignore the requirement and that car breaks to you insist that the dealership repair it under warranty even though you have not done what is required to maintain it properly?


Yes GOD's love is conditional, i am a ware of that idea.

Yes Jessus is a very inspirational man.

GOD wouldn't want servents. How many kill and go to war in GODs name?? Tisk tisk, then they say we are right you are wrong, when they are really believing one and the same idea. Odd i know, but it's what i've come to understand.

Those that have practiced religion have done many horrible things in the name of God. So what? That is not Christianity, that is religion. There is a big difference. Those people will stand before the throne of God on judgment day and answer for their actions.


Define a slave to sin?? Because, I can see everyone as a slave to sin, it's biologically put there, in your religion, by GOD, he created us? haha, no you don't see the logic there? what about the Human Needs?

I'm sorry if i sound rude, but i'm rather up front, and unaffraid to tred on uncharted or even sesitive ground. I do not mean any thing in offence, or agression.

Peace and kindness be with you.

"love is my ally, life is my goal,
Respect is my accomplishment." - ME Yes i made that up. This is my mantra i spose.

Rude? No, just uninformed. God made man perfect in his image. Man through his sin has corrupted this world and made it what we see before us today.
If you were to think of the inspired word of God (the bible) as an owners manual for your life it is much easier to understand what it says and how to interpretate it.

Christ died for our sins -- ALL of our sins past, present, and future here on earth. Why then do Catholic Christians believe a place like purgatory is necessary?

There is no place called purgatory written in The Word

Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

We were set free from sin... Christ paid the price... and offered us as servants to righteousness

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

This verse says " if ", as in " if " you choose not to. (If a man abide not in me)

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Again should an individual choose to call on the name of the Lord

1 Peter 1:14-15 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

obedience children.. those who do the will of God and walk in righhteousness as Christ did.

1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Be ye holy for I am holy.....



WOW!!
I would never have believed that this question could or would spread to 13 pages. I sure hope WG got the answer she was looking for. I certainly did.

That is in the hands of God, and given to whom He reveals truth unto...



I now understand that there are many many people confused, taking the teachings of man instead of the teachings of God as gospel. At this point all I can conclude is that many of us that have posted here need to go back with an open mind and read and understand what the Bible actually has to say on this subject.

The discernment from right and wrong can be permitted by God when an individual is willing to hear His voice. (John 10:27).. . and when we in prayer to the Father, asking in the name of Jesus, Give therefore thy servant an understanding heart to discern between good and bad. All glory and honour unto God our Father. Amen

450donn, I'm impressed once again some one has come up with the same anser different words an others will still argue againts you though they are of "the same, or similar faith". That depends on how you look at it, and interpret the information. Like I said, everything is subject to interpretation.

So, GOD writes on stones, the bible is a thing of man, papper, and corruption. "Man through his sin has corrupted this world and made it what we see before us today." - You
Yes the bible is apart of our world is it not? "Translated" by how many people... Yes many questions in that, and it's bin copied by how many different texts, and it's different for how many? I can't even count how many different christianities there are. (probable because one is more than enough.) Each claims, "We are right, we will be the ones who go to GOD." Well, OK so every one goes to GOD in their own way, right? Perhaps this is so... But then why is every one, wait I know the answer to that, claiming other's are wrong? This is the need for POWER/ SIGNIFICANTS... To be "right" is to hold sway or influence over things. Indeed. I don't know if I'm right or wrong, but I know I'm willing to learn. That's not to say I'm ignorent in the sense that I won't learn about your religion, or I will and I simply won't accept it; but rather I will accept it's a possibility, but there are many more possibilities. If I'm wrong, then can GOD blame me for not trusting my fellow man to tell me what GOD said? I hope not, that just seems childish, and selfish. Indeed. Which I've considered GOD like that once but it's very unlikely.

Hmm, you can say that the bible is clear, but you are you and I am me. We see through different thoughts, and ideas, cultural differences, and such. If you think about it, all those natives and such that didn't even know "GOD" nor the bible, did they go to hell? How does GOD judge them? What about people who simply are told different, like you said, subverted from GOD's perfect creation to what we are now. A child is told to had a different religion, not openly but by simply being told that way is "wrong", or a different race, etc. They grow to dislike these "differnt" people and so refuse to help them unless they do something inreturn/ change their ways. Yet they pray for forgivness for their sins, but they leave out the things they do like, believing that others are less than they are because of what they believe, or look like. A product of how we were raised... Hmmm. Is it right to claim your religion to be the "ONE" to GOD? Pride = ignorance does it not? To say that this is all the there is, is to deny us our "freedom". Our freedom to be with GOD in the relationship that we hold with GOD. IS it right to let our race cut down entire forests and kill many many animals, for greedy ends? (Personally, I can not see GOD saying we have dominion over the animals/ environment, but rather the responsibility to look after it, keep the balance to what ever end. But we don't.) How many people suffer because we live in big houses, have fancy cars, buy usless items (excesively), and kill animals for clothing/ food in cruel ways when we do NOT need to.

I'm sorry, but my family and I are quite poor, and have never owned a vehicle newer than ten years old. We never had wanrty, or manuals for our vehicles. So I'm not sure I understand what you mean, it doesn't really mean much to me. Sorry...

Christianity is a religion. "Religion: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs." - Dictionary online. Yes, christianity and Judism, JW, Greek Mythology, The Roman Chathlic Chuch, Wiccan, even the Justic system are all religious ideas. Even Jedism is a religion.
Yes yes, we will all be judged, wait no we wont, we're already judged. GOD knows all silly. We are laready going to where ever we are going, it's our predetermined destiny. I don't think what the bible says about Free will is accurate, It is contradictory. If GOD didn't know then it would make sense, but then agian i guess we aren'y spose to make sence of it, but just follow it.
Don't worry, my idea of free will is rather odd. Because freedom, implies nothing holds you back, no concience, no fear, no physical restraints, and such. "Freedom: exemption from external control, interference, regulation, etc.; the power to determine action without restraint.; the absence of or release from ties, obligations, etc.; the power to exercise choice and make decisions without constraint from within or without; autonomy; self-determination."- Dictionary online. However, we all know better. We know that that kind of freedom doesn't really exsist, because that would be Chaos, so to have order we need something to balance it all out... This is where your idea of responsibility comes in, the ten commandments, to accept what you do will affect the world around you, thus affecting you. So these rules are what you follow to keep order, and still be relatively free. It is a matter of balance, and unfortuantely we are not very wise to the way of this balance. No, i do not believe what the bible has to say on that matter, for it conflicts in far too many ways with who I am, and what the people around me do. I am responsible for my actions however, i do not always know what is best, and i will not always be "perfect". (unless of course we are perfect as we are, because this moment is the only one and what we are doing is the only thing that will ever happen in that moment. So, it was ment to be, it is ment to be, and it forever will be ment to be. Understand?) I beleive GOD if "he" (I dont' believe GOD has a gender, not sure GOD is a being like we are.) does judge us, would know better our reasons, and then go through things till we either understand the pain, or till we right what we never intended to wrong. Personally i'm looking for a way to forgive myself, for all i've done, do, and will do. But its hard, and takes time i spose. I'm sure i'll find it though.

The bible is just that, but its not the only one, and it's not entirely ment for me. It's like I said, "A book of myths, and fables." Through such things we learn. Just like any moral, or value we have. We remember things that are more emotionally connected to us, so we make stories to explain them. I hope you don't take offence to that, but that's all the bible is to me, a book of stories ment to give us guidence. There are many books of such teachings, I have a Buddhist book, and spiritual book, a scientific (nuerological) book, Psychological book, Age of Fable book, a bible, Jedi Book (yes i do get a lot of very true info from this book. after all, the ideas in that book are from other books/ religions.), and any number of people who have gave me wisdom.

"Love is my ally, life is my Goal,
and Respect is my accomplishment." - Me

That is my code, it's very multi-purposful and universal. The meaning changes with each new situation, but some times it's the same. I've heard many people try to interpret it, and many great ideas, some very deep, but it will always be ever cahnging for me.

That is my code; it's very multi-purposeful and universal. The meaning changes with each new situation, but sometimes it's the same.


I'm curious as to what you might make of a statement such as this?

God and Truth are convertible; St. Thomas says, “Whence it follows not only that truth is in Him, but that He is truth itself, and the sovereign and first truth. “ Summa Prima Q, 15 a5”

This statement is alluding to the fact that there is an absolute and infallible truth. How then do you explain that there is one set of Divine Laws for me and a different one for you?

From my point of view, it would seem that your 'code' is one in which faith depends on a predetermined outcome dependent on a mode egocentric reasoning. That is to say, under the guise of freedom of will, it would seem that it is suggested that the answers to cosmic questions are found in one's own subjective reasoning, which I understand as relativism. How do you rationalize that what is truth for one individual is not truth for another? Do we say heaven and earth where created by God to follow His immutable laws of nature. Then too wouldn't we say that Divine Laws equally immutable; not sugject or our relative or subjective reasoning influenced by our own desires? How do you explain that natural law is immutable, absolute, and as suggested Divine Law is subjective? Couldn't we say that both sets of Laws, natural and Divine, are absolute?

JoeT

JoeT,
For me God is truth and all that He created originally is conforming to that truth including all the laws God set in motion.
But discerning what that is can be difficult for often we see things differently than others and even differently from one time to another.
As an example people determining God's truth in Holy Scripture depends on their interpretation of what The Word says. Thus we have over 30,000 denominations and who knows how many who call themselves non-denominational.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

JoeT,
For me God is truth and all that He created originally is conforming to that truth including all the laws God set in motion.
But discerning what that is can be difficult for often we see things differently than others and even differently from one time to another.
As an example people determining God's truth in Holy Scripture depends on their interpretation of what The Word says. Thus we have over 30,000 denominations and who knows how many who call themselves non-denominational.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

That is why scripture says that we are simply to accept what it says and not interpret it.

Tj3,
That's interesting.
I often see you interpreting Scripture sometime literally and sometimes not.

Tj3,
That's interesting.
I often see you interpreting Scripture sometime literally and sometimes not.

Fred, making false accusations about others is no way to enhance your claims.

Tj3,
I believe what I see from you and I have NEVER made a false accusation to or for you.
So quit making that claim.
I speak the truth.
Fred

Tj3,
I believe what I see from you and I have NEVER made a false accusation to or for you.
Sp quit making that claim.
I speak the truth.
Fred

Fred, since you so often don't know, or claim not to know when you are making false accusations, I suggest that you not say anything about anyone unless it is complimentary.

Would both of you please go to your rooms for ten minutes to cool off?

Wondergirl,
I am in my room and I'm already cool.
Thanks any way.
Fred

Wondergirl,
I am in my room and I'm already cool.
Thanks any way.
Fred
:) I'm glad, Fred. You don't need Internet stress.

Begone internet stress. I demand internet stress to be gone.

Begone internet stress. I demand internet stress to be gone.
Did you bring us ice cream cones? Chocolate chip cookies and milk? Hershey's kisses?

Thanks for the goodies,
Fred

Wondergirl,

I brought Cake, white chedder popcorn and some Milk. How does that sound. Sounds yummy to me. I had all three of them today...

We need to keep Fred calm. Let's give him cake and milk first. What happened to our other friend, Tom?

Maybe he went to his room to cool off as you suggested.
LOL
Fred

Jesushelper76 ,
That sounds good to me.
Yum Yum
Fred